B (3:29)

Yeah. And is it the I don't want to, you know, leave people out resistance? Is it that one?

A (3:35)

I think, like, maybe it's. I don't want to be bored either in sessions or in my marketing.

B (3:44)

Mm. Makes sense. I don't want you to be either. Don't worry.

A (3:50)

And it might. Yeah, I think that's probably the biggest.

B (3:53)

Okay.

A (3:54)

Yeah.

B (3:55)

So then. So we know perfectionists is, like, the overarching thing, but if we can add in some demographics, some personality potentially, like, why are they coming into therapy now? They've probably been perfectionists for a very long time. What's going on in their life that's making it necessary to seek care? Then we can probably narrow it in a way that is people you love to work with and not in a boring way.

A (4:22)

Yeah. The first thing that comes to mind is, like, moral perfectionist. People who are worried that they're not doing enough or they're not good enough at, like, be. Like they're not good enough in the sense of, like, ethical enough. They're not.

B (4:35)

Right. Like, they're not good enough people. That kind of a thing.

A (4:38)

Yes. Not kind enough, not generous enough, but at the same time, kind of resentful of their obligations and that whole thing.

B (4:46)

So what makes them come in? Why now?

A (4:50)

Probably the political climate. Okay.

B (4:54)

Yeah. There's a lot of opportunity to be, like, a really good person. Whether or not it makes a huge difference, I don't know. I would like to think so, but there's a lot of opportunity right now to be on the right side of history, and it's an endless amount of opportunity.

A (5:12)

Yeah. And that's so suffocating. It gets, um. It's so much that it becomes impossible. It feels like there's no place to start.

B (5:22)

Yeah. Yeah. And then there's the guilt of, why am I watching a show on Netflix when I should be doing something, dating somebody or do.

A (5:29)

Yes.

B (5:30)

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we've got that. We've got the political climate. We've got. And how would they phrase it? Like, they're not going to say, like, moral perfectionism.

A (5:41)

Yeah.

B (5:42)

How are they going to think about that? First phone Call or email.

A (5:48)

Yeah. It. Does this even work? Okay. I think, like, a lot of people would recognize themselves in this. I don't know if they would see it as rising to the level of needing therapy, but we'll go with it for now. They feel stuck between wanting to do more and, you know, not. Not knowing where to put that energy. Like, where to. Like, where to even get started with anything. They. And feel guilty, I guess, like just like guilty and overwhelmed probably.

B (6:19)

And there's probably, like, clinically, like it's some underlying anxiety. Something.

A (6:24)

Yes. And depression. The. The. The not, you know, defective. There's something wrong with me that I'm uniquely not good enough. And comparing themselves to, you know, an activist or an organizer or somebody who's visibly doing enough to them, like, to prove to their. By their metrics.

B (6:47)

Right. Okay. And so you'd said something about there are a lot of people who feel this way, but they don't go to therapy for it. Like, it's not to that level. But I mean, that's every problem that we all see. So I think it's looking at like, what's the version where they do come in for therapy? What's happened that we've got the political climate. But, like, there's something that's leaning on. Maybe it's that comparison, but there's something that, like, it's untenable at this point. Like, they can't keep grinning and bearing it.

A (7:19)

Question. Maybe these two overlap. But I'm thinking about people struggling as parents to like of. And maybe it's like, when both fronts are a struggle. Mm. Then that, you know, when people's kids get involved, like, you know, I need to resolve this because this is really important to me. I don't know how that. If it connects to the other thing, but I do see perfectionism causing a lot of stress with kids because there's a point at which you can't really be a marionette anymore. Like, you can't just, like, your kids don't just do the thing that you want them to do. And if you've. If that's been your style up till they get to that point, then you kind of are at a loss for how to, like, deal with your own anxiety about them getting into the right school or doing the activities and the sports and the. All of that stuff.

B (8:29)

Yeah. And I think that, like, the. The parent looking for therapy for that might not have the insight. I don't know. It depends on your ideal client. But they might not have the insight that this was always going to happen.

A (8:42)

Right.

B (8:43)

That the kid is not always going to be this extension of you and do what you want them to do. There was something you did before that had them comply. But that's not what human beings do long term, especially as they grow and develop and need to differentiate. So they might see it more as like, I mean, I think we all experience this feeling to some extent as parents of like, they hit some new way of being and it's like what I did before was working and now I don't. Like, I have no idea what to do, you know, like, I've got a 12 year old, I'm in this space a lot of like, where did my sweet, sweet, affectionate girl go? What is this eye rolling that's happening? Even though I know it's developmentally appropriate, it's where she's supposed to be, there's still a desire to have her not be like that, even though it's part of her process.

