Episode #674: Therapists & Money, feat. Aja Evans

Summary

Abundant Practice Podcast: Episode #674 Summary Title: Therapists & Money
Host: Allison Puryear
Guest: Aja Evans
Release Date: August 6, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode #674 of the Abundant Practice Podcast, host Allison Puryear engages in a profound conversation with financial therapist Aja Evans about the intricate relationship therapists have with money. This episode delves into the common financial challenges therapists face, the cultural and societal factors influencing their financial behaviors, and practical strategies to cultivate a healthier financial mindset. Whether you're a therapist struggling with money management or seeking to enhance your private practice's financial sustainability, this episode offers invaluable insights.

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Common Money Hang-ups Among Therapists

Allison and Aja begin by exploring the prevalent financial obstacles that many therapists encounter.

Aja Evans [02:25]:
"One thing that I see over and over with women is that they feel like they don't know enough. What is stopping them is their lack of education. I don't know enough about money investing, account 405, 123. What is this mean?"

Key Points:

• Lack of Financial Education: Many therapists, particularly women, feel inadequately informed about financial matters, hindering their ability to manage and grow their wealth.
• Money Avoidance: Emotional discomfort and past financial traumas lead some therapists to avoid dealing with money altogether, exacerbating financial instability.
• Navigating Financial Relationships: Therapists often struggle with managing money within personal relationships, whether in partnerships, marriages, or family dynamics.

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Cultural and Societal Influences on Financial Attitudes

The discussion highlights how societal norms and cultural expectations shape therapists' financial behaviors.

Allison Puryear [04:59]:
"Every single one of those three, culture is in there, society is in there."

Key Points:

• Predominantly Female Profession: With most therapists being women, societal messages about women's roles and financial capabilities significantly impact their financial attitudes.
• Changing Dynamics: As more women become primary breadwinners, there's an increased need for financial confidence and education to support their roles effectively.

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Therapists' Relationship with Money

Allison dives deeper into the unique financial challenges therapists face, stemming from their professional training and societal expectations.

Aja Evans [05:20]:
"I find therapists very nervous or uncomfortable that they feel like they need to either have an MBA and that means they cannot handle their budget, the P&L."

Key Points:

• Professional Conditioning: Therapists are often conditioned to prioritize client care over business acumen, leading to discomfort in managing the financial aspects of their practice.
• Money Narratives in Training: Phrases like "pay your dues" and "not in this for the money" instilled during graduate programs can create unhealthy money beliefs, making it difficult for therapists to set appropriate fees and boundaries with clients.

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The Importance of Financial Education for Therapists

The conversation underscores the necessity for therapists to acquire business and financial skills to sustain their practices.

Aja Evans [12:07]:
"But I don't need to do this. Do you want to be a director one day? Do you want to run a program? Do you want a private practice? You need to know this stuff."

Key Points:

• Business Acumen: Understanding profit and loss statements, budgeting, and financial planning is crucial for therapists looking to run successful private practices or assume leadership roles.
• Integrated Learning: There's a pressing need for graduate programs to incorporate comprehensive business and financial management training to better prepare therapists for the realities of running a practice.

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The Emotional Side of Money and Therapy

Allison and Aja explore the emotional complexities therapists face when dealing with money, both personally and professionally.

Aja Evans [17:24]:
"I wrote Feel Good Finance and literally dedicated the book to baby Asia because that's what I needed so much at that time for somebody to be like, okay, let's walk you through what's going on."

Allison Puryear [32:37]:
"So get honest with yourself. I promise you'll feel better afterwards just coming up with what's been holding you back and then making a new plan for it."

Key Points:

• Emotional Digging: Addressing money issues involves exploring deep-seated beliefs and emotions, much like therapeutic work with clients.
• Relief Through Confrontation: Facing financial anxieties and setting clear financial boundaries can lead to significant emotional relief and empowerment.

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“Feel Good Finance” Book Overview

Aja introduces her book, Feel Good Finance, which serves as a guide to understanding and transforming one's relationship with money.

Aja Evans [14:03]:
"I walk the reader through the historical context of money and how it has shown up in our society and how that impacts different people in specific ways."

