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Accelerated Culture
Episode 67: The Ocean Blue’s “Cerulean” (1991) with special guests David Schelzel & Peter Anderson
01:41:06
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- [00:00]
Scott Free
The equivalent of a rock documentary in a hardcover book. Guns n Roses at 40 celebrates the legendary band's four decades of rock and roll via 40 key events in their legendary career, including their early days on the Sunset Strip, all their albums, the infamous incidents and controversies, breakups and reunions, massive tours, personnel changes and more, along with bios of axl Rose, Duff McKagan, slash, Izzy Stradlin and Steven Adler. Featuring loads of in concert and offstage photos and a gatefold timeline, it's a must have for all Guns N roses fans. Available June 17th at bookstores and online.
- [00:41]
Naomi Carmack
The 1990s my very favorite decade, especially for music. This is Dope Nostalgia and I'm your host Naomi Carmack, and every week we revisit the era that brought us Hammer Pants, Crystal, Pepsi, Pogs, Hypercolor, Pokemon, and some of the greatest songs of all time on Dope Nostalgia. Not only do I have episodes where I talk about the big artists of the 90s with friends, but sometimes those big artists come on the show. Past guests include Naughty By Nature, George Lamond, Alana Miles, Color Me Bad, Biff, Naked Ed the Sock, Shakespeare's Sister Too Unlimited, the Funky Bunch, Technotronic Rosala, Tara Kemp, Mr. Big honeymoon, sweet, right? Said Fred, and so many more. Dope Nostalgia, a podcast made for 90s kids like you can find us on Spotify, Apple Music, Clodbean, Stitcher, and wherever podcasts are served.
- [01:40]
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- [02:44]
Lori
Welcome to the Accelerated Culture Podcast. A sonic journey through the vibrant and revolutionary sounds of the 1980s and 1990s. And now 2024 Webby Honoree for Best Indie Podcast. I'm Lori, along with my co host Scott Free, and in this podcast we explore how new waves stormed the airwaves in the early 80s and gave way for the rise of alternative music in the 90s. Find us on the web@acceleratedculturepodcast.com hello and welcome to a very special episode of the Accelerated Culture Podcast.
- [03:29]
Scott Free
I'm Lori and I am Scot Free. What? Wait, is it a very special episode of Accelerated Culture? Like it was a very special episode of Growing Pains where we're going to learn about drug use or teenage pregnancy or. No. Why is this a very special episode, Larry?
- [03:50]
Lori
Because after talking about it for months. Months, months, we are finally doing Cerulean by the Ocean Blue and we have some of the boys from the band waiting in our green room right now and they're going to come talk to us, which I'm really stoked about.
- [04:11]
Scott Free
Am amazed that we pulled it off. And when I say we, I mostly mean you. But yeah, it's finally happening and this will finally allow us to close out 1991 the way we wanted to.
- [04:24]
Lori
Woo hoo. So Scott, what have you seen? What have you done right?
- [04:31]
Scott Free
So over Memorial Day weekend I was in Detroit on family business as often happens of late. And while there, figured I might as well get out and see what's going on in Detroit on Memorial Day weekend as it has been for decades now. And that is the Movement Festival formerly known as the Detroit Electronic Music Festival. While a lot has changed in the 20 or so years that I have been to DANF or movement now, it is no longer a free event in downtown Detroit and you gotta pay a lot of money to get in and see stage after stage and competing artist after whatever. Instead I just went to a few of the peripheral events. The entire city of Detroit is pretty much every music venue in Detroit. And some venues that are not music venues become music venues and have DJs and artists. And one of the notables that I did go to see at a really cool club called Men Joe's, at which my friend Jill is a bartender these days, shout out doodlebug. I went and saw legendary UK jungle drum and bass and hardcore DJ Goldie spin and it was appropriately bonkers. Yeah, I had not seen a show like this with that much energy since Goldie's DJing heydays in the late 90s early 2000s he's since become a UK media personality. But yeah, the. The heyday of drum and bass and jungle back in the day and it was a blast.
- [06:12]
Lori
Very cool.
- [06:15]
Scott Free
And you, what have you done and. Or seen?
- [06:18]
Lori
I. Other than having a yard sale, that's about it. But I'm back teaching summer classes now, so.
- [06:28]
Scott Free
Well, you may not have made it out of the house a whole lot, but perhaps you want to give shouts out to anyone out there in the world.
- [06:37]
Lori
Yes. As a matter of fact, today I got a message from my friend Bea in Australia. Bea is one of the co hosts of the Inxcess All Areas podcast and she congratulated us.
- [06:53]
Scott Free
Scott, congratulations are in order. Apparently.
- [06:56]
Lori
Apparently we made number six on the Apple podcast chart in the category of American music history. I had no idea.
- [07:06]
Scott Free
We're number six. We're number six.
- [07:10]
Lori
World domination is right on schedule.
- [07:12]
Scott Free
I mean, it's only a matter of time till we get five. Number four is going to be hard to crack though, as that was Dolly Parton's podcast.
- [07:21]
Lori
Yeah, no, nobody can beat the Queen.
- [07:23]
Scott Free
So hey, thanks to all of you for listening. So really shout out to all of the listeners and tell your friends, let's. Yes, let's keep growing that audience.
- [07:34]
Lori
I like it. I like it.
- [07:36]
Scott Free
I too have a shout out. This is to a regular listener who apparently is just devouring the podcast. Margo is a big fan and she has said that she would love to hear us go back in time earlier into the 80s and she would love to hear anything about Yaz or the Violent Femmes. I know right now we are moving forward, not back, at least for now, but we have not ruled that possibility out. But there is another way that listeners can make a much stronger request, encourage or even almost strong arm us into doing an episode on a topic of their choosing. Is there not?
- [08:21]
Lori
Yes, that's correct, Scott, if you support us on Patreon, that's patreon.com acceleratedculturepodcast at the Platinum tier, which is $20 a month, not only do you get some really cool swag, but we will let you pick a topic of an upcoming episode for only $20 a month.
- [08:43]
Scott Free
It's a good deal.
- [08:44]
Lori
It's a very good deal. And the swag is pretty cool too, yo.
- [08:49]
Scott Free
Yeah, I'm enjoying the swag myself. Represent accelerated culture with the fine, fine buttons, among other things.
- [08:57]
Lori
But not the hat because it's been too hot.
- [09:00]
Scott Free
Yeah, well. Oh yeah. Oh, they get the hat. Oh, yeah.
- [09:03]
Lori
Yeah, they get the hat deluxe. Yeah. Thank you, Margo.
- [09:09]
Scott Free
Yeah. Margot. Yes. Thank you for listening. I get reports of her enjoying the podcast through my brother. And so shout out. Margo. A new. It doesn't come up often, but a new, very brief section. Much like in a newspaper or magazine, there will be an errata or clarification section. So regular listener jdog, who has gotten his own shouts out in the past, you will recall he listens to us while running. About an hour after the and the Rest episode came out, J Dog contacted me directly and told me that he had actually interviewed Consolidated for the Wayne State University newspaper while he was a student there. And he specifically addressed with them the quote on one of their records about, yes, we are hypocrites, but for the left and how he got a real kick out of that and he thought that was brilliant and. And Consolidated corrected him and said, that's actually a Woody Allen quote. So J Dog then passed that correction onto us. So thank you, jdog, for keeping us on the straight and narrow, or at least letting us know what sources our sources are quoting.
- [10:31]
Lori
Yeah, no, thank you. Thanks. J Dog and I believe that our guests are ready for the interview, so we're going to invite them in right now. Well, everybody, we've been promising it for a while now, but they are finally here. The ocean Blue. We have David. Oh, gosh, I should have asked you how you pronounce your last name. David Shelzel.
- [10:57]
David Shelzel
Shelzel. Yes.
- [10:59]
Lori
Thank goodness. We have David Shelzel, who is the lead singer, and Peter Anderson, the drummer. And thank you both for being here. I know you guys are busy on tour.
- [11:11]
Peter Anderson
Thanks for having us.
- [11:12]
Scott Free
Yes, thanks. This is a big deal for us. We, as Laurie said, have been trying to get this interview for some time and have been talking about it occasionally on episodes here and there, and that it's finally come to fruition is a big deal for us. So we're just really excited to meet you. Really excited you're here. Thanks for coming.
- [11:34]
David Shelzel
Our pleasure.
- [11:35]
Scott Free
Right on. Okay. Yeah. So it's well known that the founding members of the band met in junior high school and that you started playing out while in high school and that you actually got signed to Sire Records while you were still in high school. Can you talk a little bit about that experience? And, I mean, it's an unusual one within the rock world. So how crazy was that train that you were on from high school students in Hershey, Pennsylvania, to burgeoning rock stars?
