(PREVIEW) Adventures in Special Education and Applied Behavior Analysis Book Club (feat. Dr. Merrill Winston)

Summary

Podcast Summary: (PREVIEW) Adventures in Special Education and Applied Behavior Analysis Book Club (feat. Dr. Merrill Winston)

ABA Inside Track – June 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this special book club preview episode, the hosts of ABA Inside Track—Robert Perry Crews, Diana Perry Crews, Jacqueline McDonald, and Alan Haberman—host a rich and candid interview with Dr. Merrill Winston, author of Adventures in Special Education and Applied Behavior Analysis. Marking the book’s ten-year anniversary, Dr. Winston joins to reflect on his motivation for writing, the ongoing challenges of behavior analysis in public school settings, and how his direct, conversational writing style is a central part of both his work and educational philosophy. The conversation explores institutional barriers, the mismatch between student needs and school expectations, strategies for effective collaboration, and why professional authenticity matters in ABA practice.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Origin and Purpose of the Book

• Real-World Relevance:
  Dr. Winston shares that the book is based on hard-earned experience consulting in public schools and was written to serve as a practical, real-world guide for behavior analysts, especially those entering public education from different backgrounds.
  • “It was a nice review of a lot of lessons I feel like I've learned the hard way. And I wish someone had told me about before I started working in public schools.” (Robert, 07:16)
• Repetitive Patterns in Schools:
  Across consulting hundreds of cases, Dr. Winston noticed similar issues and systemic patterns repeating in different classrooms and wanted to provide a resource that would give new BCBAs a “crash course” on what truly matters and goes wrong in schools.
  • “I just wanted to kind of put it all together so that, you know, people could benefit from it and I wouldn't have to be...constantly going out to each different classroom.” (Dr. Winston, 14:13)

2. Institutional Challenges in Special Education

• Schools vs. Institutions:
  Drawing from experience in both institutional and public school settings, Dr. Winston points out the persistent, institutionalized nature of both environments—their tendency to resist change, select unhelpful goals, and struggle with genuine adaptability.
  • “They're both institutions in the sense of we do things a certain way and don't want to change.” (Dr. Winston, 09:08)
• Universal Problem of Poor Goal Selection:
  Both settings often pick goals based more on appearance or compliance rather than what actually benefits students, resulting in significant frustration and behavioral issues.
  • “Goals they would never reach because they looked like appropriate, you know, goals that made them angry when you tried to teach them those kinds of things.” (Dr. Winston, 10:08)

3. Barriers to Effective ABA Implementation

• Management and Systems:
  Proper behavior change isn’t possible in poorly managed settings—management structures and staff alignment are crucial.
  • “You can't do behavior analysis in a setting where people are not managed properly because...it requires people to do certain things at certain times.” (Dr. Winston, 11:27)
• Layering Treatment on Top of Education:
  Schools are asked to implement "treatment" as well as education, despite lacking clinical infrastructure, which often leads to inadequate or conflicting approaches.
  • “...you are layering ABA onto what is not a hospital, it's a school. And so, you know, they are not set up to do behavioral treatment.” (Dr. Winston, 34:21)

4. The Need for Appropriate Curriculum and Skills Alignment

• Misaligned Academic Demands:
  The system frequently asks students with significant deficits to perform tasks they aren’t developmentally ready for, such as academic skills before foundational communication and social skills.
  • “They're in school being asked to do school things and they're supposed to be able to talk already...which is insane and still happens, by the way.” (Dr. Winston, 36:28)
• Developmental Catch-up:
  Dr. Winston advocates for preparing students by teaching foundational developmental skills before focusing on academics.
  • “We have to educate them on the proper things so they can get educated on the other things that we really would like to get them educated on. Right. That we're trying too soon. Like learning to write your name before you can talk.” (Dr. Winston, 37:49)

5. Communication and Professional Authenticity

• Writing with Candor:
  Dr. Winston deliberately writes (and speaks) in a straightforward, conversational style, believing that professionalism is about competence, not formality or jargon.
  • “Professional is not how you talk or the clothes you wear...Professional is the level of your game. Do you do what you do at a professional level as opposed to an amateur?” (Dr. Winston, 17:56)
• Against Alienating Jargon:
  Overuse of technical language and unnecessary formality, especially in ABA, can create distance and mistrust with teachers and parents.
  • “That's what alienates us, okay. That's why people so afraid of legal things because they use so much Latin...I think people feel that way a lot of times when we're using our jargon.” (Dr. Winston, 19:55)

