Episode #672: 5 Steps To A Thriving Group Practice, feat. Nicole McCance

Summary

Abundant Practice Podcast - Episode #672: 5 Steps To A Thriving Group Practice, feat. Nicole McCann

Host: Allison Puryear
Guest: Nicole McCann
Release Date: July 30, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode #672 of the Abundant Practice Podcast, host Allison Puryear welcomes Nicole McCann, a seasoned expert in scaling therapeutic practices. The episode delves into Nicole's five-step model for transforming solo practices into thriving group practices, ensuring increased income, reduced working hours, and enhanced operational efficiency. This comprehensive discussion offers invaluable insights for therapists aspiring to expand their private practices without compromising their work-life balance.

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Nicole McCann’s Journey to Group Practice

[02:32] Nicole McCann:
Nicole begins by sharing her personal journey from a solo practitioner to leading a group practice of 55 therapists. After 15 fulfilling years in solo practice, she encountered burnout and income stagnation. The pivotal moment came in 2026 when she became pregnant with twins, prompting her to seek a more sustainable and flexible practice model.

Key Insight:
Nicole emphasizes the importance of systemization in scaling a practice, ensuring that growth doesn't come at the expense of personal well-being or client satisfaction.

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Step 1: Systemize Your Operations

[04:53] Nicole McCann:
The foundation of a successful group practice lies in systemizing operations. Nicole advises therapists to meticulously document every aspect of their practice—from client intake procedures to billing policies. This ensures consistency and efficiency, reducing the burden on the solo practitioner.

Notable Quote:
"Writing everything down, putting it in a Google Drive, and ensuring that someone else can follow the procedures without needing to ask you how to do something is crucial." – Nicole McCann [06:21]

Actionable Tip:
Begin by creating comprehensive manuals for all operational tasks to streamline workflows and facilitate smooth onboarding of new team members.

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Step 2: Hire an Admin

[06:26] Nicole McCann:
Nicole highlights the necessity of hiring administrative support to manage the increasing workload. Contrary to popular belief, a full-time admin isn't immediately required. Starting with a part-time admin or a virtual assistant (VA) can effectively alleviate administrative burdens.

Notable Quote:
"People in my business coaching program grow twice as fast when they have an admin. It’s amazing because they’re offloading the overwhelm and the minutia." – Nicole McCann [06:56]

Actionable Tip:
Begin with a part-time admin or a VA to handle routine tasks, allowing you to focus on clinical work and strategic growth.

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Step 3: Attract Clients with Digital Marketing

[08:24] Nicole McCann:
Attracting clients efficiently is essential for a thriving group practice. Nicole advocates for the use of Google Ads as a powerful tool to bring in clients continuously, even during non-working hours.

Notable Quote:
"If your website doesn’t convert, you have a leaky bucket and you’re wasting your money." – Nicole McCann [10:01]

Actionable Tip:
Invest in a high-converting website and collaborate with experienced digital marketers to optimize your online presence and attract ideal clients.

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Step 4: Convert Clients with Consult Calls

[11:08] Nicole McCann:
Once clients are attracted to your practice, the next step is effective conversion through consult calls. Nicole recommends offering a free, bookable 20-minute consult call to engage potential clients and pre-book initial sessions.

Notable Quote:
"Having consult calls bookable online is key because then people can book when you’re sleeping." – Nicole McCann [12:25]

Actionable Tip:
Implement an online booking system for consult calls, ensuring flexibility for clients to schedule at their convenience, thereby increasing show rates and client conversion.

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Step 5: Retain Clients with Follow-ups

[13:01] Nicole McCann:
Retention is often overlooked but is crucial for sustained success. Nicole stresses the importance of follow-up communications to retain clients who may have canceled or not yet committed fully.

Notable Quote:
"Retaining clients with follow-ups can increase your bookings by 20% because some of them just got busy or needed a little nudge." – Nicole McCann [13:48]

Actionable Tip:
Assign follow-up tasks to your admin to reach out to potential clients, ensuring no opportunity for engagement is missed.

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Common Challenges and Solutions

Hiring the Right People

[15:00] Nicole McCann:
One of the significant hurdles in scaling a practice is hiring the right team members. Nicole shares her six-step hiring model, emphasizing the importance of personality over experience. She advises hiring individuals who resonate with your practice's values and can build rapport with clients effectively.

