Episode #676: Harry Potter & Trauma Renegotiation, feat. Kellie Hayes

Summary

Abundant Practice Podcast: Episode #676 Summary
“Harry Potter & Trauma Renegotiation” Featuring Kellie Hayes
Release Date: August 11, 2025

In Episode #676 of the Abundant Practice Podcast, host Allison Puryear engages in a profound discussion with Kellie Hayes, a Licensed Professional Counselor (LPC) and Licensed Clinical Mental Health Counselor (LCMHC) with six years of experience in the counseling field. The episode delves into the intricate relationship between the Harry Potter series and the concept of trauma renegotiation, offering therapists innovative ways to connect with clients through popular culture.

1. Introduction to Trauma Responses: Big T vs. Little t Trauma

The conversation begins with a foundational exploration of trauma responses, distinguishing between Big T Trauma and Little t trauma:

• Big T Trauma refers to significant, often single-event traumas such as sexual assault, natural disasters, or acts of violence. Kellie explains, “[...] a one-time event or multiple big events that are severe” (05:24).

• Little t trauma, on the other hand, encompasses attachment wounds and ongoing, less overt experiences that stem from childhood, such as repeated emotional neglect or subtle forms of abuse. Kellie emphasizes, “these are really something stemming back to childhood” (06:19).

Allison complements this by highlighting the personal nature of trauma and its varied manifestations, noting that Little t trauma can be just as debilitating as Big T trauma.

2. Applying Harry Potter Characters to Trauma Responses

The core of the episode revolves around using Harry Potter characters and scenarios as metaphors for understanding and addressing trauma:

• Harry Potter’s Trauma: Kellie outlines Harry’s early and continual exposure to trauma, beginning with witnessing his parents’ murder. She states, “Harry witnessed... his parents be murdered” (08:45), categorizing this as Big T trauma. Throughout the series, Harry’s constant battles and threats exemplify ongoing trauma responses.

• Hermione Granger’s Experience: While not as explicitly detailed, Hermione’s character is explored through her perfectionism and need for control, which Kellie interprets as Little t trauma stemming from self-worth issues and attachment wounds.

• Ron Weasley’s Struggles: Ron’s feelings of inadequacy and lack of recognition from his family highlight Little t trauma, with Kellie observing, “He is just experiences a lot of little t trauma” (10:20).

3. Clinical Applications: Using Harry Potter in Therapy

Allison and Kellie discuss practical ways to incorporate Harry Potter references into therapeutic settings:

• Dementors as Trauma Responses: Kellie draws a parallel between the Dementors in Harry Potter and trauma responses, describing Dementors as “soul-sucking beings” that resonate with how trauma can drain an individual's joy and vitality (23:28). She suggests using the metaphor of casting an Expecto Patronum as a framework for practicing EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) therapy, where clients focus on a happy memory to counteract traumatic thoughts.

  Kellie Hayes [23:28]: “dementors are trauma responses... how you get rid of them is thinking of a happy memory...”

• Marauder’s Map for Containment: The Marauder’s Map serves as a metaphor for containing and managing traumatic memories. Kellie shares a case example where a client used a personalized Marauder’s Map to map out and process their traumas before EMDR sessions.

  Kellie Hayes [21:06]: “we kind of put out her traumas on there... interweaved the dementors and happy memories.”

• Character Analogies: Utilizing characters like Professor McGonagall and Severus Snape, therapists can help clients identify and reframe their perceptions of authority figures and personal trauma triggers.

4. Client Experiences and Bibliotherapy

The episode highlights bibliotherapy’s rising role in therapy, showcasing how clients relate deeply to literature:

• Transformative Reading: Kellie recounts a client who initially felt unable to read Harry Potter as an adult due to the characters' traumatic experiences. Through therapy, the client revisited the books with a new perspective, recognizing themes of resilience and post-traumatic growth.

  Kellie Hayes [45:00]: “she was able to get back into the book and see it with a different lens... I mean, that made me cry whenever we discharged and she graduated.”

• Empathy and Self-Reflection: Allison shares how her own relationship with Harry Potter evolved, using character frustrations and growth as mirrors for her personal development and therapeutic progress.

  Allison Puryear [35:51]: “I have the ideal client... striving to do everything the right way and the best I can totally over relate.”

5. Challenges and Considerations in Using Pop Culture References

The discussion also addresses potential pitfalls and the importance of nuanced application:

• Over-Reliance on Metaphors: Kellie warns against using metaphors like Harry Potter without ensuring they resonate meaningfully with the client’s experiences. She mentions a client who found Harry Potter references distressing due to personal associations with trauma.

• Author’s Background: The conversation touches on the complexities of separating an author's personal history and controversial views from their literary works, acknowledging that personal allegiances to the series may vary among clients.

6. The Importance of Healthy Relationships and Resilience

A significant theme is the portrayal of healthy friendships and resilience in Harry Potter:

• Hermione and Ron’s Loyalty: Their unwavering support for Harry exemplifies healthy, resilient relationships. Kellie highlights Hermione’s integrity and loyalty as therapeutic models for clients seeking to understand and cultivate strong, supportive friendships.

  Kellie Hayes [40:00]: “Hermione's values, friendship, loyalty, and integrity... she is someone who sticks with Harry no matter what.”

• Post-Traumatic Growth: Both Allison and Kellie discuss how characters’ journeys illustrate the concept of post-traumatic growth, where individuals not only recover from trauma but also develop greater personal strength and deeper relationships.

7. Conclusion: Leveraging Popular Culture for Therapeutic Success

The episode concludes with reflections on the benefits and future potential of integrating popular culture like Harry Potter into therapeutic practices. Both hosts advocate for bibliotherapy and creative metaphors as powerful tools for fostering empathy, understanding trauma, and promoting healing.

Allison Puryear [59:33]: “Ways to look at trauma that gives them the respect... helps us do it easier for ourselves as well.”

Key Takeaways

• Big T vs. Little t Trauma: Understanding the distinction helps tailor therapeutic approaches effectively.

• Creative Metaphors: Using familiar narratives, such as Harry Potter, can make complex trauma concepts more accessible to clients.

• Bibliotherapy: Integrating literature into therapy can enhance empathy and provide relatable frameworks for clients’ experiences.

