← ABA Inside Track
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Foreign.
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Hey, everybody. Welcome to ABA Inside Track, the podcast that's like reading in your car, but safer. I'm your host, Robert Perry Crews, and with me, as always, are my fabulous co hosts.
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C
Oh, hey there, Robert Perry Crews. It's me, Jackie McDonald.
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D
And it's me, Diana Perry Crews.
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C
Hello.
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B
Hello, Diana. Waiting for her cue. It's very. That's good, good. Co hosts and behavior right there. Well, welcome, everybody. This is a podcast about behavior analysis and behavior analytic research where every week we pick a topic and discuss it at length. Some weeks we do more articles than others, and usually the weeks we do fewer articles is because we have somebody who just knows so much about the subject. There's no article that is going to contain the breadth of knowledge that they will bring to us. And as a big weighted, as far as we're concerned, this is a huge celebration for us, celebrating 10 years, doing the show, having it. This be our guest month where we have lots of esteemed guests. I don't know if we're going to get much more esteemed than this, though. We have to talk all about ethics from yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Dr. John Bailey. John, thank you so much for making time to talk with us today.
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A
My pleasure. It's my favorite topic. It's mine, too.
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D
Jackie's too.
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B
I was wondering if we get a twist of like, I've been doing ethics so long. I never really liked it, though. Just kind of. So, Dr. Bailey, I'm sure everyone listening to this podcast has either emailed you through the hotline, read your work, read one of your books about ethics, or about being a great behavior analyst, but just in case, maybe it's a grad student and it's their first class and they're just checking out related podcasts. Do you mind giving us a kind of a quick summary of yourself, your career, and how you sort of became the. The. The ethics guru that you. That you are.
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A
Well, my Training started in 1961 with Dr. Jack Michael, who later became considered the father of the field. At the time, he was just my professor. I ended up in his class quite by accident. I didn't know anything about psychology. I never had a psychology course. And it changed my life. It wasn't just a course, it was the course. And because of the way he talked about the potential for this new field, again, got to remember when this was. It just sounded perfect to me. It just sounded like that makes so much sense. That's a way to look at human behavior that I never thought about before. I want to get involved with this. That was week two, and I have never looked back. And I was fortunate to continue at Arizona State and got my master's degree. I worked with a gentleman called Lee Myerson, Dr. Lee Meyerson, who was a clinical psychologist who had been converted to behavior analysis by Jack Michael. And so the two of them were quite a pair. A very experimental person, a very clinical person. I worked with both of them. I think I benefited from all of that. And I then went to the University of Kansas for my PhD. I worked with Mott Wolf at Kansas, and I was involved in the inaugural issue of Jabba. So I was there in the beginning of that. I mean, I just felt like I was in the right place at the right time, and I was the luckiest guy in the world. And so I finished my PhD at Kansas in 1970, happened on this position at DeForest State, came there as a new assistant professor. And the next luckiest thing that could happen to somebody happened to me. So I'm sitting in my office, waiting for. Unpacking books in my little office and waiting for the first day of class, and the student comes up, knocks on. Knocks on the door. The door is partly open. He sticks his head in and says, hi, I'm Brian Iwata. I'm your new student. And I never had met him before. I had no idea that was going to happen. Somebody else picked him to be in our doctoral program. That person apparently left the department. So Brian came without a major professor. So he came to me. His next thing was, so, what do you do? And I said, well, there's this field called behavior analysis, and that's what I do. And he says, well, that's interesting, because he had never heard of it. And he didn't come to Florida State to work with me or to be a behavior analyst. He was gonna. He thought he was gonna be a school psychologist. No way. And he picked FSU for a very odd reason. So back in the day that we're talking 1970, if you wanted to find out where a place was, you used a thing called a map. And it was a big piece of paper with all these little lines and numbers and rows and stuff on there. And he was looking for a place to go, and he thought it would be nice to go to a school that was right on the water. Well, FSU is not. But if you look at a US map and you look at the dot that says Tallahassee, it's big enough that it sort of looks like it's right next to the Gulf of Mexico. But of course it wasn't. So he came to FSU for the wrong reason. He didn't know what he was getting into. And he was my first student. And I had. You know, you don't get trained in how to be a professor. You just kind of sort of pick it up. So I. My experience with Brian was that he essentially shaped on me to become a professor. And of course, he was wildly successful. And if your first graduate student turns out to be wildly successful, it makes you think, hey, maybe I know what I'm doing. And so I got other students and they came in. The later students came more deliberately. Like they sort of came on purpose because they had. Now they'd heard about FSU and I was there and all that. But all of the next 62 PhDs that I trained benefited from the fact that I had essentially been trained by Brian to be a professor. So can't get any more lucky than that. The next lucky thing that happened to get closer to the question here was that I knew Jerry Shook. Jerry Shook graduated from Western Michigan. He came to Florida to work in our state government in a new department that had been created about behavior analysis. It was called behavior modification in those days. And I met him, we got acquainted. We worked together on some projects. The biggest one had to do with a statewide peer review committee for behavior modification. He there's a lot more of the story, but we don't have time for that. He essentially created the certification board here in Tallahassee. He invited me to be on that first board. Everybody on the board, there's about five or six of us. Each person had something they were assigned to do. I didn't get anything. So everybody else, we'd have our board meetings and they would report on their progress. I just sit there and go, head nod and say, boy, you guys are doing great work. And Jerry Shook said, well, the next project is we need a code of ethics. Because if you're going to be a professional organization, that's one of the requirements, is you have to have that. So now we're up to 1999, 98, 99 around in there. So they acquired a mock, sort of a mock code of ethics that another behavior analyst had developed by going to the APA Clinical Psychology Code. Typing that into Word, did search and replace where it said clinical psychology. He put in behavior analyst. We had a boom, we had a code. That code was then circulated to about 15 or 20 big names in the field to adjust it to really suit our field. And. But then we had a code. So that was promulgated out into the world, which was harder to do back in those days because the Internet didn't really exist the way it does now. And a couple years go by, and Jerry Schuck says, you know, we need somebody to really spearhead this ethics code because people are not paying attention to it. And I'm going to be going to University of Pennsylvania to give a talk on ethics. I'm invited to come up there and do that. And how would you like to come and cope and do that with me? It's going to be a workshop. And I said, sure. So then the next luckiest thing that could happen was he said to me, well, why don't you design this and we'll do it together? So I said, okay. So I set out to do that. And somewhere in that process, it dawned on me. You know, I don't even know what these people are interested in. Ethics is a big field. I don't want to talk about stuff that they already know or leave stuff out that they're interested. So do you think, Jerry, do you think you could get the people who've signed up for this workshop to send us ethics questions so then we could make this thing work so that it matched them? Well, that was one of the luckiest things I ever did. I'm not sure quite. I think it's just insecurity that caused me to do that, not knowing what's the right thing to do. So a few weeks later, we're about four months out of this workshop. About two months later. So now I've got about two months to the workshop. I get this box in the mail. You probably don't remember what that is, but there's. U.S. postal Service delivers things we do. I'm not as young as you think. Yeah, I get this box, I open it up, and there must be a hundred of these pages in there, questions. And so I start going through those. I wasn't going to talk about this. Oh, that's a