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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome everybody to the end of the Year Spectacular. The end of the year in what? Why the end of the year 2025 and ABA. We're joined by an all star cast tonight. We've got Bea Arthur and who else? All the other Golden Girls and of course your favorite NBA podcast hosts from aba, Inside Track and Behavioral Observations. Let's go around the horn. So because, because the Golden Girls haven't arrived yet. So who is actually here at the moment? Well, there's me, Robert Perry Cruz. Hello. Who else is here?
- [00:49]
B
It's me, Diana Perry Cruise.
- [00:51]
C
Hi, it's me, Jackie McDonald, not Perry Cruise.
- [00:57]
A
Oh, hey guys.
- [01:01]
D
It's Matt from Behavioral Observations. All right, well, cheers. Cheers.
- [01:07]
A
Well, we are all, all here doing our year end extravaganza. Extravaganza. I'm sure we've done this for how I should have counted how many years. I want to say at least six, at least maybe seven, maybe five. Somewhere around. That's super fun.
- [01:23]
D
I'm glad we get this is a fun thing I look forward to every year. So I'm glad we're keeping it up.
- [01:29]
B
Us too.
- [01:29]
A
Yes. So we, we're going to be sort of talking generally about some trends in the field of aba, some remembrances from the shows from the past year and then we are going to be celebrating both of, both of us, all four of us are celebrating an anniversary at the, you know, in March of the coming year.
- [01:45]
C
There's only three, there's four of us.
- [01:47]
A
If you count Matt, who's also here and the Golden Girls makes it eight.
- [01:51]
D
Yeah.
- [01:52]
C
Okay.
- [01:52]
A
So, so, well, so I thought we, we could do a little, a little reminisce, some reminiscing moment. Looking back, it's all about looking back on the year that was 2025. So we were going to start off with some hot hitting news and everyone said nobody wants to talk about that. So we're not going to do that anymore. So instead I thought let's kind of start just with like a round robin of what have you found to be kind of your thoughts on whether it's the state of Aba in 2025 or like positive things that you've seen in the past year that you're, you know, know, excited about and Hope continue into 2026.
- [02:29]
C
Why don't you start, Matt?
- [02:31]
D
Well, I mean, I think the elephant in the room, and this is something I'm probably the least competent to talk about though, but I'll, that's never stopped me from opining on things anyway is, and I think the, the Listeners can probably guess what we're going to talk about is, is the, is AI and Applied Behavior Analysis. I mean it's just everywhere and everything is AI this and AI that. And there's lots of new tools that have come out and platforms that are leveraging these technologies. And at the same time there's some very real concerns about like how much do we offload our work onto these systems? Does that take away the personal touch? Does that take away clinical decision making, et cetera, et cetera. So it's, it's a really fascinating time to at least just be an observer of what's going on. You know, as with many of these things, I think it'll all shake out. I'm not me personally, I'm not, I don't stay up at night worrying about this stuff, but it is interesting and certainly things that we need to pay attention to and I'll be interested to see where it goes. As a user, I don't have a lot of personal need for these sorts of things. I use chat GPT here and there to basically help with developing show notes for the episodes and things like that. But I don't do insurance funded work as just about everyone who listens to the podcast knows. You know, I'm just a school consultant for my day job. I don't really use those tools that much in that regard. So. But, but for those in clinical practice and clinics and in home services, et cetera, you know, there's a lot of tools coming to the market and it'll be interesting to see how that impacts the practice of behavior analysis. What do you guys think?
- [04:18]
A
Yeah, I mean for, I'm kind of saying boat as you met, in terms of like my day job, certainly for things like AI to speed up translations to work with, you know, more diverse population of families. So it's sort of doing like auto translating like teachers notes and I mean that seems like a low, a low hanging AI fruit. Like we've been able to do that for a long time. But that has been really great to just have software that just automatically does it so we don't have to be like, oh, who's going to be the translator? How are we going to talk to this family? How can we communicate? And, and it's just like one more hurdle to deal with. Like maybe it's not worth trying to commute, which is never the right answer.
- [04:50]
B
But wrong answer.
- [04:51]
A
I know that's the wrong answer, but there is, there was a reality of I don't have the language to translate. We don't have access to a translator in a district. It's hard. But now so many of those kind of software tools are available that teachers are just like, everyone gets everything all the time. We don't have to worry about parents. Parents send messages back. So I, in some ways it has opened up communication and I feel like anyone talks to me for a while. Matt, I'm kind of the same as you of like, I'm concerned about this and I don't know if I like it and I don't have a day to day experience and if I worked in a job when part of, if I were like applying for a new job and they told me like, well, what's your use? Like, and that was going to be a deal breaker. I would say I don't want your job. I'd rather be unemployed because I'm mad about this.
- [05:30]
C
I would be like, I use it to be like, what should I eat this week?
- [05:34]
D
Yeah.
- [05:37]
A
Yeah. So I don't know. And I think so much of it is that the money has been in the large language models which I think some AI experts are talking about. Is there a utility to that? And you just get the sense that it feels like one more marketing tool and maybe there'll be a big old bust and then five years later they'll actually be like the good AI that we really were hoping for. That does make change. It does cut out some jobs, but we're all kind of happy with it. In general this feels additive, whereas AI Right now I just feel like all I think about are like social media use of AI and I just, I don't, I don't care. I know that's not it, but, but I mean like that's all I see.
- [06:15]
D
So there's a company I, I work with and they've sponsored some of the shows on behavioral observation. So if you'll, you know, kind of indulge me here in a little bit, you know, called Frontera and, and they're doing some really innovative things in terms of speeding up the insurance authorization process in terms of, you know, that's just one of the many things that they're doing. And so there's, I think, I think there's a lot of efficiencies that can be brought to bear in clinical practice, basically allowing more time for client to therapist interaction. So I think there's some clear positives that if done the right way in an ethically sound manner can really help RBTS and BCBAs spend more time with clients and patients than, than, than they would you know, writing reports or, you know, you know, all the other administrative tasks that, that, that go along with it. So what's interesting, too, I don't know if you guys, you guys have, you guys have had Francesca on, right? Have you seen her substack about the Aura series?
- [07:24]
A
No.
- [07:25]
D
Oh, man. Okay, we got to put this in the show notes. So, okay, so. So for the listeners who, who are familiar, Francesca, Dr. Francesca degli Espinoza. She is like, one of the smartest behavior analysts I've ever met. Yeah, every time I talk to her, I just feel like I haven't studied enough. And anyway, no, she's great. She's super cool. And the last episode she came on on my show, she did one recently, and we talked a lot about, you know, some of her, you know, concerns about AI and it was like, the one thing, it's like, oh, my gosh, I slightly disagree with this personally. Like, I, I, I have, like, immense respect for. Oh, my God, you know, am I allowed to do that?
- [08:04]
A
You know, person, you know, that you, that you can hear some of that. You're like, I know what you're saying is smart, and I don't know if I'm 100% on.
- [08:12]
D
Yeah, yeah, no, no, it, it was actually. And I'll, I'll, I'll send you guys the link to the episode for the show notes, too, if people want to check it out. They haven't heard it, but no, it was just an interest. You know, she's, you know, so if you hadn't have. Haven't checked that up, that episode, she, she has a substack newsletter that's fantastic called what I Learned from Darwin. And she has this special series called the Aura Series. And so it's kind of like this not too distant future where the, everything in Aba is AI driven. And there's these behavior analysts who, like, they, they go on this trip to a developing country, like a service trip of some sort, and all the technology, you know, infrastructure goes to. Goes to hell in a handbasket. And they have to actually work direct. You know, they don't have any of these, like, fancy tools and things like that. It's about, like, how they deal with it and stuff. It's, it's, it's kind of like, it's got like, ready Player One vibes to it. It's really cool. And she is an amazing fiction writer. Like, when you read it, it's like, I feel like I'm reading a novel. It's awesome.
- [09:13]
A
So go for a Walden 3 kind of vibe or something.
- [09:16]
D
Oh, it's much better written than Walden2 for sure.
- [09:19]
B
What are you talking about?
- [09:22]
D
Oh, yeah, well, let's be honest here.