• Healthy Relationships: Demonstrating resilience and loyalty through character analyses can guide clients in building strong support systems.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Kellie Hayes [02:15]: “You can be triggered by smells, by sound, by what you see, by what you hear. All the senses can be trauma responses.”

• Allison Puryear [05:10]: “big T trauma versus little T trauma... big T trauma is more important... little T can mess up your life just as much.”

• Kellie Hayes [23:28]: “dementors are trauma responses... how you get rid of them is thinking of a happy memory...”

• Kellie Hayes [21:06]: “we kind of put out her traumas on there... interweaved the dementors and happy memories.”

• Allison Puryear [35:51]: “I have the ideal client... striving to do everything the right way and the best I can totally over relate.”

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Time Stamps Reference

• [05:10] - Allison Puryear discusses Big T vs. Little t Trauma.
• [02:15] - Kellie Hayes defines trauma responses.
• [23:28] - Dementors as trauma responses analogy.
• [21:06] - Marauder’s Map analogy in therapy.
• [35:51] - Allison reflects on personal connection with Hermione.

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This episode provides a compelling blend of literary analysis and clinical insight, equipping therapists with creative strategies to engage clients and navigate the complexities of trauma through the beloved world of Harry Potter.

Transcript

[A]

So I started a new business to help therapists with the clinical side of practice. It's called Not Boring ces. And what you're about to hear is one of our trainings. You can listen and learn for free. And if you want to get CES afterwards, you can head to notboringce.com and join us because you're an abundance person. You can get $50 off our annual membership with coupon code Abundance. We already have all the asynchronous trainings your license allows, with more coming every month. Actually, enjoy your CES and do it on the go at notboringce.com Kelly Hayes, LPC and LCMHC, has six years in the counseling field. She's worked with teens, adults, and children in multiple settings in the course of her career. She's currently working in a group practice based in Texas and is seeing clients part time in her private practice in both Texas and North Carolina, Kelly focuses on helping her clients believe people aren't mad at them and learn to live and thrive in spite of their past. Kelly utilizes movement and desensitization EMDR in her practice. Welcome, Kelly. Welcome back to Not Boring ces. I'm here with Kelly Hayes and we are talking about Harry Potter and trauma renegotiation. And I love a good allegory. I love metaphors, and I also love Harry Potter. So I feel like this is a really great way to conceptualize trauma in a way with clients or for clients that may really help them in a million different ways. So thank you so much for coming on.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

I'm excited to talk. So where should we start?

[B]

That's a great question. Let's just start at the top.

[A]

Okay. There may be some people in here listening or watching who have only seen the Harry Potter movies once or something like that. So we want to. You don't have to be a huge devotee. You don't have to have been to Harry Potter world. Like, this is all going to make sense in the context of this one podcast. So you don't have to worry about rereading all the books or something. So let's talk about just some basic trauma stuff. Having said all that about Harry Potter, can we talk about just identifying trauma responses to begin with?

[B]

Absolutely. So. So I guess I'm going to. I'll start with. So if you've only seen the movies or if you've not. If you've only read the books or if you. I guess if you haven't done either one trauma in Harry Potter is just kind of A theme throughout the entire seven book series, eight movie series. So identifying trauma responses. And at least in my eyes, it's. You can be triggered by smells, by sound, by. By what you see, by what you hear. All the senses can be trauma responses.

[A]

Absolutely. And so I'm thinking about, like, social media therapy right now and how it's like, if you ever had an ingrown toenail, it's because of trauma. You know, like, it's very. Everything's a trauma response on there.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So how do we differentiate what we might see clinically in our offices and what our clients may be experiencing as like a. A true solid trauma response versus daily living?

[B]

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so in my. In my eyes, it's A trauma response is something. I think the best way to speak to that is something that feels like it's internal and you feel like you can't control it and it just comes out of nowhere. So, for example, if someone's traumatized by. By someone who is wearing, I don't know, let's just use Old Spice cologne or Old Spice Children or whatever for the. For the rest of, you know, your life or for the, you know, five years, six years, whatever it is, when you smell it, it's going to bring you right back to that time that you were traumatized or were seeing something or experiencing something. So that's. For me, that's a trauma response versus, oh, I don't like the way Old Spice smells. It's because my grandpa yelled at me 30 years ago or, you know, I stubbed my toe, to use a toe example again. So it's. I guess that's what different differentiates between stress and not having a good memory versus a trauma response and avoiding that memory.

[A]

Yes. So it's so personal, which is why I always have a bit of an eye roll of, like, people pleasing is a trauma response. Not only like, sometimes.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But also not always. So.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. Like, not everybody's a people pleaser because they got screamed at and it was awful the one time they tried to have a confrontation with someone. Sometimes it seems easier and you're taking the path of least resistance.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's like if you're people pleasing, you know, if you're. Gosh, that's a great point about, you know, if you're people pleasing, you know, a boss or. Versus people pleasing, you know, people pleasing. Using quotations, your partner. It's not. You don't. People please. The same way with a boss and a partner, you just. You don't.

[A]

Right. So, Right.

[B]

Not a trauma response. Always to your point.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And then, I mean, I think that also brings us to like big T versus little T trauma.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And how. Let's kind of define those as best we can and explore that a little bit.

[B]

Okay. So big T trauma, in my opinion, it's. It's a one time event or it's a one time event or multiple events happening, but they're big. Like sexual assault or gunshot or school shooting or gosh of fire, natural disaster. I mean, you, you name it. Like, just something that's like, oh my gosh, that must have been so hard for you to get through. How did you get through it? Whenever you hear, you know, people ask that question, that's an indication of a big T trauma, in my opinion. And little, Little T trauma is for me, those are attachment wounds and those are really something stemming back to childhood. Again, my opinion, it's one of those things that repeated. It's ongoing. And it's not necessarily abuse, it's not neglect, it's not anything that is on paper easy to understand why you're traumatized. Does that make sense?

[A]

Absolutely. Which I love. I like that description of it. That on paper it's not easy to see why you're traumatized because it's what so many people with little T trauma experience is, this minimization of their experience when it's very salient for them, it's very impactful on their lives. And even like big T versus little T, it sounds like big T is more important. Even just the language versus little T. When little T can mess up your life just as much, it can be just as hard to heal through as big T trauma.

