B (3:31)

Yeah, me too. Take it out of our text messages.

A (3:34)

I know, right? But I guess. I guess everybody knows you, but maybe somebody in the world doesn't. Can you tell people a little bit about who you are in the world? Sure.

B (3:45)

I'm Alison Parer. I've been a therapist for over 20 years in private practice for 20 years. And I've been helping therapists start private practices and fill and optimize private practices for the last decade. Oh, no. 11 years.

A (3:58)

This week I actually saw your Instagram where you said you were talking about how you've been doing this for 11 years.

B (4:03)

Yeah.

A (4:04)

Yeah.

B (4:05)

It's so fun.

A (4:06)

It's wild. So I wouldn't. I want to start by asking you, over the past 11 years. This is a broad question. Take it anywhere you want.

B (4:12)

Okay.

A (4:13)

How have you seen the industry change? The. In terms of like, marketing private practices, in terms of how people are practicing? Just wherever you want to take that. Yeah.

B (4:22)

Oh, my God, it's so different. It's so different. So I will say over the last 11 years, I would say there was this. There was a struggle to get clients for folks up until maybe mid to late 2020. And then there was such a rush of clients. And I think what happened is we all decided, oh, this is the new normal. It used to be hard. We were in offices, we were only working with people locally. There were a few people doing virtual before COVID but then Covid happened. And so many people got into private practice for so many different reasons. And so many people were looking for therapy. And even now we have unprecedented numbers of people seeking therapy. But for lots of reasons, they're not finding private practice therapists as easily as they did back in 2020 through, I would say, mid 2023. Things started getting real hinky. That's Southern for messy. Started getting really hinky when I would say late 2023 through 2024. And certainly 2025 has been a weird year for private practice. Big Therapy tech has a giant influence, and I absolutely understand where clinicians are coming from in joining these platforms. They have taken out a lot of the friction of starting a private practice, which was, you know, you and I like that's our goals with people too, is to take the friction out of it. But it's just kind of a different exploitive system than, you know, an agency might be. And so Big therapy tech has come in, which is venture capital has come in. People who are not therapist associated or therapy associated, they're tech companies. They are then kind of changing the industry in significant ways. From a marketing perspective, certainly, which I will talk about. I promise I'll get there. But also, I would say as our economy struggles, as scarcity seems to be closer to people's hearts, it's easier for therapists to get discouraged. They aren't having as many quick wins as they might have had in 2021. And so people coming into private practice now are talking to their friends who did it a few years ago who were like, what's the problem? Why don't you just throw a blog post up or something? That's how I got clients. I did four blogs and filled right up. And that is not the case anymore. Therapists have to be so much more intentional with their marketing now than ever before. And it's harder. It's just harder to be more intentional. We're not, as a group of people, the most consistent human beings when it comes to tasks. So inconsistency is the name of the game when it comes to marketing.

A (7:21)

This is really interesting. I'm so glad you're bringing this perspective. The piece, the part I've been thinking about, we've been talking about, lady, of course, the past couple of years is big tech and how it's changing the online marketing space. For sure. What I wasn't thinking about and was not aware of because I was not in the space at the time really in terms of marketing, was pre pandemic. So I had to market my own practice. But you saw things pre pandemic and you're saying like the pandemic was a, like this boon for all of us. Like, it just became so easy. But you're saying before that it was still a str. Like you had to figure things out and be very intentional to bring in clients back in the days before that. Can you talk about that?

B (7:58)

Yes, absolutely. So you had to be intentional, but it was localized. So you had to be intentional in your community. So to that extent, it was easier than it is now, where virtual has made it more accessible for lots of people in lots of ways. And I know many therapists prefer virtual, but it means I could be working with people in multiple states. And it's really hard to market to multiple states at once effectively. In fact, I would say very few to know people do it. Well, unless you're like big therapy tech and have millions of dollars to do so. So it's a different world back, I mean, I started. I started my. I started helping people and making money doing it. I'd been helping friends for years, but helping people as a profession start private practices. In 2014, it was like, okay, this is networking in your community. We had the Internet so we could be like, what's going on? You know, in the community that is associated with your ideal clients or the who would refer them. And it was maybe very few people were messing with SEO back then. People who did like, good for them because they're kind of like legacy first page of Google until big therapy tech bumps them off. But there was. There was less emphasis on the online ways of finding therapists and clients, essentially, aside from maybe Psychology Today was really popular back then. But I have always focused on a mix of in person and online, even back then. But now what's interesting is everybody is shifting so hard to online. But y', all, we can't compete with Big Therapy tech online. We cannot. So I find my. I'm like steering people back to that more grassroots, community based, relationship based. Because big Therapy tech cannot compete with us when it comes to relationship networking and marketing in your communities. Even if it's a zoom networking because it's a community you don't actually live in.

