Episode 330 - Culturally Responsive Leadership Practices w. Denisha Gingles

Summary

ABA Inside Track Episode 330:

Culturally Responsive Leadership Practices with Denisha Gingles

Release Date: December 17, 2025

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Overview

This episode of ABA Inside Track centers on the vital topic of culturally responsive leadership practices in behavior analysis and related fields. The returning guest, Denisha Gingles—founder of Sankofa Behavioral Health and president of BABA (Black Association of Behavior Analysts)—delves into her personal and professional journey, the importance of liberation and anti-oppressive frameworks, and practical, actionable ways for behavior analysts to enact culturally responsive, justice-centered leadership. The conversation draws from multiple disciplines, referencing key articles from counseling, medicine, and leadership theory, with a special emphasis on the Ubuntu leadership model.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Denisha’s Journey and Roles (03:35–05:18)

• Background: Denisha is in a “season of alignment,” focusing on systems and habits that propel herself and her community toward liberation rather than mere inclusion.
• Current Roles:
  • Doctoral student, Industrial-Organizational Psychology—concentrating on social justice
  • Clinical and operational leader at Sankofa Behavioral Health in Baltimore, MD
  • President of BABA (Black Association of Behavior Analysts)
• Quote:

  "I've been really pushing myself to build systems and stack habits that protect myself, my community, Black people, Black professionals—that actually leads to liberation instead of just including us and being everywhere." (04:04, Denisha)

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2. Research Base and Interdisciplinary Approach (06:23–08:43)

• Articles Referenced:
  • Anti-oppression in counselor education, cultural responsiveness in behavior analysis curriculum, mentoring for minoritized professionals in medicine, and the Ubuntu leadership model.
• Interdisciplinarity:
  The panel emphasized learning from allied fields—counseling, medicine, IO psychology—citing these disciplines’ progress on topics ABA is still struggling with.
• Quote:

  "We should be drawing from other fields... you don't always have to recreate every everything, every idea. Other folks have come before and done really good jobs of that." (08:32, Diana)

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3. Guest Editorship & Social Justice in Behavior Analysis Publishing (10:04–15:43)

Denisha recounted her leadership of an emergency special issue on police brutality and systemic racism for the journal Behavior Analysis in Practice:

• Context: Prompted by the George Floyd and Breonna Taylor uprisings.
• Editorial Board: 90% Black and Brown members, all from marginalized communities.
• Intent: Avoid performativity. Make research genuinely useful to organizers and those in the movement.
• Sustainable Impact: The issue catalyzed further leadership among guest editors and authors in the field.
• Quote:

  "I was very clear... who says it and who tells the story also matters. Right. And so our editorial board was 90% Black and Brown. And every person that was on the editorial board was from at least one marginalized community." (11:22, Denisha)

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4. Mentorship vs. Leadership: Definitions and Realities (16:41–21:31)

• Mentorship:
  Seen as didactic, often hierarchical, and traditionally one-directional. Denisha critiques Western models as extractive and rooted in capitalism, leading to burnout among marginalized mentors.
• Leadership:
  A social, systemic, and context-building process—about arranging contingencies so others contribute toward collective goals; relationships are central, not hierarchy.
• Critical Reflection:

  "Leadership only exists in relationship to others." (21:31, Denisha)

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5. Culturally Responsive Leadership: Beyond the Checklist (22:17–28:05)

• From the Literature:
  Mather and Rodriguez (2022) offer measurable behaviors for clinicians striving for cultural responsiveness, but true leadership means moving past skills-checklists and embracing ongoing value-based reflection and systemic challenge.
• Performative vs. Substantive Action:
  Cultural competency is not a “badge” but a process demanding active confrontation of privilege and persistent systemic changes.
• Quote:

  "Cultural responsiveness definitely can't be looked at as just like a checkbox... it's actually about the behavior that's there... it's an ongoing process, and there is no destination." (26:26, Denisha)

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6. Academic vs. Social Leadership (28:41–30:24)

• Academic Leadership:
  Focused on metrics, performance, and tangible outputs (publications, tenure).
• Social Learning Leadership:
  Prioritizes collective growth, genuine feeling of belonging, and reflection—not just performance.

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7. Anti-Oppressive Practice & Ethics/Task List Gaps (31:54–33:14)

• Mentions:
  The Sheik Gumaluru article offers actionable anti-oppressive steps, but implementation gaps in behavior analysis ethics code and task list persist.
• Ethics as Baseline:
  Denisha urges professionals to view BACB ethics as a starting point—merely compliance-driven and not enough to promote justice.
• Quote:

  “We’ve always needed to expand our ethics code... we have way more work to do if we ever want that to be what it can do." (33:14, Denisha)

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8. Realities of DEI and “One-Off” Solutions (34:54–36:29)

• Panel Discussion:
  The BACB’s rollback of cultural responsiveness is lamented as shortsighted. A single box-check or line in policy is insufficient; true cultural responsiveness must be woven into the fabric of education and policy, not tacked on.

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9. Empathy & Power Redistribution: The Hardest Skills (37:24–43:38)

• Critical Leadership Skills:
  Empathy—beyond surface-level “skills”—and daily, observable redistribution of power define meaningful leadership.
• Challenges in Training:
  These are among the most challenging aspects to operationalize and teach, sometimes requiring “exhaustive lists” of examples and non-examples in policy due to widespread procedural literalism.
• Quote:

  "What does it look like to actually show empathy to our communities?... The redistribution of power is just like a really important... there needs to be ways that we teach people how to actually redistribute power and what that looks like on a day to day basis." (38:14, Denisha)

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10. Ubuntu Leadership: Principles & Practice (47:17–63:12)

• Core Concept:
  Ubuntu is built on collectivism, interdependence, empathy, reciprocity, dignity, and communal power ("I am because we are").
• Application:
  Ubuntu leadership rejects the “heroic lone leader,” emphasizing shared voices and the relational fabric of teams and communities.
• Universality:
  Ubuntu principles are universal, not limited to one cultural group, and transferable across disciplines and settings, including ABA.
• Culturally Responsive Parallels:
  Ubuntu naturally embodies the very practices needed for cultural responsiveness and anti-oppression work in ABA.
• Quote:

  “No matter where you go, you're creating a new culture. What you're bringing and what they're bringing now we've created something new. That's what it looks like to also have that collective mindset versus like the hierarchical. Somebody merges to my culture. Right? Like, no, we're creating a new one together." (57:27, Denisha)

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11. Barriers to Ubuntu–Style Leadership (60:26–63:12)

• Not “Easy” or Quick:
  Ubuntu requires a willingness to be uncomfortable, to slow down, and to prioritize community and accountability even in times of conflict—qualities that oppose Western industrial speed and efficiency.
• Practical Challenge:
  Many revert to transactional, punitive models under stress. Ubuntu encourages “sitting in discomfort” and creating new consensus, which can be at odds with U.S. professional culture.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “My work's just been kind of focused on sustainability and yeah, trying to thrive, not just survive, and also having a good time because I am a full human being. I'm still young, got my legs, you know, go outside, have a good time and frolic.”
  (04:50, Denisha)

• “If you just think about leadership as just like a straight line, someone sits up here and we don't remember that a person as a person is a person through other people ... things start to fall by the wayside.”
  (21:31, Denisha)

• "It actually needed to be a moment that expanded what we thought of as scholarly, that actually represented the movement... who says it and who tells the story also matters."
  (11:12, Denisha)

• "Leadership is more of a social process ... we then utilize different motivated operations to enable other people to contribute towards a collective goal or a mission."
  (19:43, Denisha)

• “Empathy is a starting point ... what does it look like to actually show empathy to our communities?... [And] redistribution of power is just like a really important [skill].”
  (37:24, Denisha)

• "Ubuntu is not an easy way of being. When we start having moments of conflict... it's very easy as human beings to want to cling to what we've always known ... it requires a deep sitting inside of these ideals and values."
  (60:26, Denisha)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------------|-------------------| | Denisha’s Updates and Life Philosophy | 03:35–05:18 | | Overview of Guest Editorship & Social Justice | 10:04–15:43 | | Definitions: Mentorship vs. Leadership | 16:41–21:31 | | Culturally Responsive Leadership Frameworks | 22:17–28:05 | | Academic vs. Social Learning Leadership | 28:41–30:24 | | Ethics Code and Anti-Oppressive Practice Gaps | 31:54–33:14 | | Empathy & Redistribution of Power | 37:24–43:38 | | Ubuntu Leadership Principles and Practice | 47:17–63:12 | | Research Priorities in Leadership | 63:45–67:31 | | Daily Practice Tips for Leaders | 67:47–69:05 |

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Actionable Takeaways & Reflections

For Leaders and Practitioners:

• Move beyond compliance: Treat the BACB ethics code as a minimal standard; justice requires reflection, policy change, and personal accountability.
• Operationalize Empathy and Power Transfer: Daily, observable actions that show support and redistribute opportunities/power are essential.
• Prioritize Relationship and Community: Leadership is relational—eschew hierarchical, extractive models in favor of interdependence and mutual growth.
• Bake Inclusion In: Don’t rely on “one-off” workshops—infuse cultural responsiveness into every policy, curriculum, and practice.
• Ubuntu as a North Star: Use Ubuntu principles—empathy, collectivism, shared responsibility—as a guide for all leadership and mentoring.
• Sit with Discomfort: Genuine change means embracing slowness, multiple perspectives, and discomfort as necessary elements.

