Bonus Episode 39 - Our Therapeutic RPG Demo

Summary

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ABA Inside Track: Bonus Episode 39 – Our Therapeutic RPG Demo

Podcast: ABA Inside Track
Date: February 20, 2026
Episode Theme: Demonstrating the Use of Tabletop Role-Playing Games (TTRPGs) as a Therapeutic Framework in Behavior Analysis

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Overview

This special bonus episode of ABA Inside Track offers listeners a practical demonstration of how tabletop role-playing games (TTRPGs) can be adapted as an engaging framework for developing and practicing therapeutic skills in behavior analysis. Building on concepts discussed in Episode 335, guest Danielle Yang (BCBA, Fantasy Frameworks Therapy) returns as Game Master to guide hosts Rob and Matt (both BCBAs, with Matt also a school psychologist) through a mock group skill-building session. The episode focuses on experiential modeling, highlighting intervention targets like frustration tolerance, acceptance of failure, and behavioral pivoting using BST (Behavior Skills Training) embedded within TTRPG scenarios.

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Key Discussion Points & Episode Structure

1. Setting the Stage and Rationale (00:13 – 07:01)

• Introduction & Purpose: Rob introduces the session's purpose: to show listeners what a therapeutic RPG skills group could look like for practicing skills such as acceptance, problem-solving, and BST embedded in engaging, narrative play.
• Guests: Danielle (the Game Master; experienced in clinical TTRPG use) and Matt (school psychologist/BCBA interested in TTRPGs for social and life skill instruction).
• Therapeutic Structure: Danielle lays out the plan:
  • Session builds on previous work (deep breathing for frustration tolerance).
  • This week: Accepting failure and pivoting to alternative options.
  • Reinforcement: PowerPoint system—points for using target skills, natural consequences for problem-solving, praise as reinforcement, fading reward for previously mastered skills.
  • Use of in-character BST and in-game/non-game prompting.
  • Masked trials via game encounter design (e.g., "Tunnels of Traps").

Notable Quote
“It can make it more immersive, make it more memorable. So we are going to model that. We're going to do BST and then we're going to do some masked trials because Tunnels of Traps...will give us a lot of mass trial opportunities to tolerate failure and try other options.”
— Danielle [05:06]

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2. Character Creation & Game Start (07:01 – 08:53)

• Characters:
  • Rob as "Nyx the Sorcerer" (problem-solving via spells)
  • Matt as "Otto the Cleric" (healing, support, seeking personal growth)
• Narrative Context: Characters are preparing to traverse the "Tunnels of Traps" to retrieve a lost tome, each with their own motivations that reflect the real-life therapy targets (frustration management, flexibility, collaboration).

Notable Moment
“...we just kind of go through with, with a dice system and with these reinforcement systems and everything.”
— Danielle [06:47]

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3. Therapeutic Encounter: In-Game BST & Problem Solving (08:53 – 14:21)

• Mentor NPC: The sage models BST in-character, giving instructions on deep breathing, observing, and pivoting after failure.
• First Challenge: Sage puts Rob/Nyx in a headlock as a teachable moment for tolerating failure, adapting, and choosing new strategies.

Notable Quote
“True failure is not having something you tried be unsuccessful. The true failure is ceasing to try.”
— The Sage (Danielle) [09:23]

• Behavioral Mechanisms: Feedback, modeling, praise delivered both in and out of character; points awarded for skill use.

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4. Tunnels of Traps: Mass Trials & Applied Flexibility (14:21 – 26:00)

• Challenges: Players encounter traps (pendulum axes), environmental obstacles (darkness, traps on ground), and must repeatedly use flexibility, accept failed attempts, and brainstorm new strategies.
• Behavioral Reinforcement: Real-time awarding of PowerPoints. Natural consequences embedded (e.g., getting trapped or damaged when skill fails, but immediately prompted to try alternatives).
• GM as Clinician: Pauses for educational commentary, describing how massed trials are worked into the game for repeated practice, prompting, and reinforcement.

Notable Quote
“I think you both just accepted that failure really well. So go ahead and write down a PowerPoint.”
— Danielle [18:05]

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5. Unexpected Setbacks & Group Problem Solving (26:00 – 44:02)

• Encounter: Players run from a blind cave troll, only to fall and trigger more failures (tripping, stumbling) — provides naturally occurring opportunities to reinforce skill use and acceptance.
• Complex Challenge: Enter a mushroom-people village; attempts at direct problem-solving are misunderstood or escalate conflict (e.g., accidental “ghost” myth trigger).
• Prompting and Generalization: GM uses increasingly overt prompts, in and out of game (e.g., a whisper on the wind echoing the Sage, direct reminders of skills).
• Emphasis on Flexibility: Trial-and-error with verbal communication, then brainstorming alternative movement (jumping, spell use, creative teamwork) to solve spatial puzzle without harming NPCs.

Notable Quotes
“I like your pivoting. Go ahead and take another PowerPoint, Rob. Couldn't quite tell if that was a full accepting of your failure or not...”
— Danielle [37:03]

“Try your master's voice.”
— The Sage (as a magical prompt) [38:30]

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6. Skill Generalization, Success, and Post-Session Debrief (44:02 – 52:12)

• Victory: Use of skills culminates in characters earning enough PowerPoints to unlock their “inner dragon” fire, solving the final puzzle and advancing to the next level of the dungeon.
• Metacognitive Reflection: Danielle (GM/clinician) explicitly cues players for real-life generalization, asking what lessons or strategies from the game they can apply in their own context.
• Client Responses:
  • Rob: “If something doesn't work out, it's just like a game. I can just...roll again. I can try another thing again, and I can always do the breathing if I get stuck.” [49:38]
  • Matt: “Yeah, I'm going to persevere. I'm going to try to be creative and rely on others to help out as well.” [50:13]
• Facilitation Commentary: Summary of where in-game prompting or direct instruction would fit, benefits of out-of-character praise, and natural fading of reinforcement.

Notable Quote
“It is very fun to play and be. And be imaginative, especially in these sorts of situations...”
— Rob [57:56]

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7. Framework Flexibility & Practical Tips (52:12 – 64:29)

• BST Adaptations: BST (instruction, modeling, rehearsal, feedback) can be delivered in-game or out-of-character, flexibly as needed for engagement.
• Session/Encounter Design: Start with therapeutic targets (SD, reinforcer, skill), then wrap in narrative/thematic context. Facilitation techniques can be as hands-on or collaborative as needed.
• Client Considerations: Discussion of character selection, narrative framing, use of prompts, narrative pacing, and managing overgeneralization or undergeneralization.
• Skill Progression: Gradually fade massed practice and artificial reinforcement; increase complexity, intermix skills, lean into more natural consequences as clients progress.

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8. Generalization, Client Participation, and Play Styles (64:29 – 63:04)

• Promoting Generalization: Incorporate client input, allow narrative co-creation; encourage connection between in-game problem-solving and real-life challenges.
• Play Styles: Acknowledge and adapt to client preferences—some may prefer in-character immersion, others more detached narration; both are workable with appropriate behavioral targets.
• Therapist Tips: Use familiar tropes, pull from video game culture for accessibility, adjust structure as appropriate for group or individual needs.

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9. Resources, Continuing Education, and Closing (64:29 – End)

• Professional Development: Danielle offers a 10-week CE course for clinicians on integrating TTRPGs in behavioral therapy.
• Contact Info: Encouragement for practitioners to reach out for collaboration, sharing of resources.
• Closing Thoughts: Affirmation that this is just one practical example—therapists can customize and creatively adapt TTRPGs for a wide range of clients and behavioral goals.

