Episode 53: Talk Talk’s “Laughing Stock” (1991)

Summary

Accelerated Culture Podcast: Episode 53 Summary – Talk Talk’s “Laughing Stock” (1991)

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Introduction

Welcome to Episode 53 of the Accelerated Culture Podcast, titled Talk Talk’s “Laughing Stock” (1991). Hosted by Lori and Scott Free, this episode delves deep into one of the most influential yet challenging albums in music history. Recognized as a 2024 Webby Honoree for Best Indie Podcast, Accelerated Culture takes listeners on a sonic journey through the revolutionary sounds of the 1980s and 1990s, exploring the rise of alternative music and its often-overlooked milestones.

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Album Overview

Scott introduces the album as Talk Talk's final experimental masterpiece, released in 1991. He acknowledges the album's complexity and its significant impact on contemporary music, particularly within the post-rock genre. Scott remarks, “The group is Talk Talk and the album is their final album as a group, Laughingstock.”

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Band History and Evolution

The discussion begins with a brief history of Talk Talk, formed in London in 1981. Originally a new wave band often compared to Duran Duran, Talk Talk evolved significantly over five albums. Scott details the band’s initial sound, highlighting their departure from typical synth-pop by integrating electrified instruments as mere components rather than the foundation of their music. Lori adds, “They were like just another instrument that they were using.”

Mark Hollis, the band’s frontman, is portrayed as a complex figure with eclectic influences ranging from Roxy Music and David Bowie to Krautrock and classical composers like Shostakovich and Debussy. This diverse palette set the stage for Talk Talk’s unique sound trajectory.

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“Laughing Stock” Production and Themes

Scott emphasizes the album’s experimental nature, describing it as "challenging and influential." He explains the unconventional recording process, where session musicians were encouraged to improvise without a clear direction. This approach led to a fragmented yet cohesive final product, with an estimated 80% of the recordings not making it onto the album.

Phil Brown, the studio engineer, shares insights into Hollis’s quest for perfection, stating, “The album is an illusion… it took its toll on people, but gave great results,” highlighting the intense and sometimes tumultuous production environment.

Ben Wardle, in his biography of Mark Hollis, describes Hollis as occasionally brusque but also incredibly inspiring, pushing musicians to deliver their best work. This duality is evident in the album’s raw emotional depth and meticulous craftsmanship.

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Track-by-Track Analysis

1. Merman

   • Themes & Lyrics: The song opens with ambient sounds emphasizing silence, setting a contemplative tone. Lori interprets the lyrics as depicting a man contemplating suicide: “Help me up I can’t wait anymore. Blessed love the love I've seen.”
   • Musical Elements: David Stubbs describes it as a "meditative silence" interspersed with melancholic harmoniums and flugelhorns.
   • Notable Quote: At [43:38], Scott shares Stubbs’s vivid description, enhancing the listener’s understanding of the atmospheric build-up.

2. Ascension Day

   • Themes & Lyrics: This track delves into themes of divine judgment and mortality, with lyrics referencing biblical motifs like Cain and Abel.
   • Musical Elements: Executed in an unconventional 7/8 time signature, the song blends jazz with experimental rock, culminating in a sudden, jarring cut-off that symbolizes death.
   • Notable Quote: Jesse Harville of Pitchfork describes the song as “a small jazz combo being elbowed aside by a noise rock band with a climactic barrage of drumming.”

3. After the Flood

   • Themes & Lyrics: Continuing the biblical narrative, the song portrays destruction and divine wrath, followed by a sense of mourning and loss.
   • Musical Elements: At nearly 10 minutes, it features extended instrumental passages, a chaotic brass solo, and minimalistic vocals that convey deep emotion.
   • Notable Quote: Tim Freese Green recounts the creation of the iconic solo: “This is the end. This is as far as we can go. After one note, there's no notes.”

4. Taphead

   • Themes & Lyrics: Reflecting on rebirth and spirituality, the track transitions the narrative towards forgiveness and renewal.
   • Musical Elements: Combining contemplative guitar lines with abrupt bursts of instrumentation, the song maintains the album's introspective mood.
   • Notable Quote: David Stubbs praises the song’s ability to merge “jazz and contemporary classical elements” seamlessly.

5. New Grass

   • Themes & Lyrics: Serving as the emotional centerpiece, it symbolizes hope and resolution after turmoil, with strong biblical references.
   • Musical Elements: The track exudes a brighter, more hopeful vibe, contrasting with the preceding intensity, and features a unique drum groove that influenced artists like Radiohead.
   • Notable Quote: Peter Brewis, in Musicians on Mark Hollis, likens Hollis’s experimentation to “quietly exploring the boundaries between pop, rock, jazz, and classical.”

6. Rune I

   • Themes & Lyrics: The final track embodies post-rock aspirations, offering an elegiac conclusion that emphasizes minimalism and space.
   • Musical Elements: Characterized by spacious instrumentation and a melancholic tone, it leaves a lasting impression of solitude and introspection.
   • Notable Quote: Lori references Mark Hollis’s philosophy: “I would rather hear silence than I would one note,” underscoring the album’s emphasis on quietude and restraint.

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Legacy and Influence

Scott articulates Laughing Stock’s pivotal role in the genesis of the post-rock genre, describing it as “peak post rock before the term was even invented.” The album’s influence spans a diverse array of artists, including Radiohead, Godspeed You! Black Emperor, Mogwai, and St. Vincent. He draws parallels between Talk Talk’s experimental departure and Radiohead’s Kid A, emphasizing the latter’s roots in the former’s innovative spirit.

Moreover, the episode touches on Mark Hollis’s enduring legacy, noting his passing in 2019 and the profound impact his work continues to have on musicians and listeners alike. Annie Clark (St. Vincent) is quoted expressing how Spirit of Eden and Laughing Stock “saved her life,” highlighting the personal and emotional resonance of Hollis’s music.

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Conclusion

In wrapping up, Lori and Scott reflect on the emotional journey Laughing Stock offers through its six expansive tracks, each contributing to a overarching narrative rich with biblical symbolism and existential themes. They acknowledge the album's challenging nature but affirm its status as a masterpiece that demands attentive listening and deep reflection.

Looking forward, Lori announces the next episode will feature Material Issue’s International Pop Overthrow, promising a tonal shift and a "palate cleanser" after the intense exploration of Talk Talk’s final work.

Notable Quotes from the Episode:

• Scott Free [25:36]: “The Spirit of Eden… is a ground up overhaul that… is peak post rock before the term was even invented.”
• Lori [56:07]: “You feel the note. That's what's important for me. And Freeze Green. I would say that it is, without question, the best solo that we've ever got together.”
• Phil Brown [34:07]: “The album is an illusion… it took its toll on people, but gave great results.”
• Mark Hollis [74:36]: “I would rather hear one note than I would too. And I would rather hear silence than I would one note.”

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Tune in Next Time

Join Lori and Scott in the next episode on November 9th, where they will explore Material Issue’s International Pop Overthrow, bringing a fresh perspective to the Accelerated Culture Podcast.

Find more episodes and join the conversation at AcceleratedCulturePodcast.com.

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Note: The podcast includes music clips under the Fair Use Doctrine for purposes of criticism, comment, and news reporting.

Transcript

[Unknown Speaker]

Foreign.

[Lori]

Welcome to the Accelerated Culture Podcast. A sonic journey through the vibrant and revolutionary sounds of the 1980s and 1990s. And now 2024 Webby Honoree for best Indie Podcast. I'm Lori, along with my co host Scott Free. And in this podcast we explore how new waves stormed the airwaves in the early 80s and and gave way for the rise of alternative music in the 90s. Find us on the [e-mail] hello and welcome back to the Accelerated Culture Podcast.

