ABA Inside Track Book Club Preview: The Science of Consequences

Podcast: ABA Inside Track
Host: Rob and Dr. Susan Schneider (guest)
Date: January 3, 2025
Episode: PREVIEW - The Science of Consequences Book Club

Episode Overview

This special book club preview features an insightful interview between host Rob and Dr. Susan Schneider, author of The Science of Consequences. The episode delves into Dr. Schneider’s background, the decade-long process of writing her interdisciplinary book, her approach to making science accessible for the public, and her current advocacy and research in behavior analysis applied to climate change. The conversation highlights the book’s synthesis of behavior analysis, genetics, developmental psychobiology, and broader behavioral science, as well as the challenges and rewards of science dissemination and cross-disciplinary collaboration.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. Susan Schneider’s Journey to Behavior Analysis

[02:09–04:57]

• Started out in engineering during the 1970s–80s, but gender barriers led her to switch fields.
• Joined the Peace Corps, then pivoted to behavior analysis after being influenced by B.F. Skinner’s Beyond Freedom and Dignity in high school.
• Earned her PhD at the University of Kansas (worked with Ed Morris); career included academic appointments and five years as a developmental psychobiologist at FIU.
• Developed expertise in mathematical modeling, developmental psychobiology, and teaching a wide range of psychology topics.

Quote:

“Here's learning principles—Operant and Pavlovian, both—that are such a critical part of all these other areas of the behavioral sciences. Can we have a book for the public that will kind of integrate everything together…with examples, that’s not too technical, that covers the range, and that has some humor, ideally…”
— Dr. Susan Schneider [03:44]

2. Writing The Science of Consequences: Process & Philosophy

[04:58–11:24]

• The book took approximately ten years to complete (2000–2011), evolving through part-time to full-time work, finding an agent, and studying science writing for the public.
• Major challenge: balancing scientific rigor and accessibility, especially in technically demanding topics like epigenetics.
• Storytelling and logical structure were central—intentionally avoided a textbook style in favor of narrative flow, using research examples as “mini stories.”
• Schneider consulted widely and tailored the book for a diverse audience, aiming for concepts that would resonate both with scientists and lay readers.

Quote:

“It was an ongoing search for the happy medium where you cover the things that you think are most important…in a readable way, and you have chapters…that fit reasonably neatly and that lead reasonably neatly one into the other, you know, to create that sense of story.”
— Dr. Susan Schneider [09:37]

3. Storytelling & Example Selection

[11:24–15:22]

• Drew from decades of reading, teaching, and research, plus expert consultations, to select examples that were both illustrative and engaging.
• Deliberate “winnowing process” to ensure each example clarified core concepts; prioritized those that also had real-world application or broad appeal (e.g., climate change).
• Emphasized the necessity (and difficulty) of blending entertaining storytelling with scientific substance, noting influences like Stephen Jay Gould and Stuart Vyse.

Quote:

“Once you get a few chapters actually written, Rob, then you have a voice for that book. And then the other chapters all have to match that.”
— Dr. Susan Schneider [17:14]

4. Integrating Disciplines and Building Bridges

[19:47–27:02]

• Public science writing voice modeled on introductory psychology teaching: clear, connection-focused, for readers of all backgrounds.
• Stressed the importance of showing how operant and Pavlovian learning principles permeate all fields of psychology and beyond (economics, biology, cognitive science, etc.).
• Advocated for interdisciplinary collaboration—less focus on disciplinary silos, more on shared scientific goals.

Quote:

“I prefer just to have science and everyone working together productively…with our different special backgrounds, of course, different areas of expertise.”
— Dr. Susan Schneider [25:31]

5. Nature, Nurture, Genetics, and Evolution in the Science of Consequences

[21:28–24:45]

• The opening chapter on nature and nurture was especially stimulating for both the author and podcast panel, serving as an integrative foundation for the rest of the book.
• Discussion highlighted behavioral science contributions to understanding gene-environment interactions and evolution, with an emphasis on flexibility and integration.

