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- [00:02]
A
When there's nothing left to burn, you
- [00:04]
B
have to set yourself on fire. Hey, everyone, and welcome to They're Playing our Song. This is your host, Rob Perry, and I'm here with a very special guest, Ms. Jackie McDonald. Hi, Jackie.
- [00:44]
A
Hi, Rob.
- [00:45]
B
Thank you so much for coming on the show today. And, Jackie, you brought a song, one of your songs to talk about. So what song did you bring us today?
- [00:54]
A
I brought your ex Lover is Dead by Stars.
- [00:57]
B
By Stars. Now, Starz is indie rock, for those of you who don't know, is an indie rock band from Canada, which I guess is its own genre. Canadian indie rock versus American indie rock.
- [01:06]
A
It is. Yeah.
- [01:07]
B
They do sound very different, I think. And this is from their album Set Yourself on fire from 2005. This is the first song on the album, which is weird because there's actually a song called Set Yourself on Fire. I assumed they do that one. So you get that weird old, like, James Earl Jones sound into starting it off with.
- [01:24]
A
It's my favorite part, actually.
- [01:26]
B
Who do you know that?
- [01:27]
A
I don't know. I think it might be actually one. I think it might be the drummer.
- [01:31]
B
Oh, okay. He sounds, like, creepy and old.
- [01:34]
A
Yeah, I think he might be creepy and old.
- [01:35]
B
Well, if you're in a Canadian band, I feel like you could just be like, I started a band. I'm in my 50s, and I sing like young people music.
- [01:42]
A
Right.
- [01:42]
B
I think here in America, if you're 50 or 60, you probably wrote something terrible in the 70s, like you're out REO Speedwagon kind of bands. But anyway, let's not talk about those. Let's talk about your ex lover is dead. So, Jackie, why. Why this song? Why is this your song?
- [01:55]
A
So this is my song because I think it's. It's raw and super melodramatic. Right. So I actually didn't hear this song in 2005. I actually heard this song about maybe when I was in 2000, maybe 10 or 11. So I actually heard the song. I wasn't introduced to Stars by this song. It was a different song called Today Will Be Better, I swear, because I was going through a really rough time and I just used to listen to it on repeat over and over again, which is sad.
- [02:24]
B
Is that from this album or. That's from an earlier, later album, I'm sure, actually.
- [02:27]
A
But then I did, like the Pandora Stars, you know, station, and this song came on and I, like, literally stopped in my tracks and I was like, what? Right from the beginning, too? Because, like, right in the beginning, like Rob said The guy says, when there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire. And then it just gets really melodramatic. Yeah. And I was like, oh, this is perfect. And I, like, stopped. I, like, sat down and I listened to the whole song. And then I went to itunes and bought the entire album and every album that they've had since.
- [03:02]
B
Nice.
- [03:03]
A
And that's still. That song is still my most favorite song. I. I love it.
- [03:07]
B
Good. Well, why don't we get into our musical notes, talking about the song. So you already kind of talked about how you first heard it. You heard another song and then just got into it from the. The Pandora station, which I guess that's. You think of it. That's such a. Such. Such a modern way to put music. Yeah, I know. I used to just listen to music because either it was on the radio, which, I mean, I can't imagine listening. Be like, oh, this song on the radio. I mean, that happens maybe once a year.
- [03:30]
A
Not anymore.
- [03:31]
B
I know. After I watched the Hunger Games, the last two songs during the credits, I was like, ooh. It was like Taylor Swift and I think an Arcade Fire song. So I went and bought those after because I really liked those. But it's just such a rare occurrence, so you just have to kind of go find that stuff. But I think they make it easy on Pandora to just, oh, if you like this, you like this stuff.
- [03:49]
A
Yeah.
- [03:50]
B
But it feels very. I don't know, it seems personal. It's like there's an algorithm for what songs you will like.
- [03:54]
A
And I do. I like all of them. Thank you, Pandora.
- [03:58]
B
So what is it that you like about the song? You know, mostly when we talk about songs, we talk about the music and the lyrics. I know that they. They go together to make a really good song. But some people prefer the music or they prefer the lyrics.
- [04:09]
A
I actually prefer the lyrics.