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• “True failure is not having something you tried be unsuccessful. The true failure is ceasing to try.”
  — The Sage (Danielle) [09:23]

• “I can always get another roll. That's beautiful.”
  — Danielle [50:02] (responding to Rob’s insight)

• “If something doesn't work out, it's just like a game. I can just...roll again. I can try another thing again, and I can always do the breathing if I get stuck.”
  — Rob [49:38]

• “It is the tool you make it be.”
  — Danielle [61:06]

• “There's something about when you are playing a game...skills feel more fluid in this sort of 'I'm playing the part of someone who's really good at these skills.'”
  — Rob [52:12]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:13 – Introduction, purpose, and guest intros
• 03:42 – Danielle explains session setup and the skills targeted
• 09:23 – Sage models BST and reframing of failure
• 14:44 – Pausing for in-game BST demonstration explanation
• 18:05 – Points awarded for accepting failure
• 26:00 – Cave troll encounter and problem-solving
• 37:03 – Problem-solving with mushroom people; failed charm and pivoting
• 49:38 – Debrief: real-life application of skills learned
• 54:01 – Commentary on flexibly prompting and BST
• 55:36 – Discussion of encounter design and therapist facilitation
• 64:29 – Danielle mentions continuing education resources

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Conclusion

This episode provides a robust, engaging model for implementing TTRPGs in behavioral therapy, emphasizing flexibility, creativity, client engagement, and real-world skill generalization. It showcases the value of narrative, collaborative play for building meaningful social, emotional, and cognitive behaviors, and demystifies the process for clinicians curious about integrating games in their practice.

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Resources Mentioned:

• Danielle Yang’s CE course on TTRPGs in behavior analysis (link provided in episode notes)
• ABA Inside Track episode 335 for underlying research discussion

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Contact:

• Danielle Yang: Via her website or the email linked in episode notes
• ABA Inside Track: For podcast questions, feedback, or follow-up

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“You can always get another roll.”

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hey, everybody. Welcome to ABA Inside Track, the podcast that's like reading in your car, but safer. This is a special bonus episode of the main show. If you were listening recently, then you heard episode 335 about role playing games in behavior analysis with special guest Daniel Yang. And one of the things we talked about was how one might use an RPG as a framework for a skill session, whether it's an act session or a social skill session or really any sort of skill that you could probably do with bst. And we thought, wouldn't it be nice to demonstrate what such a session might look like? So I asked Jackie and Diana to join and they said, we don't want to play RPGs. So fortunately, I was able to get Danielle to come back to GM a little kind of a role play within a role play of what an RPG skill session could look like for a behavior analyst. So, Danielle, thank you so much for coming back to record a little bonus session with us.

[A]

Oh, thank you. I'm excited and nervous.

[B]

There's something about the role play when you're role playing with clients, like, this is my job. When you're doing it with other adults is a little silly, but that's. That's part of the fun. We talk. We talked about pros. You might not want to use this as a technique if you hate pretending. So there you go. And since we can't, you could play with one person, but that seemed a little strange. So we were very fortunate to have a new. A new. A new voice, I guess I should say. On the podcast, we're also joined by special guest Matt Carter. Matt, thank you for. For coming to play with us today.

[C]

Yeah, thanks for having me.

[B]

So, Danielle, you introduced yourself on the episode, but if you want to. If people hadn't heard that episode yet or they're here listening to them in the wrong order, or it's been a while. Do you mind just doing a quick. A quick introduction of yourself again?

[A]

Yeah. I'm Danielle Yang. I'm a BCBA at Fantasy Frameworks Therapy. I have been using tabletop role playing games clinically for the past eight years in various settings and ways. And it's really fun. I love it.

[B]

Awesome. And. And then, Matt, how did you. How did you come to get roped into this, into this recording that was 100% you rope.

[C]

But I am, you know, school psychologist, BCBA. I do a lot of social skill instruction in groups, and I have been curious about using tabletop role playing games to teach social skills and other kinds of valuable Life skills to kids.

[B]

And Matt also has allowed, allowed himself the, the luxury of getting to join in some of my RPGs recently. So he's, he's really been stuck. I told him I'd give him some extra experience if, if he came and played with us tonight. So it's a little, little bonus.

[C]

I didn't know that. That's great.

[B]

Yeah, you get a free talent of your choice in our next, in our next game.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Little reinforcement there. So this for, for folks listening, just to make it a kind of a little, little more realistic, as realistic as it, as it can be. We're going to, I'm just going to turn everything over to Danielle. She's going to do a little bit of introduction to sort of set the stage. And then after that, we are just going to be sort of playing the session. Matt and I will just sort of be playing ourselves in the context of, you know, needing some clinical support. And so we're in this session and we like the role playing framework to practice these skills. And then at the end we'll come back and do a little, little debrief. But Danielle, please take it away.

[A]

Okay. Well, I am here with my clients, Rob and Matt, who last week in our session we had worked on. So Rob and Matt are needing to work on tolerating some frustrations when things don't go their way and some problem solving skills. And we're in this place in our, in our therapy where last week we worked on deep breathing. When something doesn't go your way, take some deep breaths. And, and this week we're moving on to tolerating. Sorry. This week we're moving on to accepting failure and then pivoting to identify other options. So the way we're doing this in the RPG is we have, we do have a PowerPoint point system where they, their characters are getting or charging an inner power that they have with every time that they use target behavior. So last week we really focused on deep breathing. They were getting power points. But this week we're going to fade that back to where they're just getting praise for the deep breathing. And the power points is only for this week's skill, which is going to be the accepting failure and pivoting, trying new options. New options. So where they're at in their story, their characters are on their way to these infamous tunnels of Traps trademark that are going to try their ability to accept failure and move on. So this week when they come into session, we might start with reviewing how they did with homework, how they did with generalizing their deep breathing skills at home and any other skills we're working on. We're probably not just working on one skill a week, but for the sake of this roleplay, this is kind of what it looks like. So when we start here in a minute, you're going to see I'm going to do some in character bst. So behavior skills training from an npc, a non player character inside the game. You don't have to do that. I do out of character BST all the time, that's totally fine. But in character is fun and could be useful if you're struggling with some engagement or it could just, it can make it more immersive, make it more memorable. So we are going to model that. We're going to do BST and then we're going to do some masked trials because Tunnels of traps, I named it thus because that'll give us a lot of mass trial opportunities to tolerate failure and try other options. You'll see them get the point system PowerPoints, but you'll also see them get natural reinforcers of, you know, you, you accept failure, you pivot and try something different and it works and contact more of that natural environment, the natural contingencies of the environment there. You also might see some, least to most prompting if they're struggling with the skill at first and anything else. Is that a good intro?

[B]

I think that lays out what we're going to do nice and clear. We'll do a little dice rolling too. So we're always fun. So make sure you have your dice handy and you can play along at home.

[A]

Yeah. So it is a game structure. We're not playing any specific system right now, but Rob and Matt both have characters in mind that they can introduce for a minute and then we'll just kind of go through with, with a dice system and with these reinforcement systems and everything.

[B]

So again, for our purposes, our characters, we're not super. We didn't spend a lot of time rolling them up. I don't know how many pictures I've drawn though that, that can be a really important part of the, of, of the session, working with your clients, you know, so they really have some ownership of the character. But for, for fun, Danielle just asked us to pick characters we had played in the past so we could be creative on the spot and do a little improv. So I am, I am, I am Nyx the Sorcerer will be my character in game. And I have kind of a, an elf elvish guy. I have big robes, a big staff And I can cast a lot of spells. That's mostly how I. How I go about my day. Solving problems.

[C]

All right. And I'm Otto, the cleric. I can cast some healing spells and also have some robes, maybe. Maybe a mace along. Something along those lines.

[A]

Awesome.

[B]

Well, we will get ready.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, we'll get right into it. So, Otto and Nyx, you awake at camp on the morning that you will be traversing the tunnels of traps. You have decided previously that you would come here and go into the tunnels. What are you looking for in the tunnels?

