Episode #650: The Mental Load, feat. Maggie Holland

Summary

Abundant Practice Podcast - Episode #650: The Mental Load, feat. Maggie Holland

Release Date: May 19, 2025

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Introduction to the Mental Load

In Episode #650 of the Abundant Practice Podcast, host Allison Puryear engages in a profound discussion with Maggie Holland, a licensed mental health counselor from Washington state. The episode delves into the intricacies of the mental load, a concept increasingly prevalent in both social discourse and clinical settings. Maggie brings her expertise to explore why understanding the mental load is crucial for therapists and their clients.

Defining the Mental Load

[01:11] Maggie Holland:
"The mental load is all the cognitive work required to manage household tasks, relationships, family, and work life. It's not just the visible tasks like unloading the dishwasher but the continuous thinking and planning that keeps everything running."

Allison and Maggie begin by unpacking the definition of the mental load. Maggie emphasizes that it encompasses both tangible tasks and the often invisible cognitive and emotional labor that sustain daily life. This includes planning meals, managing schedules, and handling unforeseen issues, all of which can lead to an incessant to-do list where completion seems perpetually out of reach.

Examples of Invisible Labor

To illustrate the concept, Maggie references the classic movie Home Alone, highlighting the mother's frantic efforts to manage pre-trip preparations while feeling overwhelmingly responsible.

[05:50] Maggie Holland:
"Think about preparing dinner every night. The mental load here isn't just cooking; it's meal planning, grocery shopping, budgeting, and accommodating everyone's dietary needs. This process can start weeks in advance and continues daily, often without recognition."

Allison adds her personal experiences, noting how tasks that once felt manageable can become sources of significant stress when they accumulate over time.

Gender Dynamics and Societal Conditioning

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on how the mental load disproportionately affects women due to societal norms and gender roles.

[14:10] Maggie Holland:
"Women have more favorable attitudes towards household tasks than men, leading to them taking on a larger share of domestic and emotional labor. This disparity persists even in dual-income households, where women often manage three times the mental load of their male partners."

Maggie cites a United Nations study revealing that in traditional heterosexual relationships, women perform nearly three times as much unpaid mental load work as men. This imbalance is deeply rooted in societal conditioning, where activities like cooking and cleaning are valorized when performed by women but often devalued when expected of men.

Impact on Relationships and Economic Implications

The unequal distribution of the mental load has far-reaching consequences, not only straining personal relationships but also affecting women's economic stability.

[25:26] Maggie Holland:
"The pay gap between mothers and non-mothers is even larger than the general gender pay gap because women often leave the workforce or reduce their hours to manage increased domestic responsibilities."

This economic disparity hampers women's career advancement and financial independence, further entrenching gender inequalities. Maggie also touches on how mental load affects same-sex couples differently, noting that research shows these relationships tend to be more equitable in task division, largely due to better communication and shared expectations.

Addressing Mental Load in Therapy

Allison and Maggie discuss practical approaches for therapists to help clients recognize and manage the mental load. Key indicators include persistent overwhelm, insomnia due to racing thoughts, and underlying resentment towards partners.

[30:03] Maggie Holland:
"Start with psychoeducation. Help clients understand what the mental load is and how it impacts their mental health. Normalize their experiences and remove the shame associated with feeling overwhelmed."

Maggie emphasizes the importance of creating a shared language around the mental load, enabling clients to communicate more effectively with their partners. She recommends resources like Eve Rodsky's Fair Play book and its accompanying card deck as tools for couples to divide tasks more equitably.

Solutions and Problem-Solving Strategies

The conversation transitions to actionable strategies for alleviating the mental load. Maggie highlights the necessity of open communication, redefining household roles based on strengths, and considering external resources to outsource tasks when feasible.

[43:58] Maggie Holland:
"Encourage clients to communicate openly with their partners about the division of labor. Use tools like the Fair Play cards to facilitate these conversations and ensure both partners are actively involved in managing the household."

Allison shares anecdotes about using the Fair Play system, illustrating both successes and challenges in implementing equitable task division. They stress the importance of patience and persistence, as shifting deeply ingrained habits requires time and mutual effort.

Final Thoughts and Takeaways

The episode concludes with a reaffirmation of the importance of recognizing and addressing the mental load to foster healthier, more balanced relationships and improve overall well-being.

[54:58] Allison Puryear:
"Understanding the mental load not only helps in clinical settings but also empowers individuals to create more equitable and fulfilling home lives. It's about building trust and working as a team with your partner."

Maggie echoes this sentiment, underscoring that addressing the mental load is a collective effort that benefits both individuals and their relationships.

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Notable Quotes

• Maggie Holland [01:11]:
  "The mental load is all the cognitive work required to manage household tasks, relationships, family, and work life."

• Maggie Holland [14:10]:
  "Women have more favorable attitudes towards household tasks than men, leading to them taking on a larger share of domestic and emotional labor."

• Maggie Holland [25:26]:
  "The pay gap between mothers and non-mothers is even larger than the general gender pay gap because women often leave the workforce or reduce their hours to manage increased domestic responsibilities."

• Maggie Holland [30:03]:
  "Start with psychoeducation. Help clients understand what the mental load is and how it impacts their mental health."

• Maggie Holland [43:58]:
  "Encourage clients to communicate openly with their partners about the division of labor."

• Allison Puryear [54:58]:
  "Understanding the mental load not only helps in clinical settings but also empowers individuals to create more equitable and fulfilling home lives."

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Conclusion

Episode #650 of the Abundant Practice Podcast offers an insightful exploration of the mental load, highlighting its significant impact on individuals and relationships. Through Maggie Holland's expertise, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the cognitive and emotional burdens that often go unnoticed but play a critical role in sustaining daily life. The discussion not only sheds light on gender disparities and societal conditioning but also provides practical strategies for therapists and clients to address and mitigate the mental load, paving the way for healthier, more balanced living.

For more resources on building a private practice and managing the mental load, visit www.abundanceparty.com and www.abundancepracticebuilding.com.

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This summary captures the essence of the conversation between Allison Puryear and Maggie Holland, offering valuable insights into the concept of the mental load and its implications for both personal well-being and professional practice.

Transcript

[Allison]

Thanks for joining us on Not Boring ces, where we don't think you should be bored to death while getting your continuing ed. Keep listening here, then hop over to notboring ces.com to get all your online CE credits. All right, y' all, let's get to learning. Maggie Holland is a licensed mental health counselor in the state of Washington. She has been practicing since 2018 and currently works in her own private practice. She specializes in working with women that struggle with anxiety, burnout, people pleasing perfectionism, and perinatal concerns. She also has extensive experience working with survivors of narcissistic abuse and dysfunctional family dynamics. When she's not working, you can find her cuddled up with a book and her two large dogs, Dipstick and Doodle. Welcome, Maggie. Welcome back to Not Boring ces. I'm here with Maggie Holland and we are going to be talking about the mental load. You guys may have heard of this in, like, your social media accounts. You maybe heard it in some ces. Hopefully this is something we're talking about more and more. Maggie is going to walk us through the mental load and why it's important clinically for our people. So thanks for being here.

