ABA Inside Track: OOPS! Book Club (feat. Dr. Judy Agnew)

Episode 1019 | Release Date: September 24, 2025

Overview

This episode of ABA Inside Track, as part of "Supervision September," features a lively book club discussion of Aubrey Daniels’ OOPS! 13 Management Practices That Waste Time and Money (and What to Do Instead) with special guest Dr. Judy Agnew from Aubrey Daniels International (ADI). The group deep-dives into OBM (Organizational Behavior Management), the legacy of Dr. Aubrey Daniels, and each of the 13 “oops” management practices described in his book, relating them both to corporate environments and behavior analytic practice.

Episode Structure and Flow

1. [00:00–02:34]: Introduction from host Robert Perry Crews; overview of the book club format and Supervision September.
2. [02:34–31:13]: Interview with Dr. Judy Agnew (Senior VP of Safety Solutions at ADI) about OBM, Dr. Aubrey Daniels' influence, and the evolution of management practices.
3. [31:47–34:41]: Transition; the crew assembles for the book club discussion.
4. [34:41–134:12]: Book Club: The OOPS! 13 Management Practices—discussion, debate, and reflection on each “oops” and what to do instead.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Interview with Dr. Judy Agnew: The Legacy of Dr. Aubrey Daniels

[02:34–31:13]

Dr. Agnew’s OBM Journey & ADI’s Work

• Dr. Agnew shares her 34-year tenure at ADI, the firm’s roots in addressing absenteeism in the textile industry, and how it evolved to become a leader in performance management and safety solutions.
• Transition of focus: “Historically, ADI didn’t start in safety... Our expertise is human performance. You want to improve quality, we can help with that. You want to improve productivity, we can help with that.” – Judy Agnew [03:18]
• The impact of behavior-based safety becoming “mainstream” and its advantages and challenges for the field.

Dr. Daniels’ Approach and Personality

• Recollections of Daniels as kind, insightful, approachable, and “magically” able to translate behavioral science without making others feel judged:
  • “He just had this way of talking about it... compelling, funny, enlightening. He never made people feel like, ‘Oh my gosh, I’ve been so stupid.’” – Judy Agnew [08:48]
• Aim for practicality: Daniels wanted behavioral solutions to feel accessible rather than complicated, so people would try and then want to learn more.

OBM’s Evolution and Impact

• OBM has shifted how businesses view “behavior,” and especially positive reinforcement:
  • “Behaviors become mainstream... People better understand what [positive reinforcement] is and how important it is in a business setting.” – Judy Agnew [15:45]
• Major change noted in safety: companies have shifted from blaming employees for injuries toward examining management/systems.

Obstacles and Frustrations

• Despite advances, OBM hasn’t penetrated culture as much as hoped—trends distract businesses from effective fundamentals.
• Misunderstanding of negative reinforcement as a default for managers not using positive reinforcement:
  • “If you are not purposefully using positive reinforcement, you are using negative reinforcement by default.” – Judy Agnew [19:20]

Reflections on Downsizing, Unions, and Management Trends

• Dr. Agnew notes trends like downsizing are cyclical, driven by profit and sometimes ignoring the human element. She expresses skepticism about the sustainability of treating employees as disposable.
• Unionization trends may signal employee overwhelm and dissatisfaction with “do more with less” corporate mentalities.
• Dr. Daniels’ legacy: a strong champion for positive reinforcement, practical science application, and genuinely improving working lives.

Notable Quote

“If I ever ask a question and you don’t know the answer, say ‘positive reinforcement,’ and you’ll be right most of the time.” – Dr. Aubrey Daniels (via Judy Agnew) [29:49]

2. Book Club: “OOPS! 13 Management Practices That Waste Time and Money”

[34:41–134:12]

Opening Thoughts

• The book is praised as readable, practical, non-condescending, and a great starting place for behavior analysts and business managers alike.
  • “It’s a book that people who are in charge of other people should read.” – Diana Perry Cruz [37:21]
• Draws distinction between positive reinforcement as a behavioral concept and the common misinterpretation as “being nice.”
• Serves as an intro—a “listicle” done right, with each chapter providing enough substance to spark further inquiry.

The OOPS! 13 Management Practices (with Timestamps in Book Club Segment – [51:48–124:23])

(See [51:48] for full dramatic reading.)

