Episode 322 - (SUPERVISION) What Do We Actually Know About Supervision w/ Dr. Natalie Andzik + Dr. Michael Kranak

Summary

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ABA Inside Track – Episode 322

(SUPERVISION) What Do We Actually Know About Supervision w/ Dr. Natalie Andzik & Dr. Michael Kranak

Original Air Date: September 17, 2025
Host(s): Robert Perry Crews, Diana Perry Cruz, Jackie McDonald
Guests: Dr. Natalie Andzik (Northern Illinois University), Dr. Michael Kranak (Oakland University)

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Overview

This episode of ABA Inside Track kicks off another “Supervision September,” with a deep, candid exploration into what science actually tells us about effective supervision in behavior analysis. Hosts Rob, Diana, and Jackie are joined by two leading researchers in supervision, Dr. Natalie Andzik and Dr. Michael Kranak, to review their own recent peer-reviewed studies as well as the broader landscape of research on BACB supervision. The episode pulls back the curtain on what we “know for sure” from the literature versus what’s mostly tradition, best guesses, or “motivational” talks, and explores both shortcomings and new opportunities for supervisors, supervisees, and researchers.

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Main Topics, Key Insights, and Structure

1. Supervision September—Setting the Stage

Rob highlights that each September, the podcast exclusively covers supervision in ABA, emphasizing the sheer volume of “thought pieces” versus data-driven supervision research.

• Key Insight: Much of what the field claims to “know” about supervision is based on personal experiences, tradition, and non-empirical writing—not systematic research.

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2. Meet the Guests: Passion, Collaboration, & Origins of Their Research (03:47–06:41)

• Natalie and Michael share the story of their professional partnership, which began in 2014 at Ohio State.
• Their collaboration grew from a mutual passion for supervision, inclusion, and supporting the broad constellation of professionals (not just those in formal supervisory contracts).

“It’s not just about when are you a supervisor and when do you have a contract? It’s like how are you talking to other human beings?” – Dr. Natalie Andzik (04:44)

Memorable moment: The playful “Lennon and McCartney” analogy for whose name goes first on publications. (08:16–09:32)

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3. What Makes a Good Supervisor—Critical Skills (10:20–14:32)

• (Michael): Receptivity to feedback (from trainees and oneself), flexibility, avoiding rigid power differentials.
• (Natalie): Emphasis on soft skills, professional boundaries, self-awareness, and the complexity of dual relationships.

“If I don’t care about you, I’m not going to give you any feedback and let you keep being a train wreck.” – Dr. Michael Kranak (11:28)

• Transparency, humanity, and managing personal context are essential for robust supervisory relationships.

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4. A Look at the Literature: Reviewing the State of Supervision Research (15:28–29:07)

Featured Articles Discussed:

• Scoping Review of Research on and Strategies for Mitigating Burnout among BCBAs (2024)
• The Softer Side of Supervision: Recommendations When Teaching and Evaluating Behavior Analytic Professionalism (2021)
• A Systematic Review of Supervision Research Related to BCBAs (2023)

Key Findings in Research:

• 75% of “supervision” articles are survey- or discussion-based; only a small minority are empirical intervention studies.
• Average survey size is only .03% of all certified BCBAs, raising questions on generalizability.

“Most of what we know is based off of folks’ experiences…50% of all articles published at the time were discussion papers.” – Dr. Michael Kranak (19:05)

• Many intervention studies have tiny samples and limited context, playing into the individualized, variable nature of supervision experiences.
• Student involvement: Their reviews often include their own graduate students as co-authors to foster research skills and move the field forward.

Discussion on Difficulties:

• The personal, context-dependent nature of supervision makes systematic, prescriptive research difficult (e.g., setting, supervisor/supervisee personality).
• Most supervisors aren’t in academic settings or positions to publish research.

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5. Why So Little Intervention Research? (22:14–26:51)

• Individual supervision contexts are highly variable, making large-scale, replicable research challenging.
• Incentivizing supervisors in practice to systematically study and publish on their supervision is difficult.

“It has to be single case, single case, single case...” – Dr. Natalie Andzik (24:41)

• There's still a heavy reliance on recommendations and articles lacking empirical support—though the field seems ready to “turn the corner” toward more data-driven research.

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6. Shopping for Tools: The Value and Limitations of Takeaway Tools (34:29–39:50)

• Many practical “tools” in the literature (e.g., checklists, forms) are based on authors’ own experiences and lack validation.
• Tools are valuable as starting points for new supervisors, but should be sampled and adapted (“shopped for”) rather than followed prescriptively.

“There’s a really wonderful place for all of these [tools]. But now let’s go see if they help. Let’s go see if they work.” – Dr. Natalie Andzik (29:58)

• Ideal: Integrate these tools as appendices in empirical articles, creating a searchable “supervision toolbox” (dream of a future “supervision journal”).

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7. Interventions and Competency: BST, Soft Skills, & Burnout

a. Behavioral Skills Training (BST) for Soft Skills and Burnout Mitigation

• BST (instructions, modeling, rehearsal, feedback) is strongly validated for teaching technical skills and can be creatively adapted for “soft skills” like professional dress, communication, and boundary setting.
• Caveats: BST's “role-play” component may not always be contextually appropriate or socially valid.
• Practical tip: Recording role-plays outside the group can reduce discomfort (e.g., via video).

“The role play piece is kind of weird… but it just has to be done. And then once it’s done, it’s usually not a huge deal.” – Dr. Natalie Andzik (62:14)

b. Burnout: Unique Challenges and Supervisor’s Role

• Burnout is often discussed, but popularly misunderstood—true burnout has specific, empirical criteria.
• Solutions must blend organizational and individual approaches; some root causes are out of a supervisor’s direct control.

“If you’re not supervising them, you’re doing a big discredit to our field.” – Jackie McDonald (74:30)

• Supervisors are ethically responsible for advocating for supervisee well-being;
• Strategies like organizational reinforcement systems (e.g., gift cards, early-release Fridays) can reduce burnout and turnover.

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8. What’s Next for Supervision Research? (Dissemination Station) (70:33–76:02)

• Calls for more empirical, intervention-based studies—less talk, more action/data.

“More data, less talk, more action…data shouldn’t be boring.” – Dr. Michael Kranak (71:44)

• Desire for greater collaboration and data sharing among university programs.
• Increase focus on supervisee perspectives and meaningful social validity (not just Likert-scale surveys).
• Broadened definition: Supervision shouldn’t only be for BACB candidates—everyone involved in client care deserves quality oversight.

Memorable advice:

“As much as we can continue to develop these types of tools and think about how we can really best accommodate for our students and their differences and think about how we want to help them become the best BCBAs that they can be, that’s the direction we should be going.” – Diana Perry Cruz (75:22)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “If I don’t care about you, I’m not going to give you any feedback and let you keep being a train wreck.”
  — Dr. Michael Kranak (11:20)
• “It is a relationship. You’re talking every week for hours...keeping those professionalism lines thick.”
  — Dr. Natalie Andzik (11:28)
• “75% of all supervision publications were either discussion-based papers or survey-based papers... 50% of those were discussion papers.”
  — Dr. Michael Kranak (16:53)
• “There’s so much out there, it’s the wild west of supervision. What is all out there? How can we provide this one comprehensive paper...?”
  — Dr. Michael Kranak (41:34)
• “Supervision is what’s going to move the field forward.”
  — Dr. Michael Kranak (73:35)
• “It’s supervision for everyone, not just supervision for the BACB candidates or the RBT candidates. That really grinds my gears.”
  — Jackie McDonald (74:03)

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Summary Table: Timestamps of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 00:13 | Opening and introductions | | 03:47 | Natalie & Michael: origin story & collaboration | | 10:20 | What makes a good supervisor? Critical skills | | 15:28 | Why a scoping review? The state of supervision research | | 18:47 | What supervision research actually looks like | | 22:14 | Why so few intervention studies? | | 34:29 | Takeaway tools: strengths and weaknesses | | 44:47 | Why focus on burnout and soft skills? | | 47:38 | Burnout—personal story & research implications | | 52:53 | Burnout: organization vs. supervisor responsibility | | 60:36 | BST: Practicalities and awkwardness with soft skills | | 70:33 | Dissemination Station: what’s next for research/practice |

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Tone and Style

The episode maintains a candid, collaborative, and at times playful tone, with frequent humor and gentle ribbing among the hosts and guests. The guests are forthright about both the promise and limitations of current supervision research, and repeatedly encourage humility, creativity, and context-sensitivity in both research and practice.

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Actionable Takeaways

• The field needs more empirically validated supervision interventions; current literature is dominated by discussion and survey papers.
• Practical tools should be adapted and critically evaluated for context; use them as inspiration, not dogma.
• Supervisors should focus on both hard (technical) and soft (professionalism) skills, and make deliberate efforts to model and teach strategies for burnout prevention.
• BST is broadly effective, but role-play and rehearsal should be adapted to social context and comfort.
• All staff engaged with clients—not only those collecting supervision hours—deserve high-quality supervision, feedback, and professional development.

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Final Thoughts

This episode delivers a pointed reminder that supervision in ABA remains as much art as science. The good news? There are abundant opportunities for supervisors, supervisees, and researchers alike to shape the next generation of best—and validated—practices.

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Contact Information:

• Dr. Michael Kranak: [e-mail] | Instagram: cat_lab
• Dr. Natalie Andzik: [e-mail]

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hey, everybody. Welcome to ABA Inside Track, the podcast that's like reading in your car, but safer. I'm your host, Robert Perry Crews, and with me, as always, are my fabulous co hosts.

[A]

Hello, Rob. It's me, Diana Perry Cruz.

[C]

And it's me, Jackie, not Perry Cruz.

[B]

Do you want to say what your last name is?

[C]

No, I'm just kidding. Jackie McDonald. Good to be here.

[B]

When we, when we incorporated our podcast company, we made Jackie legally change her name to not Perry Cruise Jackie, not Fairy Crews.

[A]

So everyone knows it rolls off the tongue.

[C]

It does. It's. It's the only thing in the emails that people are like, who's married to Rob?

