Episode 54: Material Issue’s “International Pop Overthrow” (1991)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Accelerated Culture – Episode 54: Material Issue’s “International Pop Overthrow” (1991)

Introduction

In Episode 54 of the Accelerated Culture podcast, hosts Lori and Scott Free dive deep into the 1991 debut album, International Pop Overthrow by the Chicago-based band Material Issue. Recognized as a nominee for the 2024 Webby Awards for Best Indie Podcast, Accelerated Culture explores pivotal moments in alternative music history, with this episode shedding light on a band often overlooked outside their hometown.

Setting the Stage: Chicago’s Music Scene in 1991

The episode begins with an overview of the early 1990s Chicago music landscape—a period marked by the burgeoning alternative scene amidst the dominant grunge movement spearheaded by Seattle bands like Nirvana and Pearl Jam. Chicago was emerging as a new hotbed for rock, fostering diverse genres ranging from jazz-influenced post-rock to power pop. Key contemporaries mentioned include the Smashing Pumpkins, Urge Overkill, Tortoise, and Veruca Salt, highlighting a vibrant and eclectic musical environment.

“1991 gave us Nirvana's Nevermind, which we already have done a deep dive on. It also gave us Pearl Jam's Ten. But Chicago was starting to make its own waves,” Scott Free explains (04:03).

The Rise of Material Issue

Material Issue, formed in 1986 by Jim Ellison and Ted Ansani at Columbia College, Chicago, quickly became a pivotal player in the local scene. Their name originated from a simple work-related term—material issue—reflecting Ellison’s background in installing security devices.

“When they needed to get the materials for a work order for a job site, the form was called a material issue. I guess that's where they got the name of the band from,” Lori shares (11:13).

The band’s tight trio—Ellison’s vision, Ansani’s bass lines, and drummer Mike Zelenko’s energetic rhythms—captured the essence of power pop, characterized by melodic hooks and energetic performances. Their early success included a self-released EP in 1987 and increased attention after their track "16 Tambourines" won a poll by the CMJ New Music Report Journal (13:10).

Deep Dive: International Pop Overthrow

The core of the episode revolves around the track-by-track analysis of International Pop Overthrow. Lori and Scott dissect each song, exploring lyrical themes of unrequited love, personal struggles, and the band's relentless pursuit of success.

1. Valerie Loves Me (00:00–27:04)

   The opening track, "Valerie Loves Me," stands out as a quintessential power pop anthem. The hosts highlight its catchy melody and bittersweet lyrics about unrequited love.

   “Valerie's dancing on the room above my bed... I would give my whole life to her,” Lori recites the poignant lyrics, emphasizing the song’s duality of sweetness intertwined with longing (23:18).

   Scott adds, “I have to give it to it [Valerie Loves Me]. It is just such a perfect pop song,” underscoring the track’s enduring appeal (80:48).

2. Diane (30:00–32:23)

   "Diane" explores darker themes, possibly reflecting Ellison’s personal experiences, such as his relationship with his babysitter. The song’s narrative takes a haunting turn, revealing the complexity beneath the band’s upbeat exterior.

   “Diane's got everything... Diane, Diane, Diane...” Lori notes the juxtaposition of catchy choruses with unsettling lyrics (32:23).

3. This Letter (38:59–42:18)

   A departure from the love-centric tracks, "This Letter" delves into introspection and emotional turmoil.

   “I’d like to tell you how much I love you but spoiler alert, I don't love you anymore,” Scott points out the lyrical twist that adds depth to the song’s narrative (41:56).

4. International Pop Overthrow (50:22–54:36)

   The title track encapsulates the band’s ambition and their aspiration to transcend local fame.

   “I was riding around with the radio up... It’s an international pop overthrow,” Lori describes the song’s vibrant energy and its thematic focus on musical ambition (51:44).

Production and Musical Style

Produced by Jeff Murphy at Short Order Recorder Studio in Zion, Illinois, the album exhibits polished power pop with jangly guitars and infectious hooks. The hosts commend Murphy’s role in refining the band’s sound, allowing Ellison’s vision to flourish.

“They were making some incredibly polished, tight power pop. And oftentimes it really didn't need much after that,” Lori praises the production quality (18:07).

Legacy and Impact

Despite gaining substantial local acclaim and a loyal fanbase, Material Issue faced challenges in achieving broader commercial success. Their subsequent albums, Destination Universe (1992) and Freak City Soundtrack (1995), saw varying degrees of success but didn't replicate the impact of their debut. The tragic death of Jim Ellison in 1996, ruled a suicide, cast a shadow over the band’s legacy.

“Between that and breakup, in June of 1996, Jim Ellison became despondent and was found dead in his garage of carbon monoxide poisoning,” Scott narrates the heartbreaking conclusion to the band’s journey (77:45).

Ellison’s legacy persists, influencing artists like Canada’s Tragically Hip, who penned "Escape Is At Hand for the Traveling Man" in honor of Ellison (79:18).

Closing Reflections

As the episode wraps up, Lori and Scott share their favorite tracks from the album, with Lori favoring "Valerie Loves Me" for its perfection in pop songwriting, and Scott opting for "This Far Before" due to its engaging melody (80:48).

Looking ahead, the hosts tease the next episode focusing on U2’s 1991 album, Achtung Baby, promising a shift to a globally renowned work that marked a significant evolution in alternative music (81:24).

Notable Quotes

• “As a record producer, you dream about finding a band that the minute you walk into the studio starts to play and you go, holy fuck, this is real.” — Mike Chapman, quoted by Scott (18:07).

• “Their music lived in the realm of girls, cars and hanging out with girls in cars. They sounded instantly familiar, yet slightly wild.” — Ariel Borden, Pitchfork review, cited by Lori (22:00).

• “I think they were genre based ones,” — Lori on potential future episodes (50:06).

Conclusion

Episode 54 of Accelerated Culture offers an in-depth exploration of Material Issue’s International Pop Overthrow, celebrating the band’s contribution to power pop and alternative music. Through detailed track analyses, historical context, and personal reflections, Lori and Scott illuminate the enduring legacy of Material Issue, ensuring that their passionate pursuit of pure pop is remembered and appreciated by new audiences.

Listen to the full episode at AcceleratedCulturePodcast.com.

Transcript

[Lori]

This episode deals with issues of suicide and more sensitive listeners or ones struggling with mental health crises should take that into consideration before going forward with the episode.

[Scott Free]

Welcome to the Accelerated Culture Podcast. A sonic journey through the vibrant and revolutionary sounds of the 1980s and 1990s. And now 2024 Webby Honoree for best Indie Podcast. I'm Lori, along with my co host, Scott Free, and in this podcast we explore how new waves stormed the airwaves in the early 80s and gave way for the rise of alternative music in the 90s. Find us on the [e-mail] hello and welcome back to the Accelerated Culture Podcast.

[Lori]

I'm Lori and I am Scott Free. Welcome back.

[Scott Free]

So, Scott, today is a very special day.

[Lori]

Is it now?

[Scott Free]

Oh, it is.

[Lori]

Laurie.

[Scott Free]

Thank you. Thank you. What do you think? I got a micron that says Birthday Queen. What do you think?

[Lori]

You sure do. More of a sparkly tiara. And it does suit you. It does say Birthday Queen, doesn't it?

[Scott Free]

It does, yeah.

[Lori]

Good luck for you.

[Scott Free]

Well, thank you. Thank you. I've always said I needed a crown, so.

[Lori]

Well, you haven't had a crown this whole time.

[Scott Free]

No, I haven't.

[Lori]

I just assumed that you wore it around the house and made your husband Don and the cats kneel down before you. Happy birthday, Laurie. Lots of love from Tim and in Excess, the band. Happy birthday, Though.