6. Building Honest Collaboration in Schools

• Importance of Transparency and Motivation Alignment:
  Success in school teams requires adults to be honest about their motivations, constraints, and limitations—with each other and with families.
  • “People have to be honest and being honest is frightening for people. It's frightening for the person being honest and it's frightening for the person hearing the honesty.” (Dr. Winston, 23:20)
• Handling Meetings and Conflict:
  Litigation and conflict arise when parents perceive schools as incompetent or malicious; combining candor with genuine positive regard for students and alignment of goals is key.
  • “Whenever I've seen the school indicate we really like your kid...Now that's being candid while also being complimentary.” (Dr. Winston, 25:36)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On School Culture and Candidness:
  “They are like tiny little presidents...you know, Principles are from one another. Like, some don't want me there, and others do, and others do, but only for their own purposes.” (Dr. Winston, 15:04)

• On the Realities of Teaching:
  “What we're doing now, anybody who listens to this, this is not teaching. This is called telling...And telling has value. And people can learn some things from telling and it might change some of their behavior from being told, but it isn't teaching.” (Dr. Winston, 26:56)

• On Professionalism:
  “House...He is an expert. He is professional...Horrible bedside manner, very rude. He is the rudest, most expert physician ever...Professional is the level of your game.” (Dr. Winston, 17:56)

• On Foundational Skills vs. Academics:
  “If they're going to be in school and we are required to educate them, we have to educate them on the proper things so they can get educated on the other things that we really would like to get them educated on. Right.” (Dr. Winston, 37:00)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [04:31] – Introduction to Dr. Merrill Winston and the book’s context
• [06:00] – Dr. Winston on writing and underestimating the impact of his book
• [09:07] – Realization of curriculum and goals as a root of behavioral issues
• [11:27] – Discussion of management as a prerequisite for effective behavior analysis
• [14:13] – Reason for writing the book, repetitive patterns, and solutions
• [16:59] – Dr. Winston’s writing style and views on professionalism
• [23:20] – Handling difficult meetings, transparency, and the challenge of honesty
• [25:36] – Techniques for communicating candidly but positively with families
• [34:21] – Systemic issues with layering ABA “treatment” onto school environments
• [36:28] – Problems with mismatched academic expectations and development gaps

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Tone and Approach

The episode is witty, frank, and approachable, echoing the informal, direct style that Dr. Winston champions. There is a spirit of experienced practitioners talking honestly about the realities and frustrations in special education and ABA, balanced by a drive for pragmatic solutions and genuine empathy for students, families, and educators.

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For More

To hear the remainder of the interview, in-depth book discussion, and access continuing education credits, listeners are encouraged to join ABA Inside Track’s Patreon.

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking practical insights and authentic conversation around real-world ABA and special education challenges, with Dr. Merrill Winston’s characteristic candor and wit.

Transcript

[Diana Perry Crews]

Foreign.

[Robert Perry Crews]

Hey everybody. Welcome to this special preview of our latest book club episode, Adventures and Special Education and ABA by Dr. Merrill Winston. For those of you new to the show, welcome. This might not be the best episode to start with because we have our full length normal episodes, but but once a season we put out these book club episodes where we read a whole book and then discuss it sometimes, like with this episode, with the author themselves. These are typically worth 2 CES and are available immediately for our patrons. If you go to patreon.com abainsidetrack right now and subscribe at the $10 and up level, you'll be able to access all of our previous book clubs and our current released book club right away. You get those CES for no additional charge. It's just as a thank you for being a patron. And if you're not sure if you are interested in the book clubs, we do release these to the free feed about every year. They'll come out. You don't get the free ces, but you'll be able to listen to the audio so you can listen to some of our older versions of the episode. So whether you just want to enjoy a little preview of the episode now and then decide later or listen to some of our older episodes to get a feel for what you'll be getting, whichever one works for us. We're just happy you're here. Now for our preview, we're going to do something a little special. You're actually going to get a nice chunk of of Dr. Winston's discussion with me about the writing and the things he's learned since this book is released about 10 years ago. So we're going to cut that audio in right here and then I'll be back at the end to remind you if you want to get the rest of the episode where you can go. All right, so enjoy this snippet of our latest book club, including this interview with Dr. Winston. Hey everybody. Welcome to ABA Inside Track, the podcast that's like reading in your car, but safer. I'm your host, Robert Perry Crews and with me, as always, are my fabulous co hosts.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Well, hey there, Robert Perry Cruz. It's me, Jacqueline McDonald.

[Diana Perry Crews]

And it's me, Diana Perry Cruz.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

And I, the magnificent Alan Haberman book club guy.

[Robert Perry Crews]

And if Alan Haberman is a special co host, that means it must be a book club episode. Huzzah. Yes, we are wrapping up the 20252026 book club season by doing a reading and reflection on Adventures in Special Education and Applied behavior analysis by Dr. Merrill Winston.

[Diana Perry Crews]

How is this a wrap up? Is it the fiscal year? It's the last.

[Robert Perry Crews]

Our book club year is over.

[Diana Perry Crews]

Yeah.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

This is the last book club in the year.

