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Abundant Practice Podcast
Episode #628: Virtual Nomad Therapist, feat. Dr. Annie Krajewski
00:30:25
Special guest delves into her journey as a traveling psychologist and digital nomad and shares her experience of running a US-based therapy practice while living abroad - offering practical advice for those considering international living. This...
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- [00:00]
Alison Parer
Foreign.
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Dr. Annie Kurczewski
Hi, welcome to the Abundant Practice Podcast. I'm Alison from Abundance Practice Building. I have a nearly diagnosable obsession with helping therapists build sustainable, joy filled private practices, just like I've done for tens of thousands of therapists across the world. I'm excited to help you too. If you want to fill your practice with ideal clients, we have loads of free resources and paid support. Go to abundance practice building.com Links all right, onto the show so I've talked about therapy notes on here for years. I could talk about the features and the benefits in my sleep. But there are a couple things I want you to know about Therapy notes that doesn't typically make it into an ad script. First is that they actually care if you like their platform. They don't only make themselves available on the phone to troubleshoot so you don't pull your hair out when you get stuck. They also take member suggestions and implement those that there's client demand for. Like Therapy Search, an included listing service that helps clients find you internal and external secure messaging Clinical outcome measures to keep an eye on how your clients are progressing A super smooth super bill process Real time eligibility to check on your client's insurance. In my conversations with the employees there at all levels, they all really believe in their product and they want you to love it too. Second, they are proudly independently owned. Why should you care about that? Because as soon as venture capital becomes involved, the focus shifts from making customers happy to making investors happy. Prices go way up. Innovation plateaus. Making more money with as little output as possible becomes the number one focus. With over 100,000 therapists using their platform, they've been able to stay incredibly successful and they don't have to sacrifice your experience to stay there. You can try two months free@therapynotes.com with the coupon code Abundant.
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Alison Parer
Some of y'all.
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Dr. Annie Kurczewski
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- [03:00]
Alison Parer
Welcome back to the Abundant Practice podcast. I'm your host, Alison Parer, and I am here with Dr. Annie Kurczewski and we are going to be talking about her life as a traveling psychologist. Because I'm guessing some of y'all are wanting to travel elsewhere, maybe full time. So thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.
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Thank you so much for having me. It feels like such an honor to be the interview by you.
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Oh, yay. Well, thank you. Well, kind of maybe let's do some origin story. I'd love to hear how you started traveling and working at the same time.
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Sure. So I guess I, I started traveling internationally when I was in grad school and it was like the first time I had ever gone outside of the country. And I just really loved it. And it was like, yeah, it just like enlivened something inside of me. And then, you know, when I graduating or I was like finishing up my doctoral program, I learned about being a digital nomad. And I was like, oh, wow. Like, that seems really cool. But there's no way I'm going to be able to do that because I want to be, you know, in private practice. Like, I want to see therapy patients. But then I kind of was really, that never left me. The more I traveled, especially I went to like Thailand and I was like, oh my God, I want to live here. There's digital nomads here. But I still kind of didn't quite know how it would work having a private a practice. But then I was able to kind of discover that there were people who were doing it. And when I had the first month I had opened up my private practice, my like long term partner broke up with me and I was like, oh, just opened, like in person practice. I'm committed to this here in Virginia. I was in Arlington, Virginia at the time. But once that happened, it kind of really broke open my mind to think about possibilities. I was like, you know, this is something I really want to do. Like, let's, let's try and go for it. And so I kind of knew Virginia wasn't home. And I had this, like, desire to travel. So I moved from my apartment in Virginia back to Washington State, where my family was, with the idea that I would, you know, hopefully travel and work. But I had no clue what it was going to be like. And so I had already had a trip to Morocco planned before I had decided to move. And so I went on this trip to Morocco and had had all my stuff to work. Cause I had to work on the front and tail end of the trip. And I got to Morocco and I loved it so much. I was like, I don't want to leave. And I guess this is why I uprooted my life from Virginia to Washington. Why not let's stay just for another month. Like, let's extend the trip. Which I did. Which was, I think, in part, I was kind of scared to be a digital nomad and to travel. And so in some ways, already being in Morocco and thinking like, okay, this feels like an easy step. It's not like I have to go home and then come back. It was just kind of the spontaneous thing that I didn't have to think too much about. But then I think like a day after I decided to stay, I ended up meeting my now partner. And so I was like, okay, well, we hit it off pretty quickly and I wanted to continue exploring that connection. And I really was loving Morocco. And it was so amazing. And so then the rest is kind of history. I had gone back for like maybe three weeks to set my life up to be look on long term. Because I wasn't supposed to be gone, you know, forever. But, yeah, so that's kind of how it started. It was like this finding out that it was even a thing and then kind of deciding. Yeah. That I wanted to do it and kind of jumped right in.