good idea. That's a good topic. That's a good topic. I've tried to sort them into piles. Next thing I know, I've got a workshop, because I've got something to say about each of these questions that they've got. Well, that really opened the door to the whole concept of, well, how do you develop a code of ethics? You develop it around the problems that people bring to you. You don't tell them the problems. They tell you what they are, and then you form it. And as a matter of fact, that's exactly the way the original APA code was developed back in the 50s, they did the same thing. They put a call out to clinical psychologists and said, tell us ethics problems. And anyway, that's the way that worked and that's the way it should work. So then I started this master's program in Panama City in 1999, the same year that the BACB board started. So I was teaching over there, I created that curriculum. And one of the classes that we had to have in there was ethics. And in those days, the requirement for ethics training was that you had to have a three hour lecture on ethics. And I looked at that and said, you got to be kidding. Because at that point I kind of knew what was going on. And so I made a whole course, regular three hour, 15 week course. So now I'm teaching a 15 week course using a lot of the stuff that I learned from the Penn University of Pennsylvania experience. So in the pro. In the process of doing that, I needed a book, and there was no book. So I used a clinical psychology book, Clinical Ethics for psychologists, something like that. So I used that book, and that was pretty good because it told all the things that clinical psychologists do that you don't want to do. So I was able to use that and translate that into behavioral terms about, I don't know, two years in, I was teaching the class and as part of my riff on this topic, I'd say, well, I'm going to have to use this clinical book because we don't have a book, a behavioral book on ethics. Well, wouldn't you know, another one of the luckiest things could happen to me. I've got a student sitting in the back room going, Dr. Bailey, why don't you write that book? Well, huh, That's a good idea. So I got together with Dr. Burch and we had already co authored a book together, the How Dogs Learn book. And we knew we could work together. And I said, you know what do you think we'd do a book on ethics? And she says, sure, that'd be fine. We'll do that. So then that was the first book on ethics. And. And it's been interesting because now we're up to the fourth edition and there'll be a fifth edition at some point, I guess. So that's 20 years experience seeing the refinement of the code. And I was involved in developing the initial code and some refinements. Then it's since then gone on to other people. That's fine. But I've made it my mission to try to Capture the essence of what that code is in these books. Is that too much information for.
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B
No, that's perfect. That's exactly the kind of context. I think one of the challenges that many, well, the vast majority, I think, of practicing behavior analysts these days is they were certified, you know, either right before or right after, you know, the current ethics code was released, giving them a loss of a lot of that context. And I think, I know for me personally, sort of having been a BCBA since right before the. Right around the second. Second set of, second update of the guidelines, I think. Was that like 2005? Yeah, it was like right after. Yeah, right after that. We were all kind of right after that. You know, ethics was one of those things that we've seen change ourselves even in our, you know, relatively brief careers. But for folks who are starting out now, just how do you approach ethics? Ethical solution? Is it easier for them now? Is it harder for them not knowing that there was this level of context? I'm actually very curious. Prior to the development of first the disciplinary guidelines and then what we consider, you know, those first guidelines. So that first kind of ethics code, was it just a matter of everyone was using whatever ethics they learned as clinical psychologists, or was it sort of a mishmash of people just solving problems the best they could? How was that process? Was it just not. Not defined at all because behavior, you know, the certification board wasn't in place.
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A
The people who were the founders of the field, Bear, Wolf, Risley and that ilk of people, again, we're back into the 60s. They were not behavior analysts. They were something else. They were experimental psychologists trying out experimental procedures with humans. Well, that's what it amounts to. They were all early middle aged people had families and they had kids. And so Don Baer was a developmental psychologist, and he learned from Bijou, who was a developmental psychologist. Developmental child psychologist. Wolf had children. And if, if you're, if you're a parent and you're raising kids, it, it makes you approach the world in a different way. Because now you. When you think about behavior, you think about it from a compassionate point of view and you think about, well, if that was my kid, how would I want to treat them? And if that's your background, then you really don't need ethics because you're going to do the right thing always. It's only been later, like now that we've discovered that people are getting into it. They're 20 years old, 22 years old, something like that. They don't have kids. They never took A course in child development. And some of them. I kind of hate to say this, I don't want to lose some of your audience, but some people might have gotten into this for the wrong reason. So I think that you need a code of ethics. Every profession needs one. But you need it to make sure that anybody coming into the field who doesn't have the right background, in fact, can assume that if they do these rules, they will now have the right background. That's what it amounts to.
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D
And I don't think that you're alienating our audience by saying that because we have a very compassionate group of folks who listen to. To our show. But I, I hear what you're saying and that our field has grown so much recently. Right. And there are concerns about quality control with respect to services that are provided, education that's being given, and whether that is really going to allow for the level of ethical scrutiny that should be done by folks who are in our profession.
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And unfortunately, there are pressures outside of behavior analysis or behavior analysts to compromise their ethics.
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D
Yeah.
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This. You probably saw this big expose from New York Times. It just came out.
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C
You did see that this morning. Yep.
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A
Yeah. All of, all of that stuff that was involved in that center had to be overseen by BCBAs, which meant that their values had been compromised by the company that they're working for. In fact, this is not exactly one of your questions, but. And you can cut this out if you want to. Oh, no, no. But the code. The code is written as though the behavior analyst is in charge of the delivery of services. That's the assumption. Right. There's nothing in the code that says, but if you're working for somebody else. Here's a separate code A of ethics. There's nothing like that. If you're working in a school system, there's a different code of ethics. That's not the case. And the code from the beginning made that assumption because in the beginning, that's the way it was. It was all mom and pop operations and, And A B. A BCBA would hire some other BCBAs and some RBTs, and they would have a facility. That was it. And there was, There wasn't anything of. Well, the people who are really in charge are in Wall Street. Yeah. And they're dictating what the rules are. And so if I, you know, if I have an opportunity to have input into the next code, it's going to be. We need to have some cautions in there about. If you're working under these circumstances. Here's what you need to do so. For example, one of my favorite words for contemporary behavior analysts is pushback. You need to be prepared to push back when somebody like a clinical director or, you know, some corporate person tells you, okay, well, by the way, kids only get seven minute naps. You don't go, yes sir. You go, I don't think, I don't think so. I've had, it was interesting that the New York Times focused on that example because I've gotten that, that example of the hotline repeatedly over the last two, three years. I was all the way from they don't get naps if they start to nod off, wake them up to the seven minute rule to, you know, we'll give them 30 minutes. And I remember one, this was a couple of years ago, I remember this one where the person wrote in and said we'd been told the kids don't, they don't need to have naps. And so that's why we're going to do it. And, and I said to myself that that's not right. And so I kind of dipped back into my developmental psychology training and looked it up and sure enough, there are guidelines in developmental psychology. If you're two, you probably need this kind of a nap. If you're three, if you're four. Well, the people who are running behavior analysis now want you to disregard all that. Well, that's totally unethical. So sorry about that.