[B]

Yeah, I love, I love the way you phrase that. And something else that comes to mind that I find myself saying a lot to my client is that old adage, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me. It's like, like I just want to shake the person who came up with that because I have never heard something as untrue with that.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

So that's, you know, to me, the sticks and stones, like those, that, that's big T trauma. And that's the way I explain it to my, my clients is it's a big T trauma. It's really like sticks and stones, like something you can see, like physical with versus little T. It's those words. It's like there's so many people who specialize in attachment trauma for a reason because there's so much of the little T trauma.

[A]

Mm, absolutely. Yeah. And it's the trauma that most clients also minimize themselves. Like, it's minimized by other people as well, but they minimize themselves until they start to recognize like, oh, this is. This is what's causing this pattern. Or this is. This is something I should be over with quotation marks, but I'm not.

[B]

Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's. That's a. Yeah, the quotation is for the class should be over it. And again, we all know that we shouldn't on ourselves, but we typically do. We always do. Especially if the. Well, you should be over it or, you know, I don't know why it's such a big deal. If it's coming from people who are important to you. Mom, dad, grandparents, family partner, close friends, siblings. You're going to learn to minimize your own feelings.

[A]

Absolutely. So coming back to Harry Potter, there are tons of different trauma responses amongst the characters. There's a lot of big T and little T trauma that we can, like, follow through with the characters. Did we hop into some of that?

[B]

Let's do it. Awesome. So I was just gonna say, if you're not familiar with the story, Harry Potter, like, at its very basis, it's about a little boy who was given to his aunt and uncle and because of. Because his parents were supposedly killed in a car crash. That's what he was told all growing up by these two people. I'm gonna just put a pin in that and just keep my opinions on that to myself. But to, you know, Harry, even when he was, what, a year old, he experienced one of the biggest he traumas that you could ever experience. Right. It's that he witnessed. And he may not have, you know, vivid memories of it, you know, in the first book, but he's. He watched his parents be murdered right then he was. He. He. The. The wizard Voldemort attempted to kill him. And he's the only one in living history and in the wizarding world to ever survive that kind of curse and that no one else has ever done that before. And it's because his mom sacrificed herself basically by throwing her herself in front and just saying, no, please don't take, you know, take me, don't take Harry. Just, you know, leave him be. So big T trauma, for sure. And yeah, he just experiences that throughout every single book. And it's. I was reading, when I was reading these originally when I was a teenager, it's one of those things that I was like, gosh, does he ever get a break? And I remember having that thought, like, does this Kid ever get a break? My goodness. He's almost. He's almost killed or he's hunted at least throughout every single book. So that big T trauma with Harry, we don't know as much about Hermione, but I, I would say that she's experienced big T trauma. And I'm trying to think of. In the first book, she had to. She had to witness Ron be thrown off a. The Wizarding chessboard and she had to. I would say this is a big T trauma. It could also be classified as a little T. But she had to use her brains to figure out which potion was not going to hurt her. Kill them, all of that. And I think a lot of it speaks to, you know, going back to that. Those attachment, those perfectionism and those tendencies to not feel good enough. I feel like that is a potential trauma response for her. We just, we don't know a lot about her history because she's a Muggle. Right. We don't know what happened in her world. With Ron, I would say that he's the. He experiences big T trauma or maybe, maybe even just little tea by being the sixth kid in out of seven, I believe, and not feeling good enough, not feeling seen, not feeling like his mom wants him. Comparing himself to Harry, not thinking that he's ever going to, you know, find. Find someone for him. And all along it's fuller alert, it's Hermione. So that in my opinion, those are. I think he just experiences a lot of little tea up until the seventh book. Same thing with Hermione. I think a lot of it is little tea trauma. Up until the sixth and seventh book.

[A]

Yeah. When even. Just thinking about like the wedding scene. Is that in the sixth book? Fifth or sixth?

[B]

Seventh.

[A]

Seventh. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just thinking about like the wedding scene where everybody is like. It's this moment of joy. Everybody is. They're taking a breath finally and then it's all ruined. And just thinking about that dynamic in our clients of they're afraid the other shoe is going to drop all the time. So they never fully exhale.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then sometimes when they do, shit.

[B]

Happens and it's like, well, God, am I ever going to experience anything good without something really awful happening? What did I do to deserve this kind of treatment? These events that keep happening.

[A]

Absolutely. And thinking about Jenny in second book.

[B]

Second book, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And you know, she's more of a tertiary character until, you know, she ends up with Harry essentially. But there's the sense of. In the seventh book. Yeah. You know, people, they love dying left And. Right. It's just a lot of trauma. And that's kind of how we end off the. The kind of seven book canon. Right, Right. Like everybody's died, but here's the scene at the end where they're grown up and it's all fine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I find that transition very interesting. The resolution feels for so much more for the audience, for the reader or the viewer to be able to trust that it all worked out. In all those years they processed that trauma fine. They're not still crying over their lost brother or, you know, like that kind of thing.

[B]

You're. You're right. I never really thought about that. But I. Even when I was at, what, 17 years old, 18 years old, reading at home on high school graduation night, I was reading it all. It's to my mom. And just a quick side note, my mom, you know, God bless her, she. She went out and she went out to the midnight release of it and then I stayed up and I, you know, waited on her. But that was my high school graduation gift was the Harry Potter seventh book. Like in it, it still brings me tears. Like, when I think about it, just the fact that my mom, she is not a night owl at all and she still went out and got that book for me.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Yeah, it's God bless her.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I just. Similar vein. Like, I have a Harry Potter teary thing where breastfeeding was very hard for me with both my girls. They would like, I would like, bleed through bras. It was not a good match initially until they got a little bigger and then it was fine. But with my second because we'd already had experience with my first and being so rough, my husband would just like sit up with me while I fed her in the middle of the night and read me fourth book of Harry Potter. I know it's interesting how, like, it's sweet how this weaves into our lives in these meaningful ways that really don't have anything to do with the content of the books except our appreciation of them.

[B]

Right. Yeah. I was just going to say, but to your point about the last. I remember reading it during the summer and then I got to that very last chapter and I was like, okay. And then I was like, oh, there's a prologue or an epilogue, I guess is the right word. But I was reading it and I got to the end, I was just like, well, is it okay?