[Scott Free]

I guess. Some other news, Scott. Quincy Jones has passed away at the age of 91.

[Lori]

He has. It is very sad. Although 91 is a good long run and, man, did that guy have a good life and just the most phenomenally successful career one could possibly hope for.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, I mean, everything he touched turned to gold pretty much. I knew him primarily from, like, Michael Jackson. I mean, did we all. I don't know if you knew this, Scott, but the first record I ever bought with my own money was Thriller.

[Lori]

That's a fine album.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. I was actually surprised, though. I did not realize that he had worked with Frank Sinatra, Fly Me to the Moon. That was his work.

[Lori]

Yeah. And everybody knows him from the artists that he produced and made into megastars. But among my favorite songs by him is an actual Quincy Jones song, Soul Boss Inova, which you may know as that kind of groovy big band song used in Austin Powers, which was also sampled in the golden age of hip hop and was made the primary hook of my definition of a boombastic jazz style by the Dream warriors, which is a banger.

[Scott Free]

Okay, well, you had me at Austin Powers.

[Lori]

Don't sleep on the Dream warriors, though. Oh, oh. See what I did there? Nice.

[Scott Free]

Oh, we are in rare form today, aren't we?

[Lori]

How about it?

[Scott Free]

Yeah. On a happier note, Scott, have you seen any good shows lately?

[Lori]

I have seen one very good show since last I saw you. The Thought Matt Johnson on the Insoulment Tour. It took place at the Salt Shed and it was. It's unusual. Ensoulment is the. The first album in 25 years. And while usually people go and see nostalgia acts for the old hits, the Duh made it very clear in publicizing this show that they were going to be playing the new album in its entirety. The first set was insolent front to back, and then the second set, he did deliver on a career retrospective of some great, great music. He's a fantastic musician. His voice is just amazing, and that show was a lot of fun.

[Scott Free]

Oh, cool. I'm so glad that you. You got to go. I know how big a fan you are.

[Lori]

I am and have been since age 12.

[Scott Free]

Awesome. One other bit of good news before we get into the episode. I don't know if you happen to see, Scott, but earlier this week, we hit 50,000 dol. Thousand downloads for the podcast.

[Lori]

And I recall relatively recently on the Accelerated Culture page, that you were publicizing that we had just hit the milestone of 20,000 downloads.

[Scott Free]

Correct.

[Lori]

In the first couple years of the podcast, hit 20,000 and then in the following month rocketed to 50,000.

[Scott Free]

Yes. Isn't that amazing?

[Lori]

It is, you know, well deserved. It's a fine, fine show you've put together. I've added something to it. Mostly tangents and asides, but I don't know. Go us.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. Here's to the next 50,000. Cheers.

[Lori]

Here we go. Well, thank you, Accelerated Culture warriors, for listening. And stick with us. It's. It's going to get even better.

[Scott Free]

It definitely will. And if you like what we're doing, you want to show us a little bit of love. Acceleratedculturepodcast.com and there's a link. You can become a patreon subscriber for $5 a month, and we'll let you pick a topic of a future episode, so.

[Lori]

That is crazy. That is crazy. That that only costs $5. That's bananas.

[Scott Free]

Such a deal. All right, well, Scott, you were kind enough to allow me, the birthday girl, to choose today's episode.

[Lori]

And a fine episode it's going to be.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, I think so. A lot of people I've talked to actually haven't heard of this band if they're not from Chicago. Which is really a shame because they were a fantastic band. Chicago legends, Material issue and their 1991 debut album, I'll Debut on a major label anyway, International Pop Overthrow.

[Lori]

I believe it's pronounced International Pop Over.

[Scott Free]

Actually, that's in my notes.

[Lori]

It's so funny. But we'll get to that during the Track By Track listening party.

[Scott Free]

Scott, you and I both independently of each other this weekend. We both watched the documentary film out of the Material Issue story.

[Lori]

Yes. Directed by Balin Schneider.

[Scott Free]

There really isn't a lot of information about some of this stuff available on the web.

[Lori]

This took a little more digging than some of the really big albums that we have hit.

[Scott Free]

Right.

[Lori]

But you know, there's a little bit out there, particularly because, well, spoiler alert. In 1996, material issue, lead songwriter, lead guitarist and lead vocalist Jim Ellison took his own life. And as is often the case in the wake of the passing of an artist, there was a massive outpouring of grief and tributes. So in the context of that, you can find some information about the band. But the documentary you mentioned, out of Time, the material issue story 2021 film, is a really rich source. They go deep and oh man, it is heartbreaking, but inspiring until it's heartbreaking. That said, there is some out there, particularly because, well, 1991 was 30 some years ago. There have been some current music journalists who have taken the big anniversary opportunity to look back and review this album in particular. But I suppose we should set the stage and talk a little bit about what was going on in music and in Chicago in particular in 1991. 1991 gave us Nirvana's Nevermind, which we already have done a deep dive on. It also gave us Pearl Jam's 10 and, you know, Seattle gave us a lot. But Chicago was, after a long period of being totally overshadowed by Seattle, by 1991, things were starting to happen in Chicago and some bands were really starting to make some waves of their own. They were not in the grunge style. The closest we came was very early Smashing Pumpkins, which some kind of lumped in with that. But I think they were a maybe grunge art rock or something like that. You also had Urge Overkill producing some power pop. Tortoise starting to make waves with almost jazz like post rock, as well as Wax tracks and Touch and Go records really starting to come up.

[Scott Free]

Don't forget Veruca Salt.

[Lori]

Oh, I Could Never.

[Scott Free]

And Liz Fair, of course. Yes.

[Lori]

Yeah, yeah. And it's in this context with Chicago starting to get the nation's attention as a new hotbed of rock music, that Jim Ellison and Material Issue really come to the fore for a brief and brilliant moment in this week's album, International Top Overthrow.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, so Jim Ellison went to school here in Chicago at Columbia College and he happened to meet a guy named Ted Ansani who happened to play bass. And the two, you know, kind of bonded and decided that they were going to start this band together.

[Lori]

Funny note that comes out of the out of Time documentary is the reason that they met is because they noticed each other in the halls of Columbia College because they were both wearing leather jackets, which is just a hilarious reason to meet someone.

[Scott Free]

So that would have been 86.

[Lori]

Yeah.

[Scott Free]

So in that film that we mentioned, out of Time, Ted talks about how they came up with the name Material issue. So at the time Jim was working at a firm that installed security devices.

[Lori]

Right.

[Scott Free]

And when they needed to get the materials for a work order for a job site, the form was called a material issue. I guess that's where they got the name of the band from.

[Lori]

Yeah, it's a can't see name.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, they found their drummer, Mike Zelenko through an ad in the Illinois Entertainer magazine. Basically it said drummer looking for a band. And he listed his influences as the Buzzcocks, Tom Petty, the Replacements and the Beatles.

[Lori]

Be strong influences, pretty strong.

[Scott Free]

And also seemingly unrelated. The Buzzcocks and the Beatles. I mean I guess they're British.

[Lori]

Tom Petty and who is the other? The Replacements.

[Scott Free]

The Replacement. The Replacements. I get the Replacements. I could see the similarity but you.

[Lori]

Know, shangly guitars plus then the Buzzcocks give you the distortion. I feel like the foundation is laid there.

[Scott Free]

Okay, all right, so they started playing together and these are three really talented musicians. I mean you're going to hear when, when we start listening to the music. They were a really tight trio.

[Lori]

Yeah, 1987, the band. And let's be honest, this is Jim Ellison's brainchild and he was the one who had the sort of vision and crafted the band's path. Jim Ellison creates Big Block Records, which was their own record label which was being operated out of his bedroom in his parents house in Addison, Illinois, I believe.