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D
Reach it.
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No, and we, I 100% agree. Yeah, naps are vital.
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Sure. Well, and, and lots of stuff, you know, like what if the kid is hungry? What if the kid comes to clinic and didn't have breakfast or, you know, whatever. And, and so the kid's hungry. Oh no, we don't feed them until 11:00 clock or something. Well, you don't teach kids, you don't treat kids like that.
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D
Right? Yeah, because, you know, I've heard of situations like that where the people who are making the decisions are not behavior analysts and therefore they're outside of the purview of the code and can act however they, you know, see fit. And usually the way, the way that it's seen fit is to meet some bottom line or make money for the company. And I can, I haven't been in that situation personally, but I think as a behavior analyst, if you are caught in between what you know to be right for your ethics and then what your boss is telling you to do, like that is a real ethical conundrum and it's not fully covered in the code that we have now. So you did answer one of Rob's questions on the list, which was, if you could take a red pen to the code, what would you add or what would you update?
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B
So, really good point, I think, and the way you described it to Dr. Bailey, the difference in where were these codes developed? Because I'm thinking when I hear that concern of like, well, there's, there's a difference discrepancy between my ethics as a behavior analyst and the practice of the setting I'm in, the context I work in. I primarily worked in schools. So I'm thinking, oh, well, that would be, you know, oh, I go talk to the principal and I have a relationship with the principal, and the principal understands my code because that was a part of my getting the job. But we're now talking about behavior analysts who are going to, who are they going to share their ethics to? Like you said, Wall Street. They're going to go find like, stockbrokers, the venture capitalists, people who, as far as I can tell, cares zero about actual human development versus money. Maybe some of them are really nice people. I have yet to see a lot of evidence that. But, you know, even if you go talk to your, your manager or the head of your clinic, they may not even be making the decisions. Kind of reminds me of back when I had a job in retail and I was like the assistant manager of a store and I had no power over any policy whatsoever. It's sort of sad to think that our field of these highly trained individuals are, are being relegated to, you know, clerk at Walmart. In terms of their ability to make decisions for themselves based on the best interest of their client.
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A
Yep. They're in many settings they're treated as just another employee. And you know, that's, that's certainly not right. I, I, I just retired recently from this master's program, the last, my second or third retirement with this master's program. And as part, and I always taught the ethics course and it was the first course that students would take, so I wanted to be first so I could get the word in, you know, you can carry this ethics with you. So, and in that course I would, I would emphasize the fact that if you're going to go someplace and interview for a job, take a marked up copy of the code with you. And when the interviewer says so, do you have any questions? You pull out your marked up copy and you say, yeah, I want to talk to you about some of my ethics. And is this going to be a problem? And so, and because the students were having this whole semester with me on ethics, I was bringing contemporary ethics questions to the class straight off the hotline. So, you know, I would teach the class. I think it started at 4 o' clock in the afternoon. So I'd already answered half a dozen ethics questions and I'd look at some of those and I'm going to take this into class. So I would contact the writer and say, can I use this? They almost always say, sure, take it to class. Present that in there. It's like you're going to have questions like this. This is from somebody like you, what you're going to be like two years from now, you're going to be in this situation. And we could spend up to half an hour just discussing in some detail how this question came up, what the solutions are, what they're going to do to get out of it. And so I think I've had an impact, at least. I know some students are very torn when I graduate between getting one of these six figure jobs where I tell them, let me tell you this, I can talk to you about this. You'll get this. I would tell them, listen, they are only interested in you for one thing. There's only one thing they want out of you that's your signature. They just want you to sign off on stuff. They don't even care if you're a well trained behavior analyst as long as you'll sign these forms and agree to these processes and these policies and you know, to a certain extent trying to put into context you're spending all this time over a two year period intensive period and all they want your signature. Well, what kind of a job is
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D
that and what kind of services are you providing your clients if you don't have. Right. That level of control.
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A
Yeah, right. Yeah.
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D
It's not in their best interest.
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B
While we're on the subject of sort of the changing rules, changing expectations of ethics. I'd love to go back a little bit though. Similar topic as sort of the head of the subject matter experts who were editing the guidelines. The second time, I think the third time, this is our fourth, I lose track after a little while. There's a great timeline in. We'll have the citation in our notes.
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D
But I didn't say what we were.
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Oh, well, do you want to. Okay. We have a great, great article that just sort of does a great summary of ethics, the ethics codes throughout, throughout the history of the BACB See what it is.
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D
Right.
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B
Tell us what it is now, then
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we'll switch it up. This article is the History of the Behavior Analyst Certification Board's ethics codes by Sellers, Cynyuk, Lichtenberger, and Carr, and that was published in Behavior analysis and practice 2025.
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B
Yeah. So in terms of that process, I. I'm guessing it was a little mix of the box of ethics questions and just talking with other people about their metaphorical or literal box of ethics questions. But when you get together with other subject matter experts to make these edits, what. What exactly is that process? What does it entail? Is it. Is it just talking about ethics questions you've received and thinking about whether or not the current ethics code is meeting those needs? Is there more back and forth, like, I'd just love to hear about the processes that go into it.
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A
The last one that I was on the board brought together about 15 people, including an attorney who worked for the board, some people who were on the board, and some outside people that represent a different interest group, so to speak. And the board at that point had been receiving these notice of alleged violations. And so some of the code consisted of, we're getting this kind of violation. What do we need to put in the code that would prevent this sort of thing happening? And then we would sit around and, and try to actually compose something that was. That was a. That was a different difficult process. So I think we spent three and a half days working on this, and long days, too. You know, they'd bring lunch in and we'd work through lunch. I mean, it was difficult. And the job, as it turns out, a code of ethics is actually a legal document, and it's something that has to be defended. If somebody gets accused of certain. A certain thing and they want to challenge the code, you could end up in court. And so the attorney plays a very key role in the wording of it. So you, you can kind of, you know, amongst yourselves, come up with. But we need something that covers this topic, and you craft that, you know, short paragraph about that. And the attorney, the attorney sitting there, arms folded, going like, people don't know what you're talking about. So you get done, and she says, I'll. I'll fix this one. I think I can fix this. And I think she stayed up all night going back through what we had written, and the next day she'd say, and we were working with a screen so she could put it up there. Here's what you wrote, and here's my recommendations. And we'd look at it and go, oh, yeah, good point. I didn't think about that.