Notable Quote:
"Personality is stable and cannot be easily taught, whereas experience and skills can be gained." – Nicole McCann [23:40]

Actionable Tip:
Focus on personality traits such as conscientiousness and emotional intelligence during the hiring process to ensure team members align with your practice’s ethos.

Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

[19:08] Nicole McCann:
Mindset plays a crucial role in scaling a practice. Nicole addresses imposter syndrome, encouraging therapists to embrace leadership roles with confidence and compassion.

Notable Quote:
"Reminding therapists that we are compassionate people and that being a compassionate leader fosters a sense of belonging is vital." – Nicole McCann [19:58]

Actionable Tip:
Cultivate a positive mindset and seek mentorship or coaching to build confidence in your leadership abilities.

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Leadership and Management in a Group Practice

[20:09] Nicole McCann:
As the practice grows, establishing a clear leadership structure is essential. Nicole outlines how she transitioned from being the sole decision-maker to delegating responsibilities to clinic managers and operations leaders.

Notable Quote:
"Eventually, you want your practice to start running without you having to oversee every detail, allowing you to steer the ship rather than row it." – Nicole McCann [21:31]

Actionable Tip:
Develop a hierarchical structure with defined roles, such as clinic managers and operations personnel, to ensure smooth functioning and scalability.

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Conclusion and Final Insights

Nicole McCann’s expertise provides a roadmap for therapists aspiring to build a successful group practice. By systemizing operations, hiring strategically, leveraging digital marketing, optimizing client conversions, and focusing on retention, therapists can achieve significant growth while maintaining a balanced personal life.

Final Notable Quote:
"If you care about people and want to create a culture of growth and belonging, you will excel as a leader." – Nicole McCann [19:58]

Resources Mentioned:

• Nicole McCann’s Podcast: The Business Savvy Therapist
• Live Trainings: Weekly masterclasses on building a seven-figure group practice

Connect with Nicole McCann:

• Podcast: The Business Savvy Therapist
• Live Trainings: Nicole’s Live Trainings (Replace with actual link if available)

Additional Resources:

• Free Private Practice Checklist and Worksheets: Abundance Practice Building
• Membership Program: Abundance Party

Call to Action:
If you’re ready to elevate your practice, consider implementing Nicole’s five-step model. For further support, visit abundancepracticebuilding.com or email the team at [e-mail].

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Transcript

[Nicole McCann]

Foreign.

[Alison Per]

Hi, welcome to the Abundant Practice Podcast. I'm Alison from Abundance Practice Building. I have a nearly diagnosable obsession with helping therapists build sustainable, joy filled private practices. Just like I've done for tens of thousands of therapists across the world. I'm excited to help you too. If you want to fill your practice with ideal clients, we have loads of free resources and paid support. Go to abundance practice building.com Links all right, onto the show. So I've talked about therapy notes on here for years. I could talk about the features and the benefits in my sleep. But there are a couple things I want you to know about therapy notes that doesn't typically make it into an ad script. First is that they actually care if you like their platform. They don't only make themselves available on the phone to troubleshoot so you don't pull your hair out when you get stuck. They also take member suggestions and implement those that there's client demand for. Like Therapy Search, an included listing service that helps clients find you internal and external secure messaging clinical outcome measures to keep an eye on how your clients are progressing. A super smooth super bill process, Real time eligibility to check on your client's insurance. In my conversations with the employees there at all levels, they all really believe in their product and they want you to love it too. Second, they are proudly independently owned. Why should you care about that? Because as soon as venture capital becomes involved, the focus shifts from making customers happy to making investors happy. Prices go way up. Innovation plateaus. Making more money with as little output as possible becomes the number one focus. With over 100,000 therapists using their platform, they've been able to stay incredibly successful and they don't have to sacrifice your experience to stay there. You can try two months [e-mail] with the coupon code Abundant. Welcome back to the Abundant Practice Podcast. I'm your host, Alison Per, founder of Abundance Practice Building. I'm here with Nicole McCann. Nicole is an expert in helping us scale our practices so that we have other clinicians working for us in a way that actually works. Y' all know when we talk about group practice, I always want you to get guidance because it is not just the logical next step. Nicole, thank you so much for being here. You're going to walk us through your five step model for how to scale your practice. Can we start with how did you get started in group practice? What's kind of the origin of all of this for you?