For White Leaders / Majority-Group Leaders:

• Daily Reflection on Power: Every day, consider actions—large or small—that redistribute power or amplify marginalized voices in your workplace.
• Assess Policy Impact: Be mindful about how every policy, no matter how well-intentioned, might inadvertently dehumanize or exclude.
• Model Humanity: Err on the side of humanity, not efficiency.
• Support BABA and Similar Organizations: Consider donating or otherwise supporting organizations advancing liberation and inclusion.

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Resources and Further Listening

• BABA (Black Association of Behavior Analysts): babainfo.org
• More from Denisha: danishagingles.com
• Related Episodes:
  • Episode 190: Cultural Humility & Barriers to Leadership
  • Episode 135: Social Justice in ABA (with Denisha)
  • Episode 128: Diversity and Inclusion
  • Episode 180: Promoting Ethical Leadership
  • Episode 152: The Ethics of Teaching Cultural Responsiveness
  • Episode 262: Collaboration and Leadership in the School Setting

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Final Memorable Metaphor

"It's the difference between having it be like the frosting layer on the cake or like the baked-in layer on the cake. So we're trying to bake it in, but we still have work to do." (36:14, Diana)

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For behavior analysts and leaders everywhere, this episode is a call to slow down, reflect, “bake in” justice and inclusion, and let Ubuntu principles guide every policy, program, and conversation.

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Pairs well with:
A potluck—where every contribution is well-labeled for all diets, so everyone can partake safely and joyfully, reflecting the episode’s advocacy for compassionate, inclusive practice.

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End of summary

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hey, everybody. Welcome to ABA Inside Track, the podcast that's like reading in your car but safer. I'm your host, Robert Perry Crews, and with me, as always, are my fabulous co hosts.

[A]

Hello, Rob.

[C]

It's me, Diana Perry Cruz, coming live next to you in the chair next to you.

[B]

I'm moving the mics for you.

[D]

That was so sweet.

[B]

Wasn't it romantic?

[D]

So here's the mic. I'm Jackie McDonald, and I am today not in the room with them, sitting next to them. I am at my own house, sitting alone.

[B]

That's it.

[D]

Because I don't live with you, even though some people think I do. It's like when teachers live at school. I don't live at school, and I don't live at Diana and Rob's house.

[B]

I know listeners, if they see us in the wild, they get all freaked out. They're like, wait, oh, y' all were going back to your house, Your podcast house.

[A]

I love that.

[D]

I'm alone.

[B]

If we. If we did have a podcast house, who'd be the leader of the house, do you think? Would it be me? Because I'm the. Because I'm the host and you're only co host.

[D]

It would be you.

[B]

That's how I announced it. Not for any reason. It would be me.

[C]

Loudest ones.

[B]

I'm the. I am the loudest. So no matter what room we were in of the house, I'd be able to say, everybody, let's go this way. Which is what you say to people when you lead them around, I think. I don't know. I don't know if I'm a good leader, you guys. I just mostly tell people to stand over there. Oh, I didn't stand over here.

[C]

I understand your segue.

[B]

You didn't understand the segue.

[D]

I got this segue, and I loved it. I love that Diana did not get it, and that makes my heart so full.

[B]

Diana, you are in for a treat. This episode we're about to do that you are nominally prepared to talk about. Thank goodness it's not just us.

[A]

Say what?

[B]

But we are very excited. Speaking of leadership skills and leadership practices, we're very excited to have returning to the show Denisha jingles. Denisha, we are so happy to have you on to talk about not just leadership practices, but culturally responsive leadership practices. We're going to get specific. So thank you so much for coming back.

[A]

Yes, thank you, Rob, for having me. And I have to do my introduction. I am live from Baltimore, Maryland, joined here by my beautiful doggy, Ollie. Can I Be was that good? I can be like your fourth co host today.

[B]

Yeah, that's the point. When we have guests, they are the fourth. They're the four. I don't know D if I mentioned this to like, because you've been on a couple, a couple times now because we did some special episodes, you know, been on in other episodes. But one of my goals and ever we all agreed we want to do this is we. I read in a book about the Muppets once how when Jim Henson would have people on the Muppet show, the goal was the guest should feel like the most important person who is there. Even though like Kermit and his piggy and Gonzo are there too, the guest should always feel most important. So that was our goal is if a guest comes on and says, I feel like I'm a member of the show or, or I took over the show, then we did our job. That's our goal. So, yes, absolutely. We're excited you be the leader.

[A]

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much everyone for listening to my podcast. Today we're joined. She's moved into the house, everyone.

[C]

She's moved into the house.

[D]

She's now the house manager.

[B]

So, Danisha, it's been a little while since you've been on the show. So for folks who either haven't heard some of previous episodes or, or seen, you know, any of your talks or any of your publications, would you mind giving us a catch up to catch up to the present?

[A]

Yeah, sure. Oh my goodness. So I have not been doing much of anything, but a lot of everything lately. I have been, I would say, spending my time really in alignment. Like I'm in the season of alignment. That's was. That's where I'll say I've been just kind of making sure that my life looks like liberation, that it feels like liberation. And so I've been really pushing myself to kind of build systems and stack habits that protect myself, my community, black people, black professionals, that actually leads to liberation instead of just including us and being everywhere. So yeah, I have been a little bit of everywhere and nowhere at the same time. And I've also been doing a lot of work in my doctoral program. I'm currently a student and enrolled in an industrial organizational psychology program with a concentration on social justice. So yeah, so that's been very cool. Second year, just got a few more to go. Dissertation and I'll be good. Also have been focusing on my clinical leadership and operational leadership at Sankofa Behavioral Health, which is based in Baltimore, Maryland. Always say that I'm very fortunate to serve as the founder. It's been quite a journey. I've learned so much through it. So I'm always in the trenches there. And also serving as the president of baba, the Black association of Behavior Analyst. So, yeah, my work's just been kind of focused on sustainability and yeah, trying to thrive, not just survive, and also having a good time because I am a full human being. I'm still young, got my legs, you know, go outside, have a good time and frolic. So, yeah, that's good.

[C]

It's quite a list.

[B]

Yeah. So you got to be a student, which means kind of got to do some following, but you also got to be a student leader and you got to be an actual leader in your organization. Both, both, you know, your professional organization and your professional practice organization. So, so these, these, these topics of, of leadership and leadership practices, they're ones that you're, you're both talking about, writing about living and learning about at the same. You're doing it all at the same time, it sounds like.

[A]

Yeah, that's good.

[B]

Well, we're glad you're here to share all of that because it's. There's a lot about leadership practices. I know you shared a number of articles with us that covered, you know, some of them covered similar topics, but they all really covered different facets of the. The swath of leadership literature there. There appears to be. So before we go on, Dinah, would you mind sharing what articles will sort of be. And I don't think we're going to be discussing any of these in exacting detail. Kind of the bigger scope. And I think adding Danisha's knowledge to these is going to be the more interesting conversation. But we may, we may dip in and out of a few of them. But what did we kind of base a lot of the. Kind of our. At least our understanding on today?

[C]

Okay, I'll turn this. Yes. So we have several articles that we will refer to within the context of this conversation and they include Application of the Principles of Anti Oppression to Address Marginalized Students and Faculty's Experiences in Counselor Education by Sheikh Gumaluru, Dar, Carter, Quigg, Ponce, Mason and Peters that was published in Teaching and supervision in counseling 2024. Also, cultural responsiveness Curriculum for Behavior Analyst A Meaningful Step towards Social justice by Mather and Rodriguez that was in Behavior analysis and practice 2022. Mentoring for admission and Retention of Black Socio Ethnic Minorities in Medicine. A Scoping Review by Kim Zing, Bicolo, Jounki, Matthieu, Constant, Oguntala, Romani, Luis May, Medina, Kendall, Urabina, Hubert Domet and Fat Singh. And that was in the Journal of Medical Education and curricular development in 2024.

[B]

You know, it's a medical journal when there's 8,000 authors on it.

[C]

There sure were. And is this the last one? Nope, nope.

[D]

There's two more.