[A]

Yeah, how do we know?

[B]

Like, where's the proof?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that it just. It's like your. To your point again, it's it just felt very forced. It felt like you could have ended at the last chapter and then you just leave up. You leave everything to the imagination. And I wonder how that speaks to J.K. rowling's own trauma history. What was. Was she writing that epilogue for closure? For herself to say, hey, everything is okay, everything will work out. Was that for her? Who was that for?

[A]

Right, right. And just knowing some about her history. Plenty of trauma there.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And. And she's a. She has earned a controversial reputation. Don't agree with her terfness. Wish that it was not associated with her books in any way. But you know, we can't divorce the author from the books fully. Even though I desperately want to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And still love the books, even though I strongly disagree with her.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I'm thinking too about the professors and their big T and little T. They saw so much violence. They saw, you know, they were teaching and responsible for a school full of children throughout different phases of absolute threat.

[B]

You're right. And it all starts. All started with. I mean, not all, but I would say 99.9% of the issues or problems came when Harry was it at Hogwarts, you know, for obvious reasons. But I also wonder what if. What happens if Severus Snape would have just let like, you know, divorced Harry Potter from James. Like, I wonder how much things would have changed or I wonder how much things would have been easier for Harry because he would have had a safe adult in his life finally for the first time.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. Because I mean he had Dumbledore, but I don't know about safe adult and Dumbledore. When I look at it as a, like grown up. I think when I was younger I saw him as safe.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

And younger being like in my 20s when I read it. But like as a. As a real grown adult at this point, not in my early 20s. And as a parent, I think I'm like Dumbledore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Rereading these books, I'm just like, what? I'm sorry, what's going on?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So there's also a good bit of, you know, some of that could also be coming from Dumbledore's trauma. His own life experiences, his need to hold his, his cards close to his chest. In many ways I think fair warning for a child is probably a good idea instead of still having him figure stuff out himself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When his life is in. In danger.

[B]

Yes. From the moment he was born.

[A]

Right. Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

I think, I think of, you know, Professor McGonagall too. Right. What was her. Because we don't know much about her at all. And it's. It's interesting to. To really, now that I'm thinking about it, it's interesting to see how. Or to think about how a lot of the female characters, we don't have a lot of history of just Jimmy. Mm. So. And I just. I wonder if J.K. rowling meant to do that or if it was something that she didn't mean to do or if it's something that just happened. But I just. I just kind of wonder why is there no. Or little to no history of these female characters?

[A]

Mm. Yeah. That's interesting. And I think, like, they can. They seem on the surface more one dimensional. Right. Like, for. For much of the series, McGonagall feels like just the stern one with very, like a few little moments of. You get this glimpse into her humanity and her. She's excited about Quidditch, so she's gonna, like, snag Harry out of class and things like that. Mrs. Weasley is just a sweet mom, you know, like, she's that stereotype.

[B]

That's her role.

[A]

Yeah. There's. There's a good bit of one dimensionality that happens as well that. I mean, we can't flesh out every single character. I'm not a writer, but it seems like that would be a lot. And the books are. There are plenty of them, and they're long enough that we might not need to dive so deep into each of these characters when the attention is really on the primary characters.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I'm thinking about how with clients, it could be a good example of, you know, we don't know what's going on with McGonagall. Right. We don't know what's going on with your boss. She is really stern. And every now and then you see this glimpse of humanity, but that doesn't mean she's like your mother.

[B]

Right. And how do we. How do we change how you respond to your boss? Because she isn't your mom or she is. They. He's not your dad. Right. She may remind you of them, or he may remind you of that childhood, you know, trauma. And it's not them. It's like your system is just trying to keep you safe.

[A]

Absolutely. So how do you. In session, if you're with somebody who really loves the Harry Potter series and knows it well, how do you weave some of this. Of what we've talked about into sessions in a way that has them experiencing their life differently?

[B]

That's a great question. I'm thinking back to a client I had, gosh, three, two years ago. Three years ago. It doesn't, I guess it doesn't matter the time frame, but I remember she loved Harry Potter just like I did. She was an avid fan, reading the books. And we came up with. And you're familiar with Harry Potter with the, the Marauders map. And we kind of had a different take on it. Instead of just like putting random people on there, we actually made it an actual map and we put out her traumas on there. So we were getting ready for emdr and so we put the time frames on there and we put all of that. And then she, she was really artistic as well. So she folded it up and then whenever it was time for session, she would open it and then we would come up with. So we would, I would interweave the, you know, how do you, how do you banish, you know, dementors? And I would do the eye movement and I would throw in there, you know, what's something that you would like to say? What's, what's a happy memory that you can think of during this time? So that's how that, interwove that. And then for, again, for emdr, she used this bag akin to Hermione's expanding bag. And so she was like, yeah, things are going to stay in there. They're going to be comfortable and they're going to be big enough because it expands. It's never going to be too much for that. And it was, it was really cool for her to see or it was really cool for her to see. And then for me to see like light bulbs go off, like, oh, if I'm having a tough time, I can just put this memory, this feeling, the sensation in here until I'm ready to process it.

[A]

I love that. For containment. I never would have thought of like a Marauder's Map. That's so smart because it is like inherently folded up and put away into a safe spot where it won't get lost or stolen.

[B]

Huh? Yep.

[A]

Yeah. And like you and you mentioned dementors, which, for people who don't remember what dementors are and how to get them to go away, how to basically dissolve them. How do you describe that?

[B]

So dementors are. Dementors, however you want to pronounce it. It's. They are soul sucking beings that guard the prison in Harry Potter wizarding World, which, you know, I don't love the idea of people who are things that are soul sucking, guarding other people, but that's neither here nor there, but it's. They're soul sucking beings. And then all of a sudden they are being asked to guard Hogwarts in the third book. And that's how they come into play in the third book into the. That's how we get to know them. They're. They have no, no feelings other than they feed off the happiness of. Or, excuse me, off the sadness and despair of. And how you get rid of them is thinking of a happy memory and something so strong that it just takes things away. So I, the way I phrase it to clients who love Harry Potter is the dementor is a trauma response. Right. And then if we use mindfulness to banish it, then it doesn't make the memory go away, doesn't make it, you know, doesn't make it any less traumatic for you. It just makes it easier to deal with.