- [04:10]
B
Okay.
- [04:10]
A
I'm more of a lyric type girl. The first thing I liked about the lyrics is I liked that they referenced Point Chant, the bridge, Point Champlain, because of Ben there. And I was like, I've been there.
- [04:22]
B
I know what you're talking about. Where is. Is that a Montreal. Oh, it is in Montreal.
- [04:27]
A
Okay. Yeah. And so I was like, wow, I've been there. That's so cool. So that's dumb, but that's what I thought.
- [04:34]
B
Well, you know this. We're all about how the reviews don't matter so much as I seem to like this song, and therefore my review is five stars in my personal magazine.
- [04:42]
A
Yeah. So. And Then the second thing is, once I started listening to it over and over again, I felt a deep connection to the song. Because what it's really about is, you know, like, a relationship that you really wanted to have, and you thought it was gonna be awesome, and then it wasn't. And then, like, years later, you run into that person. You're like, man, that would have sucked. You know, like, I'm glad that that didn't happen. And I feel like that happens over and over to me anyway, in my life before, you know, the marriage.
- [05:10]
B
You happily married now?
- [05:11]
A
Nah, I loved it.
- [05:13]
B
And it continues to this day. No, it ended.
- [05:15]
A
Right. But I think that that hit home a lot because, like, in high school, you, like. You're like, oh, I love this person so much. I can't imagine my life without them. And they don't like you that way. And then, you know, like, later on, you see them at a party, and you're like, oh, I can't believe that would have happened. And so I think I like the melodramaticness of it.
- [05:36]
B
That's true. Now, in listening to the lyrics, I could not tell because you have the male vocalist and you have a female vocalist. And I could not tell whether the point of the song was. At first, I was like, oh, that's the male perspective. That's the female perspective. But then there are plenty of lyrics that, you know. And I had that same sense of like, oh, the man's singing about this person is like, bleh. I didn't. I don't remember this person very well. Whereas the woman, I think, has the female vocalist, I should say, has the sense of, oh, well, she wanted this relationship, and she feels like he missed something, and he should feel bad about that, but maybe he doesn't. But then they'll start singing the other parts the same. You know, you're living through this part. Then they sing the end, the last.
- [06:18]
A
Live through this and don't. Or you and you won't look back.
- [06:20]
B
Yeah. And then I want. You know I gave all I gave
- [06:24]
A
I'm not sorry I met you I'm
- [06:25]
B
not sorry I met. So they're both singing those parts, right? So I couldn't tell if it was that. Yeah. If it was that sense of two people looking back on a relationship, one of them feeling like it should have happened, one not really caring, but both of them coming to that understanding of, well, you know, what it was, what it was what we made it, and that's okay, because that's what life is gonna be. It's just making choices and don't. Don't look back and don't feel sad about them, which is kind of positive given the melodrama of the whole thing.
- [06:51]
A
Yeah.
- [06:51]
B
But then the fact that they're singing a lot of those parts together, I couldn't tell. Maybe it's not supposed to be male, female perspective. It's. It's just one character and they just have the different vocalists singing different parts of the song. I don't know.
- [07:03]
A
Actually, a lot of people have thought about this. I've had many a discussion.
- [07:07]
B
The Stars forums.
- [07:08]
A
Yes. On the Starz forums, many people have talked about this and actually got into a very long discussion about this in a basement of somebody's house. When I saw they had a Stars like poster up, and I was like, I love them. That's my favorite song. And so you have two people, and most people think that it's a male, female perspective, like you said. But some people think that even though the guy can't remember her name and, like the beginning of the song, that he also wanted it to work out. And so, like, when they're singing together, they're both feeling the same about their relationship, but, you know, it's still over.
- [07:42]
B
Okay. Did you saw it? It's kind of making me think you saw the movie, the gif that's out.
- [07:47]
A
I did see that movie. Yeah.