[B]

It's the question everyone wants to know. I think that was one of our, one of our notes in the pod. It's like this episode you finally learned. Because I think eventually we said it. But this isn't a podcast about who is married to whom. This or pronoun or direct object preposition usage. This is a podcast about behavior analysis and behavior analytic research where every week we pick a topic and discuss some relevant research articles. And if you are listening to this in the month of September, then you already know the topic because it is super vision. That's all we talk about in September. It's the only thing, nothing else. Get out of here. Other topics, it's supervision September. And we have been doing super. How many years have we been doing supervision September now?

[A]

Nine, I think.

[B]

All the years, all the years, all.

[D]

The years, all the years.

[B]

Many, many years we have done it. And we've read lots of articles about, you know, oh, thought pieces on supervision and what does business tell us about supervision? And we took a moment and we looked at the lay of the land and we said to ourselves, hey, there's a lot of articles about. We think this is a great idea for supervision and we're great supervisors. So here's an article. And we realized that's not quite the same thing as, hey, we used these interventions and did relevant research using them, and here is the data on it, or here are the data on it, and this is the best supervision according to science. And, you know, we wondered, does anybody actually know the answer to that question? And we were very, very fortunate. And not one, but two people have, I don't know. I don't know if they want me to say that they have the answer, but they are certainly looking at the answer in a much more concrete and data driven and scientific way than I think. A lot of our supervision content in the past has been so we're very, very fortunate to have two special guests on today. We have Drs. Natalie Anzik and Dr. Michael Kranik. Thank you both for coming on today to talk about what we actually know. Like, know for sure about supervision.

[E]

No. Thank you all so much for the opportunity. This is definitely a topic that Natalie and I are, as you alluded to, incredibly passionate about. So we're very excited for the opportunity to be here today.

[D]

Oh, and Robbie, you said we have answers. You didn't tell us that you wanted us to come on this podcast with answers. Man, this will be tricky. I don't know if we have answers, but, yeah, thanks for having us. And we'll do our best to kind of summarize what we've found in our own research and looking at other people's research about superficial.

[A]

Man, what a bait and switch. Rob, I know you're like, well, we'll have a casual conversation.

[B]

You thought we were coming on to talk about pronouns and direct objects, but no, Natalie, it's supervision. I fooled you. So why don't we start off by talking a little bit about both of you, Sort of how you came to be so passionate about the content or the research of the writing, about the reading, about supervision, and maybe too, how.

[A]

You came to write such kickass articles together as a team.

[B]

Oh, yes, the team up episode.

[C]

Kk. Because we're. We're a friendly. A child friendly podcast. Who's a child friendly? Children are listening to. Super.

[D]

Listen. Children are getting CEUs. I mean, we got it. We got to get those to you. Michael, tell them how we met.

[E]

Oh, man. So Natalie and I go way back. We're besties. We met at Ohio State in 2014, fall 2014. She was working on her PhD and I was working on my master's. And ever since then, we just said, hey, we should always have a running project together. And so one area that we overlap and as far as our research interests go, is supervision. And so we've kind of just always had at least one or two projects going in the background, be that lit reviews or collaborating with, working with our students. And so that's how we came to work on these specific papers together.

[D]

Yeah. And Michael, you know, does a lot of supervision of aspiring BCBAs, and I. I do, too. But I also, you know, do a lot of work in clinics and schools where I'm just, like, supporting those paras, supporting the RBT and supporting the admin. So I'm not supporting supervising them, but when I'm in my supervision class that I'm teaching in my BCBA program here at Northern Illinois University. It's not just about when are you a supervisor and when do you have a contract? It's like how are you talking to other human beings? Like how are you talking to peers of kids and, and siblings of kids? Like so that act is you know, just generally supervision. And so I, I really like that. I really like collaborating with people. I've always been, you know, my passion is inclusion. I was especially special ed teacher for a long time and my kids were in gen ed classes so I was quote supervising gen ed teachers, supervising those gen ed peers. And so yeah, it just kind of became a passion of mine. Like how do you like be nice to other people to make sure they're nice to your clients.

[B]

Yeah, I appreciate you saying that, you know, directly Natalie, because I think reading all Yalls papers I had the sense that you saw supervision, that you both saw supervision as more than just like you said, you have to have a contract. And then here are the steps to do to make sure your, your, your supervisee can sit for the BACB exam that it really was this all encompassing set of skills in which you know, certain ones are going to be more or less formalized but you have to be wearing your supervisor hat pretty much anytime you are working with somebody who is listening to you or you know, unless it's maybe like a client stakeholder, that might be the only time. But even then most of the skills that I would say is, you know, I've read about or I've used in my own supervision, you know, you're pulling from those skills all the time. You know, it's like a really great skill set to have though while we mostly talk about supervision in September for you know, that very specific content of supervising folks who are going to get ready to become BCBAs. You know, we really do love that you also have that same sense of. It should be more all encompassing.

[D]

Yeah, definitely. Thanks for that.

[A]

You have to supervise more than just in September too, year round.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I just thought you got really good at September and then took the rest of the years. The rest of the year off.

[A]

No, no, no, no. That's why, that's why it's an important topic.

[B]

My contracts only go from beginning of to end of September. I'm really great that month.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And then if you fall asleep, then we can play the Green Day song.

[B]

So Daniel, what are the articles we'll be discussing today?

[A]

Oh, why sure, let me tell you what some of those are in no particular.

[B]

Just tell Me? All of them. You don't have to tell me some of them.

[A]

Oh, you want all of them?

[B]

I want all the articles.

[A]

I'm actually about to tell you about the wrong episode. So that was a good catch on my part. Yes. So our guests have provided us, have provided us with three articles to take a look at today. And they include, in no particular order, a scoping review of research on and strategies for mitigating burnout among board Certified Behavior Analysts by Cranick, Anzik, Jones and Grunwald that was published in Behavior Analysis research and practice 2024. Also the softer side of Supervision Recommendations when Teaching and Evaluating Behavior Analytic Professionalism by Anzik and Cranick and also published in Behavior Analysis Research and Practice, but this time in 2021. And finally, a Systematic Review of Supervision Research Related to Board Certified Behavior Analysts by Cranick, Anzik, Jones and Hall. That was in Behavior analysis in practice 2023.

[B]

All right, so three very good articles, very broad in terms of topics, talking about burnout. We're talking about, you know, supervision, soft skills, and we're just talking about supervision techniques in general. So a lot of interesting areas to be discussing in the time we have today. But I thought I'd lead us off with a question that I just thought of based on something you said. Michael, you mentioned the two of you just always wanted to do work together. And I was like, kind of like a Lennon and McCartney of, of research. Do you have a rule for whose name goes first on the articles like Lennon and McCartney did, or is it flip a coin? What do you do?

[E]

Generally the rule that we operate is whoever comes up with the last idea, the next person comes up with the next idea, and then we flip flop whoever it's named. So for example, Natalie came up with the softer, with the soft skills paper. So she took first author and she led that project. Then the next one was the supervision lit review.

[B]

I.

[E]

That was one of my brain children. And then so we said, okay, I'll go first, you go second. And then same thing held true with the burnout review. I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Another idea. Let's, you know, let's strike while the iron's hot. And so that's just kind of how we have operated with the projects that we have together.

[B]

Okay, very cool. So, so, so it sounds like you are, you're thinking way ahead in terms of like all your credits so that for your 50th album, you know, you're still, you're still good to Go. I love it.

[E]

Yeah, exactly.

[D]

Actually, he's, he's not being truthful. It's actually like a cage match. We just like fight and whoever comes out on top is the first author. That's usually how it works.

[A]

Okay. I mean, that's fair too.

[B]

You know, these are the things you only learn about.

[A]

That's how Jackie and I do.

[D]

It's great you heard it here first.

[E]

Yeah. Inside look behind the peer review curtain.

[B]

So I kind of want to start off with some general, general supervision talk. And then I want to sort of, you know, we can drill a little bit more into some of the articles when it comes to being a quality, you know, doing quality supervisory work. What would you both say are some of like, the key components of being a good supervisor? Like, what do you need to be able to, to talk the talk when you want and walk the walk of supervision?

[E]

I looked at this too, and then I know that, you know, maybe jumping the gun a little bit, you might ask, well, what does it, what does it mean to be a quality supervisee or a quality trainee? And my answer to that question is the same for both. And obviously you can apply these differently. But the first is be receptive to feedback, especially as a supervisor, because there is an inherent power imbalance there where, like, you're the all knowing bcba, you're the all knowing supervise, you're going to sign off on, you know, their requirements and whatnot, but making sure that if your mentorship style or your supervision style isn't aligning with the goals of your supervisee or your trainee, be able to adjust that and just take that feedback and say, okay, I could do better here. Thank you so much for telling me that. Flip that around. Be sure to instill in your trainees and supervisees that when you're giving them feedback, you only give feedback to people you care about. If I don't care about you, I'm going to not give you any feedback and let you keep being a train wreck. Like, why, why would I give somebody feedback if I don't want to see them improve? And that's definitely something that I stress with my students and trainees from the onset of our supervision experiences.

[D]

Yeah. And it's just, it's just always just, it's, it's all the same stuff, like just good soft skills. Right. Professionalism, care, caring about each other. Like, you know, it is a relationship. It is not just. And you know, we talk about dual relationships and things do get murky. You know, we've had a lot of questions in my classes about that, like, hey, we're friends, but now we're, you know, in the supervisory relationship. But it is a relationship, you know, you're talking every week hours, you know, and. Yeah, and going through some hard stuff or ups and downs, drama, parents and things. So open communication and just keeping those professionalism kind of, you know, that line pretty thick. You know, we might be going out to have coffee to. To have our supervision meeting, but that's kind of where it ends. Just keeping it really professional. I've seen a lot of bad things slip when those multiple relationship relationships start. Start to develop. And it's really hard. You know, I'm teaching ethics this summer, and it's like, oh, my gosh, how do you avoid this? It's, you know, and as you all know, ethics is so gray. It's so hard because you are spending so much time with these people. But just recognizing that the two of you do need to keep those hats on. Like, you've got your clinical supervisor hat. You've got, you know, you're. You're an RBT at the time, you're getting your hours. But I am the supervisor in this relationship, and I am the supervisee in this relationship. That does keep things pretty professional and does help keep those lines from blurring.