A (9:56)

I love that it's making me think about. I just talked to a mystery guest. I did a podcast with a mystery guest before this one. And the way she thinks about business and strategy and the way I and you think about business and strategy. We have a thing in common which is if we want something, we're going to Fucking figure it out. Yes, it's hard. Oh, I don't know how to do that thing. It's hard. We're like, okay, well, we're going to figure out. We're going to figure it out. Like, life is hard. Leveling is hard. So I'm wondering if you notice the difference now. Post pandemic post, like the boom, boom in therapists who are like, it's so hard. It was so easy before. Now it's hard. And the way the mindset is impacting their ability to go out and market, does that feel different than back before the pandemic when it was still hard?

B (10:43)

Yeah.

A (10:43)

What are you noticing?

B (10:45)

People get discouraged much quicker. And I think part of it is they're comparing it to their friends who started a few years ago. And so they're like, what's wrong with me? So there's a lot more comparison. And I think that there's this idea of like, I missed my chance that I hear sometimes of like, if I had done this when I first wanted to, then, like, this would have been easier. So that's, you know, maybe four years from now people will be saying, if I had done this when I had wanted to in 2025, it would be much easier. So, like, get your ass out there and do it, y'. All. But I expect things to be hard. I kind of need to be up against pressure in order to, I don't know. I know I can trust myself to pull it out. I know I can trust myself. And I think a lot of people don't have that self trust, maybe because it hasn't been tested in significant ways. If you're like, I'm going to start a practice, it's September 2020. Oh, look, it's four weeks and I'm full, then you didn't have to go. You didn't have to walk through the fire to get there. And now that you are having a market intentionally and you've got a mostly full practice, but you're noticing referrals are dropping and maybe you've got some spaces now you're trying to fit in. How do I learn how to market while maintaining this caseload? Or how do you make changes to your fee structure? For instance, if you realize, like, I could be, I could be making double what I'm asking for. Making those changes in this economy is really scary and hard for people. And it's also very doable if you've got your marketing in line and if you've got some cushion so that you're not in Panic mode. Financially, it's interesting to think about this.

A (12:29)

I also think about you and I as we'll get into this in a moment. People who have online educational platforms or business coaching for therapists, what it's like for us to have to help therapists in this stage. When therapists got comfortable with like a quick fix. Fill my whole practice in six months or less, and I want to charge the life first fees and I get. And when it doesn't happen in like two weeks or even six months, the level of, like you say, discouragement, frustration. There's something around resilience that seems to have decreased because people are comparing it to the good old days. Right? That's right.

B (13:06)

Well, and I don't even know that it decreased. It might not have never have been there. Right. Like, a lot of therapists are very resilient, but maybe not in this realm which is so rooted in security. And so I think that there's. It was a lot more fun, I'll be honest, to help people build. And they're full in three months and everything is amazing. Like, that was a fucking ride. I loved it. And it is like, there's a lot more pep talks now, which I'm good for a pep talk. As you know, I'm kind of obnoxiously pep talky for people, but it's. It's a lot more like, I don't want to drag someone along. I want somebody who's like, I'm marching. Just like, I just need you to point me where to march and I'll point you, but it's not gonna. Nobody's gonna fill as fast as they want to right now. And that's been true since the history of starting a private practice. Everybody wants to be full next week. And that's never happened. Even when people were getting full in three months, it felt like it was taking forever. Yeah.