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D
Like Michelangelo seeing the statue inside the slab of marble.
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A
So it's a very arduous process, I would have to say. Really so. And with that many people, you get lots of input. What I think was missing on the last one, I didn't have any direct involvement in that last revision, but I think what was missing was some BCBAs who work for private equity who could tell you we need to do something about this. We're getting this kind of pressure. What do we do that's missing? But I surely hope they get that fixed and maybe after these recent exposes, that's surely going to have their attention.
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C
I mean, I hope so. There's a new one every month now. I know it's not doing a great.
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B
There was the Indiana, Indiana one that the Wall Street Journal broke about like six weeks ago, five weeks ago. And again, you read the article and it, it's sort of one of those things of like I get like, I guess technically, legally, the way they were charging insurance was allowed. But you know, at what point was there the thought about this is not an appropriate use of services, even though we can get the money for what we're providing is, is this an ethical use of our certification and our treatment plan?
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A
And is it, and is it ethical to consume all that money when it could be going to other people? I think an ethical person thinks about that. Hi.
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C
Do you want to be a bcba, also known as a Board Certified Behavior Analyst?
- [30:40]
D
Sure, we all do.
- [30:41]
C
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- [30:48]
D
Choose from any one of these Masters
- [30:51]
C
of Science in Applied Behavior Analysis, Master's
- [30:53]
D
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- [30:58]
C
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- [31:01]
D
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C
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D
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- [31:19]
C
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- [31:28]
D
Don't delay, supplies are limited. Learn more at regiscollege.edu.
- [31:33]
C
again, that's www.regiscollege.edu regiscollege.edu. one more time, www.regiscollege.edu.
- [31:44]
D
see you there.
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B
Hey everyone. Sorry to pause our conversation with Dr. John Bailey, but I want to remind our listeners that ABA insidetrack is ACE and Kwaba approved by listening to this episode, you're able to earn one ethics ce. Ooh, ethics.
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C
Ah.
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B
All you need to do is finish listening to the episode, then go to our website, ABA InsideTrack.com or click the link in our podcast player in our pod in your podcast player. That'll take you right to the website where you can find links to the article we discussed to find transcript of the show, as well as to enter a code and some quiz question answers to get that ced. The code words are going to come right now. And these are phrases from Dr. Bailey that stood out in our discussion with him. And the first one is pushback. P U S H B A C K. Space. No space. Don't worry about that part. Just remember it's pushback. Kind of like when someone at your company is telling you to do something unethical, you better get ready to give them some pushback. The guitar. Just imagine a guitar lick. But we didn't talk about that strategy. Just imagine like a cool guitar lick behind your actions and oh, yeah, it's so much easier to do them. Push back. All right, let's get back to our discussion about ethics with Dr. John Bailey. I haven't read the Times one, but the wall Street Journal, what I did read and the. The BCBA that was sort of in charge of the. The. The provider did not. Did not come off sounding very well thought out on any of that. It was sort of just very much falling back on the, like, well, then I said I could get the money. They said I could do it. So I did. It's like, I don't know how they.
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D
I don't.
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B
I don't know them. So I don't want to guess what their, what their education, what their process was like, but did not seem like it had. They had the right amount of sort of red flags taught to them to be looking out for Right.
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D
And ethical behavior is shaped right as cultural behavior. So it's going to be influenced by the group that you're surrounded by. And that is concerning to me as well, that if we aren't focusing on this throughout our formative BCPA years, then it doesn't really become embedded as a core part of who we are as behavior analysts. And you could be more easily swayed. So it has to be foremost. I love that that's the first class that you taught in your program is ethics.
- [34:09]
A
Yeah. Well, you know, this last issue, the ones you just mentioned, Diane, was it has to do you get a lot of your ethical training before you ever even become a graduate student. It's your upgrade, your upbringing. And that is actually the topic of our latest book which answers the question, what if an ethical person became a behavior analyst? What would they do? And so that book has just come out. It's called the Ethical Behavior Analyst. And it's not about the code. It's about what would an ethical person do under the kind of circumstances that a behavior analyst encounters pretty much on a daily basis. And I hope that a lot of people will read that book and then start to reflect on their own. What was your ethical status when you became a grad student? What, you know, how did you do things?
- [35:05]
D
So I'm excited to read it. Yeah, you know, Jackie is.
- [35:12]
A
I, I really like it, especially because it's, it's not code 310 says do this code 404. It's not, that's not what it is. It's like what's the right thing to do in all of those situations that come up and you know, the bottom line and the, the primary author. I'm not the first author. The first author was one of my students from 10 years ago who has set up his own small company and has resisted left and right for years, private equity offerings to buy him out. And he refused to do it. And it was, and it was because of his upbringing and his first job that he had as an rbt, working under a very ethical person who just kind of, you know, you just kind of absorb that value system just like you do from your parents.
- [36:02]
C
I think that the, the first author is Zachary Stevens.
- [36:07]
A
Yeah.
- [36:08]
C
Anyone that's listening? He said Stevens, Bertrand Bailey.
- [36:13]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [36:14]
B
So John, I, you mentioned something kind of, now we're on the subject of, of, of books in writing about the ethics codes that they have to kind of serve a number of functions. One of them being legal, one of them being just being able to take kind of high minded ethical ideas and sort of coalesce them into digestible, actionable chunks. And then the other piece being writing ethics, whether it's scenarios, whether it's teaching the ethics, whether it's being in the code, writing all of this down in a way that someone can read and understand and then put into practice. I'd love to hear about how your means of teaching ethics, whether through your professorship, whether it's through the writing of books over the years, whether that's changed or if you sort of found a good way that you find to just get across the message of ethics to your students or to, to your readers,
- [37:09]
A
that's a good, that's A good question. And it. My. My teaching of. It evolved over the years, and it really kicked into high gear once I had the hotline going, because I realized that. That the questions I was getting were. You know, I felt like I had my. My thumb on the pulse of the field. And ethics can be a very dry topic, and it can really be boring
- [37:39]
C
sometimes. It is hard to live it up. The ethics class don't have scenarios. I know.