- [07:48]
B
Yeah, I went and saw that about two weeks ago, and I thought it was really good movie. But it did get to kind of that same sense of how you might actually. Just where you are in your life, you meet a person and these two people meet. You know, this is about, you know, Jason Bateman and Joel Edgerton meet again, and they knew each other and. And you almost have the sense of the Jason Bateman character. Like, he barely remembers this guy. And then as the movie goes on, maybe he's starting to remember more. Whereas Joel Edgerton clearly remembers every single thing that happened. But in the end, they both remember a ton about what happened. So maybe it's that the fact he didn't remember her name. But as. Almost as the song goes on or as their ride across Point Champlain goes on, it starts to come back to him. You know, it wasn't a memory that he didn't have anymore so much as a memory that was just so old
- [08:31]
A
it wasn't fresh and he forgot. Yeah. What I really like is that when she's singing and she says, you know, like, it wasn't. It wasn't meant to be, but I'll send you A postcard from the Real Love House. And that actually I would play that back and be like, what does that mean?
- [08:46]
B
Okay, but did you come up with a.
- [08:48]
A
Well, I think it's that now she's in a good, stable relationship and she's like, now I know what I was looking for. And it wasn't that, But I used to be like, I don't understand the real house. What. But I think it's. I think it's that, like, he's. She's looking back and saying, this is not good, but this, what I have now, is awesome.
- [09:07]
B
Okay.
- [09:08]
A
Yeah, that's.
- [09:08]
B
Yeah, that was the. My main read on the. On the lyrics when it started. But just like a lot of songs, you read it, you're like, I think it means this, but wait, maybe it means this, which is good. I mean, it's good when you have that. Those different interpretations of a song. I think it's different than books too, because a book. I feel like I read a book. It's 500 pages. Whatever I thought of it, that's. I don't have time to go back and read it again. That's what it is. But a song, you can listen and listen and listen and get the different meanings. Can we talk? Let's talk about the music itself a little bit more. You said you felt like the whole package was melodramatic.
- [09:39]
A
Yeah, it's like angsty. It's like angsty teenage rock, which I love. Yeah, I think, anyway, you know, like, it starts off very, like, you'll hear in a little bit. And then it kind of builds when they kind of come together. But it always. It ends kind of like oldie old time. Angsty. That's how I always feel about it. I kind of like it.
- [10:01]
B
I mean, it starts with string. I believe it's cello and harmonica, which are two instruments I don't know if I've ever heard before. So the whole thing takes on this very weird kind of baroque chamber music aspect.
- [10:14]
A
It's like old timey, like,
- [10:18]
B
which I really enjoyed. And we kind of were joking about how you could have American indie rock and Canadian indie rock. I feel like a lot of. There was. I had a. I had a Canadian period where everything I want to hear from Canada. I don't really care about American.
- [10:30]
A
Me too.
- [10:31]
B
Maybe everyone goes through that phase. And everything that I was hearing from Canada had more of that dreamlike, ephemeral quality. I don't know if it's maybe because they're more European than, say, American, because I know American music. Will have that at times.
- [10:45]
A
Yeah. But there's not a whole genre.
- [10:47]
B
No. Like old Death Cab for Cutie. Like, if you listen to their first two albums, it has more of that sort of, you know, in the ether sound to it. Not their more modern stuff, which is a little more rock and roll. But I definitely like that about the song. It really played into the. You know, it sounds more mature. I mean. Yeah, it makes it sound more mature. We talked about one of the previous episodes. We did somebody that I used to know, which. Which goes over similar subject matter, and we were talking about how that felt mature. The sense of having a relationship. And it's not just, I got dumped and I'm mad. It's more the realization that life goes on. I feel like this actually takes that whole aspect one step further.
- [11:26]
A
Yeah.
- [11:26]
B
In. You know, the relationship is way over. You know, we're talking about something that happened way in the past. And though it has some. Some bit of you really is related to that, you know, you. You put all this stuff in, or you put in what you wanted to and left that. It's. It's sort of looking at just. That's one more stop in my. In my life overall. And this is much older person than, say, to somebody that used to know which one. It feels like there may be 20 somethings. This very much feels like something that would happen when you're in your 30s or even 40s.
- [11:54]
A
Yeah. And it's interesting that the actual. The artists, the two singers were briefly engaged, really. And then they broke up and wrote this song. So I'm wondering they're friends still because they just produced an album called no One's Alone or Lost in the Dark. I don't know which one, but it's good. It's like, not at all like this, but they were briefly engaged for a period of time. So I'm wondering if they took from that to make this song, which is interesting. I'm also fairly proud of the lady in this because she's got a very strong voice, you know, and she's not like, oh, I really wish that this happened. Love me, love me. She's like, no, I'm. I don't really care about you anymore.