[Scott Free]

I'm Lori and I am Scott Free.

[Lori]

What's going on, Scott?

[Scott Free]

You know, many things, most of them good. And more good things coming up.

[Lori]

Fantastic.

[Scott Free]

What do you know? What have you seen?

[Lori]

What have I seen? Well, I've seen a couple shows recently, but you were there with me.

[Scott Free]

We were at the same show at one point and then we were at a show together at another point.

[Lori]

Yes.

[Scott Free]

The first of them, October 13th, I want to say Sunday, October 13th was the Jesus and Mary Chain with the Psychedelic Furs at the Salt Shed in Chicago. And both shows really, really top notch. I'd been wanting to see the Jesus and Mary Chain for a long time. I hadn't seen them in a long time and they did not disappoint. I went into that show, though, with Psychedelic Furs expecting, you know, I like the big singles, but I wasn't necessarily expecting a lot. And I had a blast. There are more hit singles than you probably remember and they were so tight. The band sounded great, they were having a good time, the crowd was having a blast. That was a really fun show.

[Lori]

It was. It was fantastic. I had a lot of. A lot of friends there. I'm surprised we didn't run into each other. But then again, the Salt Shed's a big place.

[Scott Free]

Indeed. I did run into one of my bandmates there that was.

[Lori]

Oh, did you?

[Scott Free]

Yeah. And you know, Richard Butler, he was always a cool, charismatic cat. The friend with whom I attended the show did say he really was forward thinking in that when he was a young man he must have smoked a lot of cigarettes. So he had that kind of rasp to his voice and it has just aged like a fine bourbon. Raspy. But really a great showman.

[Lori]

Yeah. And then.

[Scott Free]

Yes.

[Lori]

Yeah. So then you and I went to see the band James, one of my personal favorites. Oh, and Johnny Marr, who was of course the guitarist from the Smiths. And that was a freaking awesome show.

[Scott Free]

Not just the guitarist from the Smiths, also from electronic, and co writer and programmer and sequencer and all that. And you know, we just did a couple episodes ago, an episode on Electronics, self titled album, which opened my eyes to a lot more of Johnny Marr's career beyond the Smiths. And that show was a blast, like two fifths Smith songs. And the crowd would go bananas for them. Like another 2/5 of Johnny Marr's solo work. And then a nice sampling of electronic singles as well as the second to last song, the first song of the encore, he did Iggy Pop's the Passenger. And Tim Booth of James came out to share the mic with him for that track and, yeah, that was a great time.

[Lori]

Well, and you know how much I love James and I love Tim Booth and so. So he is 64 years old. And listeners, I am not exaggerating when I say he literally climbed a wall up onto the balcony and started moving through the crowd and singing to people in the crowd up on the balcony. I'm not 64, obviously. I don't think I could have done that climb at 34. His energy is just absolutely phenomenal. I mean, his dancing off the chart. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Had you seen. You've seen them before, you said, right?

[Scott Free]

Yeah, I saw James at Lollapalooza 97. So that was the last time I had seen James. So it's been a minute.

[Lori]

Yeah. But no, it was. It was an awesome show. Thank you for going with me. That was a lot of fun.

[Scott Free]

My pleasure. Yeah. And then coming up, by the time this episode actually airs, I will have also seen the the also at the salt shed, and I am really looking forward to that one. I saw the the in 2018 in Royal Oak, Michigan, and they absolutely blew me away. Matt Johnson is an artist of many talents. He. He writes the music and sings the songs. He does the video, which features his paintings that are oftentimes his album covers and amazing talent. Really looking forward to this new show. The new album is a slower, more mature sound for the Dot, but, you know, we're all getting older. He's allowed. Fine album. Yeah.

[Lori]

Well, I'm excited for you because I know what a big fan you are, so that's fantastic.

[Scott Free]

Yep.

[Lori]

All right. Well, Scott, you chose our album today. What did you choose?

[Scott Free]

I did choose the album and boy, I knew what I was getting into with this one. It is a challenging album, an influential album, and by many current artists telling an important album. But, boy, is it difficult to talk about. The group is Talk Talk and the album is their final album as a group, Laughingstock.

[Lori]

Now, I had never heard this album before.

[Scott Free]

But you did know Talk Talk.

[Lori]

I did know Talk Talk mostly from.

[Scott Free]

Their singles, which primarily came from their first three albums, right?

[Lori]

Yes, right. And they had more of a. Like a synth pop sound. I mean, kind of in a similar vein to Duran Duran in their earlier years.

[Scott Free]

Good reasons for that, as we'll talk about.

[Lori]

Yes. So this was really. This was very interesting to me. The first few times I listened to it, it was nice. It was just kind of a, you know, mellow background music like I like to listen to at night anyway.

[Scott Free]

It's atmospheric.

[Lori]

Yes, definitely. Very jazz inspired. But then. And we will definitely have to talk about this over the weekend, then I started listening to the lyrics and. And then it was like a whole other level for me. I mean, this is this. I. I guess you would have to describe this as a concept album.

[Scott Free]

Experimental. I would go with. But yeah, okay. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the concept because I focused, as I often do, more on the music. If you. Things to say on the lyrics, then we might just have a good episode on our hands.

[Lori]

All right, well, let's. Let's get to it then. I'm looking forward to it.

[Scott Free]

All right. So as I said, the album itself is difficult to talk about. And part of that is you really do have to understand the trajectory that this band, and in particular its leader, Mark Hollis, took to get to this point. So the basics. Talk Talk formed in 1981 in London and at the time consisted of Mark Hollis on vocals, guitar and piano, Lee Harris and Paul Webb on drums and bass respectively, who joined having been recruited from a ska band called Escalator and recruited by Mark Hollis's elder brother Ed, who had produced Escalator's demo, and then Simon Brenner on keyboards in the beginning. So they started off as a new wave since pop band and were often described as new romantics. As you said, they were oftentimes compared to Duran Duran. But even back then in their. In the beginning, there was a complexity to their music. No diss to Duran Duran, who is actually surprisingly deep and complex for a new romantic band as well. But like Talk, Talk was not a synth pop band like say, Vince Clark era Depeche Mode and don't get me wrong, I love Vince Clark and Depeche Mode both, but very early Depeche Mode felt like the synths and the sequencers and the drum machines were leading the way. While with Talk Talk, this was more complex music with some electrified instruments and even the synths they used were in service of the sound. They were like just another instrument that they were using. Take the first big single off of Talk Talk's debut album, the Party's Over. That was the band's self titled song, Talk.

[Unknown Speaker]

What did I tell you before I was up? Anxiety was bringing me down. I'm tired of listening to you talking around Twisting around to make me think you're straight down the line. How you doing?

[Scott Free]

Like, this song has a big sound with dense layering synth drums, but not just drum machines. It's a live drummer playing synthetic drums and electric bass, Big vocal harmonies. Like, musically, in the early days, they drew inspiration from Roxy Music and you can kind of hear a little of Brian Barry in Mark Hollis's voice. Right?

[Lori]

Yeah, yeah. And actually, I think I. I read somewhere another influence was David Bowie's Heroes.

[Scott Free]

Oh, absolutely, yeah. And there's a good reason for that as well. The producer on that first album, I believe, actually was one of the engineers on Bowie's Heroes album. So.

[Lori]

Colin Thurston.

[Scott Free]

Right, there you are.

[Lori]

Yes, yes. And Colin Thurston actually is very famously known for Rio by Duran Duran.