[B]

I'm searching for an ancient tome that has the most powerful spells in existence so that I can get revenge on the baron who stole my land. My family's land.

[A]

Cool. Yes, you are. Matt, Are you helping him, or you have your own goals?

[C]

I'm helping him because I see his knowledge and wisdom as a way for me to uncover my forgotten past.

[A]

Wonderful. So these heroes arrive at the tunnels of traps. They camp the night before they. They wake up now, and they. They've been traveling with their mentor, the. The old sage, who is a. Who is a master in the old magic, which these two have some connection to because they are both chosen ones who have the inner dragon power within them. So they. They wake. You wake up at camp with your. With your master. And as. As he does every morning, he is. He has a campfire going, and he is boiling some tea, and he gathers you around, and. And as he pours himself some tea, he tells you the tunnels are not always what they seem. You can't always get through in the way you first expect. So he stares you down and makes sure you're listening. If you're starting to feel frustrated, remember your deep dragon breaths. You still have that power. And once you have your inner dragon's intuition activated, observe what is the situation before you look around. What other options might you have for managing it? Because true failure is not having something you tried be unsuccessful. The true failure is ceasing to try. And he goes to sip some tea, and you could tell he wanted that to be a very meaningful moment for you. But then he goes to sip some tea and completely chokes on it.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Oh, it's too hot. Oh. Oh, it's too hot. Excuse me. He goes. And he grabs his water scan and goes to pour it into the tea to cool it off, and no water comes out. Oh. And he gets kind of sly grin. I'm out of water. Hmm. What else could I try? Ah. He blows on the tea, takes a sip. The tea is perfect. There Is always a way. And this is what seems to be a frail old man, but he sometimes surprises you as he does right after this. He. With a speed completely unexpected of his. His stature, he puts his tee down, runs over, grabs Rob and puts you in a headlock and says, your turn. Looking between the two of you. Let's practice.

[B]

Okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna just try to, like. Like I'm gonna elbow him real hard in the back to try to get him to lose his breath and let me go.

[A]

Yes, yes, you're trying something. Oh, it seems it's not working. This. This guy. I mean, he looks so. So frail, but you're elbowing him, and it feels like you're elbowing a st. Statue. Man, this guy is. Got some tight muscles there.

[B]

I don't know. I don't. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Could I. Am I able to try to flip him over me? Maybe instead you use my. Use my agility to try to flip him over me and try that.

[A]

Yes. So this. This. This works. You go to elbow him, and then you go to flip him, and changing the way that you're. That you're. Adjust that you're going at. At. It does work. Do you want to describe kind of how that goes down?

[B]

I sort of, you know, flip. He's. He's really good at, you know. You know, I. I realize he's teaching me in the moment, so I flip him over, and then he kind of does a flip, but he lets me go while doing it. I'm a little embarrassed because I know he was trying to teach me something, and I probably should have, you know, breathed and thought of it quicker instead of getting frustrated. So I'll try to do that again. I tell them, you know, master, I'm sorry, I. I will use my dragon breath next time. I. I know I need to calm down. I can't just do the one thing and then get frustrated.

[A]

He says, ah, but you did accept the failure, and you did try something different. Well done. And with that, your inner dragon also, you feel it swell, and you're becoming more worthy of that power. So go ahead and write down two PowerPoints, one for accepting the failure and one for trying something different.

[B]

All right, so

[A]

way to go there, Rob. So your master settles down and looks back. He kind of shimmies to the side, and you're not sure why he would do that, but he shimmies to the side at first and then looks at you both and. And says, remember, there is always a way. And Then he starts to turn transparent. His body starts to fade away and he disappears into an ethereal green mist that floats off on the breeze. And. And then you realize this. This guy has always had a flair for the dramatic. Why he had sidled over to the side is he had positioned himself right in front of the entrance of the tunnels. And now he is floating away. And you have your destiny before you.

[B]

What a showman. All right, Otto, I guess we got nothing. No choice but to head into the cave. The tunnels of traps. You ready?

[C]

Y.

[B]

All right, let's. Why don't you go first because you got a mace and I'm. We're all wearing robes, but I don't have. I'm not very. I'm not a strong guy. So why don't you go. Why don't you go first and I'll. I'm going to light my staff so that we have a light so we can see in the tunnels.

[A]

I'm Just pause there real quick. I think Rob had alluded to it already, but just to tell any of our listeners that didn't catch it, we did some in character BST right there. The NPC was able to do the instruction, the modeling, the roleplay, and then some feedback. Yeah, it could have been better. I'm sitting here judging myself. But we did some in character BST and now we'll go forward with our masked trials.

[B]

We're heading into the tunnels and we can see because I'm assuming it's dark in here. Is there any other natural light or it's just for my staff?

[A]

Nope, just. Just from. Just from your staff. So you remind me what you were having Otto go first with his mace, but you. You've lit your staff and are behind

[B]

the light behind us.

[A]

The light behind you.

[B]

Well, I mean it's behind. Behind Otto.

[A]

Behind me. Okay. Okay. Well, you start to descend into the. The. The tunnel are big enough for you to walk in. All. All made of stone and it descends downwards. Not too steep. You're able to keep your footing as. As you go down. And as expected, the. The sunlight eventually can no longer. Is no longer providing you any light. It is just the light from your staff. And. But the. The way that you're. The light from your staff is casting shadows does add an eerie feel to this. You. You're not always sure if. If you're seeing something scurry past or if it's just the way that Otto is moving his mace, but there's. You're not seeing as clearly as you would have with with the sunlight, of course. And you go down and is there anything else you're specifically doing looking for?

[B]

Well, the tunnel's a trap, so we should probably keep an eye out for traps. But my care. I mean, I don't. I don't know. Matt, is your character any good at traps? Like, I'm not a traps person as a sorcerer, so I. I just kind of looking around side to side, you know, keep keeping my. You know, keeping on my toes.

[C]

I. I'm vigilant enough to be looking out for them. I'm sure I can't avoid them entirely.

[A]

Why don't you go ahead and you can just each roll well for how well you're looking.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For the listeners, just to add a picture, I'm using my special Christmas. My Christmas dice right now. So I got a 16.

[C]

I got a two.

[A]

Okay. Okay. Well, Rob. Not Rob Nix, is feeling very good about his ability to see what he can with his light. Unfortunately, Otto is in front and is not doing as well in the looking department. And you do. You're taking. Taking your steps, and all of a sudden, one of your steps sounds different. Everything was on stone. And then there's like a hollow metallic sound. And, you know, you blew it. And luckily, you stop just in time as a axe comes swinging out of the side of the. Of the wall. There are slits on either side of this tunnel wall, and it starts penduluming right in front of your face. Otto, if you have longer hair, it has sliced some of your bangs off right there. And you're faced with this. This trap you set off right in front of you.

[B]

Whoa. Otto, don't move.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I don't know if you should take a step back or if that'll make it worse, because you're on the. You're on the stone right now. Right. So you're.

[C]

I'm gonna freeze in case I figure this out.

[A]

Just jumping in real quick for Robin, Matt. I think you both just accepted that failure really well. So go ahead and write down a PowerPoint. Oh. And then continue.

[C]

All right. There's always a way.

[B]

All right. I'll hold my light up so that you can sort of see a little bit better. So you can look around and see, but you're in front. I can't see very much other than this big ax in. In front of you. And. And that's kind of as far as I can go. Okay.

[C]

All right. How fast is this axe swinging? Can I. Can I maneuver around it?

[A]

Go ahead and make. Make a roll. Not. Not to maneuver around it, but just your. Your deductions for how. How nimble you are to do that.

[C]

Okay, 13.