[A]

And I love it for people who read the book or saw the movies. Like they look kind of like Halloween ghouls a little bit like, yeah, you kind of float around. And I love the idea of personifying the trauma response to help make it less like less about me freaking out, you know, and it being a me, like it's all my fault versus it's like this is a thing that happens and here's what it looks like and it is this thing sucking the joy out of your life right now versus it's so common for our folks with trauma to just self blame so much. And I find that personifying helps pull it outside of them.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I love that idea of dementors and.

[B]

I love.

[A]

Thinking about the, the way that you banish them is to think of a happy, happy experience, memory thought. How do you balance that with the clients who would rather just think all the happy thoughts, not process the trauma itself.

[B]

Will you repeat that? I'm sorry.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

So.

[A]

Well, I'll give an example. Like I am, I am a person who as a client will use CBT for evil. Like I will use it to just not feel okay. So I have to be really careful with a lot like making space for my feelings. So I can imagine if I was like, okay, this is a trauma response. And if I think about these experiences, I don't experience my trauma response or my trauma really. So I'm only going to think about these positive experiences and try to bypass the work that gets me through and gives me really like really renegotiate the trauma essentially.

[B]

Okay, got it. So that's a great question. So I, I have my own thoughts about cbt and I think it's great for certain things, for trauma, maybe not so much. And so whenever a client is wanting to use CBT for trauma and comes in to say, hey, I just want to learn how to stop, stop. I want to learn how to do this. I, I say to them like, hey, we can do that. And how has that worked for you in the past? And then I explain what EMDR is and I use, I use the, I use the, the spell the Expecto Patronum as an example. Like, hey, this is what EMDR can do. It doesn't, it doesn't mean that we are going to forget about this memory because it doesn't a, it doesn't define you and it doesn't, doesn't have to run your life. You're still going to have power over this memory. And even if this memory pops up, the way that we can think, think our way and feel our way out of it is by having this one happy, really strong memory. And it just makes room for you to enjoy the future memories that you'll have with your partner, with your kids, with your family. Much easier to be in the moment and not worried about those dementors popping up again. Does that answer your question?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Totally answers my question. I'm just thinking, I'm just thinking about the permission giving that happens inherently in that conversation. That it's, it's not just like, let's think a happy thought. It's like, let's, let's make this better by working through it and working through it. You won't have to cast this patronus so often.

[B]

Yeah. And it's the way, the reason I like using Harry Potter interweaves and interventions with EMDR is because inherently, if we're looking at, you know, we have trauma responses as dementors, we have the Expecto Patronum as the actual like EMDR itself. But then we have the happy memory to summer in the Patronus. And the happy memory is part of the, the preparation stage just for using that. The EMDR language is for the preparation of, you know, we have the secure space. So that's the, her example I used earlier with the expanding bag. And then the secure space, that can be what you use to. Or the secure space is a happy memory that's so strong with all five senses that that's what you're using to cast this patron. It's enabled, enable to protect you from things coming in, but also things going out and how you respond to things.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

So can I geek out for a second?

[A]

Yes, please.

[B]

So if we're using that, those examples, right? So if we, if you are familiar with the books, and even if you're not. So in the third book and in the third movie, Harry and, and Hermione go back in time for, you know, to rescue Sirius and to rescue Harry from those dementors and those trauma responses. And the only reason that Harry is able to go back in time is because he watched himself do it before. And so that's what I love, using EMDR and Harry Potter interviews because it's like, oh, here are some concrete examples. You've already done this before and what worked for you in the past isn't going to work for you in the future. It's not working for you now. Let's look at some different ways. And so Harry had faith in himself to rescue not only himself from getting his soul sucked out by the Dementor, he also helped rescue Sirius. So just have faith in yourself and knowing that you've done it before and that you can do it again and that can make all the difference.

[A]

Right. And there was a moment there where he didn't realize he was the one who did it. And he kept waiting for someone to save him basically until he realized he was the only one there to save himself.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Also a powerful message. Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking about the, the small T traumas of Harry growing up with his aunt and uncle as well, and how nobody reads that and it's like, no, not so bad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So there's also space to help people give the gravity to the smaller T traumas by using him as an example and some of his experience.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Because there's a lot of small T trauma throughout those books and like a assumed small T trauma before they even begin. Right. Like, if they're this awful to Harry now at 11, how awful have they been the past 10 years? So.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, you know, now that we're kind of talking about it, like, you're right. We don't know what the small T. All this stuff, like he was dropped off as a one and a half year old or a one year old. Right. He's dropped off on his aunt's doorstep and she already had this really gross feeling about him. And so does her husband. Like, what, what did he experience as a baby? You know, what did he experience as a 2 year old? When. Because we all know how 2 year olds, 3 year olds, 4 year olds test patients. So it's. I wonder. What, what? Like, did he experience a lot of big trauma during that Age and we just don't know about it. You know it. What do we know?

[A]

And some of his aunt's small t trauma in comparison with like her sister and how she ended up really hating her sister because she never felt special like her sister. Yeah. An awful Dudley.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is not written as a very sympathetic character.

[B]

No, he's not until you get to the last book. And it's not maybe sympathetic but it's like. Yeah. How much of, how much of Dudley's environment and how much of Dudley's parents influence did they have on him for hating his cousin who was same age. Just I wonder how much Dudley would have been able to, I don't know, understand and be there and offer compassion for Harry had he known his actual history and had not been so full rotten by his parents.

[A]

And I feel like there are so many like what our parents teach us analogies here. Right. Somebody coming in and being like. I realize like I'm really prejudiced against this particular group. This is how my parents were. Or, or just the way they think about certain people in their family based on, I mean same kind of situation based on what they were taught about them growing up that they may are renegotiating their experience of. Yeah. It's an interesting thing how there are so many things that we all experience within these books that are about things none of us experience.

[B]

Right, exactly.

[A]

There's. There's no wizarding world unfortunately that we are aware of. And yet like the, the very human experience is so relatable in so many different ways, you know.