[Scott Free]

So between that general new romantic, synth based, but a legit band with synths and the name that is the same word repeated twice. Talk, Talk, Duran Duran, they got a lot of comparisons. I found a really good article and it is worth mentioning. I'm going to refer to it repeatedly throughout this episode, but it's called the Legends of Mark Hollis and it appears in classic pop magazine. Hollis was schooled as a 70s youth in an extraordinary range of music by his erudite brother Ed, manager of Canby island pub rockers Eddie and the Hot Rods, and his recordings with his first band, Hollis's first band, the Reaction, also managed by Hollis Sr. Reveal a man well versed in punk and new wave. And the press at the time were baffled and sometimes aggressively negative. And Hollis's attitude didn't help. Like, even in the early days, he was standoffish and sarcastic and sometimes a bit of a prankster in interviews and with the press, and actively hated making music videos.

[Lori]

I was gonna say, I was wondering to myself why Talk Talk was not bigger here in the States. I mean, there are pockets of fans shout out to my friend Molly, who's probably listening. She's a huge fan, my friend Rob and Van Brown.

[Scott Free]

But look, we'll talk about him later.

[Lori]

Oh, hey, Dan Brown. I thought perhaps it's just because Mark Hollis was not a conventionally attractive man, unlike Duran Duran, where you have five absolutely gorgeous boys.

[Scott Free]

They were very pretty, they still are.

[Lori]

But what you were just saying about how he was very reluctant to make music videos. I wonder if that's part of it too, because really?

[Scott Free]

Oh yeah. He was not willing to play most of the games that were required to be big in the music video era, and that included making videos where they were trying to look good, singing and giving interviews and being friendly with the press. He hated the interviews and he would be weird and off putting. So, you know, wasn't willing to play the game and so didn't get the big rewards like some of the prettier bands who loved the spotlight. Right. So Hollis also cites some impressive and wildly disparate and oftentimes baffling influences Kraut rockers can Otis Redding, Traffic, King Crimson, J, John Coltrane, Duke Ellington, Shostakovich and Claude Debussy. That is not the typical playlist that you see for most of the new wave artists of the time, I would say. So Talk Talk's first album, the Party's over, already touched on it a bit, but as I said, new wave and more specifically new Romantic. It's more like Tears For Fears debut the Hurting, but like even more lush. Whereas Tears For Fears could be a little bit spare and cool. Talk Talk had a bigger sound. Big singles were first Mirror man, which actually isn't really a big single. It didn't go very far. Talk Talk, the second self titled single preceded the album, reached number 52 in the UK, which is not a huge hit. Then the album dropped in July of 1982, went as high as number 21 in the UK, but by 1985, three years after its release, it had sold 60,000 copies. So it wasn't a blockbuster hit by any means, but a pretty solid debut. So, you know, a strong debut, but one that people sometimes dismissed because of it being new romantic, new wave and synth pop as being lightweight. I think it's not entirely fair, but that was the general Reaction, their second album.

[Lori]

Before you get into the second album, please you know what, I did not realize you had mentioned Mark Hollis's previous band, the Reaction. Yes, Hawk Talk was actually a song originally recorded by the Reaction.

[Scott Free]

At the time it was entitled Talk Talk Talk Talk, as is the chorus.

[Lori]

Yep, yeah.

[Scott Free]

This track was a re recording and a re release and so good that they named the band after it, Talk Talk. So that gets us to the second album, it's my.

[Unknown Speaker]

Will Convince myself It's my life don't you forget it's my love it's never.

[Scott Free]

It saw a new producer for the band, with Thurston being replaced by Tim Freeze Green. I hope I'm saying his name right. Forming a partnership that lasted for the rest of Talk Talk's five albums. The first single was such a shame. That's not to say it wasn't good. The title of the single was such a shame. It cracked the top 50 in the UK. It made the top 10 in France, Italy, the Netherlands and West Germany. Hey, remember when there was a West Germany? Anyway. But what's most historically significant is the title track. Obviously, it's My Life. If you know nothing else by Talk Talk, you know this track. If for no other reason. No doubt's relatively faithful 2003 cover of the song. But I don't know how you felt about that one when it came out.

[Lori]

You know, I actually really liked that. I thought Gwen Stefani did it justice.

[Scott Free]

I think it was a fine cover. It was pretty faithful. Not quite note for note, but real close. You know, Mark Hollis's voice for me, has a vulnerability that Gwen Stefani, I think, sometimes poses at. But like, I don't know, for me, the original is the more authentic.

[Lori]

And incidentally, this is also one of my go to karaoke songs.

[Scott Free]

Oh, is that right? Yeah, I could see that working for you. Even this early in Talk Talk's career, you can see the seeds planted and germinating. I suppose that will become their later albums, which are to this day considered hugely influential. Third album was entitled the Color of Spring. Wyndham Wallace, who wrote the article the Legends of Mark Hollis, said of it. As for that pivotal third album, Hollis declared it only came about because he had a bigger budget. Previously, he claimed electronic instruments were employed purely because he couldn't afford real musicians. But with It's My Life, producer Tim Freese, Green established as his co writer and Brenner the keyboardist now gone, he now adopted a defiantly organic sound, populated by contributions from a lot of accomplished musicians.

[Lori]

And speaking of which, didn't Steve Wynwood guest on that album?

[Scott Free]

He did. He did. Steve Wynwood, a fantastic keyboard player. And yes, also the pretenders, Robbie McIntosh, they had a big budget now that they had had a couple albums with big enough singles under their belts. And so, yeah, they spent it on getting guest musicians and playing instruments and studio time. And it really shows. There are no synths, they're organic instruments. And the big single off that one is Life's what you make it. I remember distinctly when this song came out, my buddy Rob had gotten the album Color of Spring, and yeah, it was different. Like, I had loved the first two albums because hey, I'm a shameless fan of new wave. There's a reason I'm on this podcast. But this album was different. It was organic. And that first single, Life's what you make it. It's almost plodding. There's that piano baseline that just goes like that for the entire song. It is one riff that repeats for the entire track, and then other aspects weave in and out through it. There's those big vocals. Everything's all right as part of the chorus, but Hollis's voice is really part of what's carrying it and really selling it.

[Lori]

It's fantastic. It was just amazing. Yeah.

[Scott Free]

And the backup vocals. I really should know which member of the band was doing those. Everything's all backup vocals.

[Lori]

Oh, Paul Webb. Paul Webb was doing the backup vocals.

[Scott Free]

Oh, thank you. Very good. So the album sold 2 million copies, which is a huge step up. The band went on a world tour. It would be their last. And they did a set at the Montreux Jazz Festival, and a concert video was made from that set. And again, Windham Wallace, from his article the Legends of Mark Hollis, said, and I think this sums it up afterwards, in another confounding display of artistic idiosyncrasy. Having secured worldwide hits and wowed audiences with an enviably tight band, Hollis turned his back on performance, making only occasional awkward promotional appearances from then on, starting with this point in time, Talk Talk's career with Mark Hollis stepping away from performance and then the musical direction that the subsequent albums will take. Depeche Mode's Ellen Wilder once called it a career in reverse, with the distinct schism between the band's first hit albums and final neglected two, bridged by the Color of Spring's international accomplishments. They got huge, or at least relatively huge for a new wave band in 1986, and then took a turn away from all of the things that had made them huge, both in terms of touring and performance and in terms of musical direction. And where most bands start small and aspire to get huge, Mark Hollis was like, nope, from here on out, I'm doing only what I want. And what he wanted was not the new romantic new wave that they had been doing up to that point. Right. We will get to Laughingstock, I assure you, but it's important to see this trajectory, so stick with me. The fourth album, Spirit of Eden. I have another article that I do quote a little bit here from an article entitled the Importance of Mark Hollis and Talk Talk's Musical Legacy, written by Al Newsted in Australian online music station Double J's blog, the Spirit of Eden, from the muted horn that opens it to the glowing organ that dimly sends it off, is a ground up overhaul that doesn't just substitute synths for strings and hooks for haunting abstract atmosphere. It's an inside out reinvention. It's a mysterious, masterful amalgam of neoclassical experimentalism and avant garde jazz that was peak post rock before the term was even invented. Recorded over a budget, busting two years and released with the intention of zero singles, promotional videos or touring, the Spirit of Eden isn't just a rejection of the sound that afforded the band their creative freedom to begin with after the commercial success of the Color of Spring, but of the very conceit of pop music as a whole. It was kid A, long before Radiohead.