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Amazing. How long ago was that?
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That was two Augusts ago. So August 2023. So it's been like probably a year and a half now.
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And are you in Morocco now or do you travel around a good bit? How do you balance your time?
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So I am. I'm primarily in Morocco because that's where my partner and his family are. But we last year we went to Thailand and Bali. We did like two months in Thailand and like a month and a half in Bali, which was like, incredible. And then we came back to Morocco and we've been here. I think I have decided to do a little bit longer stints because moving around a lot is a little bit hard, especially like running a business. But we're actually headed back to Thailand because I Am pregnant. And we. I don't want to give birth in Morocco for a variety of reasons. And so now we're going to Thailand because I have experience with their medical system there. And so we'll be in Thailand for like six months. So we're kind of like all over the place. But Morocco is definitely like one of our bases.
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Got it. I feel like your whole life is an adventure.
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We decided to go to Thailand for me to give birth. I was like, this is such a, like, this is like quintessential my story at this point.
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I just.
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It's kind of wild.
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Is there birthright citizenship in Thailand?
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No, in Thailand you have to be Thai by blood. And so one of the parents would have to be Thai. Yeah. But yeah, darn it, I know. Thailand's so beautiful.
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So, okay, who are you seeing in your practice? What states are you licensed in? Are you seeing Americans exclusively? Are you like, how is it working?
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Yeah, so I had built up a caseload when I was in Virginia because I had had a caseload there for like a year and a half. And that's where I did all my SEO and that's kind of where my app, like website was place because that's where I got licensed. And so I would say primarily that's where all my patients are. Or like in the Virginia D.C. area. Because now I'm licensed Virginia D.C. and then I'm also licensed in Washington. Yeah, exclusively U.S. based patients. There's a lot of legalities around being able to see people abroad in terms of like therapy. Obviously with coaching there's more possibilities. But yeah, so all of my patients are US based.
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Got it. You've got three different time zones that you're working with. How do you manage?
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Yes, yes. Well, I feel like one of the ways I manage it is trying to keep my schedule as consistent as possible. So I try not to like move people around too much. So I have a sense in my mind what time it is here compared to Virginia. And I, since most of my patients are in Virginia, that's where my mind is anchored in terms of scheduling. So if I do ever get like a Washington based patient, I kind of think in terms of the east coast just because three time zones are like a lot to manage.
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Dr. Annie Kurczewski
Yeah.
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Alison Parer
So I definitely try to keep my schedule consistent and try not to change it as much and then little tricks like keeping my computer to the east coast time. So like right now it says 109. So it's not like I'm not like confused or whatever when I'm like with patients. But.
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And what time is it in Morocco right now?
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It's seven. Seven? Yeah, it's 7:10.
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Oh, wow. Okay.
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So it's a six hour time difference and then when I go to Thailand It'll be a 12 hour time difference. So like when I see people in the morning, it'll be my nighttime.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Interesting. And so how, especially when you're traveling while working, like, if you're going from here to Thailand, you know, you're keeping them consistent. But does that, does that mess with your sleep? Does it mess with how you do life?
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That is definitely. That's a really good question because that's like probably the biggest factor when it comes to traveling and seeing people based in the United States. So when I first did it, I tried to keep everything as consistent as possible. Especially since I had just moved from Virginia to Washington. I was like, that was already disruptive enough. I didn't want to then be like, oh, I have to completely change my schedule because I'm in Morocco. I usually saw people in like the evening ish time in D.C. and so that translated to seeing people like 9 or 10pm to like 1 or 2am Morocco time. So I was definitely working at nighttime and some, you know, into the middle of the night. And I found at first, like, I actually really liked that because, you know, when you're in the States and you're, you're having the like kind of more regular schedule, there's so much more limitations in what you can do. On the days that like I was working, but I found like I was working in the evening, I could just sleep in and then I could go to the beach or go do whatever I wanted. And then I would spend, you know, I would obviously see people at nighttime. So I actually really liked it. But then when I got pregnant, I was like, okay, this is not working. And so I had to change my schedule. And so this time, this time zone's a little bit easier just because it's like a five to six hour time difference depending on what time it is in the States, given the, you know, daylight savings time. So that was, I was working the night, but now I work from like 11, you know, like 2pm to 4 or 5pm depending on the day, which is like really nice. So I still get the morning and the evening. So it's like you can kind of work it to where it's really nice. When I was in Thailand the first time, I kept the schedule as consistent as possible again. And so I was waking up at like 2:40am to see people at 3am a.m. it was really intense. I. That was, I think probably the hardest because I think waking up was like, you know, going to sleeping, like, okay, I need to make sure I wake up and not sleep through. My alarm was a lot more mentally taxing. But so that's why we kind of didn't do it for too long. But now when we go back, since I switched my patients to the morning, I'll be working the evenings there, which will be like much easier. And so there's definitely ways around it. It's just kind of trying to figure out like what works best for you. Because some, like I said, like I liked being able to have all the free time and I didn't mind kind of seeing people. But then obviously with things changing. So it all depends. But it's pretty manageable if you're open to it. Like some people I think probably would have a hard time. But it's also kind of you. There's pros and cons.
