The Mark Zuckerberg Interview

Summary

Acquired Podcast Summary: The Mark Zuckerberg Interview

Podcast Information:

• Title: Acquired
• Hosts: Ben Gilbert and David Rosenthal
• Guest: Mark Zuckerberg
• Episode: The Mark Zuckerberg Interview
• Release Date: September 18, 2024

---

1. Introduction and Event Overview

The episode opens with hosts Ben Gilbert and David Rosenthal preparing for their live interview with Mark Zuckerberg at the Chase Center in front of a 6,000-person audience. They express anticipation about Zuckerberg’s insights, noting the uniqueness of the live format compared to typical interviews.

Notable Quote:

• Ben Gilbert [00:35]: "Welcome to the fall 2024 season of Acquired, the podcast about great companies and the stories and playbooks behind them."

---

2. Partnership and Event Logistics

Before diving into the interview, the hosts acknowledge their sponsors, particularly JP Morgan Payments, which played a pivotal role in securing the Chase Center for the event. They highlight the collaborative efforts between Acquired and JP Morgan Payments, emphasizing the seamless orchestration of the evening.

Notable Quote:

• David Rosenthal [03:01]: "Our partnership this year has been absolutely incredible and gone, I think, way beyond what either of us ever could have imagined."

---

3. Mark Zuckerberg’s Vision for AR, AI, and the Future of Human Connection

Mark Zuckerberg discusses Meta’s ambitious projects, particularly focusing on augmented reality (AR) glasses and artificial intelligence (AI). He envisions a future where AR glasses facilitate seamless human connection by projecting holograms, enabling immersive social experiences without the constraints of small screens.

Notable Quotes:

• Mark Zuckerberg [06:10]: "I do think that there's something to what Jensen was saying that I thought was very honest and that when I heard him say it the first time, I was like, yeah, I get that."
• Mark Zuckerberg [08:26]: "Pathe Mathos, Learning through suffering. It's a little family saying and also Aeschylus."

---

4. Meta’s Strategic Focus as a Technology Company

Zuckerberg emphasizes that Meta is fundamentally a technology company dedicated to enhancing human connection, rather than merely a social media or app company. This broad focus allows Meta to innovate across various platforms and technologies, ensuring adaptability and sustained growth.

Notable Quote:

• Mark Zuckerberg [19:51]: "I think it's that we're a technology company that is focused on human connection, not a specific type of app."

---

5. Reflections on Past Challenges: IPO and Political Climate

Zuckerberg reflects on Meta’s challenging period during its Initial Public Offering (IPO) and the subsequent political backlash post-2016. He candidly acknowledges the company's missteps in navigating the evolving political landscape, admitting that the company underestimated the long-term impact of political tensions on its brand.

Notable Quotes:

• Mark Zuckerberg [42:31]: "I think the political miscalculation was a 20-year mistake."
• Mark Zuckerberg [36:07]: "We basically went through this period where we had to go rewrite our apps from scratch."

---

6. Company Rebranding to Meta

The discussion delves into the rationale behind rebranding the company from Facebook to Meta. Zuckerberg explains that the new name aligns with Meta’s broader vision beyond social media, encapsulating their ventures into AR, VR, and AI. He underscores the importance of a brand that reflects the company’s future-oriented mission.

Notable Quote:

• Mark Zuckerberg [63:47]: "I like Meta. That's a good name."

---

7. Open Source Philosophy and Technological Advancements

Zuckerberg highlights Meta’s strategic use of open-source technology, which has been crucial in building scalable and innovative solutions. He discusses initiatives like Open Compute, which have set industry standards and fostered a collaborative technological ecosystem.

Notable Quotes:

• Mark Zuckerberg [33:19]: "I think open source has been important and valuable."
• Mark Zuckerberg [34:51]: "We want to make sure that we have access to a leading AI model."

---

8. Reality Labs and Long-Term Investment

Mark Zuckerberg elaborates on Reality Labs, Meta’s division focused on developing AR and VR technologies. He describes the substantial investments made over the past decade, emphasizing the importance of controlling their own technological destiny to innovate freely without platform constraints.

Notable Quote:

• Mark Zuckerberg [54:16]: "This is going to be a really important part of what we do."

---

9. Advice to Founders and Building Sustainable Companies

In the final segment, Zuckerberg offers advice to aspiring founders. He encourages building products that founders are passionate about, maintaining flexibility, and learning rapidly from user feedback. He stresses the importance of balancing invention with market discovery to achieve product-market fit.

Notable Quote:

• Mark Zuckerberg [72:57]: "I think that there's different ways to build stuff. It's like our way worked for me and our team. Different things have clearly worked for other companies."

---

10. Reflections and Closing Remarks

The hosts share their reflections on the interview, noting Zuckerberg’s deep involvement and commitment to Meta’s long-term vision. They highlight how the conversation provided unprecedented insights into his strategic mindset and the company’s trajectory.

Notable Quote:

• David Rosenthal [81:57]: "He is more in it than ever. I don't think he thinks he's halfway through his journey."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Meta’s Broad Vision: Beyond social media, Meta is investing heavily in AR, VR, and AI to redefine human connection.
• Technology-Centric Strategy: Meta positions itself as a technology company with a strong foundation in engineering and open-source innovation.
• Resilience Through Challenges: Despite facing significant political and market challenges, Meta continues to focus on long-term growth and innovation.
• Leadership and Culture: Zuckerberg’s engineering background and commitment to rapid iteration drive Meta’s ability to adapt and thrive.
• Future-Oriented Rebranding: The shift to Meta symbolizes the company’s evolution and commitment to building the future of human interaction.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• On Learning Through Suffering:

  • Mark Zuckerberg [08:46]: "I think that that is sort of, that's the journey, right? I mean, that's the entrepreneurial journey."

• On Being a Technology Company:

  • Mark Zuckerberg [19:51]: "We're a technology company that is focused on human connection, not a specific type of app."

• On Open Source:

  • Mark Zuckerberg [34:49]: "It's similar deal. We want to make sure that we have access to a leading AI model."

• On Reality Labs:

  • Mark Zuckerberg [54:16]: "Reality Labs is going to be a completely ubiquitous product."

• On Company Rebranding:

  • Mark Zuckerberg [63:47]: "I like Meta. That's a good name."

