ABA Inside Track – Episode 327: Instructional Design for Business w/ Dr. Doug Johnson

Date: November 19, 2025
Guest: Dr. Doug Johnson

Episode Overview

In this episode, the ABA Inside Track team is joined by Dr. Doug Johnson to delve into the topic of instructional design for business—how behavior analytic principles and history inform the creation of meaningful, effective training programs in organizational settings. Dr. Johnson shares his journey from aspiring comic book artist to OBM (Organizational Behavior Management) expert, and details best practices, historical lessons, and actionable recommendations for building impactful workplace learning.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Dr. Doug Johnson’s Journey to OBM and Instructional Design

• Transition from Comic Art to Psychology
  Dr. Johnson recounts initially wanting to become a comic book artist. After realizing it wasn’t a fit, he worked various jobs he disliked, leading him to psychology to “understand people better.”

  "My first career choice was to be a comic book artist. And I didn't have the skill set to do it... I eventually decided I should go to school because I'm like, I don’t like working, flipping burgers..." (03:23)

• From Rat Labs to Workplace Frustration
  He notes the sharp contrast between precise, compassionate treatment of lab rats in his university training and the haphazard, imprecise training methods he observed in the workplace.

  "...we treated the rats better than we treated the employees... to train employees, we'd say, you know, just watch this video or just kind of follow that person around..." (05:02)

• Discovery of OBM
  Finding Aubrey Daniels’ book Bringing Out the Best in People inspired his path into OBM and instructional design.

Instructional Design: History & Foundations

• Skinner’s Origins of Programmed Instruction
  Dr. Johnson describes how B.F. Skinner’s frustration with classroom teaching at his daughter’s school spurred the development of automated, behaviorally designed instructional systems.

  "He went to an elementary school classroom and saw his daughter and other students being really, from his view, miseducated... he didn’t blame the teacher... But you got to do the research, you got to do the hard work up front." (09:09)

• Susan Markle’s Legacy
  Johnson elevates Susan Markle as an “unsung hero” in instructional design, advancing Skinner’s vision into broader educational practice, and later, applications in business settings.

  "Susan Markle was one of our field's unsung heroes... people should be understanding and looking into." (09:09)

Why Business Took the Lead (& Why Education Lags)

• Immediate Feedback and Stakes
  Businesses are more likely to adopt instructional innovations when poor training impacts their bottom line, while schools are hampered by bureaucracy, philosophical resistance to behaviorism, and frequent disappointments with new tech fads (radio, TV, laserdisc, computers, etc.).

  "I think part of it is the clear connection to profit or loss that is present in the business world that's not so present in the educational world." (14:58)

• Technology: Tool, Not Solution
  Teaching machines and, much later, computers failed to revolutionize education mainly because they were “tech-forward, learner-backwards,” ignoring the need for well-designed, learner-centered instruction.

  "None of the technologies were ever designed with people in mind. They were always tech forward, learner backwards. And so that's why they didn't make the change..." (16:12)

The Principles of Behavior-Based Instructional Design

• Moving Beyond Behavior Skills Training (BST)
  While BST is helpful, Johnson stresses it overlooks many dimensions—such as stimulus control, generative repertoires, and emotional responses—that are crucial for training employees in complex, flexible skill sets.

• Susan Markle & Philip Tieman’s Categories
  Effective training involves:

  • Defining the behavior (can it occur?)
  • Teaching performance (single steps, chains, or mixed tasks)
  • Building discrimination (SDs and SΔs)
  • Teaching generalization and concept formation
  • Promoting generative, flexible responding
  • Attending to emotional/affective learning (ensuring the training context is approachable and not aversive)

  "It says a lot about how do you want to assess your training and how do you want to progress with your training… those are upfront questions to figure out.” (25:00)

• Design Steps Before “Design”

  • Consult with subject-matter experts.
  • Identify the “gap” between a novice and an expert performer.
  • Decide when to stop (accuracy is not enough; fluency matters).
  • Vary praise and feedback; monitor trainer and trainee emotions.
  • Train trainers how to train—rarely addressed even in teaching degrees or in business.

  "...nobody ever trains people on how to train... Even if you go to college of education, they don't train you on how to teach..." (32:54)

Common Training Pitfalls and Solutions

• The Problem with “Expert” Trainers
  Experts may be the worst trainers, as they forget what it's like not to know and are impatient with learners’ struggles.

  "Experts are often your worst trainers... when somebody's an expert, they forget what it was like to learn it." (40:13)

• Emotional Management & Frustration
  When trainees are frustrated, don’t respond with just breaks—“the antidote for frustration is success.” Take a step back, scaffold with easier tasks, and rebuild confidence.

  "Let's go back a few steps to where they were successful... what I'm thinking is... behavioral momentum and errorless learning." (36:28)

Technology & Multimedia Principles in Training

• Why Computers Alone Can’t Fix Training
  Computer-based training often fails due to poor design—too many distractions, confusing navigation, lack of social presence, and failure to apply multimedia learning principles.