[C]

The penultimate article exploring aspects of mentoring for black and minoritized healthcare professionals in the UK, a nominal group technique study by Sriram, Atwal and McKay. And that was in the British medical journal Open. Weird, weird. Title 2024. And finally, Ubuntu Leadership and Explication of an Afrocentric Leadership Style by Lalu in the Journal of values based leadership 2022.

[D]

Okay, can I tell you how much I loved reading the articles outside of the field of behavior analysis and what other fields do, because I feel sometimes like we don't want to do that. And I've been doing it more and more because man are so many fields are way better than us in a lot of ways. They've had more time.

[C]

Right. We should be drawing from other fields. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you don't always have to recreate every everything, every idea. Right. Other folks have come before and done really good jobs of that.

[A]

So.

[D]

Yeah. What a breath of fresh air.

[A]

I have like multiple certifications, so, you know, I'm in counseling. Yes. And then obviously behavior analysis and now industrial organizational psychology and social justice is my background in general. But also now about to be on the academic side as well. So it's like, oh, yay, I get to naturally, like, branch out.

[B]

I love that your subscriptions to Journal bill must be getting, like, crazy long at this point.

[D]

It's like $2,000 a month.

[B]

I remember getting out of grad school. Like, I have a subscription to Java. That's all I need. I'll be fine.

[A]

You know, I would say this one good thing. You know how people stay in school to avoid their bills, like to avoid paying back. Stay in school so that you can just get the journal articles for free.

[C]

That's right. The college library.

[B]

It's your friend.

[C]

Definitely my friend.

[B]

Speaking of journals, I think before we get into it, because I like to start every discussion by going on a slight tangent. And it would be. I'd love to hear more about your guest editorship in. In baps because there was a special, I think was even billed as a kind of an emergency issue on social justice. And that the. The Mather and Rodriguez article, which we'll be discussing a bit, was from that. From that paper. But could you Tell us a little bit about that process. You know, the gathering articles, the. You know, the. The roles of. Of doing the guest editorship, putting it all together.

[A]

Yeah, it was. It was quite a process, for sure, for those who don't remember the context around it. So this was in the latest uprising that the entire world stopped. This was the murder of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, and so collectively in this country, and we are in another uprising space. I don't want to say, like, make it seem like that was the last and only. No, we're still uprising. But in that space at that time, there was a lot going on, and people were collectively hurt and again, still collectively hurt. But we needed to make sure that powers that be were recognizing that people existed outside of the professional space. And earlier that year, there was an emergency series that was done for Covid, and Jonathan Tarbox had put that out through that. And so at that time, I, like, called him out. I've met Jonathan. We had a very cordial relationship, you know, previous to that, but kind of like, called him out, like, hey, what are y' all doing with this? Why is there no emergency issue on what's happening right now in the world? And we talked, and he's like, I feel like there's no one better to lead this charge. Can we put it together? And so there we created the emergency series for police brutality and systemic racism. And I was very clear that I didn't want this to be a performative measure. I'm not talking about it just so that people feel good about what they've done in this moment and just go back into what they've always done. It actually needed to be a moment that expanded what we thought of as scholarly, that actually represented the movement. I said to Jonathan, at every point, I need to be able to turn every single last one of these papers into my fellow organizers, into the movement leaders that I know. And they feel like it represents what's actually happening. It can't just be what the scholars are saying is going on. And so I was very clear with that. Also very clear that who says it and who tells the story also matters. Right. And so our editorial board was 90% black and brown. And every person that was on the editorial board was from at least one marginalized community. My associate editors, Dr. Jamila Thompson and Watson Thompson, and also Dr. Caston, Anderson, Carpenter, they were our associate editors. And then from there, again, we had our full editorial board. And it was. It took a lot. You know, we had to establish the processes. We had to figure out what we wanted to say also had to make sure that anyone that was submitting anything that it felt in alignment with what was happening in the moment and the movement. And from there it created a pipeline. Like Dr. Carpenter has gone on to be an editor in chief as well as Dr. Jamila Watson has also done the same. And so that was also important to me to know that the movement in the moment wouldn't stop there. So I was, you know, I'm blessed to be able to say I'm the first black editor in chief of any behavior analytic journal. But definitely it wasn't about the title for me. It was more so about shifting what we knew about behavior analysis. Because we all. We had other movements like this in. In our time where you saw the scholarly research, like about in the 70s or so that reflected social justice principles. And then all of a sudden everything kind of went poof and we were just talking about manding and toileting. Right. So, yeah, I wanted to make sure that we were able to do that and to be able to share my contribution in that way to our field. It feels good because I still see a lot of those authors that are still publishing and doing more things beyond publishing too. They're actually in their communities.

[B]

That's great. It really was nice to kind of have. I mean, it was a very trying time. It was very difficult time, but just seeing how quickly, you know, folks, you know, like you and like John the Tarbox with the co. Some of the COVID issue, just be able to sort of generate ideas and like start getting the word out about something that wasn't, again, like you said, not performative, but either was not early, but like early on for our field, you know, not early on for a lot of the other fields, unfortunately. Well, not unfortunately. Unfortunately for us that we took so long to get back into that, you know, socially valid, meaningful change talk. But it was really kind of nice to kind of kick start that. That process with issues like the special issues like that. So thank you for that, for that work. I'm sure it was super easy. And everyone was like, I already got that paper done and you know, just put it in and you.

[A]

So easy. We got zero. We got zero pushback. You know, it was just amazing. Such a good time. Feel my sarcasm over the audio.

[C]

It was like publication is like such a notoriously slow process and it can take years to get things through the pipeline. So it was refreshing to see how quickly people were like, recognized the importance of the moment and did. Did what needed to be done to get to get that out on every single level. And I know that that was a lot of work at every single level, so I appreciated it. And I was like, look what. Look what our field can do, right? We can. We can respond to the moment. It was. That was nice to see.

[A]

Yeah, I really have to give it up to the reviewer team, really, because if you've ever served on an editorial board, you know that you might review like three a year, you know, nothing heavy. Our editors were pushing out these papers like, oh my gosh, like once a week. And they. And it's. It's the labor of love, right? Like, this stuff is not paid, everybody want unpaid. And they did it for the greater good. And so really have to. To thank them for dedicating their time to the mission.

[B]

That's great. All right, well, that is one example of leadership. So not. Not totally unrelated to our topic, but I think.

[A]

Good.

[B]

Good to hear some of that great background information and the historical information about your experiences. So when it comes to talking about leadership, you know, there's so many different terms. You know, we were talking right before we. We started recording about just like how much there is in terms of what's leadership. And a lot of it would be we'd consider kind of either mentalistic or it's not well defined or it's kind of sounds like a little vibes based on. But one of the things that I think definitely is worth having a clear definition between the two, or I'm curious if there is. Is leadership versus mentorship, because I know some of the articles that we will be discussing today really got into the idea of mentorship, and that seemed a little bit more around, say, career development versus a leadership, which could be that, but it could also be more like what we think of as supervision. I'd love to sort of hear, where do you define leadership and mentorship? How are they the same? How are they different?

[A]

Yeah, I. I do view them as different. I would say that mentorship is more developmental like you're mentioning. There's some learning that's also. Learning happens with leadership too, but there's some learning that's happening and it's also didactic. Typically is between two people. There are models that you might have three or more people that are there, but typically speaking, it's didactic. So it's one person sponsoring or guiding another person providing knowledge and another person that's receiving in a typical mentorship model. One thing I do want to share, especially in my journey, is being able to like, look beyond the Typical structure, which is very hierarchical in nature. I just mentioned there's a giver and a receiver. Right. And so learning to expand beyond that to be more communal and bidirectional, especially because we know as for me as a black woman, I'm a mentor, but I'm coming from a marginalized community. And so what happens then to the mentor when you're put in a position of giving, giving, giving, and there is someone there that is only receiving. And so what happens is that it is replicating capitalistic structures where someone has to benefit from labor, and then on top of that, then creates an extractive dynamic being extracted from by individuals. And I don't think that's really rooted in love or relational care. And so taken away or going off of those traditional mentoring frameworks, where again, it's found in capitalism, capitalistic and colonial societies, it requires, in order for it to exist, that someone consumes, consumes, consumes, consumes. And so in my own journey, I know that I had to move beyond some of the traditional views of leadership, and I'm going to get to that next. But like, servant leadership, for example, was something that I was kind of like raised on. I used to talk about it a lot, but again, like, they're typically Western ways of being. And, and from there I had to learn for myself that I'm. If the unintended effects are inequity for your mentors. So, yeah, the short answer is it's a didactic model of learning and receiving. The long answer is all that other stuff I just said.