- [09:25]
A
Okay, that, that's making me. Okay, so I know Francesca is, is, is awesome. And just hearing about the idea for the story, I'm like, you know what? I bet that exists. I'm sure someone told me about it. But AI to do a video recording of a behavior, like a functional analysis session so that I don't have to score it later so that it can just watch my interactions, watch the movement of the student and sort of track in real time. You know, the approach, the move away, the engagement in, the turning on, the turning off. Like something like that feels like couldn't AI do that? That feels very doable and that would be very helpful.
- [09:59]
D
And also like video recording and coding of sessions, you know, like, you can, you can track. I know, I know as behavior analysts, we're not worried as much about the topography of verbal behavior in terms of like knee length of utterance and blah, blah, blah, blah, but, you know, it can count those things, you know, and you know, so, and you know, there are, there are opportunities there that I think are, yeah, that, that, that I think can, you know, that can be a force multiplier in terms of, of, you know, clinical efficiency and, you know, so yeah, I'm, I'm for the most part pretty bullish on it, I think, I think, you know, with some reservations, of course, of people like just, you know, you always worry about someone doing everything with, with AI I will say one thing, and I know we need to move on here. We got limited time because you guys have like, pies to bake and whatnot. But the, you know, for, it was last school year for, for giggles, I, I, I had a student I was doing some consultation on and the school had, had compiled a stack of incident reports. And what I did is I created like a spreadsheet, of course, all deindividualized. No, not, no, you know, just, yeah, everyone, everyone relax. You know, but, you know, so I, I, I basically put in like, you know, and it wasn't really abc. I just kind of like wrote like a sentence or two for each, each event describing it. And for, like I said, for giggles, I just said, you know, it, look at this and tell me what the function of is. And it actually, it did a fairly competent job. Like, I was like, you know, like I already had a sense of what was going on. I was just kind of like, I was trying to do some correspondence, you Know, see if there was correspondence between, you know, what it would spit out and what my thinking was. It wasn't. It wasn't that bad. It was actually, you know, like. Yeah. So, you know, and it's probably only going to get better, you know, so anyway, don't. Students don't do that, by the way.
- [11:55]
A
You know, AI feels like it's at that weird point of, like, I was just testing. You have to learn how to do the hard work so that you understand that AI is or is not actually doing it. Right.
- [12:06]
D
Yeah. Do as I say, not as I do, you know, or I was holding it for a friend or, you know, put it, what. Whatever. Whatever you want to, you know, but, like, it. I was just. I was just really just testing to see, like, if there was correspondence between what I was thinking, what was going on and what the. What the system would. Would spit out. And it was. It was. It was pretty impressive.
- [12:27]
A
All right. I know Alan. Alan Carina at Regis has. Has done a lot of cool AI work. I know. We had a. Y' all did a talk at Babbitt.
- [12:36]
C
He loves it.
- [12:36]
A
He loves AI. And I trust. Just like Francesca, I trust Alan. So if Alan likes it, I know there's something there.
- [12:42]
B
But he doesn't mean that you need to like it.
- [12:44]
A
Yeah, well, I don't need to like it, but I know I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna say nuts to this. I mean, I might anyway, just because that's my attitude towards a lot of things. You know what?
- [12:52]
D
I will.
- [12:52]
A
Thanks, Diana. You're welcome. I appreciate the permission. All right, Jackie, Diana, what do you think? Trend. A trend this year that you've been noticing in the past year?
- [13:04]
C
I can say that our students are amazing.
- [13:07]
B
It's true.
- [13:08]
C
That is a trend. That wasn't always the case. Like, I think that people are finally moving out of COVID fatigue and, you know, like, feeling traumatized every day with the world. And I know that our last few years of students have been really driven, have been really excited, have been really ready to embrace change and to hear the neurodivergent perspective and to incorporate that into behavior analytic treatment plans and assessments. And so I think that is a trend that I love and I hope continues.
- [13:47]
A
Yeah. All right, you heard it here first. Students from previous years, you weren't so hot. It's the new students.
- [13:54]
C
I'm saying that Covid was rough.
- [13:56]
A
Yes.
- [13:57]
C
Right. Hope it was rough.
- [13:58]
A
More bandwidth for.
- [14:00]
C
For other things.
- [14:01]
A
Learning pursuits.
- [14:01]
C
Right. And not just trying to survive alone in your bedroom.
- [14:05]
A
That sounds Fair. Yeah, that sounds fair. You're kind of in the same boat. Are you seeing kind of the same trend or do you have a different one that's. That's sort of been sticking out?
- [14:13]
B
I think that that is true, but I was going to say, I. I feel like our field as a whole has just become more confident in terms of being able to pair together compassionate neurodiversity, affirming, culturally responsive approach with the, you know, science side of what it is that we do. And like those. Both of those pieces have always been present in our field. And I think that there has been some, like, pretty significant pendulum swinging over the last, let's say, you know, 10, 10 to 20 years. And everyone is, in my view, kind of coming to say both of these sides are what we are and we can be proud of both of these components, and we're going to lead moving forward and keeping both of these, like, fully present in the work that we do. And that, to me, is exciting. So I think a lot of us have, you know, sort of scrabbled a little bit to make sure that we feel on top and confident in. In our approach, in our science and in how we want to move forward in the field. And I think that we're kind of getting there. So, to me, that is how I see things currently.
- [15:26]
D
Nice.
- [15:27]
A
Nice. And I'll wrap up kind of a similar vein then. I feel like the field again, maybe it's that sense of we kind of know who we are and who we want to be better than we have in other years. But I do really feel like the idea of collaborating with other people as an active role where we are just a member of a team, rather than the smartest member of a team that will tell everyone what to do. I've definitely seen that more like, I mean, all of Babbitt this year was on the idea of collaboration. Matt, I know you spoke at the Babbitt Social, was it this previous spring? And we're talking about motivational interviewing. And I don't know how much, like, feedback you got from folks, but I would assume it was similar to when I first heard about it, of man. We should be talking about this way more in the work we're doing. Like, so much of this is, I think, so able to be explained as behavior, as behavior of change. And I feel like a couple years before that, you get a couple people talking about it, and a couple people be like, that's not behavior analysis. That doesn't count. And it's. I feel like everyone is more Willing to be open about what is human behavior and more stuff that we feel comfortable like. I think we can explain this as behavior, and therefore we should be a part of learning more about it and reaching out a little bit more.
- [16:42]
D
So, Rob, the talk you're referring to is the one that not just I did, but it was a collaboration between myself and Dr. Cara Regan.
- [16:48]
A
Yes.
- [16:49]
D
And the source, at least for my part of the talk, was a text from professors of social work. It was not even a behavior analytics text. It's this book called Clinical Interviewing, which if you own a clinic or if you're, you know, if you're some, someone in clinical leadership and you want to, and you're in charge, you're in charge of other BCBAs, and you want them to really get better at soft skills and things like that. This book called Clinical Interviewing. And I'll, I'll send you guys the link so you can have it in your show notes. I'll certainly put it in mine. I have gifted this book to many people. It's, I, I, it's amazing. It's, it's, and it's. So when you read it, it's like, of course, it's like one of those things you read and it's like, oh my gosh, this makes so much. Yeah. Right. So, yeah. And we were able to put together a talk that was, you know, I, I think relatively, you know, made sense, you know, aligned with behavior analytic principles. But the source material was from the social work field about, you know, how, how to gain rapport, what, what groundwork that you need to lay before you even start thinking about providing recommendations and things like that. So I, I, yeah, that, that's one area where I think that's one example of being able to draw from a different field, shoot it through a behavioral lens so you understand the principles that underpin it. Of course. But, but is, is, you know, I think we need more of that. So. Yeah.
- [18:14]
A
And I don't know, this year just, it felt more like you could come out and be like, I'm going to learn about this from another field and I'm going to put my behavioral lens on it. Maybe it will be, maybe it won't be behavior analytic when it comes to it, but I'm comfortable saying, let's learn about this because other people are interested and why aren't we? And maybe we'll decide why we're not, but maybe we'll decide we are interested and there's more we can add to the process.