- [12:34]
B
Yeah.
- [12:34]
A
I'm not sorry that it happened. I'm not sorry that I know you, but I'm pretty glad that it's over.
- [12:39]
B
Yeah, I get a sense of that sort of. You know, we're behavior analysts by trade, not podcasters, so. But, you know, I kind of almost have like a graph of how much this Guy cared like he couldn't remember who this person was at the beginning of the song. And. And you feel that even though he's not thinking, like, oh, I'm the sad. I should have. You know, you don't get the sense that I should have done this, but you do get the sense that he's thinking a little more about it than he was. So his interest level is sort of up. Whereas I feel like her trajectory is very much the opposite. She starts off like rush of emotions. You know, I'm trying to think back and how I wish this had been more. But then by the end, almost like, you know, that's. That's old hat. So it's almost a crisscross of how much they're interested. But it doesn't. It doesn't go very high. Like, it's funny for a song that's so melodramatic. It really has a lot of power behind it, you know, a lot of pulsing drums to move it along. That in the end, I don't think either characters really feels that strongly about each other.
- [13:30]
A
No. Which is kind of nice. I never want to cry when I listen to this song, which is also nice. I'm always like, yeah, you do it stupid. But I like it when there's a sad song that I'm not, like, bursting into tears every time I hear.
- [13:43]
B
I mean, this does capture. I think we're all getting older. Everyone, even you at home, if you're a young person, you are also getting older every day. And it's. It's sort of nice to have. I think music that is more. Is somewhat nostalgic in a more general sense of just things that would have happened in the past to any person. But isn't nostalgic in the sense of either. Oh, I used to love those toys in the 80s. Now I can buy them because I have a real job, which is, I think a male problem more than a female problem. Or just. Oh, I'm thinking about something that just makes me sad. Like, what a failure my life is because I didn't take this road. Just more general. Hey, remember when this probably happened in your life? Yep. That's something.
- [14:20]
A
It happened. Yeah. And it's over. And I'm glad that it's over. It happened, but yay.
- [14:26]
B
Yeah, it's. It's. I like that. I like that. I like that perspective.
- [14:29]
A
Yeah.
- [14:29]
B
So what part of this song. We talked about a lot of parts of the song, but what would you say was. Is your favorite part? And you had one. You had the. A Couple lines that you just wanted to listen to over and over again.
- [14:39]
A
Really. My most favorite part is right in the beginning, that old man. When there's nothing left, you have to set yourself on fire. That really, I think, is my most favorite part. I said, I think it sets the song. Without it, I don't think the song would be as good. Unfortunately.
- [14:53]
B
Now I see I haven't listened to the whole album. And does. Does it all have to do with the theme of set yourself on fire?
- [15:00]
A
Yeah, it's all having to do with, like, relationships and broken relationships and, you know, trying to capture the feeling behind broken relationships. And some of the songs are happy, but most of them are about, like, being sad and being in a broken relationship. Like, one's about cheating, one's about being in a fight. This and this album, I think, came before when they wrote. When they wrote a whole album about, like, a war.
- [15:30]
B
Oh, really?
- [15:31]
A
Yeah.
- [15:31]
B
Concept album.
- [15:32]
A
Yeah, it was weird, but pretty good. But this one's way better. But, yeah, most of the songs are about breaking up, so.
- [15:39]
B
Do you think that the opening line, though, would have worked as a starter to whatever song they put first or as a whole, like. No, this is the first song. This is. If you didn't start this way, I feel like you wouldn't go into the album the right.
- [15:50]
A
Yeah, I don't think so.
- [15:51]
B
Yeah.
- [15:51]
A
I think this has to be the first song it kind of sets the stage for, and maybe it's like the first song that they wrote, and then it talks about the rest of the fights, how, like, you could have a relationship and how it can be horrible after that song. So maybe that song's like a setup song to. Now let's talk about all the ways that we can break up.