[A]

And I was. I was late. But I'll give you first, another PowerPoint. Both of you. I like the. Using the. The light and the maneuver. Looking at the timing, you're both pivoting to other options. I love that. But unfortunately, this next option, as you do look at the timing of it, you think if you. If you try jumping through, you're. You're going to. You're going to get nicked.

[C]

Okay, well, I guess that's not going to work.

[A]

I love the accepting failure, though. Matt, you are killing it today. Take another PowerPoint. Well, all right.

[C]

I guess I will try to maybe stretch out with my mace and try to slow the axe down a little bit.

[A]

Okay. And so this does. This does work. I'm going to let you. Let you describe how that goes down.

[C]

Well, I take out the mace, I reach it up into the air and just catch the end of the axe with it to try to stop its momentum, slow it down. It hits with a loud clang and doesn't stop completely, but slows down just enough to make it a little bit more maneuverable.

[A]

It's a very, very satisfying clang and slows down just in time for you guys to squeeze on around there. Take another PowerPoint, Matt. I love that new idea. You're being very creative. I'm going to pause there really quick and just kind of fill in the listeners that we just did. I didn't even count. I mean, usually I'd be taking data and I'd have a better track of. We just did a lot of trials of both of those skills and lots of opportunities especially for Matt to do that. I did. I would want to lean more towards giving him more success at the beginning, assuming this is a skill he's been struggling with. Right.

[C]

Woo.

[B]

We high five in the darkness.

[A]

I love it. But do you hit each other's hands?

[B]

It's a loud reverberation through the tunnels, which might tell monsters we're here. But let's have fun.

[A]

Oh, celebration is worth it. You high five and move forward.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

We're continuing on. Same. Same order. Same order. Matt, you want to take the front again and I'll do the light.

[C]

Yeah, I guess so.

[B]

You did great against the axe trap. I, you know, would have chopped my staff in half.

[C]

I'm stumbling around in the dark here.

[B]

I'll hold it. I'll hold it by your feet. If you want to look down at your feet.

[C]

That Might be smart.

[B]

Okay. I'm holding down your feet because we know that's where some of the traps are.

[C]

These robes are getting in the way too.

[A]

If we pause again, this would be a great time if you really want to give your clients a chance to now have something come from the ceiling. But it kind of depends what their frustration tolerance and everything is. But I love it. Okay, we're. We're going from our feet and continuing to look, and you guys continue down the tunnel. It does start to level out, which you've heard that the tunnel kind of goes down in. Into, like, some. There's multiple levels of this. Of this. This tunnel dungeon. And you are now on the ground of the first level. So you're progressing towards that great tome that is at the bottom. And you continue down the tunnel, watching your feet. You're able to easily avoid any stubbed toes. Unfortunately, there aren't any more pressure plates in the near future. And you continue walking, checking. Checking your feet. And. Until you hear a loud snuff grunt that shocks you both into looking up and looking around. Probably right.

[B]

Take my. I'm gonna get my staff with light. I'm lifting it up slowly. I don't know. Do we. Do we see some, like, feet or anything?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So you do the slow lift as it reveals these big, ugly, bare troll feet. And continue slowly lifting as a camera pans up to see the. His giant legs, big gray stomach, loincloth, all the way up to the grotesque face of a cave trolley with fangs. And just kind of staring. Staring at you. Not. Not moving towards you, but staring at you and grunting. Grunts. Grunts again. The tunnel around him. He takes it up. He takes up the whole thing. In fact, you're not even sure if he could move towards you. Might be with some. He probably could, but it would be with some difficulty he takes up this tunnel.

[B]

Okay, let's bet. Auto.

[A]

Quick.

[B]

Back up, back up. Cave trolls are usually really weak against fire. So I'm just gonna, like, get my staff out. I'm like flamethrower. Like a burning hands through the staff. I'm just gonna blast it with fire because it's gonna knock this thing straight out. Here we go. Should I roll for it?

[A]

Yes, go ahead and roll.

[B]

All right, I roll. I got a four.

[A]

You got a four?

[B]

I got a four.

[A]

Okay. So I love how you're pulling on past experience. Cave trolls are weak to fire. I'm gonna. I'm gonna shoot this fire at him. Unfortunately, you're still in shock from seeing Seeing the thing, and you shoot completely to the side. It ricochets. Is it like a bolt? I'm picturing a bolt ricocheting. But if it's not, it could just be.

[B]

It's like a big, like. Like a plume of fire.

[A]

Okay. Big plume of fire straight into the side of the wall. Charring. Charring the wall, but not hitting this cave troll. He. Very slow. I'm thinking very slow. Dumb troll turns, looks at the fire, turns back to look at you, and brings in his eyebrows, stares at you and a much louder.

[B]

Okay, all right, well, I took my turn, Matt, Way you go.

[A]

I love the accepting failure, though. Rob, go ahead and take a PowerPoint.

[B]

I mean, you know, it's a roll. You know, the nice thing about roles is I usually understand when they don't go my way.

[C]

All right, I'm going to try a slightly different approach. Maybe I'm going to stretch out my arms and cast a spell of a blinding light that just kind of emanates from my hands to at least distract this troll or incapacitate him so that we can maneuver past.

[A]

Okay, go ahead and roll for that idea. 17. Okay, so you. Yeah, it does work, and just in time, because this troll is looking. He looks angrily at you guys while you start to decide your other plan. And then just as you're going to raise your hands and blind him, you notice he starts to pull out a club that's been. He's been holding out his side and is about to move towards, coming at to swing the club at you. And you cast your blinding light. And you know, the coral's back, blinded, hands up to face. I don't know if you want to add any more description to that, Matt.

[C]

Yeah, it's wonderful.

[A]

So covering his eyes, backing into the wall, turning away so he can't Isn't continue to be blinded while you guys can move on past.

[B]

Okay, so, yeah, we'll run past him. I don't really, really want to fight this draw.

[C]

Let's go.

[B]

Okay, so we run. We run. We're running past and we're running down the. Running down the.

[A]

I love the idea to run. You're running down the tunnels, and they do start to descend a little bit again. And Rob, you trip. Nick, Trip is running. He trips his. His toe hits a rock and fall on your face, man.

[B]

Okay, what happens? Do I get damaged or something? Or do I. You want to roll?

[A]

Yeah. Why don't you roll for damage? If you get damage or not.

[B]

Okay. Which.

[A]

Make a save. If you can catch yourself, make A save.

[B]

Okay, I got a 12.

[A]

Okay. Why don't we actually give you two bludgeoning damage? So just mark down. You do get down and scrape some elbows.

[B]

Oh, fine. Okay. Two damage.

[A]

Well, I love that accepting failure. Rob, I didn't even make you roll. You just tripped, and you still were able to do it. I just want to point that out.

[B]

I know.

[A]

You're doing awesome.

[B]

There's only two damage. I mean, I'll be okay, I think. Okay, I got my. Where is my Claire? Oh, does auto trip over me now?

[A]

You want to roll for it because you're. You're behind right now. Or are you in front?

[B]

I think. I don't know.

[A]

I.

[B]

We didn't really decide. I assumed I was in front. I seemed like I'd be. I'm a character that would run in front.

[A]

Let's do it. Nyx was so afraid, he ran in front of Otto and then trips, and now Otto might trip over him. Go ahead and roll.

[C]

Oh, no. Okay.

[B]

All right.

[C]

11.

[A]

Okay, I am. I'm gonna have you trip over him, but you won't take damage. How's that?

[C]

Yeah, that's fair. As long as I don't get. As long as I'm out of the reach of the troll.

[A]

So you. You run. Yeah, he falls flat right in front of you. You run into. I don't know. Do you want to describe how you go down?