[E]

And I also say recognizing those hats, too. So, for example, we all have things going on outside of that supervisory relationship that might impact what we're doing within the supervisory relationship. We're not just supervisor and supervisee. For example, in this, what, 2025. In 2023, one of my cats suddenly passed away. Later that week, I had, you know, three supervision meetings. I had to teach class. I had a couple meetings with other stakeholders. I sent out an email to everybody, like, hey, you know, I just want you to know that this is going on. If I seem unattentive or if I'm, you know, maybe not as patient as I normally am, or if I'm a little sharper in how I'm talking. It is not a reflection on you. It's not a reflection on anything that we're talking about. It has everything to do with me. And I cannot tell you how many. Hopefully, you know, everybody's like, oh, so sorry to hear. You know, everybody's like, thank you for, you know, giving us this heads up. You know, we're not going to hold anything against you, of course. And so I think being transparent that if you have some other things going on, like, that's going to make the relationship go much more smoothly, at least in my Opinion and perspective.

[A]

I think that's part of recognizing the humanity of everyone in the relationship too. Right. And that's what you were saying earlier, Michael, as well, is like, I'm going to give you feedback here because I care about you and I care about your professional development and growth. And I recognize you as not just my trainee, but like, someday my colleague and someone who's going to contribute to this field. And we're all coming to this with slightly different background, slightly different histories, and our own, like, kind of quirks and personality. But moving through that together is the. Is the process, right? Like, that's the relationship is. Is how you're going to move through that together, so.

[E]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So thank you both for sharing, kind of, you know, kind of your number ones, number twos, you know, your top, top skills to be looking for. A lot of the work that at least we read for this episode really covered more kind of broad research reviews. And I certainly know we always love hearing kind of the story of, how did you decide, let's do this research review? How did you develop the protocol for it? Because, I mean, there's so many different articles, you know, that you could be looking at ways that you could do the review, different questions to look at the same research. Supervision feels like one of those topics that. And I think you even wrote, like, most of the research was written from, you know, and you look back, it's not even that long that we've been actually writing about supervision in this time. So I always wanted to question, like, were you, like, what should we write about supervision? There's just not that much research. Well, we'll get that done in an afternoon. Right. You know, so. So where did, where did the idea come from? How did you develop the kind of idea to do your kind of review of what's out there for supervision?

[E]

I think we had just been seeing so many presentations on the topic, and then also just, you can't open LinkedIn or Instagram or any social media website without seeing posts or comments or discussions on supervision. And I'm sure a lot of that has to do with the fact that you have to get, you know, X number of supervision ceus every certification cycle. So it makes a lot of sense. But I think one thing that really stuck out to, to Natalie and me was, you know, there's a lot of talk about and around supervision. And most of the presentations that we were seeing at the time were to be a little candid, more motivational in the. In their topic, and they were long on motivation, short on beta. And I'm not saying I want someone to stand up in front of a crowd and tell me, you know, your exact IOA coefficients, but I am expecting there to be some empirical data because that is what our field is. You know, we are, we are a science. And so we're like, huh, I wonder if what we're seeing sort of in this presentation, you know, Zeitgeist is mapping on with what's happening in peer reviewed publications. And lo and behold, that's exactly what we found, is that 75%, at the time of our review, 75% of all supervision publications were either discussion based papers or survey based papers, including 50% of those were discussion papers. And so I think that that was essentially what spurred us to do that. Natalie and I recalling correctly.

[D]

Yeah, I mean, it's also just like these survey papers that, you know, I'm sorry, your question is about how we kind of got going and now we're trying to, like, we're kind of in the thick of the weeds here. But you know, when we started looking at these papers and one of the reasons also what motivated us to start looking at this was selfish. We have supervisees. We want our students to get involved in research. And the best way to really get them to understand what's out there and be part of that was to do the. So all of the extra authors you'll ever see on all of our papers are our students. There are supervisees, there are trainees, there are master's students, there are grad students. So it's nice to just get them involved. And Michael and I both feel like if we want to get them to be researchers and better and do better and be part of the change and have more data based on, you know, products, it's to involve them. So that's kind of how we got going. We're supervising these people. Like, hey, like how do we, for example, how do we teach soft skills? Like, how do we. What. What is the research out there about this topic? Like, what are we doing about burnout? Like, we have like a student who's talking about it. We're like, let's research that. So that's kind of how we get going on all of our papers is just like what's currently pressing us in the moment.

[B]

Yeah, so you had a whole bunch of supervision articles. You were coding them into different sections. I think, Michael, you mentioned a couple of. Certainly the idea which ones are just discussion topics. I think survey was another one. And then I can't remember if there was a Fourth, but I know intervention. How many supervision studies looked at an intervention related to improving supervision in some form and got actual results using, you know, an experimental design? I'd love it. You know, kind of what were the general findings? Like how many in the different, you know, Michael, you mentioned a couple, but what were some of the other. You don't have to give like exact percentages but like generally what were you finding to be, you know, you know, true in terms of what's out there for supervision?

[E]

You're going to make me recall immediately off the top of my head. Thank goodness I've got the article pulled up on my other monitor over here in the command.

[B]

You don't need your percent. I have them somewhere in the notes below. You don't need exact percentages. You know, I think it was very, you know, reading it, it was, it was very like geez, that's. It was very shocking kind of.

[E]

Yeah, yeah, it's like we said a few minutes ago, it's like most of the, most of what we know is based off of folks experiences. And so like we mentioned, 50% of all articles published at the time were discussion papers. And what I think too is, you know, everybody likes to talk about these really nice survey papers that have come out there. One thing that I encourage my students and you know, your listeners right now is when we look at the results from any survey, the average number of respondents in all of the supervision surveys, 237. That represents 0.03% of about 77,000 certific certified BCBAs. And so I think that sometimes those survey results are maybe presented as the ground truth or being representative of all BCBAs. And I think it's important to remember that no, this, these results are coming from less than 1% of all certified behavior analysts. And so I think that is a big. And also to be clear, that doesn't mean there's no value in those data. I want to be very clear about that. But it is a reminder of hey, the generality is probably lacking. It's not as representative as we would hope a larger sample size or a larger powered survey study would be.

[A]

Yeah, and as a self selecting group that chose to complete a survey.

[E]

Exactly. You know, one thing that I wish was possible is you know, when we distribute sort of these surveys and Madly and I, we published a survey on ironically CEU accrual and you know, it is so hard to get folks to respond to surveys. So I am very sympathetic to that. At the same time, you know, I can look at this both as a consumer of the. Of the research and also as a responder. And so say, okay, like, I understand this, and this is not as representative as we would hope or as it's being presented.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So when it comes to sort of looking at so much of our research and so much of what we're saying, hey, you know, let's keep that echo chamber. We read research with so much of it being either survey of a very small group with, you know, potentially no. No generality discussion pieces, which, again, it's. It's great to hear people have been doing the job for a long time, share their thoughts and say, here's a tool I use. Maybe you'll like it too. Is not the same as here's a tool that's used by thousands of people, and here's why it's better to use this tool than no tool or this tool in a different tool. And then the interventions, and I think it was like, you didn't have too many interventions that you found, I gotta say, two out of three of the ones you discussed in the paper. So I think those are the three that were published. Ones were written by two of the people who are on this podcast, and they weren't you guys, and it wasn't me. So there's only two other people. Why?

[C]

Who were they?

[D]

Yeah, I don't know. How does that leave us? I'm.

[B]

You know, the listeners have to do the math.

[A]

I would say there was a lot in the works in terms of theses and dissertations that are hopefully in the publication pipeline.

[B]

But why do you think that is? You know, we're such a field of, you know, real, you know, tight science and experimental design. Why is supervision a topic in which we're just kind of. We're not. We're not doing intervention studies as much. Why do you think that might be?

[D]

Yeah, I. I think that it's just supervision is so personal. Where are you getting your supervision? Are you in a clinic? Are you in a home? Are you in a hospital? Are you in a public school? Are you in a private school? You know, like. And who are you? What's your background? You know, what is. What is your makeup? What is your experience? Who's your supervisor? Are you close? Are they mean. Are they kind of rude to you? Are you in group supervision? Are you paying for supervision? You're only doing a little bit. You're doing it over five years. Are you funded? And it's. And it's intense, and you're, you know, it's all the Time. And every week, you know, it's so different for everyone. Like we would never have like a straight prescription of something for a kid with very significant autism or down syndrome, right? Like, everything has to be adjusted, even the way we visually analyze our data in single case. You know, everyone was like, it has to be this way. And it's like, but it can't be that way if kids, everyone is so different. So I think it's really hard to have like a prescription, something that we can like assess because everyone's so unique. It has to be single case, single case, single case. And yes, you know, what we know about evidence based practices and what works Clearinghouse. And yes, enough replication of a single case design and you know, enough places now it can be an evidence based practice, but everyone's got to get on board with that. But like, who wants to do a single case with like five supervisors? And you know, well, that's not going to work with my group because they were in a clinic and I'm at home. And so I think that's probably a big reason why we're not seeing more empirical, like data based studies, you know, emerge. You know, I just did a review for a paper that's, you know, in, in, you know, in the works. It's not, you know, you know, private, super top secret. I can't tell you anything about it. But it was really cool to read that they, they did, they piloted a really cool thing. I had a lot of feedback like, hey, more data here, more data here. But I think people are out there trying to do that. But those, just, just thinking about that article, they had a lot, they had a pretty big sample size because they had a huge, a huge company. So they had a ton of people. So just like the average researcher, you know, a faculty member, right? Not everyone's taking on a load of supervisors, right? So your, your average supervisor is, is in a clinic, right? They're getting paid X amount of dollars per year and a percentage of their time is supervision. And they're not, they're not researching, not, they're not publishing. So I think there's a lot of reasons why there's not a lot of data about like this is what we should try and do. This works, try, you know, with your group, let's replicate. Just because of the very individual nature.