[Scott Free]

Correct.

[Lori]

Near western suburb of Chicago. So they've got their own record label and they release an EP, self titled EP material issue that year. 1987.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, they started packing crowds here in Chicago at the Metro and at the Cubby Bear. Then the CMJ New Music Report Journal put out a sampler CD that included a Material Issue song and that started to get them some attention. What was the name of the song on that sampler? I've already forgotten.

[Lori]

16 tambourines.

[Scott Free]

16 tambourines. I don't know if I know that one. 16.

[Lori]

Yeah. Offhand I don't. I will say though that the magazine did a poll as to which track was people's favorite on the compilation CD and the material issue track was the winner of that, which started to get some attention then from the larger music industry.

[Scott Free]

Gotcha. All right, so then I guess that.

[Lori]

Leads us to 89 and grenade.

[Scott Free]

Yes, WXRT radio station here in Chicago. Scott, you've mentioned it in a few episodes.

[Lori]

I freaking love wxrt, Chicago's finest rock. They're an independent radio station. I think they're owned by a corporate overlord now, but they still have DJs who are picking their own music, DJing their shows in real time and who really promote local rock and rock adjacent genres. It's a great radio station, arguably the best commercial radio station in Chicago. Please send a swag. WXRT.

[Scott Free]

Nice. There was a time in. Yeah. 89, 90 where you could not turn on WXRT without hearing Renee Remains the Same. Yes.

[Lori]

Renee Remains the Same would be a single off of the album that we are reviewing today, International Pop Overthrow. But it was actually released two years in advance of that album, just as a single, self produced, self released single on Jim Ellison and Material Issues, Big Block Records.

[Scott Free]

They connected with Jim Murphy, who was a record producer. He owned a studio up in Zion, Illinois, which is. And the northern part of the state.

[Lori]

It is so far north that if you go any further, you're in Wisconsin. It's like barely a suburb. It's like out there, man.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. What I didn't realize was that Jeff Murphy was the guitarist and lead singer of the seventies pop band Shoes.

[Lori]

That is true.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. For Jim Ellison that was a very good match because he was really a big fan of like 60s and 70s style pop and rock, you know, with the simple melodies and the catchy hooks and that is Shoes. They fit that definition.

[Lori]

Oh yeah. Jim Ellison sought Murphy out for that very reason because the music that he made was very much the kind of music that Ellison wanted to make.

[Scott Free]

Yes.

[Lori]

So Jim Ellison seeks out Jeff Murphy to produce a series of demos at his Zion studio, as you said, which was Short Order Recorder Studio. He had the band record a series of demos at that studio and they were paying for the studio time with money that they had made while touring and they would get enough money to buy a four hour block of studio Time and they would bang out as much as they could in that four hour block and then go back, keep touring, earn more money, come back, buy more studio time, and at the end of about three years, they had enough tracks to create an album from. And that album was the album we're talking about today. International Pop Overthrow. Funny bit that came up in that documentary. The tape that they needed to record this was expensive and it would be like 200 bucks for a single reel of tape, but you could rent it for cheaper and you got your copy of it, the original tape would just go back into circulation and get erased and written over with a commercial or some other band's track. And so oftentimes the songs as they were recorded in that four hour chunk of time, well, that was it. Once they were done, they were done and there was no changing them. But between Jim Ellison and Jeff Murphy, they were making some incredibly polished, tight power pop. And oftentimes it really didn't need much after that.

[Scott Free]

These again are from that documentary film, a couple quotations. So there was a producer named Mike Chapman. He said in the film, as a record producer you dream about finding a band that the minute you walk into the studio starts to play and you go, holy fuck, this is real. There's nothing fake about this. And that was the best thing about material issue.

[Lori]

Oh yeah. I mean, Jim Ellison was very clear about what he wanted to be. He was incredibly passionate. He wanted to make this pure power pop. And you know, it was simple, it was straightforward. He was incredibly confident to the point of cockiness, to the point of being off putting to some of his colleagues in the Chicago music community. But he knew what he had and he knew that he was tapping into something bigger than just these pop songs like they were making. Again, I keep saying power pop and you know, it has some pretty specific connotations. If I may. From the Wikipedia. Power pop typically incorporates melodic hooks, vocal harmonies and energetic performance and cheerful sounding music, underpinned by a sense of yearning, longing, despair and self empowerment. The sound is primarily rooted in pop and rock traditions of the early to mid-1960s, although some artists have occasionally drawn from later styles. One thing I didn't realize before getting into the research on this today is that the actual term power pop was coined by Pete Townsend to describe the who's early music. And when you hear particularly some of those jangly hooks, but with up tempo driving beat and a bit of distortion, they were following in the footsteps of early, like my generation, the who. But you know, while power pop can describe that 60s rock, we really more associate it with a lot of 70s bands. Bad finger, Local Heroes, Cheap Trick, Big Star, the Knack, the Romantics. It's upbeat, it's driving, it's got the hooks, it's got catchy sing alongable lyrics and it's got a little bit of crunch to it. And that's what Jim Ellison wanted to make. And you know, this is an alternative music podcast, but I am an unabashed fan of pop music and I think pop is a universal force. It's like the force from Star Wars. It's out there in the ether, it surrounds us and one can tap into it to get that force that gets you into the mind of the listener. Goes through their ear. It roots in their brain and with the right catchy hook and the right simple lyrics about universal themes, you get something pure and beautiful and inescapable. Now you can lay different styles upon it. Pop punk, you can have, pop metal, you can have. I mean pop bluegrass, you don't Mumford and songs. It's freaking pop bluegrass. But at its core, it's gotta have that pop sensibility. It's designed to get in your ear and stay there. And Jim Ellison knew how to make an earworm.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, he really did. So, little warning as we go into the track by track here. These songs are going to get stuck in your head.

[Lori]

They are. It's true.

[Scott Free]

Yeah.

[Lori]

So one last thing.

[Scott Free]

Yes.

[Lori]

A 2023 Pitchfork album review of International Pop Overthrow. A look back at that album by Ariel Borden has a great quote that I love. The rise of material issues seemed almost predestined. Their music lived in the realm of girls, cars and hanging out with girls in cars. They sounded instantly familiar, yet slightly wild. Like a radio playing top 40 hits in a dream.

[Scott Free]

Well, I guess then that leads us to International Pop Overthrow. Scott, what's the first song?

[Lori]

First song is the big one from this album. Valerie Loves Maker.

[C]

Valerie's dancing on the room above my bed you know all the world belongs to sea Valerie's leaving on a car outside my house you know such a shame she's now with me and all the pretty things know the love my heart could bring. I would give my whole life to. To.

[Lori]

Oh my God. This is just a perfect power pop song. This track is amazing. It was when it came out. You can still hear it on the radio occasionally in Chicago to this day. This was Material Issue putting their best foot forward with just a blazing pop rock track.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. And that ch. Ch. Chuck guitar that's going on there in the. In between the verses. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this is a great song to open off the album. And so, Scott, obviously, then you know the story about who this song is about.

[Lori]

I do, but please regale us.

[Scott Free]

Oh, okay. In Chicago, very commonly, there are what we call three flats. You know, usually they're brick buildings where somebody would buy one, rent out the other two floors on the third floor of the building. When Jim was about 11 years old, there lived a teenager named Valerie, and he was just completely enamored with her. Now, in the documentary film, there was an interview with Jim's mom where she said he might have loved Valerie, but we didn't. I'm sure there's a story there.