[C]

Did I trip over. I tripped over Nyx.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

All right, so I'm. I'm running in a panic to get away from this troll as quickly as possible. I hear. I hear Nick's say, whoa, just bite it. But I wasn't quick enough to react and tripped over what I assumed to be him, and then kind of rolled a little bit, but was able to to find some soft spot in the rocky cave and tumble a little bit and come out unscathed. Mostly unscathed.

[A]

Okay. Except for your pride. You've both fallen. Not even a trap around, and you've both now fallen on the ground in the tunnels of traps.

[B]

Oh, man, this tunnel starting to kick our butts.

[A]

Rob, did I give you a PowerPoint for that?

[B]

I think so. I have five right now.

[A]

I've not been keeping track, but told

[B]

us to keep track because sometimes I know you can have a data. Have like an RBT or someone helping with the. With the data collection. So we said we pick up the slack.

[A]

Okay, so you have the. Yeah, I know. I praised for it. You didn't go to accept that failure, even though there wasn't even A role. It was, you know, just me giving you that failure, and if I didn't give you a PowerPoint, you should get one for that.

[B]

Okay. I wasn't sure. I thought you might be at the thinning reinforcement phase of the. Of the encounter, so I just. I took it as just the praise, but I'll take one.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that could be too. I. And I guess since we're already kind of having this conversation, we'll pause here. I. He had made that comment about, well, it's a role, and I can accept if it was a role earlier. So I wanted to make sure I gave him a failure that was just, I'm the environment, and I say so to. To see if we could give some practice with a different kind of exemplar there. Which he still did. Great. So

[B]

it outed my rule governed behavior.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now I have to learn a new skill,

[A]

so we'll go on ahead. You said you have five PowerPoints. How many do you have, Matt?

[C]

Four.

[A]

Okay, so you continue on into the tunnels. And actually, if we can do a pause of a pause of a pause, like, actually edit this out part. I haven't done any prompting.

[B]

Next one. Next one. I can get crabby at that one.

[A]

Okay. I'm like, I don't want to fade the reinforcement because I haven't even had any. I mean, I guess I might at this point, but I knew you were going to show. You just haven't yet.

[B]

I was gonna. I was gonna. I was gonna struggle with the troll. And then I realized I rolled, like, like bad. And then I was like, oh, well, that's. You know, I'm not. I'm not as frustrated. Like, then I was like, oh, well, I'm not frustrated because it's a. It's a role. Like, that's the game. That's how the game works. I guess I could have been. If I'd gotten a good role. I wasn't sure if you'd be like, oh, that didn't work. No, this. This troll is immune to fire. And then I was going to be, like, petulant. Like, that's not the rules. The rules don't say that. That's not how it works. I should have gotten. But then I just rolled fast.

[A]

Yeah, well, that's just like, I don't. You know, I don't know my clients in this situation. No.

[B]

No worries. I figured. I figured if that one didn't do it, like, the next. Like, the next encounter, you know, I'll. I'll try something and. And you know, now it's an environmental thing, like, nope, doesn't work. Can't do it. Everyone's mad or, you know, whatever happens. And then I'll. I can. I can give you a chance to prompt.

[A]

Okay. And so I think we'll just do. We'll do like the fungi folk. You can. I can prompt there and then. And then we'll go on to, you know.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

Eight power points is just what you need or something.

[B]

Yeah. All right, Dan, come back in right here.

[A]

Okay, so you have put some distance between yourself and the troll. How do you proceed down the tunnels now?

[B]

Well, let's not run again. That didn't go so well.

[A]

Take another PowerPoint, Rob. Thank you for pivoting. Sometimes things don't work out one way, and you can. So you try something different. In fact, your inner dragon surging with power, so much so that you can almost taste the fire breath. That power you get when you have enough power points is so close. You are becoming more and more worthy of your inner dragon.

[B]

All right, why don't I. Otto, why don't I take the lead? I have the light. I feel like looking down's been no good. Looking up's been no good. I'll just stay. I'll stand in front of.

[C]

I can conjure. Also, I can generate light from my hands as I did with the blinding light. I can just keep it a little bit less blinding to give myself way to see.

[A]

That's creative.

[B]

And we'll just. Let's just kind of slowly, slowly go. Because we've gone through a couple things. I feel like we got to be near the end of this tunnel, which means it's going to be rough. So let's. We're going to go slow and be prepared.

[A]

So we both have lights. And who was in front?

[B]

I'll go. I'll go in front this time. I feel bad. I've gone to the bed.

[A]

Okay, so we're going slow. We've got Nyx in front with his light kind of positioned more central. And you're. You're feeling pretty good. You're going slow. You got your light central. You've learned from the traps so far, and you're applying that learning to the traps ahead. And so you're feeling good about this plan as you focus straight ahead for anything obstructing the tunnels, anything that might come out or be there. And just as you're feeling good about this decision, you hear a crunch and realize, I decided to move my light up instead of looking at my feet. And now I'm stepping on something. But you have stepped on something. Did I lose you?

[B]

No, no, I'm okay. I'm going to hold my light down. What did I step on? Is it a trap? I step on a. A carnivorous plant. What is it?

[A]

So after hearing the. The. The crunch, it also then kind of squelches, and then there are tiny little screams. And as you look down, you see little mushroom people surrounding your foot and hitting it with clubs.

[B]

Oh, are they yelling? Are they hurting me at all, or. It's just more. Oh, okay.

[A]

They're looking up at you and. And speaking, though. They're yelling.

[B]

They're yell. Okay, but I can't hear what they're saying.

[A]

You could try.

[B]

Okay, I'm gonna get. I'm gonna get down low and try to hear what they're saying, because maybe we could like to apologize or talk to them and maybe they can, like, show us a way out. Out of the. Out of the cave?

[A]

Yeah, you get down low, you can hear and understand. And they're. They're like, you dumb giant. That's our house. We just built that house. Get out of here.

[B]

Okay, like, could we just leave them there? Are there other houses? Like, what's. Is

[A]

you. You look around, and this whole. This little mushroom village is spread 2 yards in front of you and across the whole. The whole tunnel.

[B]

Okay, so I'm gonna whisper because I assume my voice is, like, super loud. I say, we're very sorry about smushing your house. We're trying to get through. Can we go through your village? I'm trying to be very charming because I want. I want them to say yes.

[A]

And I like. I like what you're going for. Unfortunately, these mushroom people have some mythology about whisper sounds, apparently, because you start speaking and they're all. It's the ghost of whispers past. And I'm going off of your dice here. All right, dice. The ghosts of whispering. And they start running around even more. Even more escalated than before.

[B]

That's not in the monster manual, Danielle. This is ridiculous. They should have. Can I try to charm them again? Let me try in a normal voice. I'll try in a normal voice. How about that?

[A]

I like your pivoting. Go ahead and take another PowerPoint, Rob. Couldn't quite tell if that was a full accepting of your failure or not,

[B]

but, I mean, it was not great. I could have done better.

[A]

Okay, well, you're recognizing it, right? That's the first step. That's great. Okay, take one for the pivoting.

[B]

Okay. All right. I say, can we go? I'm not a ghost. We're just travelers. Please let us go through your village.

[A]

I want to let you all for that one.

[B]

I got 15.

[A]

15. You would really scare these mushroom people.

[B]

Oh, come on.

[A]

They. Ah, the ghost now. He's trying to talk to us. Don't listen.

[B]

I don't know. I. I don't want to crush their stupid village. I. I don't know this. I. I don't know. I don't. I can't talk to them. I could. We could burn their village, but that seems bad. I don't want to do that. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

[A]

As you're. Nyx is really feeling this confusion, right? And that's part of this experience. He does see a glimmer of the green mist from before. Green ethereal mist and a small whisper on the breeze. Try your master's voice.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I love that deep breathing. Rob from last week. That was great.

