Episode #579: Marketing EMDR Therapy, feat. Lilly Risch

Summary

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Abundant Practice Podcast – Episode #579: Marketing EMDR Therapy, feat. Lilly Risch

Release Date: May 20, 2026
Host: Allison Puryear
Guest: Lilly Risch

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the nuts and bolts of effectively marketing an EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) therapy practice. Host Allison Puryear chats with EMDR therapist, consultant, and group practice owner Lilly Risch about building a sustainable, peaceful therapy caseload, the unique nuances in communicating the value of EMDR, and how trauma therapists can authentically reach their ideal clients—without burning out.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Lilly's EMDR Journey and Mission

(02:16–03:57)

• Lilly discovered EMDR first as a client—“I started with EMDR as a client in my own personal therapy. And then in 2018 I became EMDR trained because I was just like, this is...Amazing.” (02:26, Lilly)
• She unintentionally filled her caseload by authentically sharing her passion for EMDR, eventually growing into a group practice owner outside Milwaukee.
• Emphasizes her mission: “I want EMDR therapists to be visible and present and confident and have full caseloads, but not just full caseloads. The key is peaceful caseloads.” (03:37, Lilly)
• Discusses how burnout is rampant, especially with high-volume trauma caseloads—“If we're seeing 30 EMDR clients a week, I believe that's a recipe for burnout.” (04:49, Lilly)

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The Unique Challenge of Marketing EMDR

(05:23–10:01)

• Clarifies that, uniquely, EMDR is a treatment modality that clients often actively seek: “There are a few modalities for which that's an exception because people are specifically looking for it.” (05:51, Allison)
• EMDR is complex, and explaining it to the public typically fails when therapists use technical jargon:
  • “The default is 'EMDR is an eight phase protocol'...if you say that to somebody in the community, it’s way over their head.” (06:34, Lilly)
  • Focusing only on “eye movements” risks misleading clients and may even cause harm if clients seek quick results: “...sometimes that brings clients in the door...then can create actually like flood our clients and create some, you know, harm sometimes if we're moving too fast.” (07:07, Lilly)

Solution: Simplify & Focus on Outcomes

• “I like to talk about how EMDR is a way that we see symptoms that's very different than just managing them...We want to actually understand the root of them and shift them so that you no longer have to live with panic attacks, anxiety, imposter syndrome.” (07:21, Lilly)
• Avoid jargon; center messaging on what the client wants and needs to know to trust you and the process.

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Messaging for the Right Audience

(10:22–13:46)

• Use language that resonates with clients’ daily reality, not just clinical labels:
  • “Help[ing] EMDR therapists...define who they're for. That's a question I ask my members. Who are you for?” (13:04, Lilly)
  • Example: Instead of “early attachment trauma,” say, “adults who didn't get what they needed when they were very little or who feel disconnected from their relationships or life.”
• Specificity and relatability are powerful: “Words like that help people feel seen, and we need our audience to feel seen.” (13:47, Lilly)
• Niching down around “symptoms that don't make sense” and communicating how EMDR addresses their root can differentiate your practice.

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The Importance of Empathy, Timing, and Language in Marketing

(16:16–17:51)

• Marketing should leave the client feeling validated and hopeful: “When done right, you're leaving your person feeling like, wow, like she's in my head. This is validating. This is like, I have hope now.” (16:24, Allison)
• Meet the client where they are—use softer language that acknowledges protective instincts toward family and life experience (“you came from a chaotic family” vs. “you had an abusive parent”). (17:28, Allison)
• EMDR marketing should differentiate without disparaging other therapies: “Being able to differentiate without putting any other therapies down is really...important to me.” (17:51, Lilly)

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The Therapist’s Inner Work: Boundaries, Value, and Burnout

(18:45–21:05)

• EMDR therapists, especially those from caregiving or social work backgrounds, must address their family-of-origin narratives and boundaries to avoid unsustainable caseloads and burnout.
  • “We are not scared of intense things...Recipe for burnout...so we have to really work on shifting our narratives about being a therapist.” (19:16, Lilly)
• Many struggle with setting and raising fees: “We don't have any extra reimbursement for the amount of work that we have to do and financial investment to be able to heal trauma and change symptoms and change nervous systems. It's a very tall order.” (19:56, Lilly)
• Acknowledge that not every client or therapist is ready for EMDR—and that’s okay.