[Nicole McCann]

Sure. Yes. And nice to be back by the way. I think I'm here Like, year ago. Yeah. I do want to share this because I feel like people will relate. I was in solo practice for 15 years and loved it. Like, how lucky are we to do this work? I was so clear that this is why I was on this planet. And then fast forward 15 years of EMDR and holding space for couples. I was burnt out. Not only burnt out, but I was sick of hitting the ceiling in my income. The only way I made money was sitting in front of someone.

[Alison Per]

Right.

[Nicole McCann]

And then one day in 2026, I become pregnant with twins and my whole life is going to double. Like, we need a bigger house, two cribs, two high chairs. Like, how does that even work? Oh, my gosh. But I can't work more. What do I do? So guess what? I did nothing. I did nothing because there was no mentor to guide me. Fast forward. I now have two year olds and mommy is still working every night until 7pm There was one night I vividly remember their chubby little faces looking out the window and. And I just burst into tears yet again. I turned to my husband and I said, I can't anymore, babe. I'm just going to do this. I'm going to start a group. But here's my promise to you, Dan. It will be systemized because I want to. The whole point is to be home more. And fast forward three years. I scaled to 55 therapists, multiple seven figures. But what I'm really proud of is it was systemized. And because it was systemized, a psychiatrist approached me to buy it and I sold it in 2022, which I never thought I would, but I did. Yeah.

[Alison Per]

And I think about the way that most therapists go into starting a group practice is not systemized.

[Nicole McCann]

Yeah.

[Alison Per]

They don't get any sort of training typically. It's just like they add on therapists and they can't scale like you did because none of them are taking on 55 therapists without a system. That would be exactly one of the circles of hell I'm sure is named after that.

[Nicole McCann]

Yes. Yes.

[Alison Per]

So let's talk through what the steps are to get to a place where you can have a group practice where you're not working significantly more than you were in solo practice, where you're not being driven crazy by everything, like everything that you're now juggling. Because group practice is not easier inherently in the way that people think it is.

[Nicole McCann]

Yes. And I wanted to increase my income without seeing more clients. That was my thing. I'm a new mom. And it's funny, I attract A lot of new moms or parents that are to be. That are kind of planning. So I created a five step scaling method that got me to very rapid results in our industry. But they work for everybody. Like if you were to ask me Alison, would you have 55 people? I would say heck no. I don't even know if I want that. But when it's systemized, it was kind of like growing without me. And I feel like when things are meant to be, they have a life of their own. So step one of course is systemize. Systemize your operations. Build the container, my people before you fill it. It's not just about posting to indee because if you do that, you will not be a C. A CEO, you will be a cqa A chief. Question answer. I know that. You know that, right? It's really overwhelming. So what I mean by systemize is writing it down, everything in your head, put in a Google Drive and then your next step. I know this is a scary one. Should be hiring an admin. You see people in my business coaching program grow twice as fast when they have an admin. It's amazing. And I think because they're offloading the overwhelm and the minutia. Yes. So that's what systemizing means. Like everything that you do, you're going to write down. So somebody doesn't have to ask you how to do that. How do I send a receipt? What's our no show policy? Like all the things, how do I respond to a new client? That's step one.

[Alison Per]

Yeah. And is this a part time admin or is this a full time admin? Where do you start?

[Nicole McCann]

Definitely. Okay, great question. I think that people don't do it because they think it needs to be full time and it absolutely doesn't. And so I'm so happy to answer this because people think it's full time and then do nothing. I would say casual or even a VA company. So a VA company is great. So when I say casual, it's like five hours a week. Whatever you need a lot of them, you actually bill per the minute. So just offload what you have and then they can grow with you.

[Alison Per]

Perfect.