Key Points:

• Historical and Psychological Contexts: The book examines how societal and familial influences shape individual money beliefs and behaviors.
• Practical Examples: It provides real-life scenarios and actionable steps for readers to identify and alter unhealthy financial patterns.
• Personal Dedication: Aja's personal experiences and struggles with money inspired the creation of this resource, aiming to support others in similar journeys.

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Impact of Social Media on Financial Perceptions

The duo discusses how social media distorts perceptions of others' financial statuses, leading to unrealistic comparisons and judgments.

Aja Evans [20:21]:
"We never have the full picture. We never have somebody else's full financial picture. And we will fill in those gaps very quickly without knowing."

Key Points:

• Incomplete Narratives: Social media often showcases only the positive aspects of individuals' financial lives, neglecting debts, struggles, and the behind-the-scenes efforts required to maintain appearances.
• Judgment and Assumptions: Observing others' seemingly affluent lifestyles can lead to unwarranted judgments and feelings of inadequacy, regardless of one's actual financial standing.

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Financial Modeling for Children

Allison and Aja emphasize the importance of teaching children about money to shape their future financial behaviors positively.

Allison Puryear [25:13]:
"You are making a decision that for you, in for your family, is going to impact how they see money when they are older."

Key Points:

• Early Education: Introducing children to financial concepts and healthy money habits helps them develop a balanced and informed relationship with money.
• Breaking Negative Cycles: By addressing and transforming one's own money beliefs, therapists can model positive financial behaviors for the next generation.

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Conclusion and Takeaways

The episode concludes with actionable advice and encouragement for therapists to take control of their financial lives.

Allison Puryear [31:25]:
"Take stock of what your life looks like. And what does your life cost you a year."

Aja Evans [32:37]:
"Get honest with yourself. I promise you'll feel better afterwards just coming up with what's been holding you back and then making a new plan for it."

Key Takeaways:

• Self-Assessment: Therapists should regularly evaluate their financial situation, understanding their expenses and setting clear financial goals.
• Continuous Growth: Financial education and emotional work around money are ongoing processes that require dedication and honesty.
• Resource Utilization: Books like Feel Good Finance and tools provided by platforms like Abundance Practice Building can support therapists in their financial journeys.

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Final Thoughts

Episode #674 offers a comprehensive exploration of the financial challenges therapists face and provides practical solutions to overcome them. By addressing both the emotional and educational aspects of money management, Allison Puryear and Aja Evans empower therapists to build sustainable and fulfilling private practices. For those seeking further support, resources such as abundancepracticebuilding.com and the Feel Good Finance book are highly recommended.

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Notable Quotes:

• Aja Evans [02:25]:
  "One thing that I see over and over with women is that they feel like they don't know enough. What is stopping them is their lack of education."

• Allison Puryear [04:59]:
  "Every single one of those three, culture is in there, society is in there."

• Aja Evans [05:20]:
  "Because it feels like you should almost either be a therapist or care about business and that they are not at war, they are one."

• Aja Evans [12:07]:
  "Do you want to be a director one day? Do you want to run a program? Do you want a private practice? You need to know this stuff."

• Aja Evans [14:03]:
  "I walk the reader through the historical context of money and how it has shown up in our society and how that impacts different people in specific ways."

• Allison Puryear [31:25]:
  "Take stock of what your life looks like. And what does your life cost you a year."

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Resources Mentioned:

• Feel Good Finance by Aja Evans: Available at local bookstores, libraries, Barnes & Noble, and Amazon.
• Abundance Practice Building: www.abundancepracticebuilding.com
• Therapy Notes Promotion: Use promo code abundant at therapynotes.com for two months free.

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Connect with the Host and Guest:

• Allison Puryear: Host of the Abundant Practice Podcast and founder of Abundance Practice Building.
• Aja Evans: Financial Therapist and author of Feel Good Finance.