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Empowering Therapists to Be Visible

(22:59–24:59)

• Visibility is crucial: “I just want EMDR therapists to feel empowered to have these conversations. And I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done in general that therapists aren't taught how to do that.” (22:59, Lilly)
• Many therapists “aren’t being found,” not due to hiding, but due to the fear or uncertainty about marketing. (23:29, Allison)
• Marketing as Service: “Marketing is an act of service. Good marketing is good for everyone.” (24:18, Allison)

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Financial Self-Care, Pricing, and Navigating the System

(25:00–27:49)

• Therapists must advocate for both their own and their families’ needs and wants, not just those of clients.
  • “It's not all just your needs are important, but your wants are important too. And it's going to keep you in this field longer if both your wants and your needs are covered.” (25:17, Allison)
• Financial realities: Difficulties with longer EMDR sessions (often 90 minutes) vs. insurance reimbursement.
• Price increases are necessary and often overestimated in terms of client impact.
  • “We’re the ones responsible for giving ourselves raises. And we need to at least cover the cost of living increase from this year to last year.” (27:01, Allison)
• Importance of retirement planning and long-term security for therapists.

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Membership & Community for EMDR Therapists

(09:06, 28:09–29:38)

• Lilly announces the launch of Overflow, her business coaching group/membership for EMDR therapists, with a free inaugural training.
  • “I'm creating a business coaching membership for EMDR therapist where we talk about this. Exactly. It is launching in June and I'm doing a free training on May 29.” (09:06, Lilly)

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Notable Quotes

“I want EMDR therapists to be visible and present and confident and have full caseloads, but not just full caseloads. The key is peaceful caseloads.”
— Lilly Risch (03:37)

“If we're seeing 30 EMDR clients a week, I believe that's a recipe for burnout. I don't think a nervous system can do that.”
— Lilly Risch (04:49)

“There are a few modalities for which that's an exception because people are specifically looking for it.”
— Allison Puryear (05:51)

“EMDR is complex...The default is 'EMDR is an eight phase protocol'...if you say that to somebody in the community, it’s way over their head.”
— Lilly Risch (06:34)

“We want to actually understand the root of [symptoms] and shift them so that you no longer have to live with panic attacks, anxiety, imposter syndrome.”
— Lilly Risch (07:21)

“Words like that help people feel seen, and we need our audience to feel seen.”
— Lilly Risch (13:47)

“Marketing is an act of service. Good marketing is good for everyone.”
— Allison Puryear (24:18)

“It's not all just your needs are important, but your wants are important too. And it's going to keep you in this field longer if both your wants and your needs are covered.”
— Allison Puryear (25:17)

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Key Timestamps

• 02:16 – Lilly’s introduction, EMDR journey, and mission
• 03:37 – The idea of a “peaceful caseload”
• 05:51 – The unique marketing needs of EMDR
• 06:34 – Common mistakes in how EMDR is explained
• 07:21 – Shifting messaging: healing vs. managing symptoms
• 09:06 – Lilly’s upcoming business coaching membership
• 13:04 – Defining your ideal client in simple, human terms
• 16:24 – The goal of emotional validation in marketing
• 17:28 – Using softer, more palatable language in trauma narratives
• 19:16 – Burnout and therapists’ family-of-origin work
• 22:59 – Empowering EMDR therapists for visibility
• 24:18 – Marketing as an act of service
• 25:17 – The importance of both needs and wants for therapists
• 27:01 – Annual fee increases and financial self-care
• 28:09–29:38 – Information about Lilly’s Overflow membership and how listeners can connect

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Resources & Where to Find Lilly

• Instagram: @ForwardHealingTherapy
• Group Practice Website: forwardhealingtherapy.com
• Overflow Membership: Free training on May 29, 2026 (sign up via Instagram or website).

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Tone & Takeaway

Warm, validating, and action-oriented, this episode empowers trauma therapists to step into visibility and sustainability—focusing on authentic, simplified messaging, and self-worth, with practical tips for thriving in EMDR private practice. It’s a must-listen for anyone feeling daunted by the idea of marketing trauma therapy or concerned about burnout while trying to serve their community.