- [37:45]
A
Yeah. And so when I would. When I would bring this in, fresh off the hotline, and the. The. The stuff in there is very controversial. It's. It's almost probably too controversial to put in a book. Some of it we've been able to use. But. But anyway. And it's the sort of thing that is shocking enough that, you know, I would put this in there. I would put the question up on the screen, and I'd say, you read this. And I can see the students reading this and going, what? You did what? Oh, no. The behavior analyst discovered that an RBT came to school with a gun in their backpack.
- [38:29]
D
Oh, my gosh.
- [38:30]
B
Wow.
- [38:31]
A
What. How. How could that happen? I mean, nobody. There's nothing in the code that says don't bring a gun to school. There's. We don't have a code for that.
- [38:41]
C
Yeah, that's true.
- [38:42]
A
Yet. And yet somebody felt like, okay, well, yeah, so I think if you do that, if you just. And the questions were totally out of order. So it wasn't like, okay, we're on chapter three. I need to find a question that wasn't that. It was just whatever it was. And so they would have to skip ahead in the code to find a code that would be relevant to that. And so that's. I mean, we just do that for 15 weeks. You know, every class I would come in, it's like, we've got another one. We've got another one. Got another one. And I think that's by. We. By the time we got done, people, I think, had the impression that. That the. The Code of Ethics is a living document, and it represents the values of our field, and it's the guidelines for how to operate in such a way that you don't end up in jail. Nobody wants to end up as a part of an expose in the New York Times or, you know, the back of a paddy wagon. You don't want that. So what do you have to do? And I think just. It's kind of this drumbeat, you know, Know, week after week after week after week, you know, hearing these things that I think that's what makes you really kind of think of what you're doing. Then I, I do other things. I mean they obviously reading the book and they're taking quizzes and stuff. But another thing I would have, one of, one of their assignments was to interview an RBT and ask that person, tell me about some ethics situations that you've run into. Do the interview, write a paper, then we're going to discuss it in class. So that gives them some sense of. Because they're going to be supervising these people. So that was one. And then the second interview, the first one came at about week four or so. And then there's a second interview about week 10, eight or 10, somewhere up in there. Interview a BCBA and ask them what are some ethics situations you run into. Write the paper, turn it in, we're going to discuss those in class. So it's, it's kind of constant being in touch with what's going on. What's going on. Here's the issues. This is what people are talking about and they're reading the book. But that's more like just a foundation where you know how to find things if you would need to look them up. So that's, that was my approach to it.
- [40:54]
B
That sounds, that sounds good. I mean my own personal ethics decision making journey until I started just looking at case after case, situation after situation. It was just these rules are boring. I don't remember all the numbers. The, the new ethics code has been better for like parsing out. There were a lot of subheadings I couldn't follow. Jackie was good. Jackie used to, we went to a conference once. There was a quiz on the old code when it had like, you know, the 403B A, all those. And she was, she was nailing questions left and right. I think I got one that was like, what's the last section? I think I said the glossary. I got that one right. But practicing it more now, having lots of case studies looking at them. I, I, I, I've, I've seen that, that living document. I think once you, once you see it as a living document does seem like you're almost there in terms of your being able to keep building your ethics muscles as you continue on.
- [41:44]
A
Yeah.
- [41:46]
B
So John, in terms of, I know we've brought up the hotline a number of times. I'm sure a lot of listeners have emailed you, but where did that idea come from? Just, just the, just seeing so many students with so many questions and you were like, there's got to Be a better way. It was someone gave you a good phone plan for people calling into the hotline or email plan. You were like, sure, might as well use it for that. Where did the hotline kind of develop from?
- [42:10]
A
It started as a different idea. I was involved with the initial board that created the APPA organization. This was back in 2005, 6, 7, somewhere back in there. And we decided that we would publish a newsletter. And of course, at that point, I'd been teaching ethics, and I said, well, we need to have a column on ethics. Every issue, we need to have something in there on ethics. So they agreed to that. So I think we did maybe a few months of that where we'd put a. Like a Q A in there. And then I suggested, you know, why don't we have people write in and give us questions, and then we'll come up with answers and we'll put them in the next issue. What about something like that? So we did that for a while. It got to be controversial because there was a couple of us that were in charge of that, and we disagreed on the answers. And I felt like the person that disagreed with me was wrong. And I'll take. I'll take correction on a lot of topics from a lot of people, but not that. No. So that actually represented a parting of the ways. And so then I decided, you know, a more effective way to do this is actually have an ethics hotline. And I think I. I just picked that up just because they have these suicide hotlines and stuff like that. And it's like, well, maybe we need an ethics hotline.
- [43:53]
D
So.
- [43:53]
A
And it's a little bit of a misnomer because it's not a phone call. It's actually email. But you can't put something out there says hot email. That doesn't sound right. So, yeah, we just. We just figured people would figure the metaphor out, so. And that was run through abba, so. But it was very clunky. So the hotline actually sat on the ABBA website. So people would write into that. Somebody at ABBA had to read those. They would send them to me. I would write the answer, I'd send it back to abba, then ABBA would send it back to the person. So it was very clunky.
- [44:30]
C
I remember that.
- [44:31]
A
Yeah.
- [44:32]
C
Yeah.
- [44:33]
A
And it took a mo.
- [44:34]
C
It took multiple days.
- [44:35]
A
Yeah, it did. That went along for a while in that clunky fashion. And then one day, I just got a phone call from Abbas, essentially said, you're fired. Was, we're not gonna. We're not gonna do that anymore. At Hotline, they didn't give me any reason. And I. I still don't know what the reason was, but the luckiest day in my life when that happened. And it happened right before we. We were going on a trip to a conference or something, and that call came in right before we were getting in the car to go to the airport. So we're. Now we're driving to the airport and I'm telling Dr. Birch, you're not going to believe what happened. I just got fired. I don't think I've ever been fired before from anything. And I got fired from Hotline. And so she goes, oh, what are you going to do? And we stood over it till we got to the airport and we checked in. We're sitting in the lounge waiting for the plane. And I said, well, that's ridiculous. I know how to do this. I'll just do it myself.
- [45:43]
D
Yeah.
