← ABA Inside Track
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
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B
Hey, everybody. Welcome to ABA Inside Track, the podcast that's like reading in your car but safer. I'm your host, Robert Perry Crews, and with me, as always, are my fabulous co hosts.
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C
Oh, hey, Rob.
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A
It's me, Jackie McDonald.
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B
Hi.
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D
And it's me, Diana Perry Cruz.
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B
Oh, my goodness. It's so great to see you all in our podcast about behavior analysis and behavior analytic research, where every week we pick a topic and then discuss some relevant research. But, you know, first, let me ask you all, before we get into this, into the topic, which I haven't introduced yet, but how is everyone doing? How are you doing?
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D
Fine.
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B
I'd love to hear more about that.
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D
I'm pretty sure you don't want to hear. Yeah, I know exactly.
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A
It sounds great about my day today.
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B
Tell me about it.
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D
You do?
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A
I cried at Whole Foods.
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B
That sounds like it was hard. So you were at Whole Foods.
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D
Oh, you're doing good.
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B
Rob, what happened? Okay, no, I've lost before. I've lost before.
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A
I've lost before. I'm loving.
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B
I'm sorry, everybody. Listeners, Listeners, I was trying to use a technique that I think is gaining some heat in the behavior analytic field. Field.
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D
Heat or speed?
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B
Huh?
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D
Heat.
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B
It's. It's. It's speedy. It's so speedy that it's gaining heat because friction.
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D
No, gaining heat. It's like.
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B
Like it's getting hot.
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D
No, gaining heat is like getting criticism.
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B
Oh, I meant heat. Like, it's. It's like, ooh. Everyone's like, this is the new cool thing. Except it's not new because it's been around in other fields for quite some time.
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D
What is it cool?
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B
It is motivational interviewing. And some of you might be listening and say, Rob, you sounded like you were an expert at it, so you probably should be the guest on the show, But I wasn't. So I figured I would get an actual expert in motivational interviewing who is also a BCBA and we're very excited to have on the show today to talk about motivational interviewing with us, Dr. Monica Gilbert. Monica, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
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C
Thank you guys for having me. I'm so happy to be here and can't wait to speak about motivational interviewing. Let's nerd out.
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B
Oh, good. How'd I do, though? Is it okay? I was, like, starting off.
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C
All right, I'll give you a B plus.
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B
Oh, okay. B plus.
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A
I'd give him a B minus.
- [02:23]
B
Okay, well, Yaniel, as the client in that. In that role play, Jackie, you. You are Correct. Well, Monica, we're very excited to talk about motivational interviewing. This is something that, for me, I found in actually, a classroom management book about a year and a half ago. It was a 2009 book by Reinke called Hold on. I wrote it down because it's got a long title. It's Motivational Interviewing for Effective Classroom Management. And I said, this is. This seems so cool. Do we. What. What more is there about motivational interviewing? Because it seemed like it came from maybe psychology, addiction studies. Right. And then all of a sudden, I heard. And we heard another colleague talking about it at a local event. And then out of the blue, an email came. I think you'd sent out an email from. From, like, your. From your company, from your work, about a new edition of your book on motivational interviewing. So I immediately snatched that up and read that whole. That whole book to learn more about it and was shocked at how much research there was on motivational interviewing and was a bit appalled that it had not gotten more headway into behavior analysis, especially since there was a whole article about motivational interviewing in 2009 in the behavior Analyst. So we're very excited to have the chance to get to talk to you more about it so people don't have to listen to my B B description of what it is. So I'd love to kind of just kick things off by hearing a little bit more about you, your background, and how you came to practice motivational interviewing.
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C
Sure, sure. So I was. When I became a bcba, These. This was, like, a couple years ago, I was a very passionate bcba, as a lot of us, you know, were. And I think that it happened to all of us once we. You become a bcba, you want to, like, conquer the world and. And, you know, throw data everywhere and then start telling parents and teachers and everyone how wonderful MI is. And I actually worked with a child in a school, and I was speaking with a teacher about it. She didn't understand, like, the token system. She didn't understand what she was doing wrong. And I'm like, well, you have to do this, and you have to use the right contingencies and all that. We even had, like, an IP meeting with. With a principal the next day. And I felt so proud of that session. The next day, the mom called me, and she was like, they don't want you back in that school. And I said, what? I am banned from my first school. What do you mean? And she's like, no. Like, she. You know, they thought you were rude, that you weren't really helpful. And I'm like, what do you mean I wasn't helpful? I. I showed them a graph, right. I took data. I just didn't get it. During that time, I was also doing my doctorate in clinical psychology, and I worked with substance use. When I worked with that population, my supervisors were very well versed in motivational interview, and they basically taught me everything I, I know. And, and I learned. And then I said, you know what? This is a missing piece in aba. This is like, what we're missing. I can't hear enough. SLPs and other type of professionals, like, they just don't like us, and it's just the way that we communicate. So I said, this is the missing piece. I'm going to start doing this. I did my dissertation in MI and aba. I started doing the trainings. I started doing webinars, wrote a book, Dead Cars, and now I have the, the podcast as well. And I've just been doing that. I've been speaking about motivational interviewing in the ABA field. What's your podcast? It's called Am I for Change?
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B
Which makes sense because that's.
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D
But not, like, that's the whole part of it. Not Mission Impossible, but you could, you know, you could play on that.
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B
Yeah, yeah. Every episode, Monica will just, like, come down from the ceiling, like, right over the microphone, please.
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C
I, I need some of that.
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B
And pivot to video. That's what all the studios are doing these days.
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A
That's hilarious.
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B
So, so Monica, you. You came from clinical psychology as well. So having that background in addiction studies, that, that, that kind of fills in the piece of, like, where did you hear about this cool new MI thing? Because that was, that's the basis of mi, right? It was, it was coming from addiction studies.
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C
Yeah. So it was, it was first developed by Miller, and later on it was kind of elaborated by Miller and Ronick. I actually met Miller this past month because I went. I became a Mintee, which is a MINT member. So now I'm part of, like, the training coalition of motivational interviewing. And I met him in person, which was really exciting.
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B
Nice.
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D
Yeah.
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B
When you said, I'm also bcba, did you go, I don't know what that is, or no idea.
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C
I mean, I led with, I'm from Miami. There's not a lot of people from Miami here. And he was, oh, yeah, I've been to Florida. But yeah, he had no idea what BCBA was.
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B
Okay. But he understood. He understood, like, the scope of your work, just not the, not the behavior analysis part of It. All right, so another example of something coming from another field. I know, I'm sure he's, he's talked about it. I feel like it gets hinted at like, in any, any book. Like, I know it was in the classroom management book, sort of like a, a quick snapshot of, of kind of the, the genesis of the process. But can you, can you talk a little bit about sort of the idea behind motivational interviewing? You know, within kind of that change model?