- [12:10]
David Shelzel
Well, I guess a couple of things. You know, it's true. We met when we were in junior high school and we were Friends, the four or the three of us, I guess, Bobby and Steve and I. And we started the band with a group of friends, but we kind of just played in each other's basements. We didn't really have a lot of shows out until we were in high school. And the thing that connected all of us was our love of music. And in those days it was the music that we found out about through word of mouth. I mean, when MTV came around seeing bands on shows like 120 Minutes and the College radio we could get, but it was mostly word of mouth, you know, like we would share cassette tapes and that sort of thing of bands that came across our radar. We probably would have said it was new wave or punk or something like that, but it wasn't. You know, the hair metal bands and the blues bands and the sort of syrupy pop that. That was kind of prevalent in the 80s and central Pennsylvania. Early on we realized too that, or at least I realized, you know, we weren't super talented as musicians and it was actually easier to play our own music. And I really became interested in writing stuff. We really became interested in sort of doing our own thing. So we worked a lot on our own music. And when we started playing out, it was a bit of a challenge to find places to play. I mean, there weren't, first of all, there weren't a lot of places to play in south central Pennsylvania. So we sort of struggled to find a place in that world. But then we, we ran into a young guy who was managing another band from our area and he, he started finding places for us to play. And a lot of them were colleges or all age clubs. And that's sort of how we, we got our footing was playing these places, figuring out how to play live. You know, Scott, it really wasn't a long road, to be honest. I mean, we, we played out maybe a year or two before we started getting the opportunity to do showcasing for labels and then get the deal. So we were very, very green when we signed. And the other thing that I'd add is I don't think we fully appreciated how lucky we were. I know we didn't fully appreciate how lucky we were. It all seemed like, I wouldn't say natural, but it was like, yeah, this is what we want to do. And now we got the deal. I mean, put down to naivete more than arrogance, I just think we didn't fully appreciate how lucky. I mean, of course we felt lucky and we were really excited to be on sire. It was like of all the labels that were interested in us, it was our favorite because so many of our bands that we grew up loving and. And, you know, so putting on a pestle were on that label. So it was super exciting. But another way, it was kind of just a natural progression. It. And we were much more interested in making records than sort of building a big local following. By the time we signed, we. We did have a little bit of a local following, but for the most part, that didn't really happen until the record came out and our record sort of broke on college radio, modern rock radio. 120 minutes or whatever it was in those days.
- [15:37]
Scott Free
Sure. One thing just about influences and your songwriting process. Like, from the very beginning, I would say I saw comparisons made, but maybe it was me making them. Comparing you guys to Ekko and the Bunnyman, but that is a high bar. Like, that is daunting from a songwriting and production standpoint, I would think. So how then did your influences and Idols even. How did that shape your songwriting and how you approached playing your instruments? Production? Your drummer at the time, I want to say, was helping with the engineering and recording. True.
- [16:17]
David Shelzel
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's actually how he became our drummer, because we didn't. We didn't grow up with Rob, our. Our original drummer. We met him after we had actually started playing out, and he was a little older than we were, and he was. I mean, if there was one really good musician in the group, historically, it's always been the drums. Rob and now Peter. I mean, that's one secret to being a successful band is find yourself a very, very good drummer. It covers a multitude of sins on all the other instruments. But, yeah, so Rob was. He was a really good recording engineer and I think helped us record our original demos. He was really good at production, so, I mean, he really brought a lot of talent to the group and a little more experience in the recording area. But you had another question there, Scott, about how those bands that we got compared to early on affected our songwriting. And I think it's nothing mysterious. It's like every other artist, you know, you're influenced or you fall in love with music.
- [17:19]
Lori
Right?
- [17:19]
David Shelzel
That's. As a human being growing up a kid, you fall in love with music. And we fell in love with bands, you know, early on, it was early U2, loved, early U2 REM, the Smiths, Echo and the Bunnyman, a lot of other bands on Sire, you know, the Pretenders, the Cure. And so it was what we heard that was passed back and forth among us. And Our friends and all of that was how we thought about music. And I mean, it's how I learned how to play guitar, by listening to Pete Buck and the Edge and Will Sargent and Bernie Sumner of New Order. You know, those guys were the kind of guitar players I really loved. And I loved them in part because I could actually figure out what they were doing. I mean, they're all brilliant and. But they're all accessible too. And they were all very much centered around the songs.
- [18:16]
Scott Free
It's hooks and melody. It's not flashy, fretboard speed God stuff you're not going for.
- [18:23]
Lori
Exactly.
- [18:23]
Scott Free
Homestead.
- [18:25]
David Shelzel
Right, right. So that affected us a lot as a band. I mean, the bands we loved, we understood and you know, all those influences made it out into the music we were making.
- [18:35]
Naomi Carmack
Right on the 1990s, my very favorite decade, especially for music. This is Dope Nostalgia and I'm your host, Naomi Carmack. And every week we revisit the era that brought us Hammer Pants, Crystal, Pepsi, Pogs, Hypercolor, Pokemon, and some of the greatest songs of all time on Dope Nostalgia. Not only do I have episodes where I talk about the big artists of the 90s with friends, but sometimes those big artists come on the show. Past guests include Naughty By Nature, George Lamond, Alana Miles, Color Me Bad, Biff, Naked Ed, the Sock, Shakespeare's Sister Too Unlimited, the Funky Bunch, Technotronic, Rosala, Tara Kemp, Mr. Big Honeymoon, Sweet Ripe Said Fred, and so many more. Dope Nostalgia, a podcast made for 90s kids like me. You can find us on Spotify, Apple Music, Podbean, Stitcher, and wherever podcasts are served.
- [19:37]
Scott Free
So the self titled debut album kind of blows up, at least within the context of mtv. You are touring extensively with, I want to say, the Mighty Lemon Drops. Was that part of that early era?
- [19:52]
David Shelzel
Yeah, we started, we did a tour on our own of us, matter of fact, I can remember when we first played Boston on that tour. Our first single was Breaking and we're in Boston this afternoon playing here tomorrow. And that, that tour, we were on our own headlining, but it, you know, it was a modest tour. And then in, I think it was January to maybe the end of March, we toured with two other bands on the label, the Muddy Lemon Drops and John Wesley Harding. And that was a much bigger tour, but also of the US and Canada, I think.
- [20:27]
Lori
Very cool.
- [20:28]
Peter Anderson
That was the first time I saw the band.
- [20:31]
David Shelzel
That's part of the up.
- [20:32]
Scott Free
Your tour? Yeah.
- [20:33]
Peter Anderson
My Lemon Drops. Yep.
- [20:34]
David Shelzel
In the main room.
- [20:36]
Peter Anderson
First Avenue main room in Minneapolis.
- [20:37]
David Shelzel
Yeah, yeah, I remember that. Tour. Because when I got out of the.
- [20:41]
Scott Free
Bus.
- [20:43]
David Shelzel
Well, first of all, I was dating a girl in Minneapolis. We won't tell you that story. But got out of the bus and it was so cold. And I went into what was probably now Sonny's office. And I remember putting my. This is. This is a side tangent I'll talk with Peter about later.
- [21:01]
Scott Free
But it was cool to play the.
- [21:02]
David Shelzel
Main room in Minneapolis. That was great.
- [21:04]
Scott Free
Yeah.
- [21:04]
David Shelzel
The heyday in First Avenue. Main room, yeah.
- [21:08]
Scott Free
Oh, wow.
- [21:09]
Lori
First Avenue. Yeah. Okay, so since this episode primarily is focusing on Cerulean, do you have any stories that you want to tell about the writing of those songs or the creation of that album or.
- [21:26]
David Shelzel
Yeah, I could talk about that record all afternoon. I think it's kind of a singular record in our collection in that it was written in the shortest amount of time. And it was also probably the least of the first four records on the major labels. It's the only one where there was a real sort of album concept behind it. I mean, I think we really wanted to do a record that sort of set a mood and a tone from beginning to end. And the first record really chronicles our youth. All those songs were written in junior high and high school. They're all kind of toe tappers. It's. It's happy, it's youthful, It's. And the second record, I think, is. Is a little bit deeper and darker and more atmospheric. I mean, I wanted to paint a mood with those songs. We really weren't thinking about singles at all. It was really just like. I mean, the records I was into at the time were more like that. Like, the lot of the stuff on the 4 AD label, like the Cocteau Twins records or this Mortal Coil or even, like, Roxy Music's Avalon, I really got into at that time, too, and just, you know, records that, for me, you listen to as a. As an album, and it sets a mood. And that's really what we were trying to do. We actually recorded it here in Massachusetts at Longview Farm out in Western Mass. And then I think, finished up in Medford. No, was it Medford? A Blue Jay studio just outside of Boston. And so it had a more northern quality to it than the first record, which was done in mostly where we grew up in London. And, yeah, it was also self produced. We produced it ourselves, versus the first record where we worked with these really great producers and subsequent records, too. So there's a lot of things that are distinctive about it, but those are a few that spring to mind.
- [23:26]
Lori
Thank you. It's My favorite. Out of all your discography, and you've got such good stuff. But Cerulean Scott will tell you, I've been talking about it for, like, the last six months, how this is my favorite album by you guys, so.
- [23:39]
David Shelzel
Oh, thank you. And you know, I will say, Laurie, I hear a lot of fans tell us their favorite record, and Cerulean is the one I hear probably the most. So that's. That's cool. I think you're not alone.
- [23:53]
Lori
So then what has it got to be like now that you're touring? This is what, 30 boy math. 34 years. Thank you, Scott. 34 years after this album came out, 36 years after your first album, and to be playing these songs again, to be getting the reaction from the fans, what kind of reception are you getting and what does it feel like? And maybe, you know, Peter, I know you weren't on the recording of this, but what's it been like touring with the band and playing these old chestnuts?
- [24:28]
Scott Free
Well, it's great.