[B]

And I wonder too, with, with adults reading the books for the first time, I wonder, I wonder what their experience is like. And I also wonder what characters they really see themselves in. Like. Well, you know, do they see themselves in Severus and understand Severus's response and like there's no excuse for any sort of teacher abusing their power over a child whatsoever. But I, I wonder who, who would you, you know, side with for lack of a better term or understand more as an adult versus a kid. Who would you villainize in those books as. Because it's different for me as an adult than it is for me as a kid.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting like my patience for the kids, had I read it when I was their age, I might be less patient with some of them versus as an adult and seeing how like little experience with anything children have. There's much more. I'm much more generous with them than I might have been when if it had come out When I was younger.

[B]

Yeah. You know, I, when I was. So the first book came out when I was in fifth grade, so 11. So. Right, perfect. So the first book came out and I, I found myself being so annoyed with Hermione throughout the entire book. It did not matter whatsoever that she saved their lives and that she was she, that she helped out in so many different ways. And it's just as an adult or even as a teenager when I reread the first book, I was like, Hermione, like I, I am so sorry that I was kind of mean to you in the first book. You just wanted to prove herself. She just wants to. There's obviously a lot of perfectionism there. And also she just wants to be connected in love. And I wonder how many of our clients feel a lack of connection and feel a lack of love from family of origin, but also like how much do they have to prove to prove themselves to other people to be good enough?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like she had to earn her spot at Hogwarts. She's already got it.

[A]

And I'm wondering not to therapize, but I'm wondering if like that annoyed you so much at that age because that was a part of yourself you really didn't like.

[B]

Oh, a thousand percent. I am my ideal client.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I think about the Internet had something a while ago that was kind of like what three characters from books, TV or movies are you most like? And Hermione was one of mine. And I, I don't think I have the know it all quality that she has that can make her annoying, but that striving to do everything the right way and the best I can totally over relate to and you know, mix in a little Leslie Knope from Parks and Rec and it's, it starts to become very much like me. But seeing it as an adult who can acknowledge my flaws and acknowledge my strengths in a way I couldn't say as a kid. Like even just this morning I was Talking to my 7 year old and she's like, I don't want any feedback. And I was like, okay, that's fine. Like feedback is how we get better and we want to get better at this thing. Are you sure it's, it's, it's worth it to not ask this person for feedback? She's like, it makes me feel bad about myself, like I'm not good enough. And I was like, oh baby.

[B]

So times you just want to take that out.

[A]

I know, I know. There's no taking it out, unfortunately.

[B]

No.

[A]

And there's also no getting where she wants to go without feedback. So it's this.

[B]

That's right, we'll sort it out.

[A]

But just thinking about reading it as a child and being annoyed by certain characters. I was also as an, as a young adult, annoyed by Ron and how I could see now looking back, like, there's that part of me that's afraid of being too much and annoying and like I found him to be too much and annoying sometimes and how, like, it just revealed some things about me that I can, you know, they can run with. So.

[B]

Yep. And as a, as a kiddo. Not as a kiddo, but as a 15, 14, 15, 16 year old reading the fifth one where Harry's like, you start to show some real PTSD symptoms. And I know that now as a, as a therapist, as someone who has clinical knowledge of it, but at 14, 15, I'm just like, why are you yelling? I don't understand why you're yelling at these people who love you, who accept you. And it like, goes back to, like, me not feeling accepted and good enough and wanted by my friends. It's like, don't push them away.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So, but then to that, to that point, he's experiencing so many trauma responses during that fifth book, right. He's having to fight off, having to fight off Snape with the oculomancy and he's, you know, he's reliving those, watching Cedric killed. Like, he's, he's experienced so much trauma already by 15, he's having those responses and he, and it even describes in the book, he feels like he can't control himself and he feel like he can't, he feels like he can't control the yelling. And I think I loved Hermione for standing up to him in that book and just saying, there's no need to talk to me like that. There's no need for you to yell at me. There's no need for you to treat it this way. We're on your side and to, you know, relate it back to clients. It just makes sense. It's so good for people to say, hey, it's not okay for you to talk to me like that. Yes, I know you're hurting. Yes, I know that you're experiencing maybe this trauma response. And that's not okay that you're treating me the way that, that you're treating me now.

[A]

Yeah. So important for people who are, who have loved ones who are working through trauma and also so important for the people with trauma to see this is this is one way love can look.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It can be calling you out on this behavior because they love you. And this is not how they deserve to be treated.

[B]

And it's that as long as you know, they're offering support Ron and Hermione there with. With Harry literally the entire way, except for that brief little stint in the seventh book. But it's. What I love about Hermione's character is that she sticks with Harry no matter what. So it for me as a. As an adult reading these books, like Hermione's values, friendship, loyalty and integrity, she's someone of her word. And she does not back out, as you're talking about in your newsletter. She's not someone who backs out at all. She said, I'm giving you my word. We said that we would do this with you. Doesn't matter how hard it gets. I'm with you. And I think that their friendship is one of the best things that I've ever read about. But that's just me.

[A]

Yeah. I think about how having examples in media of what healthy friendship looks like, that it's not always easy. Like even Ron leaving and coming back. That there can be breaks and they're not forever.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And that. Yeah. That having those like, ride or dies, basically, the people that really will stick with you really will. Even when it gets really messy. And that you will stick with them and that you'll talk about it instead of just shoving down the resentment of having chosen to ride.

[B]

So, yeah, that's. And I. That's a great point. And I also think that it's great, you know, Ron left because he couldn't take it. I'll take that back. It's not that he couldn't take it. It's just that it got really hard and you had expectations of Harry that were not met. So that's what he's angry about. The expectations were not met. But for. For Ron to come back says so much about his trust in his love of Hermione and Harry. Right. It's like, okay, well, I'm willing to be vulnerable if you guys will have me back. Like, they could have said no. They could have, you know, said, no, we're doing fine without you. And even if, you know, even if they didn't welcome them back, I wonder what Ron would have done. But we don't have to worry about it. We don't have to think about that because they welcome them back.

[A]

Absolutely. A lot of, like, grace for one another around not being your best.

[B]

I'm just saying show up show up how you want to show up. We will be here for each other. And I. I think that it's not really shown in the movies, but in the books. There's so many examples of so many ruptures, but also so many repairs.