[B]

And I know one of the themes in a lot of the articles that, that you had shared really gets into sort of some of the leadership, but a lot of the mentorship being really important for increasing diversity in any given field. And I know that that ties, you know, well into a lot of the kind of the culturally responsive practice that behavior analysis has written some about. Some people are practicing. I would like to hope that everyone is sort of resisting the culturally responsive practice push that the majority of our leaders would seem to want. But it does seem, even when some of those pieces are in place, there is a concern that just having good mentors doesn't result in change in diversity. It's not like, well, as long as we're aware of this, we'll mentor more diverse workforce. Is it kind of maybe a little, but, but, but not like what is really important when it comes to saying, like, we want to increase diversity, like, what are you going to need in, in your leadership practices?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So I, I think exactly why you're saying that is why I had to mention about typical mentorship, because that's exactly what happens. It's like, look, we have these leaders and they just so happen to be racially diverse or they come from these different backgrounds and it', well, guess what? You've just set everyone up for failure now. Right. And so I do think that's where leadership comes in at. Because leadership is the more structural, systemic side. Without good leadership, mentorship is just made to die. Right. And so I think that as a leader, you have the ability to create the ecosystem and then like, normalize what support actually looks like and then challenge the status quo. So again, and mentorship, which I feel like I hear a lot of it right now, it does nothing if it looks exactly how everything else looks. But you as a leader, you're the one that you. Because we're all leaders, we get to say we don't have to do it. That same way we can push beyond it so that these other people who are going to be put in mentorship positions can actually, like, thrive. And so if I'm defining them what leadership is, I think leadership to me is more of a social process. Yeah. Where we then utilize different motivated operations to enable other people to contribute towards a collective goal or a mission. Right. And so as a leader, I get to arrange. We arrange the contingencies that support whatever the deliverable is inside of a system.

[B]

All right. So it's a factor of if you don't have both leadership and good mentorship, sort of like looking ahead, you're going to struggle to. If your goal is to increase diversity and to continue to advance individuals from, you know, historically marginalized groups. If you don't have both, you're probably just going to see it, you know, being nice but not. Not resulting in any change.

[A]

Yeah, of course. And again, going back to the hierarchical comment that I made, if we just think about leadership as just like a straight line, someone sits up here and we don't remember that a person as a person is a person through other people, meaning that, like, leadership only exists in relationship to others, then, yeah, things start to kind of fall by the wayside if we don't remember that.

[B]

Now, I know the, you know, the Mather and Rodriguez article talked a lot about kind of the culturally responsive practices and then how that would tie into the idea of leadership. For folks who either didn't read that article or it's been a while since they've sort of thought about their own culturally responsive practices, would you mind kind of giving a quick summary of that. You know, the idea of like looking at cultural responsive practices in relation to sort of like what we're doing in behavior analysis to improve that.

[A]

Yeah. So in this article, the authors really did a good job of trying to break down some behaviors that clinicians can start to consider even inside of the systems in which they operate and understanding like the importance of CRT and again, cultural responsiveness inside of our practices. To look at the people that you're actually working with, the policies that are in place, and actually checking for these behaviors, whether through mentorship, someone observing you, and making sure that there is an observable, measurable way of displaying all of the behaviors that they listed there. And so, yeah, I think that for us it's a good starting place if, you know, we're thinking about how do I, how am I more culturally responsive as a clinician, as a scholar, as a mentor, supervisor? It's a good starting place for us all to look at some of those behaviors that they broke down. Hi.

[D]

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Sure.

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[B]

Hey everybody. Sorry to interrupt our conversation with Denisha Jingles, but I want to remind all of our listeners that ABA insidetrack is ACE and Quaba approved. And by listening, you're able to earn one Cultural SL Ethics credit for listening to the show. You're also going to need to enter in some key information by going to our website, ABA InsideTrack.com where you'll put in some information about yourself, about the topic, and some secret code words that are from Denisha. And the first of those code words is liberation. L I B E R A T I O N. It's a lot of what we're talking about on this episode, the idea of how to use leadership practices that promote liberation. All right, speaking of that conversation, let's get right back to it. So when it comes to sort of like, you know, let's.

[A]

Let's.

[B]

I'll use me as. As an example, you know, I have certain responsibilities in which I might serve as a leader. I also have tried, you know, and we've done a lot of episodes on this. I've done my own reflections in terms of looking at my own cultural responsive practices. You know, where am I doing reflection? Looking at biases, looking at my own, you know, hidden biases, looking at the structures kind of, you know, from. From a CRT lens that would maintain that behavior that could, you know, dismantle some of that. Those behavioral patterns. How does that turn more into being more of a culturally responsive leader? Is it just now that I'm culturally responsive practices, I automatically get my culturally responsive leader badge? Or is it more. More a matter of. There are certain steps that I now would find myself taking as a culture.

[C]

Rob only thinks about things in terms of video games.

[B]

If I'm not going to get a certificate or a crown to show how great I am at learning a new skill, what's the point?

[A]

Right?

[B]

You gotta. You gotta get the acknowledgement, pat on the back stuff, you know?

[A]

Yeah, well, you definitely have to get your pat on the back. No, but I. Good question, though, because cultural responsiveness definitely can't be looked at as just like a checkbox. And I think, again, great starting point. I love this article. When you get to. You get to go through it and say, okay, somebody saw it. I got to the end. Yes. Like, I'm culturally responsive. And it's like, okay, well, actually, it's a little bit more than that. It's actually about the behavior that's there. And so I think on top of that, like, yes, I'm glad that you could say that I've met this. But it's kind of like what we know about values. It's an ongoing process, and there is no destination. The same thing that we've come to the conclusion of for cultural competency. You don't get to arrive and say, I am here and competent. And also throughout that process, if you're like, okay, I can display these things outwardly. But also, let's see, I have. I'm unwilling to challenge my own Positionality. I'm unwilling to actually change systems of oppression for other people. Then, yeah, you got the skill. Somebody checked you off, but it's not really sustained. And then also, that's when we start to start. We start to just toss out words like performative. Right. And so I think that being able to always, not always, because I don't like to talk in always and nevers, but it's really important in this case. It's okay. Always, always, always considering the policy, like that is the part for other people. And like, what is going on with the system? Can I reduce these contingencies for others? Can I eliminate them? And so I think that's the biggest and most important part about being culturally responsive.

[B]

Now, some of the other pieces, you know, when we talk about, like, what. What is the. What is the leader's job? Or what does the leader do? I know, some of the articles really discuss the differentiation between, you know, I am using my leadership techniques and I'm supporting the academic aspects of my organization or of my, you know, supervisees, you know, what. Whatever the, the structure you might have. But, but also differentiating that from the idea of kind of the social learning that goes into. Into leadership. I mean, that generally makes sense to me, you know, in reading it and in talking about it. But, like, what would you say some of the differences are when you're a leader, kind of academic versus, say, social learned skills?

[A]

Yeah, I think for academics, and I'm only in academia as a student, but I. So I don't want to make it seem like I'm speaking for people who actually work in academia, but from what I know to be, it's like, academic leadership typically is about your performance. And so what can you. And your output. Right. Again, going back to how typical capitalistic structures work. So what are the grades? How many publications are you putting out? Like, have you reached tenure? Like, or do you have enough prestige to even reach that, et cetera. So I think that's what that leadership might be focused on. And, like, you're not wrong.

[D]

I'm like, nodding vigorously. I'm like, yep, yep, yep.

[A]

And it's like, oh, yeah, so now someone's probably mentoring and they're mentoring you with those things in mind because that's what's important to the ivory tower. It's that it's your publication. So then how do I teach you how to get more? How do I teach you how to do more? Right. Whereas, like, social learning, I think, is more so about how do we grow as a collective? And it Also like involves like that reflection part. So exactly how, how do you want to be inside of this space? Like we actually need to focus on that. Not just that you're performing highly and pushing out those metrics. And also do you even feel like you belong here? Again, I'm not an academia on that side, but I know what it feels like. Even as a student I know for my other colleagues who are in academia what I hear from them. And so yeah, do you even get to feel like you belong in this space? And is this something that we can even bring into our conversation? So yeah, I would say social learning has it moves beyond like that measurable outcome be in the end all be all.

[B]

I know kind of going into the different jobs between the leader and the mentor, but sort of both of them did seem to have responsibilities. Especially if you know, a goal of the leader or the mentor is to improve the diversity in the field that they're working in. Would really be to look at things like I know the Shake all study, they had a very long list of anti oppressive actions that one could take as a leader. And I my only problem with that paper is the way they set up what the list and the principles were. They sort of chunked it weirdly so you'd have the different numbers in different areas which made it a little harder because I wasn't as familiar with, with, with the work of the anti oppressive actions. So it was a little, it was, it was actually very actionable in that way. But it was a little hard to, to read at first. But in any case, we had all these anti oppressive actions that one could take as a mentor as the leader. And it kind of made me think a little bit more of say, you know, the Mather and Rodriguez article on culturally responsive techniques and how much of that ties into our ethics code or what's not in our ethics code or what's kind of in our ethics code. And the same with the task list. Like if you squint you can kind of see many of those practices in the task list but it's really like not being directly taught anymore. Do you see, you know, the current iterations of the ethics code and the task list as you know effectively enough capturing the skills one would need to be a leader who practices anti oppressive action? Or is it sort of one of those things where it's the spirit's there but the specifics leading to action maybe need some work?