- [24:29]
Peter Anderson
I mean, it's great playing the deeper cuts and seeing people react and tell you how much they love that song, like Hurricane Amore, Circus Animals, things like that, that we. I mean, there are certain songs that we will always play on a show, you know, like Ballerina and Mercury. Mercury. Yep, yep. But, yeah, people. People really are having a positive reaction to the deep cuts. You can tell that they're familiar with the record and that they're there to hear it. It's been cool. We've kind of been playing the second record, Cerulean, first in the evening too, because I think. Which plays into the idea of setting a mood and sort of letting that play out and then having the kind of energy party of the first record in the second half of the show. But, man, yeah, I love it. Especially the way a song like Hurricane Amora, which is. Which is a fabulous, you know, soundscape on. On the record, really, it has turned into sort of a visceral shoegaze jam live. You know, the way we take it out a little bit longer than the record and. And the guys really, like, get into exploring the guitar stuff. So.
- [25:48]
Scott Free
So good, man.
- [25:48]
David Shelzel
It's.
- [25:49]
Peter Anderson
Yeah, it's great. There's a lot of great drum parts on that record. And it's been interesting to learn about adapting some of the drum parts on the record, which were very studio based. Like, there's a couple of songs that are played with brushes, for instance, and that can be hard to translate live. I know we've tried and succeeded to a certain degree, but Also then adapting and go like, well, maybe we play this one with sticks. Or maybe I use these funny little different combinations to achieve the sound of the record in a live setting. Whereas when you're mixing a record, you could just turn the brushes up, you know what I mean? It's harder to make that happen live. So it's been a challenge too to make sure that all the nuances of the record come across in a way that people can be satisfied with being.
- [26:41]
David Shelzel
Yeah, and I, I loyal to the.
- [26:43]
Peter Anderson
Sound of the record.
- [26:44]
David Shelzel
Yeah. And I, I, I think that's, I think that's an important thing too. Like, I know I, I, I can be disappointed sometimes when I go see a band that I love and, you know, it's like, boy, I'd rather just hear the record.
- [26:59]
Scott Free
Right.
- [26:59]
David Shelzel
So we, we have a lot of loyalty to the recordings, don't want to stray too far from them, but we also want the performances to have life to them as well. And I think Pete in particular strikes a great balance on that. The other thing about playing the record, you know, 34 years later or whatever, I think the incredible thing about music is it transcends space and time. You know, there was a time, particularly like when I wrote those songs, where I was experiencing something that then made its way, or thinking something, or feeling something that made its way into that music and then it lives there. And then people who heard it when they were young, when it came out, it connected with them in that way. And then as time goes on and you come back to the music, it can unearth all those things for you again, which is like, it's a surreal, sublime kind of experience.
- [27:58]
Scott Free
It's emotional time travel, right?
- [28:00]
David Shelzel
Totally, totally. And then the other level that was like, these songs hit me differently. Like, I don't know why in the world I was singing about certain things lyrically as a 20 year old and now like, oh, yeah, I kind of get it. Like, I don't know if I said this at the show you guys were at, but when life was easy.
- [28:23]
Scott Free
Yeah.
- [28:23]
David Shelzel
On this record, you know, I, I hadn't experienced all the hardship and pain of life when I wrote that song. I, I had, but on a very, very small scale.
- [28:37]
Peter Anderson
Say, David, was life ever easier than when you wrote that song?
- [28:41]
Scott Free
Right. Wrote that at what, 20, 21?
- [28:44]
David Shelzel
Yeah. And like, you know, now as a, as an older man, it's like, oh my God, I had no idea what life would have in store for me, but I can experience that song anew, which, which for me feels great. I don't know if it hits other people that way, but for me, I feel like, oh, I can be proud of this song. Like it's traveled in time with me from that, you know, tough sort of coming of age period, which is hard to sort of. I don't want to say midlife crisis, but you know, midlife despondency and melancholy and, and. And trauma that. That many of us have experienced on a big and personal scale in the last five years. So, yeah, you know, I, I like that about this record. It's not unhopeful, but it's, I think, also very reflective. Reflective, yeah, for sure.
- [29:38]
Scott Free
Seems like a good spot since we're getting towards the end of our time here to move the clock forward. Then you all have been active in the years since then. Eight albums total, I believe, plus a couple EPs in there. I have read that you have a new album that you are working on currently, or is that accurate?
- [30:00]
David Shelzel
Well, it's accurate in the sense that I think we're always working on music. I mean, I'm always writing stuff. It's not as formulaic on the grid as Pete would say, or Calendar as it was when we were on major labels. With major labels, you had deadlines, you had a schedule to keep, you booked, studio time, pre production and all that. It's much more casual. What we do unfolds much more slowly. When we did our last record, Kings and Queens, Knaves and Thieves, that had been like our first record in 2013.
- [30:38]
Scott Free
Was, yeah, six years or something. Six, yeah.
- [30:41]
David Shelzel
And I rem. I remember in Ultramarine was like almost 10. So I feel like, yeah, it becomes a matter of years until we get to the point where we feel like, oh, yeah, this is a collection of songs that feels like a record, feels like an album. So we're in that process now. I don't. I don't know how long it'll take to get it done.
- [31:03]
Scott Free
Well, I know that we're looking forward to it and you got a lot of fans out there who are anxiously awaiting it, but know that you have very busy lives outside of the rock stardom, which is also amazing to me. David, you are, I want to say, an attorney in Minneapolis.
- [31:23]
David Shelzel
Yes, yes, I am.
- [31:24]
Scott Free
And other members of the bands with other careers and that. So this is just the thing you do when you are so artistically moved and have the time to get together. And it's a slower pace, but lets you really come up with some really tight, meaningful work that you're not under that other pressure. Right.
- [31:44]
David Shelzel
Um, yeah, you know, I guess the way I've always thought about it, since, I mean, really since we started, was like, music is important to all of us. It's a huge part of our lives. It's who we are. And along with that, we're a lot of other things. We're sons and brothers and all that kind of stuff, and we do other things with our lives. We like other things. Early on for me, it was going to college and all that kind of stuff. So it's all part of the one person that each of us are and what we do together. So, yeah, it's true we do these other things, but I feel like, I guess I don't want to leave people with the impression, like, music is sort of a side hobby for us now. It's probably more important to all of us now than ever.
- [32:34]
Lori
And you're an intellectual property lawyer, right?
- [32:38]
David Shelzel
Yes.
- [32:38]
Lori
Okay. So I hope that you won't come after us for putting little 45 second clips of your songs in the episode.
- [32:45]
David Shelzel
Well, if. If it's Cerulean, it'll be. It'll be Warner Brothers, so.
- [32:49]
Lori
Oh, okay. All right, I will. Okay. We can. We. We could hire you, right? We can hire.
- [32:58]
David Shelzel
We'll. We'll claim fair use. That's fine.
- [33:01]
Scott Free
Well, you know, this podcast, we have been going chronologically. When I signed on a little over a year ago, we were in 1990. We have just, with this episode, finished 1991. So, you know, we'll get to your 2025 album sometime in the 2000 and 70s, I feel like.
- [33:21]
David Shelzel
Nice. Yeah, definitely book me for that podcast.
- [33:26]
Lori
Oh, I'm writing that on my calendar. I'm writing it now.
- [33:31]
Scott Free
Right on. Fellas, thank you so much for joining us once again. Great conversation. Great talking to you. Um, good luck on the remainder of the tour.
- [33:42]
David Shelzel
Yeah, we're playing through the rest of the year. Um, you know, and I. I think probably some dates in 2026, too. People can, you know, follow us on socials and follow the band site for where we're playing. I think if you've got listeners in Chicago. Ooh, maybe that those shows aren't announced, are they?
- [34:00]
Peter Anderson
Well, there's a couple new shows being announced next week closer to Chicago. Well, if your listeners are in Ohio or Michigan, we might have a little announcement next week.
- [34:14]
Scott Free
Oh, really? Yeah, I spend a lot of time in Michigan. I may be seeing you soon. All right, cool.
- [34:21]
Lori
Thank you, guys. This was really, really cool, and I'm sorry it took us so long to finally get together, but I feel like it was definitely Worth it.
- [34:29]
Scott Free
Great.
- [34:29]
David Shelzel
Well, thank you both for taking the time and thanks for doing the podcast on Cerulean. Appreciate it.
- [34:35]
Scott Free
Our pleasure.
- [34:36]
Lori
Thank you for creating such a great album that all these years later, I'm still listening to. I really. It's a very important album to me, so.
- [34:46]
Scott Free
Wow.
- [34:47]
David Shelzel
Thank you. That means a lot.
- [34:48]
Lori
Yeah. Wow. That was really cool.
- [34:52]
David Shelzel
Wow.
- [34:53]
Scott Free
It actually happened. Can you even believe it?
- [34:56]
Lori
I can barely believe it myself. And I was there. But no, that's really, really exciting. Thank you again to the band for carving out some time from their touring schedule to meet with us for a little bit.
- [35:09]
Scott Free
It's still on tour and you can catch them in your town if you are in one of the following towns.
- [35:16]
Lori
So it looks like August they're going to be in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and Minneapolis, Minnesota. September in Winston Salem, North Carolina, and Louisville, Kentucky, and October in Annapolis, Maryland. They can be found on the web@theoceanblue.com.
- [35:36]
Scott Free
I think I might be able to get them a concert goer in Annapolis, Maryland. Rage, go see the Ocean Blue. You remember liking the Ocean Blue back in college. They're even better now. Do it, buddy. Yeah, his name is Rage. All my friends have the best nicknames.
- [35:53]
Lori
I don't have a nickname.
- [35:55]
Scott Free
I mean, not one you know about.