[E]

Of, you know, everyone's story, I, I think too, when we think about what it means, you know, we opened the podcast with what it means to be a supervisor, you know, there is a set of things as indicated by the bacb that we have to hit in the goals of that relationship probably, you know, obviously taking data is a great thing to do as a to being a quality supervisor. At the same time, you know, working as an apathy was just describing and conducting a single case study within the context of supervision. Probably not, but 1, 2, 3, 4, maybe even top five things that we're trying to target as supervisors for our supervisees. And so I think that's totally fine and to recognize that as well. I think another reason. And Natalie, you were just talking about that you're reviewing a paper so I want to de identify anybody. So I'm an associate editor for Behavior analysis and practice and I handle a lot of supervision related submissions. Most of the submissions that I see and they're still coming out, they're trickling out are still discussion based papers. And I think because there is a precedent that hey, these papers seem to be valuable, there is precedent for publishing them. But I think that most folks involved in that process now are starting to say okay, let's maybe pump the brakes on these recommendation discussion based papers. Maybe that well has run dry a little bit. Maybe it is time to start taking these recommendations and actually evaluate them in a sort of empirical fashion. I saw a great example of this that just came out in the Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis, Shout out Abby Blackner. And I think just last week where they evaluated, you know, LeBlanc and Nosek put out a paper in Bab about how to plan and lead effective meetings and black men at all recently evaluated how do you plan to lead effective meetings? Because I'm sure all of us need another meeting on our calendar like we need a hole in our heads. So I'm sure that we have probably spent a fair amount of times in meetings that could have been emails. And so I think that is a really nice example of here are some recommendations. Now let's empirically evaluate them directly within a behavior analytic context. So I would love to see more of that happen and I think it will.

[B]

Michael, not to on that. On that topic we do. It's next month listeners. We do our grab bags where we each pick a relate. You know, articles we just want to talk about that aren't theme based. I actually just put that one into our folder to review on the show because I was, because I was reviewing my notes for today and I said oh my God, this is exactly what we're going to be talking about. So I want to, I want to so double, double toot of the horn to that, to that Group for practicing what? I think we're. We're going to be preaching a bit today.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, very cool.

[A]

But I, I think that this trend that you're discussing here is one that we've seen in other areas in our field as well. Right. So this is the same pattern that we've seen when we think about cultural responsiveness and the skills related to that and the same that we've seen with compassionate care and the skills related to that. Yes. Oh, I know. Very good. I'm getting a lot of nonverbal feedback.

[E]

From listeners up there. Yes, yes. More passionate, more passion topics here. Yes. But anyway, sorry to continue.

[A]

No, no, that. So, so I think this is on track. Right. And it's a healthy direction that we see in our science that first we think about what we want to study and we write about that, and then we drill down into the weeds of how are we actually going to study it and demonstrate what are the most effective ways to do that. So we're seeing that growth as well in the area of supervisory practices.

[E]

100%. And it's not a bad thing to highlight this. It's a good thing. It shows that there's opportunities for growth and opportunities to improve in what we're doing. And, you know, if there's any master students out there listening to this and you need a thesis idea, go pick any of the tools that were published or that we listed that have been published on supervision and go and periodically validate it. There's a slam dunk, you know, publication, in my opinion. So go forth, evaluate and publish. Go off kings and queens. Come on.

[B]

And you do. I do want to say you both did an excellent job in the paper laying out. These are the tools that are recommended to use. Here's what they do, here's what they say they can help with. They're not empirically validated though, which. Yeah, totally. I'm always shocked that those articles don't come out. And all of a sudden every grad student is like, thank God I don't have to think for any longer. I can just grab this one and I got the article that has all the references I'm just going to go paste through. I mean, it's like you did their homework for them.

[D]

Yeah, but you know what, can I just give a plea to all the authors, man? Can we make them fillable PDFs or Word documents? I tell you, the amount of, the amount of those wonderful takeaways that I've had to convert to Word and then convert back and then change and edit. We have got to do better about making those fillable PDFs or words. Those takeaways are so, so helpful. I mean, I'm using one of those right now in my ethics class. They're super nice, not supervision related. I apologize, but I'm using a takeaway from a, from an ethics paper, and it's so lovely and so helpful. And as a faculty, I'm like, I'm not having to reinvent the wheel. I don't have to open up a blank word document these. There's a really wonderful place for all of these. But now let's go see if they help. Let's go see if they work. Let's get feedback from our supervisors. Let's, you know, let's publish it. Let's get that out there and see. Are these actually working for us?

[A]

But don't you get excited when you get to make a new spreadsheet?

[D]

Yeah. Open up an, you know, and freeze that first row and make it gray.

[A]

Yep. I'll spend a whole afternoon just on that. But that's a different podcast.

[B]

See, that feels like an AI Use of, like, AI.

[D]

What?

[A]

Don't take away my favorite thing.

[B]

Please take this table and like, make it so I can fill out a thing in Excel. Like, go do this.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I tried to do the calendar with AI and it was like, do you want a list and word? I'm like, no, you're not doing it right. So I don't. I don't see what the fuss is about. Doesn't do it.

[A]

Yeah. And different podcasts.

[E]

Yeah, different podcasts. But it is amazing how sometimes even the machines can't do what we're asking them to do. Like, please just put this into a nice little Excel template. And it's like, you want me to what? It's like, okay, fine, I'll. I'll do it myself.

[B]

I can summarize the tool and give you lie lying information about it if you want, but I can't quite put it in a fillable PDF. I don't know why. Hey, everybody, sorry to pause the show real quick, but we need to take a little break. We'll be back with more from Dr. Cranick and Dr. Anzik in just a moment. We'll be right back.

[D]

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[C]

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[B]

And we are back talking with Dr. Michael Kranik and Dr. Natalie Anzik all about what we know about supervision. But before we continue that topic, I want to remind all our listeners that ABA Inside Track is ACE and Quaba approved. And by listening you're able to earn one supervision ce. All you need to do is finish listening to the show, then go to our website abainsidetrack.com or click the link in your podcast player notes area to put in some key information about yourself as well as our secret code words. These are special secret guest code words. The first of those code words is cats. C A T S. Whether you have cats around you as you're listening, whether you are enjoying the movie Cats or the soundtrack, Cats is the code word for you.

[D]

Cats.

[B]

All right, let's see.

[A]

Thankfully it's not Jenny. Any dots?

[B]

Oh, yikes. No. Thank you. Let's get back to our conversation. Natalie, thank you. That's kind of one of the weaknesses of some of these tools is they're they're hard to replicate without some extra steps. You know, sometimes it's easier to find them online too, in the additional, you know, sections of some of these articles. But do you still find like a value like as you're reading all of these studies and you're getting all of these takeaway tools? I think the challenge I always see with the takeaway tools is they are very much we, as somebody who's done a lot of supervision, made these to make our lives easier. So we like them and maybe you'll like them too, which does give them that lived in feel. But like we've been talking about, that doesn't necessarily make them relevant to my supervisory context. So when, when you're seeing all these tools, when you were summarizing these tools, I mean, were you feeling kind of optimistic about them? Were you sort of in that critical mindset of like, yeah, bud, these could be better. Here's how we need to make them better. Like, what are the other strengths and weaknesses of sort of. If I just said, you know what, I'm going to take all the tools and make a binder and that's my supervision technique from here on out. Like, bad idea, good idea. What do you think?

[D]

You know, it's kind of like teacher pay teacher. You know, I'm a, I teach in the teacher prep program. You know, it's not a psych program where we have our BCB program. And it's like you can go online and find all these things, you know, like, and are they helpful? I don't, I don't know. I mean, at some point you do have to personalize your things. Like even our soft skills paper, you know, that we had, we had some charts and things that were, you know, take away, they have to, they have to be personalized. And that's maybe, I think, but at the end of the day, I think it is, it is a good starting point. All of them, we looked at all of them, we're like, oh, that's, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have done it that way. That's cool. Like, you know, it's, it's like, you know, no one really wants to open up a blank word document and make a data sheet for, you know, and you name it, right? But having something that's already completed, at least it's inspiration and gets people thinking. Like, you know, when we talk about having these critical conversations or there's been a lot of really nice work from our colleagues about that. Like the sticky stuff, like what happens when, you know, like your supervisor's kind of a jerk or how do you handle these complicated conversations? No one needs a chart for that. No one needs a, no one needs a PDF with drop down menus. You know, you just need to have some strategies and some maybe opening phrases or even just like a chart of like, well, if you go to your supervisor and they don't, you don't remedy, like, then what do you go to the admin? Do you report them to the ethics board? Like, yeah, so sometimes it does feel a little bit pushed. Like we don't, we don't, I don't need a chart for that kind of strategy. But I, it's in, in other cases it is really helpful to just like get the ball rolling just to not have to Start from scratch.

[C]

It's like one thing when I'm supervising. I. I'm always thinking about, like, oh, I have to start something new. And then that goes to the bottom of my list, right? And I do all the other easier things, and then that comes back, and the next day I put it on my list again right at the bottom. And so at least if something's there, it might, you know, the response effort is lower. So supervisors may be more willing to, you know, modify it and use it and then be better supervisors.

[E]

And there's definitely value in the tools. I think that that's something that Natalie and I want to be crystal clear about. You know, for example, I forget if it's Turner et al, 2016 or Valentino at all. 2016. It came out in the special issue on supervision and bat. But I think they talk about the sort of strengths and weaknesses of what you might cover in group supervision versus individual one on one supervision. And I think that's a great, you know, takeaway tool. Okay. Like, maybe these are some things that are more amenable to a group format. Or, you know, when I think about the number of new recently certified BCBAs who now have to wait, you know, a year before they're allowed to supervise independently. All of these recommendations and these tools are probably a great starting point for someone who does not have a ton of experience under the belt. Under their belts. Excuse me. And so I think that, yeah, that's definitely a valuable aspect right there. But to come back, you know, there's the same side of that or the other side of that same coin is. And remember, we really haven't validated them in this context. We don't know if we use, you know, takeaway tool X, does that improve supervisory skill?

[B]

Why?

[E]

And like I mentioned earlier, that's not a bad thing. That's just a thing that we can talk about and make sure that, you know, this is an opportunity to improve the very rich evidence base underlying supervision.