[Diana Perry Crews]

The book club year starts fall, winter, spring, summer.

[Robert Perry Crews]

The book club year starts when a supervisor comes and gives you corrective feedback about the books you're reading. And it ends in the summer with a luau and barbecue, which is.

[Diana Perry Crews]

Oh, sweet.

[Robert Perry Crews]

Yeah, that's after the podcast, though.

[Diana Perry Crews]

Well, it's really when Allan comes in on an umbrella and then when the wind changes, that's when we know it's over.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Have to be odd years. I do that. Not even years.

[Diana Perry Crews]

Fair enough.

[Robert Perry Crews]

So we'll be discussing this book at length. However, before we get into our thoughts, we usually kind of start with some general thoughts. Go into the details of the book here in our book club. And if you are listening to this whole thing in the year 2026, that means you are a patron. We want to say thank you very, very much for being a patron at our $10 and up level so that you're able to get the whole shebang today. If you're listening to this into the far flung future, you may also be a patron who just joined later on, in which case thank you. Or you may just be a listener who waited the whole year until this came out on the free feed, in which case, like also thank you for listening. But you know, they're tiered thank yous, I think.

[Diana Perry Crews]

No, we thank everybody.

[Robert Perry Crews]

Well, we thank you. But like, you know, if, if it's 2026, you're a patron, like, you know, your thank you was like a really good thank you. Everyone else's, it was like a little, just a little, little less thankful maybe. We still thank you, but you know, you know how it goes. It's the hustle. And we'll be discussing this book. But before we do that, we were very fortunate in getting the chance to talk to the author, Dr. Meryl Winston, who some folks might have seen at conferences before. If so, you know what a ride this interview is going to be. And if you read the book, it. It's a lot like the writing of the book too. There's a very come to life, distinct voice. Yes.

[Diana Perry Crews]

In the book he talks about, he says like, oh, this is the person I would get to read, like to do my book, my audiobook. I'm like, obviously he would do his own audiobook. Right. Like, who else can have the voice of Merrill Winston?

[Robert Perry Crews]

Yeah. So before we get into any of the discussion of the book on this, it's 10 year anniversary. Why don't we start with a Fun interview with Dr. Winston talking all about the writing of the book, his thoughts. And then I asked a whole bunch of questions as someone working in schools about sort of how many of the techniques he discussed in the book sort of have changed over the past 10 years. So without any further ado, here is our interview with Dr. Merrill Winston, author of Adventures in Special Education and Applied Behavior Analysis. All right, so we are here with Dr. Merrill Winston, author of the book that we're going to be talking about, Adventures in Special Education and Applied Behavior Analysis, which depending on how old you are, you may or may not want to pair it with a viewing of Adventures in Babysitting, which was also quite enjoyable. But Meryl, thank you so much for coming on to talk to us about the book.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Very good. Christina Applegate, right?

[Robert Perry Crews]

Chris. She's. Don't tell mom the babysitter's dead.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Babysitting was the newest babysitter thing. Very good.

[Robert Perry Crews]

Elizabeth Shue. It was Elizabeth Shu from Karate Kid.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Was shoo. Okay. Yes, yes.

[Robert Perry Crews]

Thank you so much for coming to talk about, talk about the book. It's. It's celebrating a ten year anniversary. Yeah.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

I didn't know anything was celebrated. Anything. But, but you're very gracious. Yeah, I, I was thinking the other day it really needs a facelift because I even haven't looked at it in a long time and I honestly didn't really think many people were using. I knew some were, but I didn't think it was widely read at all. I had no idea it was.

[Robert Perry Crews]

It's. It's hard to get some of those books because that one was. What was it?

[Diana Perry Crews]

I have.

[Robert Perry Crews]

It was a Sloan Public. Sometimes I find like those books, I can find them on Amazon or they get on Amazon and they're like 500. I'm like, I'm not paying. You know, I don't care how good your book is. 500. Too much. But I think I got this one at the Babbitt conference. We have up here like all ten. Two years ago. It just was randomly. Someone was selling like here's a bunch of books. And I got one on consulting that I was looking at and then I saw yours and I'd had it on my wish list and it was like crazy expensive. And I was like, well, I will pay the price you're charging seller at the, at the Babbitt, you know, the professional bookseller.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Yeah, Gosh, yeah. I had a, like one in the itunes store that was like digital for the iPad, which was really cool because it had little videos that was only like 12 bucks. And then there's a Kindle version that I think is still in the store, I'm pretty sure, and that's like nine bucks.

[Robert Perry Crews]

That's a great price.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Well, not a PDF, but it'll. You can read it on a Kindle or similar e reader, whatever. But, yeah, version, you know.