A (9:32)

Yeah, I'm doing this stupid therapist thing of like, I just feel for you. That's. It's really hard.

B (9:41)

It is hard. And it's like a tale as old as time at the same time, you know, like, I'm in great company. Everybody who has got a kid and adolescence has been through this. Or they had that iron grip probably. So.

A (9:53)

So good job. You're not, you're not.

B (9:56)

Despite my proclivity, I did not control her into exactly who I wanted her to be. So that's good. I knew better.

A (10:04)

I had to be boot camped out of that when my oldest was two. So I got that.

B (10:10)

Yeah, yeah. This is like hit the ground running. There is really a correlation between the tween years and the toddler years. I'm finding it's interesting, but just with more language and they're taller. So I think it's looking at like, what is it about this parent and.

A (10:30)

How they're experiencing it. Yeah.

B (10:32)

Because they don't have. They're most likely not therapists, you know, so they haven't studied this.

A (10:38)

Right. And that is like the, what I did before was working and now I have no idea what to do is very familiar from clients I've worked with who had this like a lot of strong feelings about like the types. Even like the types of media their kids were getting and then being like, oh, I was like all the way over here on like, they should be, you know, listening to classical music. And now. Yeah, so that's. It's helpful to, to have the, like, okay, how, how are, how is this actually playing in there. So there's probably also some marriage stress with that. Unless both parents are immediately seeing everything from the same perspective. That, like, there's this change and we both immediately agree that this is our new approach.

B (11:37)

Right. And I'm thinking, too, about there being loss, like, a sense of loss of both.

A (11:44)

Like, especially when you mentioned the, like this, like, snuggly, affectionate kid, and then suddenly they're rolling their eyes at you.

B (11:51)

Yeah. But I mean, this even happens when they're two. Right. It's. It's. It's like there's this loss of, oh, my kid was one way, and I knew how to anticipate that. And I knew, like, they liked avocados, and now all of a sudden they hate avocado. You know, like, there's a loss of, like, competence.

A (12:06)

Competence.

B (12:07)

And when you already feel like you're not good enough and, like, you're not doing a good enough job, it can be really hard for folks.

A (12:15)

Yeah. That is a lot to lose. All at the same time.

B (12:20)

I think about, like, oh, gosh, come on. Getting into my old brain. Was it Erickson's stages of development? It's been a long time, but just, like, maybe thinking through some of those. I think Piaget had something. I can't remember. It's been a real long time since I took that licensing exam, and I just released it all after that. But, like, maybe looking at stages of development and thinking through, like, what's that like for your parent clients when that. That kid is achieving what they're supposed to achieve developmentally? Because I can imagine if you were to talk about that on your website of, like, somewhere around ages 10 to 12, like, this is. This might happen, and this is how you might feel about it. And they'll be like, holy shit. Like, how do you know you just hit all of them. How did you know all this? And this assumption that they might come in being like, well, you know, child development so well. So you're going to tell me how I can get the reins back, and instead you're going to be like, and here's how. You keep them out of your hands. You keep the corral, but you don't hold on to the reins.

A (13:25)

Yeah, that's what. Yeah, they're. They're going to be looking for the reigns, which makes total sense.

B (13:32)

Yeah.

A (13:33)

And I was immediately thinking about some bluey episodes that touch on. Are you kids. Are your kids young enough that you've watched any blue.

B (13:44)

I have watched, so. I mean, My oldest is 12. And, like, we will still curl up and watch Bluey with my. Her and my 9 year old. We all like it. It's good.

A (13:54)

I was just telling a friend this morning, one of my hot takes is that one of the biggest reasons to have kids is that you get exposed to a lot of art and culture that you would just not interact with if you didn't have a 5 year old to like make you do that. Yes. I feel like parents should like broadcast to the wider world like these are the typ top ten we. Yeah, the crap. And here's the. Yeah, Lou's up there. But yeah, I was like picturing the, the one with the. The babies. Baby. Baby race. I think that one. I think it's. Yeah, it's like all the moms comparing with each other who's rolling over and.

B (14:38)

I do remember that. Yeah.

A (14:42)

So maybe I can pull a clip for something.