[D]

Yeah, and I do. I like the shopping aspect of it. You know, I. I'm more inclined to suggest to my students and my new newer BCBAs all of these different tools from all of these different authors. Then I would say go buy this workbook by this one group of author. It's their, like, opinion and their experience and like their, you know, their literal lived experience has created this workbook when it's all together and it's bound and it's, you know, 1999 on Amazon. I appreciate that. But that's just that one perspective. And you Know, so I do like the idea of shopping around these different authors. And some of these authors that created these tools were really new in their, in the field. They were, you know, taking their thesis and dissertations and publishing them. So, like, these are like the fresh minds, right? Coming up with these cool ideas. So I do like that shopping aspect. Like, I need this one little thing. I don't need a. A 49.99 workbook, but I do just need, you know, I do like that aspect of these takeaways. It's very helpful.

[B]

There's kind of this chicken and egg piece when it comes to some of these takeaways of. It is so nice when you don't know how to do a skill to have somebody say, here, just use the thing I made. But then if you don't have the skill already to know, well, here's what I like about this. Here's what I don't like about this for my client. Here's how I'm going to change it to make it better for me and my clients. But if you don't know that because you just bought it because you don't know how to do supervision, how are you supposed to know that this isn't good for what you. And it just, it just feels like this weird, like, well, you know, amalgam of we've done this long enough. It kind of all smushes together of like, I like this because I know I don't want to make these types of spreadsheets. Like, I don't want to make the spreadsheets Diane is making. But I know enough about what I need them for to know how I'm going to change them to fit in the context to, to benefit my supervisees versus her supervisees.

[E]

Right?

[B]

But you either know it or you don't. And that can, that can put you. So I think there's still room for that empirical validation of, like, which of these are the ones like, you give them to my first supervisee, you know, supervisor to just use as is or use with these tweaks, there's still room for growth.

[E]

And some things that we do in supervision are common sense, right? Or some things that we think would help. You know, a couple issues are probably common sense. So. And I think this is particularly important to keep in mind because, you know, the behavior analytic marketplace is getting much larger. And so I feel like every day I'll open up Facebook and I see an ad for some new supervision. Xyz, you name it. And I remember when Natalie and I were. I Think kicking around the. Not to get too spicy, but we were kicking around the soft skills paper. And one resource that we looked at, you know, one of their main recommendations was buy a planner. And we're like, oh, that's. That seems pretty common sense if you're. If you're struggling with time management, buy a planner, buy a calendar. Like, yes, that. Would you believe that that makes sense? And so I think being a little bit mindful and just careful of what we're choosing to consume, one thing that.

[C]

I think would be really awesome and helpful as I was listening, is if all these takeaways were in empirical articles, right. As appendices. Because then people would be forced to go to the research that, like, maybe there's like a whole supervision journal, right? Or there's like one place where someone can subscribe to supervision and there's all the research and there are the appendices, right? Like when you buy a book and like, there's like, we're just reading. We're reading Another book for.

[D]

Oops.

[C]

13 Management Strategies for Supervision.

[B]

That's the name of the book, Jack, you didn't just make a mistake. And then.

[C]

Yes, but I do that every time. And at the end they have this performance matrix, which I really love.

[D]

Right.

[C]

And it's in the book. But wouldn't it be nice if we had a supervision journal that instead of going to Facebook Marketplace, everyone could go to the supervision journal, and then every article had to have a takeaway that somebody could use as part of their supervision? Like, wouldn't that be amazing right now?

[E]

Jackie, thank you so much. Because, Rob, you asked earlier, what was one of the things that inspired us for the supervision paper that that was something too, is we wanted to have, like, there's so much out there. It's the wild west of supervision. What is all out there? How can we provide sort of this one comprehensive paper that can serve as a resource not just for supervisors and trainees, but those in training programs who have to teach a supervision class. Here is this one comprehensive resource that lists every supervision paper published between now and September 2023 or whenever we completed that. And so, yeah, 100%. Or if you had a podcast that was doing an entire month series on supervision, that's probably a really great resource for folks to have as well.

[A]

Yeah, well, about two years ago, we were like, oh, no.

[D]

Have we covered all of the supervision? The answer. Yeah, the answer may have been yes.

[C]

I got nervous. I got nervous.

[A]

But things have picked back up. So there's.

[B]

We started putting the Supervision books in. Because we're like, we're out of. Right. We need some help.

[E]

Yeah, there are some awesome books out there. I especially love the LeBlanc et al 2020 book that just came out.

[B]

That's a really good one.

[D]

So good. It's amazing.

[C]

We use it in our course as well.

[A]

What was I going to say? I was going to say something which was that just as in all of the other areas of our field, right, like, there's really clear parallels in how we should be approaching our working with our trainees and how we approach working with clients. So even if there is, you know, maybe some type of standardized skill assessment that we do for trainees, that doesn't then mean that we need to. Just as the same with the VB MAP or whatever it might be, it doesn't mean that that's then going to need to be prescriptive in how we approach supervision. Right. And it. If you are new to that area or are attempting to use maybe a book or something that doesn't go into that level of nuance, then you might just try to just like plow through like skill after skill after skill. That shouldn't be recommended for clients or trainees as well. So I think that's. This is going back to everyone's point about the pick and choose and go shopping around, right. To find what you're going to be a good fit for you and your trainee specifically.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Just so folks don't think that after you, you know, you published this scoping review that you've just been too sad to talk about supervision because the state isn't where you want it to be. You also have published on, you know, making tools. You've also published on skills to use for supervision. So I'd like to make sure we also focus on some of the work you've also done in terms of recommending actual supervisory action rather than just, you know, the conversation we've had where we're like, there's a lot of nice stuff, but we'd like to see more certainly your work on burnout, mitigating burnout as a supervisor, you know, what are the skills that you can teach your supervisee? And then also soft skills, which are, you know, as, as research has told us, everyone agrees we probably need soft skills, though maybe not everyone agrees we should put that in our supervision package. So I kind of like to switch gears a little bit on that. Let's see any, any kind of interesting anecdotes about how you came to pick those two as topics you Wanted to cover more, either in review or in kind of sharing resources.

[D]

That's a great question. No, I'd like to say there's some. This, like, you know, really inspiring story. You know, there was like a dog with three legs that we saved from, you know, a storm, you know, in a tornado, and it inspired us to write these. But I think it literally just comes like. We're just like, think. We just come. It comes in our brain and we're like, let's think about it. It's conversations with our students or issues, right? Like, with the soft skills. It comes down to like, hey, I'm seeing a lot of issues, like, with my students. Like, we're talking about punctuality. We're talking about in my, you know, current students. It's like, AI, right? Like, you know, that's a soft skill. Like, when do you use it? How do you adjust? Like, when do you tweet professional dress? You know, like, when we have issues with our own. In our own practice is usually what informs us when we are like, hey, let's write a paper about that. Let's see what's already written about that, and let's see if we can't take any of the principles that we already know to be good behavior analytic principles, and can we apply it here? And so that's kind of our motivation for the soft skills paper was just like, hey, like, Michael and I have been doing a lot of bst, right? For me, I'm an AAC researcher. I work with kids who use aac and I work with paras and teachers who support those kids. And so I'm using BST all day, right? And so we're like, could we apply this to some of these soft skill, you know, like, weird gray area behaviors that are not really, really easily defined even in some cases. And that's kind of how that paper kind of came about. And I think that was actually really fun for us to write.

[B]

It was.

[E]

It was kind of fun. Ironically, you know, we talk about how many recommendation and discussion style papers are out there. Natalie and I had a heck of a time getting that, Getting that paper accepted, which was interesting. A lot of the reviewer feedback was you didn't empirically validate this. And so I'm like a little pot to kettle home cooking action going on here. But I digress because it's out there so I can talk a little bit about the burnout. And one thing that I actually try to do in any paper that I write or publish is I try to sprinkle in personal Easter eggs for people that know me. So, you know, for example, enough recent paper that just came out with my colleague Adam Briggs. You know, there's an example in there about someone who's afraid of needles. I don't like needles or blood draws. I absolutely hate getting them done. So the burnout paper, or the burnout review was actually inspired by a burnout discussion paper that I wrote, which was called Put out the Fire Before It Spreads. And I forget the rest of the title, but what inspired that was my wife, who is also a bcda, and she was having a pretty difficult time at work at one of her places of employment. And that was just honestly, one of my love languages to show her some support was to write and publish a paper for her and be like, hey, like, we all need to, like, address burnout before we get there. And so that was then, ultimately what inspired the scoping review. I would also say that.

[C]

Is she happy about it or not?

[E]

Oh, yeah, 100%.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

She. She loves it. Yeah. She is my biggest supporter. Shout out Sarah, who is trying to get our son, whose name is Jack Michael. So if you're. Yes. Yes. This is actually now my litmus test to know if you, like, really get behavior analysis is when I tell you that my wife is also a BCBA and her son's name is Jack Michael. If you don't, like, have that reaction that you all just had, we probably should not see you ever again.

[D]

Yeah. Oh, good.

[B]

I'm glad. I'm glad we had the right respons.

[E]

Yes. From your mouth to God's ears, as I like to say. I'm sorry. That's really sweet.

[A]

That was a sweet story.

[D]

That's where we are.

[E]

Yes. We were talking about the. Oh. Similar to the supervision stuff is there's a lot of talk about and around burnout. And one of the things that Natalie and I learned was burnout has a very specific definition. And so what I think people are tacting as air quotes for the listeners. Burnout, your EO for work is just lowered. You have a pretty strong AO right now for work. Your EO for break is probably really high. And so recognizing that our EOs do ebb and flow, that's totally all out. And, you know, I'm sure that I've used. Oh, I'm sober now. I feel sober now right now. And burnout is, you know, it's a very individualized aspect and phenomenon as well. And so everybody's threshold for when they constitute or meet burnout is, of course, going to differ on a case by case basis. But I think to talk about burnout, well, let's actually look at what behaviors we engage in when we're feeling burnout. A lot of them are escape maintained or of winds maintained behaviors. What's a common treatment for escape maintained problem behavior? Antecedent intervention. So why don't we take an antecedent approach to preventing burnout? And so I think that's one of the big things that we like to sort of shake our fist at the clouds in the sky about.