[Lori]

I wonder if anyone has sought, has done the detective work and found Valerie to see if she was even aware of young Jim Ellison's existence. Because if you get into the lyrics of Valerie Loves Me, it seems like she really wasn't.

[Scott Free]

Valerie's dancing in the room above my bed, you know, for all the world below to see. Valerie's leaving in a car outside my house, you know, such a shame she's not with me. And all the pretty things and all the love my heart would bring. I would give my whole life to her.

[Lori]

I mean, it's a young kid just wishing, just pining for this cool teenage girl. The second verse, more or less the same idea. Valerie's riding in a car around my neighborhood. She's thinking of all the men she'll meet. I could only hope for a stolen moment of her thoughts between the walk to the club and all the drinks she'll have in a crowded room where everybody leaves too soon. I only hope that she remembers me. And you think, oh, this is a sweet song. Yeah, it's unrequited love from a guy who is talking about a girl who doesn't know he exists. And, okay, that would just be a sweet pop song. But then as sometimes takes place in a Jim Ellison joint, it takes a turn, right?

[Scott Free]

Valerie's lonely in an apartment down the street, you know, and her hair has turned so gray. But she's so happy for the memories she has, you know, she can believe in the day when love was on a string and she could have that. Anything she ever wanted. But she can't have me. Valerie loves me.

[Lori]

That saxophone wail during the scream, Valerie loves me is just fantastic.

[Scott Free]

Do we know who's playing saxophone on this album? I don't think I saw anything in the album credits.

[Lori]

Did not see any mention of it, no.

[Scott Free]

Probably a session musician but yeah, so now, you know, the little boy is all grown up and Valerie's gotten older and turned gray. Right, but that last line, but she can't have me. You know, he's over it now and.

[Lori]

He'S a big time rock star or at least on his way to becoming one.

[Scott Free]

There you go. There you go.

[Lori]

So, yeah, you know, sweet love song that turns bitter.

[Scott Free]

You know, we're gonna see a lot of that in this album.

[Lori]

Yeah. The only thing I would add about this track is for its 3 minutes, 5 seconds, it is in theory played at 92 beats per minute. And that's just for you, Zabe. In the more electronic and dance based tracks, I do tend to talk about BPMs for the DJs out there. This will be the only track that I talk about this on. But Zabe, I know you're always looking out for it. You're welcome. Although it's 92 bpm, it really doesn't feel like it because it is a fast driving double time 92. So you know, it's this bright, fast paced, boppy pop beat. It could really be argued that it's double that at 184bpm. But this will be my last mention of BPM for this album. I'm sorry, Zabe.

[Scott Free]

Well, Scott, since we're name dropping Zabe, we might as well name drop his podcast who Will Save Generation X. And as a matter of fact, he has a little message prepared for us.

[D]

Hello, my name is Abe and I host the only trivia game show that is dedicated to remembering, celebrating and preserving all the wonderful qualities of Generation X through games, trivia and friends. It's called who Will Save Generation X Trivia Game Show. The judges and I would like to welcome you to join in the effort to save Generation X pop culture from fading into oblivion. The show is a light hearted stroll through the cool stuff of your youth where you get to play along with our in show contestants. The winners of each episode gets to pick a prize from my ebay watch list filled with treasures of the past. But more importantly, they win the satisfaction of knowing that they're doing their part to save the forgotten generation from truly being forgotten. Are you ready to do your part? Find us wherever you get your podcasts and play along with the contestants while you listen and see what rad prize you would have wanted if you were here with us saving the memories of Generation X. You're sure to get a nice dose of nostalgia and a few laughs along the way. So subscribe today and we'll answer the question together of who will save Generation X?

[Scott Free]

Order for Jennifer C. Is this my double shot, Double cream, double froth, double pump, double whip, double sleeve. Yeah. Can you handle that much caffeine? Did you know Discover automatically doubles all the cash back you've earned? Earned? At the end of your first year? Oh, really? That's great.

[Lori]

Seriously.

[Scott Free]

Did you know Discover automatically doubles all the cash back you've earned at the end of your first year? Yeah, you. You just said that. Did you say I just said that? Yeah. I'm cutting you off. I can't have any more. Why not? You earn.

[Lori]

We match. Discover cash back match. See [e-mail] credit card.

[Scott Free]

All right. Yeah. It's a fun, fun podcast. Please be sure to check it out.

[Lori]

Yeah. Well, then that brings us to track two.

[Scott Free]

Yes. This one is called Diane.

[C]

Diane's got everything A helicopter and a submarine yeah, man, you're just what this world needs Diane lives in sanctuary she swears to Jesus you never marry yeah, man, you're everything to me Diane, Diane, Diane, Diane, Diane, Diane, Diane, Diane, Diane, Diane.

[Lori]

First off, Diane sounds rad. I want to hang out with her. Diane's got everything. A helicopter and a submarine. Like, Diane's cool as hell.

[Scott Free]

All right, so the story, allegedly. And I was not able to verify this, but I remember when the song came out, everybody was talking about, Diane was Jim Ellison's babysitter when he was a kid.

[Lori]

Perfect.

[Scott Free]

How would a little kid picture his babysitter? Right? Oh, I bet she's got a helicopter in his submarine. I bet you she's got all of these, you know, fancy things. You know, you're a little kid and you perceive other people. So I don't know if that story's true. I want to think it's true.

[Lori]

Jim Elton doesn't always make it quite so straightforward and lovey or admiring lyrics. Go on later. She's got everything she wants in the world. Diane pretending to be some kind of calendar girl. Well, I'll pull you out and pin you down Diane. It's a little darker.

[Scott Free]

It's also kind of creepy if it is about his babysitter.

[Lori]

Right? I mean, also, you gotta give Jim Ellison some credit. He makes a super compelling pop song. And the chorus is just the name Diane repeated ten times. Diane, Diane, Diane, Diane, Diane, Diane, Diane, Diane, Diane. D Like, that's it. That's the whole chorus.

[Scott Free]

It's such a fun song, though. You know, it really. It really does have that kind of 60s is. No, I don't. I don't want to Say, Brit pop, but it's got that jangly pop sensibility to it, right?

[Lori]

Absolutely. These aren't exactly love songs. They're unrequited love songs. Like, the object of Ellison's love usually has no idea he exists or is in love with her or at least pays him no mind. And pay attention to this point. It will also become a metaphor later for Jim Ellison's career with tragic consequences.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, you know, listening to a lot of these songs, I really do feel like. And maybe this is not accurate, but I feel like, you know, the listener really kind of comes to know Jim the way that he's viewing all of these women and. And then we're gonna see. There's some songs later on in the second half of the album that are a little, I guess, darker.

[Lori]

But it ain't all just sunshine and lollipops and bubblegum. You hear people, you read, you see in the movie people talking about Jim Ellison, how he was so confident. He had this swagger to him, and he would brag about the good things going on in his life, but there was a darkness underneath it that he was really only revealing through some of these lyrics. And then occasional fights with other bands in Chicago and.

[Scott Free]

Oh, I didn't hear about that.

[Lori]

Oh, apparently, Material Issue and Red Red Meat got into what was described as a urine soaked brawl.

[Scott Free]

Oh, dear God. Kind of glad I wasn't there for that.

[Lori]

Yeah, right. Yeah, there was that confidence, but there was that sort of something going on under the surface. And you can see that peek through.

[Scott Free]

In these lyrics and in the lyrics for the next one.

[Lori]

All right, the next track, Renee remains the same.

[C]

She was the one who was most likely to. She never got through and she never got far. And if we look at a yearbook picture I'm sure we'll see her face that looks a lot like now she always wanted to be accepted she was only rejected anyhow. In the same remain the same.