[Lori]

Did it that led to a contract dispute with the record label, didn't it?

[Scott Free]

Yeah. Everything that I just said does not add up to 2 million teenagers want to buy this album.

[Lori]

Right.

[Scott Free]

And that's not what he was going for.

[Lori]

Right. And, and my understanding is that EMI actually wanted Mark to go back and re record some of the songs.

[Scott Free]

Right.

[Lori]

And he would not compromise his artistic vision. I think this was actually their last album on that label, wasn't it?

[Scott Free]

In fact, it was. And if everything that I had just described, or rather quoted Al Newsted in describing, sounds more like jazz than it does pop, rock or new wave, well, that was intentional. And the next album, Laughingstock, which we will get to, I assure you, was actually released on Verve, one of the big jazz labels. Another quote about Spirit of Eden, this one from annie Clark from St. Vincent. And I freaking love St. Vincent and freaking love Annie Clark. She said in the wake of Mark Hollis's passing. And I probably should have opened with a spoiler alert, spoiler alert. Mark Hollis passed away in 2019.

[Lori]

Yeah, he was really young too. It was 64.

[Scott Free]

Maybe he was 64. Yeah. Immediately in the wake of Mark's passing, Annie tweeted about Spirit of Eden. Talk Talk's Spirit of Eden really saved my life, which is, you know, bold words. She elaborated in an interview with Milwaukee radio station Wyms. To me, it's divorced from any people or places. To me, it's headphone music in random cities all over the world. It's a beautiful record. It's a whole piece of work and it's a real unfolding meditation. Light a candle, turn off your phone and listen to that record. And I did exactly that. I can say in doing the research for this and doing the listening, the Spirit of Eden and Laughingstock are amazing headphone albums. And don't just settle for little earbuds like you had a nice pair of headphones and in a dark room. Just listen to these records. They have such an amazing sense of space and the organic instruments and Mark Hollis's voice right in your ear. Chills, man, I'm telling you.

[Lori]

And I think another thing too notable is the use of silence.

[Scott Free]

Oh, yeah.

[Lori]

There are places where the absence of sound is actually very meaningful.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, yeah. Striking. And, yeah, it gives you chills. Yeah. On Spirit of Eden, this is once again from the Legends of Mark Hollis from Classic Pop magazine. I love this one. But 1998 Spirit of Eden, as well as the similarly commercially ill fated Laughing Stock and Mark Hollis appeared most lauded. And these, in contrast, are best heard with the lights down, when the beauty, comfort, and redemption they offer are most affecting. More importantly, one listens to them alone, making this a private, even intimate relationship. In the wake of Hollis's passing, it appeared there was an entire community of like minded souls whose lives those albums had touched in an uncommonly profound manner. Suddenly, it transpired we'd never been alone at all.

[Lori]

Wow.

[Scott Free]

Right?

[Lori]

Yeah, right.

[Scott Free]

So part of what happened in that transition from the third album, Color of Spring, to the fourth album, Spirit of Eden, is Mark Hollis embracing, as you said, the silence, or at least the quiet. And it's a much repeated quotation of his. What appears to have been Hollis's central creed, expressed yet again in an interview with John Pigeon around Laughingstock, was this. I would rather hear one note than I would too. And I would rather hear silence than I would one note. So he was getting more and more stripped down, more and more minimal and embracing quiet in his music. And compare that to the first album, big single, Talk Talk, with those huge bombastic drums and that big banging piano solo and a huge chorus. This is getting to be stripped down, minimal, almost jazz. And that gets us to the fifth album and the actual subject of today's episode, Laughing Stock. Thank you for sticking with me through that journey.

[Lori]

Right, yep, I noticed that for Laughing Stock. You know, I mentioned earlier that I think this is a concept album. There's a lot of religious imagery appearing in the lyrics of these songs, and I think that might have started with Spirit of Eden, because, you know, Garden of Eden and Genesis, right?

[Scott Free]

Yeah, yeah, You're. You're the one who loves to get deeper into the lyrics. I'm interested to hear what you have to say on this.

[Lori]

All right.

[Scott Free]

Right.

[Lori]

All right. So, you know, as I said, Scott I had not heard this album prior to your suggesting it. So, you know, I've been listening to it. I've also been trying to find out as much as I can about it. I was very interested to learn that they brought in basically a bunch of session musicians and asked them to improvise without necessarily knowing where their music was going to fit into the album tracks.

[Scott Free]

Right.

[Lori]

And basically they were just encouraged to try out anything they want. And then using the magic of digital editing technology, Mark Hollis then would take pieces of these songs and rearrange them and put them in different places where maybe they originally hadn't been intended to go. And most of the recording, one estimate I read 80% actually never made it onto the album.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. Made it onto the cutting room floor instead.

[Lori]

Right, right, right.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. Great quote here from studio engineer Phil Brown, who worked on Talk Talk's last two albums. I know the album feels like seven guys playing live in a room, but every note is, quote, placed where it is, Brown told me, recalling Hollis's quest for perfection. The album is an illusion. Both it and Spirit of Eden are, of course, now deemed pinnacles of artistic achievement, which put music beyond any other consideration. But it's not that this came without pain. It took its toll on people, but gave great results. Brown continued. There was divorce, breakdown. It was intense. I have never worked on more focused sessions, though, and no, I would not work in the dark again. And that is both metaphorical in that he would have people perform not knowing what the track that they were performing for sounded like, and then also literally had them play in the dark.

[Lori]

Oh, now that I didn't know.

[Scott Free]

Another report where he had one keyboard player and taped his fingers together.

[Lori]

Really?

[Scott Free]

Yeah. Let's see here. There's a great quote here from his biographer, Ben Wardle, and it should be noted Mark Hollis absolutely did not want this biography written and did not cooperate with him for it. But Ben Wardle said it's true there were occasions where he could be a bully. Lee Harris was repeatedly asked to replay a drum part during the recording of Laughingstock without any explanation as to what he was doing wrong. But there are an equal number of occasions where interviewees told me how lovely Hollis was. Harmonica player Mark feltam, guitarist Robbie McIntosh and pianist Lawrence Pendras all recounted in detail how enjoyable his company was. Ditchum, too, said he never witnessed any difficult or uncomfortable situations, adding, his approach certainly got the best out of a musician. So, like, sometimes he was a bully, sometimes he was a great guy. He was apparently a lot of fun and Loved practical jokes and going to the pub, but also a sometimes ruthless taskmaster in the studio. And, well, the result is this album. Okay, so Laurie, when I first presented the idea of doing this album as an episode, one of the first things that you did, as you often do when I suggest a record and Sometimes it has 22 tracks and it's like we can't do track by track analysis of 22 tracks.

[Lori]

I don't sound like that.

[Scott Free]

One of the first things you did was go to the track list. And this album is six tracks. That's it.

[Lori]

Right. But the tracks are long, epic length.