[Maggie Holland]

Absolutely. Thank you for having me, Allison. Yeah.

[Allison]

So can we just start off with what is the mental load?

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think there's a lot of things that get lumped into this, so I think this is a really great place to start. So I think of the mental load is kind of encompassing all the cognitive work that it takes to do all the more non tangible tasks that are required for your household and your relationship and your family and your work life to function. And so as we're thinking about this, a lot of times this is kind of thought as, as that endless to do list, right? Like you get three things off of it and four things appear. You know, it's never really done. There's always more that has to get done. And so it's kind of all the cognitive work that goes with that. But as we talk about this and as we look at our families and as we look at our relationships both with our partners and with extended family as well, I think it's really important that we also include the emotional labor that comes with things, because that can kind of be something that isn't seen either. So it kind of can encompass a lot of things, but it's basically those things that mainly happen inside of your brain. And it's not always something. Sometimes it can include a thing that you like, do, right? Like unloading the dishes is definitely some domestic work. And you have to think, oh, we don't have any clean dishes. That needs to happen. But it's that the thinking portion of all of these tasks is really what that mental load is referring to.

[Allison]

Yeah. I think sometimes what I see is people talk about the mental load as the unloading of the dishwasher, not just the noticing that it needs to be done.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes.

[Allison]

And this is the distinct piece of it where you may. Like, I love. We'll probably talk about Eve Rodsky at some point in here. Maybe we will.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes.

[Allison]

I love her framework for how things get done, but it doesn't mean you don't notice that it needs to be done. Even if it is the other person's task. It's their baby in the household. We still notice. And then we manage our feelings.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And I think that portion of it. So there's a lot of names that come with this. Right. So there's emotional labor and then there's the mental load. And you know, as we're talking about it, what we're talking about with the dishes, that's domestic labor. Right. So there's lots of sub names for that. And I think a really important sub name that helped it click for me was when I heard the phrase invisible work. Because a lot of times this work, for a lot of reasons that we're going to talk about, is devalued. And when it's devalued, that means that then goes unseen, and then that being unseen is also unappreciated.

[Allison]

Yes.

[Maggie Holland]

And it's. Then if it's not conceptualized as work, then it's taken for granted, and people don't think about it a lot. But you still have to. You're still using brain calories to think about. There's no clean dishes. Right. Or like, somebody wants macaroni and cheese tonight, and there's no pots clean in the house. So that is work that happens, too. And so the thing that really helped it click for me was when somebody used the phrase invisible laboratory. Because it doesn't always get seen. Some of it gets seen, and sometimes a part of it gets seen, but the whole process doesn't always get seen. Yeah. Yes.

[Allison]

I think about how our culture in America is so productive and capitalistic and this idea that because it doesn't fall under the kind of work that's paid because it doesn't fall under. This is a vocation or a job, whether or not you're working outside the home, you're. We're all working inside the home, too. There's always work to be done there.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah. And I think as we talk about this, a big issue, particularly in our society, is that we are a capitalistic society in cue groans from everybody, right? Like, this is where. This is where we live and work. And I think a big trap that people fall into as they consider the mental load as work is as we start breaking work down into, like, worthy work or like paid versus unpaid work. Because we live in a capitalistic society. Of course, people often are thinking about the paid work because that's what pays the bills. So we can stay in our homes and we can put food on the table. But this is still work, too. And it doesn't make it less important just because there's not money that comes with it necessarily. You know, But I think sometimes people dismiss it because of that. That dichotomy is, is it paid or not? You know, so can we talk about.

[Allison]

Some examples of invisible labor so that people can really see how it's at play in their own life and maybe some of their own reactions to these things and how it gets done in their own household?

[Maggie Holland]

Yes, absolutely. You know, so I'm going to give, like, a really tangible one, and everybody gets frustrated by it. So we're going to start with a fun one first, right? So as I was preparing for this kind of closer to Christmas, I was watching Home Alone, and that's just the best example of a mental load that I think I've ever seen in a movie because all these kids are running around the house packing. And Kevin, the youngest, is running around asking his siblings, I don't know how to pack a suitcase. What do I pack? Like, what are the things that I need? And his siblings are telling him he's dumb and, you know, doing sibling things. But then one of the siblings says, I don't know why you're worried about it. Mom's going to pack it for you. Why are you even freaking out about it? Right? So then they get together. Kevin obviously doesn't make it into the van. I hope I'm not spoiling home. But that's the premise, so welcome. And then, you know, the mom is sitting on this plane and I think they're going to Paris. And the mom is talking to the dad, and she's like, I feel like we're forgetting something. And she starts checking down this to do list of. Is it the garage door? Is it the coffee pot? Is it whatever? And as she's going through things, her husband's like, yeah, no, we did that. We did that. It's no big deal. Don't worry about it. And then. And then she's like, oh, we forgot Kevin. That is the mental load right there. She's sitting on a plane. Her kids should all be on the plane. Her and her partner should have done that together. Her kids should be on the plane, and she should just be able to sit. Her husband's, like, reading a book. And so she should be able to sit on the plane and be on the plane. And so that's an example of mental load that's not so close to home for everybody. So if you need to, like, share that with a partner or a client, there's a good example. But, yeah, she should be able to just sit on a plane and just read her book like the husband is. But instead, she's ticking down the to do list when she literally cannot do anything from a plane anyway. So there's a cinematic example. I love to use those.

[Allison]

Yes.

[Maggie Holland]

Yep.

[Allison]

I like your point that it's less. It's less personal to be able to use home alone to ease into this conversation with a partner.

[Maggie Holland]

Absolutely, yes. And so let's do an example that's a little bit more close to home. Everybody hold your breath. This is a frustrating one. So let's use an example. A huge domestic task that absolutely must happen every single day is we gotta eat dinner every night. It's got to happen. We've got to prepare it, we've got to cook it, we've got to sit down and eat it. Otherwise everybody's going to be unhappy. And it's a pretty big task in and of itself. The tangible piece of that. And it's really visible because you all know if you don't get your dinner, that's a pretty visible one. But let's look at the mental load that goes into this example specifically. So there is picking out the meal that we're going to be having. There is checking the pantry and the fridge to make sure that you have all the ingredients that you need for that dinner to happen. Whatever ingredients are not in your house, you have got to add those to a list. You have to make sure that list goes to the grocery store with you. You have to make time to go to the grocery store. You have to walk through the grocery store. You have to pick up all of those ingredients. And so this is some of that mental work that goes into that. And we're not even touching on, do we have the finances to cover this meal? Is this within budget? This isn't Even touching on, if you have somebody in your family has really serious food allergies, you have to now check the ingredients if any of those allergens are in that food. And so we're just kind of touching on some of those off the top of my head. But hopefully that's giving a picture of there's a lot more than just putting dinner on the table that goes into getting dinner on the table. And that process can start up to a week, sometimes weeks before that dinner ever happens. If you buy in bulk or if you're, you know, have a big family, you're needing to consider those things for. So there's a lot of work that goes on before that food ever gets pulled out of the fridge to be cooked. There's a lot of work that happens mentally before that.