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Thank you for tuning into this comprehensive summary of Episode #674: Therapists & Money. For more insightful discussions and resources, visit Abundance Practice Building and subscribe to the Abundant Practice Podcast.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hi, welcome to the Abundant Practice Podcast. I'm Alison from Abundance Practice Building. I have a nearly diagnosable obsession with helping therapists build sustainable, joy filled private practices, just like I've done for tens of thousands of therapists across the world. I'm excited to help you too. If you want to fill your practice with ideal clients, we have loads of free resources and paid support. Go to abundance practice building.com Links all right, onto the show. So I've talked about therapy notes on here for years. I could talk about the features and the benefits in my sleep. But there are a couple things I want you to know about therapy notes that doesn't typically make it into an ad script. First is that they actually care if you like their platform. They don't only make themselves available on the phone to troubleshoot so you don't pull your hair out when you get stuck. They also take member suggestions and implement those that there's client demand for, like Therapy Search, an included listing service that helps clients find you internal and external secure messaging clinical outcome measures to keep an eye on how your clients are progressing. A super smooth, super bill process, Real time eligibility to check on your client's insurance. In my conversations with the employees there at all levels, they all really believe in their product and they want you to love it too. Second, they are proudly independently owned. Why should you care about that? Because as soon as venture capital becomes involved, the focus shifts from making customers happy to making investors happy. Prices go way up. Innovation plateaus. Making more money with as little output as possible becomes the number one focus. With over 100,000 therapists using their platform, they've been able to stay incredibly successful and they don't have to sacrifice your experience to stay there. You can try two months [e-mail] with the coupon code Abundant. Welcome back to the Abundance Practice Podcast. I'm your host, Alison Parir and today I'm here with Asia Evans, who has been here before. We are going to be talking about money, so I'm going to just suggest every single one of you listen to this entire episode because as we were chatting before we hit record, everybody I've ever worked with, ever, except one person as a therapist has some money stuff. So we're going to get into some of that. So thanks for being here, Asia.

[A]

Thank you for having me, Allison. I'm so excited to come back and just dive into one of my favorite topics which I could quite literally talk about all day. So I'm excited to talk about it.

[B]

Awesome. Yeah, well, I'll share that. Like, as I mentioned, only one person has not had some money stuff. We, we grow up with money stuff. I think most people have money stuff. And then our grad programs do some work on us with money stuff. You work with all kinds of folks, not just therapists, but also therapists around money things. So can, can you kind of give us a broad overview of what money hang ups you see amongst most people?

[A]

Yeah, the. I'll be honest, the first thing that came to mind is like the money hang ups that come up for therapists. But I'm sure we will get there.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So, but what I will say for most people and I, I talk to a lot of women, so I will preface that majority of my clients are women. I do see other people, but majority are women. And one thing that I see over and over with women is that they feel like they don't know enough. And what is stopping them is their, what they feel like is the lack of education. I don't know enough about money Investing. What account? 405, 123. Like, what is this mean? And that really stops people and keeps them stuck or stalled out into potentially growing their wealth or just doing things that are going to benefit them in longer term. The second thing I see a lot as money avoidance. Sometimes because of the first reason, other times just because it makes them uncomfortable. They've had financially traumatic things come up in their life. They're scared, it is very anxiety inducing. So they just don't deal with their money at all and ignore it. Which is probably one of the scariest things you can do is ignore it versus facing it. Most times when people finally face it and we're doing it together because I will do it with my clients and look at their money with them, they feel so much relief. So if that's you right now feeling like you're ignoring your bank accounts, you will feel relief on the other side of this. It may not be forever, but that step is really important. And then I would say the third thing that people are really struggling with is just how to navigate relationships when it comes to money. So that could mean partnerships, marriages, families, boundaries are all mixed in together with how that kind of shows up for them on a regular basis.

[B]

Yeah. Anything about how culture plays into that too?

[A]

100%. Every single one of those three culture is in there, society is in there. 100%.

[B]

Yeah. And so we are in a like predominantly female role as therapists. Like most therapists are women. So I'm guessing all those things apply. Plus the Things that you see most in therapists. Can we talk a little bit about that?