[A]

God, how helpful that is, especially for our perfectionistic clients. We feel like in order to earn the love of their friends, they have to do it right all the time, which keeps them people pleasing because then they're not gonna. They're not gonna bring up the thing that hurts because then it risks ruining everything. So.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And that just building resentment and sometimes self reproach and.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's so good to have examples of this because we don't see it. No, people don't see this happening in the friendships outside of their own. They may hear the drama of it. I'm thinking particularly of, like, teenage and young adults. They may hear the drama of, like, so and so and so and so aren't friends anymore, and then all of a sudden they're friends again, but they don't see how that happened.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And to have books or movies or just media of any kind giving examples of a healthy way to do that and sometimes an unhealthy way to do it in the repair that follows, I think that's really important.

[B]

And you know, to your point, I wonder, there's no. Well, so if you. If we talk about Percy, right. We know that Percy is like that perfectionist, that he's always wanting to do something, always achieve the next goal, always wanting to achieve, like, level of power. And then whenever he leaves and leaves the house and everything, he's always welcomed back by his mom. He's always welcomed back by maybe siblings give them a hard time, but they respect their mom enough to say, hey. And they love their mom enough to say, hey, yeah, I guess come back, we're gonna give you a hard time. And it makes mom happy.

[A]

Right. And like, even though you made this choice to work for the Ministry of Magic, like, even though you made this choice that is against our values at this time. We love you and you have a place here with us and we hope you change your mind.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's not a lot of that going on in the world right now, I don't think.

[B]

No.

[A]

Of like, our values clash. And so. But I'm still going to accept you. Are there ways in which bringing Harry Potter into session has surprised you?

[B]

Think about that for a second. You know, actually, yes. So I'm thinking back when I lived in North Carolina, there was someone who I did not know was a Harry Potter fan, but I knew that they were a voracious reader. And then they mentioned Harry Potter, and I was like, okay, awesome. And I thought I was like, mentally, like, all right, let's go. But it's. She did not go where I thought she would. She said that she. We're doing the Secure Space. We were doing, like, all of that work for the emdr. But she said, you know, I can't even imagine reading these books now as comfort, because that's what she used to do, like me. But she said, I can't even imagine reading these books and thinking of these characters and knowing how much trauma they experience and knowing how much, you know, that I enjoyed reading them. And I just kind of glossed over. It makes me feel bad for them, and that makes me feel guilty and. Etc. And I was like, oh, well. So that surprised the heck out of me. She. She said, I can't even read these books anymore because of all of the abuse that goes on, because of all the neglect that goes on with kids. Like, I can't read this. Okay, well, I'm gonna, like, backtrack on some of my. My Harry Potter references, but we're gonna go with it, huh? But it's. It's so funny because when I asked her, like, who does she relate to the most, you know, she said, Hermione and issues of it. Hermione experienced trauma in her own way. But, you know, at the. After we did the Touchstone Memory and not feeling good enough and all that stuff, she said that she was able to get back into the book and see it with a different light of like, hey, these kids, yes, they've experienced trauma. Yes, they've done. You know, they've been through horrific things, and they still have each other. They still have that connection. And so that from her going from not being able to read them as an adult to rereading them with this new lens, that was. I mean, that, like, it made me cry whenever we discharged and she graduated.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's working through trauma and getting to that space of, like, the resiliency. Right. It's such a perfect example of that. Like, an external example of that.

[B]

And it's. She. And at the very end of it and all of that, it was just. I. You know, I'm familiar with the term post traumatic growth, but it's. Whenever I would. Whenever we had worked through everything and worked through as much as we could, rather, she. She just surprised the heck out of me with all of the Growth that she did experience. Right. She and I again, I'll go to the rooftop screaming about EMDR diminishing, you know, banishing the mentors, having these skills, having these tools because yeah, I'm not someone you, you come to see for like just coping skills, just strategies. I hope I'm going to, we're going to start from the very, very bottom and work our way up. So it's, that's, that's how you experience post traumatic growth, in my opinion.

[A]

Have there been, has there been anything that. How do you see the series differently that a client has said or a character?

[B]

Yeah, I'm thinking, you know, I don't know. I think just some of the clients that I've seen who were maybe, maybe not differently, just in a. Maybe, maybe in a different, different understanding. I had a teenage client who is a teenager now. So they read the entire series and read the entire series not having to wait, which is great. But they just went through it. But they what? They said something about. Gosh, they said something about Dumbledore and it. They, they said that from the first book they didn't trust him. And I was like, oh, interesting. And you know, asked him why and it completely related to like, okay, well, they don't trust authority figures because the authority figures didn't protect them from, you know, this abuse that they're experiencing at home. They told people and nobody came for him. Nobody helped them. So it's like, oh, interesting. You were the first person ever who did not trust Dumbledore.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Gave me, gave me pause. I was like, oh, I know that when I was a little girl, reasonable, like, yeah, Dumbledore is great. He's gonna rescue him. He's gonna do all these, you know, all, you know, awesome things. And then by the third book, you know, as a 13 year old of me, cynical and all that stuff, I was like, he's gonna be a bad guy in the end. He wasn't a bad guy. You just. Man, there's a whole side of him that we only got to see way later.

[A]

Yeah. It's interesting how especially kids with trauma pick up on things that adults don't.

[B]

Yep. And I just, I wonder how she, how she knew. How did, how did you, how did you know that? From the get go. And she never said why she didn't trust him or she didn't say what was giving her these feelings and everything aside from these people not rescuing Harry and rescuing all these things. Like, yeah, it. She said, how can adult Knowing how they're. How this kid is going to be treated or suspected. They're going to be treated. How do you drop this baby off knowing 11 years is going to go by so slow and he has no, no other knowledge other than green flashes and feeling on edge? And I never thought about it that way. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I think about those moments when power kind of erupted from him blowing up his other ant into a balloon or that kind of thing. And how that also is a trauma response. Right. Like there are ways in which we end up reacting that, like we didn't mean to, but not totally sorry it happened. And also, absolutely it can get us into trouble. And how that kind of, or, or relating it to impulsivity for folks with adhd, like there are so many different ways to use that information also that you don't blame Harry for it. You're kind of glad. But you also know.

[B]

Yeah, oops, right.

[A]

There's going to be a consequence for that that none of us want.