[Lori]

All right, so as we mentioned earlier, this was actually material issues. First single released fully two years before International Pulpit Overthrow came out. I had a weird thought on this one. Okay, song reference. Walk Away Renee. It was a 1966 Baroque pop song by the Left Bank. Just walk away, Renee. I will make my case for it.

[Scott Free]

Okay.

[Lori]

It might just a little bit. It's a little faster with distortion and significantly less harpsichord than that baroque pop track. But lyrically, from Walk Away Renee and what I see the sign that points one way the lot we used to pass by every day Just walk away Renee, you won't see Me follow you home. And wow, you have from Rene remains the same. And if we look at her yearbook picture, I'm sure we'll see a face that looks a lot like now. It's that whole if we look and when I see. And the Renee like I. He was a fan of 60s pop. I am pretty certain that Jim Ellison was making a Walk Away Renee reference with this track, but.

[Scott Free]

She was the one who was most likely to. But she never got through and she never got far. So, you know, I'm originally from Chicago, but at about age 3, we moved out to the suburbs. And so I spent my formative years, my teens, out in the burbs. And there's always the people in high school that you really look up to, you know, the ones that are most likely to succeed or, you know, I.

[Lori]

Was voted most likely to be found in Hollywood, but they did not say whether that was as a successful actor or turning tricks on the strip.

[Scott Free]

Okay, well, anyway, you know, at least when I think back to it, so few of the people that peaked in high school actually went on to do anything with their lives. Most of them are still there. They haven't moved on. And so then towards the very end of the song where he says, I only wanted to get her affection, I only got rejection anyhow. And. Oh, man, just totally, totally related. You know, there was fairly recently, actually, it was about a year ago, reconnected with someone I went to high school with. And I had had a huge crush on this person in high school. And so, you know, that all of a sudden we're communicating. They're listening to the podcast, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I quickly realized, my God, you are a first class. And that's so true of so many of the people that I used to really like, look up to whatever, you know, that's my Renee, I guess. Well, then, anyway, anyway. But yeah, you know, again, it's that theme of pining for the girl who doesn't know he exists or that he.

[Lori]

Can never have, but then ultimately rejecting her. Is it sour grapes? Is it personal growth and seeing it wasn't what he wanted anyways. Are those two sides of the same coin? Yeah, something like that.

[Scott Free]

All right. And then we're kind of taking a little bit of a shift here. This is a little bit more melancholy. This song is called this Letter.

[C]

Oh, yes, it's me writing this letter. And God, how I hope that it makes me feel better. And that's me. The end of your life. Though I don't see a word I Call all the time I like to tell you the way I do for you But I only been lying to myself.

[Lori]

Notably, this is the first track on the album not featuring a woman's name in the title, and it's track four.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, I guess you're right. The first three, huh?

[Lori]

Yep. Me, I am really hearing some 1980s cheap trick in this track in particular. Jim Ellison's voice has a lot of Robin Zander in it. And in this track in particular.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, and in this song in particular, Jim Ellison's voice is just so full of emotion. You can really feel the longing in his voice, you know? Oh, yeah, definitely. And when this album came out, they really drew a lot of comparisons to Cheap Trick, who are also, for our listeners, not quite Chicago.

[Lori]

They're based in Rockford, couple hours west, but pretty close.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. And actually, I think Rick Nielsen from Cheap Trick, I think he guessed it on one of material issues, later albums, didn't he?

[Lori]

On their third album? He did, yeah. Did lend some guitar work to it.

[Scott Free]

Oh, I, I love him. I, I Somewhere I've got one of his guitar picks.

[Lori]

Oh, nice. What do you got? You know, this is becoming a recurring theme, but this is not your typical love song.

[Scott Free]

Oh, yes, it's me writing this letter and God, how I hope that it makes me feel better and yeah, it's me the end of your line Though I don't say a word I call all the time yeah.

[Lori]

Again, it seems like it's gonna be sweet but melancholy. But then it takes the big turn, the couplet that I particularly liked. I'd like to tell you how much I love you but spoiler alert, I don't love you anymore oh, ouch.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, and then the chorus. And by the way, there's some really good harmonies in this band. Ted, the bassist, harmonizes so well with Jim here, but on the choruses, you can't have everything know not everything you want But I want everything oh, yeah Everything you've got Again, the choruses are.

[Lori]

So simple, it's oftentimes a single word or a single line, or take that line, repeat it, but just tweak it a little bit the second time. But he just makes these ultra simple but still catchy and singable choruses. One of the hooks that makes power pop so catchy. That brings the letter to a close. Which brings us then to track five out right now.

[C]

Well, if the birds in your sky Just continue Can I have your love? And if the leaves and your trees if they sway with the breeze Tell me dear, tell me Please. Have you had enough? What she said. Well, up right now But I might be back in the morning. Yeah, I'm up right now. Leave your name, your number on the recording. Well, if the car that you drive if it suddenly collides Can I give you a ride? Then I take you home and if the words that I say make you run, run away Tell me now yeah.

[Scott Free]

Today I love this one. This is such a fun song.

[Lori]

I mean, this is such a power pop throwback that it, like, shoots back in time past the point where Pete Townsend coined the term power pop and goes all the way back to, like, the British Invasion. Practically feels like it could have been released by Herman's Hermits or something. If Herman's Hermits had discovered distortion and knew what an answering machine was.

[Scott Free]

Just what I was gonna say. Yeah, okay.

[Lori]

It's an imperfect analysis. All right, let's do it.

[Scott Free]

You know, the lyrics of this one are so sweet. I mean, basically, you kind of get the feeling that here's this guy, he finally got up the courage to say all the things that he wants to say.

[Lori]

Well, if the car that you drive if it suddenly collides Can I give you a ride? Can I take you home? And if the words that I say make you run, run away Tell me now yeah, today have you heard them all? When she says, well, I'm out right.

[Scott Free]

Now, but I might be back in the morning. I'm out right now. Leave your name and number on the recording.

[Lori]

Just. Ouch. That's her outgoing message. And he's, like, pining for her. And she's just, like, out living her best life. She might not be home anytime soon.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, well, yeah, I might be back in the morning then, you know, then she's sleeping somewhere else, right?

[Lori]

This is what we're saying.

[Scott Free]

I'm a little slow. Anything else on that one?

[Lori]

I feel like that'll do it.

[Scott Free]

Okay, well, here's another sweet love song. This one is called Crazy.

[C]

How she meet her A friend of a friend I guess when you see her you'll be also impressed when she smiles Just drives me wild all the time I go crazy I go crazy without you I. I go crazy I go crazy I go crazy when I'm without you.

[Scott Free]

Really like the kind of conversational style of this one. I mean, we kind of had it with out right now, but the conversation was with him and the answering machine. But now I think we have a conversation between two friends. Have you seen her? Yeah, I've seen her before. How's she doing? Same way as before like a flower.

[Lori]

She breaks through the showers into my heart. The chorus, like I was saying, he can take just a single sentence and tweak it just a little bit and turn it into a whole damn chorus. Basically, I go crazy when I'm without you but he turns that into I, I go crazy I go crazy without you I, I go crazy I go crazy when I'm without you and that's it. Like, it is not blazing any new trails lyrically, but damn, he makes some pretty typical lyrics. Hooky and compelling and once again, sing alongable.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, he's really got a gift for that pop hook. Yeah.

[Lori]

It's a simple song.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. I mean, didn't you teach me that in. In design school? Kiss? Keep it simple, self.

[Lori]

Yeah, I always keep it simple, stupid. Because I was that teacher. I would not fly in a 2024 class ring. But it was a long time ago.

[Scott Free]

Seems like it. Yeah. All right, what's next?

[Lori]

Track 7 is Chance of a Lifetime.