- [35:58]
Lori
Okay, all right, all right. That's a conversation for another time. But, hey, you know, speaking of their live tour, Scott, you and I saw them live here in Chicago on your birthday. We did, we did. And that was your first time seeing them live, wasn't it?
- [36:20]
Scott Free
It was, in fact.
- [36:21]
Lori
And what did you think?
- [36:23]
Scott Free
Man, the show was so good. The band is so tight. They're clearly loving being a touring band and they're just having such a good time. They're knocking it out of the park performance wise, musicianship wise. And the crowd, I mean, this is an aging Gen X crowd. Make no mistake. There were not a lot of people in the house under, let's call it 40, who were not there with their parents.
- [36:56]
Lori
Okay.
- [36:57]
Scott Free
But the crowd was so locked in and having such a blast. Yeah, it was a great time. We're going to be talking in depth about Cerulean, but you can't really talk about the Ocean Blue and Cerulean without talking about the ocean blues origins and how they just sort of blew up. Because that was an absolutely huge story when their debut album, the Ocean Blue, came out. These guys, when that album came out, had just graduated high school. They had gotten signed to Sire Records while they were still in high school.
- [37:36]
Lori
They were personally signed by Seymour Stein. He co founded Sire Records and was vice president of Warner Brothers Records. His name is really kind of synonymous with the new wave era of the 70s and 80s because of some of the acts that he signed. Talking Heads, Pretenders. If I'm not mistaken, he signed Madonna.
- [37:58]
Scott Free
Dang.
- [37:59]
Lori
So the guy that signed Madonna signed four teenagers from Hershey, Pennsylvania. And the rest, they say, is history.
- [38:10]
Scott Free
And that was part of this huge publicity push that felt pretty organic, you know, no doubt there was some Sire Records marketing behind it, but MTV embraced them because this was a band of teens. This was a band from the demographic that MTV was pitching itself at. And they were kind of, in a small way, or at least for a small subset of the population, kind of generational heroes. If you were a teenager or an early 20something and had any dreams of becoming a rock star, these were your contemporaries who were literally doing it right now. And there was something really captivating about that narrative, that. And they were just freaking adorable. Lead singer David Shelzel, with his mop of blonde hair, kind of a bowl cut, looked a lot like Tim Burgess. In fact, from the Charlatans.
- [39:11]
Lori
I could see it.
- [39:12]
Scott Free
Yeah, these were kids your age and they were living the rock star dream, but in like a kind of wholesome way. They were not part of the rave scene of Madchester. They were not part of the slacker scene of Seattle and the grunge set. These were just four guys who look like they could have come out of a J. Crew catalog. And they were making really tight new wave indie pop music. Another source that I quote from somewhat here is from Stephen Hoffman Music Forums. I don't know, I guess it's a thing, but I read a lot in there. A discussion thread called Any fans of the Ocean Blue from August 25, 2022. There was always a comparison to the Smiths, but I don't think that's entirely accurate. It's more that the Smiths was an influence, among others. They were definitely coming out of the jangle pop wave of college rock in the late 80s and early 90s, much of which is indebted to Johnny Marr's guitar innovations. But I think if you listen to them, you can hear a myriad of other sounds. Bands as varied as Cocteau Twins, Echo and the Bunnyman, the Beautiful south and the Lilac Time, among others. Even shades of REM and the the. Given their timeline, one can certainly put the Ocean Blue in the company of their contemporaries at the time. Bands like the Sundays and the Trash Can Sinatras.
- [40:47]
Lori
Ooh, yeah, you know, thinking about bands that are similar, I guess this was one of their contemporaries. Do you remember the Railway Children?
- [40:59]
Scott Free
You know, I have in my reading about the Ocean Blue, I saw the Railway Children cited a lot.
- [41:06]
Lori
Oh, really?
- [41:08]
Scott Free
And I don't know the Railway Children at all.
- [41:11]
Lori
They were on Factory Records and Tony Wilson was really hyping them up as the next New Order. They had a couple really good songs, but they just really.
- [41:23]
Scott Free
Failed to blow up.
- [41:25]
Lori
Yeah, I do see some similarities between the Ocean Blue and the Railway Children. They were both, you know, young indie bands with a lot of jangly guitars. Vocalist that is maybe not traditionally trained, I guess, but to me that makes it more real. You know what I mean? This is. These are songs that come from the heart.
- [41:50]
Scott Free
Okay, so I do have an interesting quote on that because David Shelzel is himself a critic of his own voice, and I think maybe unfairly so, but yes, to your point, he is not a classically trained singer and with deep vibrato. But this is not opera, it's new wave. And the heroes of the early new wave era also didn't necessarily have classically strong voices. But as long as it was expressive, it gave the mood and carried that melody. I don't know what more you want, man, but David Shelzel himself does address that. I was and remain a pretty weak singer and guitar player. But John Porter, the producer who produced their first album and who had also worked on the Smiths, how soon is now in the same studio that they were recording their debut album. John Porter was amazing. He's a sweetheart of a man and he loved our music and nurtured us around. He was a perfect first producer to work with. Very patient for a weak singer like me who can't just get up and sing a couple takes and it's done. He's unnecessarily dragging himself here, but whatever. It was really helpful to understand the process, how to work with headphones and microphone technique. You know, that first experience, recording their debut album allowed him to embrace the voice that he had. And yeah, maybe it took some studio working and multi tracking and editing, but David Shelzel will tell you that he is much more comfortable as a studio musician, that touring is necessary and that they enjoy it when they do it, but that really, for him, music is a studio art and, you know, that's where they cut their teeth.
- [44:03]
Lori
So their first album was called the Ocean Blue and that came out in 89. There were a couple songs on that album that got quite a bit of airplay, specifically drifting Falling is the one that I'm thinking of and I think maybe between Something and Nothing.
- [44:18]
Scott Free
Between Something and Nothing, I think is the one a lot of people know.
- [44:22]
Lori
Yeah.
- [44:22]
Scott Free
So who all is in that band?
- [44:25]
Lori
Okay, well, you mentioned David Shelzel on vocals and guitar. He's also the principal songwriter. Steve Lau on keyboards, Rob Minig on drums, and quote, unquote, other voices. So I guess backup vocals, and Bobby Matan on bass. Now, those were the four original band members. They'd really been influenced by a lot of their label mates on Sire Records. The Cure, Echo and the Bunnyman, the Smiths. And you can kind of hear that this album takes a little bit of a turn. It's a little bit more almost dream pop, you know. I mean, it's got the jangly, ethereal guitars.
- [45:11]
Scott Free
Oh, yeah. There are a couple tracks that get right into shoegaze territory, for that matter.
- [45:16]
Lori
Absolutely, yes. Now, I did find an article online. It's called why you should like the Ocean Blue. It's written by a guy named John C. Hughes. It's on popdose.com John Hughes wrote. While Cerulean was a great leap forward for the band, vocalist David Schelzel told me when we met in 1994 that it almost spelled the end for the Ocean Blue. Shelzel said he wrote all of the album alone and the less accessible sound was achieved with less of the other band members input than before. Now, I don't know that I agree that Cerulean was less accessible than their previous album, but on the first album it was really more of a collaborative process. And the second album, for whatever reason, it fell mostly to David. And I think that there was a lot of pressure on him, specifically from Sire Records. But also there's a little bit of a beginning of conflict with some of the members of the band. I think maybe resenting that they don't necessarily have the input that they wanted.
- [46:30]
Scott Free
Fair. Yeah, there are a couple sources from which I will be quoting somewhat extensively. One of those, tapeop.com issue number 133 from September of 2019, an interview by Larry Crane with the Ocean Blues. David Shel. I really kind of retreated and when we worked on our second record, we took a much different approach. It was less about songs and it was more about the sonic landscape and the sound of that record. I had fallen in love with records like Roxy Music, Avalon or Cocteau Twins, Victoria Land. You put on those records and it's a whole vibe from beginning to end. The interviewer. It takes you someplace else David. Exactly. There are songs, of course, but I really wanted a record that sounded like that.
- [47:22]
Lori
The emotion really comes through. And I think, again, because he wrote all of these songs as well, I mean, you would expect that to be the case. But is there anything else that you want to say about the album before we go into the track by track?
- [47:36]
Scott Free
One last thing on that touring versus recording thing addresses that. I'm kind of an introverted guy. I'm not made for the stage by any stretch. The reason I do what I do and the reason I did then was I wanted to make records. That's how I related to music. I didn't see live bands in Hershey, Pennsylvania. So for him, records was where it was at. And that's what they continue to do to this date. But, you know, they also tour to support it because that's just the reality of being a musician these days.
- [48:10]
Lori
Right. You know, as I said earlier, I think they sound as good, if not better live. So, David, if you're listening. Yeah. Don't be so hard on yourself, man.
- [48:20]
Scott Free
I mean, it's not the self deprecation is part of the charm. And even on stage, he does a bit of it and you're just like, oh, no, I'm on this guy's side.
- [48:28]
Lori
The album Cerulean was recorded at Longview Farm and Blue Jay Recording Studios in Massachusetts.
- [48:35]
Scott Free
That is true.
- [48:36]
Lori
And this album was Produced by Pat McCarthy along with David and Rob, the drummer.