- [45:44]
A
So I called up my tech. I think we had a. We have a tech company here in Tallahassee, Cuneo Creative. And I worked with him on lots of projects. So I called him up and said, I want to create an ethics hotline. And it's. I told him what I wanted to look like. And they said, okay, we'll get on it, get on the plane. We get to Atlanta. I call him up again and I say, I've got an. I got an idea for the COVID of the website and I had sketched it out. So I told him what that was and I sent him that image. And that was the butterfly image that goes along there. And I, I picked that because it was. I thought it was nice, kind of neutral. Everybody's sympathetic about, you know, want to save the butterflies, you know. And I told him, you know, I want. I'd like to have the following sections and so on. So then we got to wherever we were going, New York or something. I called them and how's it going? And they go, we got a draft for you. So they sent me that. So this is boom, boom, boom, boom. We're moving along by. The short version is by the time I got back to Tallahassee, we had a hotline. So this was like within a three day period, this whole thing got set up. And then it was just a matter of letting people know there's a new address. It's not called the ethics hotline. It's called the ABA Ethics hotline dot com. So then if I was giving a talk somewhere, I would mention, by the way, if you have ethics question you know, write the hotline. Boom. Here we are 10 years, almost 10 years later, and we're getting two to 3,000 questions a year. And I've got my finger on the pulse of this field. Like this whole thing with private equity. I saw this coming 10 years ago.
- [47:20]
D
Yeah.
- [47:21]
A
And all the problems that, that we have with supervision, I've seen that coming. I can tell you that that needs to be fixed. The whole supervision thing is a mess, and I could go on and on, but I have a really good feel for what's happening out there. And I think we help a lot of people. They get themselves in a bind, they don't know what to do, and I think we can help them. And I don't want to imply that it's me, because I've got about a dozen people that are part of the board of my ethics hotline. So when I get a question and I can answer it, I'll do that. But sometimes I don't know the answer. And so I'll send it off to one of my experts. And Zach Stevens is one of them. I send a lot of them to him, and I'll send the ones to him that require a knowledgeable person who knows how to talk about the ethics from that point of view of what's the right thing to do in this situation. And he just does a beautiful job. All of them do beautiful job. But I've got one person who does nothing but answer dual relationship questions, another person who does just school questions, another person that just does supervision questions and so on. So these people specialize in that. And they'll get, depending upon, you know, the flow, they'll get, you know, between one and three questions a day. So they're spending a chunk of their time. Volunteers totally volunteer. And the contingency is turn it around in 24 hours. We want to be able to give people a pretty quick response.
- [48:55]
D
That's such a service.
- [48:57]
B
Oh, yes.
- [48:57]
D
For our field. And through this story you have, you have inadvertently reinforced everyone's behavior of trying to wait until their plane flight in order to get something really important done.
- [49:10]
A
I think you have to strike while the iron's hot. And. Yeah. And I, you know, and that's. That's sort of my. My mission about this hotline is somebody has a question, and to them it's a hot question. They're actually sitting there waiting for the answer.
- [49:25]
D
Yeah.
- [49:25]
A
And if I can get it to them, like, right while we're doing this, I'm sure there's been two or three come in and when we get done, I'll try to get back to those people so they'll get their answer the same day, because I can tell that there's urgency in what they're. What's going on.
- [49:41]
D
That's incredible.
- [49:41]
B
Yeah. So I appreciate so much of the context you've been adding to kind of the story of ethics in our field, Dr. Bailey. And I know we could. I mean, I would personally love to ask a million more questions and keep you for a longer chunk of your afternoon, but we should probably wrap up because I know you've been very generous with your time. So we're going to move into the next section of the show, the dissemination station.
- [50:04]
A
Okay.
- [50:07]
B
So this is usually where we kind of summarize, you know, either what we've been discussing some topics and we kind of ask for some actionable steps from your perspective or actionable related to ethics. And certainly you mentioned kind of one of the things I was going to ask was around who do you typically turn to for ethics questions?
- [50:24]
C
You.
- [50:24]
B
And you answered have folks who know more about certain subjects than you do in ethics, because you don't have to know the whole thing. But are there other kind of ethics, problem solving, ethical thinking, kind of strengthening activities you like to engage in? I mean, is it just the act of getting so many questions every single day, having to think about them that sort of keeps you feeling like your ethics is staying sharp? But not everyone has going to make their own ethics hotline, I guess. What would you recommend for folks who might not see that same depth and breadth of questions in terms of staying in ethical shape?
- [50:59]
A
Well, it's going to be hard to achieve because it takes practice. Arnold Palmer said, if you want to get good at golf, you got to play a lot of golf. If you want to be good at ethics, you got to answer a lot of ethics questions. And so an individual, I mean, that's where I think we're able to provide this service. Because if you add up the years experience of the people on the board, we've got 100 years experience at least dealing with ethical problems and somebody who's just graduated from a master's program and they're in their first job, they have zero experience with this, and they're going to just learn over time. And so, you know, I don't. You can't just read a book and become an expert in this area. You have to have lived experience. And so, I don't know, somehow you have to put yourself in a position where you can listen to lots of ethics questions. And talk about them with people. I don't know. I don't know if there's anything else. There's really no theory that if you learn the theory, somehow you can answer these questions. I'm sorry I can't give you a better answer.
- [52:13]
C
No, I did give the answer of making sure you know who your mentors are. So if you've come out of graduate school, know that you have someone that you can turn to that is more knowledgeable than you are when an ethical situation arises so that you don't try to mumble through it yourself and then make a. Make a decision that's going to, you know, impact your whole life negatively.
- [52:36]
A
Yeah. Or. Or harm somebody. Here's a common thing that comes through. People say, I've just learned that, and then they'll describe something that somebody did. I just learned that this person has, you know, fabricated some data or they're doing fraudulent billing or, you know, whatever it is. What do I do? Well, a lot of people don't know that, that under the code, you have to have firsthand information and you've got to have documentation. Or they'll write and they'll say, somebody did this, and I want to report them, but I want to be anonymous. That's not one of the ground rules. The ground rules are you have to put your name to it. You have to be firsthand knowledge, and you have to put your name on it, and you have to be prepared to defend it. If they contest this thing, you have to be prepared. So I think that's a valuable thing for people to know. One more thing that's really important, like BCBA will write in and say, we have the following problems in the clinic, and I've taken them to the clinical director, and I've done that more than once, and nothing has happened. What do I do? My first question is, did you put that in writing? And they'll usually come back and say, well, no, it's like documentation that is. That ought to be taught. Really, in an ethics class and with my students, I would teach that. But people have to know that if you see something that's unethical and you need to report it internally, which, which that's what the board wants you to do. You have the meeting and you follow that meeting up with a. A list of. Here's the topics that I presented at that meeting today. Because we have to have that paper trail. And in some cases, I tell people, you need to create that paper trail, because at some point there's going to be an investigation, and they're going to look into this. It might be a year from now. And you want to be the one that said, here's my copy of the memo. I reported this, and I could not get anybody to listen. And if you just say, well, I told them, that doesn't count. It doesn't exist.