• On Political Challenges:

  • Mark Zuckerberg [42:31]: "The political miscalculation was a 20-year mistake."

• On Founder Advice:

  • Mark Zuckerberg [72:57]: "Learn from other people's successes and failures, but do your own thing."

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of the live interview with Mark Zuckerberg on the Acquired podcast, highlighting Meta’s strategic vision, technological advancements, leadership philosophy, and reflections on past challenges. For listeners seeking an in-depth understanding of Meta’s trajectory and Zuckerberg’s mindset, this summary serves as a valuable resource.

Transcript

[David Rosenthal]

So how many interviews with Mark do you think you watched before tonight?

[Ben Gilbert]

Oh, to prepare?

[David Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Ben Gilbert]

30 to 40. The best ones are the 04 to 06 vintage, but they're all so different. It's almost like every three to four years is a new era that is markedly different from all the previous eras.

[David Rosenthal]

Totally. And I think we might have witnessed the beginning of a new era right in front of us on stage.

[Ben Gilbert]

Oh, yes, absolutely.

[David Rosenthal]

All right, should we do this?

[Ben Gilbert]

Let's do it. Who got the truth?

[David Rosenthal]

Is it you? Is it you? Is it you?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Who got the truth now?

[Ben Gilbert]

Is it you? Is it you? Is it you?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Sit it down, say it straight. Another story on the way.

[Ben Gilbert]

Who got the truth? Welcome to the fall 2024 season of acquired, the podcast about great companies and the stories and playbooks behind them. I'm Ben Gilbert. I'm David Rosenthal and we are your hosts. Listeners, we have something very special for you today. Our interview with Mark Zuckerberg from Acquired Live at Chase Center.

[David Rosenthal]

Ooh.

[Ben Gilbert]

Mark is the iconic founder CEO of our time and this conversation was just too good to hold onto any longer. So we are getting it out quickly before we release the full video of the entire show.

[David Rosenthal]

Which, speaking of the full show was utterly amazing. We had surprise appearances from Jensen Huang, Danielle Eck, Emily Chang, and of course we had the one and only Mike Taylor, the artist who sings who Got the Truth performing live. It was incredible. We've got basically a whole film production that's now happening behind the scenes with another 90 minutes of content beyond just this Mark interview. We should have that out in the next couple weeks, so stay tuned for that.

[Ben Gilbert]

First though, a huge thank you to our partners this season. You know our presenting partner, JP Morgan Payments.

[David Rosenthal]

And we are also pumped to have two more great returning sponsors this season. Statsig, the world's first product acceleration platform that thousands of companies from OpenAI to Series A startups rely on to ship fast, learn more and make smart decisions. You can find out more about [e-mail].

[Ben Gilbert]

Acquired sounds a lot like Meta and Crusoe, which is the world's best climate aligned AI cloud and data center operator that is leading the industrial build out of AI. Find out more about them at Crusoe. AI Acquired as always, come discuss this afterwards with us in the Slack Acquired FM Slack. And if you want to be notified when every new episode drops, sign up@acquired FM email.

[David Rosenthal]

All right, one more thing. Before the interview, we need to say a huge, huge thank you to the entire JP Morgan Payments team for securing the Chase center for this, for orchestrating the entire evening. Our partnership this year has been absolutely incredible and gone, I think, way beyond what either of us ever could have imagined.

[Ben Gilbert]

Yeah. For those who don't know about JP Morgan Payments, they empower businesses to accept money, hold money, send money, protect money from fraud, and gain unique insights from money flows to help your company grow.

[David Rosenthal]

Yep. And the payments business specifically, like most things at J.P. morgan is the largest and most trusted payments provider in the entire world. They move $10 trillion a day. That's almost 25% of all US dollar payment flows in the global economy. Pretty much every single company that we cover on acquired works with JP Morgan Payments in some way. You can never outgrow them. They partner with startups and small companies like us. Like you would be, Ben. All the way up to the largest enterprises in the Fortune 500.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah.

[Ben Gilbert]

We've got more to share about their new payments products and technology this season. Like the pay by face biometric payments that we saw live at Chase Center.

[David Rosenthal]

Yeah. That was super cool.

[Ben Gilbert]

Yep. So that you can learn which may be the right fit to solve your payments challenges and grow your business.

[David Rosenthal]

The other thing we got to say is, like, Ben and I really worked side by side all year with their incredible team to make this evening happen. And we really got to know them. Max, Umar, Dustin, Hannah, Vinny, Nick, Amy, Carly, and so many others. It's like we were one team. You guys rock.

[Ben Gilbert]

Yeah. For the first time, we actually got to experience what it would be like if Acquired was a large, world class organization and not just, you know, our little team. And what happened at Chase center is really the physical embodiment of that.

[David Rosenthal]

Thank you guys for being the best partners we could ever imagine. And a very special shout out to Dustin Sedgwick, JP Morgan Payments cmo, who's a longtime listener of the show and a good friend of ours, and he's just been the driving force behind all of this. Without him, Chase center wouldn't have happened. We're so grateful for our incredible relationship with you and all of J.P. morgan.

[Ben Gilbert]

Yep. So please enjoy our conversation with Mark Zuckerberg. And to take us in, the Chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase, Jamie Dimon.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Hello, acquired listeners. Welcome to the Chase center and to Acquired Live. I'm Jamie dimon, chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase. I'm happy to kick off the show tonight and welcome all of you to one of my favorite arenas. It's been a great partnership all year between JP Morgan Payments and Acquired. Storytelling and educating about some of the greatest companies in the world. For many of them, just like many of you in the crowd, we're thrilled to call you friends and partners of the firm. Sorry I couldn't be there in person tonight, but I hope everyone enjoys the show. Ben and David, over to you.

[David Rosenthal]

Mark. Hey, it's great to have you here.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

It's great to be here. You know, I was watching. I was watching Jensen's video correcting the record, and I was thinking to myself, we might need to book the next one of these for all the things I'm going to have to apologize for that I'm going to say tonight. Nah, just kidding. I don't apologize anymore.

[Ben Gilbert]

We've noticed.

[David Rosenthal]

Well, ok, wait, wait. Here's the question. If you knew what you knew today, what's up? If you knew what you know today, would you have started Facebook?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Oh, God. I mean, look, I think coming out hot.