[B]

You know, it's. I wonder. And I read this somewhere and it made me, made me think, to your point, you know, he's. Spoiler alert. He's obviously the seventh Horcrux, right. There's a part of Voldemort living in him. So I wonder if that's why people treated him poorly. If that's. And that's what I was reading. It's like, you know, he's got this part who is. I mean, he's part of Voldemort. Like without him dying, he's. Voldemort can't die. So it. I wonder how much of the responses that his aunt, his uncle, you know, Snape, and obviously Snape is different, but I wonder how much of him, that Horcrux living within him. I wonder how much that impacts, you know, how people treat him. Because it's not fun. Right? Because if we remember from the seventh book, even wearing that necklace impacted Ron, impacted Hermione, didn't really necessarily impact him because he felt that way his entire life.

[A]

Right. Is there any, like, particular character that feels like it comes up more in therapy than just the common conversations around Harry Potter? Like, are there people that stick out to your clients when they're processing?

[B]

I mean, just the, like the usual. I've had people use McGonagall as a safe figure. I don't, I don't think so. I mean, another. Other than just like the normal Carrie, Hermione, Ron McGonagall. I've had Jenny come up quite a bit, so. And that, that surprise. I mean, surprising if you've if you've only seen the movies, but if you've read the book. Yeah, I want Jenny on my team.

[A]

Huh.

[B]

So it. Jenny comes up, which is great, but she's. She's someone who I'm surprised that clients continue to bring up if they've only. If they. If they've only read the book. It's still surprising to me because she's not like a main character, but when she's in the book, she gives a pretty clear definition of, like, what a strong, confident young lady and woman looks like.

[A]

Absolutely. What I'm. I'm wondering, too, about relating to somebody who is not a main character also feels safer in a lot of ways because the main characters have even more responsibility. Even though, like, Jenny kicks all sorts of ass. Like, there's an amount of responsibility and pressure that is inherent with being a main character in anything. And how. That's maybe not something clients want to take on right now.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Like, while they're also working on themselves.

[B]

They don't want that main character energy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Got it. Yeah.

[A]

Right now I'm just. Just working on me. Yeah. Is there anything that has made. That has changed the way you view the books as a whole that your clients have brought to you or said and just sparked something in your head?

[B]

I don't. I don't think so. Just because I've got a. And I. This may not be. I don't know. This may not be the best way to put this, but I. I use. I use the series to get through a really, really tough time in my early 20s and in a relationship and all of that. I was just in a dark place, and so I. I have a pretty, like, characters. My opinions have changed for sure, but the series as a whole, I'm just like, you know, it just. It brings me such a sense of relief and comfort and of course, it's escapism and all of that, but it. Yeah. My opinion of the series hasn't changed. Like, characters, like I said. Sure. Series as a whole. Not really. Mm. Got it.

[A]

Yeah. It's. I love when, like, we have a comfort book series or show or something like that that our clients share. It's hard for me to not just, like, get into, like, oh. About it because it's not, you know, it's not therapeutic necessarily, but to be able to pull on that clinically, I think is such a good way to connect, especially, like, when you're both very into it and you can have conversations with one another that, like, the average, like, person who saw the movies Maybe a few years ago. Might not be able to have. Yeah. It's interesting how it. It can be a point to bolster rapport as well as a way to get pretty deep clinically on some things.

[B]

I agree. Yeah. And you know what you were saying about the seeing the movies versus reading the books? It's. I like to. If someone has just seen the movies, you know, they're not. They're not going to maybe get certain references. And so that whenever they do read the books. Yeah. It's one of those things that. That's a way to again, go back to not judge a book by its color. Right. Like your boss may be reminding you of someone. Is that his or her fault? And if it's not his or her fault, if they're not treating you poorly, is it because you're responding to something that you have note that you've experienced from your past? And if they are yelling, if they are, you know, treating you poorly, what's going on with them? What's going on in their life? What have they experienced to make them act that way to treat a subordinate or an employee? Not. Not. Well, not saying that you have to tolerate it. And are you able to practice a little grace for yourself and for them?

[A]

Absolutely. I think about other series. I had a client tell me it was. It was. I think all of the Hunger Games books were out, but I think the second movie had just come out.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And they said, like, I just, I feel like I'm in the Hunger Games every day. Like really significant trauma. Right. And just them saying that to me helped me feel and know how all encompassing it was at a level that I hadn't before. I didn't realize how bad it was all day, you know. So it was really, really helpful for me as a clinician to hear that, to be able to allow the gravity in the room, basically. I think about my daughter's reading all the Percy Jackson books right now, which I love because it's like my kids are really into mythology. And so here's a book series based loosely on some of the things in mythology, plus a modern character. And just seeing how like Percy has ADHD and dyslexia, much like other kids who, spoiler alert, are demigods. And it just putting a spin on these diagnoses. My daughter has that. It's like, yeah, because you're special. That's why you have it. Just really. I love her having this example and she will talk to me about the deeper parts about the, about the book and, and the feelings that characters are having. And she'll also be like, oh, I guess you know that too. But there's an. An interesting way that she seems to be process processing as she's reading these books. So, yeah, they're just, I think, like, bibliotherapy is on the rise, which I love.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I just think there are some real opportunities for empathy for ourselves and others through characters.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And ways to look at trauma that gives them. That gives trauma the respect, for lack of a better word, that it deserves in the role that it's played in our lives. When we can do it easily for character, it helps us do it easier for ourselves as well.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. You know, just because this happened, like, how did this. How did your behavior and how did those responses in the past, how did they help you? Right. We're not. Not going to get into parked work or anything, but it's one of those things that, again, it no longer serves you. It helped you survive. It helped, like that compartmentalization, that dissociation, like all of those things, man, oh man, they helped get you out of an awful situation, much like Harry helped him survive. And then if we look at it like, okay, well, shutting down, not saying anything back, like, that's not really helpful for you now. And, you know, always thinking people are mad at you and making yourself small, that's not helpful for you right now anymore. In the past, 100,000%, how do we change how you respond to that, that trigger now?

[A]

I love it. Thank you so much for talking with us about this. I feel like it's such an interesting way to think about trauma and to help relate some things to clients that might not relate as easily in other ways because it's just so clinical. So, yeah, I really appreciate it, Kelly.

[B]

Yeah, you're welcome. This was awesome. Thank you for having me.

[A]

Absolutely. I hope you enjoyed this not boring training. Grab your CES for [e-mail] and use coupon code ABUNDANCE for $50.