- [18:36]
D
Yep. We still need, we still need to maintain some skepticism, of course. You know, like. Like, what's the saying? You know, keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out. Who said that? I don't know. Diana, I cut you off. I'm sorry. Please.
- [18:48]
B
It sounds like Mark. A Mark Twain one, but I don't actually know who said that. I was just going to say I feel like we are, like, more confident in our humility.
- [18:56]
A
If that makes SEN an oxymoron. No, but we can sit, listen to an idea that we're not uncomfortable with and not be like, oh, this idea is wrong. That's not how it works.
- [19:06]
D
I am so freaking humble. I'm so freaking humble.
- [19:10]
B
No one's more humble than me.
- [19:12]
A
It's our acceptance. Our acceptance. Hexaflex is just. It's through the roof these days. Sit with these feelings.
- [19:18]
B
Turns out time's up and we have to go.
- [19:22]
D
Oh, God.
- [19:23]
A
All right, all right. So trends in. So those are some of the trends we've been noticing. Another thing that we did, we had last year. And let's do it again this year. Top. Top eight episodes of 2025 from the shows. I think last year we did it like a one and one. And let's just do that again. Sound good?
- [19:37]
D
All right. All right, cool.
- [19:38]
B
Okay, who wants to go first?
- [19:40]
C
I want to go first because I love that our number eight.
- [19:43]
A
Number eight has Jackie's name in the title.
- [19:45]
C
Yeah. So number eight for this year was why Jackie Hates D.R.O.
- [19:50]
A
Ooh.
- [19:51]
C
I mean, episode three, 20.
- [19:52]
A
It's been a cliffhanger for many years on the podcast. I think after almost 10, people were really curious how it was going to end so far. Like, unlike Twin Peaks or Lost, people still seem to be listening to the show even though they found out the answer. So I think that's probably why it just, you know, it's one of those unanswered questions.
- [20:09]
C
I can say that it was hilarious because when I saw people in person, they wanted to defend their use of the DRO all the time. So that's awesome. Like, BCBAs I haven't seen in, like, 15 years. I ran into a BCPA at Sylvia's. Like, her, like, school, Sylvie's, my daughter, her school meeting. And I haven't seen this person in, I swear, like, 15 to 20 years. And she came up and she's like, I used grl. And I was like, okay. She was like, but here's the reason why. And I was like, okay. She said, but there's a good rationale. I'm Like, I still hate them and I'm still going to stand by what I said. If you're all using DROs and nothing else.
- [20:56]
D
Jackie, can I ask you a question? Sure. Does this BCBA acquaintance of yours, did they go to a meeting with other BCBAs periodically that use DROs and they say, hey, my name is so and so maybe. Right.
- [21:13]
A
It's been three days since I used.
- [21:15]
C
A DRO that actually, I think, what's wrong?
- [21:19]
D
I got so. I have to admit, I haven't listened. I should listen to those shows and find out the reason for the hate. I gotta understand the hate.
- [21:27]
B
So, yeah, you gotta find out why. Yeah. It's episode 320 for anyone who wants to tune in.
- [21:33]
A
It's more complicated than, like, Jackie just thinks this is stupid or like, Jackie thinks there's better program. There is a lot of research, and it does get into these, like, moment by moment kind of electromechanical computer measuring systems to really quantify why DRO is not ever the best option, at least according to the research and sort of, you know, kind of the consensus we came from the episode. So it's not as simple as, like, it's bad or there's, like, always something way better.
- [22:01]
D
Like, well, it's essentially a punishment procedure. Right. Like, you just pretty much.
- [22:05]
C
Yeah, that is why it's not reinforcement at all. And you're not teaching a thing. But listen to the episode, everyone.
- [22:10]
D
All right, all right, I'll stop.
- [22:11]
C
That was number eight. I just thought it was funny that people have, like, been actively.
- [22:16]
B
Oh, yeah, we've had a lot of. And online.
- [22:18]
D
Online.
- [22:19]
C
People are coming, emailing me on our.
- [22:21]
D
Patreon Y. Oh, that's so awesome. That means you get. You. You really hit on. You hit a nerve there. No, in a good way. That mean that's. That's great podcasting right there. So kudos to you guys.
- [22:32]
C
Challenged people's thoughts on what they are currently doing and they are not happy about it.
- [22:37]
A
Yeah. So in 2026, every episode will be titled why Blank is Awful. And we'll just. We'll be like, engagement through the roof.
- [22:43]
D
I'm gonna steal that.
- [22:44]
A
Guys, just between both of us, everything is just. Everything's bad.
- [22:50]
D
Why I hate X. Y or.
- [22:52]
A
There we go.
- [22:54]
C
That was our number eight. What was your number eight, Matt?
- [22:56]
D
My number eight. So it's a little weird because, like, my. So, all right, I'm gonna kind of get in the weeds here a little bit because. So I did a couple of things. One is I looked at the way I define. So I looked at downloads after 30 days of publication.
- [23:11]
B
Okay.
- [23:12]
C
Because I just went to a website and typed in what are the top highest 2025 inside track. And these are the ones they gave me.
- [23:21]
D
You went to Claude and said one of the best ABA inside track. So, no, I went to my stats and, and looked at the downloads after 30 days. And what that means is that there are, you know, we're recording this on December 5th, and so that means there's, there's a number of episodes that we've both published that are not captured by these data. So I had to kind of reach back into 2024 slightly. Okay. So that altered the, the, the calculus here a little bit. So. All right, so there's some, plenty. There's some really. Like that Francesca episode I was just talking about, that was, that, that was out of the running for this because it missed the cutoff because it hasn't been out for 30 days. All right, having said that, let's see, I'll go with episode 313. It was on Ascent with Cody Morris.
- [24:06]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [24:07]
A
Oh yeah. Cody's great.
- [24:08]
D
Cody is the man. He's so good. And you guys have had him on, right?
- [24:13]
C
We have, yep.
- [24:14]
D
Yeah. You know, it's funny when you, when you do a podcast with someone else who's a podcast host, it's like, it's, it's so easy, you know, it's like it's like cheating, you know, like.
- [24:25]
A
Yeah, they just get the, they get the assignment. They know, they know the fact.
- [24:29]
D
It's so good. It's so good. And he's so good at explaining things. And what I like about his podcast is that he, he does a, a really good job of kind of sticking to almost like a journalist role, being somewhat impartial, but every once in a while, kind of, you know, putting his own thoughts into the follow up question. So it's not just QA qa. There's a lot of really thoughtful discussion and responses and he's bringing his own experiences to bear in, in the, in these conversations. So I think I'm a huge fan of how he conducts an interview. And so we, yeah, so we did this, you know, so I get to ask all my. Yeah. Butt questions about Ascent and because I'm, you know, I'm a, I'm a knuckle dragger with some of these things, you know, you know, and it, it, and he was a really good sport about it and, and we. So I think if people want a, a really nuanced Discussion that's not just cookie cutter. It's not like one size fits all or whatever that. A, they should read the article that he published in Java that came out recently. And B, if they want the Cliff Notes version, listen to the. The podcast that we did in session three. Thirteen.
- [25:37]
A
Nice.
- [25:37]
C
Nice.
- [25:38]
A
Yeah, Cody. Cody is a guy I remember we had him on. I think one of the things that when you do a podcast, you know, as long as we've been doing it, I'll. We'll like see people at conferences and we'll have them on the show like they were on pretty recently.
- [25:51]
D
Right.
- [25:51]
A
And you'll look back and you're like, that was like five years ago. Have them on the show again.
- [25:54]
D
Exactly.
- [25:55]
A
But you just don't notice until you're looking at the. The list. But yes, Cody, Cody is really, really excellent. And yes, understands the podcast game.
- [26:02]
B
Yeah, he's such an interesting guy. He seems like he's never afraid to like, touch the third rail of whatever topic it is that he wants to learn about. Right.
- [26:11]
D
Well, he. He's Midwestern. Nice. So it's like, how do you get upset?
- [26:14]
A
Let's do number seven.
- [26:16]
D
Lucky number seven.