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Dr. Annie Kurczewski
Right? Right.
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Alison Parer
Yeah. And it sounds like for you it just makes sense to just work because this is the life you want to live.
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Yes, exactly.
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Such a good example of you can have what you want, which I'm constantly telling people. You're not just having what you want in the real basic way of seeing the clients you want and making the money you want. But like you're like really having what you want in a way that I, yeah. Is really inspirational for people.
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Yeah, I hope it is because you, I feel like you have to like, you know, finagle it and figure it out. But you can definitely like, you can have both, both worlds of having like I love seeing my patients, but I also glad that I don't have to sacrifice this dream of living internationally and you know, being in other, you know, places in the world. So it's definitely possible.
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Absolutely. And I think about how depending on where you are, I mean like Thailand is a lot less expensive than Virginia and Washington and so you don't have to work as much.
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Yes. Yeah.
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Especially if you're, you know, you're seeing American clients so you're charging American prices and it just goes much farther.
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Yes, absolutely. That is very true. Like I, I've never spent more than a thousand dollars on a place and the Most was like 950. But we were like literally on the beach with like, wow, beautiful beach view. Now it's like for like a two bedroom, we're paying 500 and it's like a 15 minute walk to the beach. It's way less expensive than in the, like, I'm like, I would never be able to live like this in the States. So close to the beach. I'd have to see like 60 patients a week to be able to afford that. Yeah, in the States.
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And what are the rules for how long you can stay in certain places? Do you have to leave countries? How do you, is it different for countries? How do you keep up with that?
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Yeah, so yeah, it's, every country is different and it's kind of dependent on what passport you have. But with an American passport, you kind of get into anywhere for a certain amount of time. So most like here in Morocco, I get a 90 day tourist visa, like just pretty standard. To get a longer term visa is quite hard. And I don't even know if they have longer term visa. But you can apply for residency, but it's very difficult to get residency. And so what most people do here is they do visa runs where they leave like once their 90 days is up or right before they'll like go to another country and then come back and it like automatically renews. That's because that's kind of how Morocco works. But places like Europe, I think you can stay up to three months, but then you have to leave for three months and then you can go back. But so there's like much more restrictions there unless you apply for longer term visas, which I think some of the countries have. There are some digital nomad visas like I think Croatia and Spain and maybe Portugal are ones that have pretty accessible visas. Well they also have that like in Thailand they're a little bit stricter than Morocco. So it's like once I enter I get 60 days and I can extend it for 30 or I can, you know, and then leave and then come back for another 60 plus 30 days. So there's like ways around it if, because once you start getting into the like the longer term visas they can be quite expensive. Like in Thailand they do have a digital nomad visa now, but you have to pay like 500 and you have to show that you have like $15,000 in a bank account. And then if you want even one, an even longer term, it's like $20,000 for like a five year period. So there's like they can get pricey but that they, you kind of have to just look at each country and you know, I, I think you can apply for residency in some of the countries, but some of them can be hard and some of them aren't. It's so interesting, like Being from the States and you know, immigration and all that. But like every country has their own view of immigration or tourism or you know, things like that. And so yeah, but it is, I haven't had any issues with it. I can't stay long term. Like I can't just stay in Morocco without having to leave the country, which can be just a little bit tricky. But there's definitely like ways around it.
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But you can, it sounds like you can leave for what like a 24 hours and come back or does it need to be a little.