[Scott Free]

But yeah, there's only six tracks. So as we get to the track by track analysis. Well, it won't take that long.

[Lori]

Maybe, maybe not. We'll see. Because that's probably not going to be.

[Scott Free]

One of those episodes where our analysis goes longer than the track itself did.

[Lori]

Well, I hope not. I hope not. So it's probably worth mentioning the band members that were featured on this album. At least the core band members, because as I said, they really brought in a lot of session musicians. So really Talk Talk at this point is stripped down to two original members. Mark Hollis and as you mentioned, Lee Harris on drums. Tim Freeze Green, as you mentioned, he features very heavily on like the piano organ harmonium. And I really got the impression from everything I've read about this that this was really a Mark Hollis sltim Freeze Green partnership. This entire album.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, they were co songwriters on really, the whole album, right?

[Lori]

Yeah, I think so.

[Scott Free]

All.

[Lori]

All six tracks. Yeah, yeah.

[Scott Free]

And then there's everyone else.

[Lori]

Right, right. I'm just reading off the Wikipedia page here. Sorry, guys. Mark Feltham on harmonica, Martin Ditchum on percussion, Levine Andrade, Stephen Tease, George Robertson, Gavin Wright, Jack Glickman, Garfield Jackson and Will Gibson on viola. Simon Edwards and Ernest Mothall on acoustic bass. And I really like the acoustic bass on some of these tracks. Henry Lowther on trumpets and flugelhorn. You just can't get a good flugelhorn these days.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, no, you don't hear a lot of flugelhorn outside of old Maynard Ferguson records. And I do. Or Chuck Mangione, I suppose.

[Lori]

Okay, Mangioni.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, I love me a flugelhorn.

[Lori]

All right. And then Dave White on contrabass clarinet.

[Scott Free]

Oh, hell yeah. That's where you get those big bassy notes. That makes sense. I didn't realize there was a contrabass clarinet. And I love that.

[Lori]

So I do know out of the six tracks, three of them were singles.

[Scott Free]

Oh, yeah.

[Lori]

Yes. And then the B sides were pretty much the other tracks from the album. And then eventually, I guess, they were released as part of a box set.

[Scott Free]

Interesting.

[Lori]

Yeah.

[Scott Free]

Like, the record company was like some A and R rep was just like, I think I hear a single here. And I'm not sure where those singles would get played because again, radio airplay was not Mark Hollis's goal with Laughingstock.

[Lori]

Right, right.

[Scott Free]

Yeah.

[Lori]

All right, so. All right, so I guess, Scott, that brings us to the track by track analysis.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, let's do it. Let's get into it.

[Lori]

Okay. So the first track is called Merman. Now, that's Mer, like the incense, not Merman, as in Jason, Momoa and Aquaman.

[Scott Free]

But, you know, I think that word played is not unintentional.

[Lori]

Well, we'll talk about that in a second. Let's listen to a little snippet of the song.

[Unknown Speaker]

Help me up I can Blessed love the love I've seen Step by idle step with one.

[Scott Free]

Are you ready to get contemplative?

[Lori]

Such a dork. But no. So you mentioned some wordplay going on with this song title. It can't be a coincidence. You mentioned the first album, the Party's over, and then Mirror man was released as Talk Talk's debut single. And now we're starting off with Merman. There's some parallels there. Right?

[Scott Free]

I will definitely buy into that. Yes.

[Lori]

All right.

[Scott Free]

All right. So right out the gate, you know, you're in for something very unlike the Talk Talk you used to know. There's like, 16 seconds of softly chugging, rhythmic room noise. I don't know what it is, but it's very quiet. But it's definitely rhythmic pulsing, something.

[Lori]

I kind of thought it was like amplifier hiss or like electronic, you know?

[Scott Free]

Yeah. Room noise amp. Yeah, like that. Yeah.

[Lori]

Yeah. I was reading an article where Mark Hollis explained this was deliberate because they wanted to emphasize the importance of silence. And so I mentioned earlier about how absence of sound, the quiet, as you said, is really important on this album.

[Scott Free]

So it's like somebody who opens a conversation by talking really quietly, making you lean in to hear what they're saying. Whoa. Right.

[Lori]

Yeah. And then another author that I was reading said that the opening, that 15, 16 seconds, partly acts as a nod back to the Rainbow, the opener to Spirit of Eden, which features an extended passage of a fan, like, object whirling in the wind after the intro.

[Scott Free]

I buy that.

[Lori]

Okay. One of the articles that I came across, it was a really detailed article by an author named David Stubbs. I love the way that he explains some of this, so he writes, merman. The opener sets the tone rising slowly into being from a sort of meditative silence back into which it continually threatens to evaporate. It drifts like a ghost ship off the furthermost northern coast, with flugelhorns peeling subdued through the fog of indistinction and a harmonium droning in a faint echo of Shetland folk music. The odd burst of radio crackle is suggestive of the last blast of modern electrical equipment or communication with dry land finally petering out.

[Scott Free]

Oh, I like that.

[Lori]

Yeah.

[Scott Free]

Thing is this sonic, atmospheric, ambient space then with this jazz band in it, like it invites poetry to describe it. It is evocative and emotional and, yeah, it just brings something out of you. 58 seconds in, mark Hollis's distinctive voice comes in. It's all earnestness and vulnerability. He's got that trademark quiver like it's vibrato, but it's more emotional than just a classical vibrato. It's, yeah, a quiver, really. And then just when you think, okay, this is like a jazzy dirge, everything makes sense in a Tom Waits, broken down, traveling, jazzy carnival sort of way. At a minute 56, there's just this short burst of noise. It's clipped so that there's no attack, there's no decay. It's just a burst that stops exactly like it started. It's jarring and is messing with you, but just to keep you from getting comfortable. Right.

[Lori]

Yeah, I think that would be my takeaway. And the first time I heard it, I actually thought there was something wrong with my. My audio equipment because I was not expecting that.

[Scott Free]

Yeah.

[Lori]

The lyrics on this place. My chair at the back room door Help me up I can't wait anymore. Blessed love the love I've seen Stare by idle stare Faith one path and the second in fear Stare down a half wit I am red Stare down. There's kind of that double meaning he's talking about the steps. Stare S T A I R then stare down. But I'm interpreting this as suicide. That this is a man getting ready to hang himself.

[Scott Free]

Interesting.

[Lori]

Well, and then this is going to lead us to why I think that this is a concept album. Because the whole album, the six songs, starts with this. Yeah. Like, like I said, I think it's a suicide. But then we're going to see what happens after the protagonist dies.

[Scott Free]

Oh, fascinating.

[Lori]

Yeah.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. Dang, dude.

[Lori]

Yeah, well, and that's, that's why I was saying, you know, it's like the first few times I listened to it, I thought, oh, this is nice. I mean, because I like jazz. You know, I love Coltrane and has.

[Scott Free]

Miles Davis stuff happening with the horns, for sure.

[Lori]

Yeah, yeah. And. And Ramsey Lewis is another one of my favorites too, you know, with the. The piano and stuff. But then, like I said to you, I think over the weekend, when I started actually honing in on these lyrics.

[Scott Free]

Yeah.

[Lori]

When I'm like, oh, my gosh. I mean, there's something really deep and profound happening with those lyrics. And at some places, the vocal is so low that you almost can't even hear it unless you really, really focus. You know, like you mentioned earlier on headphones.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. And even then, sometimes it's intentionally covered by noise or instrumentation or his voice breaks as it does sometimes. And the final line of Merman, which I think is a great way to get to the next track. Step right up. Something's happening here. And then that soft, chugging, rhythmic room noise amplifier buzz, whatever it is, takes you out to that next song. And that next song is Ascension.