- [26:17]
B
Number seven for maybe the inside track was episode 328, Water Safety Skills. This was just a brand new episode, so I think that that's why it's showing up more specifically than any other resonated.
- [26:30]
D
Apparently that's what the algo said.
- [26:33]
B
Yeah. Yeah. But it was a good one. You know, we talked about water safety, which is a really important skill.
- [26:37]
C
And a lot in the news recently. There have been many, many children that have not made it.
- [26:47]
B
Yeah.
- [26:48]
C
Water. And so I think maybe that may have.
- [26:51]
B
I think it's just. Brent, it's only been out, so it looks like it's been downloaded a lot.
- [26:55]
C
Yeah.
- [26:56]
B
Because it just came out like last month.
- [26:58]
A
Well, the number one, no spoilers, but this is good information. Number one way to prevent danger in the water is swimming. Learning to swim.
- [27:07]
B
Thank you.
- [27:08]
A
Yeah, there's more to it than that, but that is. That is important, everyone.
- [27:12]
B
Okay, what's your number?
- [27:13]
D
Move. Move to the desert or move to the desert.
- [27:15]
A
That's number two.
- [27:17]
D
All right, so what are we on number six?
- [27:19]
A
No, you're number seven.
- [27:20]
C
Number seven.
- [27:21]
D
Oh, my. Number seven. Oh, my. Number seven is the. These. Oh, no, I'm sorry. No, I'm, I.
- [27:25]
A
Okay.
- [27:26]
D
Yeah. That would be the episode on Trauma with. Oh, I just. Oh, I just lost the link there. We're, you know. Hey, audience, we've been having issues here. Where did it go. It was.
- [27:38]
A
We're gonna leave it at 20 minutes that we couldn't record because of technical issues. I'm just gonna put in blank space just so. So they feel it. They feel the recording.
- [27:45]
D
It was with Gabby Morgan and David Adams. Trauma Informed Behavior Analysis. A guide for BCBAs. So, yeah, again, it's one of those topics that is, you know, it's been an area of focus over the last few years. And, you know, it's an interesting episode because, you know, David in particular is a clinical psychologist, and he's also been a foster parent to kids with, you know, you know, very difficult, you know, a lot of adverse experiences and things like that. So it was a interesting conversation talking about the neurobiology of trauma, the interaction between respondent and operant conditioning, and some of his parenting experiences. So Gabby and David did a really good job on that one. So if folks missed that, they should go check it out.
- [28:31]
A
That's excellent. Our numbers that were on number six. Our number six was Family supports and contextual treatment planning, which I think probably number 309. Yeah, number 309. I think a lot of it is if you put out something that's either a cultural or ethics episode. Those are ones that people always want to either. I'm hoping that it's. They just love learning about ethics and cultural thing as opposed to, hey, that is the CE type that I need more of this. This episode was definitely one where we did a lot of kind of. That wasn't just us. We were just doing a discussion about supports, family supports. And I do think kind of going with our trends in aba. I think there's a lot more humility so that we can bring that to our work with families rather than family. I'm very smart. Let me tell you what you're doing wrong. It's more of a tell me how you're a great family and what you would like us to help you get better at was a lot of the. Kind of the. The context of that episode. So. And I was very happy that we were able. I think whether it's through maturity or just all our knowledge and awesomeness, really able to come at it from a perspective of what do we as BCBAs, need to learn about working with families rather than what the families need to learn from working with us. So I hope everybody listens, gets that idea as well.
- [29:48]
D
Right on.
- [29:49]
A
Matt, you're number six.
- [29:51]
D
All right. This one's fun. I'm so happy this one made it into the top eight. This is the one on Chronic Absenteeism and school refusal.
- [29:58]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [30:00]
D
I know you guys did a golden oldie on that with Chris Kearney, if I recall correctly. And I remember that was a solo interview that Rob, you did with him.
- [30:09]
A
A long time ago.
- [30:10]
D
Yeah, very. That, that had to be like year two, maybe year three. I don't know it while ago.
- [30:15]
A
It was Chris. Chris Carney was one of the first people to write about functional analysis of school attendance problems, which was school refusal at the time. And he did it back in, I want to say, 98 at a talk at Babbitt. So if you look at like some of the oldest references to issues around functional behavior assessment of school refusal, it is a talk at Babbitt are like some of the oldest ones. Not, not for school. Because it goes back to like the early 1900s when kids were all truants and, you know, they were going off and doing whatever kids did in the early 20th century when they didn't go to school. I don't know, riding the rails, maybe.
- [30:50]
D
Yeah, they were, you know, pushing the hoops down the street with a stick.
- [30:54]
A
It was more fun than school back then.
- [30:56]
D
Yeah. So this is with Kristen McNeely. She's a clinician, you know, kind of trained as a licensed clinical mental health counselor, if I'm not mistaken, and started doing some work in schools. And now she supports, she, her work is basically with parents to help them, you know, kind of reduce parental accommodations, like over accommodations. That is for, you know, for, you know, these are my words, not hers. So if I mischaracterize it, you can yell at me and not Kristen. But yeah, it, I, I, so, and, and what was special last episode? It was, it was session 300 and I didn't make a big deal out of it other than the fact that like, I thought it was a perfect episode 300 because it was a very under, under noticed area where behavior analysis can make a difference. And which is one of the reasons that one of the motivations starting a podcast in the first place. So we're talking about functional analysis. We weren't talking about mands and tax. We weren't talking about BST or, you know, not to say those things aren't unimportant, but this was a really novel application of behavior analytic principles to solve a hugely socially significant problem. And so I was so happy that this one made it and that it got the notoriety it did.
- [32:13]
A
Nice. And Matt, I love that you had someone who was talking about it from the parent treatment perspective, because you see that in some of the Literature, but most of it is about what is the school doing to help the family, but mostly to help the kid. So to have that parent. We have a parent group here, Massachusetts, actually. I saw them do a talk last year, two years ago, that was on a similar subject. And it was really eye opening to come at it from the perspective of how is this impacting the family rather than the traditional, like, well, if you tried harder as a family, your kid would go to school. You know, that's really. That's a non starter. Yeah.
- [32:45]
D
The whole idea of parental accommodation is huge. And this in the shownotes to that particular episode, she references a couple books which I ended up buying and reading, and they were just fantastic and kind of opened my eyes on some of those issues.
- [32:59]
A
Nice.
- [33:00]
B
Did you say open your AIs?
- [33:07]
A
All right, number fives. Number five.
- [33:09]
C
Number five was episode 318, predicting and preventing mass shootings with Dr. James Mendel Meindl. Yeah, this is one of the ones. I met him at Babbitt at a table.
- [33:22]
A
He was at Babbitt. You on the podcast. Let's go.
- [33:24]
C
I found him very fascinating. And I didn't even know that he was talking like in like five minutes. And then he was like, oh, gotta go. And I'm like, where are you going? He's like, oh, I'm gonna go do my invited address. I'm like, oh, cool.
- [33:39]
A
He's in the room where the. Where the Worcester Railers play hockey. You know, big room.
- [33:44]
C
Yeah. So that one was really interesting. And I think it's a nice way to look at behavior analysis outside the traditional applications.
- [33:52]
A
I was able to bring that episode up at a Thanksgiving conversation I had this year as well. So we have a great. Thanks. The Barry curious. We really rock a Thanksgiving conversation. Wow. Okay. How about you, man?
- [34:06]
D
How do I follow that? All right, so mine is episode 299. Understanding repetitive behavior with someone near and dear to all four of us. Dr. Bill heard.
- [34:20]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [34:21]
B
Awesome.
- [34:21]
D
Yeah.
- [34:22]
B
Gotta love Bill, right?
- [34:23]
D
Gotta love Bill.
- [34:25]
B
To Bill.
- [34:26]
D
Yeah. Yeah.
- [34:26]
A
Bill's.
- [34:27]
D
Bill's the man we all, you know, we all know and love. And if you haven't listened to the episode, just go listen to it. I don't want to belabor the point because, you know, what Bill says is super informative. And the most fun part about talking with him is trying to figure out if he's joking or not. His wit is so dry. It's so, so dry. And it's like, is he. Is this a joke or is this like, you know or, you know, is this mild criticism or is it just conversation? I don't know. So it's exciting.