[Robert Perry Crews]

Yeah, but I mean, spoilers. I. I know if folks are listening to the. Gonna listen to your first before we talk about the book itself. But I found as someone who's worked in public schools for a very long time now, it was a nice review of a lot of lessons I feel like I've learned the hard way. And I wish someone had told me about before I started working in public schools. And I think there's a huge group of bay analysts who are like, I'm going to go into public school, and they've only worked in private school. And I just feel so bad for. I'm like, I hope maybe I'll be your supervisor. But, like, half the supervisors I know, like, they're in the same boat as you, and they don't know what they're doing. I feel like your book really, really covers a lot of this sort of like, crash course of, like, you need to be thinking about these things as you enter public school. So I thought it was like a really great kind of like, not even introductory text, but like, just a very good. If you want to go to public schools, you might want to take a look through this book. So it was very, very good for, I think, specifically for that purpose.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Yeah, it's like, you know, if, like, you've never fought Vikings and you're just sitting around one day and go like, hey, go fight Vikings. And it's just like, well, maybe you should, like, like, find out about this first. You know, like, what's it like? Should you prepare in any particular way? Any kind of shield. Yeah, I'm just gonna, you know, it seems cool, so let's just. Yeah, no, yeah. That's what I learned is that it's a. It's a. It's a different. It's a different critter. The schools are different critters. Yeah. And like you said, I learned it the hard way. I was like, you know, someone once told me, he goes, you'll find that a lot of these problems are, you know, they really don't have good goals selected. They have the bad curriculum. And I'm like, don't tell me that, like, I'm a behavior analyst. I know what's going on. They're reinforcing inappropriate behavior, yada, yada, yada. And in fact, that is happening. But I found out. I was like, hold. Can I curse? I don't.

[Robert Perry Crews]

Yeah, go for it.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

I was like, holy shit. It is the curriculum. This. They're asking this kid to learn something that I would punch them over if I were the child. And that's what the child was doing. So it's. I was like, okay, yeah, I get that now. I, like, totally get that. I, like, it's. Yeah. And that. That became like. Like, super clear very fast. Like that. And that a lot of the things that I saw in the institution, which is where I spent my first nine years as a behavior analyst, I saw the same things in the school. It's just different. And, you know, what's funny or not funny, but just un. Interesting. They're both institutions in the sense of we do things a certain way and don't want to change. And, you know, so the institution was like, okay, it's an institution, but it also is institutional in the philosophical sense, just like schools are. And that's. That's where I found the similarities.

[Robert Perry Crews]

I was like, these are, like, the

[Jacqueline McDonald]

same kinds of problems, only with, like, kids, and they don't live here. But I'm seeing the same stuff. Yeah. And in the institutional setting, you think they didn't pick the wrong goals for people? Yeah, like, constantly. Like, constantly. Goals they would never reach because they looked like appropriate, you know, goals that made them angry when you tried to teach them those kinds of things. I. I experienced that with adults before ever going to schools.

[Robert Perry Crews]

It is sort of shocking to me how it feels like there's so many good assessments. There's so many sort of developmental checklists and profile. Like you think you could cobble together, you know, here's 10 good skills that you should be learning. Everyone should learn these skills. And I know some folks have. Like, I know Pat McGreevy has. And you mentioned Steve Ward a lot. Who I did. I did purchase both of. About his book about teaching games. I was able to get a copy of that after reading your book. I have not read that yet, but it's upstairs in my pile. O. Got to read this this summer.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

I've got that on my shelf. Pretty sure the one with Steve that has the clown. Clown hair on the red clown here. Yeah, that's all. That's all good stuff. And yeah, there is. Some people do already have a lot of stuff on that. I know Like Matt Sicoria, Paul Gavoni, and Anika Costa, they. They all have the behavior toolkit.

[Robert Perry Crews]

Yep.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Like, for schools, which I think is more of, like, management on a broader scale, which is. Which is needed. That's what it's all about. Like, you can. That's one thing I learned quickly is that you can't with. Especially with complex cases, you can't do behavior analysis in. In a setting where people are not managed properly because it. It requires people to do certain things at certain time. And that's kind of what management's about. You know, it's like, you should be here doing this between these hours. Like, and I. And I need to make sure you're where you're supposed to be doing what you're supposed to be doing at the time you're supposed to be doing. I mean, that's not all of management, but you got to admit, that's a big chunk of management.

[Robert Perry Crews]

Oh, yeah.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

And if that's not. If that's not going properly, if the management's poor and it's just like, this isn't happening, you know, that. That's what. The other thing I learned quickly is that if it's not a. Well, whether it's a school or a clinic, it doesn't matter if it's not well managed. It. It. It's really not amenable to doing some of the things that we need to do to get behavior change. That's. It's got to be well managed because people have to be very specific in their behavior. Yeah.

[Robert Perry Crews]

So, Meryl, your own. Your own background. You worked in the institutional setting as a behavior analyst and then made. Made the shift to schools, and then at some point said, time for a book like, could you talk to me a little bit more about kind of that. That process?