[B]

At least I do, I did appreciate in the scoping review of kind of what do we know about burnout? What does the research tell us about burnout? First, the definitions, but also I think the acknowledgment that while there are actions that the individual can do, that some of the context for burnout are coming at the organizational level. I wasn't really sure I'd seen a lot of the discussions on burnout. It felt like we had a year of everyone's burnout. So everyone's talking about burnout at every single conference. And it, it did seem like a lot of them were, here's what you need to do. And sometimes while a lot of those recommendations I think are very useful, you know, some of the ones I think were in the article. Things like, you know, putting yourself first or putting your interests first, working in a team you like, you know, sound very actionable. If you're, if you're in a, you know, organization that doesn't value any of those things or maybe isn't valuing you, your ability to control or to mitigate burnout is going to be kind of, you know, limited. Do you find supervision being kind of the. A weird middle ground to help with that, or is it more just something that you need to teach your supervisees these techniques so they know when to kind of cut bait with the organization of like, this isn't a just you problem. This is a everybody problem.

[D]

Yeah, that's a really, really interesting, you know, question. And again, I'm teaching ethics this summer and that's that we're right on the line there. Like, what is our ethical responsibility as a supervisor to see some, you know, you know, younger bcbas, the people that you're over overseeing. Again, I say supervision right now. Right? My, right now my definition of supervision is you're like overseeing other bcbas, right? Like, that's what I'm saying. You're supervising all these other bcbas and you're seeing burnout. Like maybe you can't change the culture of the, the building, the, the caseloads, the things like that. But at some point, are you kind of ethically responsible for taking care of these people? You know, in a way, maybe not in our B.C. used to be ethics code, but like, hey, like, you know, maybe this isn't the right place for you. You know, this is. Let me help you. Let me give you the letter of rec for some. Somewhere else. I see that this is a really awful clinic for you. Can I transfer you? You know, in my ethics class right now, I just feel like that's just. Is it. It is such a big issue where all these people are so close to burnout. They're already experiencing symptoms of burnout and they have all these supervisors and administrators overseeing and not stepping in, not getting those, you know, helping with those anesthesia manipulations. Not happening. You know, I work with a clinic down the, down the way from me. I do research there. And they're constantly using like reinforcement systems and you know, Starbucks gift cards and early release Fridays for all. All sorts of different things like attendance or timeliness or data keeping or tracking. And, and their turnover rate's pretty low. You know, they're always constantly trying to find ways to keep burnout low. And, but also, you know, do you have insurance that, you know, supports mental health support? You know, are, do your, your, your supervisors know that that's available? The two, the intersection of supervision and burnout is so thick and it's. I don't, I, you know, just in my experience, you know, I teach, I've got, you know, a group of 40 students every semester to two groups, so 80 students every semester. I feel like I have a pretty decent handle on what all they're all hearing and feeling. And I do think that that bridge is, is constantly crumbling in the field right now.

[E]

I think, you know, it's important. So I keep my supervisory. Just because I'm also a faculty member like Natalie, I try to keep my own supervisory caseload pretty low. So right now I've got two graduate students shout out Meredith and Megan and I. Within the context of supervision, it's important to always be modeling and practicing those skills for burnout prevention. I don't think preventing or mitigating burnout should be like a set alone topic or a thing. So, for example, in our coursework, you know, maybe one week we're talking about schedules of reinforcement, and then two weeks later we're talking about motivating operations throughout the supervisory process. We should be modeling these skills that help us, you know, prevent our Own burnout or to help us have a. And I hate the term work life balance because that implies that things are equal. So I use the term work life equilibrium because we should recognize that there are going to be times that work demands more response outcomes allocation. At the same time there are going to be opportunities for life to have more response allocation. So we should be practicing these skills that help us demonstrate and have good work life equilibrium. For example, I try not to text or email my supervisees after working hours even though I might be working. That doesn't mean that they are working or should be expected to reply. Sort of the only time we'll text each other we have keep in touch with a group chat rather than a Microsoft Team teams or a Slack link. We don't need any more of those in our lives. But you know, we'll text each other on the weekends if we saw something, you know, dumb or funny like that helps I think build that good collaborative collegial nature. And so those are examples of that or you know, making sure that one of the recommendations is do something for yourself before you work for anybody else. That's a recommendation that we got from Cal Newport's book Deep Work. And so not being afraid to look at other sources where okay, this is somewhat behavior analytic. Let's pull this in and let's maybe borrow from this or make it more behavior analytic. So I think that's somewhat of a long winded way of saying yes, work on this with your supervisees and your trainees and work on it consistently. You know, good quality supervision is a process. It's not an outcome. It's something that we should always be working on.

[B]

I think similar to soft skills, I think a lot of the skills related to mitigating burnout steps we can take, they do feel like while we've sort of opined on like ah, I wish there were more, you know, research based intervention studies with the, with these skills. The, the idea of using bst, which does have, you know, experimental validation behind it to practice these skills, to work on these skills, kind of feels like you got a little cheat code in terms of. Even though yes, there isn't exactly the. We'd use BST for these soft skills. And then we evaluated the package of bst, you know, we know BSD will work technically it should work for teaching anything, you know, soft skills the same as anything else. I. You didn't quite mention it in the paper, but do you think some of those burnout mitigation skills, like putting yourself first, you know, the work Life. I love that equilibrium idea. Do you think that also could be useful, or does that feel like overkill? Like we're making too. Too analytic, something that's a little bit more. More about the modeling and, you know, reflecting?

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

Yes. And I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[D]

I mean, yeah, yeah. And I mean, the. The OBM research, right? There's a ton of studies about workplace, you know, safety. Right. Keeping people from hurting themselves. Right? There's a ton of. Ton of published papers, like, a lot of work on how to get people. Like, there was a. An article I used in my class about just someone who's late and, you know, helping them find closer parking or setting their alarm at a different rate. You know, like, there's a lot of empirical studies published on keeping the workplace good, happy, where you want to be, you know, so there's a lot of that out there. But are these organizations using any of those skills? Probably not. So, like, I feel like that's, like, maybe where it needs to start. Like, if you're. If you're interviewing for a job or you're working in a place and, you know this. All of this research exists, right? Like, how to keep your. Your employees happy. It's not like, you know, shocker. It's not employee of the month. That's. That's what. It's not.

[A]

We know that.

[B]

Wait, what?

[D]

Right.

[E]

Shout out Aubrey Daniel.

[D]

Yes. Thank you. Thank you for all of the beautiful researchers who have basically said that's. That's so silly and cute, but then it. Then it comes down to you. It's the. Yes, but right now, it's on you there. You do have to take some ownership of this. Like, this is going to be. And it is personal. Right? But like Michael said, you can't. You can't just teach this at the end. You can't just have this be a little endnote, right? Just like in. In our teaching, we don't teach generalization as, like, know, week 14 of a behavior change class, right? Generalization has to be from the onset of your treatment. Our kids, as we know, literally know that they won't generalize without, like, programmed support. So just even from the first day of your supervisory relationship, you should be talking about, like, are you happy where you're working? Like, where do you see yourself in one year? You know, one month, three months, you know, checking in with them and giving them those tips and strategies, you know? So again, I think we have this murky gray area here where it's very, very personal, and it has to be built but it should be built into the supervisory relationship. It should be built into our eight hour supervision training. It should be a big part of the conversation. How do we as supervisors make sure our, we are taking care of the upcoming field, the budding field. Even us as faculty, you know, we talk about it pretty regularly. Hey, and I have said to many students, I think you should quit your job. It sounds horrible. I, I, you are like, you can get a job anywhere, friend. Like, you should quit your job. And that's okay to say because that's not burnout, that's like, hey, you deserve respect. You know, that's, that's not leaving the field. So I think giving, giving permission for that is kind of important. Michael, go ahead. You had something really smart to say.

[E]

I'm sure, I'm not sure if it was really smart. You give me far too much credit than I deserve. But I was going to say, you know, with the yes and you know, yes, could we use bst? And that might be overkill to be like, okay, don't answer the email like this. That's ignoring the email. Like we don't need, you know, something like that. And so I think using modeling and feedback are probably good things. So like I mentioned, I, I live on my email even though I say I'm not going to. But you know, with my son, you know, it's like maybe I need to answer emails at 8 o' clock at night after he went down and that's when I'm going to be able to answer my email. So I use a lot of schedule send. So you know, 8:00am in the morning, you're going to get these emails instead of 9pm but as I mentioned at the beginning, you know, one of the critical key components of good quality supervision is being able to give and receive feedback. Don't be afraid to give your supervisees and trainees feedback if it's ultimately going to improve their mental health and well being. So like, hey, I see you're having a hard time with this. Here's how I think you might be able to sort of handle this a little bit better. This is going to give you a little bit more balance. I know we have some looming deadlines, but it's going to be okay. We're going to get through this. First things first, take it one at a time and then move forward with that.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

So even though you might not need it all the time, I would love to hear a little more detailed example of say a time you would use BST in teaching. Whether it's a burnout skill. Burnout mitigation skill, I should say. Or a soft skill you don't have to do. Appropriate dress. Even though that was the example you gave. And when I read that, I was like. The idea of BST appropriate dress, I feel like, like sounds like a cancelable skill to teach these days, but I would, I would kind of.

[A]

It was described really well.

[B]

No, it was. No, no, no, it was. The article didn't make it sound. I'm just thinking about like, if I were, like, here's how I think you should be dry. I just feel like that's not gonna, not gonna fly. And I sort of was thinking how. What would that look like?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

So would you mind kind of sharing?

[D]

I mean, I think appropriate dress is totally okay. I mean there's places you gotta, you know, we got kids that are doing some, some super fun things, right. We got things flying, we got things being smeared, we got, we got all, we got body parts. There are literal workplace, you know, you gotta be safe, you gotta be careful. Like you can't have stuff hanging all over the place. So I mean, just, just taking that, right? The rationale, like, hey, this is literally what you're supposed to do here. Like, this is the job. Like this is what your job place requires of you. That rationale is obviously pretty straightforward. But now in other places, like, yeah, what is professional dress, Right? When you are, let's just say a consulting BCBA in a school district and you're just going in, you're observing K, you're running some FAs, you're doing some PDs. Yeah. Like, I mean, I don't know. Yeah. In this, this day and age, like you can't really tell me what to wear. And so I'm not, I'm not dipping into that with, with those types of folks because that's your self expression, that's your culture, that's your background. Like you wear whatever you want to wear now, it's not well received. We can talk about it, you know, if somebody makes a comment to you like a person 20 ages, you know, 20 years your senior in a different culture background, as you talk about it, let's not get mad, let's not quit, let's not, you know, fight. But if we're just thinking about BST and something like that, a rationale pretty straightforward. Hey, we need to, we need to work. Wear this stuff because it's safe, because this is what, you know, is required. The steps we'll go through the, you know, the employee handbook. We'll model, look what I'm wearing, look what she's wearing, look what that woman's wearing, look what he's wearing, look what they're wearing. You know, and then some role play. Obviously we're not going into their closet, you know, that role play piece.