[Nicole McCann]

Okay, so that's step one. Step two is that this is where you build your dream team. And I actually suggest that your first hire should be a mini me. You see, you're going to want to offload the clients eventually. That's what I wanted to do. And I made this mistake many years ago in my 20s where I moved to Russia. Long story. We'll talk about that. Another podcast. I fell in love, moved to Russia, closed my practice, and gave all of my clients to somebody who is nothing like me. So I think it's so important that they match you in personality, in modality, because your brand people expect a certain experience. And so this person that I moved 50 clients to, guess what? Not one of them stayed because they were like, oh, you're nothing like Nicole. She's like a big personality. She's really direct. And this person was not like that. So I would say, like, have your first hire be a mini me. And one more piece around hiring. I actually started with interns. Yeah. And it depends where you live. Some. And in California, you can't even hire interns, but in Canada, we don't have to pay them. So it was really nice. For cash flow, we're not allowed to pay them. Like, it's a hard. No, I didn't get paid. I know about you, but you're practicum. So these are practicum students that they get paid in training and in course credit. So that was really big for me for growth, because then it gave me cash flow.

[Alison Per]

Mm.

[Nicole McCann]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alison Per]

I think about, like, Tennessee. I don't think they're allowed to pay their interns or their practicum students or whatever. They're. So are these people who had graduated and were getting their hours? These were. These were people still in school.

[Nicole McCann]

They're in school. They're students. Yeah, exactly. Not pre license. Yeah, yeah. So pre license, we pay 10% less, typically 50% rather than 60. But here's the thing. In what industry can you boost your profit margin by 10% or make 100% of, like, gross profit? Right. Not a lot of industries. My husband used to own a cafe. If it's slow, it's slow. Like, sandwich is a sandwich. You know what I mean? So we're very lucky. Yeah.

[Alison Per]

And I would say across the board with solo practices too. Like, we're just extremely lucky to have low overhead compared to every other type of business. I know.

[Nicole McCann]

Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So that. That's step two and then step three. What really helped me was attracting clients with digital marketing. I needed something that could bring in clients when I was with my babies, when I was sleeping. And so I'm a big fan of Google Ads now. I know this. People have a lot of opinions about Google Ads. And I've seen Google Ads work, and I've seen them not work. And they don't work. If you do them yourself. Don't do that. You're a therapist with a therapist brain. But they do work if you work with somebody who knows what they're doing. But also it all comes down to your website. If your website doesn't convert, you have a leaky bucket and you're wasting your money. So the very first thing is don't do anything until you're happy with a converting website.

[Alison Per]

Yeah. And I will say I, I see niche really impacting Google Ads as well.

[Nicole McCann]

Yes.

[Alison Per]

Like as an eating disorder therapist, I have hired multiple companies to try to do Google Ads for my group practice. But we're up against treatment centers who are happy to pay a thousand dollars per click because they're going to make a ridiculous amount of money for everybody that converts, so.

[Nicole McCann]

Exactly.

[Alison Per]

It's also being mindful of like if you've got a typical therapist competition for Google Ads, you're probably just fine. They'll probably work great if you have an expert doing them.

[Nicole McCann]

Yeah.

[Alison Per]

If you're in substance abuse or eating disorders or these things where you're against giant treatment centers, it can be a lot more difficult.

[Nicole McCann]

Yes. And it boils down because we're bidding on keywords. So if you can ask yourself, okay, like everybody is bidding on anxiety, depression, trauma. So if you can offer as a group practice. I wasn't niche. It's hard to be niche with 55 people. Yeah, but we, each person had a specialty. We had an ADHD person, somebody specialized in autism, et cetera. So if we had those as keywords, that's amazing. So you want to be strategic and work with a company who's going to tell you what keywords work best where you live.

[Alison Per]

Yes.

[Nicole McCann]

Now step four. So, okay, the clients are coming in. Oh my gosh. My website is working. The keywords are working. But now it's time to convert the clients with consult calls. They're not clients yet. What really works for me, what I train, is a free bookable online 20 minute consult call. And I've tested a consult call that is 15 minutes because I help people do private pay. So there's consult calls. And 20 minutes does better because you need the last five minutes of the call to pre book four sessions to get the credit card to go over the cancellation policy. And having it bookable online is really key because then people can book when you're sleeping because. Did you know? Do you know when like pop quiz. Do you know when most people book therapy?

[Alison Per]

Oh, I'm guessing it's really late at night or early morning just because that's when they're up late worrying yeah, dressing.