- [07:31]
C
Of course. So motivational interviewing, you are basically having a conversation about change. And it's not just with parents. Like, a lot of my trainings have been focused on parent coaching, but it's with parents, it's with staff, it's with RBT supervises, it's with anyone who is a little ambivalent. And the way that we define ambivalence is having simultaneous wants or needs about two things at the same time. So, so it's anyone that is ambivalent about something, and what you're doing is that you're not only connecting with them, but you're also directing them and helping them towards that change.
- [08:09]
B
Oh, excellent. I, I, I love that as a, as a sort of a just general descriptor of like, like the process. The goal is in, in mi. So we have certainly your book and, and we'll, you know, we'll have links to all of this in the podcast player. But your book was how to Stop talking and Start Communicating with Motivational Interviewing. And then it's got the colon, Building Effective Partnerships with Caregivers or Practical Guide for Behavior Therapists. But the first part, how to Stop Talking and Start Communicating with Motivational, that's the, that's, that's the fun title part.
- [08:35]
C
That's the very long name as well.
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B
So certainly we'll, we'll be, we'll be pulling from, you know, your professional knowledge and the knowledge that went into writing that book, which again, as behavior analysts, if you are interested in mi, I mean, you could do the classroom management way I went. But I think your book is a much more kind of cohesive view of MI itself in practice versus kind of the more very specific, like just talking to teachers just about classroom management, which again, I think was a fun way to get started, but did not tell me everything I needed to know, that's for sure. But we also had two, two articles one that you cited in the book that I, I, I am loving that article. And then the other that was sort of just a recent one in BAP that we'll kind of be you know, talking a little bit around because it does give kind of a nice, you know, snapshot overview of MI for behavior analysts. But D. What are the other articles that we'll be discussing a little bit today in our conversation?
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D
For sure. So there, as you alluded, there are two other articles that we can discuss. One is the OG article here in Behavior Analysis titled A Behavior Analytic Account of Motivational Interviewing by Christopher and Doer. And that was in The Behavior Analyst 2009. Also creating a therapeutic alliance with Caregivers, An Introduction to Motivational Interviewing by Platner and Anderson. And that was in Behavior analysis and practice 2024.
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B
So, Monica, one of the things that I thought that article did a good job in was sort of, you know, going over some of the context of MI as part of a change process. Though I do think it's sort of seem to focus a bit more just on like, a therapeutic alliance goal, which I know is a part of mi, but I don't know. The way I've read it is sort of. It's more like a. A component of building the therapeutic rapport. Building the therapeutic alliance. The goal of MI is not just to have a good rapport. You talk a lot in. In your book, and I know Doer and Christopher talk about, like, a model of change. Could you go over. I know that that might feel a little too psycho psychological to some of the listeners, but. But I do like the model of change, and I think it's important to. To be able to hear about it a little bit.
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D
I think you can handle it.
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B
Can you make it? You're gonna make it to Diana. Okay.
- [10:53]
C
So I. I think so. Christopher. That article was the first one that I read, and I absolutely loved it because it conceptualized a lot of these, you know, terms and motivational interviewing into ABA terms. So that. That was a great bridge in our field, you know, with MI and also aba this other article by Platner. So it's more, you know, that's what the title says. It's more on the alliance. And I think it spoke a lot about the challenges that we face as BCBAs. A lot of the, you know, like, lack of compassion that some parents report or lack of listening or not communicating effectively. So all of these things. And then it proposes motivational interviewing as a type of, like, fix or a type of, like, you know, that. That thing, that missing piece that we truly have. What I find in my criticism on a lot of these things is that I think that a myth of motivational interviewing is that it's just about connection. And that makes it feel very fluffy. But it is true. It's about connection. But then the next step, as I mentioned, is direction. So it's connection and direction. If you're just connecting with parents, if you're just connecting with your rbt, that's great. You guys are going to have a great relationship. But that doesn't mean you're going anywhere. And that's not what we want. We want behavior change. And that's one of the similarities that motivational interviewing has with ABA is that we want to see that behavior change. And that's absolutely okay. But that takes a lot more skills to be able to use the OARS and all these other kind of like micro skills and MI to really see that behavior change.
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B
And I think, I can't remember if it was in your book or one of the resources you cited, but there's sort of that circle or some of the other resource. The idea of, you know, like pre change, you know, when I'm not actually going to change, which I don't know why that gets the name pre change feels like the wrong name. And then there's like that period of thinking about change and then you're actually going to change. Do you kind of use. Do you use that model specifically? There's some fancy name for it that I'm sure.
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C
Are you referring to the trans. Theoretical model of change?
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B
Yes, that's it.
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C
That is such an easy name. Why couldn't you remember that? You know, just rolls off your tongue.
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A
I wish, I wish that the listeners could see both Diana and I, our faces were like when you said it.
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D
Well, when you said pre change, I thought you said preaching. I was like, sure, that's what I heard as well.
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C
And I was thinking back, I was like, I don't think you, you read that in my book.
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B
No, no, no. Your book's not about. I mean, I suppose I probably don't want to change very much if all, all everyone around me, they're just preaching at me. I might be in the pre change mode too of like, get off my back. I'm not changing anytime soon.
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C
Yeah, yeah.
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B
But within, within that kind of that, that, that. That sort of cycle, you have MI sort of serving the role of using those, like you said, those micro skills and with a goal towards increasing the amount of change talk.
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C
Yes.
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B
Can. Can you speak a little bit more about kind of like what. What's. What is change talk versus non change talk?
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C
Yeah. So change talk or any vocalizations towards change. So there's a Nice acronym in motivation interviewing, which is a darn cat, which speaks about, like, the different categories. Yeah, Darn cut. Different categories of change talk. And studies have shown that the more people speak about change, the more likely they are to change their behavior. So we want to get more change talk during our sessions. And I'm going to try this with you, Robert. Let's see if, let's see if we can. I can evoke some change talk. Okay, so tell me a behavior you want to change. Any behavior.
- [14:23]
B
Ah, geez Louise. I thing.
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C
What about nail biting?
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B
I don't bite my nails. No, I, Yeah, you know what I, I do. I kind of pick at my, at the sides of my fingers. I get, like, hang nails, and then.
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C
I do that too. Okay, good. I'm not the only one. Okay, so biting the sides of your fingers. Okay, so from 1 to 10. 10. Being totally ready and, you know, totally confident in, in stopping this habit of biting, you know, the size of your nails. From 1 to 10, what number would you give it?
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B
In terms of my readiness to change?
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C
Yeah.
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B
Ooh, I don't know. I mean, I kind of like doing it. It doesn't feel like it's that big. I don't know. I'm gonna say like a two. I, I don't think I'm ready. I'm way in pre. I'm in pre. Pre change.
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C
Okay.
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D
Okay.
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C
Don't worry.
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D
We'll.
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C
We'll get you there. So you mentioned, too, why not a lower number in terms of how ready you are to start changing this habit?
- [15:13]
B
Why didn't I go lower? I mean, I didn't, you know, I, I, I guess. I know it's not always great, especially with winter coming. You know, we're up in New England. Like, I know it's going to lead to, like, bleeding all over my hands, and then that's gross. It's not safe. It's unhygienic. You know, I work with a lot of other people. I don't want to be, like, shaking hands or constantly in fear that I'm going to, you know, cause some sort of OSHA violation with. Just because I had to, you know, picked up my nails a bit.