[Ben Gilbert]

David.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah.

[David Rosenthal]

I mean, he started it literally.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

I think there's something to Jensen's original sentiment, which is that the entrepreneurial journey is very challenging, especially the early days when you're running a startup. And there's the sense that what you're doing could just die at any moment. And the volatility, everything is just getting thrashed so much. And it's not, obviously, you look back, you have all these fond memories, but it was not the most fun part of the journey or the part of my life that I wish I could go back and relive. So, I mean, I do think that there's something to what Jensen was saying that I thought was very honest and that when I heard him say it the first time, I was like, yeah, I get that. I think there are a lot of people for whom if you knew how painful it would be along the way, you wouldn't get started. But then I think that that's one of the things that's good about human nature, is you can underestimate how painful things are going to be. So that way you can go and do good things.

[David Rosenthal]

Well, on that topic, we have a lot to talk about. I think this is actually very appropriate. First, we have to ask you about your shirt and what you're wearing.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah. You know, I started working with people to design some of my own clothes. And so I figure, you know, look, we're going to design eyewear, we're going to design other stuff that people wear. Let's get good at this. And so this one, I actually worked with this great fashion designer, Micah Miri, and he's got a great story. So I wouldn't be surprised if you're doing one of these with him one day. And this one is. So I've kind of started working on this series of shirts with some of my favorite classical sayings on them. So this one is Pathe Mathos, Learning through suffering. It's a little family saying and also Aeschylus.

[David Rosenthal]

Was that your family saying growing up or is that your family now?

[Ben Gilbert]

Well, no, let's pull that thread. No pun intended, I promise. What does learning through suffering mean to you?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Well, I think you learn what matters to you and what's important and kind of your place in the world through repeatedly hitting your head against different challenges. And I mean, I think that that is sort of, that's the journey, right? I mean, that's the entrepreneurial journey. It's also, I think, part of the beauty of building things. And. But this is something that Jensen talks a lot about too, right? It's like I feel like when you go to start a company, everyone kind of writes down what they would like their values to be. But values are not what you write down on the wall. It's like your lived behaviors and you only really learn what you care about when you have to make hard trade offs and face challenges. So yeah, you learn the most important things through facing challenges.

[David Rosenthal]

Well, speaking of facing challenges, we want to talk about a number of those because we counted. By our count, I think you have faced more existential challenges than any meaningful company in history through your first 20 years. First, though.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Dubious distinction, we will make.

[Ben Gilbert]

Our case to you of why. Well, and enumerate them.

[David Rosenthal]

You're still here.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

But first, I kind of think my, you know, like that old Nike Michael Jordan ad where he's talking about how he's failed over and over and over again and that's how he succeeds. That one really resonates with me too.

[David Rosenthal]

So thanks to you guys, I got a pair of these this summer and I genuinely love them. Tell us the story of how these came to be.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, so thanks. I'm excited about them too. So, you know, we at Meta, we've been building social experiences for 20 years now. And originally it took the form of a website, then mobile apps. But the thing is, I never thought about us as a social media company, right? We're not a social app company. We are a social connection company, right? I mean, we talk about what we're doing is building the future of human connection and that's not only going to be constrained over time to what you can do on a phone, right? On a small screen. So when you think about, you know, when we got started, okay, we're like a handful of kids, you know, we weren't able. We didn't have the resources, the time to go define whatever the next computing platform is. And also, Facebook originally got started around the same time as a bunch of the early smartphones, and those platforms got started. So we didn't really get to play any role in developing that platform. And one of the big themes, I think, for the next chapter of what we do is I want to be able to build what I think are the ideal experiences, not just what you're allowed to build on some platform that someone else built, but, like, what is actually, if you can think from first principles, what is the ideal social experience? So I think what you would like to have is not a phone that you look down at that kind of takes your attention away from the things and the people around you, not just a small screen. I think what you ideally have is glasses. And through the glasses, there's one part of it where the glasses, you can. They can see what you see and they can hear what you hear. And in doing so, they can be kind of the perfect AI assistant for you because they have context on what you're doing. But then part of that is also that the glasses can project images, basically like holograms, out into the world. And that way your social experiences with other people aren't constrained to these little interactions you can have on a phone screen. You know, in the not so distant future, you can imagine, because you guys have demoed some of the stuff that we've done a version of this where we're having a conversation like this, but maybe one of us isn't even here. They're just a hologram and we have glasses. And there's the question of delivering a realistic sense of presence. There's something magical in the realm of building social experiences around the feeling of human presence and being there with another person. And this physical perception where we're very physical beings, people like to intellectualize everything, but a lot of our experience is very physical. This physical sense of presence that you are with another person, doing things in the physical world, is something that you're going to be able to do through holograms, through glasses, without being taken away from whatever else you're doing. Just have that mixed in with the rest of the world. It's going to be, I think, the ultimate digital social experience. And I think it's also going to be the ultimate incarnation of AI because you're going to have conversations where it's like, all right, there's some people. It's like maybe like I'm physically here. There's like a person. You're like a hologram there. There's an AI that is kind of embodied as someone is there. And the glasses will enable this. So, okay, so how are we going after this building this? This is like some huge project. We've been working on it for 10 years and there are a lot of different challenges to solve. To get there, you have to build a novel display stack. These aren't just screens, the kind that are in phones. There's this long lineage. They're connected to the screens that have been in TVs and monitors and things for a long time. There's been this massive optimization of the supply chain. There's brand new display stack around holographic displays that basically need to get created and then they need to be put into glasses, they need to be miniaturized. And you also, in the glasses, need to fit chips, microphones, speakers, cameras, eye tracking to be able to understand what you're doing. Batteries to make it last all day.

[Ben Gilbert]

New novel RF protocols.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, it's like, okay, it's a pretty big challenge. So we're like, all right, let's go try to go for the big thing, right? And we've been working on that for a while and we're pretty close to being able to show off kind of the first prototype that we have of that. And I'm really excited about that. At the same time, we also came at it from this lens of. All right, so that's like a lot of new technology that needs to get developed a lot to pack into a form factor because the glasses have to be good looking too. So what if we just constrain ourselves to like, we're going to work with a great partner, Esselor Luxottica. They make Ray Ban, they make a lot of the iconic glasses. Let's see what we can fit into glasses today and make them as useful as possible. And you know, I actually, I kind of thought when we were getting started with those, that it was almost like a practice project for like, for the.