- [16:13]
B
Oh. Oh, God. Oh, that's like a treatise on.
- [16:15]
A
Yeah.
- [16:17]
B
Different relationships go south. Blech. So let's get to the big question. Why is this. It's very specifically. Specifically, again, why is this your song? Like, you had to bring this song today.
- [16:30]
A
So I think I wanted to bring this song because I think if you haven't heard this song, I think you should listen to it. And I think that everyone would take something away from it because I think most people in their life have had that feeling of, this is the relationship that should have been, but in the end, it's not. And I think wanted to bring this song because it helped me through a lot. So when I'm having, like, bad times and I'm feeling sad, I listen to this song and I'm like. But I'm gonna be the girl in that song, and I'm gonna rock my socks off. And so I think that it's a good. It's a good album. It's a good song, and the music video is really awesome.
- [17:09]
B
Yeah, that's so talk. It's gonna be on the. On the. On the website.
- [17:13]
A
Oh, that's fun.
- [17:13]
B
Well, I usually put them. I want people to buy the songs because I think if. If you have.
- [17:18]
A
Buy this album, it's great. It's on itunes.
- [17:24]
B
Someone told me you can make money if people buy albums that you. You recommend. Yeah, I put in an application. I don't. I don't care. I mean, but, you know, it'd be nice to get, like, you know, $5 for this podcast a year to offset the. Whatever it costs so you can get a website. But, yeah, I don't. They never. They never got back to me. So anyway. Oh, music video.
- [17:47]
A
So let me tell you about the music video.
- [17:47]
B
It's still in the music video.
- [17:48]
A
So the music video is on an ice rink. Typical Canadian. And what I really like about the ice rink is that it's at dusk, so you can see the stars and the. The camera pans from the members of the band laying on the ice and two people skating together. So you don't necessarily see the people, but you see their shadows skating along. And what. What I really liked about the music video is that when the man and the woman started singing, you could see the cracks in the ice get stronger and longer and, like, bigger. And I think that's really cool. And it's a good representation of this song.
- [18:26]
B
Yeah. Or the. The fragility of a relationship.
- [18:29]
A
Right? Oh, so metaphorical.
- [18:31]
B
I. Mostly when I watched, it just was like, that drummer's on his back with a big drum kit on top of him. That's hilarious.
- [18:36]
A
I bet he's hurt.
- [18:37]
B
Look at that, dude. It's tuba on the ice.
- [18:39]
A
Yeah. So everybody's on the ice, and it's just. It's a ne. It's a neat way to, I think, display the song. And so Canadian.
- [18:45]
B
It is very Canadian.
- [18:46]
A
And the stars are playing October 4th in Rhode Island.
- [18:49]
B
Are they really?
- [18:49]
A
Yeah.
- [18:49]
B
Where are they playing down in Rhode Island? Dunkin Donut Center?
- [18:53]
A
No, they're playing at a place called the Met. It's a Sunday night. I think if anyone wants to go
- [19:00]
B
with me, I'm probably going email Jackie@Jackieayingoursong.net and she won't get that email because it doesn't exist.
- [19:07]
A
Yeah, but I think they probably will not play this song.
- [19:10]
B
Really?
- [19:11]
A
They will. They'll probably play their new album.
- [19:12]
B
Oh, you're gonna be the. No, no, no new stuff. Just the old classics.
- [19:17]
A
The 1 from 98. They're also members of the Broken Social Scene.
- [19:22]
B
What's Broken? I don't know that band.
- [19:24]
A
What?
- [19:24]
B
I don't. I'm. I'm. I'm way out of it. I was also using this podcast as a means of having young people tell me about new songs.
- [19:30]
A
Well, I'm a young person and Broken Social Scenes, I think maybe also Canadian, probably. I love Canadian bands. And I'll give you their cd, because you should listen to them as well. Or I'll come back on and we'll talk about Brooklyn Social.
- [19:42]
B
Oh, okay. Yeah, anytime. I need. I need guests. That's for sure. I'll take everybody, so. All right. The final part of our show is the elevator pitch. Why should this be our song? The collective worldwide. Our song, everyone.
- [19:58]
A
This should be our song because it encompasses the teenage spirit, the teenage angst and melodrama of high school and college life. That's why. And it's so damn good.