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D
Okay.
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C
That escalated very quickly. Okay, so guess what? You just engage in change talk.
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B
Oh, I did.
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D
You did?
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C
Yeah.
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B
I'm cured. Thanks, Doc.
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C
You told me all the reasons why you, why you would like to possibly stop biting the sides of your nails. You said, you know, you know, it's not great. You don't want to bleed all over people. OSHA violations all those things are going to be gross in front of people, right? So all of that is called change talk. So a simple question was able to evoke that change talk. And that's what we want to see. We want to get more change talk during our sessions versus a sustained talk, which is the opposite.
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B
Okay, so if I've been sort of like, I don't know, it doesn't matter. I can wear gloves. I don't need to. Like, I think it's fun. If people have a problem with it, they can, you know, go pound sand. That would be.
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C
Yeah, but with that question, you wouldn't have said that. You wouldn't have responded that way with that question. So again, it's about asking the right questions.
- [16:28]
B
Okay, excellent. All right. Now, I know, you know, you mentioned the darn. The Darn CAT acronym, which. Which again stands. I have a hard time with my mi. That's why I'm maybe only a B M I student right now, is I have trouble with the acronyms.
- [16:42]
C
So the, the important thing about the Darn CAT because I think that people get too stuck on the acronyms. And which one goes where I think overall is just getting a, you know, when someone communicates about a desire to change or wanting to change, those are all important. And then when they actually say things like, okay, now I'm committed to change, or I'm going to start doing this, maybe in your case, with biting nails, I'm going to start, I don't know, putting on these, the, you know, the clear nail. Nail polishes. That. That seems bad because that's an intervention. So those are clearly more towards that change. So we have preparatory and we have actually, like, action statements that will get us to the change part.
- [17:23]
B
And the reason you would use an MI situation for sort of my, you know, my, my nail situation would be because there'd be a fear that if you just told me, hey, Rob, if this is a problem for you, here's the stuff you can put on. Just put this on and it'll go away. The problem is that I haven't actually, while I'm in your office, like, I've come. I've come, you know, putatively to change. There's less chance I'll change. Correct. Like, and there's a lot of research to support sort of that being told what to do versus having enough change talk and then deciding to, to do. Right.
- [17:56]
C
Yeah. And. And I think something else that's important because, you know, you. We shouldn't just be using these techniques to manipulate others to Doing what we want them to do. So I don't want you to stop biting the sides of your nails, because that's what I want. I want to arrive to a point where I want to see if that's what you want. Like, is this something that's interesting to you? And that's when the spirit of motivational interviewing comes in, and it's sort of like an autoclitic, right? Like, it depends how we're asking these questions. And. And really, the spirit of motivational interviewing starts with. So another acronym is pace. So partnership. We have to establish a collaboration, a partnership. We have to be working together, not a hierarchy model. Also, acceptance of autonomy. At the end of the day, Rob, you're going to do whatever you want. You're going to either continue to bite your nails or not. So even seeing that in the session, I think is empowering because it really rests on you. It's your autonomy. It all depends on you. Compassion, understanding where you're coming from, understanding that it has benefits to you. That's why people are stuck, because the behavior that they're engaging in has those benefits to a parent who is reinforcing these maladaptive behaviors. Well, there's benefits to that, too. They're not dealing with it at the moment. And then just this last part, which I think is the most important part and sometimes we forget to do, is evoking those solutions from you. So, for example, for your. Your nail biting, and I'm sorry that we have to circle back to that, but I would ask you, what are some. What are some techniques you've used in the past? What are some things that you think would work if you were to start stop biting your nails?
- [19:28]
B
Well, you know, if I got some of that, like, Canadian thumb sucking chemical that tastes really bad, I could probably, you know, do that. But sometimes I'll use my hands, so I suppose it would be. I could do. So I could put something else in my hands. I could put my hands in my pockets when I'm noticing I'm starting to pick at things. I'm sure there's some other one. Yeah, those are. Those. Those might be some strategies that could work.
- [19:48]
C
Sounds like you have a lot of good interventions. When do you think would be a good time for you to start doing this?
- [19:53]
B
I could probably do it while we're recording a podcast episode, actually, because my hands are relatively free, but that means I'm probably going to pick at them. So I could. I could, you know, make the smart face listeners. You can't see I'm Making the. The smart. The thinker, you know, so that's one hand sort of busy and then the other one I kind of just, you know, put down on my hand and sort of just leave it there and let it relax, you know, so I could do that right now.
- [20:16]
C
That's such a good idea. I can't wait to hear how it went during our next session.
- [20:21]
B
Okay. That was. Wow, that's pretty effect pretty effective stuff. Monica. Very good. I didn't have to do a co pay either. I'm really excited.
- [20:30]
C
No, this is all free for now. Next session it will require something.
- [20:33]
B
Oh, that's, that's how you get the first one's for. Yeah, so. So Monica, I know there, there's some other acronyms and, and certainly when. And I don't know if you'd recommend this, say for folks who are either new or behavior analysts who sort of are not working in say a therapeutic clinical setting and they are looking to use some of the motivational interviewing techniques to improve their rapport or to increase change. Talk around like very specific goals. Like I said, I learned it in the context of that classroom management, you know, helping teachers understand how to look at their data around classroom management. Change talk around doing something different rather than just, I don't know, I. I need an individual plan for every kid. And they used ORS as an acronym. Came up a lot. Where does that sort of fall in the hierarchy of, of acronyms? It's a skill. It's a, it's a concept.
- [21:19]
D
Can you remind us what oars.
- [21:21]
C
Yes.
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D
Dance for?
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B
Can I can.
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D
Well, someone.
- [21:24]
B
I mean we, we can let our guests do it. But I think I can still. I remember that one pretty good.
- [21:28]
C
So O is for open ended questions. So as opposed to close ended questions. Open ended questions allow us to get more elaboration. So it's sort of like a mand. If you look at it. Tax. We're either either sorry, tax or is affirmations. So affirmations are more of those condition reinforcers. And then the reflections is. We're reflecting back what the client is saying, what the person is telling us. And sometimes we're highlighting keywords towards change. That's when we get better at using reflections and we're able to do that. And that can function as like a tact or a mand. And then we have summarization. And then lastly, you'll see this in some of the newer motivational interviewing literature. There's a plus I. So that plus I is information exchange.
- [22:12]
D
Oh, it doesn't really fit in with the acronym or.
- [22:15]
C
Plus I. Ors.
- [22:17]
D
Plus I. Yeah. So Rob was. I will toot your horn, Rob. Rob was giving a talk at our conference up here not too long ago. And I don't know the title of your talk, but it was something about probably classroom management.
- [22:28]
B
Rob, Smart talk.
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D
Yeah, yeah. And I was in a different talk with. And I wanted to come see and support him. And so I came in at the very end, the last few minutes, and guess what was up on the screen? A rowboat with. With oars. And he was talking about oars. Yeah. So good job, Rob.