Quote:

“So much of it is driven by learning principles. And so, behavior analysis is a really important part of that mix. And it's just such an exciting area.”
— Dr. Susan Schneider [24:08]

6. Science Communication Across Disciplinary Lines

[27:21–38:09]

• Schneider and Rob explored the difficulties of communicating behavioral principles to audiences wedded to mentalist or cognitivist frameworks, especially in education and therapeutic settings.
• Discussed common ground via cognitive-behavioral approaches, highlighting that practical efficacy often overrides terminological disagreements.
• Stressed the value of empathy, bridge-building, and adapting to the language of other disciplines.

Quotes:

“It's so important to build bridges and find common ground. And so often in other areas, we have to use different terminology…it's just a reality we all have to deal with.”
— Dr. Susan Schneider [37:38]

7. Behavioral Science and Climate Change Action

[39:23–52:16]

• Dr. Schneider discussed why, post-book, she dedicated herself to applying behavioral science to climate change—describing it as “mainly a behavioral problem,” especially at the policy level.
• Behavioral economics, community-level change (OBM for sustainability), and the combined need for bottom-up and top-down interventions were emphasized as critical.
• Detailed the most effective individual actions (from high-cited research): sustainable family size, green energy, reducing car/air travel, plant-based diet (especially less beef and some cheeses), and energy-efficient home appliances.
• Advocated for multi-level intervention: personal behavior, social norm change, and policy—crediting both behavioral analytic and broader behavioral science contributions.

Quotes:

“In many respects, meeting this challenge of climate action is a behavioral problem, mostly policy, because that's been the most effective change process worldwide for getting greenhouse gas emissions down.”
— Dr. Susan Schneider [41:24]

“Behavior analysis has an important role to play here. So that's one of the things I do is try and get more behavior analysts into this field, you know, and helping to get these community level changes that we need.”
— Dr. Susan Schneider [52:03]

8. Memorable Anecdote: Lunch with B.F. Skinner

[53:01–54:19]

• Dr. Schneider recounts sharing a peanut butter and jelly sandwich lunch with B.F. Skinner in his Harvard office—after misunderstanding an invitation. Their shared interest in environmental issues bonded the encounter.
• Story is also detailed on her book website: scienceofconsequences.com

Quote:

“We split a slice—like peanut butter and jelly or something. We ate it right there in his office and it was great. It was really so special for me.”
— Dr. Susan Schneider [54:12]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On integrating story and science:
  “It was an ongoing search for the happy medium…to create that sense of story.” [09:37]
• On radical behaviorism:
  “The term really means thorough, radical, not in the sense of extreme, but…including private events…Skinner did always include private events.” [26:15]
• On addressing climate change:
  “We need to act on this…in many respects, meeting this challenge of climate action is a behavioral problem, mostly policy…” [41:01]
• On the scientist’s role in advocacy:
  “Everyone needs to work on [climate change] to the degree that they can. I hope they will.” [52:30]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Dr. Schneider’s background and path to behavior analysis: 02:09–04:57
• Writing the book: challenges and strategies: 04:58–11:24
• Storytelling, research examples, and book structure: 11:24–19:26
• Voice/tone and teaching vs. public writing: 19:26–21:28
• Nature/nurture and the book’s introductory chapters: 21:28–24:45
• Disciplinary boundaries and radical behaviorism: 24:45–27:02
• Communication and building common ground: 27:21–38:09
• Climate change, behavioral science, and policy: 39:23–52:16
• Lunch with B.F. Skinner: 53:01–54:19

Recap & Tone

The episode is collegial, thoughtful, and encouraging, with Dr. Schneider and Rob exploring both the intellectual and practical challenges of integrating behavior analysis with the broader sciences and public policy. Dr. Schneider’s tone is humble, optimistic, and bridging, always emphasizing partnership—whether in writing for a mixed audience, engaging other disciplines, or working toward climate solutions. The anecdotes (from the painstaking writing process to her stories about Skinner and activism) keep the episode personable and memorable for listeners.