[Ben Gilbert]

Ultimate, which, let's be clear, that's what you thought Facebook was.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

That's true. That's true.

[Ben Gilbert]

Yeah. I did, like, for your real startup someday.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

That's true. Let's go on a tangent there for a second. So started Facebook in school, came out to Silicon Valley with Dustin and a handful of people working on it at the time. And we did that because Silicon Valley is where all the startups came from. And I remember we got off the plane, we were driving down 101, we're like, wow, ebay, Yahoo. Like, this is amazing. All these great companies. One day maybe we'll build a company like this. And I'd already started Facebook and I was like, surely the project that we're working on now is not a company.

[Ben Gilbert]

And Facebook had some scale at this point.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Oh, no, no, it was a great project. I just didn't have the ambition to turn it into a company at the time. That just kind of happened. But anyway, yeah, I mean, a lot of hard work, obviously, but I just, at the time I was kind of like, yeah, I don't think this is it.

[David Rosenthal]

Well, that's your answer of would you have started? You actually didn't try to start Facebook?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, I didn't know. So, yeah. So I mean, the glasses though, you know, we thought that this was like, all right, we want to get working with SLR luxottica so we can start building more and more advanced glasses. And then, you know, they're really good, they look good. And then AI, like the massive transformation in AI.

[Ben Gilbert]

So I remember for listeners, let's just be really clear. You guys shipped this product that I'm holding before LLMs or at least before the public consciousness was aware of the ChatGPT moment. And these were not manufactured and shipped as an AI device that came later when they were already in market.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, a few years ago I would have predicted that AR holograms would have been available before kind of like full scale AI. And now I think it's probably going to be the other order. So now it's like, all right, great. Well, this is actually a great product because it's got the cameras so it can see what you see. It's got the microphone, it's got the speakers, you can talk to it. I remember calling Alex Hymel, the guy who runs the product group that's exactly running it, and I'm like, hey, you know, I think we should probably pivot this and make it so that meta AI is the primary feature of it. And then like, I remember I came in the next week and they built a prototype of it on Tuesday. And it was like, all right, good. Yeah, no, this is good. This is going to be a very successful.

[David Rosenthal]

He told us a much more high stakes version of that story.

[Ben Gilbert]

I was on the highway with my kids and I get this call on a Saturday from Mark and he's like, those glasses, could we put meta AI in them? Running on device and ship that soon so we can see if that's a good idea or not.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, that tracks. That's what I just said. Sounds right.

[Ben Gilbert]

Okay, so thank you for opening up with a story. The question that I would like to try to answer tonight is why has Meta worked as spectacularly well as it has? I mean, one of the most valuable companies in the world through multiple iterations, multiple technology waves fighting off, you know, maybe let's name all the waves in which people said, oh, Facebook and Meta are so screwed. And yet that is not the way it looks today.

[David Rosenthal]

MySpace, Twitter, Gen1, Instagram, Snapchat, WhatsApp, TikTok, Apple app transparency put in its own whole category. And now ChatGPT, that's nine.

[Ben Gilbert]

Like, there is a widely held public narrative every single time Snapchat discovers stories, or there's something where people are like, oh, the cool thing that Facebook, the company did is just obsolete now, and they're gonna go away. You very much haven't gone away. What do you think is the through line of the DNA of the company that allows you to keep winning?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

I think it's that we're a technology company that is focused on human connection, not a specific type of app. So, like, we never thought about ourselves as a website or a social network or anything like that. For me, building this kind of glasses to enable the future of people being able to feel present with another person, no matter where they actually physically are is the natural continuation of the kind of apps that we build today. But it depends on how you define what you are. And then you need to figure out, well, how do you build? How do you give yourself the competence to actually go do that? And that's where I think being a strong technology company comes in. Because a lot of companies, I think, think about themselves too narrowly in terms of, okay, well, we're this kind of one thing. And the reason why we can build all these things is because we have a really strong technology foundation. And some of that is just me and how I think about stuff. I was an engineer before I got started. I mean, I mostly took systems engineering type classes when I was in college. So you talk about Friendster in MySpace and all the scaling challenges they had doing the graph calculations of, like, all right, do you know this person? Should you show them?

[Ben Gilbert]

Friends of friends of friends?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Rosenthal]

Actually, can you take us back? And, like, we want to ask you the story of that time. I mean, it seems quaint now. Friendster, MySpace. But you study computer science. Graph, networking, social graphs. That is a very, very Difficult conversation.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

So it's a combination of a product question and a technology question. I think you can define the product in such a general way that the technology becomes basically impossible to solve. So you want to have a smart product definition, but then you want to be competent and better than everyone else at the technology. And I think that that's something that we've held ourselves to and build a good organization around. And it's one of the things that I observed as soon as I came out to the Valley that all these companies that call themselves technology companies were not really set up that way. Right. Like, the companies I was talking about, it's like they, you know, they. The CEO wasn't technical. The board of directors had no one technical on it. They had like one dude on the management team who was the head of engineering who was technical and like everyone else wasn't. And it's like, all right, if that's your team, then you're not a technology company. So I think one of the things that I've always been pretty careful about is I actually want a lot of the people on our management team. It's like split. It's mostly people running either these big product groups who come up through different technical pathways at the company. And I think that there's a balance. You don't want everyone to be an engineer because there's other things that matter too. But if you don't have enough of your share of the company as engineers, then you're not a technology company. And I think that also is important to the board. And I think just like in terms of how you weigh decisions and culturally, things inside the company matters a lot. But I think that that's one of the things that has been really fundamental. It's like we're able to kind of go from platform to platform and do these different things because we've invested and cared about the underlying technology. The product experiences that we build on top of that are an implementation and they matter. And for that, I think we also, I think, are a pretty curious and learning focused organization where I view the product strategy less as any one specific thing and more as how do we iterate and learn as quickly as possible how to make each thing better for the people we're trying to serve. So I define our strategy as we can learn faster than every other company. We're going to win. We're going to build a better product than everyone else because we're going to get it out first or early. We're going to have a good feedback loop. We're going to get a bunch of feedback. We're going to learn what people like better than other people. And then over time, by the time you get to whether it's version three or four or five, I mean, they're not even discrete versions because you ship so frequently. It's you just, you learn faster. So I think that's basically the formula. Be a technology company, build good foundation. Like, learn from what people are kind of focused on in the world and just iterate as quickly as you can.