- [54:43]
C
Right. One thing in our. In our classes is we role play those awkward situations where you're going to have to confront someone in an ethical situation. Because I was like, you can't just report people to the war left and right. Right. You have to speak to them first and let them know that you're going to report them. And it's going to be awkward, but it's your professional responsibility to do so. And I think that helps a lot because students are like, I don't want to go to my boss and tell them they're being unethical. I'm like, well, then you shouldn't be in our field. Right. Because that's part of your responsibility in our field is to step up and protect the people working with. But it can get really awkward.
- [55:18]
A
It's very awkward, particularly even if you're starting with something simple like how to say no.
- [55:24]
C
Right.
- [55:25]
A
You know, you can't just say no because that looks rude. And if, like, you're not a team player or something. So you got to. You got to develop some intraverbals connected with saying no. And in our class, we did some of that. I don't think when all was said and done, we did enough of that kind of practice. But I think a good ethics course would take Jackie's advice and probably have role plays every week on both sides. So now you're the clinical director, and somebody brings this to you. What are you going to do? Okay, now you're the BCBA and you're bringing to the clinical director. What are you going to do? That actually would be a service that somebody could develop some video clips on that that you could use to kind of see how you're going to do this whole thing.
- [56:09]
D
That's a good idea.
- [56:10]
A
Yeah. I think particularly we've got a kind of a generation of people that don't really talk to other people. They do it with their thumbs.
- [56:17]
C
Right.
- [56:18]
A
And you can't do that. You have to be able to face to face, just like Jackie said, it's awkward. And how do you get. How do you get through that? That is an excellent point, Jackie. Mm.
- [56:29]
B
So, John, looking ahead in terms of ethical dilemmas, you know, we talked about the private equity dilemma. We're taught you talked a little bit about sort of challenges with supervision. You know, having so many questions come in does kind of give you a little bit of the trends of where are the next big problems coming. So I guess my next question really has to do with sort of where do you see problems coming around the next corner? And also, do you fear that just so much of our current society is about acceleration? Is there any way that we can stay ahead of just the sheer volume of changes going on in the world to keep. Keep ethical?
- [57:09]
A
Well, those are great questions.
- [57:10]
D
Easy one, yeah.
- [57:14]
A
Another area, supervision is a big problem. We get two or three questions of those a day. I just about wear out my Expert on this, Dr. Cruz Ulima Cruz, is my expert in supervision. That is creating problems for. It's connected to what Jackie was just talking about. The clinical director comes to the BCBA and says, I've got three cases for you and somebody quit. So you're going to have to pick up these cases. And if you look at the ethics code, it says that as a bcba, you determine your caseload, essentially. And so the ethical thing for you to do is to say no. It's like you give it back to them saying, I'm really sorry, I can't take any more cases. Well, then that's going to cause some kind of ripple effect. Something's going to happen with those cases, and it may go to the most junior BCBA who doesn't know how to say no. So there's these things are connected down the line, and our code is not explicit enough about that. One central thing is caseload, and I think that there needs to be a much stronger statement in the code about that because so much revolves around that. Another question has to do with accepting clients. The code envisions a situation where the BCBA interviews families and determines whether they can accept this case because they have the resources, they have the time, they have the expertise. That's not the way it works. Somebody in the company does the interviewing and accepts the case and then hands it off to somebody. And what the, what the BCBA has to do is, I don't know anything about that. That is not my area. This is. This is a child that has severe sib. I'm good for small sib, but I'm not good for this stuff that. Where the kid's going to lose an eye or he's going to kill somebody. So I think that part of the code really needs some strengthening and it's a real weak spot. I think there's BCBAs are quitting our field because they can't handle that kind of caseload and they didn't know how to say no. So I think that's. That's one area. Another area that doesn't get much attention, but we get lots of questions about is dual relationships. There's not enough in the code that explains the different kinds of dual relationships you can get yourself into. And I think that needs to be expanded. And that's not going to be explosive like the New York Times thing, but it's something that can erode the quality of services, and it can erode the image of a behavior analyst as an independent professional. So the code is intended to protect the clients. It's also intended to protect the BCBA and to protect the profession. And sometimes people kind of forget that. It's like, oh, that little code. I know how to get around that. It's like, you don't want to get around it. No, you don't. That's not a good idea. Don't get around it. Get with it. You know, figure out what is ethical and what's the ethical thing to do. And do the ethical thing.
- [60:20]
C
Right.
- [60:21]
A
Okay.
- [60:22]
B
Well, that's excellent.
- [60:24]
D
Good advice.
- [60:25]
B
I guess the last thing, I don't. I don't know if it's maybe because I've been thinking about the future and thinking about these rapid changes, you know,
- [60:32]
A
thinking
- [60:34]
B
I'm the only one, I think, thinking about the future and rapid change.
- [60:37]
A
I guess the next big threat is AI.
- [60:41]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [60:43]
A
We're getting questions about. The company wants us to use AI, work up the assessments. So we have all this information from the family and from these tests that we've done, assessments, and now we need to come up with this. What about that? Or we want to use AI to do scheduling of rbts. I don't know about that either. Because there needs to be a match between the expertise of an RBT and the client that they work with. And right now they're doing this really clunky thing called block scheduling. So, you know, you have a client for two hours, another client for two hours, and it has nothing to do with. Are you any good with that kind of skill area that you're supposed to teach? So I think AI, just like I was. There was a story on NPR this morning about books, whole books being written, quote, self published by bots, and it's, it's pushing out books written by real people. Well, I think we have to worry about behavior programs written by a bot as opposed to a real behavior analyst. Who's sensitive to the needs of the client, knows how to do all that stuff. So I'd say going ahead, the next code needs to say something in there about AI and how it could be used ethically. And we need research on this. Not just is it, what's the practice of it? But we need to find out, you know, could it be useful and if so, could it be useful ethically? And so, you know, we just need a lot of research on that, I think.
- [62:15]
D
Yeah. Scheduling is a total nightmare.
- [62:18]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [62:20]
D
So to me, but you can't be putting student data into these systems. To me that is, that part is like a no brainer.
- [62:29]
B
Yeah. I don't trust where that information is going. To think, oh well, I'll just put in all my data and you know, then it'll generate my report. I don't trust that that data then isn't getting turned around to retrain the large language model. I don't know if that's how it even works. I have no clue.
- [62:46]
A
Well, we've already got a kind of simplified version of that happens already where here comes a new client, this client has a feeding problem or something. They look in their database, they find, oh, we had a program a couple years ago for feeding problems. We'll just plug that in, plug the kid's name in. It's the same thing. We'll save a lot of time and there's no match whatsoever. So that, really, that's a, that's a clear danger with AI.
- [63:10]
D
Yeah.
- [63:10]
A
Yeah.