A (14:05)

Okay. This brings us to something that you and I talk about a lot. Also behind the scenes, folks. You're getting a lot of insider baseball today. You're welcome. When people are having a hard time filling their practice. And I think this has been the case, especially during pandemic times. But really now I'll talk to people who are like, oh, I really want to just start a group practice or start an online course and get passive income and take it to the moon. Like, I don't need to. And meanwhile, they're like, on insurance panels seeing 30 people a week with an 80% caseload. And like, and I'm gonna. And I'm gonna Add onto this passive income. So can we talk about. You've done both. You have had, and you continue to have patients in private practice, and you have had a very successful ride with online business coaching, mentoring therapists, worked with thousands of people. How do you think about this? I almost think about it like an escape hatch when therapists are actually not able to get their practice to work and they have a fantasy of like, I'll just scale it up, dude.

B (15:01)

It's so funny because when you first said it, I had to hold back a groan. And I get it. I've felt it at different points in my life too, of like, oh, I would love this get rich quick scheme. That'd be fantastic. And I think a lot of the people who sell courses on how to do courses or those kinds of things do. They're really great marketers and they do highlight the parts that are shiny and easy because that's the job in marketing. Make money in your sleep. And you and I make money in our sleep probably every night. And that's wonderful. And also we're marketing five days a week. And people are looking at these courses partly because of the way it's marketed, partly because of their fantasy of how nice would it be to just like, barely do any work and make a ton of money? I mean, that'd be. I'd have signed up for that. But the truth is, and I know you and I are super aligned on this, you gotta get your house in order first. Like, first get your practice exactly where you want it. If the reason you want this quote, unquote passive income stream, no such thing. But if that's what you want just because of money, then you're going to make way more money in an optimized private practice and you're going to be. Your life's going to be a lot simpler. It's funny, you and I were talking about this last night and I was just talking to a client about it this afternoon who was like, what about a course? And I was like, and I pulled up the profit first chart, which is something, a tool I use a lot for people, where it shows how much you bring home based on how much money you make typically. And if you're making a million dollars, you usually are taking home 20% of that. So that's $200,000, folks. And if, if you're making a million dollars, it's because you have a team. It's because you have these systems you're paying for. You've got all these, all this overhead, and you've got a lot of taxes and then you, the owner are bringing home 200k and how many clients do you need to see at a premium rate to make 200k? Yeah. And when people are like, I don't really want to optimize my practice because I don't love marketing. I'm like, literally your whole job with online, like any sort of online business is marketing. Once you've created the thing you're going to do, which takes no time comparatively is literally all marketing is your full time job. So if you're not like rabid about what you're teaching, which like you and I were and that's why we're still here years later, I couldn't not teach people how to start private practice. Like you couldn't have held me back from it. So if you're just doing it for money, you're not going to have the resilience to have an entire second full time job. And the learning curve is so much steeper for online business than, I mean than a therapy practice. I thought it was going to be like just a little bit more intense and it's a whole different ball game. Then I have lots of therapists who are like, well, it just feels like the next evolution is group practice. I've got all these referrals coming in. And again, completely different business. You have to love managing peers and that's what you're doing. You are managing peers. If you own a group practice, you are not really a therapist as much anymore, especially as you grow. And you typically have a dip at some point where you have clinicians working for you. But you are bringing home less money than you did as a solo practitioner until you have enough people working. So the profit margins are so slim. Like that 60, 40 split sounds like 40%'s a lot, but not when you're looking at overhead and taxes and paying people what they should be paid. And I would say 60% doesn't make a lot of sense to be paid as a therapist. But literally a group practice can't stay alive with much slimmer margins than that.

A (18:57)

There's so much we could go into here and we're going to try to go into some of it. I don't know. So if eight years ago someone had said, Tiffany, if you Simply charge even $300 or $500 a session and see 12 or 15 people a week for the next eight years and take even 20 or 30% of that and just put it in investments, I would have so much more money than I have right now so much more money than I have right now. And so even when I say that, because I could do it now, I could go right now and just charge $500 per session and have 15 people and see them every week. I don't know if I'd make that choice for reasons I may, but I didn't know that back then. So I love this idea of like when we're talking to people who are like, I just want to have a passive income stream so I can make all this money. It's like, what if you just saw 12 clients a week and made 200 or $250,000 and then at all the rest of your week to write and dream and pick up your kids from school and think, what would you want to do versus work eight years, make nowhere near that amount of money and be really having a growth curve in your life like you've never imagined. I think most therapists, they really looked at those numbers.