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Transcript

[Lily Risch]

Foreign.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

Hi, welcome to the Abundant Practice Podcast. I'm Alison from Abundance Practice Building. I have a nearly diagnosable obsession with helping therapists build sustainable, joy filled private practices. Just like I've done for tens of thousands of therapists across the world. I'm excited to help you too. If you want to fill your practice with ideal clients, we have loads of free resources and paid support. Go to abundance practice building.com Links all right, onto the show. So I've talked about therapy notes on here for years. I could talk about the features and the benefits in my sleep. But there are a couple things I want you to know about therapy notes that doesn't typically make it into an ad script.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

First is that they actually care if

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

you like their platform. They don't only make themselves available on the phone to troubleshoot so you don't pull your hair out when you get stuck. They also take member suggestions and implement those that there's client demand for. Like Therapy Search, an included listing service that helps clients find you internal and external secure messaging, clinical outcome measures to keep an eye on how your clients are progressing. A super smooth, super bill process, real time eligibility to check on your client's insurance. In my conversations with the employees there at all levels, they all really believe in their product and they want you to love it too. Second, they are proudly independently owned. Why should you care about that?

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Because as soon as venture capital becomes

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

involved, the focus shifts from making customers happy to making investors happy.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Prices go way up.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

Innovation plateaus. Making more money with as little output as possible becomes the number one focus. With over 100,000 therapists using their platform, they've been able to stay incredibly successful and they don't have to sacrifice your experience to stay there. You can try two months [e-mail] with the coupon code Abundant.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Welcome back to the Abundant Practice Podcast. I'm your host, Allison Per, founder of Abundance Practice Building. I'm here with Lily Risch and we are going to be talking about EMDR Therapy, how to market it, what's going on so that we can get some clients in the door for those of you who are EMDR therapists. So thanks so much for being here, Lily.

[Lily Risch]

Yeah, I'm so excited to be here.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

Yeah.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

So tell me, how did you get into being a therapist? Emdr Helping therapists with marketing. Emdr. Tell me all of it.

[Lily Risch]

Yes, absolutely. So I started with EMDR as a client in my own personal therapy. And then in 2018 I became EMDR trained because I was just like, this is. This is Amazing. I want to be able to help my clients heal and was always feeling like I was getting stuck with them and not able to help them move past their symptoms that were. Keep that, you know, trauma symptoms that were keeping them stuck, you know, fast forward. I started using it with my clients. I loved it. I became certified. I became a consultant in the fall. This. This fall. And at the same time, built my solo practice, went on a wait list, marketed EMDR really, sort of unintentionally, just because I love it. I think it works. I think it heals, and I want people to heal. That's what I want. And then I built a group practice and have had a group practice here in Milwaukee, outside of Milwaukee, for the last two years now. I want to help EMDR therapists do the same if they want a solo practice or if they want a group practice. I want EMDR therapists to be visible and present and confident and have full caseloads, but not just full caseloads. The. The key is peaceful caseloads.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

I love that distinction. Right? Mm. Yeah. Especially when you're working with trauma. The people who come to me who are like, I have to change my niche. 90% of them are trauma therapists.

[Lily Risch]

Wow.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Who have been doing it a long time. And. And I think the combination of, you know, they've. There might have been a time when it was really easy to get their, you know, 2021 through 2023. Like, it was really easy to get clients in the door compared to now.

[Lily Risch]

Yes.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

And they still have a love. They feel guilty leaving trauma, but for them, just, you know, what's going on in their life, what's going on in the world, they need to make a shift. And if we can make the marketing part easier and peaceful and the flow flowing, then it takes away a lot of the stress that might be a precursor for switching their niche. So.

[Lily Risch]

Absolutely. Before I was a therapist, I was in child welfare and medical social work, and I'm an LCSW by trade, so there's a whole other layer of being a social worker in the field and increasing our fees and all of that. Those pieces. But having experienced burnout myself, I know what that feels like. And I know that if we're seeing 30 EMDR clients a week, I believe that's a recipe for burnout. I don't think a nervous system can do that.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

No.

[Lily Risch]

In a real. When we're doing relational healing, which is what we're doing when we're doing trauma therapy, so.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yes. And so a lot of people listening are like, Allison, you always say they don't care how the sausage gets made. Talking about your modality isn't that effective with emdr. That's an exception. There are a few modalities for which that's an exception because people are specifically looking for it.

[Lily Risch]

Yes.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

So let's talk about marketing and EMDR practice.

[Lily Risch]

Let's talk about it. I can start. I have a lot to say about it.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

Say it, do it.

[Lily Risch]

Where do I start? Well, you know, I think that one of the hard things as an EMDR therapist is we are doing this. We've come out of this really in depth, complicated, neuroscience based training. And then we are visible, for example, on a podcast or instagram. Instagram or LinkedIn or networking event. And then we're trying to explain EMDR. EMDR is very complicated.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yeah. There's not a sound bite.