[A]

Yeah. So I. I am an entrepreneurial therapist type of person. So I really like the business side of therapy, of working, of setting up a practice. Honestly, even when I wasn't in private practice, I liked the business side of the other aspects of being in community mental health or working for a program. So that I find makes therapists very nervous or uncomfortable that they feel like they need to either have an MBA and that means they cannot handle their. The budget, the P L. So the profit and losses. I cannot handle the money or the things because I don't even know what I'm talking about. Because it feels like you should almost either be a therapist or care about business and that they are not at war, they are one. If you are a therapist with a practice, that's your business. This is a big deal. And that brings me to the next point, which is, and this is part of my story in that a lot of times I think we've all heard it in some way, shape or form. You are in grad school, you're going into interning. There's the, you have to pay your dues. You're not in this for the money. And these are kind of like money narratives, if you will, or money beliefs that were passed down to us from, you know, our institutions, if you will. But you're not in this for the money. You have to pay your dues. Trial by fire. You are not going to make any money. You shouldn't be making money from this. You shouldn't profit from this. All of that kind of verbiage in language around almost like this piety oath we feel like we need to be taking as therapists really interrupts how we're able to build healthy boundaries with our clients around payment. It really hampers us and holds us back from saying, hey, I'm going to raise my prices or raising your prices appropriately every single year. And then having those conversations. So that's very loaded. But, you know, yeah, yeah, that's what I see a lot from therapists talking about money and what comes up for them and just feeling icky and feeling weird about, oh, gosh, I'm gonna charge this person for this no show, and they're getting charged the full rate. And other people think that's weird or I shouldn't do that or that's uncomfortable for me and how do I do that? So a lot of those conversations, yeah, absolutely.

[B]

I think about, we're in a culture where women are starting to Be like, more women are starting to be the breadwinners in their family than ever before. And so now we've got a lot of women who are making more and don't know anything about finance and are scared and are a lot less confident in their ability to learn or understand.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think about the whole girls don't like math thing that we're also kind of raised with. And then I. I think about therapists who are now business owners. And this is probably going to come out harsher than I mean it, but you can't own a business and ignore the money side. Like, you absolutely are not a business owner. You're just like a hoping it works out owner.

[A]

Yeah. Volunteer. And I don't want that for anybody.

[B]

Absolutely, Absolutely. Like, you have to really understand the money in your business in order for it to stay open, because money is the lifeblood of any business, and it will not stay open if you're not making money. I think about these messages. I distinctly remember being told, you're not going to make money in this profession while I was in grad school. And how completely false it is. And I didn't know it at the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And how we all have bills. So, like, maybe we didn't go into it for the money. I think if we went into it, if we were going into a profession for the money, we would not be therapists because we were all told we wouldn't make any money. And why do this when there are so many other things that make more that are less emotionally exhausting.

[A]

Exactly. I was like, and we're not carrying the emotional labor. Exactly. Yep.

[B]

Yeah. We're not doing it for the money. And we deserve to make money, period. There is not a single group, as a profession that I would rather have a lot of money than therapists.

[A]

100%. I love that. And I don't think people talk about it in that way. Like, what if therapists had all of the money? What if we were the richest people? I mean, that's exciting to me to think about. That is very exciting. And the possibility of what that would mean for communities and the whole world. Yes.

[B]

The whole world.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because along with being like, if we were like the best paid profession or something, there would also be absolutely no stigma in seeing a therapist.

[A]

Correct. And research.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

All types of populations and just money going into it to, you know, healthier humans do better.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

RIP research funding. But I think the. The level of sitting down with people and looking at their finances that you do, you probably have so Much better perspective than most people because you've seen many more people's finances in the way that a financial advisor might see a lot of people's finances. Things like that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, you sit down, but you also handle the emotional side with them.

[A]

Y.

[B]

And so, like, financial therapy is a thing for anybody who doesn't know Asia's a financial therapist. And I find it such a fascinating and exciting piece of our field.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because we avoid it in all the other sides of our field. Like, how often are we really getting into money with our clients?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would have felt more comfortable earlier in my career talking about sex any day of the week than money with my clients.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that shows us how loaded it is.