B (20:02)

Yes.

A (20:02)

They might just choose to have a life first fee, private practice 100%.

B (20:06)

And I'm in the same exact space because I always liked seeing a lot of clients. Here's where, okay, I'm going to divert and then come back. I think another thing that happens is so many of us are working our asses off in group practices or in agencies and we get on this trajectory of like, work, work, work. So I was working full time and I was working at my own part time private practice for five years. I did both things, Tiffany, like, what the hell was I doing before I went into private practice? And then when I went solely into private practice, I was like, I don't know what to do with my myself. I don't know how to fill my time. I don't have hobbies, I don't have other friends who have the daytime off. You know, I felt very adrift. And I think that's another time when therapists start being like, what else do I cram into my life such that like, it gets to a point where there's no spaciousness at all. Like all this freedom you seek is now full of funnels or managing employees or whatever because you just didn't know how to sit with yourself. So all that to come back and say, I'm in the same boat. Like I would have made way more money. If I like to see, I like to see like 20 clients a week. Like, I like that. That was the right number for me. And geez, if I had been seeing people at $4 or $500 and didn't have A staff to manage, which I will say, like, I have the best staff ever and I love them all and I'm glad I have them. But just the simplicity of private practice, take it from me and Tiffany, there is a beauty to that simplicity. And if you are on fire to do a thing like Tiffany and I have been in our other businesses, you can't not do it. And you're going to do it and take the hard knocks of those learning curves and it'll be worth it because you're following what's aligned. But if it's not, if you're not being pulled because you're so excited to share this thing with the world and you're just doing it for money, like, dude, keep your life simple.

A (22:02)

That's right. Two things I want to touch on from what you said. One is this idea of therapists being adrift when we have spaciousness in our life. Actually, I think so often that therapists keep themselves under earning and overworked unconsciously to not have space. Because in space one usually is forced to come to terms with our early attachment wounds, the parts of our lives that aren't working, the things that are hard to address and actually face in our real personal lives. So the many therapists are like, I gotta solve this private practice problem and I just can't do it is because the reality of actually solving for our private practice life means we have to actually look at all the parts of our lives that are not working and haven't worked for 40 years.

B (22:45)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and I will say lots of people, you know, they get full, they, they're happy with it and then they, and I'm, I'm guilty of some of too I'm scrolling, I'm doing what I can to avoid stillness and getting to a place where stillness is not like a chore, but something I can like look forward to. Because not only have I created that spaciousness, but I've created at least a little bit of comfort in it. Not a lot still, but every now and then I'm like, okay, I've got my white space time. I'm just gonna like sit and be. Or I'm going to take a walk with nothing on, no phone, no earphones, and just be. That's also when I have all the best ideas. But if I take that white space time, there's always some squirminess in it. And I mean, God, how much more discomfort am I going to try to add? Slash, avoid, right? It's like, which discomfort am I trading in or out because it's all like, life's hard. Which hard are you going to choose? You know, hopefully the one that's growing you as a person and aligned with your goals.

A (23:56)

Yes. Also I'm thinking about this question of why are we doing a thing? You know, if a therapist is like, I'm going to create passive income so I can make money in my sleep, that's false. That will not happen in this day. I often think about, oh, if I somehow got $5 million, what would I do? And I'm like, I would just keep doing what I'm doing. Like, I'm very aware that if you give me space and time and all the resources in the world, I'm going to do it. To understand the idea of building a business and having an impact, that's just what I'm going to do with all my time.

B (24:28)

Yeah.

A (24:28)

I think the same is probably true of you.

B (24:30)

Yeah. Well, and it's interesting because we've talked some about, like, my newer clinical niche. I was an eating disorder therapist for like 20 years, and I've switched to working with business owners who are either like, tanking their relationships because they feel competent at work and not so much at home, and people who are trying to sell their business and they're tanking the deal in the last moment because they don't know who they are outside of it.

A (24:51)

Wow.