- [22:47]
B
Thank you. Thank you. This is the best podcast ever. I'm getting, you know, problems cured. I'm getting compliments. That's great. Wow. So, Monica, I. I do. And I sort of heard you say this when you were talking about the acronyms, like, don't get hung up on the acronyms. When one is sort of learning to do motivational interviewing, I think from like a clinical psychological or clinical psychology perspective or a social work perspective or a therapy perspective, I'd assume that the focus really is on sort of listening and responding to the client, you know, and sort of deciding which of these kind of communication techniques. Is it time for the conditional reinforcer that comes from the affirmation? Is it time for the mand. In terms of the open ended question, how does one go about sort of figuring out which of those and then within that, you know, you've got your. I think you even said it for the reflections. There's like so many charts. I think your book has sort of different ways to do reflect. Like there's not just a reflection of. Huh, that sounds interesting. Or tell me, you know, there's all these. I'm going to accentuate the point you just made or I'm going to take it to an extreme or I'm going to, you know, do a different, like, complex reflection. How do you keep all of these different possible avenues? You know, I almost felt like a flowchart, but it feels like it would be an infinite flowchart of things you could say that circles back on itself.
- [24:06]
C
Yeah. So I would say for those of you who are listening in, and this is completely new to you, I would focus on. On the staircase, which we call it a staircase, but it's the four processes of motivational interviewing. So these are engaging, focusing, evoking, and planning. And this is like the different phases or the different processes that we go into during our conversations with that RBT or with that parent. So first it's building Rapport. The same way that when we first start working with the kiddo, we don't just go in there with the intervention. We have to establish ourselves, we have to gain baseline, we have to do all those things. So when we're working with that parent or with that other person, we have to engage. And when we're using the auras, which the auras are kind of like, think about them like the skills or the tools that you have in your toolbox. So you're going up the stairs with the tools in your toolbox and you're using different types of tools as you go through the different stair steps. So when you're engaging, the open ended questions are going to be different. Here we are drawing out curiosity where we're trying to understand, we're trying to get that verbal baseline from, from that person that we're working with. When we're focusing, we have to agree on a goal. We have to make sure that we are working on the same thing. What are these person, this person's value? Do they, you know, are they congruent with what I want to change? And then evoking, we are drawing out the solution from that other person. And then lastly planning is when we are actually coming up with a plan. A plan that we're going to use together. So think about it like that. We're going through the staircase, we have our tools and then we always take our spirit with us. Our spirit is always with us.
- [25:59]
A
Hi. Do you want to be a bcba, also known as a Board Certified Behavior Analyst?
- [26:04]
D
Sure, we all do.
- [26:06]
A
Now you can come to Regis College in Weston, Massachusetts to get your graduate degree just minutes outside of Boston.
- [26:13]
D
Choose from any one of these Masters.
- [26:15]
A
Of Science in Applied Behavior Analysis, Master.
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D
Of Science in Special Education, dual degree in Special Ed and aba.
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A
Or be eligible for your Postmaster certificate.
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D
You can complete your degree and be ready to sit for the exam in two years.
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A
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D
Come enjoy approved fieldwork placements, ethics, mini handbooks, PhD levels, professors, small class sizes and a service trip to Iceland if interested.
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A
And don't forget, our program is accredited by the association of Behavior Analysis International or ABAI as a Tier 1 master's degree program.
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D
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A
Learn more@regiscollege.edu Again, that's www.regiscollege.edu regiscollege.edu. one more time www.regiscollege.edu See you there.
- [27:17]
B
Hey everybody. So sorry to pause the show while they're in the middle of a conversation. But we do have to do that to tell you a couple key things, including how you can get CES for listening to this podcast. One learning ce to be exact. All you need to do is finish listening to the show, then go to our website abainsidetrack.com or click the link in your podcast player. You need to enter in some key information about the show, including two secret code words courtesy of our guest, Dr. Monica Gilbert. And the first of those code words is Dexter. D, E, X T E R. Dexter. Now, you may be saying, oh, is Dr. Gilbert a fan of the TV show Dexter? Or that old cartoon Dexter's Laboratory? And we didn't actually ask if she was that big a fan of either of those things, but Dexter was the name of her dog, which is always.
- [28:03]
D
It was a cat.
- [28:03]
B
Oh, sorry. It was a cat. Sorry, Wrong animal, Wrong house.
- [28:06]
D
Think cat.
- [28:07]
B
Well, it was.
- [28:08]
D
Now I'm unsure.
- [28:09]
B
Let's say house pet just to cover all the bases. But we always do love when our guests share about their, their furry friends. So that code word is Dexter.
- [28:17]
D
I think it was Dexter's laboratory.
- [28:18]
B
Oh, it's the laboratory.
- [28:20]
D
Yes.
- [28:21]
B
Okay, and now back to the show. So, Monica, when it comes to kind of building that rapport, like some of this, I think, you know, even folks who is like, this is the first time they've ever heard mi, I'm hoping they're getting that sense of like, oh, these feel like just, you know, great ways to get started, you know, fighting the, fighting. The writing reflex, I think is, is a term I know I've seen in some of the work, which it's got to be so hard for behavior analysts because it's like our strongest muscle is. Let me tell you what the answer is. I get humans better than anybody, right? So I hopefully that's feeling, feeling very, very appetitive to sort of think of some of these, these techniques. When you think of mi, though, do you mean, do you see it as something that is just another example of how behavior, you know, behavior analysis can be applied? Do you see it as a separate set of methodologies that's complementary to sort of work in aba? Like, how do you conceptualize in that way, sort of in the actions, the moment to moment?
- [29:20]
C
Yeah, so you mentioned something and I thought it was interesting. I think for behavior analysts actually are our muscle, our biggest muscle is that we are analytical. And that is what we're using in motivational interviewing as well. We're using those exact, exact same skills. So I think it has to be integrated into the work that we do. This is not like a separate thing, because we're talking, we're speaking, right? We're communicating. So it has to be integrated. And I think it should have started there. We should have integrated this a long time ago. And I can't wait to see it, like, in. Well, I'll kind of say. I can't really say, like, what book it is or what, you know, what publisher it is, but they asked me a couple of months ago to publish or to help publish in one of the textbooks, just a piece on motivational interviewing and ABA for, you know, for a major publisher. And I was like, wow, first of all, when they send me that email, I'll share that. I put it through ChatGPT and I said, is this a scam?
- [30:22]
D
Is this a scam? Or is this like.
- [30:24]
C
And, you know, ChatGPT was like, no, it's, you know, whatever. And I was like, absolutely, I'll do this, you know, but I was so excited to see that, you know, in universities, and it's going to be out there. So definitely it has to be integrated in the work that we do.