[Allison]

Yeah. And I would say with that, there are people who love to cook. The vast majority of people I know and I used to love to cook, but the vast majority of people I know with families have gotten to the point where they hate to cook.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah.

[Allison]

And so there is this task that isn't pleasurable, that has all this mental load step stuff beforehand that somebody's on the hook for every single day.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Allison]

It takes time and it takes energy. And none of us want to do it. Almost none of us. And somebody's got to. So it's just kind of one of those things with adulthood that we have to tackle.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah, absolutely. Yes. And then. Okay, add in the piece if neither of us like it. Now that comes into the research of what's an easy meal to cook. Right. Researching dinners in 30 minutes or less. Right. That's work too. And it's okay to not like cooking dinner. It's okay if no one in the house likes to cook dinner, but that is something to then consider. But somebody has to do it. And that can be pretty tiring to have to force yourself to do things you don't want to do every day.

[Allison]

Absolutely.

[Maggie Holland]

And we're not even talking about the emotional piece of if somebody in your household doesn't like it and refuses to eat it and now you have to cook a second dinner. I was already to bring that up for everybody, but that happens too. Yeah. And so that's now part of it.

[Allison]

Well, and because you've already done this one, I'm just thinking about particularly when my. One of my daughters was smaller and she has some food aversions and how I would have already done this thing I hated doing that I didn't want to do after doing lots of Other adulty things that I didn't want to do all day. And then to have her refuse the food. I know that is, you know, as a parent, it's my job to make sure my child eats. And like, sure, I guess we can do noodles and parmesan again for you. Yeah, But I already did all this other work.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah. And so as we're talking about it, I know this feels like something that, as we highlight it, it can get. Man, this is really getting pretty big out of control pretty quickly. And I think that's why it's so important that we talk about it, is because, you know, your daughter having food aversions, that happens whether we're acknowledging it or not. Whether we're acknowledging the work it takes to like, okay, I'm taking a break from my meal and I'm getting up and I'm going to start the noodles and Parmesan. It's great to do that for your kid. And also, we just need to acknowledge that that's more work, right?

[Allison]

Yeah.

[Maggie Holland]

So it can pretty quickly grow and grow as we start looking at it. And I think that's why it's important for us to look at that.

[Allison]

Yes, absolutely. Should we talk about the mental load and how it's kind of stratified across our society?

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah, absolutely. So this conversation, I'm sure people have been talking about this far earlier than the 1980s, but this conversation really start. Started in the 1980s particularly. There are sociologists, Arlene Kaplan, Daniels, I believe, and a lot of work around invisible labor. That's kind of where that term comes from. And so, again, coming back to this capitalistic standard of understanding work as focus on, you know, activities that you have to do and you get paid for them. That means just because of how things are separated by gender, which. Let's definitely get into that in just a second. But women's work, quote, unquote, is not just any job that you do outside of the house, but it does tend to fall on women more once you get home. And so all of this, like making the noodles with Parmesan. Right. That is then kind of considered more women's work. I hope your partner's not like that, Allison. But that's usually considered good. Good. But then that. That work, when it falls to women, tends to be devalued more. And it's. It's usually unpaid. It's limited by. You're limited by the demands of the unpaid work that happens in the home. And. And there's a lot of moral implications that go with this because it's divided by gender. So this kind of. That's where that started. That was her kind of premise of Invisible work in the 80s. But a lot of this comes down to how we view gender and how we assign worth. So, yeah, that's probably our next place to go.

[Allison]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Maggie Holland]

Yep, yep. So let's talk about particularly because we're talking to clinicians right now. And so we have to kind of know who are we particularly on the lookout for this for in our sessions. When does this typically show up in relationships? Let's talk about that stuff. So as of right now, I hope that this is shifting because of Eve Brodsky and all the conversation around this stuff. But as of right now, all of our research is still showing that women still do a majority of the childcare and the domestic work at home. Really hard to quantify emotional labor. But I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb to say that women do a majority of the emotional labor in our households as well and in our relationships. And something that's really alarming with this, with modern women is that even when we have two or in our families, like let's take a heterosexual relationship, man and a woman, they are both working outside of the house, they are working full time. Women are still picking up a majority of the childcare and domestic work on top of working a full time paid job. Right. That society sees. And so, you know, as we're looking at this, this disproportionately affects women and obviously this disproportionately affects heterosexual relationships. You know, and so the level of that though, let's talk about that as well. So we had a recent study by the United Nations, I believe, that kind of quantified this for us and showed that not only are women doing more work, even though they're working outside the home too, but they're doing almost three times as much unpaid mental load work as their, as their male partners are doing. So I'm just gonna let that sink in a little bit. So take a traditional heterosexual relationship. They're both working outside the house, they're working the same 40 hours in a week. And then she comes home and she's doing three times amount of work. Once she punches out at work, she comes home, she's doing three times more work. That's a problem.

[Allison]

Huge problem.

[Maggie Holland]

So why, let's talk about that. Why might this be happening? So I pulled a study and I pulled a quote from that that I thought was really, really Helpful. And so that quote is that women have more favorable attitudes. This is literally what the study said. I'm not just saying this. This study came out and said women have more favorable attitudes towards cleaning, cooking, and childcare than do men. I'm taking a deep breath as I read this next part because I get frustrated by it. Women enjoy it more. They set higher standards for it. That part doesn't make me mad. I think that's true. And they feel more responsible for it. I think that's probably true, too. The first part of women enjoy it more. I'm like, no, I don't enjoy this cleaning. No, no. But. So then the rest of this quote is, furthermore, women's favorable and men's unfavorable attitudes are associated with women's greater contribution to household labor. Let's break that down.

[Allison]

Can we. Can I ask when did this study come out or the thing that this was quoted from?

[Maggie Holland]

I didn't pull any research that wasn't within the last five to ten years. So this.

[Allison]

Oh, for God's sake. Like, 1963.

[Maggie Holland]

I'm trying to scroll down to my footnotes. I'm like, which one is this? What's the footnote? But I'm like, no, I didn't pull anything that wasn't the last five to 10 years. I think the oldest study that I pulled was the 2009 study.

[Allison]

So, okay, I won't throw anything. I'll just feel it.

[Maggie Holland]

That's exactly why we got to talk about this, right? I'm like, yeah, because as I'm going through this research, I'm like, okay, this is because at first it made sense. I'm going back to the beginnings. This is. This is from the 1980s. No big deal. Well, that still is alarmingly recent. Right? Most of our lifetimes. But, yeah, as I'm starting to pull research that, like. Wait, what do you mean? This research came out in 2020 or this one came out in, you know, 2017. What do you mean? No. Yeah. So all of the things that I'm pulling and quoting last five to 10 years, which is horrifying.

[Allison]

They got the data that said that women enjoy it more. They're not just throwing it in there. Right. So why would women be saying that we enjoy it more? Like, if it's on a likert scale, for instance, I don't know what their methodology was, but if it's on a likert scale, socialization goes into that.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah.

[Allison]

I don't know anybody that. I know some people who would like to clean one room and be done.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah.

[Allison]

But the ongoing ever present job of cleaning.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah, society.

[Allison]

Yes.