[A]

No fashion show.

[E]

I mean no fashion show.

[B]

I want a supervision montage. The outfits were changing into quickly.

[D]

I would love a get ready with me like series with my supervisee in their closet. Like you know, on zoom actually. I mean that would be cool. It is also possible to be like, hey Google, like let's show me some pictures of people going to work. Like and we can just talk about like hey, that's, you know, that's good, that's bad. And here's why, you know, and then just general feedback, right? Like hey, I really like your outfit today. It looks really safe. Like it looks like it's comfortable for you. How do you feel? It's weird. It is weird. But you know, I have undergrads coming into a school with kids with very, very, very significant challenging behavior and they are truly at risk every time they come in even though we protect them with furniture. And you know, I've got, you know, I have to have these conversations and, and you know, my male colleague shout out Dr. Perez has to give that feedback to these like 20 year old women and it's very uncomfortable but he's their supervisor and it's like, like hey, so I need to not be able to see your stomach in this setting because of these rule, you know, it's uncomfortable but you know it's uncomfortable for them. It feels really weird and icky, but it just has to be done. And then once it's done it's usually like not a, not a huge deal. So BST with these soft skills. The role play piece is kind of weird, right? Like Michael's saying like send me an email, let's practice and now I'll send you an email and let's see how you respond. You know, like that is the role played part of BST is like awkward. And you know there have been a little bit of like some people have dipped into some component analysis of bst. Like could we pull the role play? Is it still effective? It is, it's still effective without those pieces, right? Like if you're teaching your mom who got a new iPhone, first of all, I'm so sorry. Good for you. If you're 75 year old mom got a new iPhone, teaching her how to, you know, check her email. But you're not likely role playing with your mom, right? You're doing like, okay, this is where it is.

[C]

You're just iPhone mom, right?

[D]

Here are the steps. Let's practice. And now here, you know, so role play can. Can be easily ditched when you're doing some weird stuff like that. And I think that's.

[B]

Yeah, I think I saved the role plays for. It's gonna. It sounds like you're gonna have to have an uncomfortable conversation with client, with stakeholder, with your boss. I. Let's role play that, because if we don't, it's gonna sound great now. And the second you walk out the door, it's gonna be terrifying. So let's talk. Let's talk. Talk that through.

[E]

I. Yeah, I think that's a great example of a soft skill where. And also with soft skills, too. You know, one of the things Natalie and I try to stress is we can maybe, maybe attack that a little bit better, which makes it feel a little more substantial. So, you know, we like to use the term behavior analytic professionalism. And then I'm not trying to open the can of worms of, well, who gets to define what professionalism is? I'm not trying to do that. We're simply talking about this set of behaviors that we can all agree is important to having, you know, good therapeutic alliance and relationship with our clients and other stakeholders. But I actually use the example of, you know, appropriate dress for a setting as a fun way to augment with bst. And so rather than doing it whole, no need to role play, like, here's how I, you know, tie a tie. If I'm going to a conference, it's like, okay, you're going to be working in this setting with this certain population. Here is an array of clothing options. Can you select which ones or which one you think is the most appropriate? That's going to ensure, you know, your safety, client safety, comfortability, broadly defined. And so we can get creative with BST if that's something that we want to use in that specific setting. You know, BST works for everything. I think we all know that. But if we consider BST or training hammer. Sometimes when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. So, like, yes, and we can use BST for certain things, but maybe we can have to get creative for those other areas of behavior analytics, professionalism.

[B]

I had a whole training I put together once for I work in school, so for teachers on classroom management. And everything I wrote, I was like.

[D]

We'Re going to do bst.

[B]

It's going to be the best training. Everyone is going to be so excited. And I don't know if it's just the teachers, certain teachers in Massachusetts, or if it's every teacher. The second we got to let's role play this. The feedback I got was I am absolutely not getting up and practicing this skill. That is embarrassing. And you are now condescending. And they were very polite about it. Like they gave me great feedback, but the sense I got was like, like you were a jerk that you even thought this was going to be a part of the class. So I had to very quickly pivot. It was like a weak class too. And I was like, I'm going to eat up so much time with all this prep. No one's going to practice. And I had to take that vehicle, realize, you know what, as much as I think they're wrong and BSD is the best every time and just do every step. You know what, I got to think about that. And maybe we won't. We'll just let them maybe practice with each other or talk to each other about what it might look like and then share their thoughts with me and then maybe I'll skip the feedback on that one because I don't know if they want to. So yeah, I hear you there, Michael. BST is awesome, but we can't just slavishly use it unless we want to get in some hot water maybe.

[E]

And we know too, like it's one of the best things that we can use to ensure competence of those demonstrable skills, you know, especially if you've got, you know, a two or three hour professional development with teachers, you want them to get the biggest learning bang for their training or teaching buck. So of course, you know, dub bst, that might be where we're going to go. Like if you can learn two or three behavior management skills, like job done, like praise be, you're doing the Lord's work like everything is fine and dandy. But if that group of consumers doesn't want to role play well, you're probably not going to get buy in in anything they're going to teach them. Same thing goes when we work in classrooms, inner teaching and guided notes. Students don't really love inner teaching and students kind of hate SAF meds, for example. So that's why I always kind of grimace when I hear teachers are like, I'm going to use SAF meds and I demand that you use SAP meds. It's like, God, students are telling us they hate SAP meds. So please, like, stop giving them saf meds until the cows come home. Like, there's no need for that.

[D]

Oh, I apologize for all of my students who are in the future listening to this because I absolutely require staff. But, you know, in your, in your student reviews, like, you get like 50% saying, this is the worst thing I've ever done. And then 50% are like, oh, my God, thank you so much for making me do those. Now I have this study, you know, tool for the. Yeah, so it, it is hit or miss. You know, it's, it really is. And you know, I, I, you know, Rob, I too, I've worked with teachers. You know, I'm, I'm a special ed teacher. And. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Roleplay is like a forbidden word, you know, in those, in those settings. But gosh, man, it's. Sometimes you just have to see them do it. So we do. I, you know, in some of my classes, I just push them. I, I am like, you gotta. And so, you know, the way I get around that with some of my students in my university class is like, all right, cool, well, go home, find somebody to role play with. I don't care. Someone, your kid, record it and send it to me. So maybe you don't want to do it in class. You want to do it in front of all these people. But I do need to see that you're proficient at delivering a preference assessment. I just need to, I just need to see that you can take away the item and then rearrange and then re. Present and, you know, and, and they, and they get that and they're, and they're open to it. And in some cases, you know, that that is an option is like, send your supervisee home. Send your trainees home to do it on their own, in their own time, make it fun. My students will dress up and they'll have funny costumes and like, really take the role of like the bitchy parent with their glass of wine. And what are you telling me? My kid is improving? You know, it's cute how they do it, you know, when they have a little bit more freedom on their own time. So that's always an option.

[B]

I like that. So. And I think since that kind of brings us back to some of the topics we were discussing as we started. You know, that context and how hard it can be sometimes to say it's always this way. And research says because there's so many contexts that you don't know until you're doing a lot of the work, it seems like probably A good place for us to move into our dissemination station. Oh boy. So, you know, we have talked about a lot of really amazing topics. It's been a lot of fun, you know, hearing from both of you about, you know, what we know about supervision. This definitely works. This might work. We need more research. This is a great idea. If it works for you, go for it. But it's probably not going to be gold standard because there's no way to make it a gold standard because there's too many contextual variables. So looking ahead into just our field in terms of our work as supervisors, our research on supervision, what are you hoping to see in, you know, up to five years, you know, one year, two year, however long you want to go ahead. Like what do you want to see going forward in publications? Where do you want to see supervision, intervention? Kind of going specifically for our field.

[E]

For fooling into the dissemination station. We should recognize that, you know, other forms of dissemination, you know, this comment applies to them too, and especially for presentations. More data, less talk, more action. So I would love to see, you know, more empirical evaluations of what's working in supervision practices. Can we get some, you know, programmatic evaluation? So you know, for example, I think about all of the universities out there that have, you know, verified core sequences or they are accredited. Like can we have some nice case demonstrations of. Here is what we do in our program, here are some of our outcome data. Here's some empirical data behind how good our trainees and supervisees are doing. That's something that I would love to see. And then when I think about again, similarly with the presentations, most supervision presentations that I see at conferences nowadays are very motivational and very inspirational, but they are lacking in data. Data should not and are not boring. It doesn't. If I'm saying I need to see more data, I'm not saying I want to see a boring presentation. We're saying that there's room for both of those topics to be, or both of those aspects to be related to and informed by this topic of supervision. So less talk, more action, less talk, more data.

[D]

Yeah, and I, if I had a, if I had a topic that I'd like to see delved into more is just, just generally more. More from the supervisees perspective. Right? So again I'm reading, I'm reviewing articles for, for potential publication and I'm reading about, well, the supervisees, they gave us this feedback so we made this change and it, you know, it was great. I'm like, oh my God, look at you guys like, you know, taking the supervisees perspective. I'm not saying a survey, please, let's not survey our supervisees more and more and more. But just when they, when we have people that are doing these research articles and doing these empirical validations, like a quick social validity thing at the end, like a 5 point Likert scale across 10 questions is not going to cut it. I want to know, did they like it? Did they not? Why can we tweak and adjust and some of those just, just the discussion portions of these papers, that's what's going to fuel our field. Like, hey, this really, this was good. We had good data and here it is. But this was the feedback from our, from our supervisees and how we can move forward. And I will also just like hang my advice on what Michael just said. All of us in university, we're all getting accredited. We're all going through it right now. We all have changes that we're making over the next eight years to keep our accreditation. We need to be working together. I tried to do a study where we looked at BCBA programs across the United States and how we're preparing. Oh man, that study fell apart real quick. We had 10% of groups even responding to us and then even less that were willing to share some by with us. So it'd be great. Like we're all doing the good stuff. We're all doing the good work. It'd be cool if we could all kind of come together for this faculty and from these universities and you know, give you, you know, core sequence spaces and just like, let's work together. You know, we, we have some cool stuff that we're doing. Let's see, like what's working.