- [30:39]
B
You know, I. I think, Monica, congrats on that. I'm glad that we're going to be getting more MI in aba. And I guess it leads to kind of another question, you know, so. So the Christopher in our article at the end, you know, their last sentences are sort of like, wow, MI sure is great. I can't wait to see what ABA does with it, studying it in the future. And it's crickets from, like, 2009 till, what, 15 years? Yeah. Why. Why do you think? And I know this is sort of, you know, a hypothetical, but, you know, I'm sure you've talked to other folks in the, in the field about this. Maybe you've talked to behavior analysts who weren't as happy with the idea of. Of utilizing MI techniques. But, I mean, why the delay? Why wait and sit on this as something that we could have been using and getting better at and kind of shedding that image of. Of know it being know it alls that, you know, get kicked? I. I've. I've been in that same boat, you know, your. Your story. I've. I've lived that story, too. It's. It's. It's bad. It's un. It's unpleasant to be in that situation.
- [31:37]
D
Yeah.
- [31:38]
C
And I'm sorry, Christopher and doer, if you're listening to this podcast, what I'm going to say, you know, I'M sorry for it, but I think they. They didn't market it well, and. And it just kind of stayed there. I think in our field, too, it's always been about, like, data and, and, you know, empirical research. And this was more of like a. It was a. Like a lit review, a conceptualization kind of thing. So it was more of this. This qualitative study. So I think that behavior analysts have always been a little turned off from that, and they want to see, like, the data. They want to see, like, you know, the actual graphs and things like that. But I think they. Their intention was good. They saw something, but it was just left there and then. But. But that's okay because I picked it up where they left it, and I was like, I'm going to market the heck out of it. Because, first of all, I know that this is needed, and I just love, you know, sharing this because I see the difference that it makes now when.
- [32:30]
B
It comes to the idea of sort of starting to roll it out more with behavior analysts, I mean, I'm guessing there's going to be people like me who just kind of came about it sideways or people, you know, like. Like you came about it, you know, having a different background in, you know, psychology as well as in behavior analysis, so you just had more exposure to it. I mean, where do you see kind of am I disseminating more? I mean, you're going to have a chapter in a textbook, so maybe it's going to be part of classwork going forward. I mean, but do you see that change coming in the near future, the far future? And if so, like, what. What will it look like? Like, how will people start being introduced to mi or what. What would you recommend for people being introduced to mi?
- [33:09]
C
I think research. Research is. Is what speaks to all of us. And I know that there's a lot of research articles that are. That are now being done with using, like, BTS and like, you know, motivational interviewing and using it in schools, and there's tons of research outside of the ABA worlds. But now we're starting to do more research in the ABA world, which is really exciting. It will probably also start, you know, in conferences, for example. I've been to a bunch of different conferences where I've had that talk, and that's something that's happening as well, and, and hopefully integrated into these master programs, because I think it's. It's needed when students graduate, they need to know how to speak, how to communicate more effectively.
- [33:52]
B
Mm. Now, I know we talked a little bit about the idea of just thinking of MI as like a trick to get parents to like you, to get teams to like you, your client to like you. What would you say for like the average behavior analyst? I mean, is MI a skill that I, I'm guessing not everyone's going to be able to go through like a full MI certification process to, you know, kind of become that level of clinician using mi. I mean, are there specific skills within MI that you see as kernels that any behavior analyst with some training and supervision could start using within their practice, like relatively quickly start seeing and promoting that change?
- [34:30]
C
Absolutely. The first thing is that you don't want it to sound fake. So it's not like you want to pick up these tools and be like, I'm going to use the reflection today. And then it sounds all odd and, and you don't want that to happen because then it goes against everything that we've spoken about. So I think the, you know, if you practice it, then it becomes part of your conversations and, and it just becomes part of you. But obviously consultations are important supervision. This is not just something that you, that you listen to a podcast or see a webinar and you start using and you're like, wow, now I can use it. Well, there, there's going to be a lot of challenges. So that is important getting like, you know, that ongoing supervision or that ongoing consultation with these skills.
- [35:13]
B
And, and I, I, that's probably going to have to require some level of collaborative supervision because we don't have a lot of behavior analysts who are, you know, amazing at that. And I'm guessing you don't want everyone to email you right after this podcast because there's only so much time in the day.
- [35:28]
C
Well, I'm, I'm open to that. Email me. You know, email away. I, I also have to say, like, there's, I offer these courses. I, I offer, you know, I have the podcast, the book, the deck cards that I also like, the cheat sheets that cards that they just developed. But there's also other people in other fields that are using motivational interviewing. So even if they're not speaking the ABA language, you can definitely use a lot of these things and learn from them.
- [35:55]
B
All right, so there's going to be a lot of opportunities for folks who are interested to learn and then get additional training, which is always important for any new skill.
- [36:03]
A
Can I ask a question quickly?
- [36:06]
B
Of course, I guess you can. It's only if it's an open ended question.
- [36:09]
D
It is.
- [36:10]
A
And so, and this is. Wasn't one we gave you. But I wonder if you've ever experienced what happens when people do motivational interviewing badly.
- [36:18]
C
Like, hmm, badly. So what do you mean? Like, I mean, I'm thinking there's different ways of doing it badly. Like they just do it and they're not, they're just using the right.
- [36:29]
A
They're just using the skills. But they're not genuine. They're not like present. Right. So I'm thinking as a graduate school professor, right, I could teach people how to do this. I could teach them the skills, but I can't. But it's harder to like insert person in and so like have you had an experience where people are doing it but not well?
- [36:52]
C
Yeah, I mean, me, when I started using these skills, I sucked. When I started using these skills, I'm like, oh, I'm just going to use this very like, you know, script. Yeah, I'm going to use it as a script. And it was so odd. And the client saw it as well. And after we gained more rapport, she was even like, hey, in the beginning I didn't think you were going to be a good match with me because, you know, I don't know, you just seemed very unnatural. And I was like, oh, okay. So I think whenever you start using something new, it is going to be a little odd. But again, I had great supervisors during that time and they helped me through it and, and it really made the difference.
- [37:31]
B
It definitely feels like the sort of thing that, especially if you're, you know, like I'm a school based bcba, so I would be using this in the context of working with families, working with teachers, but I also work with older students. So certainly some, some older students, you know, who are able to sort of talk about challenges they're having in school. And I feel like this could be a place for communities of practice to really be a big help of, hey, let's talk kind of like we did at the beginning. I'm going to try to talk and, and then can you give me like a buzz sound if I start asking closed ended questions or if my reflections are just way off base Reflections feels like the hardest of of the open ended questions. I think once you get the hang of it doesn't seem that tricky, the reflections and just how many styles of reflection and when to use each reflection. Margaret, do you mind talking a little bit about some of the like, I know in your book you've got like the whole, the whole chart and you have all sorts of, lots of examples, which is always helpful in A book where you're learning a new skill of like, what does this actually look like? So thank you.