[Maggie Holland]

I'm just like, yes, society.

[Allison]

All the feelings.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes, yes, all the feelings. I have to take deep breaths as I talk about this, as I think about this, talk about this to other clinicians, to my clients. We're all in this together, everybody. This is why we're in this work, even for these frustrating pieces. But yeah, a lot of this is societal conditioning, right? So there is a lot of societal expectation. There's a lot of societal messaging. As we also consider when you grow up, don't forget that all important behavior modeling like watching moms and what moms do, right. And how they're messaging and signaling to their children. This is what mom does, this is what dad does. Now a lot of this I just want to acknowledge. We're talking about primarily heterosexual relationships. We're going to talk about how this applies to same sex relationships a little bit. But yeah, there's a reason we're talking traditional heterosexual relationships with traditional values of man, woman, mom and dad and households. So we'll talk about that in a little bit. But so think about growing up as again, watching what does mom do? How does she act about things? What are the expectations here? And I also really like to acknowledge the different reinforcements that come in from society, both positive and negative. So as we're talking about positive, that is raising for the housework that is, you know, comment like, oh my gosh, your house looks like it's straight out of a Martha Stewart magazine. Right. Or oh, your kids are so well behaved. As if you have any control over that when you're out in public. But it is praise for that work that you've been doing to raise kids that can act however people are praising in public. But with that positive praise, I think it's also really important for us to acknowledge the negative reinforcements that come with that too. And we're talking mom guilt, we're talking shaming that happens. And that can be really, really intense. Whether somebody has said it to you or they haven't said it to you directly doesn't really matter because it's. I, I could probably pick out an example from a movie as well of let's go back to home alone, right? Then her, I don't know if it's her sister. Gosh, I should have watched that before, more recently. But it's whoever is traveling with them and she's sitting by her on the airplane and the mom, Kevin's mom is literally saying like, what kind of mother am I? That I left my youngest child. That's mom guilt and shame.

[Allison]

Right? The dad wasn't bemoaning what a bad dad he was.

[Maggie Holland]

I'm pretty sure he went back to his book at this point. That dad seemed to actually care, but I'm pretty sure he went back to his book at this point, and he was like, it's okay, sweetie. Like, there's nothing we can do on this plane right now. And so that's also negative reinforcing. If you don't do these things, you're gonna have a bad time. So there's a lot of reinforcing that happens on an adult level. But I think it's also really important for us to acknowledge that this starts much younger, that behavior modeling. But also, if there are boy children and girl children, any combination of household stuff, disproportionately, the girl children get tasked to help mom with more of the domestic load and the mental load than boy children tend to be. So that can include things like cleaning or like, honey, can you go in and grab that grocery list off the counter, because we're already all in the car. Typically, girl children tend to get 50% more tasks than their boy siblings do. And so this starts really, really young. And, you know, it even starts with, you know, if mom is cleaning, I mean, there are pink and purple little broom and mop sets that you can buy. The concept of child kitchens, our children mimic everything that their parents are doing, and that includes, you know, a misdivision of domestic labor that includes mental load work as well. And if you watch little kids playing with Barbie dolls or dolls, you're probably gonna, at some point in time, watch the fight go through of like, you didn't remind me of this. And, you know, and that happens even in their play. So there. It starts really, really young.

[Allison]

I think about how that ends up playing out with time. Like when you say women are doing three times the amount of household labor that's spread out over the evenings and the weekends, it's. Our downtime is disproportionately spent on maintaining the household.

[Maggie Holland]

Yep, absolutely. Yeah. And I think we mentioned talking about Eve Rodsky. So what we're talking about there specifically, she's. She kind of did this fair play book that talks really directly about dividing this domestic labor, working with the mental load stuff. And something that, you know, really struck me as I read through that was as she did a ton of interviews for this. She's not a mental health therapist, but she did her work. It's a really great book. And she Interviewed hundreds and hundreds of couples. Fine tuning. She's got a, she's got this card deck that you can divide the work out. We're going to talk about that more later. You can divide the work out. And so she did all of this fine tuning. She had all of these beta testers and then she interviewed them. And a theme that she pulled from all of her research for this was, and I quote, there is this notion that men's time is free, finite, and women's time is infinite. Women can just come up with more time. Right. And, but as we're talking about it, it's just, you know, women have to, someone has to do it and women just do it and figure it out. And so it's after work, it's in the middle of the night, it's on their mornings, it's on the weekends. Sometimes it's in the middle of their work day. You know, like a, a teacher calls and says, you know, so and so doesn't have lunch money. And you're like, okay, here's my credit card. That is mental load work and that's domestic work. And so as we're looking at it, all of those things, I know that piece doesn't sound really big, like, okay, here's my credit card. To reload that phone call maybe takes five minutes. But if you have a five minute call every single day of your work day, you all of a sudden spent a half an hour doing work for your family while you're at work. So it adds up really, really quickly, even these small little chunks of ones. But coming back to that, like the valuing of time. Yeah. There is this notion that men's time is finite and women's time is infinite. Like magicians pulling flags out of their hand, infinite time. They just pull time out of the.

[Allison]

Cosmos somewhere because it all still needs to get done. Right. So it appears as such. It seems as though. But really there's this huge consequence to us around our well being because we prioritize these things that do need to get done.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah.

[Allison]

At our own expense.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes, absolutely. And you know, and we're talking a lot about, I'm using a lot of examples with kids. That is not accidental and that's not a bias. I'm just playing on that. I have not looked at the reason I keep bringing up kids. Obviously there's a lot more work when there's more people in the household. Right. But our research also points to that. Even men who did closer to their fair share of things before having kids, kids is like the great game changer when it comes to mental load. Things can still absolutely be imbalanced before having kids, or if you never want to have kids, a client never wants to have kids. Things can still absolutely be imbalanced because of these social learnings and stuff. But our research shows that once kids come into the equation, that even if a partner was doing fairly equitable household work, that they significantly cut back after kids come into the picture. And so some of the, some of the stats I was seeing on this is up to five hours a week. Right. And so of less work, less work than the female partner. And some of that's, you know, you can't really help it because if you're doing chest feeding, breastfeeding, like he can't do that. Right. A male partner just can't do that. But it's not being compensated for for the things that a male partner can do just across the board. Not all partners are awful in this way, don't get me wrong. But it's just acknowledging that bias that comes in of just research shows across the board, it's pretty stark. After kids, it's most noticeable after kid or kids come into the picture. And the more kids obviously that a family has, typically the more imbalanced it gets.

[Allison]

So how does this play out for same sex couples? I'm curious if there's a better split there. I really want there to be.

[Maggie Holland]

There is.

[Allison]

Sake.

[Maggie Holland]

There is. There absolutely is. Yeah. So research on same sex couples tends to show that it is much more egalitarian with the assigning of tasks. And it just tends to be that there's more communication around it. You know, my gut says that this is also some societal learning around how male versus female should be, quote, unquote communicating. And so in same sex marriages, relationships, they're closer to the same page, usually doing things better. But for the most part, our research shows that it's much more equitable as they're dividing by labor. And same sex marriages tend to actually divide based on their strengths a lot more naturally. And so there tends to be. When it comes to mental load, all relationships have their issues, but when it comes to mental load and domestic work tends to be less resentment around those tasks because there's better communication about it and just already more equitable division of labor. And there's. And then they come back and talk about it as well based on strengths, weaknesses, working with each other with that.