[E]

Yeah, supervision is what's going to move the field forward. And so I think making sure that we, we continue to push this importance on it. You know, I think everybody out there wants to be the best supervisor that they can be. So if it's just everyone, keep up the good work and just recognize that we have a long, long way to.

[C]

Keep going and that it's supervision for everyone. Not just supervision for the BACB candidates or the RBT candidates. Because that really grinds my gears, right? Because there are people doing work in our field that may never be an RBT or may, maybe or may never become a bcba. And if you're not supervising them, you're doing a big discredit to our field. And that really.

[D]

Jackie, are you opening up a can of worms? Would you like to. We can, we can talk about that we could talk about that for another couple hours. Part two.

[C]

Right, I know, part two, but I. You had mentioned it earlier, it's like supervising everyone.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

In my dissemination station, when you're a supervisor and you're supervising people, you need to include every single person that you. That you see that's working with the clients, not just the ones that you're writing down in their fieldwork tracker, Excel spreadsheet.

[D]

Agree. Thanks, Jackie.

[A]

Well, I'll add my.

[B]

Oh, no, add your two cents.

[A]

My two cents here is I think that we as supervisors, especially those of us who have been in the field a long time at this point, we have to continue to grow and evolve as well, and thinking about what supervision looks like for our current trainees in that the world keeps changing, they are different than we were. Right. And some of the aspects of the way in which we came up through the field and took the BCBA exam, even though we want to be like.

[D]

Well, this is how it was when.

[A]

I had to do it, doesn't mean that that was the best situation.

[D]

Right.

[A]

Like, we were also super duper stressed out and maybe didn't get as much clear, you know, direction as we want it to. That doesn't mean that we now then need to turn around and make things hard for our trainees. Right. So as much as we can continue to develop these types of tools and think about how we can really best accommodate for our students and their differences and think about how we want to help them become the best BCBAs that they can be, that's the direction we should be going. So I think that, that if you were an old timer like myself, that might be a good reminder.

[E]

You mean just because we had to wait upwards of two to three months for our BCBA exam results, you know, others don't have to wait for that nowadays.

[A]

Right.

[D]

Those are the good old days.

[C]

Yeah, those were the good old days. I just want everyone to know that when I took my bcba, had to drive like an hour and a half to a city to take it. And then I was so stressed out because, again, I wouldn't know for three months that I crossed the threshold and passed out into a puddle and some man had to buy me some orange juice sitting in a puddle of Austin, Right. Because I didn't live there. So I'm sitting in a puddle all wet right outside of the Pearson headquarters where I took my BACB exam. Unlike a fake computer. Fake like a weird, like, it was like what was like fill in the blank at that. And because I'm old. And I just sat in the puddle and I was like, well, I hope this doesn't mean I passed, that I didn't pass. So there you go.

[D]

Good old days.

[C]

Yeah, Good old days of passing out in puddles.

[D]

Love it. I love that freaking.

[A]

Well, you passed two.

[D]

Two ways that day.

[B]

Whoa. Well, I'm a little disappointed that it sounds like I got to go back to the drawing board with my, like, motivational discussion think piece on how to use my special TA I wrote for filling out a planner. I got take that back to the drawing board. It's not going to get accepted.

[C]

I love my planner, though. I do love my planner.

[B]

But everything else we talked about was super illuminating, very, very interesting and a lot of fun. So Dr. Natalie Anzik and Dr. Mike Krennic, thank you so much for coming on the show today and sharing what we know about supervision, which is some, but not as much as maybe we thought we knew or wanted to know. And there's still more to learn, which is good. I think it's better to know you don't know everything. Right. If folks want to hear more about either the research that you're, you know, currently publishing on supervision or any of the other areas that you publish on, is there a great way they could reach out to you?

[E]

They are more than welcome to email me K R a N a K at Oakland Edu. Or they could check, you know, just like. And subscribe. You know, you follow me on Research Gate, LinkedIn. I'll post articles there and there. My students have recently made a Instagram for. For the cat lab. So follow the cat lab on Instagram if y' all are so hip hop with those things.

[A]

Cool.

[D]

Yeah. I'm going to say Kat. Yeah.

[A]

Is that right, Kat?

[E]

Yes. A cranic applied and translational lab. So cat underscore lab, I think, or ou something. Something to that effect. Y' all will get it.

[C]

Very cute.

[D]

Yes. I prefer carrier pigeon. Message in a bottle via Pacific Ocean, you know, and if either of those are not currently in your repertoire, email N N Z A N D Z I K at N I U edu. That's Northern Illinois University. That's the best way. I'm never leaving. I'm gonna be here forever and ever for the rest of my life. So you'll always be able to find me on that email. I feel you.

[A]

I feel you.

[E]

We're in our body bag jobs.

[C]

Yep. I am, too.

[A]

Yeah, I love that.

[B]

We want to give one more big thanks to Dr. Michael Kranik and Dr. Natalie Anzik for being on the show. We had a lot of fun talking about supervision. I think their style of sharing their research was one that we just had a blast. And we hope you had a blast listening to them discuss all of the work they've been doing in this area. So thanks to them again. But we've got one more section of the show before we wrap things up and that is pairings. Diana, take it away.

[A]

Sure thing. Pairings is a part of the show where I tell you about past episodes. You might want to check out if you liked this one here today I'm just going to highlight for everyone the many, many episodes that we have had during Supervision September because I think I went back. I think we've been doing this since 2018. So maybe not the very first year, but after that we.

[B]

It all starts to blend together.

[A]

Yeah, something like that. So you could go back and check out episodes 38, 39 and 40. 63, 64 and 65. One of those was with Dr. Jamie Hughes. Lika. 97, 98 and 99. One of those was with Dr.— Amy Henley. 100. I'm doing bad here. 140 and 141 which is where we discuss bringing out the best in people.

[D]

142.

[A]

177 and 178 which is where we discuss crucial conversations. 179 and then 252 and 253. That one was with Kim Held. 277, 278 and even more. Those are just the ones that were during supervision. But there's also like errant supervision episodes that pop up every now and again that weren't part of that series. And then I also just want to highlight a couple that came up in the conversation today topically. But we're not supervision episodes. But you could also circle back and check out episode 199 which was self care and modern day burnout with Dr. Julie Sloviak. And you could also check out episode 221 which is where Ryan Atkinson joined us to talk about one of those supervision articles. It was actually about intervention. Intervention article and how to teach fieldwork requirements to supervisees. I think that's. That's correct.

[B]

If you can't remember all those numbers, you can also go to the website abainsidetrack.com and go to previous episodes. You go to the section that says supervision and it lists all of our supervision episodes that we've ever, ever done. So all those are in one nice little Box.

[A]

Correct. Oh, yeah. We also like to recommend a snack during our pairing section to enjoy. The snack today is lasagna and garlic bread. Because in Jackie is my discussion before we started recording this episode, we both pre prepped the same meal to eat for dinner after this episode. And that's what the meal is. So maybe you are having that too at home.

[B]

I remember when you first pitched this section, it was a thematically appropriate.

[A]

I don't know, I couldn't think of anything.

[B]

I feel like it's turned into. And by the way, the following is served for dinner.

[A]

Sometimes I do. Sometimes it's really.

[B]

I like a theme. I like. I like themed food. I'm a big fan of themed food.

[A]

Fine, then hers is a veggie lasagna and mine has turkey in it. And you can put a lot of different things into the lasagna. Might involve some different sort of, you know, personalities, different components, but when you cook it all together, it ends up being really satisfying for everyone involved. And that's how the supervision process should go. Okay, so there.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you very much. Diana, you wouldn't say please enjoy though.

[A]

That was pairings. Please enjoy.

[B]

There it is. All right, well, thanks everyone, so very much for listening. Thanks again to our special guest, Dr. Cranick. Dr. Anzik. If you liked ABA Inside Track, we'd appreciate it if you left us a review. If you didn't like it, feel free to leave a review as well. You can leave that wherever you subscribe, podcasts or whatever your podcast player of choice may be. You can find us [e-mail] where you can find links to all of the articles we discussed as well as all of our previous episodes on supervision. You can get even more ABA Inside Track content on patreon.com abainsidetrack where you can subscribe at any level. You can subscribe at the $5 and up level to get access to all of our listener choice and listener choice episodes for free CE just for being a member to also get to vote in all of the polls we do on the books we read and our listener choice topics. We have one that's out, should be out right now or maybe just closed so we'll have another one in a few a few months where you, the listener gets to pick the topic. And if you want to subscribe at the $10 and up level, you get access to all of our book clubs for and the two CES that come with listening to those for no additional charge. So if you're saying, you know what? I want to listen to some of those old supervision book discussions. Well that might be a good time to sign up so you can get all of those episodes as well as our newer book clubs for no additional no additional charge to get those CES. And you've also got Oops. By Aubrey Daniels 13 supervisory mistakes that we will be doing for this September's book club. And while everyone gets that book club, usually we lock the new book clubs up supervision. We don't. But you still get those two supervision CEs for no additional charge if you are a patron of ours. So we want to say thanks. That's patreon.com Aba InsideTrack and of course you can always email us abainsidetrackmail.com Some final thanks are to Dr. Jim Carr for recording our intro and outro music, Kyle Stewie for interstitial music, and Dan Thabot of the podcast Doctors for his amazing editing work. And before we go, you might want your last secret code word. I put it here so you have to listen to all the fun plugs. And thanks. You can't skip through those if you want your code words. And the last code word we have again from our special guest, Labrador. L A B R A D O R. It is a type of dog, a Labrador. That's all I got to say about that one. We'll be back next week with I think kind of the wrap up of our supervision September, which means it'll be a fun filled episode. But until then, keep responding. Bye bye.