[Lily Risch]

It's so complicated. And so we though coming out of the training, I think the default is EMDR is an eight face protocol that uses the AIP model. And if you say that to somebody in the community, it doesn't. It's way over their head.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Mm. Yeah.

[Lily Risch]

Or if we go right into a common mistake I see is we go right into what is eye movements, and we use eye movements to reprocess trauma. Okay. Yes, that is true. And there's so much more to that than just eye movements, which I am kind of on the soapbox, really wanting to shift that narrative because sometimes that brings clients in the door, then wanting to just move quickly to the eye movements that then can create actually like flood our clients and create some, you know, harm sometimes if we're moving too fast. So I like to talk about how EMDR is a way that we see symptoms that's very different than just managing them and helping you build skills to manage them. We want to actually understand the root of them and shift them so that you no longer have to live with panic attacks, anxiety imposter syndrome.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Right.

[Lily Risch]

So I think that there's a lot of. There is a lot of shifts. There are a lot of shifts that need to happen for EMDR therapists when we're moving from coming out of basic training and the. All of that deep education and clinical work to talking to our audience in a way that they understand.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yes. As a therapist who is not trained in EMDR myself, but has been a client in EMDR and had incredible results.

[Lily Risch]

Right.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Like, you know, I'm a therapist, so I feel like I should understand at least, like, the words being spoken. I would look at like, you know, I'd have students who had an EMDR page. And I'd be like, I got to be honest with you. Like, I'm trained in a lot of things.

[Lily Risch]

Right.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

And this page doesn't make any sense to me. So knowing your audience and really like you, you don't have to tell them all the details in order for it to impact them. In fact, that's not going to help them. It's just going to go over all of our heads who aren't trained. But being able to, like, write it for a layperson, like, what is it that they want to understand and need to understand, to trust it and trust you.

[Lily Risch]

Absolutely. And I think that's really helpful for people to hear that for you, even as a therapist. Very you far along in your career. That's over your head. Even. So that's a part of what I'm. The other piece of what I'm doing, which I didn't share, is I'm creating a business coaching membership for EMDR therapist where we talk about this. Exactly. It is launching in June and I'm doing a free training on May 29 for EMDR therapists, which is just come as you are and then we'll be talking about the membership from there. But I struggled with that in my own business coaching. Wonderful, Wonderful business coaching. Just didn't get the specifics of what we're doing with EMDR and how we can build a trauma therapy practice. Marketing and messaging emdr. But I think it's really important for people to hear that it is kinder to speak to our audience and to really simplify our messaging. And I think it's important, you know, being from the view of the therapy chair, it's so hard to understand EMDR without actually doing it.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yes. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like ifs in that way. Like, if you try to explain ifs, it's kind of like that sounds. And I've also been a client with ifs where I'm like, look, I don't know how it works and it's super weird, but it's pretty magical and how I've described both those modalities, you know?

[Lily Risch]

Yes. So one thing I work with EMDR therapists on is what's your elevator speech? And that depends on who you're talking to, where you and where you are. It could be as simple as EMDR helps heal trauma in a way that lasts. EMDR gets the root of trauma symptoms. EMDR is deep healing. You know, something like that. That's as simple as that.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yeah. And if it's in a conversation, you know, you can be like, I can nerd out with you if you want me to. But a lot of people glaze over.

[Lily Risch]

Exactly.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

And that way, if they are interested in more of the intricacies of it, then you have an opportunity to go into it. But they're not like, oh my God, walk away from me.

[Lily Risch]

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

So, okay, I think about all the pillars of marketing. So when we're doing different marketing strategies, we always need to be coming from like what our clients are understanding. We need to be writing for their understanding. We also need to be writing for their interest. And like, I'm thinking about website copy or any sort of content that you're creating on social. And part of that is specificity to their pain.

[Lily Risch]

Yeah.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

So talk to me about how to. We have this interesting dynamic specifically with trauma where a lot of people are like, I have anxiety and underneath it is the trauma. So if you're, if your ideal client doesn't identify as a trauma survivor.

[Lily Risch]

Right.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Then you don't want to be like, I do EMDR for trauma.