- [48:47]
Scott Free
Yes. So Longview Farm Studios in Western Massachusetts is a residential studio. It's a barn with a really old house. And so they spent a lot of time there. They also did some recording in Concord, Massachusetts. And then they mixed the album in New York City. New York City. Get a rope at the Hit Factory. So the band talks a bit about the sort of cultural whiplash from this rural, idyllic, super quiet farmhouse to bam, you're in New York City. But, hey, the results, top notch here.
- [49:27]
Lori
All right, so I guess then let's start listening to the album, shall we?
- [49:32]
Scott Free
Let's do that. Well, with that, let's get into the reason we do this show. And that is the track by track, Deep dive. We'll start it with track one. Freezing up.
- [49:55]
Rob Minig
This, I call myself. These are all my friends.
- [50:08]
Scott Free
Back. Okay, like, this could be a Cocteau Twins track. When it starts off. You could easily mistake it for one. And then David Schozel's vocals come in and. Okay, not the Cocktail Twins, but I mean, right? This is straight up shoegaze, is it not?
- [50:49]
Lori
Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And Bobby's bass, just from the very beginning, it's so strong. This is a hell of a way to open the album.
- [50:58]
Scott Free
Oh, yeah, and also the drumming, like I'm still. And I spent some time trying to break it down. Having a tough time deciding what time signature this is. But the drumming in particular is, yeah, just this rapid fire, but not like bombastic rapid fire, just like delicate but fast. And I. Yeah, I think the rhythm section in particular is just killing it here. Drummer Rob Minig had actually produced their original demos. That got them noticed and got them that record deal, had a TAS 8 track recorder and so was able to do considerably more complex initial demos than a lot of bands can self produce, usually four tracks and whatnot. But as they were working in London with Rob Porter on their debut album, Rob Minig was studying and stepping his game up. And when it came to the production of Cerulean, yeah, they were co producers and he was the main Ocean Blue member who was doing that production side. So Rob Min's drumming on this one. Yeah, it just gives the song this energy. But still it has the ethereal guitar thing going that really puts it pretty firmly in the shoegaze territory. And you know, that's kind of a Cocteau Twins ish thing, or My Bloody Valentine for that matter, to have that swirling ethereal guitar bit. But while the rhythm section is really going for it. Right?
- [52:36]
Lori
Absolutely. Now, lyrically, I'm curious what you think of the lyrics on this, because I know that you, you. You are a boater.
- [52:45]
Scott Free
I am a sailor. It's true.
- [52:47]
Lori
You are. You're a seaman.
- [52:52]
Scott Free
Here's one of.
- [52:56]
Lori
Sorry, I derailed it.
- [53:00]
Scott Free
One of the things in general about lyrical content of most of the songs on the album. All of the songs on the album, with just a couple exceptions, come in at around four minutes, a little bit less, a little bit more. But right around four minutes, most of the lyrics to these songs are just maybe 16 lines of lyrics total. Like they're really short. David Shel's delivery is a pretty laidback pace. He is not tearing through a lot of words in any given line. He's not packing a lot of lines into each verse and not packing a lot of verses into the song. It's much more easygoing, poetic delivery, I feel like lyrically can be relatively spare and impressionistic. And, you know, this song, I think, is a good example of that. It opens out this. I call my sailboat, these are all my friends that beyonds the shoreline and that is where it ends. Okay. A little simple, but fine. High and dry are we? The one that I think you were probably thinking I was going to like, and you are, right. High and dry are we? Stinging size. The salt air tasted on your skin. Stomach's sense of flying. You know, it gives you the whole feeling of sailing. Doesn't have to get too into terminology. Doesn't have to get too into the visuals. It is the sensation of sailing and, at least for me, relatable content.
- [54:44]
Lori
You know, I like what you said about it being impressionistic. Right. I mean, thinking back to the impressionist painters, it was the idea. It was just kind of giving you a glance, a quick glance, you know, at something. And I feel like that that's what he's doing lyrically here, too. So I think that's a really, really apt comparison.
- [55:08]
Scott Free
Right on.
- [55:09]
Lori
Yeah. Well, I guess that brings us to the next track, which is called Cerulean.
- [55:22]
Rob Minig
Blue skies come down on me White flower in you had it rain 40 days, you know had it rain 40 nights, you know the blue skies come down on me Careful what you say. You said that yesterday. Tell me something new. It's always, always you.
- [56:10]
Lori
Scott. This song is my happy place.
- [56:12]
Peter Anderson
Is that right?
- [56:14]
Lori
Yeah.
- [56:15]
Scott Free
Understandable.
- [56:16]
Lori
This song just makes me ridiculously happy.
- [56:19]
Scott Free
All right, so when we were talking about going to see the ocean blue on my birthday the end of April, and people would be asking me, what are you going to do for your birthday? And I would be like, oh, I'm going to see the ocean blue. They'd be like, I don't know who that is. And I'm like, well, they were banned and told a little bit of the origin story. They're like, well, what do they sound like? And the best I could come up with, and I think it's pretty good, was that they sound like a light echo in the Bunnyman. And that sounds like it could be taken as a diss, but it's not light as in lightweight. It's more like light as in not dark. Bright. I suppose it has that sort of lush feel with traditional rock instrumentation, but janglier, but a ton of reverb. And they love reverb. Right. But not the darkness that Echo and the Bunnyman could sometimes have. Right?
- [57:17]
Lori
Absolutely. Yeah. No songs about Killing Moon.
- [57:20]
Scott Free
Right. But, yeah, it's like Echo and the Bunnyman, who clearly listened to a lot of the Smiths and Tears for Fears and early New Order, but largely ignored the electronics part. And I'm gonna venture a guess and say that the Ocean Blue probably also listened to quite a Bit of icicle works and maybe big country. I was going to say that I plan to ask them that when we interview them, but by this point, we've already done that.
- [57:48]
Lori
You know, there's a couple different places in this song. It rained 40 days. You know, it rained 40 nights, you know, 40 day rain. You know what that's from, right?
- [58:00]
Scott Free
No, Laurie, tell me.
- [58:02]
Lori
Oh, shut up. You do. Come on. Yeah. No, I'm assuming that that's gotta be a reference to the story of Noah and the ark, but, you know, I always appreciate a. A good reference like that.
- [58:17]
Scott Free
Well, I mean, this may well be neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned. What's interesting to me is the way that this band keeps a recurring motif not just within a song or within an album, but within their entire career. Right. Like, yeah, if you look at 1996, see the ocean blue, 1999, Davy Jones, locker, 2014, waterworks. And even within the context then of just this album, our first two songs are both water themed, whether sailing or flood. Like, you know, I can. As an English major, way, way back in the day, I can appreciate dedication to the recurring theme. And they. They really are going for it here.
- [59:12]
Lori
And especially the part where David name checks the band. There's a line. You said that yesterday. Tell me something new. It's always ocean blue, right? Normally, I don't like it when bands name check themselves, but it just. It fits so well into the song. And every time I've seen them live, when they get to that line, the crowd just all cheers, you know? Yeah, yeah. This was the second single released off of the album, and it charted on the Billboard Alternative Songs chart at number 16.
- [59:48]
Scott Free
Pretty good.
- [59:50]
Lori
Yeah, pretty good.
- [59:52]
Scott Free
All right, well, then that brings us to track three. Marigold.
- [60:13]
Rob Minig
She makes me crazy like vowels make me crazy My male gold Like a fist full of daisies or pocket full of posies are my goals.
- [60:28]
Scott Free
Colors all.
- [60:28]
Rob Minig
Collide now in meadows and in daydreams oh golden be crying yellow raining green and singing.
- [60:54]
Scott Free
Right? So when the song opens with that sharp, staccato guitar strike, right. And then when his voice comes in, it really does remind me of early New Order, before they went to all electronic and drum machines, when they were still a guitar rock band, you know, rising from the ashes of Joy Division. And his voice does have some similarities to that of New Order lead singer Bernard Sumner. Right.
- [61:25]
Lori
Yeah, I could kind of see that. I could see it.
- [61:28]
Scott Free
That said, once the actual melody really gets going and the subject matter becomes clear, this no longer feels Like a New Order song. And it gets again, much lighter, brighter, sunnier, friendlier than Norder sometimes could be.
- [61:44]
Lori
Yes.
- [61:45]
Scott Free
One of the things I believe he talked about this in concert was that this song combines three of his passions and inspirations. Love, poetry and gardening.
- [61:59]
Lori
This is just such a sweet love song, though. It's sweet. She makes me crazy like flowers make me crazy. Well, David, why are flowers making you crazy?
- [62:12]
Scott Free
It's one of his three passions.
- [62:14]
Lori
Yeah, I guess so. So, yeah. Marigold, fistful of daisies Pocket full of posies, Forget me nots. Yeah. So it's. It's a sweet song.
- [62:28]
Scott Free
Yeah, it is very sweet to the point of. I don't want to bust on. But saccharine, it's. It's almost. It is towing that line. But, you know, you can tell he means it. I appreciate how earnest he is about it.
- [62:47]
Lori
Yeah. And me being as visual as I am.
- [62:51]
Scott Free
Yeah.
- [62:52]
Lori
We went from cerulean, which is a shade of blue, to the exact opposite side of the color wheel. Marigold is a shade of orange, right?
- [63:02]
Scott Free
Yep.
- [63:03]
Lori
So, like, these are complementary colors. See, I did pay attention in design school, ain't it? And all the colors mentioned. Daydreams of a golden hue. Crying yellow, raining green and singing blue. That's just so pretty.
- [63:18]
Scott Free
The song in concert was visually striking. The projections, which complemented the band beautifully throughout the show were flowers blooming in time lapse. So flowers just really going for it, right?