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Yeah. I didn't actually make a shift to schools, just for clarification. I did that while I was doing. I made a shift to crisis management. So I shifted to working for PCMA, which I did for about 20 years. And in doing that, part of what I did for the company is I did consulting, and So I did 10. For 10 years. I was like the behavioral consultant to assist the behavior analysts in Palm beach county schools. And so that's where I got the material for the book, because I went to, like, all the schools, and, you know, and I. And I saw, you know, great schools and not so great schools and well below not so great schools, but I saw all of them, you know, and I got to see the range of these things. But the reason I decided to write the book was that I had too much extra time. No, it was. It was that I found myself that the same themes kept coming back up in classroom after classroom, kid after kid. And I was like, I'm really getting tired in my reports of like. And I just counted them the other day, and it was like, 280 separate case notes on separate kids.

[Robert Perry Crews]

Wow.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

And I was like, I'm getting really tired of, like, saying the same things about different kids. And I found that, you know, there's, like, a group of very similar problems that we run into with behavior analysis. I was like, if I could just, like, outline the biggest ones and. And just show them to people and. And have them focus on problems like pro and look for problems, maybe that they will find this a little bit easier. Like, if they read this, I wouldn't have to say this to them. They'd already understand this, and they'd already have examples, and they'd already be able to relate to it, because I already have done that in the book. So I thought if. If people would just read this, if I then went and did a consult, it would be so much easier. Right. Than me having to, like, orient them, get them to think the way I'm trying to think about it, you know, et cetera. But that. I think that was the big motivation behind it. I just wanted to kind of put it all together so that, you know, people could benefit from it and I wouldn't have to be doing constantly going out to each different classroom. I was like, you know, if. And in fact, one principal that I went to, she bought the book for all her staff, you know, and that just shows you how different principles are from one another. Like, some don't want me there, and others do, and others do, but only for their own purposes. You know, there's all. It's the whole range. Right. You know, they're like tiny little presidents and. Well, it's kind of hard.

[Robert Perry Crews]

My supervisor, when I was. When I was coming up as. And doing my supervision for my certification, is now a principal. So it's very easy to sort of say. And I got to visit her school recently, and it was very nice. Like, this is how schools should be run by behavior analysts.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Yeah. You know, and it's. It's a. You know, I can appreciate their job and all they have to manage and. And whatnot. But, like, yeah, the. The. The school. What I found anyway, as a behavior analyst is that the. The success I had at the school, it was in direct relation to the principal's. Involvement and, like, how they. How they saw their students and their teachers set a vision for them, you know, this kind of a thing. And that's really. Because it set the tone for the entire school.

[Robert Perry Crews]

Speaking of tone, I. I know a lot of my questions I had were. Were more just about kind of extensions of the book, but one that I thought about the writing of the book. I've seen you speak before at conferences and webinars, and it was very clear, and you. You make no bones about it. It's in the introduction to the first chapter. This is going to be a book that's kind of like, you're Talking to me, Dr. Merrill Winston. Was there a point at which you're like, I'm going to write this to be very. A lot of bullets. It's going to be very straightforward? Or was it always, I'm writing it like I'm saying it or I don't want to write it?

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Yeah, it was always, I'm gonna. I'm gonna write it the way that I talk to people. And not only just the way I talk to people, but I'm going to write it the way people talk to each other. So if you're writing. Just as an example, if you're writing, you know, you cannot simply. Who the fuck talks like that? Like a newscaster, a politician. But. But everybody else says you can't. Okay? So why do you have to write it one way when you know you're going to say it the other way? And you know, everybody else feels more comfortable when you say it with a contraction? It's more. It's more casual. It's less. It's coming off as less authoritative. So. And I. I think what I was trying to demonstrate to people also is that professional is not how you talk or the clothes you wear or the purple streak in your hair. Professional is the level of your game.

[Robert Perry Crews]

Mm.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

So do you do what you do at a professional level as opposed to an amateur? Okay. It has nothing to do with. Are you well mannered? Okay. In the show House, Okay, The. The character. Right. House. He is a. He is an expert. He is professional. Okay. Horrible bedside manner, very rude. He is the rudest, most expert physician ever. Right. But people are conflating things so that they can, you know, control your behavior. Actually, I did. I did rein it in a little bit. I. That's why I use the ampersands and asterisks and dollar signs instead of actual F bombs. Because somebody said that, well, you know, some people might be offended. Someone that I know, and then might not take it seriously. And my reply to them was, you know, I'll do it. But here's. Here's what I generally think. Anybody who would be offended by me saying, what the fuck does that even mean, right, in the book? I don't want them reading the book, okay? They, they. They won't get it. They won't get where I'm coming from. They won't understand being real with people, and they just want to. And I don't want them reading it. Go read somebody else's stodgy book and enjoy yourself. Okay? Don't read my book. Nobody's making you. You have to purchase it. Nobody's forcing on you. It doesn't come with your food. You know, it's. It. It's.