[C]

You think you're fooling me Lies I see compromise don't go pushing me, baby don't hear anymore Go ahead, there's the door don't go tell the nobody has hand up in miss the chance to the left. Chance.

[Lori]

Does this one feel like a Smith's track to you?

[Scott Free]

Musically, yes. The vocals, not so much.

[Lori]

Obviously. Not vocally, he sounds nothing like Morrissey, but. Yeah, musically, that yangly guitar with just enough distortion echoing Johnny Mar, basically.

[Scott Free]

Yeah.

[Lori]

And that driving drum beat like.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, yeah. But this one kind of starts off a little bit darker than the other ones. You think you're fooling me with your lies I see it shows in your eyes and I'd rather die than compromise don't go pushing me, baby Dying Getting tough yeah. But then, you know, he gets to the chorus. It kind of tonally shifts a little bit. But he's telling her, don't miss the chance of a lifetime.

[Lori]

Oh. And he's telling her that over and over again. It's another one of those choruses where it's don't miss the chance of a lifetime and repeats it. Don't miss the chance of a lifetime the chance of a lifetime the chance of a lifetime the chance of a lifetime the chance of a lifetime the what now is the king of just taking that one sentence and twisting and repeating it.

[Scott Free]

We've got those really good vocal harmonies again on the chorus. Yeah.

[Lori]

And you know, there's another band, contemporaries of theirs who had another big album in 1991, an English band, the Wonder stuff that has A lot of similarities there. And the vocals, the voice in particular has that more nasal, bright tone.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. You mentioned the wonder stuff. We still have to do that episode on Grebo.

[Lori]

Yeah. I think maybe when we finish 91 on an individual album basis, they maybe we do a couple genre based ones.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, I think we should. Yeah.

[Lori]

Well, I guess that brings us to track eight.

[Scott Free]

Track eight, International Pop Overthrow.

[C]

I was riding around with the radio up and the window down I took a minute or two to think about all my problems Riding in this band, playing in this band, you know, it's bringing me down But I fought back up when the British. The last of all. It's an international bump over International bump Overthrow. It's an international bump Overthrow International.

[Lori]

The title track and the slightest English accent on the Pulp kills me a little bit. It's international pulp Overthrow which is hilarious coming from a Chicago gag, but it.

[Scott Free]

Is kind of funny. Yeah, but it's got the kind of a Beatles esque vibe to it, doesn't it?

[Lori]

Oh, for sure.

[Scott Free]

And the lyrics on this one are absolutely fantastic. I think this actually might be one of my favorite songs lyrically.

[Lori]

Oh, for sure. I was riding around with the radio up and the windows down it took a minute or two to think about all my problems Driving in this van, playing in this band, you know, it's bringing me down but I'll pop back up when the pretty blue lights come on.

[Scott Free]

And that line, I don't need a girlfriend, I need an accomplice.

[Lori]

Love that line.

[Scott Free]

Oh my God, if somebody ever said that to me, I would melt.

[Lori]

I mean, yeah. When it came out, this song seemed just like a fun song. Bragging about being in a touring rock band, albeit with a little bit of that usual rock star lament about the difficulties of life on the road. But you know, it really takes on a whole new sadder level of meaning knowing what we know now about how material issues, career and Jim Ellison's life would play out. But you know, that was their life. Like they were on the road a lot of it and seeing some pretty big returns on the work put in. Like they were going from, you know, shows at the Cubby Bear to shows at the Metro. And when you are able to sell out a show at the Metro in Chicago, you can really consider yourself to have made it as a local band, done good.

[Scott Free]

And so then they had designs on taking it to the next level. The idea, you know, international.

[Lori]

Absolutely.

[Scott Free]

And. And then Overthrow because you know that this was something that was very different than what many of the other bands were doing right then and there.

[Lori]

Oh, yeah. They were subverting the dominant rock paradigm of the time with this throwback pop.

[Scott Free]

Yeah.

[Lori]

And you know, there's one point where in chorus they throw arena crowd noise in the mix. So there's this just massive crowd cheering. And this isn't like small rock club crowd. It is like an arena. Jim Ellison really did have some ambition and outsized confidence, huh?

[Scott Free]

Yeah. So I had mentioned to you previously, and I sounded like you hadn't heard of this, there's an international pop overthrow festival.

[Lori]

I'm aware of its existence.

[Scott Free]

Oh, okay. I thought it was just a Chicago thing, but it turns out this is actually like a worldwide festival.

[Lori]

Yes.

[Scott Free]

And they have it every year in Chicago in April. And I don't think it's the same bands at every location either.

[Lori]

No, no. At least one of the surviving members of the band plays at the international popover throw festival when it is in Chicago. So. Yeah. It's not always the same lineups city to city.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, yeah. That's all I got on that one.

[Lori]

It's plenty. It is a upbeat, fun song. I don't know what else you want from a pop album.

[Scott Free]

Yeah.

[Lori]

That brings us to track nine, Very first lie.

[C]

I like to wake up with you early in the morning or stay up late Just playing records on your phonograph I like to get to know your mother and your father maybe just want to pretend to be somebody's better half and I would like to tell the very first lie.

[Lori]

Okay. It's a weird take, but I stand by it at first with that light country strummed acoustic guitar thing and the stick, the drumstick on the snare rim, backbeat thing going. So. Feeling like an eagle song.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. In the beginning.

[Lori]

I mean, obviously, again, not Jim Ellison's voice. It is very distinctly his own. And it is neither Don Henley nor Glenn Frey nor the weird occasional Joe Walsh track, but you get me. But then that chunky set of guitar chord comes in on the two and the four and. No, we are firmly back in power hop territory.

[Scott Free]

Yes.

[Lori]

Eaglesy. And then goes much more. Cheap Trick.

[Scott Free]

Yes. There's one point where the guitar. It almost sounds like it's like a music student playing notes and it's. It feels like it drags.

[Lori]

Okay, so I see what you're saying. Like the guitar line is very much scales, almost exercise. I see what you're saying, but, you know, it's moving, it's proficient guitar work. It's not lighting the world on fire with blazing guitar Solos, but that's not what he's going for. He's going for melodic, jangly pop with a little bit more crunch to it. Yeah, yeah. The lyrically. Lyrically, I like some of what's going on in here.

[Scott Free]

Okay.

[Lori]

I'd like to wake up with you early in the morning or stay up late playing records on your phonograph. Ah, that hits me. I'd like to get to know your mother and your father, maybe just once pretend to be somebody's better half. And it's like, ah, that is. That is so wholesome. And I would like to tell the very first lie. Yep, that is less wholesome.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. These lyrics are just so sweet, though. If a significant other, somebody I was dating, if they said to me, I'd like to ignore all my friends and spirit, spend some time with you, maybe shake your tambourine or I'd like to get to know your family and friends, you know, maybe pick you up from work. I mean, that is, like, just the sweetest, you know.

[Lori]

Well. Well, yes. And that is the sweet part. And then it turns, right. I'd like to do the sorts of things that you and I could do Till it hurts.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. Well, but I mean, isn't that just kind of how it is, though, in the initial stages of the relationship? You know, you're enamored of each other and you're willing to do all of this stuff, and then it hurts.

[Lori]

I mean, I get it. It is sweet, but it's sweet with an edge is what I'm saying. It is not just a snappy, sweet love song. He knows what he's doing. And again, it has that twist. I would like to tell the very first lie he knows he's going to fuck this up.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. Yeah. We're really kind of getting some insight here, I think, into Jim Ellison.

[Lori]

He has that sweetness, but he always fucks it up. And that sounds like trouble. Which brings us to our next track, track 10. What is that track, Lori?