[Ben Gilbert]

In one of my research calls to prep for this, someone described you as a master strategist, which like it's. We all sort of acknowledge that at this point. But that the, I mean, except for.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Like all the stuff that I just thought was not going to be that important, that ended up actually being the most important. You're very numbed.

[Ben Gilbert]

But that's the thing.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Part of it is like, okay, you want to set up the games so that way you optimize, you create your luck.

[David Rosenthal]

This is what Jensen told us. Like the apple's going to fall from the tree in some direction and if you just set up the game that you have a hand close enough to catch it.

[Ben Gilbert]

The comment that someone made to me was the reason Mark is such a good strategist is because he plays the company as if it's a turn based strategy game. And he just makes sure he gets more turns than anybody else and he makes sure that he learns more from each turn than the next player does. Do you feel like that encapsulates like turning? But it does kind of feel like the way that you make bets is like, well, if we have great engineering then that can kind of take care of the speed part. That's like many iterations or multiple at bats. And then the, well, grid engineering and.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Speed and duration are actually two different values. They're not necessarily at odds. But I think like there are a lot of great engineering organizations that try to build things that are super high quality and have good competence around that. But I know there's, there's a certain personality that goes with kind of taking your stuff and putting it out there before it's fully polished. And look, I'm not saying that our strategy or approach on this is the only one that works. I think in a lot of ways we're like the opposite of Apple. And clearly their stuff has worked really well too. Right. But I mean, they take this approach, it's like we're going to take a long time, we're going to polish it, we're going to put it out. And maybe for the stuff that they're doing that works, maybe that just fits with their culture. But for us, I think that there are a lot of conversations that we have internally where you're almost at the line of being embarrassed about what you put out. Um, because you. It's, you know, obviously not. Not in the sense that it's like, you know, you want to. You want to put stuff out early enough so you can get good feedback. You obviously want to test things that are reasonable hypotheses. So if it's, like, so ineffective, then you're not testing a good hypothesis that doesn't work. But I do think a lot of the conversations that we have are like, okay, well, we can get this to be a lot better if we work on it for, like, another couple of months or whatever. And I do just think that you want to really have a culture that values shipping and getting things out and getting feedback more than needing always to get great, positive accolades from people when you put stuff out. Because I think if you want to wait until you get praised all the time, you're missing a bunch of the time when you could have learned a bunch of useful stuff and then incorporated that into the next version.

[Ben Gilbert]

And it's just about making sure that what the thing that the company is known for or its brand can withstand all the little damage that you do to it by shipping stuff that's not quite ready.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Well, I would like to hope that it's not damaging to the brand, but.

[Ben Gilbert]

Well, but innately it is. Like, when you're like, oh, I feel bad because I shipped a product that wasn't good enough, you're sort of.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, no, I don't want to overstate it. I mean, we don't ship things that we think are bad, but we also don't take. We want to make sure that we're shipping things that are kind of early enough that we can get good feedback to see what they're going to be most used for. Like, I think a lot of the AI stuff that we're building now, for example, it actually, you know, it's pretty clear that AI is going to be transformative for a lot of different things. It is actually less clear what are going to be the initial use cases for a lot of these things that are super valuable. And so, okay. Part of it is like, okay, you put something out, you want to kind of collect feedback and what people are actually where it's resonating now. If what you put out is bad, then you're not going to collect good data because people aren't going to use it for anything because it sucks. But I do think that you have hypotheses for what people might really want to use it for and they're not all going to be right. And you want to kind of go early enough on that as more. Yeah.

[Ben Gilbert]

So I'm building to this question of to you, is product creation an act of invention or discovery? Like, is David always inside that marble and you just need the very best tooling and ability to get things in market and get feedback to discover the statue of David? Or do you conceive of David in your head? And I like, I'm going to make this and put it in the world.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Does it have to be one or the other? I mean, I think it's a combination. I think you're basically taking some kind of values, either kind of like values that you have or a value for something that you believe should exist in the world and trying to build something that's aligned with that while trying to match it up with what is going to resonate the most with people. Right. I think if you just do the latter, then I think you just don't have enough conviction to see through hard things. And if you just do the former, then you probably don't get to product, market fit or optimize what you do because you're not focused enough on your customers. So I think both probably matter. Yeah.

[Ben Gilbert]

As I pour through all these historical examples, there's like the market discovers some other participant in the market discovers the stories format and suddenly the whole world is like, oh my God. God. That is the way that we all. That's the social interaction mechanism and that's like a pretty pure discovery where you have products that have stories, they perform very well. That's been discovered. But there's other times it feels like everything you're trying to do in reality labs, all, you know, 50 plus billion dollars that you've put into it is like we're gonna freaking will this thing into existence. Because I have an idea of the way that I want the world to be. I'm not really like asking for that much feedback. I'm putting it in the world.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Well, it's a combination. I mean I think that there's, there's certainly a lot of things that we've invented or created for the first time. I mean like in 2006 when we built the first version of newsfeed. Right. The like before that social networks were basically profiles and then we're like, hey, like people actually kind of want to get the updates and let's like show them that and if we rank them then we can, you know, there's so many updates that this can help people parse through that quickly. And today it's like hard to imagine any social product without a feed. So I think that that's. Obviously there are. Some of these things are sort of seminal, I don't want to call it an invention, but like patterns that we basically established first and then some of them are ones that other people did where we take pride in learning from what is working in the world. We're not embarrassed about learning from things that other people like discovered that were good first and then we build a better version of it. And I mean, I think that that's, you know, no one company is going to invent everything, right? I think if you don't invent anything, then it's hard to kind of be a successful company. But I do think that there's a mix of this. There are more smart people outside of your company than inside your company company. If you're not learning from what's going on in the market, then you're missing a lot of opportunities to get valuable signal from people in the community and customers about what they want you to be doing.

[David Rosenthal]

Which speaks to the thesis of Facebook as a technology company.

[Ben Gilbert]

Meta.