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Some people just like cross the border to Spain up in north of Morocco because it's like right there and then come back the same day. In, in a lot of countries it kind of, it, if you do something like that, you might be cutting it close because some border agents might be a little bit stricter than others. But yeah, like most people I think leave for a day and come back and it's like there's no questions asked. Like I have so many Moroccan stamps on my passport at this point. Like every time I'm like, oh no, I hope they're not going to be like you're always here. But like they're really, I think Morocco, like a lot of countries like want tourists to come and so they can be kind of more lenient. But it kind of depends if you get a grumpy, you know. Border agent.
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Yeah. This is so interesting because I think about, I have, have a number of friends who have either left the country for good. You know, Portugal's real hot right now to escape the United States.
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Very hot.
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And friends who were looking into Canada, but it's like next to impossible to immigrate to Canada. But they're not considering the digital nomad option and like exploring what that would look like. They're all looking at residency, which is now I'm going to talk to them. Here's another accent.
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Yeah, yeah. And I guess if like I know people who get apartments and rent apartments in like Thailand and stuff like that without a long term residency. So it's like, it's definitely possible if you want like a main place to stay and it is like a more flexible option. Like if you want to like fully immigrate to a place that might, you know, then you might want to consider residency. But Right. Yeah, there, there's definitely options for sure.
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Right out four years you can like, you don't necessarily. You just need to go back and for little.
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Exactly.
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I keep it.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So what is it like for you with countries that Speak different languages. Like, how do you. Are you great at picking up languages, or are you, like, most places, English?
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So I am so bad with languages, and I just seem to pick countries that have extremely hard languages. Like, in Morocco, they speak Dera, which is like, a dialect of Arabic. And Arabic is, like, a tonal language. And so it's like, I tried learning it, and it's so hard because you have to make certain, like, noises with your throat that I'm, like, I have no clue how they're even doing it. So anyways, like, it's very hard to learn. But luckily, since I, you know, my partner's, you know, is Moroccan, and so he speaks fluent derision, so I kind of get, like, around it with that. But then I learned just kind of basic communication so I can get by even when I'm not with him. And then in Thailand, there are a lot of people who are just around tourists that can know basic communication. But honestly, technology has made it so possible. So you can just pull up your translator app. Anytime I've had any issues, I'll just pull that up and I'm able to kind of get by. Obviously, if you're wanting to live in a place longer, like, it can get a little bit isolating if you're not in a touristy area, because it's maybe hard to make friends with people who don't speak your language.
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Yeah.
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But in terms of, like, the practicalities, I think a lot of people know you're a tourist and are quite friendly and, like, want to help you. And a lot of them might kind of have the basic way of communicating, but it is. I think the thing that has surprised me the most is I think how much I can tell what people are saying or, like, you, you. How much you communicate through your body, and how much is just so ingrained. Like, when you go to the store, like, you know. You know what to do. Like, you don't need to speak the language.
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Right.
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A lot of times they'll just show me the number. They won't even try saying it, you know? So I think it, like, people can communicate in so many more ways than direct speech, which is, like, when my partner and his friends are talking and I'm there and they're all talking to Ria, sometimes I can really know what they're saying from, like, context exclusively, which is, like. So, like, I feel like I'm, like, really developing a part of my brain that I would have never had to develop before. But it's definitely not something I would, you know, have anyone worry about, especially if they have a, you know, a smartphone, which at this point, who doesn't have a smartphone?
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Right. And so it sounds like you were like, the easiest way to do this as a therapist is to continue in the states that I'm licensed in. Follow those rules because I know them.
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Yes.
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And therapists can be wherever when, as long as you're licensed in that state. So.
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Yes.
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What are some things you learned about the process of being a digital nomad that you were like, oh, that wouldn't have occurred to me.
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I think there are a lot of practicalities. Like, like even like a bank account, you have to have like my bank account. Like if I want to use Zelle, I have to make sure I have the right bank account. I was first trying to use Zelle with capital one, but Capital one is like you need a US based number and I don't have a US based number at this point. Switch my Zelle to another bank account. So there's like little things like that where when you're not in the States, there's so much that you, you don't easily have access to. And so there's like just like little nuances you have to get around or things like with like business wise, there are certain platforms that don't allow you to be outside of the country. And so you have to make sure you have the right ehr. The thing that surprised me the most is that how doable it is. And the things that I really worried about, I was so terrified that I would go to another country and the Internet would be terrible. I was like, I'm not going to be able to see patients. Like, I need to have really stable Internet. But I think my experience of Internet traveling to hotels, you know, when I would travel internationally, is in hotels and hotels are going to have like the worst Internet. You know, they're not going to beta. I speed Internet well for all of their guests, I guess. But so I think like there are things that I was so terrified about that it was just so much easier than I could have ever imagined. Like, obviously there's things like homesickness and the longer you're away and life changes, like being pregnant, like I got really homesick during the first trimester, like, things like that. But just knowing that that's a part of the process is helpful that, you know, I think a lot of people have this fantasy about being a digital nomad. Like, oh, my life sucks. I'm gonna go move to this beautiful country and everything's gonna be great. And it is like, it's so magical, but at the same time, life follows you.