[Allison]

Okay, awesome. That's good to hear.

[Maggie Holland]

So that, and that's, that's primarily why I'm talking about Heterosexual relationships is, is because that's primarily what we're talking about today. Like, this doesn't tend to impact same sex relationships as much, but it can still happen, right? Anything can happen in any relationship, frankly. But just across the board, for the most part, this is primarily impacting female women who have a male partner, particularly more so when they have children. Kid or children. Yes. Okay, good news there. So if you primarily work with same sex couples, it's definitely something to be aware of. It's definitely something to look at because it can still happen, but it just doesn't tend to happen as often. Yeah. So a little, little sunshine of good news, Lorraine, there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Allison]

So I'm thinking about how we bring this up in session with clients particularly. I mean, some people are coming in for relationship struggles, some people are not coming in for relationship struggles. They're coming in because they're overwhelmed, because they feel like no matter what they do, they can never catch up.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes.

[Allison]

How do you approach this with clients?

[Maggie Holland]

So I'm a little bit biased. I'm going to go ahead and say that I pretty much only work with women and I pretty much only work anxiety. So as you're saying, like, I'm overwhelmed. Yep. That's exactly what I see all day, every day. So I think some of this is most of the time we're pretty good interviewers of like, okay, what else is under here? What else is going on? You know, if we've worked these things, you're doing these coping skills and you're still overwhelmed. Is this an environmental issue? Is this something bigger? Right. And so big things that tend to be red flags for me to look for, do we need to adjust? Some of this mental load is overwhelmed. That doesn't seem to go away. Spinning thoughts where we cannot go to sleep at night because we can't turn our brain off. Usually we're ticking through a to do list. I'm like, well, what are you thinking about at night now? If it's fears, we're talking a little bit different anxiety work. But I'm thinking about, I have to get up and pack the kids lunch and this and this. We're talking mental load there. Right. So overwhelm we're talking can't get your brain to shut off, particularly when you need to sleep. Another big one that comes up is resentment. You start hearing resentment for a partner creep in and that can happen in a couple sessions. You start seeing, man, there's some resentment I can't get a finger on here. Or if you just start Hearing like, can I just complain about my partner for a second? And then starts talking about these things. We're talking mental load there. So those are kind of my red flag ones that I look for. There can be more depending on the individual person and how they are handling things. But those are the three that I look for. So overwhelm that we just can't quite see, seem to work through and to regulate. And no matter what we do, it's there. Spinning thoughts that we just cannot get that brain to turn off and resentment toward a partner. Those are the three things where I then start asking bigger questions about mental load and domestic labor division, emotional labor division. Those are your cues. So once it comes up and we identify, okay, there might be a mental load thing happening, what do we do? Right. I always start with psychoeducation. That's the biggest one of like, have you heard of the phrase mental load? Okay, what do you know about that? What don't you know about that? Let's talk about what that is, how it happens, the societal things that come into it. Really removing the shame from that. And then kind of talking about, hey, let's talk about the toll this takes on you. So as you're talking about, your brain is not turning off at night. That is probably because you are responsible for more than your fair share in this household. Your brain is like, we cannot go to sleep. I have to continue working. My brain has to continue thinking. And so talking about the toll it takes, divided attention, struggle concentrating. Right. Because no matter what we say as women, you cannot multitask. Your brain is not built for that. You're just doing two tasks at less than 100%. So it reduces your concentration, it increases your stress levels, it builds anxiety. As we're talking about, it decreases the likelihood that you are going to take care of yourself and do self care. And it absolutely increases exhaustion and fatigue. So sleep issues, tension issues. You might even start seeing people have like physical symptoms, psychosomatic symptoms of like tension in shoulders or headaches or, you know, things that they're struggling to put a finger on of like, where is this coming from? All of that can be part of that toll that it takes.

[Allison]

Yeah.

[Maggie Holland]

So kind of really, because it's unpaid and unseen work. Sometimes the ramifications from that, unseen as well. And if we don't have anything to connect it to because it's invisible, it really feels like it's coming from nowhere. And there is true psychosomatic stuff coming that can come up for people, but sometimes it's also something that people can't see. That's our jobs. Right, Right.

[Allison]

The presentation of this information is so important. I'm thinking about the way I've presented it to friends in the past versus clients.

[Maggie Holland]

Yep.

[Allison]

And partly I'm very careful with the way I present it to clients because of the way it totally threw a bombshell in one of my friends marriages because we just read Fair Play in my family. We'd gotten the Fair Play cards. We had kind of divvied up who does what currently. And my amazing partner was like, holy shit. Like this. I had no idea that you were taking on so much.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah.

[Allison]

I'm so sorry. How can we make this more equitable? Perfect response, Right?

[Maggie Holland]

Yes.

[Allison]

So and, and did and followed through and now he has more cards than I do. But my, I had a good friend who doesn't have a husband with the same values. We'll say, and she's not a big reader. So I was like, here, just take these cards home. Just borrow my cards.

[Maggie Holland]

Oh, no. Oh, no.

[Allison]

You guys can divvy them up.

[Maggie Holland]

No. Okay.

[Allison]

Yeah, it was bad. It was really bad.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah.

[Allison]

And it caused this huge fight for them. It caused stress in my. And strained in my relationship with her because she felt like I caused this problem in her relationship that wasn't nearly as bad as postcards. It was.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes.

[Allison]

And so versus like, the way that I will bring it up with clients is I'll often be like, have you read this book?

[Maggie Holland]

Yes.

[Allison]

I want to warn you that it's going to piss you off, but it is going to provide some solutions for the things that are going to piss you off in this book. So I would recommend any therapist who is going to work with people in the middle of to read Fair Play.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes.

[Allison]