[A]

Yeah. So because I'm a founder of an organization and I also teach other people under no, you know Our ethics code did I believe that it could allow us to capture anti oppressive practices? I've literally been telling anyone that ever trained under me to please know that this is just a starting point. We actually need to. We do more. And so then you're going to learn from here what it looks like to start thinking about things beyond what the BACB has already put in place. And so I think for us, we kind of learn that this is just like what it means to be compliant to the bacb. Like, this is just what they require. Oh, as long as you do that, then you should be fine. Right. And so, so that kind of puts us then in a mindset of like, how to avoid, like, liability rather than like, this is how you promote justice. I don't think that was ever a space for us to consider. No. And so, yeah, I think, I think it's different when you have things that say, like, do no harm, but like, okay, what does it mean to like, do repair? Like, you know, how do we actually do that? And not just the little simple, like, did you make sure to reach out to them one time before? You know, So I would say we've always needed to expand our ethics code and, you know, it does not reflect that. And we have way more work to do if we ever want that to be what it can do.

[D]

I love and I. I want to bring up. And I know it wasn't part of our reading because I didn't know we were gonna. I don't know why I didn't think we would talk about this, but the, the Baba March memo about the BACB taking out cultural responsiveness. I think you guys, if anyone's listening and they haven't read that memo that was released by Baba, I would encourage you to just type in Baba Memo 2025 March. And I learned a lot just from that memo. I actually cited it in a recent paper that I am trying to get published because it really highlights the lack of focus that the BACB is giving to cultural responsiveness at this time. So I think that would be an appropriate dive. It's a fun little ditty that you can do when you're watching tv.

[B]

No, Jackie, don't read a memo of importance while watching tv. That's terrible. During commercials, right?

[C]

Don't you look at the small screen while you have the big screen on?

[A]

I mean.

[B]

Yeah, and I'm doing a terror. Yeah, because I'm, I'm like, let Me Wikipedia this random 70s singer who cares.

[C]

If I pay attention, is actually good at multitasking. But I am. Oh, I'm the one you happen to be. You can take in.

[B]

You're the, you're the Neo of the multitasking matrix. That's great.

[D]

During commercials, you need. You have time. And we all know that we don't have the premium subscriptions where there aren't commercials. So there are commercials. And that's when you can use your time wisely. You can get up, get a drink, and you can read this blog from March 2020.

[C]

You can do your jumping jacks.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You can't do all.

[C]

Some people do that. I've heard. I don't know.

[B]

It's too many things. Pick one.

[C]

It's too many things.

[B]

Do it well.

[C]

But just.

[A]

Yeah, I do want to say, too, with that statement, one of the things with that statement, we made it very clear to remind people that even with dei, it was just a. It also was a starting place. I think people really get comfortable. They're like, oh, well, at least we had the DEI language. Or like, oh, at least we have these, like one or two goals that are written into our organizations, goals that they've set. And it's like, I'm so sorry. Yes, that's wonderful. And we still have more work to do, so don't get comfortable. So I think it's. It was really important for us to remember, even while we were saying we were disappointed in this, that we, we were, you know, we shouldn't have been fully happy with what was already existing in the first place.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely right.

[C]

Yeah. In. In all of these examples. And I feel like it ties into academia world too, just having like one, one line that says, oh, and make sure that you're applying cultural, culturally responsive practices across all areas. Make sure you're applying compassion across all areas. Right. Like, that's just not gonna. Gonna be enough. And that doesn't allow people to have a strong enough understanding of how to make that application. And that's true in academia, too. You can't just be like, oh, and then we're going to have one one day where we make sure we talk about cultural responsiveness. But it won't be tied into any of our other lessons or readings.

[B]

It'll be a separate culture within our book. And you can look to the side of the box.

[C]

Right? Yeah, the side box. Right. So it's the difference between having it be like the frosting layer on the cake or like the baked in layer on the cake. So we're trying to bake it in, but we still have work to do.

[A]

Yeah, it's all a bad metaphor. It's nice.

[B]

I mean, I guess can you continue on with that point when we're looking at those, at those practices, even when things were. It's hard to say, oh, there was so much. Remember 2020? Remember how much we all had great fun in 2020.

[A]

Good.

[B]

No, but man, I'm not loving 2025 that much for other reasons. Different, terrible reasons. But. But thinking. Thinking of the moments when it was like, maybe we're on the right track, we're moving in that right direction. Where would you see sort of the biggest sort of. Here are the actionable skills that are hinted at in the task list. They're hinted at in the code. And now with an eye towards culturally responsive practice, we can put into our leadership to sort of keep this going and accelerate this process. Like are there specific either skills or tasks, you know, whether they're from the. The Mather Rodriguez article or other ones that you've been kind of reflecting on since that was published that you would say should be a part of the leadership kind of knowledge base or the leadership bag?

[A]

Yeah, I would say. I think one thing that. And this is probably gonna sound it like fru. Fru. But one part of that is empathy is a starting point. Like that's a skill and a behavior that it can be shown in behavior. I think we need to parse it out a bit more. But I would say what does it look like to actually show empathy to our communities? It's difficult when you have all these like rules, regulations that people start teaching you. And I think it becomes so easy. People say, well that's what the paper says. Right. And so I don't know, kind of like breaking that down in some type of way. I don't know. The redistribution of power is just like a really important. And again, how do they fit into a task list the BACB would need to consult me on? For now, I'm joking.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

But there needs to be ways that we teach people how to actually redistribute power and what that looks like on a day to day basis. Yeah, I don't know. Those are the, those are the two things that's coming to mind right now. Like when I like critical things that I think is necessary, like the level of empathy, it goes beyond like just the basic. And so like I, I think we. It's very. Sometimes it can be uncomfortable. And so not just using that as like a. Oh, he has everyone chat that empathy and consider others. What does that actually look like? And obviously There are more skills that are required to even show empathy. But I think that and knowing how to redistribute power are the top two great.

[B]

So I mean I think some of those skills get into, I think one of the challenges that were brought up in many of these leadership papers of it's good to have individuals who are aware of these changes that need to happen. But there still is a bit of a dearth of individuals who can fluently practice some of those kind of either whether they're anti oppressive skills, whether it's kind of a knowledge of culture, responsive practice. There's only so many people who can do this really well, which is not even necessarily the same as teaching other people to do this really well. And I know there have been some improvements in a lot of the kind of academic field in terms of our kind of next generation trying to supervise more of those skills, making that a part of coursework. Jackie and Diana, I know you've done that, you know, in, in, in your programs as well. But I mean I'm, I'm not sure if it's quite where it, I don't think any of us would say it's probably where it needs to be in order for it to become a skill that even just empathy like you said Danisha, just making sure that's something everyone can, can do. We can all do empathy so well and then teach empathy so well. I don't know, Jackie, Diana, maybe you have more kind of direct line to what did it look like within creating programs and everything. And I know I didn't put this on the list of questions, so sorry I'm throwing you on the spot. You gotta talk about something you're not thinking of at the moment.

[D]

I'm just, I, I, when you said those two things I was like swear word. Those are two of the hardest things to teach in, in a graduate program. Right?

[B]

Because that's why I asked you because I know I can't do it, but you can. So let's hear the answer.

[D]

But they're really hard, right? So empathy is a hard because it's not a set, just not a set of skills.

[A]

Right.

[D]

We could teach someone just a set of skills, but they still might lack empathy after doing those skills and it might even be worse, right? Because now it's seen as disingenuous. So I, I think, I don't know the answer. I have been thinking about this answer a lot to be fair, because I have been doing a lot of training with some students that don't necessarily have a Lot of empathetic responses. And it's just. It never was taught. And it's not a skill that they have. And trying to incorporate that into, like, soft skills training has been. Has been really challenging because they'll engage in the skills that I've operationally defined, but it's. It's somehow it's falling short.