[Robert Perry Crews]

Jesus.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Yeah, but I. I did think about that, but I wasn't. Here's the thing. I wasn't doing it really, to, like, try and impress professionals or get in a journal or anything like that. So I figured, why would I talk that way? Because this is the way I talk to teachers. And the book was also meant not just for behavior analysts, but the. For parents to be able to read it and stay engaged with it and understand it. So again, I wanted to talk. Well, how I'm going to talk to a parent. I'm not going to talk highly technical to a parent. Oh, yeah.

[Robert Perry Crews]

Or it's so important.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Yeah, it is. It really is. And it's kind of part of what. What alienates us, okay. That. That's why people so afraid of legal things because they use so much Latin. Okay. Like physicians. Right? You're, like, afraid they're like witches. Like, they have special language, you know?

[Robert Perry Crews]

Yeah.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Don't eat floribus unum me. Okay? Just compass mentis. You know, it's just. It's like they're spell casting and. And I think people feel that way a lot of times when we're using our jargon. You know, just look at me, I'm fancy. But, yeah, so I. I did have some concerns about that, but I said, what the hell? I'm gonna do it. I'm not doing this to support myself. It's not like, oh, man, everything's riding on this book. It's like, literally nothing was riding on the book.

[Robert Perry Crews]

So that's a lot of work for something that, you know, you're just like, on a whim.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Well, you know, I think that, like, just as an example, like, for some of Skinner's writings, I don't think he was. And I didn't Know him? Okay. I think I saw him once in person. That's the closest that got, right? Maybe. Maybe in an elevator somewhere. Yeah, I think I was actually in an elevator with him at an ADA conference many years ago. Yes. But that's about the closest I ever got. I forgot what I was going to say about Skinner. Oh. I don't think he was writing any of those books going, like, man, this is going to bring in so much cash. Okay. No. And I think part of the reason he wrote, whether it was a book or not, and this is kind of the reason that I wrote, I want to get my thoughts completely organized. Like, what do I actually think? And then I want to look at what I wrote and then. And say, like, was that any good or is this just bullshit? You know, because a lot of times if you don't write it out on paper and you're just kind of thinking it vaguely once you see it on paper and it's a clear stimulus, you're like, oh, so that was another reason I did it. I wanna. I wanna get all my thoughts down, which I did. So while I was writing it, it helped me complete some thoughts that I'd had about things that I never really, like, finished. So it was kind of for that to just like, to get these things out so I can look at them later. Yeah, so that was part of the reason too.

[Robert Perry Crews]

I kind of want to go into, you know, when you were talking about the writing, the tone, trying to communicate, writing in the way you would communicate with others. Try not to look like you're smarter, better than anyone. You're trying to kind of work collaboratively. I know one of the big challenges for a lot of BCBAs when they're going into school meetings is they tend to get stuck. They either become team parent or they become team school. And some are better than others at kind of coming up with a consensus or trying to get everyone to build bridges to, let's work. Let's. Let's put the Chinese child first and foremost. And sometimes it works great. And everyone leaves the meeting, they start it all hot and heavy and they. And they end all like, oh, we're so collaborative, we're ready to go. And other times, you know, I'll see you in court, I'll see you at mediation. You know, the next year of meetings is just going to be lawyered up and horrible. No one will solve anything. What are your top tips for folks who find themselves in those types of meetings in terms of either trying to deescalate and build the bridge Or I gotta say something everyone's gonna hate. How do I say it? That I'm true to the facts, I'm true to what I know, I'm true to my science, I'm true to myself. But I'm also just not being a jerk about the whole thing, which I think some people really worry that they're going to come off as mean, so they couch everything and they won't say facts.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