- [35:05]
A
It's a combination.
- [35:05]
D
It's exciting when you talk to him because you never know. You know, you're just always on your toes. No, no. All kidding aside, he's a super cool guy. Great. There's a lot of great stories in there. We talk about why he's proud to be a behavior analyst and why you should, too. That's towards the end of the podcast. We also talk about anxiety with kids with autism or individuals with autism, I should say. So there's a little grab bag, a little something there for lots of folks. So go check it out.
- [35:32]
A
Beautiful.
- [35:33]
B
Very good.
- [35:34]
A
All right, number four.
- [35:35]
B
Yes. Number four for us is our episode 300.
- [35:40]
A
So have 300 episodes of a podcast.
- [35:43]
B
This one was back towards the beginning of the year, and we did live and in person, which was kind of fun on the Regis campus. And the topic was my selection, and one that has proven to be very prescient. It was vaccines do not cause autism.
- [35:59]
D
Asterisks.
- [36:00]
B
There's no asterisk.
- [36:01]
A
There was. If you check the CDC website, I think you'll notice there is an.
- [36:05]
D
Okay.
- [36:05]
A
Okay. We.
- [36:07]
B
Yeah. So we review all of the existing comprehensive, large study, longitudinal research that demonstrates that vaccines do not cause autism, and you can check it out.
- [36:21]
D
But. But they really do. I'm just kidding, folks.
- [36:24]
B
They don't.
- [36:25]
A
So the asterisks is for. Right.
- [36:29]
D
I kid. I kid. I kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was.
- [36:32]
B
It was. We got to do it. Like, we had alumni, like Regis alums come. We had podcast listeners come. We had old friends come, we had past guests on the show come.
- [36:43]
C
We had snacks.
- [36:44]
B
Really fun.
- [36:45]
C
And pizza.
- [36:45]
B
Yeah, it was a really fun time. And thanks everyone who came out.
- [36:48]
A
And the best part of any live recording is I'm just spending the whole recording going. I bet our recording stuff fails and we don't get this recording captured, and I'll be sad. But luckily we didn't, so. But that's always my fear. It's always.
- [37:00]
B
It worked out.
- [37:01]
C
So.
- [37:01]
A
Yeah, I'm at your number four.
- [37:04]
D
All right. I missed one, actually. I'm out of order here, but I'll try to get myself back on track. So I did an episode with Kyle Miguel on by direct directional naming.
- [37:12]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [37:13]
D
Which is. Which is great fun. It's a topic that, you know, it's one of those things. It's like, you know, you read it. It's like while you're reading it, you get it and, you know like, you walk away and like you, you know, you go, you know, check your email or you go, like, you know, I don't know, make a cup of coffee or something like that. And you come back, it's like, oh, man, all that information just left my head.
- [37:32]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:33]
B
Also what. Talking to Billy Hearn is like.
- [37:35]
D
Yeah, exactly.
- [37:36]
C
Sometimes when I'm talking to either of them, like, two weeks later, I'm like, oh, that's what that.
- [37:42]
D
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [37:43]
B
I feel like, you know, in memento when the guy's like, get a piece of paper and write it down. Get a piece of paper. Right?
- [37:47]
A
Yeah.
- [37:48]
B
That's how I am.
- [37:49]
A
Tattoo your bi directional. Naming discussion on your, on your body is the only way.
- [37:53]
D
Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Naming is labeling with understanding. Something like that. It's like those little things like that, like, kind of deep stuff, you know, and it's funny because, like, I, I, I, we went over the, the, was it the 2016 or 2018 paper that he wrote on that, you know, when he kind of introduced the concept. And I, I've, I've had the opportunity to meet some time with him. And so every time I read his stuff, I'm reading it in his voice.
- [38:16]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [38:18]
D
It's like, uncanny. So anyway, super cool guy. Very fun episode. He makes this stuff kind of approachable, you know, at least from my perspective.
- [38:27]
B
So.
- [38:27]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [38:28]
D
And he's. He's going to be speaking at the R Behavior Conference, which is coming up.
- [38:33]
A
March.
- [38:34]
D
At the end of March of 2020.
- [38:36]
B
Kai was very rock and roll in his own way.
- [38:43]
D
Can't say any better.
- [38:45]
A
You're out. You're out of order. Or do you, do you need to do another one to catch up with numbers?
- [38:49]
D
No, you guys go. You guys go. You guys can go ahead. Okay. I'll figure it out, I think.
- [38:55]
A
What are we on our. Oh, so number threes? Our number three was Behavioral Artistry Revisited with Dr. Amy Booksman, who we.
- [39:03]
B
Number 324.
- [39:04]
A
324. We did an episode on Behavioral Artistry that apparently was not on our top eight podcast. Maybe because it was last year. I don't. Okay, it was last year.
- [39:12]
C
It was only this year.
- [39:13]
A
Okay. Okay. So we did that last year. And Amy reached out and said, hey, by the way, I wrote one of those articles you talked about. I'd like to talk about it more. Which you think.
- [39:24]
C
Because we had a lot of questions about the old article. And she said, I just happened to write an article that addresses all of the questions that you Guys had in the past.
- [39:33]
A
Oh, good. I can't. I was remembering. I was remembering it wrong. I was remembering it as like, oh, no, we feel bad. We should have asked you to come on the show when you wrote.
- [39:40]
C
No, no, she. She had the answers to.
- [39:43]
A
It was the new. Okay, great. But anyway, it's a topic that I feel like kind of in, you know, to. To. To the trend. I talked about this idea of, you know, thinking about being a behavior analyst as, you know, what is the art. The artistry of it was something that really was very. I get alluring as an idea because it's. You work with so many people, and some people just get it. They're just so good. And not because they're BCAs, just because they just get working with people. And some people with all the training, it's like, they're not the greatest clinicians. Why? Like, what is it? Like, what's that? What's that unnameable? And then going back to some of Fox's writing and then, you know, having Amy as someone who's working on this, like, actively working on how to teach these skills, but also not making it such a. Oh, it's just one more behavior analytics skill that we can teach through behavior skills training and which. Which you can to some extent, but we sort of talked about the limitations of that. What. What it means to be a behavioral artist.
- [40:34]
B
Procedure.
- [40:35]
D
Yeah.
- [40:35]
A
Oh, sorry. It was the tips. It was the TIPS procedure, which is a lot like pst and. But just a lot of. A lot of fun to have on. And again, just a guest who, you know, gets the podcast medium of, like, some of this needs to be just, like, very, you know, deep thought, good conversation. Everyone learns something. But some of it also just needs to be like, a ton of fun to talk about too. Like, it needs to be exciting, so.
- [40:59]
D
328.
- [41:00]
A
323. 24.
- [41:02]
D
324. I missed that one. I'm gonna have to check that out. That sounds right up my alley.
- [41:06]
A
I mean, she's cool. Yeah. If you haven't spoken to her too, Matt. Like, behavioral artistry, I think, is a topic that, you know, I'm sure, you know, you've seen some of it, you know, but. But it definitely one that I think is very in line with, like, the work that you do. And I just loved reading about it. It was like one of those, like, yes, this is the thing I've been talking about, but haven't written down or named. I just kind of. I don't have vibes. Outed as a thing. So someone had done it. Hooray.
- [41:30]
D
Sweet.
- [41:32]
A
All right, what's your number three, Matt?
- [41:34]
D
My number three is Jamie Salter and Katie Croaky talking about Self and Match and Self Management. I was. I was actually surprised. I. You know, it's like I had some. I had some episodes that I. I was not, Not, Not. Not that I thought that they were unpopular or anything like that. I just, you know, you never know what resonates with the audience. Right. I'm sure you guys had this experience, like, you put something out, it's like, oh, wow. People really, you know, kind of dug that, and I just didn't see that coming. And so these are. These are two folks that developed. I don't know if you guys have. You guys. Are you familiar with the Self and Match? It's a self management curriculum, you know, and what I love about this is, you know, kind of falls along, like, the idea of implementation science. Like, they're not recreating the wheel. They're making the wheel more accessible to other people and getting it out there and getting.