B (24:52)

And so working with business brokers on those referrals because they lose a bunch of money on it too. So it's interesting how we get so wrapped up, identity wise, in what we're doing that we can love what we do. But if we don't have lives outside of it because we've let it eat up our lives, then what's the point? You know, we feel good at work because we're good at what we do and because we know that we are making a positive difference in the world. And I know I went through a really rough patch where I had a toddler and I couldn't get pregnant with my second kid. I kept having pregnancy losses and I just got to a place where I was like spending so much time working because it's where I felt competent, it's where I felt good. And then my husband was disappointed that I spent yet another extra hour at work and my toddler was needy.

A (25:43)

I.

B (25:43)

And I didn't feel competent at home. And so I think that's an interesting dynamic I see not just in my clinical population, but also in the therapists I work with. When they're nailing it, they're just like, I'm gonna take on another client. I'm like, you don't need another client. Which, I mean, I know you talk about it, but it's not just, why are you building what you're building? But why are you earning what you wanna earn? Like, what is that money for? Cause sometimes I'll have people who are like, I wanna make X number of dollars. And I'm like, why? What are you doing with it? Because it's always a round number. Nobody's ever like, I want to make $283,000. Nobody ever says that. They're all like, I want to make 250, I want to make 300. You know? But if you don't know how that money is working for you, then you're just on this striving treadmill that's never going to end. And it's not satisfying.

A (26:36)

That's right. I've been thinking about that a lot in my own life. This idea of having one's money gain traction, actually gain traction and work for me is like, oh, that also needs to be happening as a business owner, as a human being in the world who has a family and a life.

B (26:51)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (26:53)

I would love to talk with you for a minute about this, your switching of your niche.

B (26:58)

Yeah.

A (26:58)

One of the things we talked to our therapist about, and now we're using the language R to the third, which means actually when we're coming up with our marketing and who's going to be paying our life first fees, we need to be working with people who are resourced. They have the resources to pay us week after week, month after month, without fear or real money scarcity. They're ready. They have an issue right now. The burning pain that, like, tomorrow can't be lived like today. So. And then recognize, meaning we're not just like, I do emdr. Like, we're actually talking about who they are.

B (27:26)

Yeah.

A (27:27)

So one of the things we see therapists, so like, just a pattern, therapist after therapist, is when you ask them, like, who do you work with? They basically describe who they were 10 years ago.

B (27:35)

Mm.

A (27:36)

And that who they were 10 years ago did not have the resources to pay them. So they're like, oh, that's what I want to work with. So there's. There's a real fear about actually shifting one's niche to be in spaces where people have money, people have wealth, people have authority and leadership. Like, they've never been in those spaces. And another reason they don't do well financially is because they're scared of those spaces. So we work with them around that. So you have made this switch recently from working with eating disorders, which, you know, people can afford good fees, any eating disorders, but you're moving into, like, people who own businesses. People have been very successful. We're talking about millions of success. Like, money is not their issue. I mean, money is probably their issue, but the ability to pay you A$500 per session or whatever it is you want to charge $1,000 per session, that's no question to them. Right. How has it been for you? What have been some of the challenges in doing this? What has been scary about you actually changing niches and appealing to folks who are very resourced.

B (28:29)

Yeah.

A (28:30)

Okay.

B (28:30)

So I have to back up a little bit. I would say, being around those people.

A (28:37)

Okay.

B (28:37)