All the way through. Listen to it. I don't care how you read, but do the whole thing before you start pointing clients to it.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes, absolutely. And you know, example, very close to home. I also just pulled the cards. I'm like, my, my partner is super equitable. He's going to be great with this. Right. And because we didn't read the book first, it also turned out to be a bit of a. Like, well, are you just trying to tell me I'm a crappy partner? Like, what is this? You know, I wasn't intending to, but like, I guess here we are. Right. And then you buckle down. Highly, highly suggest book first and then cards. Because really the Fair Play book talks about this issue a little bit. It talks about some of the research. I'm talking about but it also brings up some really other, other good resources, particularly if you're like, okay, we're pretty equitable with the domestic load, but like the emotional labor, not on the same page. She's got other things that she talks about in that book, so I highly recommend it. But a big part of the book is talking about how to reframe biases that you come into this with. So that bias of, like, men's time is finite and women's time is infinite. Big thing this book talks about is everybody's got the same amount of minutes in the day, you know, and so it's really just about valuing them the same. And another big thing she talks about is that word value comes up. Big thing that she talks about is values of like, why do we want to do this? Well, we want to model healthy relationships to our kids. We want to model that you need to be cleanly, that you need to do things on time and punctual. You need to take care of yourself. All of these things that are really important. She helps you zone in on identifying some of that. But it is so important how you talk about it the first time, because it can go. I have had clients that now their male partner is the biggest proponent of this card deck and tells all of their couple friends, like, you've got to get these cards. That changed my marriage so much better. Me and my partner on the same page, run a team because it done well, it can empower a male partner that's not contributing as much to understand how to do so. And it can help a female partner to let go, particularly if they're perfectionists or they're like, I'll just do it myself. It's. It's faster and more efficient, like efficiency mindset. But how we talk about it is so important, particularly coming back to talk about reducing that shame that comes with it. So as I present this to clients, I kind of like to bring up, hey, I really suggest this book. For anybody who's looking at this book. The last 30% of the pages are her research in bibliography and talking more about the cards in depth. So it looks like a regular sized book. It's not going to take you as long to read as a regular size book. So highly suggest it. It goes really quickly, particularly as therapist, you can probably skip through a lot of the sections because you won't need all of them as in depth as, you know, a client might. But really bringing up like, have you read this book? I highly suggest it. It goes with these cards. This gives you the outline of how to play with it, play the cards together. But also really coming back and acknowledging that societal piece to reduce shame. Like, your partner likely isn't doing this because they think that you are not worthy and they want you to be working more than them. They probably just don't see it. And that is societal training. And like, you probably don't see it because it's societal training. And that doesn't make you an overachiever. Probably are, but that doesn't say anything about you. And that doesn't say anything about him. That says something about our society and our parents doing the best that they could raising us in the society that they had access to. And these are the messages you got. You don't have to keep them if they're not working for you. But really talking. I like to specifically hammer home that societal messaging that you didn't get to choose, but you grew up with. That doesn't make your partner the bad guy. That doesn't necessarily make you the hero. Although it can feel like you're the martyr.

[Allison]

But as we never does any relationship any good.

[Maggie Holland]

No, no. It just feels awful. But it does give you something to stand behind of, like, look how much I'm doing. But I like to specifically emphasize, as you bring this up with clients, the societal learning that this comes from so that that can reduce some of the shame. Like this. It didn't start with you. You didn't give your child self these messages. Okay. We can unlearn them. You can give your kids, if you have kids, nuance. Yeah.

[Allison]

Yeah. I love that.

[Maggie Holland]

Really. Shame. Get out. Get out in front of that shame. Big time. And if you suggest the cards, please emphasize the book should come first because that's really. The cards come with a manual, but really the book is the manual.

[Allison]

And I think for people who are very motivated to make change, it's easy to hop into the cards.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah. Yep.

[Allison]

So. And dangerous.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes, very dangerous.

[Allison]

Thinking about, like, the finite time for men and the infinite time for women and us, kind of just creating the time to get these things done that absolutely need to be done and some of the sacrifices that come as a result of that. The. The things that fall by the wayside, the time with friends, the things for our own passion projects. The things that, I mean, I don't know the percentage of women I've talked to, but probably like 99 of women that I talk to in middle age who are like, I don't even know what's fun.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah.

[Allison]

I don't know how to have fun anymore because there hasn't been time for it because you've been shoving in tasks that needed to get done.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes. And that kind of like sitting at the end of the day like, what did I do tonight? You're probably looking at mental load stuff there. But yeah, some of the big things. First thing you mentioned right there was you don't have time to take care of yourself. So self care is one of the first things that starts to go by the wayside, let alone these other really wonderful things like adult friendships and just going out with with a girlfriend to just talk the two of you as adults. And so self care really goes out the window. Adult friendships really go out the window. I know we've been talking about Eve Rodsky a lot. She's also got a secondary book that she expanded from the Fair Play book that's called Find your unicorn space. And Unicorn Space, is that fun you're talking about? That is pursuing passion projects. That is, you know, doing things that light you up. The crap of it is then your partner's more attracted to you. And so if your partner helps you with these things more, they find you more interesting and, and then you get lit up and they get lit up about it for you and then all of a sudden they get to cheerlead you with something. But I know that that feels like a way far away dream for a lot of women. But those are the three big ones that really start going by the wayside as far as self work goes. But then there's also a real societal and economic implication to this too, of like there's a huge pay gap. And actually the pay gap between mothers and non mothers is actually bigger than the pay gap between women and men, just in general. Oh, it's a bigger pay gap because a lot of mothers, because of these societal conditionings of who takes over the childcare, end up leaving the workforce. And even if that's just for five to 10 years, you know, when you get back into the workforce, it is really hard, if not almost sometimes impossible, depending on your job, to get back in at the same level that you left at. And so then you're starting closer to the beginning than where you left. And so that pay gap is actually bigger between mothers and non mothers than men and women in general. And then just thinking about the economic and societal implications, that's a big reason why we don't have women on more boards to decide different really big things. And that's why we don't have more women CEOs. There's been a change in that in the last five to 10 years. Love that. And also, this is a big reason why we don't have more of that and why it feels like the pace of that changing is pretty slow. So there's also really big societal and economic implications to this. Now, if women want to stay home and take care of their kids, because that gives them joy, absolutely do that. But the implication is, you know, if a woman maybe doesn't necessarily want to do that, but she kind of feels she has to, that's really hard on her mental health. It's really hard on her financial independence, which creates, as you're seeing, this has ripple effects as we don't talk about mental load stuff. It just, you bring up any new thing and it gets bigger and bigger.

[Allison]

What are some ways to problem solve this situation?

[Maggie Holland]

I think for those of you out there that do couples therapy, first of all, bless you.

[Allison]

Thank you.

[Maggie Holland]

Thank you. I said this in the last time we talked about it. Couldn't do it. Glad there's people that do it. So this is something you can kind of bring up a little bit more directly. You can bring cards in a session. You can talk about it a little bit more directly. I'm an individual therapist and I work with women, so I'm going to go through that side of things. But. But do know this is a really great thing to bring to couples sessions. When I have colleagues that have successfully brought partners in and talked to them about it, even when they do individual work, I don't do that. That I don't have enough training to adequately do that. I refer out to a couples counselor. But you can directly talk about it in the relationship and do those cards together and talk about the domestic load, but let's talk about how we do this with individual clients. Right? So first of all, coming back to like really doing a ton of education on it. So a big piece of, of doing this is helping her understand, again, my bias. I work with women, so I'm coming from this perspective. You can do it the opposite way with men of, you know, but really first, understanding what is mental load really working on, like defining it, what does that look like? What is the impacts for you? And that can look like, let's go through the symptoms that I'm seeing with you that could be impacted by this. Not say this is the root cause of everything, but let's look at the symptoms that could be impacted by this. Let's look at how this impacts your values of, okay, I really want to be a good mom. Or I want to be an engaged mom. Let's say that's one of your clients values. Okay. Looking at how you actually have the ability to be better and more engaged caretaker when you take some time for yourself when this stuff is balanced. And so really looking at how does this impact you specifically with your symptoms, with what's going on in your life, how does this align with your values really bringing it home with lots and lots of not shaming. So lots of this is societal stuff. This doesn't mean that you've been a bad mom because you haven't noticed this up until now. We're just working to help you strive towards those values more and more. We're always growing. So that's a big thing that I talk about as we talk about mental load. I say that phrase a lot. We're always growing. You are always growing. Your partner is always growing. Doesn't mean that this is malicious or intentional. It's just something that's been invisible. So let's make it visible so we can be really intentional about the choices we make with it. So first thing, always coming back to education with lots of anti shame language. That's the first place that I start. And then I think the second place I like to go with that of creating your own language around some of it because sometimes you really don't mind some of those domestic tasks. And this is not like the hill that you're going to die on. And so creating some common language for you and any partner that is struggling with that. I'm saying you I'm in client mode right now. So to help your clients create some common language that they can talk to their partner about and that can. You can use Eve Rodsky's Fair Play deck cards. It can be something else totally different. I've also had clients that kind of took this idea and then they pulled their own note cards and made their own set. It can kind of be however. But creating common language around it and bringing consciousness for both of you to it is really, really important. So common language, talking about it, getting it on the table can mention it. We can manage it and keep working that together.