[A]

Can I say one thing I've learned, like, please. About that. I've said it about behavior analysis, like, as soon as I got into the field. So my background, I started in psychology, started in counseling. So here I am. I have my master's degree in counseling, and then I find behavior analysis. And I found it really interesting that we were teaching our clients, like, flexibility, but then behavior analysts were not flexible at all. And I was like, whoa, hello, what's going on? And so I have learned, even through my leadership, the things that I write down as policy. Because you need policy, right? You have to have policy. But unfortunately, what happens is this becomes so black and white. Y' all remember the days in our field where people said you couldn't even accept a drink of water, right? Yep. Because of what the BACB wrote in. That's literally what's happening. And so, like, I have to examine how I'm writing policy because I know my person and my spirit and my aim behind the policy. But the moment that it gets written down. Oh, you're the police. Like, people think that we can police other people through. Well, Denisha, you wrote it. I wrote it because we needed to have some guidelines. And that's true. But now I have to write examples. Non examples. And be way more specific than I ever thought to be, which is like, okay, behavior analyst, duh, Technological. But it's like, way more technological. And so I think that that's just like, what I've been learning on my journey is to be like, think of all the non examples, surely that you can think of, which is an exhaust. Like, you know, it's like you write things like, this is a non exhaustive list. Sometimes, unfortunately, that doesn't exist anymore. Like, you need to make the exhaustive list on, like, a lot of different things. And so not to say that that makes it easier, but I am learning that I just want to. Want to share with that. Share that with you, Jackie. That I'm also learning, too, what is getting in the way. And sometimes I think my own words get in my own way, my own policies get in my own way. And now I need to figure out a way to, like, kind of bring people back to the Human behind just the black and white words that are written on this document. Right.

[C]

I find myself giving a lot of examples during class of the ways in which I have changed my thinking on issues.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Or said like, you know, by the book, this is what it would look like. But then I looked at it as a human and said, why am I doing. Why am I doing that? Right. Why would I ask someone. Why would the goal be that someone can sit still for two minutes and wait for something without anything else to do? I don't do that. You don't do that.

[A]

Right. Why. Why are we teaching that that's not.

[C]

A useful skill, like, just as an example to try to show people that at the end, it should be like your critical thinking and analysis. And if we have to make a decision, like, err on the side of humanity at the end.

[B]

There's a level, I think, in any of these discussions of, you know, of updating practices and certainly being more culturally responsive of. And again, I'm speaking. I. I'm guessing other people have felt this way, but some of it specifically, mostly specifically to my own, you know, my own journey, my own reflections of. Of being able to sit with discomfort. And, you know, I. I know one of my huge frustrations with it probably would have been 2022, 2023, you know, right after Covid, right after, you know, the Black Lives Matter, you know, movement had become something that people were, you know, very aware of and very supportive.

[C]

You were aware?

[B]

I was. I was aware. Fine. My reflections, my. My Rob's story time. Now it's about me would be just this sense that it was hard. It was, you know, I think people seemed like they were more ready to be in that discomfort because everything had just felt so wrong and just off kilter. And we all wanted something different. And I know for me, it was like that made it very positive. It made it a lot easier to reflect on things. You know, I was still alive after this time. My family was still alive. You know, my close relatives were still. You know, we made it through. And so it was a little easier to sit with some of that discomfort. But I'm imagining students who are coming out of school in the next two, three years. And I don't think our, you know, the American society is in a place where they're comfortable with any amount of discomfort for. For a variety of reasons. But I think a lot of people are not in a place where they are. They feel safe to be uncomfortable, which means I do see many of the small movements, you know, the Small changes that hopefully will lead to bigger changes really stalling out. And it feels very frustrating. And I'm like, well, I'll do my part, but, you know, my part is only so much part. It does feel like there's an overwhelming wave against anyone's single part.

[C]

Disagree?

[B]

You disagree? Okay. That's all you got.

[C]

I don't want to get us off track.

[B]

I just tie it into the idea of leadership, you know, as leaders, as folks who serve as leaders, whether, you know, academic leaders, whether as social leaders, you know, what are the steps we can do so that I guess we don't sound like, you know, mopey, mopey Kathy's or what's. Whatever.

[A]

The.

[B]

What's. Who's the mopey character? Some mopey character who's like, I don't know, there's nothing we can do. I thought it was going to be better by now. Sorry, everybody.

[C]

You know, not. Not to get too off track, but I feel like we are about to witness the power of the people and. And res. Our generation should be finding what that is. That's all I'm going to say about that. Okay, let's talk about Ubuntu leadership to make sure that we're getting through all of our important questions.

[B]

All right, Switching gears. So there are a lot of leadership theories. I really like the Ubuntu. Ubuntu. I don't remember Ubuntu leadership article that you shared. And it was, it was funny. It was definitely written in a way that I was not expecting. It was very much. Here's an example of what it looks like. Oh, great. But Denisha, would you mind? So I don't know if everyone wants to hear about the rugby team in South Africa and you know, the, the, the example, but what is Ubuntu leadership from more of a. From part of the academic standpoint.

[A]

Yeah. So I always like to break things down and we can go from there. But like the me to we, like Western society is very hyper individualized. Right. We is more so like collectivism. And so I think to understand what Ubuntu leadership really means is that rejection of the lone leader, like the heroic leader. I think a lot of times still, like, we see leadership as again, being one person at the top. And so instead of leadership looking like that and feeling like that, it's more so built on that interdependence and collectivism which, you know, to Diana's point, you know, people are tapping into that in this moment, need more people to do it. But yes, people are tapping into that collectivism and what it looks like as a community to be on that opposite end of individualism. And so in practice, that's going to mean things like checking on the decisions that we're making. Are they actually uplifting everybody here or are the loudest people in the room the ones that are being uplifted? Only Right. And so it allows us to kind of like center that. I think empathy is a big thing that comes into Ubuntu leadership. Then what else? Reciprocity. Again, we were talking about mentorship earlier and it being bi directional. And I think Ubuntu has the ability to capture those things as another way of leadership.

[B]

Yeah, I know one thing that seemed. I don't know, and I don't necessarily know because I'm not a manager. I just read a lot of, you know, like Wall Street Journal articles and like Business Today articles. But I know Ubuntu leadership really did have a level of respect for people who had some level of seniority, less because of seniority that they were like the president of a company, and more the seniority of experience. You know, age and wisdom. You know, like a sense of, you know, having lived a life means you have something to still share, no matter, you know, no matter your actual age. But I know that a lot of young professionals, one of the things that is written about them and written about them, not necessarily by them, is a sense of, I need to do something now, I need to be doing something meaningful now. Like, my opinion is important and I need to be a part of the decisions now. You know, Danisha, in terms of your understanding of Ubuntu leadership, would you see the two being at odds? Would you be seeing that possibly that attitude is less about. They wouldn't. Like, Ubuntu leadership versus people are really sort of chafing at the Western hero leader narrative. And if they had a different way, they'd be totally fine with, you know, caring about senior or respecting seniority in terms of age and wisdom.

[A]

Again, I think so for me, even with Ubuntu is because that principle. I am because we are. Right? I am because you are. I mean it. It goes both ways, right? And so, yeah, there's that respect. But I think for the younger generation seeing that, then that means that you are here too. Like, we are all here. And so I do think the application is something that can also. And I don't want to say like think, you know, I utilize these principles in my own leadership. So I think that I have the opportunity to work with the young people as well. And being able, you get to capture them. It's like, I can't take away the fact that I am your auntie, right? I look, I'm older than you. You see me as older than you. So then because of the way that you've been socialized, you may or may not give me a level of respect based on my age, but also I. You then get to see yourself reflected in me, and I, you. So I do think that it allows all of the voices in the room, and that's something that is desirable by any person. Because the principles of Ubuntu, like, I'll tell you, in my PhD program, one of my teachers, God bless his spirit, was like, is this just for black people? And I was like, are any of the leadership theories we've been talking about just for white people? Like, no, they are universal, right? And so, like, we're talking about universal principles that people feel good when. When they experience them, right? Like, oh, wow, this person had empathy towards me. Oh, wow, this person thinks of me highly enough to give me responsibility. Oh, wow, Like, I get to also help build this ship. Like, these are normal. Not normal. I don't want to use that word. But these are general ways and universal ways of being. And so, no, it's not about just like, oh, Ubuntu. That can only be applied in this. With this one particular group of people. Again, it matches through all groups. If we start breaking down those. Just taking the name out of it and start looking at the actual behaviors and principles that are inside of the leadership model.

[B]

And I know in the. The author's example of Ubuntu leadership of the. The rugby coach, it also had a lot of the culturally responsive practices sort of built in. And it was. It was a small example, you know, it just. Just knowing that the competitors were that were Japanese and sort of honoring them by, you know, using some of their language, using one of their kind of honorific, I think was a. It was a term. I can't remember the term, but it's like for a bow, as part of the speech, like, acknowledging, you know, and respecting them, their journey, how they got there, as well as part of the. Part of the discussion, you know, so. So Ubuntu does kind of feel like it. I know we're not checking boxes. I know we're not about just checking the boxes, but does really seem to capture a lot of the values that one would want to see in practicing culturally responsive leadership. Am I. Am I oversimplifying it or am I putting Ubuntu leadership kind of on a pedestal? It's like, that's the best leadership because it does the things we want.