[David Rosenthal]

Meta is a technology company. We'll get to that later. Ben and I have been having a conversation. I want to take this to open source and open source technology and its importance to you. And Ben posited first to me and then to many other people in our calls over the last couple weeks that Meta has been the largest beneficiary of open source technology in the modern world. And I'm curious if you would agree with that and if you would comment on your relationship to open source.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

I think almost all of the major technology companies at this point are primarily using open source stacks. So yeah, I mean, I don't know, we wouldn't have been able to get built without open source. I think probably that's true for any new company that's been created since like, I don't know, the late 1990s or something. For us, open source has been important and valuable.

[David Rosenthal]

I mean, you were the first big company built on the LAMP stack.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, yeah, no, and it's great. Makes it super easy to develop stuff quickly and iterate quickly. But we've also had an interesting relationship with this because sequentially as a company we came after Google. So Google was the first of the great companies that built this distributed computing infrastructure, so they came first. So they were like, all right, let's keep this proprietary because it's a big advantage for us. And then we're like, all right, we need that too. But we built it. And then we're like, ok, not an advantage for us because Google already has that, so we might as well just make it open. And by making it open then you basically get this whole community of people building around it. So it wasn't going to help us compete with Google for any of the stuff that we were doing to have that technology. But what we were able to do with things like Open Compute were get to become the industry standard. So now you have like all these other, you know, cloud service platforms that, you know, basically use open compute. And because of that the supply chain is standard around, standardized around our designs, which means that it's like way more supply, way cheaper to produce. We've saved billions of dollars and the quality of the stuff that we get to use goes up. So all right, that's like a win win. But I think in order for this to work, we do a lot of open source stuff, we do a lot of closed source stuff. I'm not like a zealot on this. I think open source is very valuable. But I also think it sort of makes sense for us because of our position in the market and the same for AI. I mean around long.

[David Rosenthal]

Okay, this is where we were going with this.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, it's similar deal. We want to make sure that we have access to a leading AI model. I think just like we want to build the hardware so that we can build the best social experiences for the next 20 years. I don't think that, you know, for us it's like we've just been, we've been through too much stuff with the other platforms to fully depend on anyone else. And we're a big enough company at this point that like we don't have to. Right. We can build our own core technology platforms, whether that's going to be AR glasses or mixed reality or AI. So I think that's somewhat of an imperative for us to go do that. But you know, these things are not like pieces of software that are monolithic. They're ecosystems. They get better when other people use them. So for us there's a huge amount of good and it philosophically lines up with where we are, where like, I mean, look, I definitely, you know, firsthand have a lot of experiences. We were like trying to build stuff on mobile platforms. The platforms are Just like, nah, you can't build that. That's frustrating.

[David Rosenthal]

Can we take a real quick detour?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

What's up?

[David Rosenthal]

I really wanna ask you something.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

We can take a detour. Okay.

[David Rosenthal]

You took a detour. We're gonna take a detour. Help us with our research here. The eve of the ipo.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, this is quite a detour.

[David Rosenthal]

Wait, Quite a detour.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

David, did you just. I really grabbing the wheel here.

[Ben Gilbert]

Is this connected or did you just decide that it was your turn to talk?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

I'm sorry, I was like, really wound up.

[David Rosenthal]

I don't know.

[Ben Gilbert]

Open source and a.

[David Rosenthal]

I think it's related. I do, I really genuinely do. Facebook on mobile is HTML5 in 2012.

[Ben Gilbert]

May 2012.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah.

[David Rosenthal]

Yeah. I want to ask you what you were thinking going into the IPO with Facebook on mobile being HTML5 and what happened. You IPO at $100 billion market cap over the next three months, you have a 50% drawdown probably because of that. But I guess the related question to what we're talking about now is how much is that informing your approach here?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

With AI, it was a pretty different technical issue. So I mean, our legacy was building on web for websites and we were very used to building one thing and being able to continuously deploy it and it's fits with our iteration style and all that. So now all of a sudden this like app model comes along and it's like we have to build like different ones for each phone and like you have to go through approval to get it shipped and we have to wait like weeks before it can ship. It's like, this sucks. So we're like, all right, we have an idea. Let's build this platform where we can get a web based platform. So you basically build a native shell and you build this web based platform in it and we'll be able to just update our apps every day and we'll ship one thing once and we'll update our apps across Android and iPhone and BlackBerry and Windows Mobile and all the stuff that existed at the time because it hadn't gotten consolidated yet. And we're like, that's gonna be. We're like, basically whatever downside we are gonna have from not having the most native thing, we're gonna make up for in Velocity. And by having like way more of our energy focused on one platform. Well, we were wrong. It turned out that, you know, having the native integration was actually critical for having the interactions feel good and that. So we basically went through this period where we had to go rewrite our apps from Scratch. And that coincided with mobile growing dramatically. And mobile, we didn't have any revenue because it may seem like it's pretty similar, but there's a very big difference. On desktop, you basically have the app and you have a column on the side that we could put ads. And on mobile, we needed to figure out what does it mean to put ads into the experience.

[Ben Gilbert]

Let's be clear, the feed ad had not been invented.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

No, it's something that the team did. Yeah. And advertisers have specific formats that they like working with. And the idea that we were just going to be like, all right, now your ad is going to look like a feature feed story was a big challenge for advertisers. And the idea that now for people, you are going to have this organic feed, that was the most important part of the product. And now we're just going to start putting ads in. It was a challenge for the people who are using the product. So we needed to figure that out and we needed to get the apps to be better. And we basically took, I think it must have been like a year or something. We were just like, look, we're going to pause feature development of the company because it's hard enough to do a rewrite. Right. If you look at, like, the history of the tech industry, there are all these examples like Netscape and, you know, these things that, like, they tried to do a rewrite, they needed to reestablish their technical platform, and they also tried to add features they basically just like, never terminated. So that's a real risk. Right. When you're, like, completely changing your underlying platform, that you're going to miss it. It's like, all right, we got to minimize the chance that that happens. So we're not going to ship any new features, we're just going to rewrite it, make it faster. But while we're doing this, basically, mobile is growing, so the percent of our traffic that is monetizable is shrinking because web is basically shrinking and mobile's growing.

[David Rosenthal]

And that's your only business model.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah. And I was like, all right, and.