[Nicole McCann]

So Jane did a study and they found that after 7pm because they're practice management software. So they can literally take all the data after 7 usually. And my members just told me yesterday in coaching, like they're getting midnight, 1am, 2am yes, you got it. And your admin is not there. And they're probably the bottleneck. So I would have consult calls bookable online.

[Alison Per]

And are the consult calls with the therapist they want to see or is it with somebody whose job that is?

[Nicole McCann]

Great question. We tried both with the therapist they want to see. Because the thing is, we're in the industry, we're of trust. We tried it with the admin and guess what? They still wanted the consult call with the therapist. So here I am, like, you know, we're doubling up on consult calls. Also, the show rate is much higher when people book. Research shows this too themselves, rather than going through a contact form and admin booking them.

[Alison Per]

Interesting. Okay.

[Nicole McCann]

Yeah, a VA company found that. So then you're going to be offering the consult calls with your therapist. They're getting booked. But wait, there's more. There's one last step. This is a step that is missed by everybody. Retain the client, but with follow ups. Follow ups. So what that means is, you know that no show yesterday that canceled client or remember that one that just ghosted, they came six times and like they went on vacation, never saw them again. Or that person that did have a consult but had to talk to their spouse about couples counseling. There's so many therapists that actually aren't following up. This is your admin. You know that person you hired for five hours, they're going to follow up. And this can increase your bookings by 20% because some of them want to book. They just got busy. How many times in your life has that happened?

[Alison Per]

Oh, my gosh, yes. A thousand times. And especially if you work with people with executive functioning issues.

[Nicole McCann]

Exactly. Or depression.

[Alison Per]

Yes. I see this a lot with therapists where they're like, well, it's on them. Like it's, it's. The ball is in their court. I want them to take responsibility for this. I'm like, now is not the stage.

[Nicole McCann]

And you got it.

[Alison Per]

Now is the time they come to you for support. So support them. And that looks like following up.

[Nicole McCann]

Yes, that looks like being the guide. Yeah, yeah. And that is it. So all of those things. Don't skip a step. I teach people like the nitty gritty of how to do it. Let me know if you have any questions. We can dig in More to any of them.

[Alison Per]

Yeah. Well, where. What are the hiccups that come up for people in your program? In each. You talked about the first one of like, hiring an admin feels very daunting for somebody who's like, well, I don't have the extra money yet. Why would I go pay somebody? So I get that one is probably the biggest hiccup there. But what are some of the other ones that happen for folks?

[Nicole McCann]

I think systemizing, and this is why I give people all. I give them my manuals because they're already written, you know, which saves a lot of time. But I think systemizing is boring. Let's be honest. Do you want to sit down? Like, I don't. So I find it's easier for people to like, customize, but I think that they want to hire because that's where the money flows in. They want to skip the step. And for me, my biggest thing that I help people is like, not to hire the wrong people. Have you ever hired the wrong person?

[Alison Per]

Yes. That's a lot. It's a lot.

[Nicole McCann]

It is a lot. Yeah. So, like, what to look out for? You know, I have like a six step hiring model where it's like, go through all six steps. Because I believe you want to only hire your. Hell, yeah. As those person that. Those people during the interview that you're super impressed with. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Alison Per]

Because these are. I mean, it's. I'm never one to be like, oh, your workplace is your family. I don't want to say that because those are always the most toxic places. But you end up spending a lot of time and energy. You need to really genuinely trust and enjoy everybody that you hire.

[Nicole McCann]

Yeah.

[Alison Per]

If I wouldn't send my friends or family, like, if I wouldn't book my mom with you, if you had your own practice, then I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna hire you.

[Nicole McCann]

Yes. That's so funny. I literally say at the end of the interview, you should ask yourself, would I go out for lunch with this person? Are they warm enough that, like, this conversation flows? They're high neq. But would I book therapy with them? If it's a no, then I would not invite them in. Because if you think about it, they have a small window to build rapport very quickly and book a consult. And they need to. The, like, the best therapists who get the busiest are able to just flow and like, show up so warm and can hold space well.