[Allison]

I think about there's flexibility in you don't have to go buy the book. However Eve Rodsky or whomever lays it out. I'm thinking about how last Christmas I'm the one who decorates for the holidays because I love to decorate.

[Maggie Holland]

Right.

[Allison]

So I decorated and I'd also been keeping in my notes app just writing down over the last several months random things the girls Said that they wanted for Christmas or just like, oh, I love that about something one of their friends had. So I'd been keeping this list.

[Maggie Holland]

Yep.

[Allison]

And then I just started buying those things online just real quick while I had the time. No big deal.

[Maggie Holland]

Yep.

[Allison]

We have a pajama thing on Christmas Eve. So I like got us all our pajamas and I had all the wrapping out. So as soon as things would come in, I'd wrap it and put it under the tree. And by the time we were done hosting the 17 people, I think that came over the next morning. I'm an early riser. I just like, I woke up and started taking everything down and was just furious. I did everything, including getting my own presence.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah. Oh.

[Allison]

My partner came down. He came down at like maybe 6:30 in the morning and he's like, oh, wow, you are taking things down. I'm gonna sit and have my coffee. Which of course further infuriated me.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah.

[Allison]

And I was feeling extraordinarily self righteous about all of it. But then my husband, who like is totally unafraid of any confrontation, was just like, hey, can we talk about what's happening right now? And I was like. He's like, okay. Are you willing to hear about it from my perspective?

[Maggie Holland]

Sure.

[Allison]

I didn't know who's getting what presents. I didn't know what came in the mail was for putting it all together versus not.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah.

[Allison]

You were just like a lone ranger over here doing all of it. You didn't ask for help one time. I would have helped.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah.

[Allison]

And I know you don't want to have to delegate a thing that you're already doing, but you didn't give me an opportunity.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah.

[Allison]

And all of that was 100 true. And I had just like taken responsibility for over functioning during a busy time. Because that's how I handle busy times is I just do more. Well, we decided instead of one of us being solely responsible, which is part of Eve's thing, is like, you're the one like thinking through it. You're the one executing on it. You're the one planning all of that. In my notes app. My good friend notes app. Christmas 2024. I have. Here's the frittata we made that was so good. Here's the recipe for it. Also, sit down with Joel and order all the presents at once and wrap them all together when they come in. Just put them in the hiding spot and set a date to wrap them all together. The two of you.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes.

[Allison]

So that I don't resent him for things I did, basically.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah, absolutely. I think some of this, too, of, like, holidays are a big one, because as we're talking about, there's already a lot of daily things that have to happen. That's a ton of work. And then you add a holiday on top of it.

[Allison]

Yeah.

[Maggie Holland]

And we put a lot of really big holidays together in the last three months of the year. Four major holidays. Right. We've got people who do Halloween, we've got Thanksgiving, and then we've got the December holidays, and then we have a new year that starts. And so that is a marathon sprint time. You don't get to pick one. It's both.

[Allison]

Right.

[Maggie Holland]

And so as we look at these, I think a really big one is, you know, also helping our clients to understand what the commitment to doing some more domestic labor division is and mental load labor. What does that look like? And so the biggest thing is telling your clients, got to commit to really open communication. Right. So that, hey, when someone says, are you open to hearing what's going on? For me right now, we have the emotional regulation to say, yes. And then also, your clients have the communication skills to be like, okay, how can I hear you? And actively listen in a way that means that your client can hear their partner. So there's a ton of work that goes into this that we already do as therapists, like working regulation skills, working insight, working values. I said regulation, communication stuff. And the communication has to be really regular with it, too. I think this does work best as we check in and we talk to our partners a lot, and we practice that communication because, quote, cognition is low when emotions are high. Right. Like, I'm not thinking about it. My head has burst into flames, and I'm putting decorations, and I can't hear you through the flames, quite frankly. Right. And some of that, too, of, like, as we're talking about this, I know this feels like a mountain of tasks that you would have to talk to your clients about, but holidays are a really great example. Right. I love wrapping gifts. I don't know why. Obsessed with it. If I could just wrap gifts every day for the rest of my life, that's what I would do. But so some of that of, like, my partner cannot wrap a gift to save his life. Sorry to call him out like that, but he can't. He wraps my gifts, and I'm like, you tried. There's paper all over this, and I can't see what it is. Funny. Just a funny thing. But I love to wrap gifts, therefore delegating gift wrapping to my partner. Doesn't make sense. I take delight in that. And so if there's things that we can, you know, kind of pull back to, like, how do we delegate this in a way that plays to our strengths and weaknesses? How do we delegate this in a way that the crap work? There's things that none of us, like when it comes to holidays or any task, can we divide that up of like, okay, I'm holding the task of I'm gonna cook dinner every single night. We both hate it. So I'm gonna hold it three days of the week and that's gonna be my less busy days of the week. That takes a lot of communication right there. But when your partner knows, okay, you have a lighter workload day on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and so you can realistically have the brain power to do the meal cooking or prepping or whatever, then your partner knows, it's really clear all of a sudden. And so then we nip that resentment in the bud and we kind of cut out a lot of that argument. So like, I thought you said you were going to do it. Well, now what are we having for dinner? Right? And then that last minute franticness adds more stress. But as we work with our clients, being really honest about this is a pervasive issue. It's going to take time. You're going to have to commit to redividing mental load labor. You are going to have to, I'm thinking, talking to my female clients, you're going to have to do some education at your partner. You can totally give him this fair playbook. And he just was not raised to look at these things. And so you just have to realistically know that that can be kind of frustrating. And, and so how do we recognize that frustration and regulate it? How do we keep that, breathe through it, communicate really healthy and calmly. And so I think a lot of, as we talk about this as therapists, we're already doing a lot of these skills coaching and, and emotional regulation or just applying it to a very touchy subject, which we already do. Everybody is equipped to talk about this. We already do this. But it does take a huge commitment to work this as a team. And I like to emphas that this makes any relationship or marriage better in the long term. When you feel like you're on a team with your partner, then you can kind of do anything. You tackle the world, right? And this is a really foundational way to begin building trust. Have a client build trust in their partner. That I'm saying he, but he's capable and that can begin building that for our brain to learn a new message. I can task him with things and he can do it to our standards, and then I'm less stressed and wow, that's pretty cool.