| Oops # | Practice | Discussion Highlights | Key Quotes/Moments | Timestamps | |-------:|----------|----------------------|-------------------|:----------| | 1 | Employee of the Month | Ineffective as reinforcement; can demotivate; often lacks clarity on how to “win” | “Nobody knew, but one guy did say, ‘I guess be nice to your manager.’” – Daniels [55:25] | [51:57–57:46] | | 2 | Stretch Goals | Unrealistic goals lead to extinction; goals must be attainable and reinforcing | “With these stretch goals… you’re going to see extinction.” – Jackie [59:42] | [57:48–61:36] | | 3 | Performance Appraisals | Ranking against others creates punishment, not improvement; focus on individualized performance | “80% of employees think they’re in the top 20%.” – Diana [63:35] | [63:34–69:27] | | 4 | Ranking | Internal competition squashes collaboration; encourages cheating; focus on benchmarks, not ranks | “Competition is really destructive... not going to promote collaboration at all.” – Jackie [71:40] | [69:29–75:02] | | 5 | Rewarding Things a Dead Man Can Do | Don’t reinforce absence (e.g., no errors, no injuries); reinforce active, positive behaviors | “If they’d just been sitting around not doing their job, they’d still have made zero defective widgets.” – Diana [78:00] | [77:59–82:13] | | 6 | Salary and Hourly Pay | Fixed, non-contingent pay isn't reinforcing; link pay (even a small amount) to performance | “Raises… are typically not tied to better and better performance.” – Jackie [85:55] | [85:22–90:04] | | 7 | “You Did a Good Job, But…” | “But” erases praise; separates praise and correction, give feedback independently | “The first question you get asked is, ‘Hey, what about this B?’” – Alan [92:27] | [92:27–97:24] | | 8 | The Sandwich | “Feedback sandwich” dilutes corrective feedback and praise; focus on clear, direct communication | “If you always pair praise with ‘here’s the feedback,’ you create this CMO-R…” – Rob [98:01] | [98:10–102:39] | | 9 | Overvaluing Smart, Talented People | Don’t rely solely on “talent”; invest in training and skill-building for all | “You teach someone to the limit of your ability, not theirs.” – Diana [106:32] | [102:54–107:55] | | 10 | The Budget Process | Focus on cost-cutting undermines reinforcement/environment; budget from the ground up | “Who benefits from reducing expenses? Probably not the employees.” – Alan [111:03] | [111:09–112:50] | | 11 | Promoting People No One Likes | Supervisors must be liked to be effective; interpersonal skill trumps technical skill | “You can be liked and a bad manager, but you can’t be a good manager unless you’re well liked.” – Diana [115:28] | [112:59–117:23] | | 12 | Downsizing | Rarely improves profits; destroys morale and culture; talk to employees for efficient solutions | “You’re probably wrong [to downsize]... Talk to people actually doing the work.” – Rob [121:51] | [117:23–121:51] | | 13 | Mergers, Acquisitions & Reorgs | Benefit deal-makers, not staff; cause “culture clash”; focus on people, not just finances | “There should be a lot of positive managerial presence... [and] set very achievable short-term goals.” – Alan [124:23] | [122:01–124:23] |

Memorable Quotations

• “If I ever ask a question and you don’t know the answer, say ‘positive reinforcement’ and you’ll be right most of the time.” (Dr. Aubrey Daniels via Judy Agnew) [29:49]
• “If you are not purposefully using positive reinforcement, you are using negative reinforcement by default.” (Judy Agnew) [19:20]
• “The book is praised as readable, practical… a great starting place for behavior analysts and business managers alike.” (Diana) [37:21]
• On feedback: “You need to give me two different pieces of feedback there.” (Alan) [93:39]

3. Discussion Tone and Engagement

• Humor & Relatability: The book club maintains a playful mood, drawing in-jokes from pop culture (The Simpsons, Dave Matthews Band, Andor, etc.) and poking fun at management “oopses.”
• Practical Application: Members share personal workplace experiences (Employee of the Month blunders, feedback, budgeting woes, etc.).
• Critical Reflection: Hosts sometimes push back on the book's assumptions—especially regarding pay practices, capitalism, and the “good old days” of management.
• OBM in Human Services: They repeatedly relate OBM concepts back to ABA supervision and human service environments, expanding Daniels’ business-centric practices.
• Values-Based Supervision: The group closes by acknowledging the broader challenges facing workplaces today, but underscores that values-based OBM and positive reinforcement still matter at the level of direct supervision.

Timestamps for Notable Segments

• Dr. Judy Agnew Interview Begins: [02:34]
• Dr. Agnew on Daniels’ Legacy: [08:48], [15:45], [19:20], [29:49]
• Book Club Introductions and Framing: [34:41–39:42]
• Full Oops List Dramatic Reading: [51:48]
• Individual Oops Chapter Segments: [51:57–124:23]
• Reflective Summary & “Perfectly Motivated Employees”: [125:55–134:12]
• Excellent Closing Quote: [129:19]; [133:01]

Noteworthy Moments

• Diana’s Satirical “Boss” Rules: Throughout the book club, Diana jokingly applies many of the “oops” mistakes in her role as “the boss,” reinforcing the absurdity of these practices. [48:27–50:05]
• Pop Culture Connections: The group discusses TV (The Simpsons, Andor), music (Britney Spears, Dave Matthews), and uses these as analogies for OBM concepts.
• Personal Anecdotes: Each host shares their own “Employee of the Month” stories, performance review gripes, or budget struggles, making OBM principles highly relatable.
• Final Reflection: The group recognizes the grim reality of current organizational challenges, but encourages day-to-day supervisors to keep striving for positive, values-based change.

Conclusion / Takeaways

• The OOPS! 13 management practices are enduring mistakes in organizations of all sizes, including ABA settings.
• Positive reinforcement, clarity, individualized goals/feedback, and attention to behavioral contingencies remain at the heart of effective management—across all work environments.
• The legacy of Dr. Daniels—clear, practical application of ABA to the workplace—is as relevant as ever.
• While the state of late-stage capitalism and corporate management trends may seem discouraging, supervisors can still make a difference for their teams by putting OBM principles into action.

“If you put in the time and effort to differentiate yourself behaviorally, the rewards will be positive and certain for you and your organization, and there will be no end to what you can accomplish.” – Aubrey Daniels (from OOPS!, as quoted by Rob) [133:01]