I grew up working class. My parents currently live in a trailer. I am not of this world. There is a very expensive private school in my city that has a school within the school just for dyslexic kids. And so when my oldest was diagnosed with dyslexia, we were like, okay, well, there's this magical school just for kids like you. Basically everybody who knew anything about it was like, it's worth remortgaging the house. Whatever you have to do to get your kid to this school, you need to do. We were able to afford it, even though it costs, like, what Yale costs. And she went there through all of elementary school. It was worth every dime. I'm so glad we did it. Our younger one started going to that. The broader school during COVID because the restriction. The COVID restrictions were really good. And where she was supposed to go was kind of like, you can wear a mask if you want. You can touch each other. It's fine. So our kids ended up going to this very exclusive school. And, I mean, I think my first week, it's like one of the parents was having a parents get together at their house, which I Googled. And it's like, I don't know how to show up to a $2 million house. I don't know. Like, I don't know what to wear. I don't know how to talk to these people. And I was kind of freaked out about it. But then as I was a part of this community and as I was making more and more money myself, I got more clear on. And I'd also been working. I've been working. I've had a high fee for a long time. So I've been working with wealthy people for a long time. And I was like, Everybody's got the same shit. Like, we're all struggling. And they might not be struggling with money. Some of them may be, even though they make an extraordinary amount. But we all struggle. And so that was kind of my first foray into it. And then we moved into the neighborhood right next door to this school, which is like the old money neighborhood. We are not old money people, but it was close to school. I loved the house. We bought this beautiful house in this neighborhood that has the same kind of reputation as that school. And so now I'm surrounded by folks. My kids are now in a different school. It's a whole thing of, like, finding where I fit, but without being less than that. Makes sense. So I have that community. I have that school community where I'm still friends with a lot of folks. I've got my neighborhood friends. And I also have this business community that I've been a part of in my Mastermind, where I am definitely like the smallest fish in that pond. Everybody's in the high seven to ten figures.

A (31:05)

Wow.

B (31:06)

We have billionaires in there sometimes. And I'd never been around a billionaire before, so just talking with folks again. We all have the same problems, having these really deep conversations with some of my mastermind buddies in between learning sessions and things like that, and realizing themes that continue to present themselves with the men particularly. And then all the women in that group have more masculine business energy. So we're all kind of like, go, go, go. So in being around these folks, I'm just, like, no longer intimidated. I think just the exposure to their dysfunction, their joy. Like, all the same stuff I've got going on in my life, just a different price tag. So I'm losing track of your original question. But all that to say, like, I stopped being intimidated by these richer people. And also, I'm very clear I'm not going to be taken seriously or be chosen by somebody who has a $50 million business. If I'm charging $150. There's no way. So I decided you and I have had this conversation about, like, these intensives that I'm doing. So I'm doing these intensives where people fly in to see me for three days. And there are two different kinds of intensives, but it's essentially this group of people, my business people, not my business people, because that's a conflict of interest. But, you know, they're friends. When I was talking to my business coach, I'm like, I don't know what to charge for this. He's like, how about 30 grand. And I was like, no, sir, I'm not having somebody pay 30 grand for three days. And he's like, well, what would you charge then? And I was almost still kind of joking. And I was like, 15 grand. He's like, done. That sounds good. 15 grand. And I'm like, it's three hours a day. He's like, okay, like it seems unreasonable. And he was like, okay, like it can feel unreasonable to you. That's fine. It doesn't mean it is. So when I booked my very first person for the intensive, he said, how much is it again? And I said, oh, it's 15,000 for the three days. And he didn't miss a beat. He goes, okay, that's reasonable. Same word. I said unreasonable. He said, reasonable. He didn't say, that works. He said the same word. I was like, okay, I hear you.

A (33:21)

Thanks, universe.

B (33:22)

Yeah, but I mean, if you had told me even five years ago that I'd be not just creating intensives for 15 grand, but booking them for 15 grand, I would have been like, I don't know about that, Tiffany. So I think for me being in such close proximity to people with so much money and realizing, like, so many people have so much money, which I didn't realize before, and I hear from a lot of therapists, like, who can afford $200 a session? And I'm like, well, not you and your friends, clearly.

A (33:52)

100%, yes.

B (33:52)

Right. But that's not the entirety of your community. That's not the entirety of your state. So kind of being exposed to people wearing $800 tank tops and like, shit like that, I'm like, they pay for therapy, it's fine. And while it was, it was almost like an experiment of like, nobody's going to buy this. And I came into it with that playfulness and that almost like I'm doing a little experiment. We'll see what happens. And then now I'm like, okay, yeah, people pay for this?

A (34:24)

Yes. Now I gotta get to 30K. That's the next. That's the next. You can do it.

B (34:28)

I still feel it. I feel like a something with that still, I gotta figure out.