I, I think that on both sides this is, and this is difficult for people. People have to be honest and being honest is frightening for people. It's frightening for the person being honest and it's frightening for the person hearing the honesty. People don't usually like it. You know, they get through it and then they say thank you for your candor. But what they really mean is, I'm super pissed, okay? Because otherwise they'd say a little bit more than that. And I've been thanked for my candor before, so. But you know, without over sharing, people should be transparent about their motivations and honest. And I just read a post on LinkedIn which I thought was very true and that they were saying that people like to sugarcoat the kid's behavior problem, the teacher, and play it down. And there may be a number of reasons for that. I don't want more responsibility. I don't want people to think I can't handle it. I want the parent to think everything is going swimmingly and leave me alone. Now it could be any of those or any of a myriad of other things. My point being is that there's a lot of reasons for someone to feel that way, you know, so I think that, you know, the teacher, it's hard to be and people can do it, but it's hard to be honest without alienating people. So some people say, you know, here's what I would say. Parents get the most upset and I see the most litigation when two things are not kept in check. And those are the parent believing that the school is acting one out of incompetence or two, out of malice. Meaning you don't like our child and you don't like me and you want my kid out of here. And I've heard people say that if in the meetings. So, you know, and, and sometimes it is true and sometimes it is absolutely not true. Right. But that people think it sometimes, you know, it's likely true sometimes. And, and so, you know, if the parents, whenever I've seen the school indicate we really like your kid, I think he's funny, he's got A great sense of humor. There's a lot of things we really do like about him. Does he have some serious meltdowns that are causing a lot of friction in our classroom? Yeah, he does. And we really wish we could get it under control because we think he could be extremely successful. He's got everything he needs. But right now, you know, things are not going so well. Now that's being candid while also being complimentary. And it's, you know, here's the thing, you know, it's. You can't just say to people, I love saying this because it's just, every time I say it, it's just getting truer. What we're doing now, anybody who listens to this, this is not teaching. This is called telling. And some telling is really crappy telling and some telling is really good telling. And telling has value. And people can learn some things from telling and it might change some of their behavior from being told, but it isn't teaching. Okay. You know, and that's, that's a real time thing where there is kind of a, a back and forth. But I'm sorry, where did the question come from?

[Robert Perry Crews]

We'll also trade a bar just in terms of like those, you know, when you're sharing in meetings, you're trying to sort of build bridges or else you're trying to be. Have that candor that doesn't come off as I'm just trying to be to piss off. And certainly the positive statements about the student, the actual enjoyment of the student.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

The other thing was that they have to be transparent about their motivations. And that is, and some of them are. And this is good. Like the mom will just say as an example, I cannot continue to come in and pick him up. I am going to lose my job. Real world problems, right? And, and that is an understandable motivation. Right? And so that's an example where you know the school from the school's point of view. They just can't be, well, that's your problem. It's everybody's problem. You know, when, when a child is exhibiting behavior problems, it creates friction for the entire team. No one, no one is left out. Everyone is sucked into the black hole of the child's behavior. Okay? It affects everybody. And so it's, it's really important for people to be honest with each other about what's happening. Even if it's a little dicey when you're honest. But see, then people can actually move forward. Right? And, and everybody understands each other's concerns, right? Like the behavior analyst Understands the concerns the teacher, that it cannot be too attention intensive because she has, or he has 12 other children, whatever. And that would be one example where what I call it is misaligned motivations. And so when people have misaligned motivations, child suffers. And what we're trying to do is bring everybody's motivations not in perfect alignment. You'll likely never get that. Just closer, just a little closer. Right. So what does that mean? One person relaxes a little bit on their side and gives up a little bit. The other person also relaxes. Okay. Or, you know, the child, we increase their motivation and the adults, we decrease their motivation to teach a certain thing right now. And when we do that motivation's more aligned. They're not pushing so hard for it. Kids got more motivation to do it. Everything is more balanced out. Right. That's kind of what you're shooting for. And so it's a question of, like, with different players in the game that are not the child, how do you pretty much simply by talking with them, help align their motivations a little bit better? And the thing is, that's where the honesty comes in. Because if people are not honest about their motivations, you don't get anywhere. It stalls, you know, so if somebody says, oh, I'd be fine, it's just this. But it's really not that. Right. It's really something else. And you're not being honest about it. And because of that, we're acting upon what you're telling us your motivation is, and then things go sideways because we can't be, we can't get alignment because we don't really know where you stand. Right. And that's kind of the problem. Like, oh, I accept all children. Yeah, but you really feel like this kid was dropped on you and you're not happy about it. And you know what? You're not a bad person because you feel like the kid was dropped on you, but you probably should talk about it with somebody. You know what I mean? It's, it's, it's, it's it that the teacher's feeling about that. It's not like it's unimportant. It's very important and it has to be addressed. But the teacher can't hide it either. That's my point, you know, and that's, that's the painful thing. People don't like if a teacher hides. Had teachers that are honest and say, you know, Meryl, yeah, I'm, I'm happy to try with this kid, but I'm going To tell you straight up, I don't have the training to deal with this. And they have no problem telling me that. Then I have other teachers that assure me that everything's under control when all hell is breaking loose, you know, and so it's.

[Robert Perry Crews]

I never get those teachers. Those teachers always, like, blow my mind. It's like this. Like, are you in the same class as me? Like, this is horrible. Like, I don't want to be here. And, like, I'm professionally supposed to be able to deal with this. Like, why do you want to do this? Like, that's great deference. Learn.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Oh, gosh. But yeah, that's. That's what I try to go with. And I mean, it can be. Like I said, it can be. It can be difficult. Sometimes the school really does want the kid gone and. And the parents pick up on that real fast.