[Lily Risch]

Yes, exactly. Yes.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

So gearing it towards whatever your ideal client is experiencing in their daily life or their weekly life, whether it's panic attacks or, you know, like you mentioned a few things a few minutes ago of like, this can help. That this can help imposter syndrome. Imposter syndrome may be rooted in drama, you know, like it's so making sure that you've got that niche ideal client that you really love working with so that you're only talking to them. Yeah, you'll still get the others. You'll still get other people, but you're only talking to them and what they actually care about and not talking about an experience they don't feel like they have or they might have experience, but that's not relevant. That happened in college, you know, that's not even relevant to my experience as an over functioning mom, you know, that kind of thing.

[Lily Risch]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I can all relate to that.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Right.

[Lily Risch]

Yeah. So it speaks to, first of all, helping EMDR therapists, just like any other therapist define who they're for. That's a question that I ask my members. Who are you for? For example, I use myself when I was building my solo practice and I still have a caseload. I'm for adults with early attachment trauma. I could get more simple than that because people like, what the hell is attachment trauma? I'm for adults who didn't get what they need when they were very little or with gaps in memory or with feeling like they're not connected to their relationships or their life.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Right, Right.

[Lily Risch]

Words like that help people feel seen, and we need our audience to feel seen. As EMDR therapists, we understand that's a big piece of attachment, so we can apply what we know to our messaging that will help us 100%. We need, and we want our community to feel seen and heard. So we can ask ourselves things like, okay, I want to work with overachievers who are experience panic attack. That could be airplane phobia. That could be speaking in front of a crowd phobia. I mean, that could be all of these different Imposter syndrome, all these different things. Things. But we want to be able to give them something deeper, and we want to differentiate ourselves and position ourselves using emdr. So we could say something like, you're sick and tired of knowing you're great, but not. But your nervous system breaks down in front of the crowd.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Like, yeah, totally. Yeah. That's specificity. Yeah.

[Lily Risch]

Yes. And as EMDR therapists, we know. We feel in our bones. We know we can change that for our clients, and we just need to be able to. To message it in a way that people feel seen and heard, and they feel like, wow, that's really what I want. I don't want to keep taking Xanax on my flight. I don't want to keep feeling nervous when I'm the CEO of this big company, you know? And so I think the other piece is being to explain. Being to explain. Like, we believe if people are experiencing symptoms that don't make sense, we believe that has roots. We believe it made sense in the past. We believe that something was happening that was felt threatening to your nervous system. Felt like you weren't good enough, felt like you were going to be judged, rejected. And that's the first step of the work is helping to understand how this makes sense in the context of your development. So I think it's. Re can be very complicated, and we tend to overthink things,

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

us therapists, never.

[Lily Risch]

But if we can just really understand, like, helping our audience feel seen and heard, that can really help us.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

I mean, that's like the whole of marketing right there.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

Yes.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Like, when done right, you're leaving your person feeling like, wow, like she's in my head. This is validating. This is like, I have hope now.

[Lily Risch]

Yes.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

Yeah.

[Lily Risch]

And understanding when people are searching for trauma therapy in Milwaukee, what has led them up to that?

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Right.

[Lily Risch]

Or there's so much that comes before that we really have to show up with empathy and understanding, compassion on wherever we're visible so that we can speak to the people that are looking for what we offer.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yeah. It's looking at why now. That's always. We asked that in the first session. Like, why therapy now? But we need to be thinking about that from a marketing perspective too. Like, what inciting event or what was simmering that's now boiling. That has to be addressed and why. And if we can speak to that. I think about how protective so many

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

people are of their family of origin,

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

for instance, even if that family of origin is part of what made them.

[Lily Risch]

Yes.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

You know, struggle. And so instead of coming in hot, like, you've got an abusive mom, your dad was a drunk, you know, like, instead of doing that in your marketing, it might be more palatable to say, like, you came from a chaotic family. Something a little softer that they're willing to cop to at this stage before they've started working on things.

[Lily Risch]

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. There are so many protective strategies that we all have because we had to attach to our family. And I think EMDR therapists know that. Like, we're not blaming parents. We're not blaming. There's no blame. No blame in the game. It's just really about helping shift the nervous system. And one thing that I was just thinking about is really, as the MDR therapist, being able to differentiate without putting any other therapies down is really. Is really important to me. Right. And the differentiation, though, I think also in my eyes, comes with internal work on self worth as a therapist and fee work as well.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Mm. Say more about those.