[Ben Gilbert]

You'Re now recently growing.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

But the thing is, it was actually pretty clear what we needed to do. I think strategically, a lot of the time, it's. It's somewhat harder to know what to do when you're winning. Like, when stuff is going well, it's like, what is the next move to go from winning to winning more? But when you're losing, it's usually pretty clear what you have to do. And I think a Lot of it is like, do you have the pain tolerance to go do it? So a lot of this was like, all right. The team was like, okay, well we're going public and investors really aren't going to like this if we are like not making money for a year and a half. And it's like, well, a year and a half is short in the grand scheme of things. Let's do this. And we did it. And it was a painful year and a half. And then we came out of that and we were in great shape. So I think, like people inside the company had felt a lot better sooner because it was pretty clear to people that we were doing the right thing and they knew that we were executing it in a responsible way and basically focused and we're doing the right thing. But I think it's actually when you have something that's working well and you're on one local hill and you need to jump to another hill, that's the stuff that's really culturally hard. But this one I think was, it was not fun. There have been a series of periods throughout the company that were not, I don't know, not the most fun periods. But although that one in retrospect is, you know, looks pretty good in retrospect, it's like not that bad. It's like your market cap only got cut in half for a year and a half. Like, great, great. Yeah, I'll take that. Anyway, where were we?

[Ben Gilbert]

Well, maybe. So can I connect? So David asked, hey, can you help us with our research? Can I follow that thread that you just said? Hey, that, that one wasn't so bad. There's been a lot of amazing things the company has done. There's also been a lot of criticism. If you were to be self critical of your own company, of your own creation. Of all the criticisms that have happened over the years, which do you believe is the most legitimate and why?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

I mean, there's so many things that we've messed up that there are many criticisms that are legitimate. But if that was a year and a half mistake, I think one of the things I reflect on over the last 10 years or so was the political environment just changed dramatically. It's like before 2016, there was not a month that went by except for maybe this IPO period where the sentiment about the company was anything but positive. And then after 2016, after the election, basically, there was not a month for a while where the sentiment about the company was positive, positive. And we, I think so much of this stuff is correctly understanding your place in the world and in history. And, you know, so I think, you know, we talked about before how it's like, I think we understood that we are a technology company and that you have to be a technology company to build this kind of thing. I think we understood that we're not a social network company. We're a human connection company. And that will take different forms over time. The political environment, I think I didn't have much sophistication around, and I think I just fundamentally misdiagnosed the problem. So I think that there was this basic challenge and there were a lot of things. I don't want to simplify this too much. I mean, there were a lot of things that we did wrong. There were some things that we did right. But I think one of the things that I look back on and regret is I think we accepted other people's view of some of the things that they were asserting that we were doing wrong or were responsible for that. I don't actually think we were. And now there were a lot of things we did mess up and we needed to fix. But I think that there's this view where when you're a company and someone says that there's an issue, I think the right instinct is to, like, take ownership for it, right? Say, like, okay, like, maybe, maybe it's not. Like, maybe it's not all our thing, but we're gonna fully own this problem, we're gonna take responsibility for it, we're gonna fix it. But when it's a political problem, I actually think a lot of the time sometimes there are people who are operating in good faith who are identifying a problem that want something to be fixed, and there are people who are just looking for someone to blame. And I think to some degree, if you take responsibility for things because you think it's a corporate crisis, not a political crisis, and your view is like, okay, I'm going to take responsibility for all this stuff. People are basically blaming social media and the tech industry for all these different things in society. And if we're saying, okay, we're going to really, like, do our part to go fixes like this stuff, I know there were a bunch of people who just took that and were like, oh, you're taking responsibility for that? Let me, like, kick you for more stuff. And honestly, I think we should have been firmer about and clearer about which of the things we actually felt like we had a part in and which ones we didn't. And my guess is if the IPO was a year and a half mistake. I think that the political miscalculation was a 20 year mistake. And so it started in 2016. And I think that we have been working super hard to fix a lot of issues and to figure out kind of what the right tone is for navigating what is a very kind of fraught political dynamic across both the country and multiplied across all these places around the world. And I think we've sort of found our footing on what the principles are where we think we need to improve stuff, but where, where people make allegations about the impact of the tech industry or our company, which are just not founded in any fact that I think we should push back on harder. And I think it's going to take another 10 years or so for us to kind of fully work through that cycle before our brand. And all of that is back to kind of the place that it maybe could have been if I hadn't messed that up in the first place. So. But look, in the grand scheme of things, 20 years isn't that bad either. And we'll get through it and I think we'll come out stronger. But I do think that is one of the kind of more interesting critiques that I think people get. And we get critiques on both sides on that. There are people who don't think we've taken enough responsibility. But I think certainly there's one line of critique which is you kind of bought into too much of the stuff that you shouldn't have. And yeah, I think it's going to take us a long time to dig out of that.

[Ben Gilbert]

Do you have a reasonable framework at this point for like, okay, here's the stuff where I feel like we actually do want to take responsibility for it. And here's the stuff we're like, no, that's not our fault.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, I mean, at this point I think a lot of this stuff has been studied. So I mean, I don't want to go rehash all the different things, but I think at this point there's been years of academic research on a lot of these things. And you know, part of the thing that's challenging is, and one of the things that we've learned is we actually should be trying to support more academics and doing more of this research ahead of time. Because like, when you get to a point where you're being kind of accused of something, you're not super credible, just standing up yourself and being like, I don't think we did this one. You know, it's like, so. But what has worked over time is like you know, you do the research in advance and you get kind of third party academics, respected folks who get to debate all these different issues. And then it's like, oh no, actually like the evidence just does not show that social media is correlated with this kind of harm at all. So I think that like, or it's, you know, so I think that that's, I think that it kind of cuts, it cuts both ways to me.

[David Rosenthal]

This brings up another topic we wanted to talk about with you. And you just, you know, you said that's 20 years isn't that long. I'm young, you're young, we all are.

[Ben Gilbert]

This is the advantage of being a college dropout founder.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

When you start, when you're 19, it's like, hopefully we have more than 20.

[Ben Gilbert]

Years and hopefully you have like Buffett duration.

[David Rosenthal]

Yeah, hopefully you set up the company in a, especially at the time, truly unique way where you can operate the company and take that, you know, take that approach.

[Ben Gilbert]

Do you mean super voting shares?