A (34:34)

And the thing about, like, there are people who can pay. There are people paying $800 for a tank top, which I know is true. When you're charging 15k for 3 day intensive, you don't need 700 people. You need one. You need one person a month maybe. So it's like, it really reduces, I think, therapist, like, how I gotta find the people for that. How am I gonna find them. It's like you just need one to start. Yeah.

B (34:57)

Like literally 12 a year.

A (34:59)

Yeah.

B (34:59)

Right. And my goal is two a month. Yeah. And I mean that's 24 people and which also for people who do long term work, that's all you need in a year too. Just for like weekly therapy if you do longer term work.

A (35:13)

That's right.

B (35:14)

Versus like I think we our heads like I need so many but when we come at it from this perspective of I barely need anybody, I. I need as many people as can fit in this room. You know, like that's not a lot. That's right. Yeah.

A (35:27)

What you're talking about. Thank you for sharing that story. It's very exciting, very encouraging and I, I know that the folks listening, not all of them, but some of them are going to have so many feelings about what it means to work with people can afford an $800 tank top. We're not going to go into that now. We're going to use that concept to talk about this idea of how does one know the listeners right now? How do they know when they have a marketing issue or a mindset issue or which needs to be addressed first? The reason I'm thinking about this, so many people I talk to therapists who are like oh maybe I'll come do this work with you. They're like, but I don't have mindset issues. I don't have money mindset issues. I just need to understand how to market. And I think there's a real taboo around therapists acknowledging or there may be a lot of shame with acknowledging. They still have work to do on their psychology which makes them kind of circumvent the work they need to do with the fantasy that they just need to do marketing.

B (36:22)

Right.

A (36:22)

Can you talk about even just like a metrics around like oh, here's what I would look at are signs that people actually have a really strong mindset and have a really strong psychology and just need to learn some marketing techniques. Versus I can give you every marketing strategy and you Alison, can give people every marketing strategy in the world and it's not going to actually help them get where they want to go. How do you distinction?

B (36:43)

So it's so interesting. I would say the vast majority of it is mindset. Vast majority, at least 80% if not 90% of it because the marketing is not hard. The marketing is pretty formulaic. If you can speak to your ideal client, which you should be able to do because that's what you do all day. If you can message to them and you can help them find you. Like, that's not rocket science. But so many people get so bound up. And I know the folks in my audience struggle most with implementing. They're really great learners. They won't learn all the things. When it comes to doing the things and being seen and putting themselves out there, it's terrifying for them. And I get that. That fear of judgment. And especially, like the super judgy therapists out there, there are so many. And there's just so much mindset battle that we have to do to shuck off everything that we learned in grad school about how, like, we're here for helping people, not to make a living. The. Oh, you're charging how much? Who can afford that? Like, all the negative messages we're getting hold us back in ways. We have way more naysayers in most therapist communities around premium fees than we have people who are supporting one another. And so your community, my community, there are a few, like, really safe ones where you can go in and you can be like, I want to make some real money here without people being like, you selfish asshole.

A (38:16)

That's right.

B (38:17)

So I think looking at, Are you doing, Are you using marketing best practices? Let's just start there. If you're not using marketing best practices for whatever reason, if you know when I say marketing best practices and your brain goes niche, I need to have a good website. I need to be networking. I need to maybe do some other things online or in person to help people find me. If you think those things and you know what that looks like and you're not doing them, that's mindset, period. If you know so much, you listen to all these podcasts, people who are listening to your podcast all the time and they're not raising their fees, that is mindset. It's not a timing issue. Stop telling yourself it's a timing issue. Just join limb. Like, come on. It's not all these things that you're telling yourself it is. When I have clients who are, quote, doing everything right and they're not getting people in the door, there's usually something like my first client like that, where I could not figure it out. This was like, you know, 10, 11 years ago, and she was a couples therapist. And I was like, can I just ask you if there's anything in your relationship that might be hindering this? And she's like, oh, well, I mean, like, we're actually on the brink of divorce.

A (39:36)

Wow.