[Scott Free]

Trouble.

[C]

Well, let me tell you all a little story about the man who lives down at the top of the stairs well, he wept all his life for his children and his wife and he opened up a little spell down there well, one night late while he was locking the gate a kid came in he said, you know what I want and he said, I ain't looking for trouble and I know what you came here to do.

[Lori]

Hey. It's a song that isn't about love, requited or otherwise.

[Scott Free]

Right? Yeah. This one is going for, I guess, a Western vibe to it, you know, I ain't looking for trouble, and I know what you came here to do. And the kid said, trouble has come looking for you. I mean, it sounds like a gunfight or something in the Old West.

[Lori]

Yeah, it's just a straight up story about crime and punishment, but it does have, yeah, that sort of Old west justice feel to it.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. Well, I spent four years of my life here in this cold, gray prison cell with cigarettes in my magazine, in my life. It feels like hell.

[Lori]

Yeah. Yeah, that beat also. The beat and the guitar work all has a particularly western feel to it, for sure. But, yeah, like, take that, critics who said that Jim Ellison was a one trick pony, even though they mostly have to admit that it was a pretty solid trick. That one trick, I will admit it feels shoehorned in this album. Musically, I think the musical western feel, that drive and beat really does work thematically. It's odd and, you know, he gets to branch out and not just make those songs about requited and unrequited love, but it's a weird one for this album.

[Scott Free]

Yeah.

[Lori]

I think it's probably neither of our favorites.

[Scott Free]

No, no, I. I would be surprised if it's anybody's favorite. I'm not saying it's a terrible song. It's just the other ones are much better.

[Lori]

Fair enough. Okay, we can move on then. Track 11. There was a few.

[C]

That was a few. Maybe one, maybe two. Then there was you Once you run with me cuz there was a few Then there was you.

[Scott Free]

This one begins by name. Checking another girl. So the girl's name is Lulu.

[Lori]

Yeah. Hey, Lulu. I'd like to think that you and I should get together soon. All right. The Jim Allison that we know is back. Fun, bouncy guitar pop, this one. One of the things stylistically, particularly visual style that Jim actually crafted for the band and particularly for himself, that I think this song is the sonic equivalent of is that mod thing, sort of what the who was coming out of.

[Scott Free]

Like the jam, that mercy beat.

[Lori]

And yeah, that this has a feel of that mod rocker thing happening in the mid to late 60s.

[Scott Free]

You know, since you mentioned the whole mod thing back to the documentary film, they actually interviewed Jim DeRogatis, who is a music journalist here in Chicago. Yes, this quotation is apparently where they got the title of the film, out of time. Jim DeRogatis said they were out of time for their entire freaking career. You know, they're mods. 20 years later, they're pioneering alternative pop makers four to five years too early. So he Seems to be saying, you know what? They were a little 20 years too late for the whole mod scene, four to five years too early for the whole Brit pop, all that kind of stuff. They were out of time, you know, they were out of sync with popular music.

[Lori]

Yeah. I would say he would probably argue that he was making music that is timeless, or at least retro in a way that isn't dependent on current music trends. But, yeah, that is always a risk when you are doing the retro thing, the retro cycle. The eras that come in and out of fashion do so at very specific times. And if you miss that timing, you're going to seem woefully dated even if you are making current music. Right, yes.

[Scott Free]

Yes, that makes sense.

[Lori]

Yeah.

[Scott Free]

The part I love of this song is the chorus, because there was a few, maybe one, maybe two. Then there was you. Won't you run with me? Okay. You know, I was with somebody before you, you know, maybe one, maybe two. I mean, you'd know, right, if it was one or if it was two, you know? But now wipe the stars from your eyes and dance with me, you know, so that's all in the past now and now, now there's you. So I just think that that's really sweet.

[Lori]

Well, yeah, absolutely. And to the whole style thing, the song does end with a line that really does sum it up, this whole out of time thing. Because every time I turn on the TV screen, I don't see no one at all who looks like me. He was out of touch with the style of the time, and he knew it. He was making something so timeless and tapping into something so universal that he could make it work. Which brings us to track 12.

[Scott Free]

Okay. Track 12. This far before.

[C]

I spent a lot of time Thinking about you Thinking about me I'm trying real hard, you know, to live without you but girl, can't you see I've been watching Been waiting Been anticipating to come inside your heart and I'm wishing, I'm hoping, I'm laughing I joking Another stop Because I never before.

[Lori]

All right. I know I'm doing this a lot. This particular episode, this sort of retro power pop thing really does hearken back to other bands of other eras. Does this remind you of the House Martins?

[Scott Free]

Okay, I could see it. I could see it.

[Lori]

Yeah. Jangly guitar pop. I mean, there's a lot of references it could make, but in particular, it feels a lot like Happy Hour by the House Martins.

[Scott Free]

But again, you know, just these happy, romantic lyrics. I spend a lot of time thinking about you do you Think about me I'm trying real hard, you know, to live without you but girl, can't you see I've been watching, been waiting, been anticipating to come inside your heart and I'm wishing, I'm hoping, I'm laughing, I'm joking Is this the end or the start? So sweet.

[Lori]

So sweet it is. At first it feels like your standard boy loses girl and wants girl back type of song. But my friends, they tell me that I'm crazy for letting you go. They just don't really understand you. They don't know what I know. This ain't a love song. It's kind of a hate letter.

[Scott Free]

I don't know if I agree because I got so frustrated last time that we dated. I just can't figure you out now I'm laughing, I'm crying, I'm hoping I'm lying. I'm hoping to get it worked out. So something about this girl's emotions is confusing to him, you know? And I get it. I. You know, it's. I confuse the hell out of people sometimes, too. But he ends it with, I've never fallen this far before. So he's still absolutely crazy about her. Right?

[Lori]

We try it real hard not to think about you.

[Scott Free]

Well, yeah, but I mean, for me.

[Lori]

That line, the verse that I already said, really, though, is my friends, they tell me that I'm crazy for letting you go. Yeah. They just don't really understand you. They don't know what I know. He's saying, the friends think I should get you back. And I'm like, oh, but you don't know her, man.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. But then he's hoping to get it worked out. Oh.

[Lori]

I mean, have you never been in that relationship?

[Scott Free]

As a matter of fact, I have.

[Lori]

Yes, you have. As have I. I rarely have I found a lyric more relatable than to that particular one.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lori]

No follow up questions.

[Scott Free]

Okay. That's fair.

[Lori]

Yeah.

[Scott Free]

Okay. Anything else on this one?

[Lori]

No.

[Scott Free]

That. You're up next.

[Lori]

All right. Track 13. A very good idea.

[C]

Cause I remember you and all the silly things you do to make me smile Yet I'm frowning all the while Silly. I think it would be a very good idea. You didn't break my heart. Yeah. I think it would be a very good idea if you didn't tear us by. Wow.

[Lori]

This one's just okay.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, it's just okay, but it's Jim Ellison wearing his heart on his sleeve.

[Lori]

All right, go on.

[Scott Free]

I think it would be a very good idea if you didn't break my heart Come on.

[Lori]

Yes. I like that line a lot as well.

[Scott Free]

Hey.

[Lori]

I mean, it's the one that gives the song its title. It is the big hook. It is just very sweet and earnest and a little understated. I think it would be a very good idea if you didn't break my heart. Yes, that is a good idea. Yes. Don't do that.

[Scott Free]

It does kind of come as a little bit of a jolt after the bouncy pop from There was a few and this far before. And now we're getting into something that's, you know, almost ballad like.

[Lori]

Yeah, yeah. It. It is a little out of place, the production on it. And mostly the opening guitar chord progression does to me feel a little bit flat, as if it was a demo.