- [38:28]
C
Yeah, so I've actually, every time that I go to a conference or I do a webinar, I always ask the participants, I'm like, which of these do you find to be more challenging? Because I want to take my data too, and believe it or not, they say affirmations. So reflections. Some people say reflections and then they see affirmations. And I'm like, but aren't you guys all behavior analysts? Like, isn't this what we do? Don't we give like, you know, positive reinforcement? And I asked a participant one time and she was like, yeah, it's just that it doesn't sound genuine. Like, I feel like I'm going to be like, wow, parents, you did a good job. And I said, well, if you say like that, yeah, it's going to be a little odd, so don't say it like that. But going back to your question about reflection, so I would say that reflections are like the key point and it's the one that is the most difficult for behavior analysts that don't have a background in counseling because it's a very like psychological kind of thing where we're reflecting exactly what the person is saying. And yes, there are complex reflections and there are simple reflections. So complex reflections, we're saying things like, for example, let's say there's a parent that tells you something like, well, I see this intervention and I know that it works, but whenever I go to target, I don't use it because other people judge me. So I would say something like, on one hand you're saying that you don't want to use the intervention because you feel a judge, and on the other hand, you find value in this intervention and perhaps you would want to learn how to go and use it without feeling that sense of being judged there. That's it. Right? So here we're using a double sided reflections. We're highlighting the challenge, and then we're also highlighting the statement or conversation towards that change. Then we have the amplified reflections. And then we can also use reflection open ended question to soft and sustain talk that is like, I mean, this is like the second level to motivational interviewing. This is where we actually start seeing, moving towards that change, where we are softening sustained talk and we want to elaborate or strengthen more of that change talk.
- [40:30]
D
Huh?
- [40:31]
B
Okay, so I.
- [40:32]
D
So what I hear you saying.
- [40:37]
C
No, I love that.
- [40:40]
B
Okay, so when it comes to sort of like thinking about the skills, some of it is going to be, you know, for folks who, like many, many BCBAs, who do not have a background in clinical. Sorry, in counseling, psychology and counseling at all, or social work is probably going to sound more robotic because we're sort of probably going to be treating it almost like a chain or like, what's the SD for? Which reflection skill should I use right now? Which is probably going to sound kind of fakey or am I overthinking it?
- [41:09]
C
Yeah. So I think it's also like your focus. The focus shouldn't be in what technique am I going to use. The focus should be and how am I moving them towards that change. So you have to have like a. It's sort of like a thermometer of change in the back of your mind. And then you're slightly slowly. It's like if you're dancing right, little by little, you're helping them move towards that change. So it doesn't really matter what technique you use as long as you are able to guide them and help them and work together with them to, to get to that change.
- [41:44]
B
You're either hearing more change talk or you're hearing more sustained talk. And depending on, on, on which way you're going, you're reflecting and thinking about, you know, how you want to be responding to what you're hearing. The, the client say, okay, that's. That sounds much better than, you know, I need a TA for how I'm going to do motivational interviewing with the client tomorrow, which I'm guessing will sound fake.
- [42:05]
D
Yeah, right. It seems like authenticity is, is pretty key. Yeah.
- [42:09]
C
And I think that that's key in every conversation with human beings. And nowadays people are looking for that. There's so much, like, fake stuff out there that people are obsessed with real. So now more than ever, we want to see the, you know, the authentic self come out.
- [42:26]
D
So I love that.
- [42:27]
B
I like. Yeah, the authentic self.
- [42:29]
D
I think that's why maybe people listen to our show because what are you talking about?
- [42:33]
B
We're very, we're clearly always ourselves.
- [42:35]
D
Yeah, we're very much always, always ourselves. So in, in you, in using mi, is it is the idea that you're helping parents sort of find what are going to be appropriate goals and targets? So is it something that you see at the beginning of the process or is it maybe that plus how. How everything is going and helping, like parents identify their, their own goals for themselves, themselves too? Is it both pieces?
- [43:05]
C
So the easiest way to think about it is when you're working with that parent, the client has to be the parent. Because if you think about the client as being the child, it's just. It's going to be hard. So think about that parent as being your client. And really, when we are working, like with commercial insurance or whatever it is, when we're billing those CPT codes, and it's that your client is the parent without the child being present. So if we focus on the parent being our client, then it allows us to build more of that collaboration and we're working on. Yes. Their goals.
- [43:43]
D
Yeah. Okay. That makes a ton of sense. I love that. I think that our field needs a lot more focus on that. So, you know, like, my. My background is in EI and ndbi. And when you do comparisons across varying types of NDBI options, such as, you know, PRT and, you know, pivotal response training and all, all sorts of other options out there, rdi, you know, I feel like sort of traditional ei, as we might do it, EIBI, has the least focus on parent intervention. Right. And parent interaction with the child. And that is an absolutely critical component when you look across these varied options. And so that is a really important piece. And in doing early intervention work, I got to see what that really looked like. Those types of wraparound services that were provided by early intervention and the ways in which all the varied providers interacted with parents was so informative to me. I learned so much about how we should be supporting families through that model, but I. You don't always see that in. Across ABA intervention. Right. It's like kind of a missing piece, I think. So if this could be a useful component to help help clinicians get into that type of relationship with families and recognizing it's not just the child, it's the whole family. Right. That's our client, then this could be really well utilized, I think, across the board.
- [45:13]
C
Absolutely. And we've spoken a lot about why this helps our clients. We haven't spoken enough about why it helps us as behavior analysts, but it really does. We carry a lot on our shoulders. We have to train, we have to supervise, we have to create. We have to do all these things. That's why a lot of behavior analysts are getting burnt out. And we know this. You're getting burnt out. I had a friend a couple years ago that was like, I'm gonna start. I'm gonna get into gardening, and I'm gonna leave the field of behavior analysis. And I was like, you're gonna get into, like, planting like that. That's what you're gonna do. But anyways, Right. So we don't want to see that. And a lot of the times is because we are doing all the work, we are putting all of our efforts, we're getting frustrated and that's what leads to burnout. So instead of doing that, when we're working with, with parents, hey, we're giving them their part of the responsibility and we're doing our part. But that, that's it. It's. It's equal. So we don't feel as burnt out. So this is also for us. So this also helps us.
- [46:11]
B
Yeah, I love that kind of encapsulation of using MI as kind of making that more collaborative, making that more team approach. And you mentioned sort of adding the information seeking to ors or that's coming out more that plus I part. And I know in terms of when I was first learning about MI through the idea of classroom management, it really was this sense of you want a lot of change talk. Because at some point in the change talk, the teacher will either come up with the solution themselves. Because sometimes the solutions are as simple as, you know, I haven't told Johnny that I love how well he's working on certain things. I'm just complaining about how he won't sit still all the time. Right. Sometimes they come up with it. Sometimes though, they're like, you know what? I do want to do something different. Do you have any ideas? And that really clicked for me as a behavior analyst who wants to be collaborative. Because now rather than here I am, let me tell you the great ideas and then you pick the one that sounds maybe easiest or maybe like, I'll help you the most with, or maybe I'm subtly influencing which one you're going to pick. It really gets to be, I am here to tell you, an expert on what you do, just some other stuff that you might not have learned. Then we can decide together what it is that's going to make the most sense for your context, for the challenge you're having. And I thought that was a real game changer because I think when we talk about collaboration so much in our field and the ethical responsibility of collaborating, it really does feel like we're collaborating in the sense of like, listen, let me convince you, what's it going to take to get you and your family into this token economy system, you know?