B (14:47)

Yeah. I think that there's. There's also so much more pressure on parents now than there ever has been. And so there's more, there's both more education that all contradicts each other and then there's more opportunity for comparison because we're not just comparing to our neighbors anymore. We're comparing to like the white wide Internet and all of social media. And we all know that all that's fake. You know that like on the other side of the iPhone camera is like where all the toys are shelved just for the shot, you know, but. But at the same time it can really, especially people who are. Who are vulnerable to feeling not good enough can really, really hurt.

A (15:30)

Yeah.

B (15:32)

Okay, so we've got these two. I mean, I think the, the world. I think your ideal client. I would definitely be talking about social media use too because if it's the Venn diagram overlap of these two clients, they're freaked out about the world. They want to have more control over what they brought this child into. They want to raise their kid to be a good activist and a good citizen. They want to model all this. That's a lot of pressure at the gate, not even counting what might be going on in other parts of their lives. It can be that Venn diagram overlap. It can. You can touch on different pieces within the scope of the other. And you said like people have found you from perfectionism in your emails. If that has worked for you. Lean on it. Like use that word. I think we have. This is kind of a harsh way of framing perfectionism, but I think of it as like successful perfectionists and failed perfectionists. You know, like the successful perfectionists Are often like, yeah, I'm a perfectionist. I can't do a B plus job. It has to be an A plus and they can own it. And then the failed perfectionists are like, I can't claim I'm just not good enough to be a perfectionist, even though I try.

A (16:48)

So, yeah, I think of those as the. Oh, how did I. There's. Well, it's like the depressed. Oh, can't stop and can't Start.

B (17:00)

I love that. Yeah. Do you have a preference for the presentation? Do you prefer can't stop or can't Start?

A (17:07)

I like the. The two nice ones. And those can be either one of those.

B (17:13)

Yeah. And you can. So you can talk about them.

A (17:17)

I do like a challenge too.

B (17:18)

Yeah.

A (17:18)

Oh, sorry.

B (17:19)

Well, you can. I mean, you can talk about the can't stop, can't start within the context of that overly nice person. And I mean, you know, not to be like a TikTok therapist, but like, often underlying this is trauma. Right.

A (17:33)

I mean, if you want to talk like, the more I've thought about perfectionism, it is like a. Like the problem with it isn't the standards. It's the punishment that we use to meet the standards. And it is. Has been like a functional response to the American dream, to like class striving and trying to get away from uncertainty and instability and childhood and. Sorry. Yes. But that. Yes, I agree. Yeah.

B (18:02)

Yeah. My book club just read the book the Tell the new memoir by Amy. Amy Something Wilson. Maybe it's really, really good. And it's like, it's a memoir and it's her story of going from being like a high high. Like, I think she would have been one of your. One of your people and realizing she had repressed a memory and working through the trauma. She talked about it in such a. Such a way that like, I mean, therapists, we all know what it looks like for somebody to work through a trauma, like how hard that is. But I think somebody who hasn't experienced or somebody who has experienced trauma but hasn't worked through it, like you, the layperson might not know. And I think she described it so beautifully, like in such a clear way, in a painful way, but clear anyway. And aside, it's a good book, would probably feel like work. But.

A (18:50)

It might not surprise you to know that I my working for fun.

B (18:56)

Yeah. Yeah. I imagine your bedside table has some workbooks. Yeah.

A (19:00)

Most of them unread.

B (19:04)

So I mean, it also is like, does your ideal client identify anything that they've been through as trauma at this Stage before they've come in to see you. If they do, you can gently mention it. If they don't, then I wouldn't. I wouldn't necessarily.

A (19:22)

Okay, that's helpful. And it's also been helpful for me to think about, like, marketing and phases and like, the things that I talk about in this year of marketing might be different than the things that I'm talking about a year from now or two years from now.

B (19:37)

Yeah.

A (19:38)

And that there might be. Be in that. That part of me that's worried about feeling bored or limited, that I can be like, okay, that's year two material. You can still talk about that, but give it. Give it some time and space. So I'm taking what you're saying and like, thinking people are much more aware of the thing that's bothering them right now.

B (20:04)

Yeah.

A (20:05)

And focusing on that for the most part is. It did fascinate. Like I was telling some neighbors about what I do. And like, when you say. When I say I'm a therapist, perfectionist, people are like, that needs therapy.

B (20:24)

Sometimes.