[Unknown Speaker]

Gets harder to farewell. Mother wants you in the bathroom.

[Lori]

Wow.

[Scott Free]

Okay, so first off, this song is in seven, eight Time, which, as we have established in the more complex albums we have done to date, is I am always a sucker for seven, eight Time. That's just always going to work for me.

[Lori]

Well, and that's also a very common jazz beat. And this whole song, you know, with the acoustic bass, the electric piano. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned Coltrane earlier. This one. Really? I can see that influence there.

[Scott Free]

Yeah.

[Lori]

That guy David Stubbs again, that I quoted earlier.

[Scott Free]

Sure.

[Lori]

One sentence that I think just sums this up perfectly. We're located somewhere beyond jazz, beyond rock.

[Scott Free]

This is its own animal. That said. Yeah. It's in seven, eight, which is weird, but not unheard of in rock. Structurally, lyrically, this song, Ascension Day, is actually pretty close to being a more traditional rock song. The closest we come on Laughingstock to a traditional rock song. It's got your verse, chorus, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, guitar solo, structure. Even if that guitar solo is mostly just one note. Yeah.

[Lori]

All right, well, so within that verse, chorus, verse, structure.

[Scott Free]

Yes.

[Lori]

Very first line that he sings. Bet I'll be damned. Oh, so he has succeeded in killing himself. And now is God going to punish me? And then in the second verse, weighted by my hand, kill the. Bet I'll burn on judgment day.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lori]

Okay, so now you. You kind of follow where I'm going with this. You know where I say that this is a concept album. And then. And then there's that guitar at the very end, that's very off tempo. And it kind of. It starts building kind of this chaos, Right. And then suddenly cuts off at the exact six minute mark.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. And it says it. It is not like a cold ending where they hit a note and it cuts off. It cuts off as if the tape broke. Like the song just ends.

[Lori]

Right, right. And again, you know, to me that's. That's death. Right. It just. Boom, it's over.

[Scott Free]

Fascinating. Blowing my mind here, Larry. You're blowing my mind.

[Lori]

Oh, okay. Well, so that's going to lead us to the next track. But do you have anything else about Ascension Day?

[Scott Free]

Well, just a great quote about it that kind of talks, summarizes a lot of what we've said. So Jesse Harville of Pitchfork described it like a small jazz combo being elbowed aside by a noise rock band with a climactic barrage of drumming that falls on your ears like an avalanche before the audible tape slice cuts it dead.

[Lori]

There you go. Cuts it dead.

[Scott Free]

All right, perfect. You're onto something there.

[Lori]

So then that leads us to track three. Track three, after the Flood.

[Unknown Speaker]

Shake my head do my best to fall.

[Scott Free]

Right after the Flood Strap in. This is a long one coming in at 9 minutes and 38 seconds. It starts out normal, even beautiful enough. There's lilting piano, an organ comes in, some harmonica guitar. The drums come in with a very straightforward 44 backbeat. And then a Hammond B3 organ again, as we've talked about, say in the Charlatans. Freaking love a Hammond B3 organ. And it builds and there's textures. And of course, once again you've got Hollis's voice. And then at 4 minutes and 2 seconds, the screeching begins. It's so good. God. Like when they talk about Mark Hollis outside of the studio and how he was a Prankster. Like that solo that begins at 4 minutes and 2 seconds. He was at Prankster in the studio as well. And you can't tell me that he was not trying to be funny. I have a great quote, actually, about that noise solo that happens. Just allow me one moment. Right, so in mojo magazine in March 2006, they did an interview with Tim Freese Green. Four minutes into the song after the Flood. Here is the quote. Four minutes into the song, after the flood, a 75 second gap awaited a solo. Hollis reached for the Verifon, a German breath controlled synthesizer which made Talk Talk's distinctive brass banshee distressed elephant sounds. They were the most unreliable machines ever made. Notes Tim, originally Mark had a part for the solo, which spanned the whole section and was just two notes, he played it through a very large amplifier, and the Verifon was clearly malfunctioning, jumping between octaves randomly and producing all sorts of internal feedback. We listened back to it and thought, this is too much, and stripped it down to one note. That was the only possible solo that could go there. I was out in the studio tweaking the amplifier, and I heard this one note roaring back through the amp. And I remember thinking, this is the end. This is as far as we can go. After one note, there's no notes. This will be the last album we make.

[Lori]

Oh, wow. Right now I have a quote that's related to that.

[Scott Free]

Lay it on me.

[Lori]

Okay. All right. So this is actually from Mark Hollis, right? You're just talking about one note, but you feel the note. That's what's important for me. And Freeze Green. I would say that it is, without question the best solo that we've ever got together.

[Scott Free]

So good.

[Lori]

Just. Cause like I say, one note, that's it. You just hit it hard.

[Scott Free]

Oh, man. Yeah. He wasn't even joking. I guess he just meant it like, it's so. It's just tweaking you, man. Just like. Yeah. It's like a poke at a finger in your ear over and over.

[Lori]

Yeah, well. And you know engineer Phil Brown, who you mentioned earlier, I believe he has stated that after the Flood is, quote, probably the best engineering for me in the past 40 years.

[Scott Free]

Well, dang.

[Lori]

And the man is like a career legend.

[Scott Free]

Yeah.

[Lori]

This one song just kind of stuck with him.

[Scott Free]

Right on.

[Lori]

Yeah. All right, so I got a little bit more here.

[Scott Free]

Please continue to blow my mind with the lyrics.

[Lori]

Okay. All right. Well, we're continuing with that biblical theme again, aren't we? I mean, after the flood, obviously, that's another reference to Genesis. Catastrophe has happened. And if you listen to the lyrics, the end of the first verse, drown and drown Sleight of reason how they come Cain in number Cain is in.

[Scott Free]

Cain and Abel C, A, I, N. Yeah.

[Lori]

Yes. And then the second verse parallels that. Within and without sighted weeded how they run Slain in number so this is the wrath of God. This is God pouring down judgment. How they run the people are running because there's, you know, this flood, this storm, catastrophe. And they all die.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. And then the chorus, because the chorus does repeat, Shake my head, Turn my face to the floor Dead to respect to respect to be born Lest we.

[Lori]

Forget who lay we'll come back to that. To respect to be born we'll come back to that in the next song.

[Scott Free]

But you have connected the dots. Dang.

[Lori]

See, I did my homework, Professor.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, you did.

[Lori]

So I have another quotation from David Stubbs again. And man, I never read anything by this guy before, but he's got such a good way with words that like I, I, I probably over quoting him, but it's just so beautiful. He talks about this song whose swelling organ driven pulse is a thing of simple but ominous beauty. With Hollis's vocals rising off its surfaces like mist off water.

[Scott Free]

Hey.

[Lori]

Again the mood of the song intensifies, refusing solace naturally broken up by an agonized distorted guitar solo and guitar solos in quotes running like a scratch through the track, sounding like a Morse distress signal obliterated in its own crackle. So again we've got that destruction on a global scale, the distress signal and then it's obliterated. Wow, isn't that gorgeous?

[Scott Free]

Is, yeah. The album invites poetry.

[Lori]

I'm telling you, I'm really having a new appreciation now for Mark Hollis as a songwriter. I mean I've always really liked the songs that I'd heard, but this is some next level shit here.

[Scott Free]

Oh yeah, there are theses written about this, I guarantee you. Now the song is, as I mentioned at the beginning, 9 minutes 38. And it does have a long slow fade out which as we've talked about in previous episodes, I usually will turn my nose up at a fade out, but in this case I'll forgive it because I do not know how the hell else you end this one. That brings us then to track four. Taphead.