[Lily Risch]

Oh, it's so hard. It's so hard. I mean, we. We need to do, I think, really think we have to do our own work on family of origin stuff and why we're. Why we're doing this work.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yes.

[Lily Risch]

We're not here by accident, I don't think. I think most of us have been caregivers, have emotionally cared for parents or, you know, again, like, no one's fault. It's just what has landed us in this therapy chair, especially as EMDR therapists.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yeah.

[Lily Risch]

We are not scared of intense things.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Right.

[Lily Risch]

We are like, I. I was like, yes, I will do the hardest thing. I will go into the trenches. I will do casework, investigation, sexual abuse, like, all of it.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Huh.

[Lily Risch]

Recipe for burnout. Also without boundaries. But that's. And so we have to really work on shifting our narratives about being a therapist, especially with the layers of gender as well, and understanding what resources does it take. For me to be able to continue to show up in the best way that I can.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yeah.

[Lily Risch]

And I believe that if we're the breadwinners or a single. Right. And not. We don't have any kind of second income. I think it's really hard to sustain an EMDR practice in now work just because we don't have any. There's no extra reimbursement for the amount of work that we have to do and financial investment to be able to heal trauma and change symptoms and change nervous systems. It's a very tall order.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yeah. And so many EMDR therapists will do like 90 minute sessions. Like that's their baseline. You can only charge for a 60 minute session. There is no.

[Lily Risch]

Exactly.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

You're gonna get paid for 90837.

[Lily Risch]

Exactly.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

Yeah.

[Lily Risch]

But. But it isn't. Not everyone wants to do that deep healing trauma work or is ready for it. And that's where we have to be able to like. Absolutely. Like some people need different therapists or different, different therapy and are not ready for EMDR and never will in their life. And that's okay.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

Yeah.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yeah.

[Lily Risch]

So we just need to be really clear. I think. And it's important, I think, not to put down any other therapies in our marketing, just that we do want to differentiate what it's taken for us to be in this space and to be able to sustain. And the amount of investment.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yes.

[Lily Risch]

That it takes for us to show up.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yeah. And I mean, I think there's a way to do that in marketing too, where you're not putting down other modalities, but you're acknowledging that this is different from traditional talk therapy.

[Lily Risch]

It is.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

And that's something I'll often say to folks who do things outside of traditional talk therapy. Adding somewhere on your website of like, if you have not gotten where you want to go with talk therapy, this might be a better option to try, like that kind of thing. It's not saying talk therapy doesn't work. It's not saying CBT is bullshit. It's not saying any of that. It's just saying different people need different things.

[Lily Risch]

Yes, exactly. And when we're talking about symptoms that are not like dsm, diagnosis of PTSD or. Right. Such as generalized anxiety disorder, we can, we can absolutely do work with EMDR to address generalized anxiety disorder. But that's where I think, you know, distinguishing and talking to our specific, specific niche about how we can help them using emdr. I also think that it's important for the community to understand symptoms of trauma like flashbacks and dissociation. That might not be as understood if somebody does not have a trauma lens. And how we understand that differently and how we treat that differently in a way that that doesn't make symptoms worse.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

Right, Right.

[Lily Risch]

So I just want EMDR therapists to feel empowered to have these conversations. And I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done in general that therapists aren't taught how to do that. And that's what I really want, because I want the community to be able to get EMDR therapy if they want it, and we can't. That can't happen. If EMDR therapists are hiding.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

Right.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

And they might not even be living the experience of feeling like they're hiding as much as feeling like they're not being found. Yeah.

[Lily Risch]

Good. Yeah.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Which just means they're like, there might be a fear of being seen.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

They need to work on.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

There may be. They are procrastinating on something because it scares them or they don't feel like they know how to do it. But it is as. As private practice folks, it is our job to make it easy for people to find us. That is a part of the job.

[Lily Risch]

And if you think about what I like being a therapist and what's led up to us choosing this career, it doesn't have to do with being seen.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Mm.

[Lily Risch]

Mm. Right.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yeah.

[Lily Risch]

Like, it doesn't have to do. It's like everyone else's needs before ours.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Right. And so there's. There's a part of it that wants to kind of use that. Use that for evil, like, before it's healed, like, until it gets healed. Be like, okay, well, it's really good caretaking to make it easy to be found. You know, like, marketing is an act of service.

[Lily Risch]

Yes.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Good. Marketing is good for everyone.

[Lily Risch]

I like that reframe.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

Yeah.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yeah.