[A]

Yes. And how avoidant we can be in it. Like, when I think about going through grad programs, and I loved my grad program, but we need a whole course on building businesses. It needs to be baked in. And, you know, I graduated a long time ago. Maybe this has happened. And if it has, please, please reach out and let me know because I am very curious about it. But there needs to be coursework on not just running organizations or running private practices, but how are you managing grants, getting grants, funding research, making money for your private practice. You again with the P. Ls, like, taxes. I think there is something really important there around the business acumen that we all need to be running businesses around mental health that we are just totally missing when we are being educated.

[B]

And I think we hide behind. It's boring when really it's scary and confrontive.

[A]

So well said. And it's interesting because I'm like, I am so excited about them. Like, what do you mean it's boring? Why? So looking at it that way that maybe it's just scary and it's not boring or I don't want to do this. I'm not in it for the business. That's okay. But you still need to do this. Do you want to be a director one day? Do you want to run a program? Do you want a private practice? You need to know this stuff or.

[B]

Even just understanding it. I mean, I was a board member for years, and they would hand out the P. Ls at every monthly meeting. And I would look at it and my eyes would cross. Like, I was like, I don't know what I'm looking at. I feel like an idiot saying this in front of these accountants and attorneys and these other people in these professions that seem to know what they're looking at, but it seems backwards to me. Why Is there a minus when it's a plus? I just didn't understand how to read it and didn't ask for assistance and understanding because I, because of my ego, because I didn't want to look stupid.

[A]

Right. And not stupid at all. You're just like, hey, this is not my wheelhouse, but I want it to be. And I think that is also another great example because you're right, we need us in the boardrooms, we need us in those decision making at those decision making tables to say, hey, clinically, this is what's going on. But that also means that we need to understand what's happening at the business level. And I believe this more now than ever, especially with how much tech is disrupting mental health in general. We need clinical people at the table having these conversations and we need to be able to sit there and feel confident knowing about what the budgets that we're looking at and the influx of income, but also being able to say, okay, I understand how, how much money this is going to cost or not. Or this is why we believe in this longevity of this type of treatment. Because xyz. Xyz. But we need to understand the business part of it. So.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I know that you wrote a book, the Feel Good Finance. So talk about Feel Good Finance and why you wrote it. Because writing a book is a whole thing. You really have to have passion. Nobody writes a book just because they only halfway care.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's a long process. So no, you definitely don't just write a book without having passion or drive to kind of want to get your thoughts and feelings out there. But I loved it, which has been so nice to unlock another part of myself and realize like, oh, Asia, you are a writer. Everything that you have done has led up to you realizing that you're also a writer. You like money, you like mental health, and you like to write. So, like, this is what I want my professional career to look like. And you hear those three things and they sound like they don't go together, but that really has been the path. So I wrote this book because when I was in my 20s and in my mid-20s, I felt weird about money. I didn't understand it. I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know why my credit cards weren't being paid off if I was just doing the minimums. I didn't know why I didn't have enough money, what my budget was, why were my student loans so high. I just didn't understand. And in that I Felt like I wanted what. There's so much information out here now that this was not the case back then. But I wanted to tap into the emotional side. I wanted to do the digging that we do very often in therapy around money. Like, why does my self esteem feel weird when my friends are able to go on these trips, but I can't afford to go what's coming up in me and dissecting that. So I wrote Feel Good Finance and literally dedicated the book to baby Asia because that's what I needed so much at that time for somebody to be like, okay, let's walk you through what's going on. So that's what I do for the reader. I walk you through the historical context of money and how it has shown up in our society and how that impacts different people in specific ways. Then I walk through our psychological context of how we grew up, what was modeled for us, what was represented, what were those money beliefs that we kind of formulated and then held on to without realizing they're showing up in a way in our adulthood that we may not like anymore? And then I give examples of how it shows up in our everyday life and what we want to do about that. So it could be money avoidance. It could be comparing yourself or trying to keep up with the Joneses. It could be trying to just not worry about your partner managing all your money and that you don't need to worry your little heart about it. So I really walk the reader through very common situations and narratives that my clients have experienced, that I have experienced around their money and. And ask them to get really honest with yourself. Do you like this or do you want to make a change? And even if it came from something as rooted in your family experience, it might mean that, hey, this is how we grew up. And that was necessary at the time. But this doesn't apply to my life anymore. My life looks so different. So do I need to start cultivating a different message around my money beliefs?