[Unknown Speaker]

Do you know, you know, you know you dying with world around the wonder cloud.

[Scott Free]

Like again, sometimes he is just messing with you or you know, doing something to get you to lean in. The track starts with 4 seconds of distant guitar noodling and then cuts off into complete silence. And then the song begins once again, just sort of making you perk up your ears with very quiet sounds. And then cutting it off now that he has your attention. Song begins with a contemplative guitar line that could be metal era, Pink Floyd, David Gilmore. And then Hollis's voice right in your ear, but quiet and distant and tremoring again. That vulnerability in his voice is something that you can't fake. It's just so Mark Hollis.

[Lori]

Yeah, so the very beginning. Do you die in sin? Born again with will to wind and wander Climb through needle neck to consent. Remember what I said in the previous track about. I don't even remember what I said. Hang on, it's like Dory from Fighting Nemo. Oh, no. What you had said about dead. To respect. To respect. To be born.

[Scott Free]

I say a lot of things.

[Lori]

You do. And every once in a while I actually listen to you.

[Scott Free]

Right.

[Lori]

Do you die in sin? Born again. So we have apparent suicide in track one. We have the global destruction of the deluge. And now we're talking about a possible rebirth. Then after that very nice vocal intro, David Stubbs again, before a brace of shill horns and harmonica blasts arise, all squealing and agitated like whales aroused from their slumber and communicating anxiously with one another in song.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, like I described it myself, like, at the 220 mark, this cacophonous jazz calliope, but it also sounds like contemporary classical. And album is all over the board, but, like, in a really restrained way. And it's all these contradictions and it does musical jump scares, like huge blasts of trumpet and flute and I don't even know what the instruments are sometimes, but, like, it's quiet and then it comes at you and it builds and.

[Lori]

Yeah, well, that's all I got for Taphead.

[Scott Free]

Well, all right then. I think that brings us to track five.

[Lori]

We're going to build on this idea of rebirth again. This is called New Grass.

[Scott Free]

This one starts out sounding like hope.

[Lori]

Yes.

[Scott Free]

Like a spring day after everything that came before it, that can get dark. This one has a bright, hopeful feel to it.

[Lori]

So are you familiar with the website genius.com? it's primarily a music lyrics website.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Lori]

Okay.

[Scott Free]

Reference it occasionally.

[Lori]

Yeah. Well, sometimes visitors to the site weigh in on different tracks and somebody wrote this on the entry for New Grass and unfortunately I couldn't find who the author was, but I thought this was really well written. New Grass is the emotional centerpiece to which Talk Talk's final masterpiece, Laughing Stock, is leading up to. Thematically, the title suggests a fresh start after the flood. Mark Hollis continues to fill the story with biblical themes, and here he's yearning for heaven to arrive. He seeks the resolution after his long suffering that is described throughout the entire album, with the death theme always being central. Most importantly, he's finally hopeful.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, I mean, I said hopeful, so I feel like I nailed that.

[Lori]

You did, yes. No, and I. I agree with you on that. Yeah. And. And man, these biblical themes, the lyrics, seven sacraments to song. Versed in Christ, should strength desert me. So, you know, the seven sacraments and then that part versed in Christ, should strength desert me. In other words, that's that whole. The Lord is my shepherd. Thing. Right. You know, where he'll be my strength, he'll be my rock. Really, really interesting, because I never would have pegged Mark Hollis for, you know, being, I guess, this religious.

[Scott Free]

Yeah.

[Lori]

You know, I mean, I didn't see this coming.

[Scott Free]

No. Now, I will say, like, I've heard the album enough times that I would think that this would not be coming as a surprise to me. But in the context of this album where it's this jazz, experimental rock arrangements, his voice just sort of becomes another sonic texture, another instrument. So I guess I just wasn't paying attention to it, or at least to what the words were that he was saying. But everything you're talking about is not even particularly under the surface, that you have to dig for the subtext. It's the text.

[Lori]

What do you think? Are you now on board with the idea of this as a concept album?

[Scott Free]

I am certainly seeing the themes through it. Whether it is a concept album in the rock opera, there is a strict narrative through it. I'm gonna. I'm gonna reserve judgment, but.

[Lori]

Okay, that's fair.

[Scott Free]

Let's see what we've got.

[Lori]

That's fair. You know, something that you might appreciate, because I know you're a Radiohead fan. Indeed, that syncopated drum groove from this song.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. Okay.

[Lori]

So that was sampled by Uncle, a band called uncle, for their collaboration with Tom York called Rabbit in youn Headlights.

[Scott Free]

Interesting. Yeah, yeah. It's a six, eight drum beat. Like, it's a weird six, eight. And I've read a little bit about drummers talking about trying to cover it. And it is the opening and closing of the hi Hat that makes it difficult to follow as 6, 8. But it's a 6, 8 drum beat. And again, you know, another very common jazz time signature, but done in a way that is very distinct and challenging.

[Lori]

That's a good word.

[Scott Free]

Oh, yeah. This album doesn't make it easy on you, but it does reward you for the listen.

[Lori]

Yes.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, it's the long one, too, coming in at 9 minutes and 40 seconds. Yeah, that's a. That's an epic track. All right. On the title, Newgrass from the Laura Snapes interviews in the Guardian entitled Musicians on Mark Hollis, Author Richard King said this new Grass shares its title with an album by Albert Ehler. Laughing Stock was released on Verve, a company that had, in part, appealed to Mark and his remaining bandmates due to the label's association with jazz. So it was a Verve album. And whether they named it after that or just enjoyed the association with it, I'll Leave it to you.

[Lori]

This was one of the singles off of the album. And you know, you mentioned earlier how Mark Hollis was not thinking commercially. No radio station is going to play a 9 minute and 40 second song.

[Scott Free]

You ain't getting radio play with that. It's not getting played on VH1. And Mark Hollis did not care at all.

[Lori]

No. Artistic integrity was very important to him indeed. And from what I understand, he was very much a perfectionist, as you kind of alluded to when you were talking about making the drummer play the same bit over and over as you alluded to earlier. Yes. Lee Harris. Yeah.

[Scott Free]

All right, so that gets us to the sixth and final track on the album. And I was really hoping you were going to pick the evens, not the odds, because hell if I know how to pronounce it. Root. Nee. It's like. It's like Pompeii. R, U, N, E, I, I. Yeah.

[Lori]

Rune. Like Pompeii. As you.

[Scott Free]

That.

[Lori]

That. That's probably better than I would have done. But then I've also seen it written as rune and then a Roman numeral ii.

[Scott Free]

Oh, interesting.

[Lori]

Yeah. I actually tried to look that word up and I think it was freedictionary.com claims that it's a synonym for laughing stock, but I suspect that it's actually a made up word and that later on that definition became attached to it. But enough, enough talking about the title. Should we play it?

[Scott Free]

Here we go.

[Lori]

All.

[Unknown Speaker]

RA Slow the bleed.

[Scott Free]

All right, so this track of any on this album sounds the most like the post rock that will come after it. Or rather a whole lot of post rock that was made after this album aspires to be this song. In particular, I am looking in your direction. Godspeed, you, Black Emperor and LE Bradford. But we'll get to them. And it's like almost elegiac. That's not quite it. But like it's so spare in such a big space and with every note reverberating off into the distance. Big distant space. Makes it feel lonely. I don't know. That has a contemplative, quiet, melancholy to it. It feels like mourning. And I mean as in to mourn or very late at night. Morning.

[Lori]

Yeah. You know, you mentioned earlier an interview that Markhalis did with John Pidgeon.