- [47:46]
C
Yeah. And my. So when I first started doing these webinars, it used to be called, like getting buy in from parents. And of course everyone was like, oh my gosh, I want to go to that webinar and Then I was like, you know what? That doesn't really like encompass or like what, what I'm trying to say or what I'm trying to put out there. So now it's more about engaging and getting buy in. But yes, when I started with the buy in out there, everyone was like getting my webinars and they're like, I want to know this stuff, like, how do we get there? But it's really about that, like collaborative piece. And even since you mentioned the evoking, when we are working with rbts as well, we may think like, oh, they have no idea, right? Well, they do. They're the ones that work with the kids most of the time.
- [48:27]
D
Absolutely.
- [48:28]
C
I tell a lot of my supervisors that I do the oversight for and I tell them, why don't you ask that RBT if they have any solutions? Like, ask them what their solutions are. Ask them what interventions do you think work best? And that way, hey, you're working less as well. You're having them work.
- [48:46]
D
Valuable experiences as well for our own. You're right. They know. They know the clients better than anyone.
- [48:53]
B
And you know, talk about acceptance. Behavior analysts, when you do the first time, you do like ask the rbt, you know, so what do you think might be. It is a little scary because you feel like, oh my God, I'm supposed to have all the answers. I'm not telling them. I. So you just have to sit back and be. Be uncomfortable. The idea that someone might come up with an idea that not the one you had. And it's okay.
- [49:11]
C
It's a very humbling experience. Right.
- [49:15]
B
So, I mean, I, I am, I'm really hopeful, Monica, that everyone is listening. They are at least seeing like this MI seems like something I want to look into. Maybe they're not quite sure, like which of these skills do I care the most about? Maybe they're not sure if it's anything other than just a good way to build rapport. But for those out there who say this sounds like so much just psychobabble gobbledygook, do you mind doing very. And I know you go over it, you have a whole chapter on it in the book. The Christopher Doer article, I think does also a really, you know, succinct job of describing it. But do you mind giving us the behavior analytic explanation, at least hypothetically, as to why all of this matters? Like, why am I quote, unquote, works in terms of like verbal behavior.
- [50:02]
C
So again, it's all based around these autoclytics and they all change the way that the other person is hearing the information that we are conveying. It's also, you know, I think it has a lot of empirical basis, just like ABA does is very goal oriented. And I did develop like a definition. Now I can't remember because it's written down and it's very long, to be honest with you. But it was something along the terms of like, motivational interviewing is a directive approach that focuses on change talk and in some way uses differentially reinforcing techniques. Because what we're doing is that we're putting more attention on the change, on the change talk, and we're putting the sustained talk on extinction. So that is sort of like the technique that we're using.
- [50:51]
B
And I think you did a very nice job describing it again in the book. Like you said, it is a lot like if you're someone who, when you hear derived relations or like, nope, actually not. Maybe you just want to take everyone's word for it that MI is really great. You should try it out. But there is a lot to be said. And I know, especially the Christopher and the Doer article, the idea of when they talk about. I think they talk about therapy as. And I think you mentioned it's sort of. It's. It's about how am I reinforcing certain types of talk or certain types of behavior. I'm bringing certain stimuli into the present moment rather than the future or the past. I'm. I'm, you know, differential, like you said, differential reinforce. I feel like that opened up therapy. The idea of therapy, you know, learning about MI and then learning about, like, oh my God, this all works. It all makes sense now. Like unifying theory of mental health.
- [51:43]
C
Well, if we know. And as a true behavior analyst, I mean, I have, you know, I'm a clinical psychologist as well, but I always say I have aba, my veins. That that's where. That I'm. That that's my. Where my heart is. But as a true behavior analyst, I think that we can all agree that we can explain like most of the things in the world in behavior analytical terms, you know, because it does work. I mean, it's all contingencies and all these things. And for example, something like therapy. Therapy works. Is effective, but nobody explains why it works or how it. It works in behavioral analytical terms. So it's just learning how to tweak it a little bit. So we're able to explain how effective it is. But the studies don't lie. I mean, it is, you know, effective.
- [52:24]
B
Yeah, well, I think we've Done a lot. We have a lot, you know, overviewed a lot. We're not going to get into every detail of MI and you know, the hour or so we have. So why don't we move into the last, the next section of the show, the dissemination station. Oh, we're here. Hooray. So, Monica, I know we mentioned a few of, we kind of talked about some of the things, you know, how we can use mi, what kind of next steps would be. I'd love to hear your thoughts on where do you see MI going into, into ABA in the next like five, six years? I mean, are, are you optimistic that it's going to be. Start being in grad classes? That people are going to be trying to get more, you know, continuing education around it? Like what do, what do you see as kind of the future in our field?
- [53:07]
C
So not only am I optimistic, but I want to give that a push. I do want to push it towards that direction because again, I believe this like wholeheartedly, that this is what we're missing in our field and this is what we need. So I will do my best in pushing it out there. And those who listen to me, I hope you disseminate it as well and you help me with it because it is something that I think will, will make a lot of the wonderful things that we're doing, like, more acceptable with others around us if we learn how to communicate more effectively.
- [53:40]
B
And if you had something that you sort of want to see from a research basis. So let's, so you know, let's. Yeah, let's go for it. MI and ABA or best friends from here on out, we're starting to see more research in the area. What kind of are the big research questions that you still have around mi? And you know, is it, is it procedural? Is it outcome based?
- [54:00]
C
So how effective is it really with staff? We're getting not only buy in from staff but, but seeing from an OBM standpoint like, you know, is, is it increasing their, their effectiveness in their job rbts as well? Are they starting to take more data? Are they starting to engage in those interventions? So more of those empirical research. I think that that's what's needed in the field specifically more to ABA and mi.
- [54:27]
B
Excellent. And I'm guessing if there's some professors out there who are like, I will add this to my grad program, then you could get that great how to teach grad students MI techniques article out there too. Probably.
- [54:39]
C
Yeah.
- [54:40]
D
Pretty good idea, right?
- [54:41]
B
Pro tip.
- [54:41]
C
Yeah, it is a good idea.
- [54:43]
B
You read as Many articles, as we do for the show and you start to notice a pattern. Like if you really want to get something published fast, here's a couple areas that might happen.
- [54:51]
D
I have no idea how you get something published fast.
- [54:53]
B
I mean, you know, you got to go where things are hot or heat. What are now open ended research questions.
- [54:59]
D
Is what I think. I've been reflecting. I think maybe you meant it's picking up steam.
- [55:04]
B
I don't know. Sure.
- [55:06]
C
I agree that that heat does sound like a little controversial. Like that's getting a lot of heat.
- [55:10]
D
Yeah, okay, it's picking up steam.
- [55:12]
C
Maybe it is. Maybe it is getting a lot of heat.
- [55:14]
B
Maybe it's getting positive heat. You know, it's like.
- [55:17]
D
No, no, no. Press is bad press.
- [55:19]
B
When you're cooking something, you want to give it some heat. So that it's.