- [42:21]
B
They're making it rounder.
- [42:23]
D
Yeah, they're making it. It's so. The wheel is so round. It's. It's so round.
- [42:29]
B
It just rolls so smooth now.
- [42:31]
D
That's right. It's the great. It's the greatest wheel. It's around this wheel. Anyway, so where was I? But they.
- [42:38]
A
They, they.
- [42:38]
D
They have this curriculum called Self and Match, and it's. And these guys are out there presenting at mainstream educational conferences. Yeah. You know, they're out there in school districts, you know, teaching people to implement, you know, kind of basic self management interventions, basic reinforcement systems and things like that. And they're making it very accessible to folks. And I. You know, it's just one of those things. It's like more of this, please. You know, to kind of paraphrase Pat Fryman. And I just. I just think that the work that they do is outstanding. I've gotten to know them personally a little bit too, and they're. They're. They're just really great people as well. So I'm really happy to see that episode resonate so strongly with the audience. Very nice.
- [43:25]
B
That's super cool.
- [43:26]
C
Yeah.
- [43:27]
A
All right, we're coming up around the bend. Number two, Jaggy.
- [43:30]
C
Number two is disability affirming supervision. That's episode 321, and that one is likely because it is a supervision episode. And we. That's usually high. High on the. On the. On the most listened.
- [43:46]
A
That's not our Only we did a bunch of supervision. So the fact that that one came out as number two, there's got to be more to it than just, ooh, supervision. I'd like to think it's because we chose a topic that people don't. We don't see a lot publications about in, in behavior analysis, more, but not as much.
- [44:03]
C
And maybe. And this one was specifically around how you supervise your supervisees that may or may not have a disability. Specifically disability. And so that's something that is. It was new in, in the research this year, and so it was exciting.
- [44:20]
D
Yeah.
- [44:21]
C
Yeah. That was one of my favorites. I know that.
- [44:24]
A
Yeah. It was a lot of fun to learn about.
- [44:25]
C
Yeah.
- [44:26]
A
Talk about, discuss.
- [44:27]
C
It made me very excited.
- [44:30]
A
It's nice to know there's more supervision covered.
- [44:32]
B
An article By Grace, Echo, JoJo, and that episode is awesome.
- [44:36]
C
I just love that name, too.
- [44:38]
D
Great name.
- [44:42]
C
Yeah.
- [44:42]
B
And then it ties into the talk that you and I did on UDL as well. Is not on the podcast.
- [44:49]
A
No.
- [44:49]
B
The difference. No, it's for Babbitt.
- [44:52]
D
Yeah.
- [44:53]
B
Yeah. Okay.
- [44:56]
A
You're number two.
- [44:57]
D
Okay. Another. Another set of guests that are near and dear to my heart. Yeah, I, I didn't realize this until I actually looked at the stats, but it's my good friends, dear friends and business partners anika Costa and Dr. Polly Cavoni.
- [45:11]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [45:12]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [45:13]
D
And yeah, I, I, I, When I put this information together, I, I shot them a text. I'm like, by the way, you guys are like, you know, almost the top. You know the number.
- [45:22]
C
Right.
- [45:22]
B
Number two.
- [45:24]
A
Yeah.
- [45:24]
D
Well, technically, you know, as far as the Met, I'll, I'll put the asterisk. They are kind Of *. Number one. When we get to the number one, I'll, I'll provide some context as to why the asterisk.
- [45:34]
B
There.
- [45:34]
D
Okay. But, but yeah, so they came on to talk about motivational interview. Also. People that go out and work in school districts at scale, they, you know, they go, you know, they do a lot of work with, at the state level. They've done a lot of work with like, the Hawaii, doe, South Carolina, West Virginia. They're all over the place. And I'm, it's just a, I'm really lucky to. That they've, you know, I've kind of hooked on to them a little bit to do some of the stuff we were doing over at the Behavioral Toolbox. But that episode, you know, Rob, to your earlier point about becoming more interested in motivational interviewing, we talked about that a little bit in that Episode.
- [46:13]
A
And basically about how interested I was in motivational interviewing. Yeah.
- [46:16]
D
Yeah. You know, the entire episode was about you and so. Honored.
- [46:20]
A
Matt. Thank.
- [46:21]
D
You. And how we need to approach.
- [46:23]
A
Rob with open ended.
- [46:25]
D
Questions. Yeah, yeah. And you know, the, the, you know, the, the ruler and the whole nine.
- [46:30]
A
Yard. You know, I need affirmation. Ask my co host. I need an affirmation that starts.
- [46:35]
D
With asking open ended questions and then, you know. Anyway, so all kidding aside, that was session 286 as one of the first episodes in.
- [46:46]
A
2025. Nice. Poly has a book as a supervision or leadership book. Am I thinking about.
- [46:53]
D
That? Right. Polly is a savant in terms of writing productivity, but it's like positional authority.
- [47:03]
A
Authority. Yeah.
- [47:04]
D
Yeah.
- [47:05]
A
Right.
- [47:05]
D
Okay. That guy writes a book a.
- [47:07]
A
Month. It seems like it. But I know that's on our. I think that's on our, our short list for a supervision September read. You.
- [47:14]
D
Should. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure he'd love to come on and talk about it too. Yeah, we do.
- [47:19]
B
It. We'll have him.
- [47:19]
A
On. He is also, I think, on the, on the short list of, like.
- [47:22]
D
Why would I pull you? Yeah. So, yeah, he literally writes a book. I mean, his level of productivity is off the charts. It makes me feel terrible.
- [47:32]
A
Inside. I know, I know Those people, those people who just are working hard to like, teach other people new things. Like, how dare they. How dare they make the rest of us feel lazy? I don't like that.
- [47:41]
D
No. Yeah, yeah.
- [47:42]
A
Yeah. Crossed off the list. I don't want to talk to you, Paul. You make me feel bad.
- [47:48]
D
Just. He just came off a cruise, so, you.
- [47:51]
A
Know. Oh, okay. Okay. So this will be the good.
- [47:53]
D
Time. All good? All good. All.
- [47:56]
A
Right. I think we're coming around to number number.
- [47:58]
B
One. Well, how exciting. Number one for us. Oh, thank you. Drum roll. Our number one episode was episode 305, which is ableism and the medical model of disability, which I was excited to talk about. This is something I talk about in my class as well. We talk about the medical and the social models of disability and how that ties into ableism. We had a sister episode, I guess, about ableism in the education system. That one didn't rank, though. Oh, maybe it was the previous.
- [48:28]
C
Year. I think it was.
- [48:29]
B
The. It was 295, so it might have been in like December of last year, perhaps. So. Yeah. Yeah, that was number.
- [48:36]
D
One. Yeah. All.
- [48:38]
B
Right. And how.
- [48:39]
A
Do. How do.
- [48:40]
B
We. If I do this, what will.
- [48:41]
A
Happen? It will make terrible sounds. Please don't.
- [48:43]
B
Do. That's too loud. All.
- [48:44]
D
Right. All right, so. So my number one episode actually was in December of last year because it missed the.
- [48:50]
A
Cutoff. Oh.
- [48:51]
D
Okay. All right, so there's the asterisk I.
- [48:54]
A
Foreshadowed. We will allow it because it is a special episode. Judges, we're going to allow it just this once, young.
- [49:03]
D
Man. East Germany.
- [49:04]
B
Allows. I'm getting word. I'll allow.
- [49:05]
A
It. That's.
- [49:06]
D
Right. East Germany says yes. Still waiting on the checks. All right, so, yeah, so doubling the downloads of all the other character aforementioned episodes was session 283 with this up and coming behavior analyst. You may not have heard of him. His name is Greg something. I'm blanking on his last name. It begins with Hanley. Yeah, Greg Hanley. So anyway, so, yeah, so Greg came on and I published this. Actually, I published this like right around the same time we published the year in review for last year. And as such, it did. It, it was, it didn't fall into the catchment area of what we're talking about this year, and it was downloaded again twice as much. More than twice as much as all the other episodes that we've discussed thus far.