[Scott Free]

Okay, well.

[Lori]

Which in fact, it is. So. You know. But yeah, I think in an album of, you know, really driving, jangly guitar pop, this almost valid is it's a change of pace. It's fine. It's just not at the same level as a lot of the other tracks.

[Scott Free]

I agree. I agree. And, you know, they can't all be Valerie loves me.

[Lori]

No, they cannot. Yeah, that is a. Yeah, that is a high bar. And they said it right out the gate.

[Scott Free]

Well, you know, and this is something that I know I've talked about with your predecessors, and I think we've talked about it as well, is a lot of times these bands would front load the album with the strongest tracks, knowing that radio stations and A and R guys wouldn't usually get past the first two or three tracks.

[Lori]

Yeah.

[Scott Free]

All right. Well, Scott, I think it would be a very good idea if we move on to the next track.

[Lori]

I see what you did there.

[Scott Free]

All right, so the final track of the album is called Lil Christine.

[C]

Well, maybe I should. Shouldn't have sent your flowers. I should have waited a couple hours but hey, it was your birthday. Cross the trees.

[Lori]

All right, so if a very good idea was only an okay idea because it was a little out of character in terms of production. Whatever. Little Christine Jim is back in top form to close this marar out. This is fourth and final track of the four on the album to be named after a woman. And again, that brings us up to 28.5% of the tracks on this album. Named for a woman. And Lil Christine is a pretty solid track.

[Scott Free]

The opening line is just so. It's so perfect. Hello? Well, it's me again. Like a leaf I fell from your tree again so we can stalk her here Hanging out in her tree maybe trying to catch a glimpse of her in the window or whatever, right?

[Lori]

But if he looks real hard he can see again that you'll never say you're sorry. So, yeah, some something has happened. Speaking of the trees, another verse a little later. And from across the yard if I'll move the trees and I'll kick away the stars and I stay out all night and I try real hard maybe I'll find my way to your mind.

[Scott Free]

So again we have the unrequited love.

[Lori]

Willing to move heaven and earth to get her to come around but without actually doing anything but wishing and a little bit of light stalking.

[Scott Free]

Maybe I shouldn't have sent you flowers. I should have waited a couple of hours. But hey, it was your birthday.

[Lori]

Yeah, he said flowers at a bad time.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. And stocked her in a tree.

[Lori]

As one does.

[Scott Free]

So, Scott, then I guess this leads us to the end of this album.

[Lori]

So with the pretty substantial success of International Pulpit Overthrow, the record company really threw money at the band. They gave them a pretty big budget for a follow up album where they could have gone with any producer they wanted really, but they stuck with Jeff Murphy in Zion, Illinois. And Murphy produced essentially a more polished sequel to international pop overthrow, 1992's destination universe. And it was pretty solid sequel, but it didn't sell as well as International Popover Throw. Did it have a great single from it, what Girls Want. But the record company was not in love with the sales of this album. Band took a brief break and then went back to the studio to produce their third album, this time still with a big budget. And they brought in producer he actually talked about earlier, Mike Chapman, who had produced a lot of big stars including Blondie and Cheap Trick, so who knew his way around pop rock music. And they produced the third album, Freak City Soundtrack, which gave us another big song about a woman. Kim the Waitress song was a cover. It should be noted Jim Ellison and Mike Chapman brought in additional players. So. So Material Issue got to play with one of their idols, Rick Nielsen from Cheap Trick, who you were talking about earlier as well. They got to bring in friends like Chips Enough from Enough Is Enough, another Chicago band. However, despite what everybody involved considered to be a freaking amazing album, it didn't hit. It only sold 50,000 copies. And Mercury just kind of had it with Material Issue and dropped them. And although Jim Ellison was working with other artists, including Chicago's Liz Fair, who you mentioned earlier, he started to really wonder if he had peaked as an artist and wondering what he was going to do with his life. If his dreams of massive Pop superstardom didn't come to fruition. Between that and breakup, In June of 1996, Jim Ellison became despondent.

[Scott Free]

June 20, 1996, Jim Ellison was found dead in his garage of carbon monoxide poisoning. He was 32 years old, and he did leave a suicide note behind. It was, in fact, ruled a suicide. I understand that Jim had also been drinking leading up to that. And so alcohol and depression is never, never a good combination.

[Lori]

Yeah, well, yeah. Precise details of the suicide note have not been publicly released, although in out of Time, the documentary we've been referencing, his mother did say that his suicide note had apologies to both her and his father, but explained that he, quote, just didn't want to live anymore.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. And you know what's really kind of sad is, I guess about two weeks prior, according to Joe Shanahan from the Metro, the band actually played a show at the Metro. And he said that there were a number of A and R men in.

[Lori]

The crowd that scouting the band or pick up.

[Scott Free]

Right, right, right.

[Lori]

A year after Jim Ellison's death, a posthumous album was released. Telecommando Americano, released on Ryko Disc. And, you know, Ted Ansani and Mike Zelenko continue to play to this day in bands in Chicago, but, you know, nothing at nearly the level of success of Material Issue. That kind of lightning really, you know, rarely strikes twice.

[Scott Free]

You know, Jim Suicide inspired a song by the Tragically hip, Canada's own.

[Lori]

Tragically Hip. Like growing up in Detroit and listening to CBC Radio on Windsor, you get a lot of Tragically Hip. So I can tell you Canada's Own.

[Scott Free]

Okay, except you're doing a bit of a Scottish accent there.

[Lori]

I mean, there's a lot of Scots in Canada.

[Scott Free]

Are there really? You don't throw an A and then it makes it Canadian. That's not how that works. Okay. So. No. The name of the song by Tragically Hip was called Escape Is At Hand for the Traveling Man. And it was written about Gord Downey's relationship with Jim Ellison and his grief over Jim's suicide.

[Lori]

Yeah, it was a big loss for Chicago music. And other bands from Chicago from that era that we talked about did go on to do big things, in particular, Smashing Pumpkins. But one does. One does wonder what could have happened with Material Issue or the individual members of it in other projects had Jim Ellison not cut his life short when he did.

[Scott Free]

Yeah. Well, Scott.

[Lori]

Yes.

[Scott Free]

I guess if we don't want to end on a sad note here. So what's your favorite track on the album?

[Lori]

You know, I. I realize it's the big pop single and it is the opener, but Valerie loves me is just such a perfect pop song. I have to give it to it.

[Scott Free]

Okay.

[Lori]

And yours.

[Scott Free]

You know, I've been going back and forth on this all day, but I am going to go with this far before.

[Lori]

All right.

[Scott Free]

Yeah, but it was almost international pop overthrow.

[Lori]

So good.

[Scott Free]

Very good. Okay, so what are we doing for our next episode?

[Lori]

Okay, for the next one, if material issues, international population overthrow was huge in Chicago, but maybe didn't make it quite so big across the rest of the globe. For our next album, we're going to go with one that absolutely did and was maybe so big that it no longer even was alternative anymore. But next episode we are doing 1991's U2 album, Octum Baby.

[Scott Free]

All right, that'll be a good one to revisit.

[Lori]

Yeah, I understand people like to hate on you too, especially after the itunes incident, but oh my God, that helped me. So good.

[Scott Free]

Well, great. So we'll be back in two weeks.

[Lori]

Happy birthday once again. Thank you and we'll see you all back here in two weeks.

[Scott Free]

Thanks for listening, everybody.

[Lori]

If you or someone you know is in crisis and is struggling with thoughts of self harm, you can call or text 988 to connect with the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. The Lifeline provides 24 hour confidential support to anyone in suicidal crisis or emotional distress. There's a lot to live for and we want you back here.