[B]

Well, if we can't go through. I don't know. Let me look to the side. I'm going to hold my light to the side. I'm kind of sorry, everybody. Sorry. They. I don't think we can calm them down very well. So if I look over, like, kind of. If I. I look around, like, I'm going to look over to the side maybe, like, is there like a pass through there that we missed before? Like, I'm. I'm going to look around instead of there. Something else we could do?

[A]

Yeah. Take a PowerPoint for trying again and looking for more out of the box options. As you do look around specifically for a path. You would see that this village does sprawl, the whole tunnel. But as you're looking closely, you can see a few empty patches. That might be just far enough for some footprints if you. If you're careful.

[B]

Okay. What do you think, Otto? Should we try to like, jump. Jump through here? Do you have any other ideas?

[C]

I don't have any other ideas. I've been really racking my brain on this one and.

[B]

Yeah, and we could just kill the mushroom village and like, just Godzilla their whole town.

[C]

Yeah. I don't want to do that.

[B]

That seems cruel. I don't think that's our. We're not. We're not those kinds of characters for jumping in patches.

[A]

I haven't directly heard from you, Matt, but your inner dragon knows that you've been. You've been really racking your brain. You've been thinking about other Options and. Oh, that's an awesome skill. It's what we're working on today. Your inner dragon does swell with that power. Go and take a PowerPoint for that, too.

[B]

Cool. All right, so I guess we will very carefully and slowly kind of like move, like, lift our leg and go, like, one space and sort of pause in the next space and just try to kind of climb through the village in these little vacant mushroom lots. I guess they haven't developed that area of the neighborhood. We're gonna climb to see if we could get through.

[A]

Okay, let's have you each roll.

[B]

Okay. Come on, come on, come on. 10.

[A]

Guys aren't liking you today. It's not Christmas anymore, Rob.

[B]

No, I guess not. Get my January dice,

[A]

Matt.

[C]

Nine.

[A]

Oh, okay. It was a good idea, and your inner dragons are happy that you tried. You're able to step through a couple of the empty spots successfully. You get to where you're. I remember I said. I think I said it was like, two yards across. You're a good yard in when you do step on a small mushroom structure.

[B]

Oh. Oh, geez. All right. I don't know. Maybe it is time to just crush these. I mean, we're just gonna be killing mushrooms.

[C]

Can you cast any spells that make us float over or anything like that?

[B]

Oh, okay. I didn't even think about that. Let me see.

[C]

Oh,

[B]

I could cast levitate. I do have a levitate spell. I could try. I could. Why don't I. I get. I think I could levitate you. I'll levitate you, and then kind of. You can sort of push you, and you can sort of float to the other side and maybe. Maybe you'll see another path from there or something, because I don't know if I. I can't levitate my. I don't. It's not flies. I don't think I can levitate myself. I'd have to look into it.

[A]

Matt, I. I want to. I want you to take two power points. I love how you were accepting that failure and think. Thinking for other options. Rob, go ahead and take one too. It sounds like you're thinking of another option too. You guys are probably getting pretty close. How many crowd points do you have?

[B]

I got nine.

[C]

Seven.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I. Let me. Let me get you the other side, because then. So I'm gonna. I cast levitate on auto, and he's not fighting me, so I assume it. It. Does it pass. Like, I don't have to roll for it because he's not resisting or anything. I touch him and cast yeah, you can.

[A]

You can cast it and levitate him over.

[B]

Okay, so I cast. So, Auto, you're floating off the ground a couple feet. I'm going to kind of like twist you in the air so that you're sort of, you know, supermanning. And then I'm just going to sort of shove you through the tunnel kind of close to the wall. So if you need to push off, maybe you can. Do I need to roll or anything, Daniel? Or do I kind of. Can I shove him? I'm not sure how far he'd go.

[A]

He's just levitating and you're just pushing with your strength. And he might be shoving off a wall.

[B]

Yeah, I kind of pushed him like, not into the wall, but like next to the wall. So if he needs to sort of. Yeah. Move himself along over the city.

[A]

Okay, let's have you both roll for the. Your magic worked, but let's see how your. All of your is working.

[B]

A6.

[A]

A6. 18.

[B]

He had an 18, though, so I shoved him a little bit towards the wall. Maybe just enough.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. Well, Rob is. Nixon is about to shove. What was your name again?

[B]

Matt.

[C]

Otto.

[A]

Otto's face into the wall. But luckily Otto has some good reflexes and is able to deflect it and shimmy himself along and get out on the outskirts of the mushroom village.

[B]

Now I'm stuck in the village and

[A]

you're being surrounded by mushroom folk with the ghost.

[B]

No, I'm just.

[A]

They're lighting mini torches of whatever mushroom folk use in mobs.

[B]

Auto, I'm stuck. I don't. I don't know how to get out of here.

[C]

Is there. Is there anything I can do to. To pacify these mushroom people using my cleric spells or skills or anything like that?

[A]

Oh, yeah, sure. Using cleric spells, Is that what you said?

[C]

Yeah, and any kind of. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, you have like a. Like a calm emotions equivalent of whatever game this is we're playing.

[C]

All right, well, I'm going to try that then. I'm going to. I'm going to try to. To chill these guys out.

[A]

Okay, go ahead and take two PowerPoints. I love how you were able to accept that, Matt. And. And. And pivot there. I think I'm missing some exception from you too, Rob, so you could take one as well.

[B]

I'm stuck.

[A]

Excepting failure as a hard behavior to operationally.

[B]

Fungi. People are going to set my robes on fire.

[A]

So how many PowerPoints does everybody have?

[B]

I have 10.

[A]

We do have a 10 and a nine. Okay, so let's Matt. You are able to calm, emotions, pacify. Do you want to describe how that goes with mushroom people?

[C]

Well, I'm not going to whisper.

[B]

They hate that. I

[C]

just kind of. I guess again, sort of outstretch my arms to the side this time and kind of concentrate on my own peace. And that sort of creates this wave that carries over these mushroom people and sort of stops them in their tracks. And they all. They all take a deep sigh that

[B]

prompts me to take a deep sigh, too.

[C]

And then everything just kind of like hangs beautiful.

[A]

I love the spirit of our deep breathing just taking over today. That's wonderful. Everybody takes a deep breath, and we all know what that does to our bodies, right? Okay, the mushroom people are no longer coming at you with torches. Nyx, you've got a good 3 foot leap to the other side.

[B]

Okay. All right, well, now they're not bothering me. I don't have to worry. I'm like, kick them over, I guess when I jump or take them with me. So I will. I'll give a Lee. And I can just. It's just my movement, right? So I'm three feet. I can. I can do three feet.

[A]

Yeah. I think we can make a jump.

[B]

Jump. So I jump over to where Auto is, kind of jump on. I kind of try to hold on and stabilize myself as I get to the other side, and I go, whoa. Thank you. I did not want to have to do the rest of this adventure naked when they burnt my robes, so thank you very much, Otto. You saved the day.

[C]

All right.

[A]

Awesome. I love the teamwork. And you said you had 10 power points, Rob.

[B]

I have 10 power points.

[A]

Okay, I forgot to give you a narration, but, you know, that's how much you need. So your inner dragon is fully activated. You can bleed fire and hope you don't mind I didn't tell you earlier. I'm sure you didn't want to do it on the mushroom people.

[B]

No, I figured it would not be a good idea. So now that we have the fire inside us that will get us, we can use that fire to sort of like blast the opening to the next dungeon, right? Or the next floor. That's like our exit, right?

[A]

You now have that power to use when you see fit. But speaking of which, as you go over the fungi village and look at the tunnel ahead of you, you are now faced with a giant, sticky cobweb spiderweb just filling the entire space.

[B]

Oh, no, I don't want to deal with that. I'm gonna blast it with my Firepower. I don't want any, like, Lord of the Rings killer spiders. No, thank you. So I do my dragon breathing. I pull in.