- [63:34]
Lori
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're right. And you know, again, this is really a happy song. I will say that probably about a lot of songs on this album, but this, this is a feel good album for me, definitely.
- [63:50]
Scott Free
And if this particularly sweet brand of sweetness with the flowers and the flowery lyrics are not your particular cup of floral herbal tea. Well, this is the second shortest song on the album, coming in at just 3 minutes, 7 seconds. I think it's an enjoyable little number.
- [64:12]
Lori
Okay, so then that brings us to track four. Let's listen to a separate reality.
- [64:29]
Rob Minig
And crying sober and crying so long forever more. Forever more. You never saw it, you never did it.
- [64:51]
David Shelzel
But here you are.
- [64:55]
Rob Minig
There you are. You see the one side refuse to face it. You know, the one side beginner.
- [65:14]
Scott Free
Right. So this is dream pop bordering on shoegaze, and just all sad sweetness or sweet sadness. One of those. If Marigold is just pure sweetness, this is the bittersweet version, right?
- [65:32]
Lori
I think so, yeah. And of course, you don't really know what it is that he's thinking about. What's over? Is it a relationship that's over. Is it? You know, an experience is over. But I think that's what makes it so relatable is that it could be anything.
- [65:47]
Scott Free
You never saw it, you never did it, but here you are and there you are. Yeah, he's keeping it real vague.
- [65:55]
Lori
Can we talk for a second about the production quality? Because I think especially at the very beginning of this song where it's just the drums, it's very crisp, it's very tight and then the instruments come in. The production value on this album is just absolutely fantastic.
- [66:12]
Scott Free
Oh yeah, it's really good stuff. And again, these are really young musicians and the album is being co produced by those really young musicians, foremost among them Rob Minig, the drummer. And it just sounds so damn good.
- [66:30]
Lori
Again, the jangly guitars, you can definitely hear the inspiration, not only I think from Robin Guthrie in Cocteau Twins, but also definitely some shades of Johnny Marr.
- [66:42]
Scott Free
In there too, for sure. And one of the things that when I heard this track in particular, I thought is that it feels like the Sundays and were the Sundays and influence and it's like they were more contemporaries really. But you know, I suppose Reading, Writing and Arithmetic, the Sunday's album that has. Here's where the story ends on it. Their debut album came out in 1990, so. So maybe there was a little bit of cross pollination there, but yeah, fair to say that the Ocean Blue and the Sundays both had those influences in common.
- [67:15]
Lori
Super.
- [67:16]
Scott Free
Which brings us to track five, Mercury.
- [67:34]
Rob Minig
And slipped away, ripped into, then pierced it back again, then crumpled up inside, then tossed aside and all that. It feels so bad.
- [68:16]
Scott Free
Well, first off, that is some fine chunka chucka guitar and I'm always a fan of some chucka chunka guitar, so just need to open with that.
- [68:26]
Lori
Okay.
- [68:27]
Scott Free
Then talked a little bit about how David Shelzel is tough on himself about the strength of his voice. And you know, we can disagree, we can agree, whatever, but as we said earlier, it doesn't need to be classically strong. It's new wave indie pop and his voice is clear. It hits the notes, he's expressive, wears his heart on his sleeve. Although he's like clearly pretty much a kid here and you can kind of hear that in his voice. Right? He sounds his age. That said, he really does not go easy on himself with the melody here. Repeatedly making himself hit that high note. It's an E I want to say. And then does those descending thirds down, but going back up to that E over and over and that seems to be like on the upper edge of his vocal range. And so I'm just like, dude, maybe take it easy on yourself, not just in your self assessments, but in, like, your actual songwriting. And if you feel like you don't have the strongest voice to hit those notes, like, don't make yourself hit them, like, 30 times in the song.
- [69:45]
Lori
But, you know, I. I've actually read about a number of bands where it's like, there was, like, a revelation at some point after a few albums where, oh, I should be writing this for my own vocal range. So not really sure entirely what the significance of Mercury is. I can speculate. You know, I'm into all my astrology, all my woo woo stuff. Mercury being the planet that governs communication quietly, almost elusively, almost invisibly, I found that I, for a moment, had slipped away. That's this unpredictability, you know, and that's kind of what I'm taking away from this. But it's a good song. It's so good.
- [70:33]
Scott Free
Yeah, yeah, no. No complaints here. I like lyrically, and it's a simple rhyme. Happened once, then it happened twice then it happened thrice. First of all, I'm a sucker for thrice, and people do not say thrice enough these days. And now a fourth. You know that. Did you know that, David? I don't know what we're talking about. And yet I enjoy the poetry of it, simple though it may be.
- [71:02]
Lori
You know, you talked about themes that the band comes back to from time to time. We talked about ocean and sailing and the color blue. Well, on this album, planets also seem to be a recurring theme as we're going to hear in another song.
- [71:18]
Scott Free
Well, I look forward to this.
- [71:20]
Lori
So Mercury was the third single off of the album Bold choice, and it peaked on the Billboard alternative songs chart at number 27.
- [71:32]
Scott Free
I mean, I'm no ANR rep here, but I'm just saying that I personally would not have picked Mercury as a single over breezing up.
- [71:44]
Lori
Really, Dude, I think that this is as poppy as any of the other singles, you know?
- [71:50]
Scott Free
Oh, I think it's poppy. I just don't think it's a straw, but that's just me.
- [71:56]
Lori
All right, well, you know, Monday morning quarterback, right?
- [72:00]
Scott Free
Yeah. Oh, yeah. He should have. He should have passed.
- [72:07]
Lori
That brings us to the next song. Questions of Travel.
- [72:20]
Rob Minig
Magnus Dreaming a Magnum Streaming a madness Dreaming a madness Dreaming A moon in the rain Swiss out Sweet stone of tiny German town of woods and dusky.
- [72:56]
Lori
I don't want to like this song, Scott. I don't want to.
- [73:01]
Scott Free
It's not Mandatory. We like most things on this show.
- [73:05]
Lori
But I still find it. It. It. It's an earworm. It gets stuck in my head and I can't stop singing. Singing it, you know, it must be a good song.
- [73:15]
Scott Free
Okay, fair enough.
- [73:17]
Lori
It's interesting again, lyrically. Americans dreaming of England in the rain, of Swiss Alps and snow, of tiny German towns, of ruins at dusk in Rome, of islands in the sun or Paris after hours, of miles, of Chinese walls, of ancient Grecian roads. What's the takeaway here that Americans want to be anywhere except here?
- [73:46]
Scott Free
You know, I. I think Americans are known for not getting out of America much. So all these exotic faraway lands are just a dream to them? Maybe. I. I don't know. Okay, so when you were young and this band first came on the scene and you heard this kind of jangly new wave style music and you first heard them, did you think that they were English?
- [74:16]
Lori
I don't know.
- [74:17]
Scott Free
By the time that this album came out at this point in 1991, you'd already seen the whole MTV push for their self titled debut album in 89. You know, I knew that they were American. I always knew that they were American. And yet when I hear this song and David's voice, particularly America's Dreaming, it's like, are they English? Are they trying to sound English? Were there English influences like the Smiths so strong that they just kind of started to sound like them? I don't know. There's something odd about the delivery in this one that makes me think this guy maybe listened to too much new wave and he's starting to sound like the people that he grew up listening to. But.
- [75:08]
Lori
Huh, I guess I don't hear it. But yeah. That doesn't mean you're wrong.
- [75:15]
Scott Free
I could just be making up too.
- [75:17]
Lori
Well, isn't that what we do?
- [75:19]
Scott Free
Pretty much. Welcome to podcasting.
- [75:22]
Lori
Yep. 67 episodes and so far it's all been bullshit.
- [75:29]
Scott Free
Don't stop listening.
- [75:34]
Lori
Yeah. Okay, so Scott, the next track is yours.
- [75:39]
Scott Free
That is track seven. When life was easy.
- [75:50]
Rob Minig
When life was easy My heart did soar for what the future store and life didn't please me but it's all gone now it's all gone now Gone away now it's all been gone now it's all gone now Run away now Far away.
- [76:29]
Lori
Okay, first thing I'm going to say.
- [76:32]
Scott Free
Yeah.
- [76:33]
Lori
Are those sleigh bells? I'm hearing it on my headphones.
- [76:37]
Scott Free
Yeah. If I'm honest, I stopped listening and was researching something.
- [76:41]
Lori
Okay. Yeah, the. The add kicked in, huh?
- [76:44]
Scott Free
It did. Okay, so David Schellz, a lead singer, introduced this song in concert, kind of making fun of himself. He said something along the lines of this song hits differently in your 50s than it did when I wrote it at like 20.
- [77:06]
Lori
I remember that. Yeah.
- [77:08]
Scott Free
Because the song is when life was easy and what a 20 or 22 year old is singing about. When life was easy. The things that a 20 or 22 year old looks back at with nostalgia and regret and longing. Like it's almost comical from our middle age standpoint. Right.
- [77:34]
Lori
I don't remember a time when life was easy. So I, I can't. I can't relate to that, but I do. Like again with the lyrics. Catastrophe and calamity are the norm now. And life seems like some old forgotten dream far away. But when I look into your eyes I forget myself and my size. I'm alone with you on the sea, On a crystal sea.
- [78:01]
Scott Free
The return of that recurring theme and.