- [20:12]
B
Mm. So you think it speaks to the young people and to the old people and to the old people. And so it's a nostalgia versus a current aching wound kind of feeling, right?
- [20:21]
A
Yeah. So it speaks to everyone. If you've ever lost something that you wanted, but now you don't want it, this will speak to you.
- [20:30]
B
Pardon the thudding, everyone. My children are thudding about. Well, Jackie, thank you so much for coming on and making your ex lover is dead our song. Actually, before we go, the title, Metaphorical Dead. Right?
- [20:42]
A
Is that metaphorical Dead?
- [20:43]
B
Because when you told me about it, I was like, oh, no, this is gonna be a song about someone's funeral and, like, how awkward it must be to go like, yeah, ooh, that's my lover in there. What are you, their wife or husband? Yeah, ex lover. They're dead now, though. Sorry about that.
- [20:54]
A
Metaphorical.
- [20:54]
B
Metaphorical. So dead in. Not inside, but dead.
- [20:57]
A
Dead relationship.
- [20:58]
B
Dead relationship wise.
- [20:59]
A
Yeah.
- [21:00]
B
Okay. That was. I wanted to make sure I had a chance to talk about that with someone like this. Somebody died, which. Maybe I'm missing something.
- [21:06]
A
Nobody died.
- [21:07]
B
That's good. I think it's more powerful that they didn't die.
- [21:10]
A
Right.
- [21:10]
B
It'd be lame if they died. Right.
- [21:11]
A
Because then the song would be too literal.
- [21:13]
B
Yeah.
- [21:15]
A
Now I don't see you anymore because you died.
- [21:18]
B
Okay. Well, Jackie, thank you so much for coming on, offering to be on, and bringing this Song to us. I would say that it definitely is our song now. I've been listening to it quite a bit this morning. It was a lot of fun to get into some old Canadian. Not old Canadian, but, you know, back into the Canadian indie mindset. Yeah, it's not that old a song, but that used to be a really big genre. I think I've kind of not fallen out of it. I just haven't. Haven't recognized it. So thank you for bringing that to our attention. Do you have anything that you want to plug? Yeah, anything.
- [21:49]
A
So stay tuned in the upcoming months for a behavior analyst podcast by me and Diana Perry Crews. It's sure to be exciting.
- [22:00]
B
Good. Do you guys have a title for you?
- [22:02]
A
No, I'm waiting for Diana to have a great inspirational title. She's working on it.
- [22:08]
B
Oh, good. Well, everyone, if you like music, you love behavior analytic talk. I'm sure there's a huge overlap of interests.
- [22:17]
A
Right?
- [22:17]
B
Check your Google circles. It totally. It's totally there. Well, that's a good. That's a great plug. I hope. I can't wait to hear it. And for the rest of you, you know, until. While you're waiting with bated breath for behavior analyst talk, you can certainly keep listening to our show. You can subscribe to us on itunes. Please feel free to leave a review or a rating. We'd love to, love to get a sense of how people feel about it and if they have any feedback. If you are interested in sharing a song that you'd like us to talk about or if you want to be on the show, please email me@robayingoursong.net you can follow us on Twitter layingoursong. You can check out our facebook page@facebook.com playingoursong.net and you can look to the website where we'll have the video. If you haven't seen it already, we have the full video. We have the lyrics posted and usually the Friday after an episode goes live. I'll put up some links to music reviews, other fun facts. Sometimes we'll find if I find good interviews about the band members talking about the song, I'll put those all up. So if you're interested in the song, your one shop place, you could google it yourself, I suppose, but that's. That's too hard. You should just totally go to the website and I did all that work for you and that's@playingoursong.net so, Jackie, thank you again so much for being on our show and you're happy to have you back anytime you like.
- [23:30]
A
Great.
- [23:31]
B
Maybe we'll do more stars. That'd be cool. Something brand new. Oh, no. Broken social scene. Alright, we'll have to. I'll put that one on the production schedule.
- [23:38]
A
Great.
- [23:40]
B
So everybody, thanks so much for listening. And remember, until next time, it's your song. So play it long and play it loud. Bye, Sa.