[C]

I out.

[B]

I'm visualizing it, and I can see, and I feel the spirit of the dragon inside me. And then I just sort of like open my eyes wide and just beams of light start shooting out of my eyes. And then I open my mouth, come out of my mouth, and it's sort of like a light and a flame at the same time, maybe even my fingertips. And it just blasts through the. The webbing.

[A]

You.

[B]

Yeah, like, it's gone.

[A]

Fire display. The. The most glorious fire display that. That you guys get with your. With your inner dragon, which you mentioned, Lord of the Rings, you. You blast. Blast through several layers of webbing and spiders, but luckily they are all being consumed in flame. And you see before you the. And this is a point where I'm gonna pause. It kind of depends where we want to go next. I could say it's the stairs to the next level. I think we did say. I already mentioned there were stairs. There were three levels of dungeon or whatever. So. So the stairs to the next level of the dungeon go back in there and you are. You have cleared this level. You're heading down to closer to your tome and your final. Your final goal there. So I think. Anything I want to add before we cut that. Cut out of this role play here?

[B]

No, that, that. So that would be. That would be like the end of the session.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Well, actually, let's do it. Let's do a little end of the session. So. So we're done for today, but next time we can go down into the next level. Yay. Way to go, guys. So just real quick before everyone goes home or goes to whatever you're next doing in your session today, I really loved all the accepting and pivoting and the deep breathing coming back. You guys did great. What. What do you each think? What's something that your character did that you can bring home and do into your real life this week?

[B]

I mean, it's sort of just like, you know, when you're rolling, you're playing the game and you roll and it's bad roll. It's like you're just going to get another roll. I think I'm just going to remember that. So if something doesn't work out, I'll just, you know, it's just like a game. I can just. I can roll again. I can try another thing again, and I can always do the breathing if I get stuck But. But I. Hopefully I can just try another thing, get another roll.

[A]

I'm going to put that on T shirt. I can always get another role. That's beautiful. What do you think, Matt?

[C]

Yeah, I'm going to persevere. I'm going to try to be creative and rely on others to help out as well.

[A]

And then maybe I might take you here and kind of get into more like, let's say specific smart goals or something for. For the homework for the week or something. But we'll go ahead and stop there. That was great.

[B]

Yeah. Our role play clients, we didn't really give you a lot to work. We haven't done a lot of, like, questionnaires or anything or IP goals to build off of. So a little general for. For. For our. For our pretend purposes. All right, well, so, Danielle, I thank you so much for running that for. For listeners. I think hopefully you kind of got a sense of the encounter set up, how you would include the skill. And Dion, I know we talked about it on the episode, but this. This would be sort of a situation if you had, say, clients where you're like, we're just going to practice deep breathing and then talk about problems, and they're sort of like, roll their eyes, like, boring. This is terrible. I hate this. But they might be more amenable to it if it's in. In this. This context, under the old sage, having me do the breathing is fun, right? My therapist or clinician telling me to do the breathing. It's like, I've done this before. This is stupid. Sort of. As one example of when this might be a better use of time in a group session

[A]

with the old sage, I tried to work in a lot of those tropes that you've seen, you're familiar with. Number one, if you, like, you're familiar with this, you can do this, right? That's a trope that, as game masters, we can pull on. But then, number two, as the players, it's cool when you're watching Gandalf or the Kung Fu Panda Oogway or, you know, teaching the deep breathing and the connecting. And I think Matt even tapped into kind of that more like with calming the fungi people, you know, like, that's not cool when you're doing it with your therapist, but it's so cool when it happens in a movie and kind of tapping into that.

[B]

It is. And I do love even. Even though we knew we were doing this on purpose, like we had a goal, we talked ahead of time about, you know, how are we going to make sure we show some of the components, make sure we're showing the prompting that it could look like, you know, in game, prompting the use of the skills, the experience points is the reinforcement even. So there is something about when you are playing a game and I don't know if everybody feels this way, but there is that sense of you can do all the skill, like the skills feel more fluid in this sort of like, well, I'm playing the part of someone who's really good at these skills somehow. And I'm sure it's not the same for all, all clients. But you know, there is something to be said for like I rolled and I didn't get what I the role I wanted. But that doesn't mean I lose. It just means I'm going to take another turn. This is real. That does allow for some of that safety to sort of almost get. Almost be baked in to the process as opposed to if like, well, did you use your breathing? And then when you, you know, asked someone out on a date and how did it go? It went bad and it failed and I yelled at them and there's no other solution. You know, it's a very different thing. Whereas, oh, I didn't calm down the mushroom people kind of the same thing. And oh, well, it was kind of amusing. It was kind of, you know, funny. I was able to kind of step out of the, the role I was playing and sort of see it as just a situation, not something that was a, well, these mushroom people hate me. No one loves me. You know, it was a lot, a lot easier there, even when I was

[A]

purposely trying to breaking up some fused selfing there. And that could be, that could be good or bad. Like may, maybe you're overgeneralizing. Right. And we need to or undergeneralizing and we need to do some things to program common stimuli and connect back to real life. Or maybe we're done with the role playing game and we really need to get into more natural environment training. Or maybe it is this is the stage you're at and this is really helpful.

[B]

Danielle, one thing I think, you know, we talked about the different prompts. You know, the sage even was able to prompt in game. We did the BST in game, which was really cool. But a lot of those things you could do that as. As you normally prompt, right. Like it doesn't have to be in game because I'm guessing some people who are listening might be saying that sounds like great. Like I have some clients who I think would love this. But I'm scared. Like I don't know how to do this quite as well or I don't know how I'd put it all to like, I could probably make the adventure with the skills and the reinforcement, but like, I don't know how to make it all in game. Like, that's okay, right? It doesn't have to be all in game.

[A]

When you heard me, I honestly think I used your guys real names more often than your character names. And that was all, you know, me out of character, just saying, hey, client, good job. All of my praise was out of character. I did have the ethereal green mist prompt that I thought was a cool little idea. But like, if that didn't work, if you were still frustrated, my next step would have been, hey, Rob, remember what we're working on today, that's totally fine. And even the, you know, we, the old sage thing was fun, but I, I use BST outside of the game a lot too with, hey, let's pause. Let's all practice this skill as ourselves. Okay, now let's get into some gameplay to get through some exemplars of practicing this.

[B]

And Danielle, in terms of encounters, like how, how does one go about taking, you know, you take the skill, you take the encounter. Is, is it as simple as, you know, you would do it, say in a natural environment teaching you think about what are the, what's the sd, what, what's the reinforcer, what's the behavior? But now you just have to put a kind of a role, like a, like a thematic framework around it.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, you want to start with, you know, yeah, what's my stimulus class? What's my behavior class? And then maybe even also looking at the client's real life, what are the common stimuli, you know, that I want to kind of get to. And then all of the flavor pieces are pretty, you know, what's the client interested in? And a skill I'm working on personally, just as a gm is doing less of the narration and letting the players do more of it. You guys saw me have you guys describe some more. You could do a lot of that with a lot of the storytelling where you're not needing to come up with everything. You just know, hey, I need this sd. Hey, your character's frustrated about something, what is it? You know, and then they might, they might bring up some things because they're pulling on the relations they have in their real life. They might bring up some things that are better than what you're going to bring up anyway. I don't know if I answered your question, I think I went on a tangent a little bit.

[B]

No, it's all good. I, I know for me, I, I'm very used to being the GM in a situation, so anytime I have to play, I feel like I just end up taking a GM role even though I'm the player. Which I think even at one point I was like, and then this is what happens. Even though technically I would say I'm doing this and then you would tell me the, the response. But, you know, oh, well, if we're talking about acceptance and flexibility, it's at the end of the session, it's probably not worth being like actually client. That's not how the game is. It doesn't look like that at all. But I know some, some folks when they play, they, you know, have different styles. Like some folks, you know, like to play the part. Some want to just say, I will do this or my character would do this. Like they don't have that same relationship with the character they're playing. They sort of see the character as so different from them that they sort of narrate what they are watching their character do. Which I guess is good if you're trying to teach like self as context or something. But is it always the most fun role playing experience?