- [78:05]
Lori
Another really sweet love song. You know, the person that he's singing to is his shelter from the storm. Right. His. His respite. Right.
- [78:18]
Scott Free
I mean, yes, I'd say this song he has probably aged into in a way where the sentiments being expressed makes sense from the standpoint of a middle aged, elder, middle aged man.
- [78:34]
Lori
You know, if I'm not mistaken, I. I unfortunately didn't write the song down. But I think this was the one that David also said when we saw him in concert. It's like stepping into a time machine. Even more so if you wrote the song.
- [78:49]
Scott Free
Right. That sounds right.
- [78:51]
Lori
Yeah.
- [78:52]
Scott Free
As you already quoted, catastrophe and calamity are the norm now and life seems like some old forgotten dream far away. Like this 23 year old had a major label record deal and was touring the world. But to be fair to David here, we do plenty of analysis of plenty of songs by other songwriters and bands where the lyrics are not intended to be autobiographical and they're telling a story and they've got a narrative and another character's perspective. So while I do find it hilarious that a 23 year old is talking about when times were easier, especially from the context of being a rock star whose star is rising currently. That said, it doesn't have to be about him and it is just a good story and a good poem, good lyrics. So I'm gonna let it go.
- [79:55]
Lori
All right. Shall we move on to the next one?
- [79:58]
Scott Free
Suppose we shall.
- [79:59]
Lori
Okay, so the next song is called the Planetarium Scene.
- [80:05]
Scott Free
No, sorry, sorry, not yet. Sorry.
- [80:08]
Lori
Keep going, keep going.
- [80:11]
Scott Free
There was a time when life was easy. My Heart did soar for what the future stored and life, it pleased me but it's all gone now. Gone far away now. Far away.
- [80:29]
Lori
Really?
- [80:33]
Scott Free
Rockstar kid.
- [80:34]
David Shelzel
Really?
- [80:39]
Lori
Okay, now we're not laughing at you, David. We're laughing with you.
- [80:44]
Scott Free
We're laughing at 23 year old you. But we loved it in concert. Now it makes more sense for us now and it maybe for you. Although he's a successful lawyer in Minneapolis now.
- [80:58]
Lori
Yeah.
- [80:58]
Scott Free
Isn't you being a rock star, man, this guy's doing it right.
- [81:04]
Lori
All right, are you done? Are you done?
- [81:07]
Scott Free
Now I'm. Now I'm done.
- [81:10]
Lori
All right. So the next song is called the Planetarium Scene.
- [81:28]
Rob Minig
Without a trace we won't leave.
- [81:36]
David Shelzel
A.
- [81:36]
Rob Minig
New faith we will see a warm embrace we will receive those in front of me those among the world.
- [82:09]
Lori
This song could be an echo in the Bunnyman song, especially with David's lead guitar. This sounds like it's straight off of their Gray album, Echo and the Bunnyman's Gray album.
- [82:21]
Scott Free
It's a yes. Although my own take on it was that there's significant REM influence in there as well.
- [82:30]
Lori
Okay.
- [82:30]
Scott Free
The jangly guitars and the guitar effects, subtle flanger, I want to say the bass work and the piano, like it's got serious. The one. I love vibes going here. But also what's that soaring piano reminding me of? I guess it could be echoing the Bunnyman maybe. And then at like the 2 minute 15 mark, when everything really starts to kick in all at once, this song starts to legit rock, which with its janglier soaring piano line stuff earlier, wouldn't. You would not think it was going to go there, but it really does. And it gets this driving machine thing going. It's really, really good stuff.
- [83:15]
Lori
Oh, yeah. This is. It's a whole album of strong songs, but this is one of the strongest, I think we'll agree. So I really didn't know why it was called the planetarium scene. And when we were at the concert, Scott, this is one of the things that David explained before he sang the song, that it was based on the planetarium scene in the movie Rebel Without a Cause.
- [83:43]
Scott Free
Oh, right. He did say that, didn't he?
- [83:46]
Lori
Yeah. Yeah. So that totally changed my perspective on things. I. It's just like I'm seeing it in a whole new light now. I still love the song, you know. Absolutely. But now I'm seeing it in that context. And then, you know, as I mentioned earlier, planets again, that's another recurring theme. So we had Mercury and now we have stars above Stars Below and what is Man.
- [84:12]
Scott Free
Well, okay then.
- [84:14]
Lori
Okay. Anything else on that one?
- [84:18]
Scott Free
Very little, no.
- [84:20]
Lori
Okay.
- [84:21]
Scott Free
That brings us to track nine, Falling through the Ice.
- [84:48]
Lori
You know, every time I hear this one, especially if I have it on shuffle, I always think to myself, which Cocteau twin song is this?
- [84:57]
Scott Free
Yeah, I mean, my. My notes on this, this is just a straight up minute and 25 second long Cocteau Twins vignette. And I'm not even mad about it. My only complaint is that I wish it was three minutes longer.
- [85:13]
Lori
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And this is the only instrumental on the album. Yeah, yeah. But those shimmering guitars, shades of Robin Guthrie. There's some kind of distortion going on. It's just really gorgeous.
- [85:29]
Scott Free
Yeah, I love it. I just wish there was more of it. But that's all I have to really say about it.
- [85:36]
Lori
All right, well then, Scott, the instrumental track leads us to the next song. Ballerina out of Control.
- [85:47]
Rob Minig
The world came crashing down.
- [85:54]
Lori
And all that.
- [85:55]
Rob Minig
It contains a million pieces of dreams, a bunch of twists and she was singing all way Wasn't quite the same as it was yesterday.
- [86:30]
Lori
Oh, that's my song. Oh, yeah, that's my song. Absolutely. Yeah.
- [86:36]
Scott Free
You are the ballerina out of control.
- [86:38]
Lori
Something like that, yeah. But no, I. I've talked to a lot of women who've told me that they find this song very relatable. Especially I find it so hard to find a certain dress of that kind. I've had friends tell me, oh my gosh, that reminded me of my wedding. Trying to find the perfect wedding dress or an event that you're trying to go out and you're trying to look good. And you know, that one line I think a lot of people tend to zero in on. For me, though, it's. She twists and she turns. Dances it all away. Because that's actually something that I do when I'm just really overwhelmed and stressed is I will just crank up the music and I will dance around like a freaking goofball and just kind of dance all your cares away, as the Fraggles would say, right?
- [87:25]
Scott Free
Oh, yeah. I would rather see the night Than the reason of the day. Yeah, I think we all been there where we're just out there losing ourselves on a late night dance floor. Just daytime is not working out for us anymore.
- [87:42]
Lori
Nope, not so much. Now when I listen to this on my headphones, I'm hearing. At first I thought it was a flute, but now I'm listening to it closer. I think it is a keyboard, but it's really kind of emulating These just staccato notes. It really sounds like a flute.
- [88:01]
Scott Free
I will believe it.
- [88:03]
Lori
We gotta get you some headphones, man.
- [88:05]
Scott Free
Yeah, I mean, I have them. I just should have used them.
- [88:08]
Lori
Yeah. So, Scott, there was a very interesting story that David told the audience about where this song came from. Do you remember that?
- [88:20]
Scott Free
I do remember him telling it, but the details. It'll work better if I actually read his account of the origins of the lyrics to this one in the title from an interview he did. So this is from big takeover.com an interview called the Ocean Blue is Back, an interview with David Shelzel. He says, that's a song I wrote when I was in Los Angeles, and we were mixing between something and nothing. Believe it or not, I guess I was out in LA to visit the label and redo a few things on that song before it was released on the first record. So I went out one evening with the general manager of Sire Records and one of the assistants named Sandy, and we went and saw Nitzer eb kind of this gothic industrial band. And there was this woman in the crowd wearing a ballerina outfit, but all torn up and twisted, as you might expect. So Sandy turns to me and says, she's a ballerina out of control. And I just thought, man, that is such a great phrase. And from that, it kind of bounced around in my head for a while until I constructed the song around a character in this sort of conflicted state. She appreciates the aesthetic, but has some things clearly askew in her life.
- [89:34]
Lori
Yeah, her world came crashing down and all that. It contained a million pieces of dreams coming apart at the seams. Ouch. Very relatable. Very relatable. Yeah. No, I didn't know that origin story until he said that at the show. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, that's really cool. And I can't think of an artist that would be more different from the Ocean Blue as Nitzer.
- [90:03]
Scott Free
Yeah, Not a lot of crossover between the Ocean Blue and Mitsurab. It's true.
- [90:07]
Lori
Yeah. Yeah. But I can totally visualize that. And quite frankly, I think you and I probably saw some similar things at some of the goth clubs we used to go to.
- [90:16]
Scott Free
Oh, yeah, I can picture that girl at that show, for sure.
- [90:19]
Lori
Yeah.
- [90:20]
Scott Free
Picture is David Shelzel at that show. But I'm glad he went and got out of his comfort zone and saw some weirdos and wrote a song about one. And I say weirdos lovingly. Don't come for me, Nithrab fans. I'm one of You. He's painting this portrait through the lyrics of this ballerina out of control. He talks about her dancing, Dancing it all away. Would rather see the night Than the reason of the day. Okay, all makes some sense. It feels like he's with her or feels sympathy for her throughout this. Dancing her way through this crisis at the club. But then the last two lines. I find it so hard to find any reason to this kind. Does this not feel like a bit of a betrayal of this sympathetic, if not wholly flattering portrait of the ballerina out of control?