[B]

Yeah. And it's all rooted in childhood. In my mind. There's so much that we get to sort through when we start working on our money stuff. And, you know, I've been working on money stuff. I remember being in my 20s in therapy and realizing, like, I hated rich people. I was so jealous, and I thought that they were bad and they didn't have any idea of what it was like for real people. And I had just this real bias. And I'm so glad that my therapist talked me through that and, like, worked with me on it, because it would have really held me up when I was starting my practice, because why would I make money if I'm gonna. I don't want to be an.

[A]

Right. But people wouldn't think about that connection then kind of messing up your business.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. But it absolutely would have if I hadn't done that work.

[A]

Yep. Yep.

[B]

And. And still I'm still. I mean, like, literally today I released the newsletter about buying this beautiful house in this incredible neighborhood. And I love it, and it's wonderful. And I bought that house out of pain, and I didn't realize it at the time. Bought that house out of trying to be good enough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so now we're like, well, what's. What's more us than this? And how do we get there?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's. I've done a lot of money stuff, y'. All. So much money stuff. And to have something like that bop me on the head and then have to go through the work of emotionally detaching from this thing I thought I wanted and all the physical work of getting the house ready to sell and blah, blah, blah, you know?

[A]

Right, right. I think there's this idea that you may come into this type of work with one thing. Hey, I need to fix this one thing. I need to fix my money mindset. And then I'm gonna be fine as if it will never show up again. But we all know in therapy that is just not the case. It's going to keep coming back over and over and over again and in different ways. Even though you've done so much work on it.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. So it's fascinating how our relationship with money, I think, probably also mirrors a lot of our other relationships, and especially with, like, boundaries and how we manage hard things, like, are we more avoidant or are we more like, all right, let me sit down with a nice cozy cup of tea and just, like, open my bank of America account or whatever, you know?

[A]

Yep. It.

[B]

How you do one thing's how you do everything potentially, you know?

[A]

Yes. You are taking you with you. No matter where you go, you are still gonna be right there.

[B]

Yeah. I think, too, you probably have a really good perspective on how. How much people are faking it. Like, everybody thinks everybody else is doing just fine.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Tell me something about what you've noticed pattern wise amongst therapists or other people or whatever with the faking it.

[A]

Well, listen, I am not going to make this a time where we're going to rail against social media, because I do think that there are good things and there are bad things. About social. Right. But one con, pro and con, I would say a double edged sword. We have access into somebody showing us the behind the scenes of their life. We have access to. This is what my kitchen looks like. Even though I might not be highlighting my kitchen. You're in their kitchen. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the amount of judgment that comes with what somebody finds, aesthetic or not aesthetic, when somebody's just showing you, hey, I made this really delicious brown sugar syrup for my coffee. Here's the recipe. Turns into, look at those countertops. And I see that subway tile. And oh my God, you have white appliances. I had no idea that there was a huge judgment for people with white appliances. And I was like, oh, my goodness. But I bring this up because I think when we get the behind the scenes, we can make up the stories about who these people are, how they pay for it, what's going on. And of course, all those stories are always very positive. They're making so much money. They come from money. This is. It's never, wow, they must be swimming in debt. Oh, wow. They took out two mortgages to make this happen. Oh, this is what's going on. We're not thinking about it in that way. We're either passing judgment. Assuming they have a ton of money or make a ton of money or that somebody else gave them money. It's never, wow, what if they have a hundred thousand dollars in credit card debt? What if they're two seconds away from house being foreclosed on? Like, we're not thinking about it in that way. So for me, the perspective is that we never have the full picture. We never have somebody else's full financial picture. And we will fill in those gaps very quickly without knowing. So that's what I try to keep in line for people to kind of check what's going on. You have no clue. You just have no clue. And that's okay. But let's not assume that they're in a great position when you feel like you're not, because you actually might be in a better position than they are financially.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You might not be up in the middle of the night worrying about, you know, if your real didn't do well enough.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And you're not gonna be able to pay off that credit card bill or whatever.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I love when people are like, here's my normal kitchen and my untidy living room. I'm just like, thank you. Yeah. Because, I mean, I'm very conscious when I'm filming at my own house. Like, I'M very conscious of, like, what's behind me and in a way that is not always real. You know, like, I'll admit it. Like, I'll clean up behind me in a way that it wasn't like that five seconds ago. But if I'm gonna do a reel or something, then I want to make sure it's.