[A]

So I will also say this. One of the things for my dissertation, again, I'm not in the dissertation phase just yet, but in the preparatory stage, it was very important for me. I'm. My research is based on African centered leadership, but also I've included liberatory leadership as well. So for me, it's not a one or the other. You can have any type of leadership model that doesn't fully encapsulate liberation or anti oppression. Right. And so for me, I think whatever we choose, because we learned this phrase when I was in grad school, it's called the dodo bird effect. All of one almost have prizes. And so what that means is that we can look at so many different leadership models and say, aha. I looked at serving leadership for years and said aha. Until I started feeling like a workhorse and feeling like, oh my goodness, I'm just like carrying too much. Right. And it just didn't feel like an aha moment to me anymore. It was a new aha that I need to go find something else that matched what I was also experiencing. And so I do think Ubuntu leadership has so, so much to offer us. Absolutely. Just like I think other leadership styles do. But in terms of, just like you said, those values that it captures, so many of them are the ones that I think are so important to us in any type of relationship that you are in. And that's why that matters to me, because it's like breaking down this, like, professional dynamic that we have. And that's the only time that we want to talk about being in relationship with other people. Absolutely not. I want to make sure that I can be interdependent in my own life. I want to have empathy. I want to be able to exude compassion. I want to feel respect and to be respectful of other people. I want to always look at your own dignity. Right. I want to make sure that there's reciprocity. And so these, these values are not just something that come up at work. They are like, they fit with and resonate with who I am as well and how I want to experience life with others too. Okay, I like that. Me too.

[B]

Denish, do you mind sharing a couple examples of. I. I mean, you've mentioned like one or two kind of as we've gone through a few of the different, you know, discussion areas, but of of how Ubuntu leadership could look like in behavior analysis or does look like, you know, when. When. When you feel you're practicing it as. As a leader in behavior analysis. The rugby examples are great. I don't know if everyone's going to be able to generalize those.

[C]

I don't know how to play.

[B]

Yeah, I already am, like, at a loss. I'm like, oh, rugby.

[A]

Yeah. I've never tried to play the game myself.

[D]

I used to play.

[C]

I played.

[B]

Oh, so sorry. Let me ask Jackie about you, because Jackie played rugby. That's probably the important part of that article, right? The rugby.

[D]

To be fair, I don't remember the rules. I just. Because I was a very small person when I was playing rugby, and so they. I was at the end and so they would just throw me the ball and I would run as fast as I can so I wouldn't get beaten up.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[C]

Nice.

[D]

There you go.

[B]

You were probably. The coach was probably using Ubuntu leadership and saying, you know, even though Jackie's tiny and could get smooshed, she still has an important part to play on our team and we value her.

[D]

I don't know about that, but that's okay.

[A]

That wasn't very good.

[C]

Things have come a long way. Denisha will have other examples.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'll try to wrap in some of those from the article that can be seen, like in our day to day number one, I think, is that there's like this egalitarian. Egalitarian mindset and like the collective that you saw in there. So, yeah, we're from two different sides of the coin, but how do we fit and merge into one? Right. And so I tell people this all the time. No matter where you go, you're creating a new culture. What you're bringing and what they're bringing now we've created something new. And so that's what it looks like to also have that collective mindset versus, like the hierarchical. Somebody merges to my culture. Right. Like, no, we're creating a new one together. On the other side of that, then that's like, relational. Like, how are we looking at the relationships that exist between anybody that is inside of this space? Diana, you said something earlier, and I think that also is how you see it in practice, the focus on humanity. So, yes, it was written. Right. And it's written for a reason. Efficiency. Right, Right. But let's. Let's focus on humanity. And so I think that's. The other part is like, kind of being able to balance those Two, that's going to be the difference between like being more so Western centric versus like the simuntu, African centeredness. I would say, especially in behavior analysis, like we think the better or the more titles we acquire then like we're establishing like some authority and that creates the power for us. But I think in Ubuntu leadership is more so like power through connection. Like how are we connected actually versus the places you go. So yeah, I would say the relationship, who's making decisions and how, the egalitarian nature, the collective and honoring the relationships.

[B]

Yeah, well, I, I, I am a big fan of the Ubuntu leadership. I know our, the district I work in had last year that was like Ubuntu was the term. So we kept, we got all the stickers and things which, you know, it's always fun to see people using new terms. Do they all stick as well and follow through? You know, I, I, I'm not sure I haven't done the deep dive, but it is, I think a value, a valuable leadership style that I wish you could practice more because man, I don't know about everyone else. I'm a little tired of some of the western centered hero leadership styles. They, they all kind of are frustrating.

[C]

But you know, we in, in my class, we talk about weird culture, right? So it's like a Western educated, individualized, rich and democratic. Does anybody else know if I got that right? I think I did.

[B]

But that spells weird.

[A]

So industrialized.

[C]

Oh yeah, it very well could be for the, yeah, but weird versus non weird culture. And I pair that up with talking about like there's like an awesome graphic of like an iceberg of culture and talking about how like the very top level of culture is the things that we always think about, like, oh, you know, this culture has this kind of food and dance and religion, but the important stuff, the deeper stuff you don't actually see. And so we could be entering into, you know, our relationships with very different ideas and understandings of what it means to be a leader, what it means to be in a, any type of relationship with someone. Right. Like what, what power means. Like all of those are things that we can't see about one another's culture and often don't even realize about our own culture and recognizing that that's like a value for us. Right? So like trying to introduce those ideas to my students and helping them see, like you, you might not even know how you think about this thing. And once you figure that out, then also recognizing that other people may not Think that same way, right? Like, that understanding that you have is not the only way to think about that. And so these types of supervisory relationships fit into that as well as, you know, many other aspects of how we're interacting with one another and with our clients too. And the more that we can talk about those things and have these types of conversations, it really can open up your understanding of your place in the world and how you're going to decide to be towards other people, too. So I recommend that.

[A]

Love that. And, and I want to say too, like Ubuntu, like, it's not an easy way of being. When we start having moments of conflict, right? When things look different than the way that they were written, that's when that, that discomfort sets in. And it's very easy as human beings to want to cling to what we've always known and what's worked in the past, which is going to probably be something transactional, maybe also something punitive. Right. And so it requires, like, a deep sitting inside of these ideals and values. And sometimes people are like, I don't have time for that. It's not efficient. Right. And so it won't work for people who are unwilling to be uncomfortable for a little bit longer and also know that it's not quick. I think that's another thing that is, like, connected with, again, the Western way of being that we want things immediately done and kind of moving on to this. It requires you to take more time with. Sit down even. There is an African decision making model that I've learned and been glad to learn that, oh, it takes a long time because you're supposed to actually hear from everybody. You're not supposed to leave this room until we reach a new consensus. Do you know how I said, like, we create a new culture?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, we need to create a new consensus before we go. It's not. Well, the loudest person said that that's what they wanted to do. So I'm just going to sit here until I can convince everybody else to come to what I say. No, it's like, well, I need to hear your perspective. How do we wrap in your perspective inside of this? And. Or let's talk through that perspective, you know, because sometimes when you need to get things done, like if the ship is sinking, we don't have time to sit here and listen to somebody say, well, don't do this thing. We're all gonna die. Right? And so, so, yeah, it's just, it's. It just requires you to slow down way more. Again, it's the antithesis of how we've been conditioned living in this United States of America. And so it's not comfortable for a lot of people, and a lot of people actually go against it, and that's okay. It's like in your own timing, or maybe not, but I know, like, this is just where I am in my timing. I want to continue to, like, be there and be willing to be uncomfortable with what it looks like to. To actually be empathetic and actually care about community and. And also be accountable. Like, you know, in order for me to be accountable to my community, I also have to be able to be accountable to myself. And so, yeah, I think Kumbunta just allows us to start thinking about it in that way. Excellent.

[B]

Well, I think this is a good place to start pulling into the dissemination station.

[C]

It was a slow train.

[D]

I like the slow train here today.

[B]

Just, you know, I hear the train.

[A]

You've got to be thoughtful.

[C]

Efficiency is not everything sometimes.

[D]

Yeah, sometimes you just need to be thoughtful.

[C]

Yeah, I think that was the dissemination station, guys. So I know I'm done.

[B]

So that. So listen, before the dissemination station for dissemination stage, these are some questions that came after we got to the dissemination station that are kind of related, I suppose.

[A]

So.

[B]

Denish, I know kind of, you know, where you are in the dissertation process. Perhaps you don't want to be thinking about other research questions other than like the one you gotta research and write about yourself. You know, let's. Let's embrace the chaos of what. What are the big kind of research questions about leadership? Because certainly I hear about Ubuntu leadership. I hear you speaking about some of the power of the different leadership styles, a level of flexibility going between the leadership styles as well, that could be contextual, that could be based more on sort of creating a whole new leadership style that merges some of the strengths from the different cultural leadership styles. But what are the kind of the leadership questions that maybe we don't know about? You know, they sound good, we're able to chat about them, but we don't necessarily know which one's leading to certain outcomes or which one is the easiest maybe to teach at scale. I don't know, like, so many questions you could have. Like, are there areas that you're like, I want to know this about leadership. Like, someone tell me, here are the facts, Or I got to find these facts myself, potentially.