- [91:22]
Lori
I see what you're saying. It seems like those last two lines almost don't fit.
- [91:28]
Scott Free
Almost dismisses her.
- [91:30]
Lori
Yeah, yeah.
- [91:31]
Scott Free
I don't know.
- [91:34]
Lori
So, Scott, this was the first single released from the album. It charted on the Billboard Alternative Songs chart at number three. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that this is probably their best known song.
- [91:48]
Scott Free
I don't think that I agree, but. All right, all right.
- [91:53]
Lori
Okay, okay. I just remember seeing the videos all the time on 120 minutes. I remember hearing it all the time at a store that I used to work at. And, yeah, I'm. Okay, I'm rambling.
- [92:07]
Scott Free
Yeah. I would say it's up between Ballerina out of Control and Between Something and Nothing. One of those songs that you will hear to this day on, say, SiriusXM first wave or any retrospect alternative station. So I don't know either one of those.
- [92:25]
Lori
I love this one.
- [92:26]
Scott Free
Yeah, same.
- [92:27]
Lori
Okay. All right, well, Scott, we got two more songs.
- [92:33]
Scott Free
All right, we'll power through them. Next one. The second to last song on the album, Hurricane Amore.
- [92:46]
Lori
Star.
- [92:48]
Rob Minig
Late to mind Staring A hurricane me I march in.
- [93:26]
Scott Free
Okay, so the track opens with howling wind and distant chimes. Very moody. I gotta say, I was not expecting the guitar line that comes in to be these lilting arpeggios. But then in the background of them, there is still these sort of screaming, feedbacky My Bloody Valentine guitar lines. But it goes away when the vocals of the first verse come in. So expectations set, expectations thwarted. Jangly pop song in threes comes in.
- [94:05]
Lori
Again, not really sure what this is about. Hurricane Amore. Obviously, a hurricane is destructive, so this is maybe a relationship that just kind of comes in like a hurricane. The Ides of March the wind of May away Knife to heart, blade to mind Starch to soul O Valentine so the reference to the Ides of March, right, that's obviously Caesar was betrayed and was stabbed to death. Knife to heart, blade to mind. I mean, even the first line is so mixed up. So it sounds like this is a contentious relationship. She's really done a number on it. Right?
- [94:57]
Scott Free
Yeah. I mean, lyrically, it's got that literary bent thing, and the specific, jangly guitar work really feels like a Smith's track once it gets going to me at least. Right.
- [95:13]
Lori
Yes, I agree.
- [95:15]
Scott Free
This is one of the very short songs lyrically, although the longest song on the album at 4. 49.
- [95:23]
Lori
Okay, so you mentioned the Smiths. The title of this one sounds like it would be a Smiths song.
- [95:31]
Scott Free
Right.
- [95:32]
Lori
I've sung one too many songs for a crowd that didn't want to hear. That's the full name of the song. Let's listen.
- [95:47]
Scott Free
She.
- [95:49]
Rob Minig
She walks through my mind.
- [95:54]
Scott Free
She.
- [95:57]
Rob Minig
Strolls through my. And we're wasting time Coming, going, losing time Coming, going.
- [96:13]
Scott Free
Home.
- [96:17]
Rob Minig
Held your head in the air in the air.
- [96:31]
Lori
Oh, my God, that bass again, right? Bobby Matan, again. That bass is bouncy. I guess, for lack of a better word, it's bouncy. But it really. It brings the whole song together for me, so.
- [96:49]
Scott Free
And your song, speaking of coming together, this is another one where it opens with a quieter, more contemplative sounding instrumental intro. Reminded me so much of a Love and Rockets instrumental track. Suaded. Suaded. I'm not sure how you pronounce the Portuguese word, but something like that. But then the bass comes in and it pretty much turns into REM Near Wild Heaven, or more like Aztec Camera. Oblivious even. But, like, the song takes such a turn after the intro. But, yeah, the bass is doing. Doing the work in this one.
- [97:30]
Lori
Yeah, it's. This is a gorgeous, gorgeous song. And again, I think that this is. I think this is a love song. Again. She walks through my mind she strolls through my moods. Yeah. So I. I don't know. I don't know specifically what it's about, but I like it.
- [97:50]
Scott Free
I am with.
- [97:53]
Lori
All right, well, guess what we do next. What's your favorite song?
- [97:59]
Scott Free
For me, and I sort of alluded to it earlier, I feel like the opener. Breezing Up. This album starts out incredibly strong, and for my money, Breezing up, best track on the album.
- [98:15]
Lori
All right. And this is really hard for me to pick one because there are so many good songs. You know, the. The three singles, I think are very strong. I mentioned, you know, ballerina out of Control, I find very relatable. But I think out of all of them, if you held a gun to my head and say, you have to.
- [98:37]
Scott Free
Pick one, I probably won't.
- [98:40]
Lori
You probably won't hold A Gun to my Head. That's very kind of you. I've sung one too many songs for a crowd that didn't want to hear. I think that that is my favorite out of all of them.
- [98:56]
Scott Free
All right.
- [98:57]
Lori
Yeah.
- [98:57]
Scott Free
Opener and Closer, respectively.
- [99:00]
Lori
Yes, the Bookends.
- [99:02]
Scott Free
Right. But there's a lot of good stuff in between.
- [99:05]
Lori
Yeah. And this is another album where there's just not a bad track on it. So, Scott, where are they now.
- [99:13]
Scott Free
While they're on tour and coming to a town near you? If you're in Bozeman, Montana, or Annapolis, Maryland, or several other cities we listed earlier.
- [99:24]
Lori
Yeah, that's true, that's true.
- [99:26]
Scott Free
Okay. While they put out a couple albums that avid new wave indie pop alternative fans know about, the self titled debut, the Ocean Blue, and this album, Cerulean, they continued to put out albums. They put out one more on Sire Records. They put out a couple on Mercury, I believe, and then self produced and released an additional number of albums. Eight albums in total, plus a couple EPs, I believe. But they are also working men. They got their own individual careers. As mentioned earlier. David Shelzel is an attorney in Minneapolis. Another one members is an engineer. And it would be way better if we could say which one is which. And I don't have those notes handy.
- [100:19]
Lori
So. Two of the four original members actually ended up leaving the band, which is why we did not hear from them in our interview. So after you mentioned they did a third album on Sire Records in 93 that was beneath the rhythm and sound. Shortly after that, Steve Lau left the band, founding his own record label. He moved to New York City and founded Kinetic Records. He apparently also became a vintner and produced a line of organic wines. Well, well, yes, Rob Minig did eventually leave the band in 2001, and again, I think he really wanted to focus more on the music production aspect. Awesome, awesome first production effort on this album, Cerulean. As I mentioned earlier, I think the production values are fantastic. So yeah, the band lineup has changed a little bit over the years. As you mentioned, eight albums. The current lineup is David, Bobby, Ed Grown, Ron on guitar, keyboards and vocals, and Peter Anderson on drums. I do want to give a shout out to Peter Anderson though, because we've been emailing back and forth for several months now. And he has just been so wonderful and so patient and we appreciate so much the boys taking the time to come chat with this humble little podcast. So thank you again.
- [101:59]
Scott Free
Great conversation and really great to be able to have you on our show.
- [102:05]
Lori
Absolutely.
- [102:06]
Scott Free
Coming soon to a theater near you. They are still on tour and they may well be coming to your town. If you live in Bozeman, Montana, Annapolis, Maryland, or any of the other cities you listed there.
- [102:23]
Lori
TheOceanBlue.com you guys check it out. And again, if you get the opportunity to see them live, please do. You won't be disappointed. They usually play smaller venues, very intimate. Worth every penny for the tickets. So definitely try to go. Scott.
- [102:44]
Scott Free
Yes.
- [102:45]
Lori
I don't know if we've decided what we're doing on our next episode. I know we're moving on to 1992.
- [102:49]
Scott Free
We're doing 1992. That's what we're doing on our next episode.
- [102:52]
Lori
Okay. All right, Scott, thank you again. Thanks for going to the show with me and thanks for doing the podcast episode with me and listeners. Thanks for tuning in. We will be back in two weeks and we're going to move on to 1992.
- [103:08]
Scott Free
1992. Woo.
- [103:11]
Lori
On that note, it's a goodbye from.
- [103:13]
Scott Free
Me, Laurie, and from me, scot free. You know, I'm still learning about this.
- [103:28]
Lori
Stuff and this stuff.
- [103:32]
Unknown Speaker
Oh, okay, I see. You think this has nothing to do with you. You go to your closet and you select, I don't know, that lumpy blue sweater, for instance, because you're trying to tell the world that you take yourself too seriously to care about what you put on your back. But what you don't know is that that sweater is not just blue. It's not turquoise. It's not lapis. It's actually cerulean. And you're also blithely unaware of the fact that in 2002, Oscar de la Renta did a collection of cerulean gowns. And then I think it was Yves Saint Laurent, wasn't it, who showed cerulean military jackets? I think we need a jacket here. And then cerulean quickly showed up in the collections of eight different designers. I'm gonna test filtered down through the department stores and then trickled on down into some tragic casual corner where you no doubt fished it out of some clearance bin. However, that blue represents millions of dollars and countless jobs. And it's sort of comical how you think that you've made a choice that exempts you from the fashion industry, when, in fact, you're wearing a sweater that was selected for you by the people in this room.
- [104:43]
Scott Free
Room.
- [104:45]
Unknown Speaker
From a pile of stuff.
- [104:47]
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