B (39:37)

And I was like, okay, Okay. I don't know exactly what that means. But I know that if I was on the brink of divorce and I was trying to help people with their relationships and I'm trying to market that, I would struggle. I would struggle not because I'm not a badass therapist who knows exactly what they're doing, but because I'm grieving and because I'm frustrated that things aren't going the way I'd hoped and all these other things. So the way that we show up when we're marketing is also extremely mindset impacted. If I'm feeling bad about myself or I've got imposter syndrome or something like that, I'm meeting with a psychiatrist and I think they're going to quiz me about exactly how I use my modality and what it is. And I feel like it's going to be the licensing exam. The way I show up to that is going to be really vastly different than if I'm showing up with that exact same psychiatrist. And assuming we are here to connect and understand what the other person does best so that we can give really great referrals to each other. And so because of our insecurity around business ownership, often a lot of our folks feel pretty confident clinically. But then you add that layer of business ownership and all of a sudden they're like, I don't know how to do therapy at all. And they do, they just feel insecure because they're doing something new. So did that answer that?

A (41:00)

Absolutely, it answered. I'm like, yes, yes, yes, yes. Usually I would ask for a takeaway, but I think that's the takeaway. And now people are already like, I want that. I want to understand more about this. Where can people find you? What's the best way to work with you right now? And this episode is going to be coming out in early 2026. So if people are like, I want to know more about how to be engaged, how can they connect?

B (41:24)

Yeah. So we have for folks who are starting a practice or a plateaued, we've got the Abundance Party which is mostly self led but we have some really cool community things that go on for people who are full and making changes. Like maybe people who come into limb and they're full in their practice and they're like, okay, I'm going to make these changes. And then they're like, I'm going to up my fee but I still have to work Saturdays or they're doing these things. We've got this program just for people who are. We joke that it's like full and miserable but it could be full and ready to optimize. And that's called limitless practice. And we're opening that back up in February. We do it cohort style.

A (42:00)

Okay.

B (42:01)

So I guess doors are opening in January, but we start February.

A (42:05)

Excellent. We'll make sure that people are hearing this episode in January so that they can still get into that. Right? Yeah.

B (42:11)

Yeah.

A (42:12)

And is that a good fit for someone who's like, my fees are good, I have my number of clients I want, and now I am kind of starting to explore the idea of doing intensives or, like, would that be good for those folks?

B (42:23)

Yeah, because we're going to look at what's getting in the way of that. Because if you've done all these things already, getting intensives off the ground isn't going to be super hard.

A (42:32)

Yeah.

B (42:33)

I mean, we have somebody recently who's like, I'm just here because there are parts of my practice that annoy me and I want that to stop. And then we have people who are like, I want to get off insurance and I want to work only these days at these times. And they're making huge overhauls. So it's kind of anywhere in between. There's a lot of individual and group work. So there's a lot of tailoring.

A (42:52)

Beautiful. So, folks, if you're like, I want to know how I could charge $15,000 for a three, three day intensive, I want to do what Allison's doing, then this is. This is the way they're going to get a lot of support from you.

B (43:02)

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's where I am most present, for sure.

A (43:05)

Where are you on Instagram?

B (43:07)

I'm at Abundance. Underscore practice. Underscore building.

A (43:11)

Perfect. And we'll also put that in the show notes, folks. Allison, this has been a wonderful conversation. It's fun to, like, let people in on, like, what's the reality, the behind the scenes, especially either for people who are just starting or for people who have been added a while, but kind of in the. They don't understand the history and like, what the trends have been over the past 11 years. So thank you for coming in and really sharing your insights about that. And I. I'm hoping that folks who are currently feeling like, oh, this won't work, or, oh, this is harder than I want, or, oh, this is discouraging. Having the context will help you listener understand, like, this is part of a cycle. It's part of a process. You can still be successful. Obviously, therapists still are being successful. You just have to be thoughtful and play a different game and not be thinking about like, oh, it's so easy five years ago. I regret that. And that keep you from actually solving for what's happening right now.

B (43:53)

Exactly. Yeah.

A (43:55)

Thank you, Allison.

B (43:56)

Thanks, Tiff. If you're ready for a much easier practice, TherapyNotes is the way to go. Go to therapynotes.com and use the promo code abundant for two months free. If you're listening, you probably need some support building your practice. If you're a super newbie, grab our free checklist using the link in the show notes. I'd love for you to follow rate and review, but I really want you to share this episode with a therapist friend. Let's help all our colleagues build what they want.