[Scott Free]

Yeah.

[Lori]

And that's where. And I think you might have even used this exact quote. The silence is above everything. And I would rather hear one note than I would two. And I would rather hear silence than I would one note.

[Scott Free]

Yeah.

[Lori]

And I think that that helps explain the huge amounts of space in this track. Again, keeping the theme of the album. Right. So we've gone from suicide, ascension, destruction, and then the rebirth of the previous track. This track, we've shifted the narrator. The narrator is now God.

[Scott Free]

Oh.

[Lori]

This is God's perspective and his final judgment on this protagonist. And it ends with him giving the man his blessing. And what's the line? Low to bleed, fair son. Rescinded. That one word. Rescinded. Whatever punishment this man would have received has been rescinded because, you know, he's been forgiven. He's been reborn. I. I read on genius.com the man may have left the world a laughingstock, but from this, God's eyes, modesty and humility are the most important traits there are. This is deep.

[Scott Free]

Yeah.

[Lori]

One other comment worth mentioning, and it's kind of anticlimactic after that. You know how the opening track, Merman, alludes to Mirror man?

[Scott Free]

Indeed.

[Lori]

It's been pointed out that hearkens back to another early talk talk song called Renee.

[Scott Free]

Oh, and Renee is the track off of It's My Life that you can hear the seeds for this entire album in it. It is the outlier in that new romantic album that is a slow Wyatt. It's a love song, I believe, to Renee, but it isn't anything like anything else on the album. And it's a lot more like what you hear here.

[Lori]

Yeah. So. Wow. Scott. I was not expecting this kind of an emotional journey from six songs. I mean, this album's pretty intense.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. I mean, they. Those songs can be epic individually, but together it is a big arc. And. Yeah, it takes you on an emotional journey.

[Lori]

Very biblical in nature.

[Scott Free]

Indeed.

[Lori]

Yes. So normally we would do a Where are they Now? Except for the fact that we already know that, unfortunately, Mark Hollis passed away in February of 2019.

[Scott Free]

Indeed. But the legacy that he left behind is huge, as I've already alluded to at the beginning, the musicians who revered his work, it's a long list. But as importantly, this album in particular and Spirit of Eden are credited with being perhaps the first albums of the genre, post rock. And it is worth getting into that briefly. I know we've been taking you on a long journey already, but a little bit about what that even means and who among the bands that create music in the post rock genre, what they thought about Laughingstock, what they thought about Mark Hollis and what influence they drew from him. So first off, what the hell is post rock? I think in saying that this is among the first albums of that genre, if not the first, along with Spirit of Eden before it. It is music using the instrumentation of rock, using that instrumental language, but doing it in a way that eschews traditional song structure. The closest we came to that on Laughingstock was track two, Ascension Day, but even that messed around with it and did it in an unconventional way with the 78 time and whatnot. It no longer, if you are a post rock practitioner, are you married to that. Intro, verse, pre chorus, chorus, verse, pre chorus, chorus, guitar solo, bridge, chorus, outro format. It becomes much more about textures and layering and meandering. You can just introduce a theme, explore that theme and play with variations on it. But it doesn't have to do it in that traditional song structure way. It's experimental and there kind of are no rules except to make it follow its own internal logic. And again, lyrically, you've been analyzing the lyrics throughout this, and kudos, by the way. Many of the people who followed in Talk Talk's footsteps kind of did away with the lyrics entirely or use the voice as an instrument, or sometimes just made instrumental music and went for a more ambient, textural thing. But Mark Hollis was a lyricist and very distinctive vocalist, and so for this album and all of his stuff lyrics it is. But you don't expect, for the most part, those verses and choruses. Not on this album anyways. Mark Hollis was saying what he wanted and exploring big themes and convention be damned and record company commercial considerations be fully damned. I did read a great line that described post rock's lyrical conventions, and that is painting a picture with emotions. As the prefix makes clear, post rock contains a sense of an ending, a feeling that rock as we know it is over. We can't go back even if we wanted to, and pretending otherwise would be insincere. Post rock is certainly sincere, often to the point of being embarrassingly earnest. Post rock wears its heart on its sleeve, but then scribbles over the evidence and mumbles an excuse not to tell you what it's really thinking right over my head. All right, well, here's a few that I think will work maybe a little better. Peter Brewis, interviewed by Laura Snapes in Musicians on Mark Hollis Mark Hollis was an essential part of that long line of music makers Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, Robert Wyatt Hand who seemed to thrive on that search and in the process learned the boundaries between pop, rock, jazz and classical. To us, his experiments seemed to be one of dynamics and form rather than timber or technology, seeing what new things can be done with traditional instruments and not in a flashy way but quietly to the point of secrecy. And maybe it is that which still demands our attention. It was brave and that was hugely important to us. So, you know, we've talked a little bit about, or I talked a little bit at the beginning about some of the artists who revered Mark Hollis and Talk Talk, St. Vincent, Underworld, but the list is long, including the 1975 blur, Vampire Weekend, Bon Iver, Slow Dive, Explosions in the Sky, Seager Rose, Mogwai. I talked. I did reference Labrad and Godspeed, you Black Emperor. Earlier. Tortoise, Chicago band. We always find a Chicago connection. Tortoise, definitely a post rock band. And Radiohead. Without Talk Talk, you don't really get Radio head. And as we talked about earlier, this album, Laughingstock, within Talk Talk's catalog is as much a turning point and an experimental left turn as Radiohead's Kid A was in theirs. And I know that you, Laurie, are not maybe the biggest Radiohead fan, but you, as we have talked about this, have said that you haven't really listened to Kid A. And then.

[Lori]

Right.

[Scott Free]

I would argue then that you don't know Radiohead at all, because that changed things in a radical way. And I really got to recommend it and it does have its roots in this album.

[Lori]

Well, I will try to keep an open mind.

[Scott Free]

Please do.

[Lori]

Okay. This album was, I believe, Talk Talk's least commercially successful album. However, Pitchfork magazine played placed it at number 11 on their top 100 albums of the 1990s.

[Scott Free]

Absolutely right.

[Lori]

So, Scott, since you are newish to.

[Scott Free]

This podcast, what have I been doing it six months?

[Lori]

Boy, it's October. Eight months.

[Scott Free]

Wow.

[Lori]

Yeah.

[Scott Free]

Still the new guy.

[Lori]

Yeah. I get a friend who was joking when I mentioned that I'm my third co host. You're chewing them up and spitting them out is what he said.

[Scott Free]

Like you're going through husbands.

[Lori]

Thanks, Scott. Thanks. Yeah, three co hosts, three husbands. Thanks, Scott. Anyway, okay, so our. Our next episode is going to come out on November 9th, which is my birthday. So we have a tradition that I get to pick the album when it's my birthday.

[Scott Free]

And what have you chosen?

[Lori]

Well, I think we're going to have a tonal shift here.

[Scott Free]

Oh, yeah.

[Lori]

Chicago Legends, Material Issue with their album International Pop Overthrow.

[Scott Free]

Oh, wow. Anyone who is listening to these episodes in sequence back to back is going to get whiplash. Going from Talk Talk Laughing stock to Material Issue International Pop Overthrow. But it'll be a nice palate cleanser.

[Lori]

There you go. There you go.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, no, it's a. If you want fun but sad power pop songs about girls doing a guy wrong. Jim Ellison is your guy, and Material Issue is your band.

[Lori]

Here you go. You know, so we'll be back in two weeks with a little bit of international pop overthrow.

[Scott Free]

Looking forward to it.

[Lori]

Yes. Thank you so much for listening. It's a goodbye from me.

[Scott Free]

And from me.