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Right, right. Problems don't just dissolve.
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Yes, exactly.
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Dr. Annie Kurczewski
Yeah.
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Alison Parer
But I can see how the new environment would probably shake. I mean, in the same way, when we travel internationally, just for travel travel, like, it kind of shakes loose some things that you're like, okay, maybe this thing I'm worried about isn't quite as important as I've been acting like it.
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Yeah.
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And I don't know, I have this fantasy that most other countries have their shit together a bit more than the United States people do. Just in terms of like our obsession with work, our obsession with being on our phones all the time, those kinds of things.
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Or consumerism. It's shocking. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I feel like there's so much deconstruction I've done of my, like, American things that I've just learned in America. Like, it's really crazy once you leave, just how like insane it is how much you really do buy or work or are, you know, obsessed with certain things there. It's, it's really, it's been quite a fascinating process.
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Yeah. I mean, not to get too woo, but I just feel like you're probably able to get more to the core of yourself through that deconstruction.
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And what matters. Yeah. And what. Actually, you know, I think being like, for example, like being pregnant, consumerism is a huge part of being pregnant. They're like, you need this, this, this, this, this. And not being in a place where that is a thing at all. There's no shipping, there's no Amazon here. Like, they don't even have addresses. Like, you can't make things shipped. It's just not the same. They don't have a target where you can go buy a bunch of baby stuff. And so in some ways, like not being able to just consume has made me be like, okay, well, I think I want to buy these things because I'm quite anxious about becoming a mom. And so maybe let's look at that instead of like buying a bunch of stuff on Amazon that I think will save me from the unknown of motherhood. And I think that is just true for a lot of other parts of the process as well, of being human as things can be nerve wracking. And you know, there's things in the States that, you know, it's like, oh, like marketing is such a big deal. They're like, oh, here by this. But, you know, and I think that's just one thing that I think. Yeah. Is being away from all of that and like even being in nature and being so much more connected, being in a culture where community is a huge part. Like they are always relying on each other and it is just so fascinating of like. Like in the States we have technology, so it's like you don't even have to like talk to someone and food shows up at your door. You know, it's just not normal to most of the world, I think. Yeah, there is so much. But then you, you have this community, but then you kind of have to face certain parts of yourself in the community. You know, I think there is just so much you can learn about yourself when you're outside of this kind of curated, very controlled American experience. Like, you have so much control in the States and you think that that is something that's like, I need control. And I've really had to let that go. Even the fact that I don't know when the bus is going to show up and I need to take the bus. In the States you have like a little tracker that shows where the bus is.
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Exactly. So it's like I do think I.
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Have to like, see, see myself so much more and sit with myself without that like sense. It's just such an. It's really interesting. And I'm sure anyone who immigrates to another country has that similar process of, you know, there's such norms from where they are that, you know, going into another place is just really shakes up. Yeah. Themselves and how they see themselves.
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I love that we all need a little bit more shaking up, I think.
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Yeah, it's really great. It can be hard, but it's like, I really love the process. Like, it's something that's hard to really quite put words to but is really, I think helps. Helps my, well, being so much just, you know, being in this. Learning about myself in such a deep way.
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Yeah, absolutely. Well, you're doing a training for everybody in the abundance party.
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Yes.
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I'm so excited about. So people listening. If you're not already in there and you're really strongly considering being a digital nomad or just want to learn more about it and hop in the party for this live webinar because I have like 50 more questions I want to ask you but we're out of time so I'll save them for that.
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Yes, I'm really excited.
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Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Annie and we will talk to you soon.
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Yes, sounds good. Thank you.
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Dr. Annie Kurczewski
If you're ready for a much easier practice, therapy notes is the way to go. Go to therapynotes.com and use the promo code abundant for two months free. Make sure your email is actually hipaa compliant with PalBox. Use code ABUNDANT to get PalBox for less than $100 your first year at pax.com if you're listening, you probably need some support building your practice. If you're a super newbie, grab our free checklist using the link in the show Notes. I'd love for you to follow rate and review, but I really want you to share this episode with a therapist friend. Let's help all our colleagues build what they want.