[Alison Per]

And I'm wondering, how does that work with people like interns or practicum students when they, you know, I probably wouldn't book with a practicum student at this stage. They're still learning. How do you suss out who's got real potential?

[Nicole McCann]

Yeah, really good question. I hire. I found lots of trial and error, as you can imagine. How many interviews I did with 55 people. I'm getting to 55, that I actually ended up hiring interns that were older, a little bit more mature in age. I found those that were green in their career and green in age didn't get that booked. They just looked really young. And we both know the photo and the bio really makes a difference for booking, so that made a difference. But I will say there's some interns where they can hold the space. Like, they've gone through. Just because they didn't read the books and they're not done their internship doesn't really mean that they're actually a quality. They're, like, born to be a therapist. You know what I mean? Yeah. So that was always in the back of my head during the interview that, like, okay, how do. Can you hold the space? And here's the big one. The three big things that matter is, are they confident?

[Alison Per]

Mm.

[Nicole McCann]

It's confidence that comes with years. Right. But this sense of confidence that I'm. I got you. It doesn't have to be. I know all the. The modalities in my head, and, you know, that confidence may not be there yet, but this real sense that I got you. And people can feel that. And I find those that do their own therapy come with that.

[Alison Per]

Yeah. Yeah. I think about, like, I had a job working at a residential treatment center in between undergrad and grad school that provided so much confidence for me going forward. I already saw there was so much I didn't know, but I did know a lot. I got to practice a lot.

[Nicole McCann]

Yes, exactly.

[Alison Per]

And that. That led to just confidence going out into the job market that I wouldn't have had otherwise.

[Nicole McCann]

Yes, but. And I also think, like, dealing with their own crap. Like, I've dealt with my issues. I'm not. You know what I mean? I can sit with yours. Yeah. That's so key. We actually have that. Funny enough, we asked one of our lawyers in our program, like, are we allowed to ask in an interview, do you do therapy? So you have to say it in a certain way because you don't want them to think you're asking if they have a disability. That's not. Do you never ask that entering an interview, but you can ask, like, what do you do for your mental wellness to get a sense if they've done their own work because they'll be the best therapists.

[Alison Per]

Yeah. Amazing. And okay, so we've gone through a few. What are some other hiccups people come across.

[Nicole McCann]

I think the biggest one actually isn't even any of the steps. It's mindset as we know. Yeah. I think that it's the imposter syndrome is real. This sense that why should I be a boss? Like why would people want to work with me? So we work through that a lot and I think that just reminding therapists that we are compassionate people. All the research set out there on leadership says that the best bosses are the ones that are compassionate and listening and people stay because of this sense of belonging. So I so much of that that you're actually born. Not everyone's born to be a leader. But if you care about people and you want to actually develop them and create this culture, this like home where we can all grow together, you will excel.

[Alison Per]

Yeah. And I'm curious like what middle management looks like or what leadership looks like in your practice before you sold it. How did or were you still the boss of everything?

[Nicole McCann]

No. Goodness. So the first hire should be an admin and I actually suggest that they're part time. So we said casual hours. Eventually you'll work them up to part time. I don't suggest hiring a full time admin ever. And the reason is I lost admin and it's so. It's just so overwhelming and stressful when they're your right hand person and they have all the hours and then they leave. So after that happened, I think you should rather than full time hours, get two people who work part time. They help each other with vacations and sick days. So that's step number one. I ended up with six admin of course because we were very big. We and then we had people overseeing like psych assessments and different things. But after that you want a clinic manager that's going to be your next hire. That person will. If anybody is sick, they're overseeing the front desk. Any issues with clients that's going with them, they're really supporting it all. And you begin to. This is where I saw less clients and then stop supervising a little bit until I stopped supervising altogether. And then my next person just below me was operations. They eventually help with hiring. They oversaw like the financials, just the growth of the clinic. And then I could just work on steering the ship and working a little bit less and enjoying more.

[Alison Per]

Yeah. At what number of therapists working. Did you hire those other positions of leadership?