- [63:12]
B
Well, I. So that we're not ending on a, on a sad, on a sad note, John, about sad future things that might. There'd be problems looking ahead if, if there were sort of one beacon of ethical thought, ethical practice that you could ensure is enshrined in the minds and hearts of BCBAs for the next hundred years. What would you say that. Whether it's a word of wisdom, whether it's a skill, whether it's a core principle, what would you say you would like to see just staying in everyone's minds, on everyone's lips going forward for our field to, to, to at least maintain or at least rebuild our ethical muscles in the future?
- [63:53]
A
Well, this is going to seem banal, but it's in the code about 10 different times and 10 different ways operate in the client's best interest, that, that might be it. If you, if you look for that, you'll see it many times and it's. I think it's intended to be, remind you over and over and over that's the fundamental if you do what's in the client's best interest, you'll probably be doing the ethical thing.
- [64:21]
D
Yeah.
- [64:22]
A
And you know, it's not in the best interest of the company. It's not even in your best interest. What's, what's in the best interest of the client might be a harder work for you. That's too bad. You do what's in the client's best interest. There's something the parents want that's not in the client's best interest. The child is your client, not the parents. What's in their best interest. So you end up having to be an advocate. So that would be my guess as to something that would be central and important and really kind of everlasting as part of our code. No.
- [64:56]
B
Well, Dr. John Bailey, thank you so very much for coming on the show. We are, we're so honored to have you on and to have just the chance to talk to you and ask you all these questions about history, about the hotline, about what's coming up next. Do you mind reminding our listeners about the, the new book? I'm sure they have, I'm sure they have a lot of the, you know, your previous books. But in terms of the new book out and then where they can reach out for the Ethics hotline, Ethics hotline
- [65:19]
A
is ABA ethics hotline.com it's pretty simple. If you can't remember all that, just write an ethics hotline to Google. It'll bring it to us. The, the board, even people write to the board for ethics questions and they'll say we don't answer ethics questions and they'll refer them over to us. So we'll do that that way. And this new book is called the Ethical Behavior Analyst Stevens, Bailey and Birch, published by Rutledge, our publisher. And I think it's a great read. I really do. I think it could be the sort of thing and if you look at the endorsement that we got from Dr. Pat Freiman, I think that tells a lot about the importance of this book for our field.
- [66:01]
B
Well, listeners, if you have not written in to the Ethics hotline, even just with like a, a hypothetical question, perhaps. I know the, the first time I emailed the hotline, I was like, I'll probably get a response in a day or two. Dr. Bailey, I think you emailed back within like less than 30 minutes. And the fact that I was like, it's, is this the John Billy I assumed it was an AI even though that wasn't a thing at the time. I was like, he's not emailing me back on. Who am I? I'm not any. It definitely is one of those moments of like, you know what? I am some. I am someone in the field. Because Dr. John Bailey has sent me an email. I still have it in my inbox still there. I can pull it up, whatever. So I want to say thank you for that.
- [66:39]
C
Yeah,
- [66:41]
A
happy to serve.
- [66:43]
B
Once more, we want to say a really big, big, huge thank you to Dr. John Bailey for coming on the show. He's one of our kind of white whales of podcast guests. We're very excited that we were able to get him kind of to celebrate the 10th anniversary of the show and our guest month. So just a real, real treat to have him on. Just an excellent, excellent resource and excellent to get a chance to talk and hear his firsthand experiences in being a part of the development of the ethics code that we use today. But before we totally wrap up the show, the last section, Pairings.
- [67:16]
D
Ah, yes. Da da, da da. It's time for pairings. Pairings is the part of the show where I tell you about other past episodes in our catalog that you might want to check out if you enjoyed this one. One, we have, you know, several ethics episodes, and we have a few where we did what we called an ethics mailbag where we pulled different scenarios to discuss. Two of those episodes are numbers 105 and 203, where we did an ethics mailbag with Dr. Darren Sush. Also episode 291, we talked about ethical scenarios with the how to ABA crew, so you can check those out. And then we have two other episodes where he talked about the history of the field. Episode 100, we discussed the history of ABA with Dr. Gina Green. And then episode 250, we talked about the history of ABA and psychology. That was with Dr. Mirari El Coro. So those might be ones you want to check out as well during the the pairing segment. I also like to recommend a snack to go with this episode. And so our snack today is Lucky Charms cereal, because Several times here Dr. Bailey said, oh, I was just so lucky that this happened to me. And I didn't get to say this with him present. But, you know, your luck is really what you make of it, and the more you behave, the more likely you are that you're going to encounter some positive consequences to your behavior. So I really think it's a testament, more so of the amount of behavior and effort and work that Dr. Bailey has put out into the world that now, in retrospect, looks like luck, but we could all use little luck so you can enjoy some lucky charms. And that was pairings. Please enjoy.
- [68:54]
B
All right, thank you Diana and thanks all of you so much for listening to the show. If you liked ABA InsideTrack, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to your podcast. You can also subscribe to us on YouTube or you can join us on our Patreon page, patreon.com aba inside track where you can subscribe at any level to get access to the episodes a week ahead of time. You can also subscribe at the $5 level to get access to our listener choice episodes where once a a season we put out a call to the listeners for what we should be recording that season and then you get a free CE for listening to those. And if you really love the show and we really appreciate it, you could subscribe at the $10 and up level to get access to our book club episodes the moment they come out as well as access to 2 CES for free for all of those book club episodes. Again, that's patreon.com/aba. Some final thanks again. Thanks to Dr. John Bailey. Also, keep a lookout if you have an email the ABA Ethics Hotline. I mean I hope it's because everything has just been going swimmingly well, but odds are you're going to be in an ethical quandary or you just have a general ethical question. We strongly suggest that you give the Ethics Hotline an email with some ethical questions. It really is fun.
- [70:03]
D
Also check out their FAQ section first because it could be that your enough that it's already listed there.
- [70:10]
B
What you should but I'd rather get an email back from Dr. John Bailey like I told in my story. But it's so fun to get emails from leaders in the field. Diana all right, well whatever works for you. Go to the Ethics hotline. You can also check out the new book the Ethical Behavior Analyst that has just been released as well as all of Dr. Dr. Bailey Dr. Birch's books on ethics for behavior analysts, skills for essential skills for behavior analysts. A lot of a lot of ways. A lot of ways to keep in touch with Dr. Bailey's thoughts on the matters of behavior analysis. We also want to make sure to give you that second secret code word. It's Arnold Palmer A R N O L D P A L M E R Arnold Palmer, the famous golfer and delicious drink. Some last thanks. We don't want to forget to say thanks to Dr. Jim Carr for for recording our intro Outro Music Kyle Sturry for our interstitial music and Dan Thabot of the podcast Doctors for his amazing editing work. We'll be back next week with another fun filled episode, but until then, keep responding. Bye.