[Lily Risch]

That's the reframe that I've really like. Or like. It's education.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, if maybe you haven't healed your. I need to take care of everybody.

[Lily Risch]

Yes.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Part of you yet, then it's okay to just be like, well, part of how I'm going to be a caretaker is by making it easy for people to find me.

[Lily Risch]

I'm doing this for you.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Right here.

[Lily Risch]

For you. If I have a bigger feet. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I do think ultimately it is because if we're burnt out, we're not showing up in a good way, we could do harm to our clients. Right.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

But 100%, I do think it's okay

[Lily Risch]

to do something for ourselves.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yes. Yes. That it's not all just your needs are important, but your wants are important too. And it's going to keep you in this field longer if both your wants and your needs are covered. And that's very difficult to do in managed care in most places.

[Lily Risch]

So hard. So hard. And my own shift was. Is reminding myself I didn't create the system, I just work in it.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lily Risch]

And I choose. I'm a social worker, so I choose micro work and I do macro work in other. Other places when I can. But everyone needs to kind of work through their own identity as a healer and helper and how they want to contribute. And then also it's okay to have a good life and go on vacation.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yes.

[Lily Risch]

And owning as well. So.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

And. And the fact that that needs to be said aloud.

[Lily Risch]

Yes.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

To like an entire field.

[Lily Risch]

I know.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yeah.

[Lily Risch]

Of mainly. Of mainly women.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Mainly women. Yes. And it's okay to do more than just pay what you need to on your student loans every month, like it's okay to. Because you also need to put into retirement, which I'm finding very few private practice therapists are doing consistently.

[Lily Risch]

Yes.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

And it terrifies me.

[Lily Risch]

Yes, I hear you.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Yeah. So there's so much, so much we need to do to take care of ourselves. And if we have families, our families as well. And we cannot, we can't sacrifice our, you know, years in our 70s or 80s for feeling comfortable with a lower fee now. Like we can. It's just not advisable. So you may, whatever choices you make, but understand the broad scope of if you're not putting into retirement every month.

[Lily Risch]

Absolutely.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

There's some sacrifices you're making to make a client feel more comfortable that might have been fine with a higher fee.

[Lily Risch]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And the word comfortable is really helpful because, I mean, I think we don't want to make people's lives worse. And so we're always assuming I raise my fee $5 or $10 a year. That's going to make their life worse.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

Right.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

They don't notice. Especially if you're private pay what they're paying, like five or ten dollars is not. Yes. They're not going to notice that.

[Lily Risch]

Yes.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

And.

[Lily Risch]

And people are also getting raises.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Right. And the economy sucks and everything is more expensive. And like, while other people are getting raises, we're the, we're the ones responsible for giving ourselves raises. And we need to at least cover the cost of living increase from this year to last year.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

Each year.

[Lily Risch]

Absolutely.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

At least.

[Lily Risch]

Yeah, absolutely. There's so many layers to what we need to work on as private practice EMDR therapists. And these are the conversations that I want to have with EMDR therapist to be able to solve some of these problems. Because it's all not that simple.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

Right?

[Lily Risch]

And we also want to choose where we're investing our time and money when we're building our practice. So. So that's. That's my goal. That's what I want. That's why I'm doing this. Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to build it out.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

How can folks find you, Lily?

[Lily Risch]

Yeah, so my Instagram handle is at Forward Healing Therapy. That's my. My. The name of my practice. So they can go ahead and DM me or find me on Instagram. My website for my group practice is forwardhealingtherapy.com if anyone in Milwaukee, Wisconsin's looking for therapy. But for. For EMDR therapist, find me on Instagram and then sign up for my Overflow. My business coaching group is called Overflow and you can sign up for free for my training on May 29th from 10 to 11 Central Time. If you can't make it, you can sign up to get the training for free. And then you will get all of the details about my Overflow membership that's starting in June.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Awesome. Love it. Thanks so much, Lily. I appreciate your time today.

[Lily Risch]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

If you're ready for a much easier practice, Therapy Notes is the way to go. Go to therapynotes.com and use the promo code abundant for two months.

[Allison Per (Host of Abundant Practice Podcast)]

Free.

[Alison (Host from Abundance Practice Building)]

If you're listening, you probably need support building your practice. If you're a super newbie, grab our free checklist using the link in the show Notes. I'd love for you to follow, rate and review, but I really want you to share this episode with a therapist friend. Let's help all our colleagues build what they want.