[A]

Yeah. Well, I mean, you want to build your characters based on your, your behavior plan, what you're going for. You know, if you're going for perspective taking and they want to play a character that's very different from them, but maybe is similar to someone they struggle with in real life, that's awesome. But I definitely would. As you're building the character, you want to set up those, set up the operations that you'll need to practice whatever the skills are. Which usually means character is similar enough to me or good enough at what I'm not good at or something along those lines to kind of prime working on the skills.

[B]

Oh, and one thing, I want everyone, I hope everyone who listened had had fun listening. It is very fun to play and be. And be imaginative, especially in these these sorts of situations. I think it's tricky sometimes. I mean, Danielle, have you, have you noticed? Because I know you've, you mentioned on the episode and I know when we've talked that you've played RPGs for, for a long stretch of your.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Of your, of your life. Right. It was like a family thing and it's continued on and I, I did on and off and on, but I certainly grew up playing a lot more video games. You Know, like, Atari, Nintendo Entertainment system in the 80s were sort of my first ones. So even for me, it's taken me a long time to not see everything as like, well, here's the level. And, and there's one way to get through this, and it's usually killed the thing. And it's taken me a long time to be like, wait a minute, I could. When, when they say you can do anything, you could literally say, I want to do whatever crazy thing. And then it's up to the GM to, yes, and you. Rather than as much as they can, rather than just like, nope, that's not how it goes. There's one solution and you failed, which I know can be hard. And I feel like I'm, I'm curious if, if clients, if your clients today, when they sort of just have so much on demand work, whether they sometimes get stuck or paralyzed with, I don't know, like, walk forward. I can't walk forward. And I don't know, I got no other ideas. Even though if they were there, they'd be like, well, I'll look backwards. I could look to the side of me, you know?

[A]

Yeah. I, I'm struggling to think of specific examples. I, I, if they're new to TTRPGs, there are, you know, the first session or two is a lot of kind of getting them into, okay, this is how this works. And some, you know, clients want a little bit more, like, what are my options? That I haven't really come up with a specific way to handle that yet. It's kind of just been on a client to client basis, and if it's really not working for them, then we don't need to do that ttrpg. We can do something else. But the video game culture also can be helpful. Like that Axe Pendulum thing I just pulled out of Skyrim. You know, I don't think there was anything in here that was really. You don't need to be super creative or imaginative. You just pull from the relations you already have.

[C]

Mm,

[B]

that's good. I know, Matt, you, Because you, you played some before, but it's, you've only kind of got back into it in the past.

[C]

I hadn't. No.

[B]

Oh, no, you hadn't played at all.

[C]

Okay. This is a, within the last couple of months that I've, that I've been doing this, I've done some other kinds of, like, you know, role playing, board games and video games and stuff like that, but not anything that's as open as the, the kind of tabletop style.

[B]

Oh, and what does that process been. I mean, were you in similar boat in terms of coming from like the board game, kind of more RPG board games where it's like, well, there's only so many options because, you know, I can see the board, I have the pieces, I know the rules in the rule book. Having to sort of come up with other ideas or is it something that's, you know, been easier in a group or how have you found that process?

[C]

Yeah, I'm still working on the kind of the, the generating ideas creatively part of it and, and still kind of, you know, I'm not totally 100 on what the limits of that are or if there are limits. It doesn't seem like there are.

[A]

Oh, I don't think there are. It is the tool you make it be.

[B]

And then like Daniel, you mentioned sort of some of the things we, we didn't role play as much, but you mentioned would be we would have done more character work to begin with. You know, people didn't see the initial lessons that would have gone into the kind of scope and sequence of the work you were doing with the clients. And then you'd have like a. Either homework assignment, the summary piece and sort of know, you know, where the lesson was going to go for, for next time. Like, like potentially if we had another session where we went down further into the depths, would it just sort of be a thinning of reinforcement, Maybe more natural, trying to get more natural SDs, a different skill.

[A]

I mean this was very mass, mass trial on one skill. So the first thing I want to do is start fading to more intermixed trials and fade the reinforcement schedule. So I, I think if we go to the next level, maybe you guys are struggling with some, some social like collaboration. I guess you weren't, you were really

[B]

good at collaborating, but you were great at collaboration. That was the earlier dungeon. You, you all missed that one. We were great at that one.

[A]

But maybe we get farther down and you know, there's. You're struggling with collaboration or you're struggling with some other problem solving skills. Like we'll start introducing some other skills and I can put whatever I want in this dungeon to work on whatever you want to work on. And then there'll still be some failures and accepting failures. But this was very focused on if you don't get above a 15, you are going to fail. And I'd lax that. Right. We do less, less thick of a schedule of practice trials and fade back the PowerPoints, make it more natural and kind of do some natural fades on that skill while we start working on some other skills too and intermixing them all together. And I'd fade out the praise on the deep breathing too, you know, and. Because that was one that was kind of coming over from last week. But it really kind of depends on the clients. And we could, I could speed through the rest of these tunnels, get you to where you get your tome, and then we can go to town and work on some. A lot of social skills there. Or the next level of the tunnels could have more mushroom people or ghosts and do something more social. Just really depending what the client needs to work on.

[B]

Maybe get the backstory on why the mushroom people hate these ghosts so damn much. All right, well, I think, I hope everyone enjoyed kind of listening to a sampling of what TTRPGs in your behavior analytics session could. Like we're saying the sky's the limit, but it could sound like this. And it is. It is definitely a lot of fun. I know, you know, we, unlike in the, in the real session or perhaps in some sessions, Daniel, depending, I guess, on some of the skills, Matt and I did get to have a little bit of, say, into some of the adventure kind of types or the encounters. And so we sort of knew what to expect because our goal was not to just play role playing games. It was to, you know, make this seem like a session that was clear for the listener. But I suppose you could have some clients add some ideas in, or they'd be adding in some of the things from their lives that you would want to sort of pepper into the game to make it more realistic to them and relevant. But if you are, again, if you're interested in learning more about this, if you haven't listened to episode 335 where we talk about the research on this, well, geez, Louise, go download that right now. And if you came to that episode. I came to this episode from that episode. Hopefully now you kind of have the whole package of some of the research behind things and what it could sound like. Danielle, I know you have links, but you could share them again if you, if you want to. I, I think this one's going to come out right around the same time as the other episode. So there might still be time to get into your upcoming session.

[A]

Yeah, I've got a continuing education course focused on this topic on using TTRPGs in behavior analysis. And we talk about different examples, different settings, and we have everyone set their own plan, their own kind of behavior plan and encounter for their clients and go through a lot more detail about all of the things we talked about in the other episode and here. So if interested in that, the we can add the link there. My next one is starting on February 23rd and it runs for 10 weeks. If you can't do that, I do have on my website there's a newsletter. It's not really a newsletter. It's just like I will send you one email when I have a new offering kind of thing that you could sign up for or email me. People don't ever talk to people and private practice is lonely. Send me an email. I'll talk to you.

[B]

I can verify. Danielle did talk. I sent her an email and she did talk to me. You've heard it here, folks. And then Matt, I don't know if you have any, you have anything you want to plug. You're just here for the fun, the fun of the game. All right, well, thank you all so much for listening to our bonus episode of ABA Inside Track. Remember, you can email Danielle. You can certainly email ABA Inside Track as well. But we hope you enjoyed this little bonus and we'll see you later on with another fun filled episode. Bye.