[A]

It's necessary. But to your point, I really like when people kind of like, hey, this is the beautiful kitchen you're seeing, but this is where everything went to. So that I can feel in this beautiful angle of the kitchen.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And it just. We need to sometimes break that glass to remember. Oh, they are humans too. Right. Like, nobody is living in these perfectly coiffed outfits, boats. Like, I have little kids. So thinking about people in matching dresses and bows and their hair's looking great. Like, my daughter wants nothing to do with that. I would do her hair and she would roll around on the couch. But then I'm like, wow, look at this mom out here with her 3.5 kids and her clean kitchen. And everything looks great. And I do it too, knowing that I don't have the full perspective. So it's very easy friends to get caught up in it.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think about, too, like, my kids have been going to a really wealthy school.

[A]

We'll just say I liked, like, a fancy school.

[B]

Yeah, it's very fancy. They're no longer going to be going there. This was my youngest last year there. And we're pulling her. But seeing behind the curtain a little bit at how many people are just. Because how much you make seems to be very, very important to the people there. Part of why we're leaving and hearing some of the background, I'm like, oh, well, I mean, it looks like they're doing really well, but in actuality, it's like gossip.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When that's not a community, I want to be a part of people who are going to gossip. People in a hard time. Yeah, yeah. Or like, oh, so and so's mother is nearly a billionaire, so blah, blah, blah. Like, they're great donors. That kind of thing. Like, I don't want to be a part of any of that. And it's funny because I got to be a part of that. I thought that I wanted the great education for my kids, but when the culture is not what I want and not in line with our family values, then it's interesting to get to a place of having the things that I was supposed to want.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And being like, I actually don't want this. Can we downsize? Can we. You know, what's real? What. What do I actually want?

[A]

Right. And at what cost? Yeah. Like, and I think a lot of times, especially when it comes to school. Right. We love our kids so much, we want the best for them, but we don't always see how else they're getting educated on top of the academic education.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because what your kids would be getting isn't a crash course in wealth dynamics, in class dynamics, in how you treat other people and what is important. And do you like that or not? And that's a social education that they're getting. And to your point, you may be like, hey, actually, this is not where our values lie. This is not that level of importance to us. And we don't want to be educating our kids in that way, even though the academics may match up with what you're looking for. Because kids are going to school, they're learning so much more. And I talk about that in my book, too, because it's part of my story. And there's a lot of me in the book as well. But I talk about why wasn't my mom buying me the 50 jeans from Abercrombie and Fitch? And this was a while ago, Right. So Elder Millennial, why wasn't she buying me that? And the cool kids had it, and I wanted to be a cool kid, and I thought it would make me feel so good if I had these pairs of jeans. And, you know, when you're in middle school, that is the most important thing to you, and that's appropriate, and it should be. But when you are now surrounded by wealth that looks. It makes you feel different. And the dichotomy for me was that I actually was a wealthier kid in my school. I didn't realize it until writing the book and diving into my own money story, but I was like, oh, wait. I just didn't feel wealthy because of a lot of the racial expectations or assumptions about who my family was or where we lived, because my parents chose to live in the city instead of the suburbs because they're both from New York City. So they're like, oh, a brownstone. This is lovely. We're going to live here. It's great. It reminded them of home. But that weird. Trying to make sense of it when you're a child is how we then impact what we do as adults. So, yes, I want you to know, Allison, you're making a decision that for you, in. For your family, is going to impact how they see money when they are older. They were able to dip a toe into it and have the experience, but now it may shift, and that's okay, too.

[B]

Yeah. And I think in my mind, I was like, I want my kids to see what's possible for them, because I didn't necessarily have the same examples. And now I'm like, yeah, and that. That might not be what they want ultimately. Like, you know, I don't want my first grader asking me why we don't have our own plane. Like, so and so, you know.