A (20:25)

But when I talked about this, the like, American Dream, she's like, oh.

B (20:33)

Well. And I wonder too, like, the quick version of what you do, like, maybe you just throw over functioning perfectionists or overly generous perfectionists or like, it might just be, you add a word to clarify for the short version that helps people understand, like. Oh, well, yeah. If you're overly this or overly that, then certainly you need some therapy to get.

A (20:54)

That would be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because perfectionism is like our wider concept of perfectionism itself doesn't necessarily contain the impossible standards or the punishment that we use to try to reach them.

B (21:11)

Yeah.

A (21:12)

Thank you.

B (21:13)

Yeah, of course. Is that feeling clearer niche wise? Do you feel like there's. I mean, I know you probably need to sit with it for a while, but.

A (21:21)

Yeah, there. There are a couple of really helpful things in here. One is I can just narrow down by adding a few. An adverb or an adjective or. And that does something also to communicate to people, like, there's the overness of that. That. That lets you know that there's a problem there. And it's like a shortcut to helping people, like, recognize themselves in it. Whereas perfectionism might be so broad, but if you're like, oh, yeah, too generous. I struggle that. And that's also very like, IY the, like, woman who does too much kind of thing.

B (22:05)

Yeah, yeah. Because I think women are starting to realize, like, oh, about half of what I do is too much. Like, I could have done 50% of what I've been doing and would have been, like, doing normal, like doing fine.

A (22:18)

Yeah, yeah, that. And bringing it, like, I have been kind of trying to focus on where people are before they see anything that I've made and, you know, sort of successful with that because, you know, you think about like, X, Y and Z client. And this, like, this is what they said in the consultation call or this is what I like, let me really bring this person to mind. But having that focus on present tense. How are they describing it? Because I almost immediately am translating it into, okay, well, this is like, oh, okay, I hear I'm defective. We're going to get into that. So it takes, It's. It's good to break out of that, like, instant translation and go back to. No, no, no. What. What did they say? What are they seeing before they even get to my website? Because they might even start using some of my language just from my website. So it's helpful to try to, like, just picture the living room where the preteen is upset about something and.

B (23:34)

Yeah.

A (23:35)

And the parents are feeling stuck and overwhelmed. So. Yeah.

B (23:39)

Yeah. I think about the challenge of the overwhelmed perfectionist. Because, like, you're not allowed to be overwhelmed if you're a perfectionist.

A (23:48)

Oh, my goodness. The, like, negative emotions that you're like are not one of the. So I like, my clients fill out mood surveys and I see. And then we have to go through said, like, the most common presentation is very little in the way of anxiety or depression and very little in the way of happiness. So it's like, well, I can't. Like, obviously I'm not depressed because that would be a bad thing to be. And a bad person would be depressed. But I'm also very unhappy.

B (24:19)

Yeah.

A (24:21)

So the overwhelmed perfectionist is a trap. You're right. Because they're not allowed to be overwhelmed. And I cut you off. Continue.

B (24:27)

No, no, I think, I mean, that's just an interesting thing to consider. It's like, can they cop to feeling overwhelmed because it's not depressed or anxious? That there's actually. It's kind of like the word perfectionist. It's like I've just taken on so much. I'm just, you know, it's like, it's almost like a positive negative, you know, so if they can. If they can admit that they're feeling overwhelmed, then that. And they're perfectionists, then that might be a good way to a good in for them, essentially. But if they're also in, like. No, no, no. I can spin another plate it's fine. I'm just. I don't want to let you down, and I need to spin it really well, you know, so there's that, too.

A (25:06)

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's good to think about. Thank you.

B (25:10)

Yeah, absolutely. Keep hacking away at it. Throw it in the Facebook community and get some support if you need it.

A (25:16)

I will.

B (25:18)

Awesome.

A (25:18)

Yeah. This is great. Thank you so much, Allison. It's good to see you. Not in person, but in person.

B (25:23)

Yeah. Live. All right, I'll see you later.

A (25:28)

Take care.

B (25:29)

Bye.

A (25:29)

Bye.

B (25:32)

If you're ready for a much easier practice, Therapy Notes is the way to go. Go to therapynotes.com and use the promo code abundant for two months. Free. If you're listening, you probably need some support building your practice. If you're a super newbie, grab our free checklist using the link in Show Notes. I'd love for you to follow rate and review, but I really want you to share this episode with a therapist friend. Let's help all our colleagues build what they want.