  "Computer designers, computer programmers, once again don't know anything about human behavior..." (42:45)

• Key Multimedia Principles (46:20)

  • Coherence: Only include directly relevant material.
  • Redundancy: Avoid simultaneous narration and text—people read faster than narration, making it jarring.
  • Spatial/Temporal Contiguity: Place text and visuals close together and present them simultaneously.
  • Social Presence: The more socially interactive the program feels, the better the learning (avoid stiff, computer-generated voices or avatars).

  "If you're designing training, it would be well worth even just a superficial read of that stuff could advance your training practices." (49:37)

The Gold Standard and Good Enough

• Headsprout as Gold Standard
  Headsprout (a now defunct reading program) was cited as an exemplar, leveraging programmatic, iterative development, plenty of feedback and data, and behavioral principles.

  "They went through all the development steps... the antecedents were great, the consequences were great, and it worked perfectly..." (51:28)

• Don’t Let Perfect Be the Enemy of Good
  Don’t go for gold standard in every context. Incremental improvements—better objectives, more active responding, clearer feedback—matter.

Practical Recommendations & Where to Start

• Two Fundamental Improvements for Trainers (54:58–57:53)
  1. Smaller Step Sizes: Deliver information in manageable chunks (“about 7 new items” at a time).
  2. Frequent Assessment: Use “teach-back” (ask trainees to explain or perform what was taught).

     "Small chunks frequent assessment... Even if they don't learn a single other practice that's going to make them start changing things up and trying new things and probably getting a little bit fatter." (57:53)

Barriers to Excellent Training in Business

• Not enough OBM practitioners to meet demand.

• Managers and trainers aren’t exposed to these principles in their education.

  "In my MBA, they never really talked about how you manage people... when it came to people, they really never addressed that." (60:02)

• Widespread cultural beliefs that “people can’t really change” or “some are just untrainable.”

Advancing Your OBM Instructional Design Practice

• Suggested Resources:
  • Bringing Out the Best in People (Aubrey Daniels)
  • Performance-Based Instruction (Dale Brethower & Carol Smalley)
  • OBM Network (professional association)
• Contact: Dr. Johnson can be reached at behavioranalyst@gmail.com

  "I probably have the easiest email to remember because my email... behavioranalyst@gmail.com. I'm the one who got that first." (64:07)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the Realities of Business vs. Education Training
  "[In business] if planes start crashing, everyone starts canceling their trips and then you make no money." (18:14)

• On the Futility of Poorly Designed Computer Training
  "I ask them, did you pay attention? ...the vast majority say no. I powered through it, but I got 100% correct according to it, right?" (44:58)

• On Trainer Frustration
  "The antidote for frustration is success... behavioral momentum and errorless learning." (36:28)

• On the “Status Quo” for Trainers
  "If I'm feeling a snarky, I might say something like... if the student didn't learn, the teacher didn't teach." (57:31)

Recommended Listening & Resources

See episodes:

• Ep. 221: Tracker Training with Ryan Atkinson
• Ep. 230: Precision Teaching with Jared Van
• Ep. 239: Behavioral Instruction with Kendra Guinness
• Ep. 257: Key Features of Direct Instruction
• Ep. 218: ABA and Literacy Skills with Denise Ross Page and Doug Greer
• Ep. 129: Staff Turnover with Byron Wine
• Ep. 140, 141: Aubrey Daniels Book Clubs

And books:

• Aubrey Daniels – Bringing Out the Best in People
• Dale Brethower & Carol Smalley – Performance-Based Instruction

Summary Table of Key Training Principles

| Principle | Explanation/Example | |-----------------------------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | Small Step Size | Break content into manageable chunks (about 7 items at a time) | | Frequent Assessment | Use teach-back; confirm understanding often | | Constructive Feedback | Vary feedback, monitor for genuine engagement | | Emotional Support | End on successes, manage frustration, create a supportive setting | | Multimedia Coherence | Only include relevant content; avoid distracting flourishes | | Avoid Redundancy | Don’t simultaneous narrate and display text; keep it clear and focused | | Social Presence | Make even computer-based training feel as social/human as possible | | Generalization, Generativity | Design for real-world transfer—not just rote skills | | Trainer Training | Invest in teaching trainers how to train and adapt dynamically |

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:23] Dr. Johnson’s professional journey
• [09:09] Skinner, Markle, and the foundations of instructional design
• [14:58] Why business leads in applying instructional design
• [22:38] Introduction to behavior-based instructional design categories
• [32:54] What makes a good training (beyond BST)
• [36:28] Managing trainee frustration; importance of errorless teaching
• [42:45] Why most computer-based training fails
• [46:20] Key multimedia design principles for training
• [51:22] The Headsprout example—gold standard
• [54:58] Two most important ways to improve training quickly
• [60:02] Why the gap exists—education and OBM

Final Thoughts

• A rich literature already exists on building better business training—behavior analysts and OBMers just need more awareness and presence in corporate settings.
• Even incremental improvements (smaller steps, teach-back assessments) can significantly enhance organizational learning.
• The path forward is spreading the word, training more OBMers, and continuously applying the robust science of human behavior to workplace learning.

Contact Dr. Johnson for further questions or consulting: behavioranalyst@gmail.com