- [49:51]
A
Because.
- [49:51]
D
Wow. Yeah, I mean, he could, he. Greg can come on the podcast and basically read the yellow pages and I think it would be a hit. So, you know.
- [50:01]
A
Anyway. Is that what he did on that episode, Matt, or. He did.
- [50:04]
D
Yeah. And after that, after he got through Z, we. We talked about deconstructing what he means about compassionate care and applied behavior.
- [50:13]
A
Analysis. Oh, I would. So we'd like tell, like, tell. Tell visibility, stuff like that as.
- [50:18]
D
Well. Yeah, yeah. Also there's, you know, if you, if you, if you haven't caught that episode, there was a lot of hot takes and when we, you know, like I, I have a team that publishes reels of, and clips and whatnot of segments of the, of the, the podcast online. You can find them on my, like Instagram and LinkedIn and whatnot. I, I don't think it'll be too controversial to say, but Greg's at the point in his career where he, you know.
- [50:41]
B
He'S. He says what he.
- [50:44]
C
Wants.
- [50:44]
D
Yeah. He says what he. Yeah, yeah, he's letting it.
- [50:46]
C
Fly. He says what he.
- [50:47]
A
Wants. But that's been a couple.
- [50:48]
D
Years. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so there's some, there's some really, you know, you know, so like we, we. So some of those posts that went on LinkedIn, like, got a lot of, like a lot of discussion as it were, and so it was really, really interesting. I'll see if I can find the LinkedIn.
- [51:04]
B
Thread.
- [51:05]
D
Cool. And send it to you guys for the show notes. But it was a lot of, kind of like a lot of people chopping it up, you know, and things like that. So, you know, really, really interesting. And whether you agree or not with, with, with him, it, it, it, it's, it's good to, it's good to provoke that thought, you know, in terms of like how we approach these things, particularly as it relates to social validity, socially valid outcomes that are, that, that, that, that transcend highly staffed, highly trained settings. Yeah, I thought it was a really interesting.
- [51:36]
A
Discussion. Very nice, Very nice. All right, so lots of fun. Lots of.
- [51:41]
D
Stuff. So folks, if you're listening to.
- [51:42]
A
This, this is your first episode of either of our shows. You have a lot of other episodes you probably should have listened to first. But I'm glad you're.
- [51:49]
B
Here. A lot of homework to do.
- [51:50]
A
Now. All right, well.
- [51:53]
C
Last. Can I tell you something.
- [51:54]
A
Really? Oh yeah, go for.
- [51:55]
D
It. Yeah.
- [51:55]
C
Please. Someone reached out, one of like our old friends and was like, I listen to the podcast and I, I listened so much because it's December, right? So many of us are renewing her now. She's like, I listened so much that I thought we were actually friends. But then I realized that you don't have an 8 month old child because she listened to an old child and then she's like, you have an.
- [52:17]
B
8 month old child and she's like.
- [52:18]
C
Oh yeah, it's an old.
- [52:20]
A
Episode. So time has.
- [52:21]
B
Moved. I just think that time has continued to go.
- [52:23]
A
Forward. Oh, well, I think that brings us to the last thing. Last thing. We are both, we're both approaching. Speaking of time moving on. This year, this upcoming year, 2026 in Aba, I think one of the most important things is that we've got two ABA podcasts that have been going on for 10 years. If we make it through January and February into March, we'll have both, if we've all made it for 10 years of doing this stuff. So I'm sure we'll be doing 10 year retrospectives and all that jazz. But I thought what might be fun since there's not a lot of us out there who can have a conversation of, hey, I started an ABA podcast and some of my influences for us, we're not ABA podcasts because I think other than like some clips Amanda Kelly had put out before us, I don't think there were, we didn't have like a model that we were going off of or at least that I knew.
- [53:09]
D
Of. Yeah. To my, to My knowledge, there were three people who are. That put out podcasts before we did, and that.
- [53:19]
A
Was.
- [53:19]
D
You're. You're correct. Amanda Kelly being one of them. Rick Cabina did a precision teaching podcast. Jabba actually put out a few podcasts. I think Matt Normand did a few shows. And then he threw his hands up saying this is too much work. And oh, oh, DJ Moran had a, A podcast about act. But DJ Moran's a behavior analyst. I mean, he's a psychologist, but he's a behavior analyst. He's a, you know, you can. He calls himself a radical behavior analyst. And. Yeah, but it was, it was mainly ACT based, but it certainly was one of the, one of the shows I listened to when I was kind of thinking about how I wanted to do behavioral observations. So I would say those, those four are the people who, you know, kind of, you know, existed before either of us did. But, you know, I think, yeah, you know, weirdly, kind of like, you know, are you guys familiar with the beer called.
- [54:13]
A
Yingling? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh.
- [54:15]
D
Definitely. So, so if I understand this and people from Pennsylvania can, Can. Can yell at me if I.
- [54:23]
C
Get Pennsylvania, so I might.
- [54:24]
D
Know. So. So there used to be a T shirt. You know, Yingling is like the, the oldest continuously operated brewery in the United States. Right? And so there's a little like, you know, kind of, you know, qualifier there, like where their brew. There were older breweries in Yingling, certainly, but Yingling is the oldest continuously operating brewery in the United States.
- [54:44]
A
So. So we're the Yinglings of.
- [54:46]
D
Podcasts. We're the Yings. We don't need to, we, we don't need to get into which one of us started first. That, that would be, you know, kind of like, you petty or, you know, childish, but, but, you know, so, you know, it's within, you know, a couple of weeks. Yeah, I kid it, but yeah.
- [55:00]
A
So, yeah, literally a week, which, which is terrifying. It's like, how did, how did we all come up with this idea at the same.
- [55:06]
C
Time? We were not.
- [55:08]
A
Friends. We didn't coordinate that. There wasn't a plan of like, oh, in 2026. Matt's gonna be so funny. No, we just. I.
- [55:14]
D
Know. No, no, there was a whole. There was a hole in the marketplace that, you know, I think we just, you know, there was. There was this thing, this, this, this medium that existed that, that behavior analysis hadn't really fully, you know, for lack of a better word, exploited. Had tried to in fits and starts, but there was nothing like ongoing at the time. And at the same time the, the, the, the medium was becoming more popular. I, you know, I remember this guys. I don't know if you guys had this experience, but like trying to get guests on the show, like saying, hey, you know what? I have a, I'd like to interview for a podcast now. A podcast is like a radio show and it's on the Internet. So like I had to go through this like, explanation. I, I kid you not, I kid you not. Like, I would have to go through this with many, many guests at the beginning because podcast was not a household term. You know, it's like if you were into tech and whatnot, you kind of knew what it was. And, and you know, it, it, it really is crazy that I, and I think the two of us, or the four of us, I suppose the two podcasts, you know, we, we kind of caught the wave at the right.
- [56:18]
B
Time.
- [56:19]
D
Yeah. To use a surfing analogy. And it's, it's, it's crazy to see how everything kind of took off after.
- [56:25]
A
That. Yeah, it was, it was sort of post serial making it so people are like.
- [56:29]
D
Podcasts.
- [56:30]
A
A. But before, every celebrity had their own podcast about like, I'm going to tell you about a book I read or I'm going to tell you a thing which what by whatever. So, yeah, I think we did hit that kind of that sweet spot of it wasn't so nobody knows what this is, but it also wasn't something everyone had one of. So. But the thing I kind of wanted us to briefly say, maybe we share one show is because other than a couple of those kind of pre our shows, most of what we probably learned about podcasts came from other podcasts that had nothing to do with behavior analysis. So I'd love to hear everyone's. What was the show that you were like? This actually is not a behavior analytic thing at all. But there was just something about that show that I wanted to bring to my show from a totally different.
- [57:14]
C
Field. I'll go first because I had nothing. I did not listen to.
- [57:17]
A
Podcast. We're on my podcast.
- [57:18]
C
Jackie. I was on it, but I didn't, I didn't listen to it and I didn't listen to podcasts at the.
- [57:26]
A
Time. Okay. Not even your own that you were a guest on? No, before. Before us when I had, I had previous podcast. My own podcast for a.