[Nicole McCann]

I think it depends on if they're part time or full time. In Canada, contractors are really, really big. In America, it's mostly W2 employees. And if you have a W2 employee, have them work full time. Why not like they're just committed to your clinic? So I would say it really depends. But like six to eight is when you might need like, okay, another admin. But you're going to feel it. You're going to know like, okay, we need more support here. And then you're going to bring on another one. Got it. Yeah. And the best place to start actually, if you love your admin, I wouldn't even post you. Indeed. I would ask them who they hang out with. Birds of a feather flock together and then hire their friends. I think it's perfectly fine. Hire the people they know.

[Alison Per]

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting because when you have employees that really, really care about doing a good job and there are so many people out there who really, really care about doing a good job, it makes your life a thousand times easier.

[Nicole McCann]

Yeah.

[Alison Per]

Because when they're just kind of like, oh, I'm doing, you know, I'm phoning it in. I'm doing like kind of quiet. Quitting is the way that I work.

[Nicole McCann]

Yes.

[Alison Per]

There is so much stress that then lands on your shoulder.

[Nicole McCann]

Yeah.

[Alison Per]

You do become the question answer. Because there's always going to be something that's not in your standard operating procedure manual. There's always going to be some random thing and I would so much rather have somebody who is going to look for that answer elsewhere. And like, they're resourceful, they're going to figure it out on their own. I always hire based on personality, not on experience.

[Nicole McCann]

Yes. Oh my gosh.

[Alison Per]

When it comes to administrative roles.

[Nicole McCann]

Can we talk about that for a second?

[Alison Per]

Yeah, 100%.

[Nicole McCann]

Yeah. So I have all these models. That's why it's called the McCants method. All these methods. But the second step in our six step hiring method model is personality tasks. We actually give them the big five. Do you remember the big five? So the big five, one of the five is conscientiousness, like our. Their work ethic. Because that's so important. I truly believe that you can. Experience can be gained, skills can be taught. But personality, we both know is pretty stable. Yeah.

[Alison Per]

And if you are harder working, like if you are more conscientious than the person you hire, you are going to consistently be discovered disappointed and frustrated.

[Nicole McCann]

Amen. Totally. I'm that person. I'm very conscientious, so I needed somebody. I don't want to be the smartest person in the room. I want to be so impressed in that interview that I'm like, holy cow, you're going to be the best. Do not settle. I've settled way too much. Which. Yeah, yeah.

[Alison Per]

And firing people is so painful for everyone involved. I would just love to save everybody from having to fire people.

[Nicole McCann]

Exactly.

[Alison Per]

That whole higher, slow fire, fast. I've never been able to fire fast, to be honest with you. I know I'm supposed to, but.

[Nicole McCann]

But yeah.

[Alison Per]

Yeah. And luckily I'm not in a position where I have to do that now because my team is like, rock solid of just like badass people who want to do a great job.

[Nicole McCann]

Exactly. There's. There's so much. I don't know if you feel this, like, similarities between dating and interviewing. Right. Like, you ever go on a date and you're kind of talking yourself into, well, maybe like, I'm falling in love with their potential. Maybe they'll be better like later on. If there's any red flags. If people bring this to coaching, I'm kind of like, if you need to bring it here, it's probably a no. And then they just learn themselves that, okay, you know what? That's true. It's gotta be a hell yeah. Because you deserve only that.

[Alison Per]

Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, Nicole.

[Nicole McCann]

Okay.

[Alison Per]

Where can people find you? What's your favorite way to introduce people to your work?

[Nicole McCann]

Yes. Well, two places. If you love podcasts, I have a podcast, the Business savvy therapist. And I also do live trainings and every single week. So if you want to come hang out and I can teach you specifically the masterclass, how to build a seven figure group practice.

[Alison Per]

Amazing. Thank you so much.

[Nicole McCann]

I'll give you both of those links. Yeah, yeah.

[Alison Per]

And we will put those in the show notes to make it super easy. Thank you for chatting. I feel like we never get enough time to talk.

[Nicole McCann]

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

[Alison Per]

Yeah, I'm glad to have you. Thank you so much. Thanks. If you're ready for a much easier practice, therapy notes is the way to go. Go to therapynotes.com and use promo code abundant for two months. Free. If you're listening, you probably need some support building your practice. If you're a super newbie, grab our free checklist using the link in the show notes. I'd love for you to follow, rate and review, but I really want you to share this episode with a therapist friend. Let's help all our colleagues build what they want.