[A]

Yeah. Not ideal, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That is not the norm. And when you amongst it all the time, it feels like it's the norm or like, they have to grow up and. And make enough money so that they do have their own plan. You could, but you don't need to.

[B]

And I think about that whole keeping up with the Joneses thing.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like, it's. It's. I don't think it's ever really intentional for most people in a way that I used to think of it as intentional, like, oh, so and so got a Mercedes, so I should get a Mercedes. Like, I think it's a lot more insidious when everyone you're surrounded by is going to Europe for at least a month in the summer. You know, then it just seems like, well, it sucks for me that I can't do that, or, we need to make this happen because this is normal. And I think that happens at every socioeconomic level. 100% there is a keeping up with the Joneses that can happen.

[A]

Yeah. And the assumptions that you make about other people. The amount of articles that I see, people are like, wow, these people who are making over six figures are living paycheck to paycheck. That's crazy. What's going on with them? And as somebody who lives outside of New York City, I live in Jersey. Our taxes are notoriously high. Mortgage rates are insane at this point. Yeah, it's, like, really wild out there. But I'm like, yeah, you make six figures. But I can say other places, I know for a fact their taxes are like $2,000 a year, $5,000 a year. Mine are, like, nearly triple or quadruple that. And that is, like, people don't look at it that way or just cost of child care or anything like that. So I think there's so much judgment around money and assumptions that we make around people who make what we deem as good money. And when you're not making good money, it's like, am I behind? I'm like, no, you might be making great Money for your area. And that's amazing. But we need to all touch some grass and understand what our enough is. And yes, people working themselves to the bone. I don't want anybody seeing 35 clients a week going crazy in terms of time management, managing themselves. Where is self care? I'm not taking vacations. That is not how we're supposed to live. That's not how we're supposed to work either. So finding the enough number hopefully can allow you to kind of rebalance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where your time is going and how you feel about it 100%.

[B]

And that's something I end up talking with people. Everybody wants to make a round number. When I'm like, how much money do you want to make? It's always like 100,000 or 150 or 200,000. Like, it's always a nice round number. My next question is always, what are you going to do with that money? Like, how are you assigning that money a job? What do you like? Why? Because I don't want somebody busting their ass to make 2000 when like they would have been way happier making 150,000.

[A]

And having an extra day off the week. They take the day. So I could not agree more with you. I want to tell you. And this is just what a numbers nerd I am. This is so funny. I can't believe I'm going to share this, but I am looking forward to having some time to myself to really add up what my expenses are for the year. Now I have multiple sheets I use like Monarch. I like all that stuff, but I want to sit and do the math of like, okay, Asia, your mortgage times 12 is this. And this is how much I am excited to just look at that number for the year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's fun for me. And it might not be fun for you guys, but I want you to know if you need to know what your enough number is, take stock of what your life looks like. And what does your life cost you a year?

[B]

Yes, Yes. I love this. That's great. Like, just very actionable advice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Feel Good finance. Where is the best place to get Feel Good Finance?

[A]

I would say your local bookstore. So it is nationally distributed, which is fantastic. If they don't have it in stock, I would just ask them. I'm all about supporting local. I'm very concerned for our smaller bookstores. They're so important to communities, so please support them. It's at libraries as well. If it's not at yours, you can also ask. But other than that, after those two things. You can go to bookshop, you can go to Barnes and Noble, and then of course, it is on Amazon. You'll get it the quickest. But we want to support small.

[B]

Yes. Love it. Awesome. Well, I'm gonna go to mine right after this and order it, so.

[A]

Yay. Yay.

[B]

Well, I really. I appreciate. I feel like I could talk to you all day, so. Yeah, thank you for taking the time to be here. And I hope that people are willing to look at their finances a little bit more than they have been just after hearing it really is a relief if you look at it.

[A]

So get honest with yourself. I promise you'll feel better afterwards just coming up with what's been holding you back and then making a new plan for it.

[B]

Awesome. Thanks so much.

[A]

You're welcome.

[B]

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