- [57:33]
B
Year.
- [57:33]
C
Music. I did not.
- [57:36]
A
No. Okay, so he had no.
- [57:39]
D
Experience.
- [57:40]
A
None. How about, how about you.
- [57:43]
B
Donna? Well, I don't know which one you're going to say because I feel like there are two that probably largely influence us together. So I, why don't you go.
- [57:52]
A
First? I have like three or four and I know there's at least one that you never listened to, so you.
- [57:57]
B
Should. Well, you also, you said we could each pick.
- [57:59]
C
One. That's.
- [57:59]
A
Right. I'm not picking three or four. I said I have three or four. So if you pick one, I still got two or.
- [58:05]
B
Three. Okay. Well, there is a offbeat quiz show and radio podcast that we listen to called Good Job Brain, a trivia podcast. I missed a word in there. And it had, at the start of it, it had four different hosts. They each had their own, you know, perspective and personalities on things. And they were really interactive and just fun to listen to. You felt like they were your friends, they told a lot of jokes and, you know, had kept things just really interesting. And it seemed like they were really curious about life and had a lot to bring to their show. And so I think that they were a big influence for us. Even the way at the end we say bye, like that is, is basically like from their show. So that is definitely an.
- [58:48]
C
Influence. I thought I'd just say bye.
- [58:49]
B
Though.
- [58:50]
A
Bye. Are you sure it isn't just after all these episodes of our podcast? It's just, it's incepted into you. Okay, Matt, do you want to go.
- [59:00]
D
Next? Yeah, you know, I, I have a couple and they're, they're more from like the kind of business and entrepreneurial kind of space, if you will. So I listen to a lot of the, the, the Tim Ferriss podcasts. Tim Ferriss show especially early on. I, I, I haven't listened to him in years to be quite actually all the podcasts I'm going to mention I haven't listened to in years. But like at the time of discovering podcasts and thinking about creating my own, I was listening to these people a lot because they were interview based shows mostly. And when I realized that that's the direction I want to take my, you know, kind of new media outreach, you know, because I was actually thinking about, okay, do I, you do a YouTube channel, do I do a blog or do I do a podcast? I want to do something kind of creative. I started listening to these, these shows and it really, you know, they were kind of milso Tim Ferriss. The, there's a guy named Pat Flynn that's out there. He did a lot of shows on, you know, again, it's like a lot of online kind of entrepreneurship. And then there was a, you know, kind of a show called the Solopreneur hour with this guy named Michael o' Neill who's kind of a nutcase in a lovable way, but he had a really kind of loose, long form interview style, not a lot of editing, very relaxed and. And I think between the three of those, I kind of took a lot of influence from how to, you know, in terms of framing how I'd want to have, you know, an interview experience and present it to the.
- [60:31]
A
Audience.
- [60:33]
B
Awesome. Makes a lot of.
- [60:35]
A
Sense. Oh yeah. I wish mine were more in like the related to the field, but I think when I was listening to podcasts, I mostly came to it as I don't have time to play video games, but I used to love them as a kid and I have my own children, so I'm too busy. Is there a podcast that will tell me what video games are available and. Or remind me of the old video games I used to like? And there is an old video game podcast which I do still listen to. I don't hear new video games, just old video games called Retronauts. And I think it was a real influence in that the original host, they have like a rotating set of hosts now, but he was just the most like laid back. And like, I'm talking very analytically about this thing and there was just something about the way the show worked of we're talking about this kind of, you know, silly thing. But they brought this level of both passion and erudition to the topic. And I think it sort of captured in the dip guests like captured like kind of some of the vibe we were going for when we started the show of like, this has to be a show that is both. This has to be a show that is about something. It has to be a show in which we're teaching, but it has to be a show in which we clearly, no matter how smarty it sounds or no matter how in the weeds we get, that sounds like we are just still so passionate and excited and having a good time. And like that show always had that had that vibe which, you know, you're talking about video games. I would hope that you can be like, I'm interested and excited about talking about video games. You know, the same way you could talk about behavior analysis. I don't know if it's quite the same, but that was one that us knew for a very long time. So I think some of the, some of the kind of initial speech patterns and everything I sort of was, was taking from just having heard that show over and over again. So yeah, so the pre Times. And now if you start an ABA podcast these days, you might, I would hope, you're saying, like, oh, I listen to behavioral innovations and maybe inside track some. And I'm, you know, what do I take from those shows I.
- [62:24]
D
Liked? So. So I don't know about you if you guys have this experience, but I, I've had a lot of behavior analysts reach out to me over the years saying, I want to start a podcast. You know, what advice do you have for me? And, And I, I, I actually struggle to answer the question because, you know, I, I don't know, like, if I started Behavioral Observations today, given all the other podcasts out there, like, would I get the traction that I have now? You know, like, both of us, again, benefited from being way out ahead. And I don't mean that in any, like, kind of, you know, superiority type.
- [63:01]
A
Of. No, we just kind of lost the time we.
- [63:04]
D
Started. Yeah. Just. Yeah. Pure timing, you know, and so, you know, like, now there's a lot more kind of. There's. There's a lot many more podcasts out there. And I, you know, I also see this too. Like, like, people, like, want to start a podcast, and they start a podcast and they put out, like, you know, 5, 10, 15, 20 episodes, and the podcasts go away because, yeah, you know, the. The dirty little secret is, like, it's a lot of work. It's almost six o' clock on a Friday night that we're recording this right now. We're, you know, the four of us are committed to this, to. To this process, and we have been for over a decade, you.
- [63:39]
B
Know. Right. And haven't aged at.
- [63:41]
A
All. No, we still look great. Yes. Yeah, we still look.
- [63:43]
D
Great. Clearly.
- [63:44]
C
Clearly. All of my hair, the one thing that I actually really loved is Diana made a slideshow for our 300th episode. And you could see all the lengths of my hair. It was like, short, long, medium. Short, long.
- [63:54]
D
Medium. It's.
- [63:57]
B
True.
- [63:58]
D
Yeah. Was there a bangs, you.
- [64:00]
B
Know? Oh, yeah, of course there.
- [64:01]
C
Was. There's multiple bangs before I cut this pixie cut. Now that I'm growing it out, there'll be bangs again. Don't worry.
- [64:07]
A
Matt. You're coming.
- [64:08]
D
Back. Okay. All right, all right. It's never goodbye. It's just, see you.
- [64:12]
A
Later with the.
- [64:14]
D
Bangs.
- [64:15]
B
Yeah. It's a real commitment.
- [64:17]
D
Though. Yeah, yeah.
- [64:18]
B
Bangs. Bangs and podcasting.
- [64:20]
A
Both. The same amount of commitment. Same.
- [64:23]
D
Commitment.
- [64:23]
C
Right? When people are like, should I get.
- [64:25]
A
Bangs? It's like, well, how's your podcast going? Hell.
- [64:28]
D
Yeah. The answer is always.
- [64:30]
C
Yes. If not then. No. Don't get.
- [64:31]
D
Bangs. Oh.
- [64:34]
B
Boy. I think we should just end it right.
- [64:35]
D
There. Yeah, it's probably time to.
- [64:37]
A
Go. Time to go. Well, I hope everyone enjoyed listening to our year end wrap up for 2025. We got so many exciting things coming out in 2026 so we'll come.
- [64:47]
D
Back and do this again next.
- [64:48]
A
Year. We'll see you there later. They're great. We.
- [64:51]
D
Promise. Why would we tell you.
- [64:52]
A
Now? Yeah, keep them on the edge of their seats. We kept that DRO secret from for years as Larry's.
- [64:57]
D
Name. DRO's are totally.
- [65:00]
A
Fine. We jumped the shark in 2025. I don't know what we got left. All right, well everyone from for all of us here at the Ava Insight track and behavioral observation studios wishing you a happy new year or whenever you're listening to this happy day, I.
- [65:17]
D
Guess.
- [65:17]
C
Yeah.
- [65:18]
B
Yay. All.
- [65:19]
A
Right. All right.
- [65:20]
D
Bye. See.
- [65:22]
A
Ya.