- [55:21]
D
This is not a phrase, but it's okay.
- [55:23]
B
I'm just, I'm going to start using it anyway.
- [55:25]
D
If you know how to get something published quickly, please let me know.
- [55:27]
B
You got to get some heat on it is what you need. Oh, well, so that's a metaphor. Not necessary. That's more like an act thing than a motivational interviewing thing, I think. Well, Dr. Monica Gilbert, thank you so much for being on the show. We really appreciate your time. Getting to hear all about your work with mi, getting to get some more resources. Do you mind sharing again? I know you have a lot out there about MI in addition to your book, but are there places people can go to sort of, you know, get more information? I know everyone's going to email you for supervision. So you know, probably only so many hours in the day that you can do that for them.
- [55:58]
D
But beyond that, her face is so calm.
- [56:03]
C
So I have a lot of like webinars, CEU webinars. I do a lot of also for private practices. So I do a lot of trainings on motivational interviewing to prepare bcbas that work in private practice, clinical coordinators, schools. I've done a lot of trainings in schools as well. Do them in vivo. I'll also do them virtually. I have my book, my deck cards which are a little like cheat sheet to motivational interview with open ended questions, affirmations, reflections that I love that those.
- [56:32]
B
Are on your website.
- [56:33]
C
Well, this is actually it's on Amazon so you know, it was just easier to do it on Amazon. And it's a little nice cheat sheet that people can take with them in their purse, in their car, book bag, whatever it is. And right before the session you can kind of take a look at some affirmations and get some ideas of these techniques, of these tools that you can use during your sessions.
- [56:54]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [56:55]
C
So I have that. And then, you know, my motivational interviewing, my motivational interviewing podcast, and also online, I post a lot on, like, social media, LinkedIn, you know, Instagram. And if anyone has questions, please don't think you're bothering me. I'm like, super open to it. You can even ask Rob how long it took me to respond to him. I think it was about like 27.5 seconds.
- [57:16]
B
No, Monica, I want to assume it was just because you like Rob Percreuse. I. Oh, let me email him back.
- [57:21]
C
No, Rob, usually it takes me like 50 plus seconds second.
- [57:26]
B
So I was like 25, you know, so I'm real special. Thanks.
- [57:31]
C
Yes. But don't worry. I mean, this is just like my. My face sometimes I have this serious face. But I'm super friendly, so you can always approach me and ask me questions.
- [57:41]
B
Oh, all right. And, and Monica, do you mind sharing your email out? I mean, we'll. We'll link your website or your website. Yeah, where should people go? Like, click.
- [57:48]
C
The website is Dr. Monicagilber.com and my Instagram thing is also Dr. Monicagilbert.com and my email, shocker. It's info@dr. Monicagilbert.Com.
- [58:03]
D
Okay.
- [58:06]
B
There's that great moment when you're like, oh, my pattern of, you know, my pattern fell apart there. I hadn't thought of it yet.
- [58:12]
C
And honestly, that's all from me because if not, I forget.
- [58:16]
B
Well, Dr. Monica Gilbert, thank you once again for being on the show. It was a real pleasure to have you.
- [58:22]
C
Thank you. Thank you guys for the invite.
- [58:24]
B
Once again, we want to thank Dr. Monica Gilbert for coming on the show and talking to us all about mi. In case you could not tell, it is something I'm very excited about. And so it was a real honor to. To have her come on the show and to talk more about mi. Let me geek out just a little bit. And I hope you are all getting to be that excited too. Before we wrap up, though, we have one more section of the show. It's time for pairings.
- [58:46]
D
Oh, yay. It's my turn to tell you about pairings. Pairings is the part of the show where I tell you about past episodes in our library slash catalog that you might want to check out if you found this one interesting. So we've had several episodes where we've talked about some variation on this topic. Rapport building, parent training, compassionate care. Practices which all kind of get wrapped up in motivational interviewing. So let me reference refer you over to those episodes. They are in no particular order. Episode 214, Compassionate Care Strategies with Mary Jane Weiss and Jessica Rohr. Episode 287, Teaching Compassionate Care to Trainees. That's a supervision episode. Episode 245, rapport building. Episode 294 and 324 we talked about behavioral artistry without. And then with Dr. Amy books fan. Episode 350.
- [59:40]
B
Is that how we, we wrote it on the on the web page. This one's without.
- [59:42]
D
No, that would be funny. Episode 315, Social validity of parent training practices with doctors Jillian Wilson and Roseanne Lack. Episode 254, Improving parent training practices. Episode 317, Collaboration with special Education Educators with Carolyn Bomier. And then finally, episode 309, family supports and Contextualized Treatment Planning. I also like to recommend a snack to go with the episode. And the snack today is a turducken. You know what that is?
- [60:14]
B
It's. It's a duck stuffed into a turkey cavity.
- [60:17]
D
I think it's a chicken. Oh, wrapped in a duck. Wrapped in a turkey.
- [60:22]
B
I said, I, I just told you. Turd duck.
- [60:25]
D
Yes, you left out the chicken part. And I, I was trying to think like what should our snack be? And then when Dr. Gilbert said I have ABA in my veins, that's what I thought of.
- [60:37]
B
So popped in your head.
- [60:38]
D
She's like in the, in the center, an AVA practitioner wrapped or an act person wrapped in a counselor.
- [60:46]
B
Okay, there you go. So there you go.
- [60:49]
D
That was pairings for you. You don't need to eat. Dr. Gilbert. I didn't mean to reference. Make that implication. Please enjoy.
- [60:55]
B
Okay, thanks. Diana got a little morbid at the end there.
- [60:58]
D
I didn't mean to.
- [60:59]
B
So once again, thank you to Dr. Gilbert, who is for coming on the show. And we also want to say thank you very much for listening to ABA InsideTrack. If you like the show, we'd appreciate it if you subscribed left us a review. You can find us online at ABA Inside Track, where you can find links to all of the articles that we discussed here, as well as a link to Dr. Gilbert's book and page. You can also find us on Our Patreon page, patreon.com ABA Inside Track, where you can subscribe at any level. But if you subscribe at the 5 and $10 levels, you're able to get extra content early. You're able to get all the episodes a week ahead of time. You're able to get access to all of our polls, you're able to get free CES for our listener choice and book club podcast for those listener choice episodes, you're able to get video and and at the $10 level with the book club, you're able to get access to all of our book clubs a year ahead of time. And the two CES because those are long books are yours yours to keep just for subscribing and supporting us@patreon.com AbainsideTrack Some other big thanks in addition to Dr. Gilbert. Some big thanks to Dr. Jim Carr for recording our intro outro music, Kyle Sturry for his interstitial music and Dan Thabet of the podcast Doctors for an amazing editing work. And I didn't forget, but you want to get that last secret code word. It is Skinner S K I N N E R surprisingly no one has ever chosen that as a code word lo these many years.
- [62:26]
D
Can you believe it?
- [62:27]
B
And you believe it. So there it is. No more description there Skinner. We'll be back next week with another fun filled episode, but until then keep responding.
- [62:36]
D
Bye bye SA.