[Allison]

You know, And I love your point about our standards. Yes. That's the thing I had to get used to as, like, your earlier point about women often have higher standards around these household tasks.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah. The wrapping. I would never. I love my partner and you. But dinosaur ribbon with snowman wrapping favorite. I would never. But, yeah, that's just a little one. But a good. A lighthearted example.

[Allison]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember there was a point where I was feeling like things might must be inequitable because there were things that I didn't see done that I wanted done, but they were done, just not the way I would do them.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Allison]

I had a good conversation with a friend who was like, it was all about dishes being in the sink when I got home.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes.

[Allison]

I do them immediately.

[Maggie Holland]

Yep.

[Allison]

He's in charge of dishes at that time. And my friend was just like, who gives a shit? Does it matter? Does it really matter if they get done? Is it worth creating stress in your marriage? Is it worth basically, like, how would you feel if you always got it done, you just didn't do it exactly the minute he wanted you to?

[Maggie Holland]

Yes.

[Allison]

I appreciated her kind of calling me out gently of like, if you want it done like that so badly, you need to take that on.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah.

[Allison]

And so it's looking at, like, your own stuff around it. Because ultimately it also does come back to the woman if the house isn't perfectly clean. Nobody, nobody walks into your house and thinks, man, this guy really doesn't take care of his home.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes.

[Allison]

It's always a reflection on the woman.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And I love the example. I don't know if you've seen there's like a funny video on Instagram. It's just like a little reel. But this person that is, like my biggest fear, going to the OB GYN and she's going to run in and she's going to, like, undo my pile of clothes and be like, look at these underwear. Right. Like, nobody does that coming into your house. They're not like, that pillow is out of line and this is a pig sigh. And your. Your house is a failure.

[Allison]

Right.

[Maggie Holland]

But we do have those fears. And as clinicians, as we poke at this, this can really highlight for us, like, some rigid thinking, some really big fears this can highlight. Is there childhood stuff around? How did your mother conceptualize other People's perceptions. Right. Like, this can bring up a lot of really great work as we poke. And I know that this is one of those, I say with couples, like, we're not really fighting about the dishes. Right. We're fighting about like you respecting my time and all these other things that go on under it. But likewise with us as clinicians, we're not really talking about the dishes. As we talk about the standards for dishes, we're not really talking about whatever that task is. We're talking about something deeper for each person. Right? Yeah, yeah. And so it can bring up really great clinical work. As we poke at this mental load stuff, I find a lot of times that it is really important for clients to hit standards. And there's a lot of things that go into deciding what those standards are. But as we poke at those, it can also be really fruitful conversation for deeper stuff that feels less intense than being like, let's talk about how awful your mother is. It's like, where did this come from? Let's get. It's a little more curious because it feels non threatening, like, it's just the dishes. And so. But us saying, in a lot of society saying it's just the dishes, sometimes our clients can then approach it a little bit of like, I know it's just dishes and there's more to it for me. Right. So then that brings up really great clinical work that we can work on. Rigid thinking and perfectionism and external validation needs that are out of proportion for functionality and all these kinds of things that we work with anyway, this can be a way for us to poke into some of those.

[Allison]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Maggie Holland]

So a lot of this, I know this is like a topic that we don't talk about a whole lot, but for the most part as clinicians, we're very equipped to handle these things. Already. You're. I would guarantee everybody watching this is already in some way, shape or form, whatever modality you use, equipped to work mental load stuff from whatever framework. But just specifically it can be really. I've watched it be very validating for a lot of my female clients when this gets highlighted that this is a thing, this is enough of a thing that there is a name for it. There's a lot of research on it. You are not making something up and like, you're not an outlier here. A feeling like this, it can be really validating to get that label on it. Not label necessarily, but to bring this up and bring it to consciousness and be like, no, you are not crazy out of your Mind, you're not an outlier. Any of those things that our clients can say to themselves. You're not naggy. We might need to just re. Approach how we talk to your partner about it and redivide it. And you might need to change some things too, and then you can do that work with your client of what needs to change for them.

[Allison]

Absolutely. And I think also having resources. If you have a client who has resources to outsource some things, there's so much we don't need to do ourselves if we do have the resources to hire out. I have a big group of girlfriends who are using this laundry Service. It's like 20 bucks to do all your laundry.

[Maggie Holland]

Yeah.

[Allison]

Is it worth 20 bucks if you can afford it?

[Maggie Holland]

Yes. Yes.

[Allison]

You're not having a bold. You're not leaving anything in the washer too long, like.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes.

[Allison]

Finding those kinds of things that can help take some things off the family's plate.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes.

[Allison]

Not just trying to reallocate all of them.

[Maggie Holland]

Yes. Yes. Example I love to use is, we have a pretty big yard where I'm at. And some things came up in my partner's, like, I can't mow the yard this year. It's just not, like, feasible with our schedule where it's sitting. Right. So I'm like, okay, like, let's hire somebody for the yard work. Right. But the yard work is not something I've typically really ever done. I do the gardening. I don't do the yard work stuff. Right. My partner handles that. And so I'm like, okay. But as we talk about this, as we talk about bringing in outside help, we gotta be really considerate that mental load. Right. Because it's not just about hiring the person. It's researching who is gonna come in. It's calling for quotes. It's scheduling time so they can come look at your yard. Of, like, how big is this yard? And what should I quote you? Mm. It's being home. So, like, I have my backyard dispensed. So it's being home to let them into the yard because it doesn't open from the outside for safety stuff. So it's being home to let them in. Right. If they have to change scheduling, are they calling me or are they calling you? Right. And so then we're talking about all that mental load that goes with it. And so if your. If your partner or a partner is typically responsible for the lawn care, then all the mental load work that goes with hiring somebody, we have to divide that equally too. And you can totally divide that I know. So Eve Rodsky's system, like, has one person. So, like, my partner would hold the entire lawn care task if we were doing Erodsky's system. But if you have good communication, I do think we can split things up a little bit and that can be healthy too. But yeah, as we think about bringing in outside help, like who's dropping the laundry off, who's preparing it, who's remembering what's the pickup drop off day? Right. So that's the mental load piece that goes with that domestic task. But yeah, we just have to make sure our clients continue to see that. We have to make sure we continue to see that and just communicate about it and advocate for it.

[Allison]

Absolutely. Maggie, thank you so much.

[Maggie Holland]

Absolutely.

[Allison]

This is really helpful. I hope that this is not just helpful for clinicians with their clients, but also in their own homes.

[Maggie Holland]

Absolutely. I think this is some really powerful stuff. So thank you for having me today, Allison.

[Allison]

I hope that broadened your clinical horizons. Head over to notboringce.com to get your CE credits. Want to have a not boring conversation with me about your clinical area of expertise? You can apply there too. If you like this conversation, leave us a five star review, tell a friend, and be sure to subscribe for future conversations.