[Robert Perry Crews]

Yeah, I know I always have a real challenge when. Sometimes it feels like this is not the right school, the right placement for the student. But there's that, you know, that, that, that part of me that's saying, well, the issue is just everyone on the school side has these terrible, terrible priorities for, like, but they've got to learn trigonometry. And that's, you know, where the motivation to throw a chair is the height. And they're like, no, we won't bend on this for some reason. And, you know, you get a little stuck of, how do I convince the school side they need to make those changes? They need to practice the skills, you know, And I think your book lays it out very nicely of, like, it's not just the skill of, ah, escape. Teach them to ask for a break or, oh, teach them to have iPad time with, like. There's a lot of other skills that need to be taught and addressed within that context. But, oh, there's no time for that. Oh, there's so many district initiatives I can't do. And you just feel stuck. Like, I can't. I can't change this environment. I can't change your behavior. I almost want to, like, escape the child from the setting.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Here's one of the problems that just, it's just how it strikes me, at least. And schools which are charged with the education of our children, and even some of that is questionable how well that is done. And I'm not blaming any particular person or group of people. I'm saying it's shitty sometimes. All right? It's not uniform across our country. Right? So that. And so we already have a system that is not awesome. Okay. We don't this, this is, this is what? Oh, you froze up. Oh, you're good now. You're good. Okay, so that's kind of the baseline. There are pockets of excellence. Everybody knows this. But if you look at everything right, it's not great. Right. It's not great. So take that. It's not perfect at doing education. Now layer on top of that, we're asking you now to do treatment. Now. It's not that. Well, children with special needs shouldn't be there. No, that was established. They should be there and they should be educated. However, the education of those individuals is crossing over into what we would call treatment. And although our treatment involves learning and teaching. Right. It is treatment and they are not equipped to be clinicians. So we have ABA people come into it. But remember, you're layering ABA onto what is not a hospital, it's a school. And so, you know, they are not set up to do behavioral treatment. They don't have the flexibility to do it.

[Diana Perry Crews]

Right.

[Jacqueline McDonald]

And it's not the teacher's fault and it may not even be the principal's fault and it may not even be the superintendent's fault. As far as like, you know, what state laws are or statutes. Right. I really don't know that side of it, as you know that deeply. But my point is, I'm sure that there are many considerations that, that, that go into what happens on a day to day basis. What can happen? What flexibility do we have? What, what don't we, you know, like if you mix, if you miss 10 days, then x process starts. You know, we, we have to, we have to apply for this and then we have to file this form. Right. It's like, well, can't you just wait 14 days? No. All right. That kind of thing is not very amenable to like a lot of the things we have to do in treatment. The other problems are that if you look at children at young ages and this is just, it's just the way the educational system is right now. It's a little bit backwards in some regards that if you are highly gifted and you are very advanced in your education, it is not uncommon to see a younger child in a classroom with much older children because they're both working on the same curriculum. Everybody has seen this. 14 year olds in college. We've all, everybody knows about this. This does happen. However, if you have special needs, you don't necessarily go to someone that knows that has the same repertoire and skill deficits that you do. Sometimes you go with someone who's totally ready for school. And you are not ready for school at all. You are the correct age for school. This drives an entire problem. If kids come in, for example, nonverbal, which many of them do, this drives all other sorts of problems because now they're in school being asked to do school things and they're supposed to be able to talk already.

[Robert Perry Crews]

Really?

[Jacqueline McDonald]

Well, that's, that's what they're typically developing peers are doing. Right. And that's what the school is set up for. Right. So what should they be teaching them? They should be teaching them the kinds of skills that their same aged peers typically developing already know. Okay. And not academics. Why? Because they haven't even learned the things that their peers already knew before they came into pre K. Sharing, following adult instructions, giving up reinforcement, all that, all that business. That is what they'd be teaching in kindergarten and first grade. And there'd be no academics. There'd be none. It would be, it would be called like, you know, I don't know what you would call it, like educational preparatory time. Where we work, we work on child development skills and social interaction and, and cooperating with others and adults and very minimal. You know what I'm saying? You get what I'm saying, right? Oh yeah. If they're going to be in school and we are required to educate them, we have to educate them on the proper things so they can get educated on the other things that we really would like to get them educated on. Right. That we're trying too soon. Like learning to write your name before you can talk. Which is insane and still happens, by the way.

[Robert Perry Crews]

I know. We hope you enjoyed this preview of our full length book club episode. If you want to hear the end of the interview as well as our discussion of the book and, and some of our favorite parts or parts that we either had questions about or some discussion about, you're going to need the full thing. And the only way to get that is to go to patreon.com abainsidetrack and sign up at the $10 and up level. We have access to all of our other book clubs as well. Once you sign up and you get two CES for all of those book clubs, no additional charge, as well as discounts for other CES in our store. We really hope you join us there. Otherwise we'll see you here for our next full length episode in a couple of days. Keep responding. Bye.