[A]

Yeah, you're right. When I saw this question, I was like, oh, I don't want anything about research today. My homework is due Tonight. Wow. But I honestly, this level of leadership or this area of leadership is, is understudied, especially like in leadership areas like industrial organizational psychology. So like, obviously it's like kind of behavior analysis. Like it's a newer field, but it's old enough to have a lot of research and there's basically nothing. And even my professors who work at big Fortune 500 companies or like have been consultants, they're like, what is this? And so a lot of times, unfortunately, I just feel like that is the connection to research that I have is like, like there's a gap. And so I would like to see those gaps filled. Like, we know that there is a lot of data and research right now on psychological safety. Right. So I am wrapping that into my dissertation because I need stuff that's already been proven. But for me, I would like to see what are the impacts of taking a more liberatory stance to leadership. And so again, that's where African center, anti oppressive, liberatory leadership comes in. For myself, I want to measure that, that. I want to see what that looks like. What is then this concept of psychological safety. What does that look like then? If we have these things in place, that's like my dissertation almost in a nutshell. So if anybody is listening, let me know if you have some literature for me to read. But anyway, so I want to see that. I want to see how does that measure up against some of the things that matter to us. Like retention. Right. Does that impact retention at all? I would like to also see how people capture it. So I think it's important, you know, taking an approach, it's one thing to say, well, this happens. I think that happened a lot when we start talking about diversity where people are like, well, guess what? Your business will make more money if you have a diverse workforce and people like, yes, go make more money because capitalism wins. And so I don't want to do anything like that, but I want to know the good impacts of it. But I also want to know what it feels like. So I want to be able to get the information from people who are experiencing that. Yeah. So I think that's where I focused on more. So is like knowing what it feels like and then also knowing the measurable outcomes, also being able to do those observations in person and writing down like, okay, so when we say empathy, this is what we meant. Like, these are some actual examples of it. And then this is what it felt like for that person to receive it. So those would be some of the areas that I would want to see in our research, I want evidence for liberation because I believe liberation is possible for all people. And I believe there is a reason that people don't want us to feel that way or believe it. But I want to be one of the people that is saying, look, we already know it, but I want to also be able to show it in the literature as well.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

It's very uplifting.

[B]

Yeah. My last question kind of comes into, you know, practice. So for folks who are maybe not as interested in the research, like, that sounds great. Read it when it comes out. Right now I got to go to work tomorrow, and I got to make sure that I am using the most supportive leadership practices I can.

[C]

Can.

[B]

We're still, you know, behavior analysis is still a majority white field, meaning that many leaders, even if you are in a diverse setting, you are, you, you know, you, you, you most likely are. Are white. And you know, are there good practices that would be really key to keep in mind when it comes to leadership to continue creating supportive environments for our, you know, bipoc behavior analysts that, that, that you would recommend that folks are looking into reflecting on practicing daily.

[A]

The most important practice for daily. The most important daily practice, I would say, is not going to be even though, again, everything is relational. But I do think the most important practice is especially for those who have the ability. And if you were in a workplace where they used to say, like, your scam was your protection. Right. That was like a saying. So if you are white in your workplace, really considering ways that you can. What you can do right now, no matter how small it is to help redistribute power within your workplace, like, that's going to be a thing that I say is a daily practice, and that's the one that really matters. I think it's one thing, you know, for people to say like, oh, I really believe that a system should change. It's another to know that you're part of helping that system change as well and that you can do that every day. Okay.

[B]

So very, very helpful. Thank you so much. Denise Jingles, thank you for coming on the show again. It's always great to have you back. I usually ask if people could reach out, where could they reach out? But I'm guessing you're getting to a point where you would rather not have a bunch of people bothering you because you have a lot of work you're trying to get done. A lot of your own leadership you have to do with your free time. So do you want me to. People can email us and we'll check in with you at some point.

[A]

Here we go.

[D]

Like that. Like that? Yeah.

[A]

Love that. No, yeah, I do. You can go to my website. DanishAjingles.com is the only place that you can really reach me. But there is an email form on there that'll come to my email, and when I check it, I will check it. You know, but you do that. I would also say if. If you're looking for me, look for Baba. And so even if you can't connect with me, contact Baba, Figure out ways to donate and give back to spaces like Baba. You know, we talked about today, like, the rollback of dei, and I think that Baba is just another good example for why those type of spaces exist. Like, even when they take things out of our field, that we're going to keep doing the work, and we. We're gonna. We've always done it. And so, like, you know, if. So if anyone's listening and you feel so inclined to give to Baba, I would say go to the website Babainfo.org and there's a little button at the top that says donate. We also have a monthly donation option as well. So if you're like, you know what, my company wants to give, you know, $100 to Baba every year, every month, or my kind, like, I personally want to give $10 a month to Bab, say, consider that. So if you think about me, consider giving a Baba, please and thank you.

[C]

I love it.

[B]

Beautiful. All right, well, we hope everyone enjoyed listening to Nisha again. Thank you so much for coming on today. It was a real pleasure.

[A]

Thank y' all for having me. It's been a blast, like always. I really appreciate the funnies like you. I. I love to laugh, and you all are so funny. You make me smile every single time. So thank you.

[C]

Thanks.

[B]

One more time. We want to thank Tanisha Jingles for coming on the show. We always have such a great time talking with her about some of these, like, very big issues that get a little bit of discussion in our field. But there's always so much more from outside of our field to bring into behavior analysis. And it is always nice to have her lens and all her hats to really contextualize those conversations into actionable steps that practitioners in behavior analysis can take towards culturally responsive leadership. And before we wrap up, let's get to that last section of the show. It's pairings. Diana, that's your cue.

[C]

I thought there would be more cue.

[B]

I couldn't remember if I say take it away or.

[A]

Yes, usually you Do I?

[B]

Okay.

[C]

That's okay. This is pairings. Pairings is the part of the show where I tell you about past episodes that you might want to check out if you enjoyed this discussion today, and we have several to refer you to. Several times we've talked about leadership and or culturally responsive practices. And so they are as follows, in no particular order, episode 190, cultural human humility and Barriers to Leadership with Nasia srincione ulazi. Episode 135, Social justice in Aba with our current guest Denisha Jingles, as well as Aaron Donovan. Episode 128, Diversity and Inclusion with Adrian Bradley and Kat Jackson Episode 180, Promoting Ethical Leadership with Manny Rodriguez. Episode 152, the Ethics of Teaching Cultural Responsiveness. And finally, episode 262, Collaboration and Leadership in the School Setting with Bruce Tenor. I also like to recommend a snack to go with the episode as well. So today's snack, I thought it would be appropriate for it to be a potluck, right? Everybody bring something that they enjoy to the table. But I also wanted it to be a well labeled potluck because I feel like that that is a compassionate practice when you can see on there like does it have peanuts, does it have salt, does it have gluten? Right? Like a really. I always appreciate it when I'm at a buffet or a potluck and everything is labeled well because it allows everyone to feel safe and included. And that's an important part of cultural responsiveness too. So that was pairing. Please enjoy.

[B]

All right, thanks Diana, and thank you all so very much for listening. This was our episode on culturally responsive leadership practices. We hope you enjoyed our discussion with Denisha Jingles. And if you want to learn more, certainly check out the links to the articles that were discussed. They are a lot of them not from our field, so it's always interesting to read from outside ABA when it comes to research. We certainly would love for you to leave us a review wherever you like to leave a review. Subscribe to our podcast wherever you like to listen to podcasts. Certainly you can go, like I said, to our website abainsidetrack.com to find links to the articles as well as to purchase CES if you would like. And speaking of purchasing ces, you're going to want the second code word when you get there. It's ubuntu U B U N T U. You know what it is if you listened to the whole episode. I hope so. Or at least, at least you have a beginning understanding of what it is, I should say. Also, if you want even more ABA InsideTrack, please check us out at patreon.com abainsidetrack where you can subscribe at really any level. But at the five and ten dollar levels you start getting a lot of bonuses, including, you get everything, all of our episodes ahead of time, a week ahead of time, access to our polls for listener choice and book club episodes and free CES. At the $5 level you get free CES for our listener choice episodes, which we do once a season. And at $10 and up you're able to get access to our book clubs right when they come out. And two free CES for each of those and we do those similarly once per season. That's patreon.com ABA Inside Track and to wrap up, some final big thanks. Big thanks of course, to our guest Denisha Jingles, to Dr. Jim Carr for recording our intro outro music, Kyle Sturry for our interstitial music, and Dan T.H. abbott of the podcast Doctors for his amazing editing work. We'll be back next week with another fun filled episode, but until then, keep responding by.