[David Rosenthal]

Super voting shares is like, you know, the technical aspect. I think there are a bunch of technical aspects to it that we're not going to get into in this conversation. But effectively you can take that perspective in a way that if you are a CEO, non founder without a structure that you've set up, you just can't. And I think in doing all the research for this, a thesis we've developed is that that is just one of the core fundamental advantages that Meta has. So as you were setting up the company when you were so young, even when you went public, you were so young. Why was that so important to you?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Well, in 2006, Yahoo wanted to buy the company for a billion dollars and everyone on our management team wanted to sell it. And the board tried to fire me and basically in the next year everyone else on the management team left because I hadn't done a good job communicating. I mean, I don't want to blame them. I hadn't done a good job communicating the long term vision because I didn't, I wasn't thinking about that at the time. I like, wasn't thinking in terms of this as a company. I was like, this is a great project, it's awesome. Like a lot of people like what we're doing. I think this will probably continue for a while. I think it's going to be pretty important in the world. But I didn't like know how to think in terms of, you know, like long term financial plans or like making.

[Ben Gilbert]

Case to them why it would be.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Worth more than doing. Yeah, yeah, or just like, look, we're doing this for the longest, not planning on selling the company. So it's like, without having made that case, it was understandable that basically Yahoo comes around. A lot of people, it's like, this is like all their startup dreams come true. You got to take this offer because I just wasn't in a place where I had the sophistication to basically articulate a lot of the stuff around where we were going longer term, it probably wasn't super confidence inspiring to them when I was like, hey, I think we should turn this down because we're gonna do this. So after that it's like, all right, well, I don't want to get fired from my own company for wanting to build it, so let's try to set up a governance structure that makes it somewhat harder to do that. So.

[David Rosenthal]

Wow.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Learning through suffering.

[Ben Gilbert]

Wow. And being very cash generative very early, such that you had a very real going concern on your hands and you just didn't. Didn't need to cut off your arm and sell it to someone in order to.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah.

[Ben Gilbert]

Build your business.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah.

[Ben Gilbert]

I think this is a fundamentally misunderstood thing about Facebook, the startup. It is the prototypical startup startup.

[David Rosenthal]

You are the iconic startup founder of.

[Ben Gilbert]

This century, and there's a lot of people that want to start a startup for a lot of the glamorous reasons of starting a startup. You hated being a startup and wanted to stop being a startup as fast as possible and be a, like, going concern.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, I mean, I think we're having a lot more fun now. I get to work on all this stuff. It's awesome.

[Ben Gilbert]

But what is your advice to all these founders who sort of romanticize the idea of starting a company and kind of, I don't know, raising all this money?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Obviously, starting a company is not bad, right? I mean, I think that there's different schools of thought on how to do it. I think some people think, okay, I want to go start a company, so I'm going to go dive into this idea. And I just think that that's a little bit dangerous because there's this issue, which is you have to be able to be nimble and pivot around until you can figure out what works. Right. I mean, part of the reason why I didn't think Facebook was going to be the company early on was because when I was in school, I built like 12 different things, right. That were just things that I wanted to exist. And I was like, all right, this is fun. Okay, let's build another thing. It's like, okay, this one's fun. People are still using that. I'll, like, help up keep this one. But I had, like, a bunch of other ideas for stuff I was going to build, too. So I just, like, I didn't. I didn't, like, know how to think about what a company was going to be, and it was. So I think there's something about maintaining flexibility that's. That's helpful once you hire a bunch of people. It's a lot easier when you can just have meetings in your own head about what direction you want to go in. And there's a lot less pride. And people dug in when you're just like, okay, I'm going to change direction. People haven't invested their ego. And, no, we were going in this direction. And now I must be convinced it's like, nah. So I do think that that's a thing where you want to keep things lean and be able to do that. And that's one of the reasons why we tried to get the company back to being whatever the leanest version of a large company is that we can be. But I do think that there's something to that where it's like, it's obviously, it's not super fun not having the resources to do what you want to do, but I think it also is problematic to have more people working on something than you should have for the stage that it's at, because then the people who are working on it don't have the agency to actually, like, make the changes and do the things that they need to, which is less fun. And then you can attract the best people to go work on those things because it's less fun. And so I do think you got it. You just have to dial it. Right?

[Ben Gilbert]

You're spending a gajillion dollars on reality.

[David Rosenthal]

Labs, and it's a technical term.

[Ben Gilbert]

It's not making that much money. So I'm going to play mark back to you of it's not appropriate to have all these people and resources working on things for more than the stage warrants. I'm being a little facetious here, but I'm curious why you categorize it differently.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

I mean, well, I think some of the stuff by the time you're at the scale that we're at is also just about, like, what do you want to do over the next 10 to 20 years? And what do you think are going to be important? And we were talking about, like, making your own luck and all that, and how. I think there are some broad strokes that we can have a sense of where things are going. I'm pretty sure glass and kind of like holographic presence and AR is going to be a completely ubiquitous product. Right. It's just like everyone who had phoned before replaced it with a smartphone and then a lot of more people got smartphones. If all we get is all the people in the world who already have glasses upgrading to glasses that have AI in them, then like, this is already going to be one of the most successful products in the history of the world. So. And I think it's going to go a lot further than that. So I know there's. That there is the thing about controlling our own destiny. It's strategically valuable. You know, we did this calculation or estimate at some point where it's like, how much money do we lose from our core family of apps to the various like, taxes that the platforms have to like when they tell us we can't run the ad business the way that we think we should be able to when they tell us we can't ship certain products. So that way, like, people use the things less or like them less and it's hard to exactly estimate it, but I think we might be like twice as profitable if we own the platform or something. So I think from that perspective, that's worth a lot. Just from a pure dollars perspective, which is not primarily how I come at this stuff, but even now I've learned a thing or two since the Yahoo days and now I at least am able to. I might not be able to convince all the investors that we should be investing to the extent that we are in Reality Lab if I didn't control the company. But at least I can sort of articulate a case for why I'm confident that it's going to be good over time. But for me, it's always been way more about the product experience and what you can enable and build. And you know, one of the shifts, and this is sort of like a values shift over time is, you know, one of the things that some of the early Oculus guys used to say to me that there's a difference between building good things and awesome things. And good is good, it's helpful, it's useful, it's things that people use on a day to day basis because it adds something to their lives. But awesome is different. Awesome is uplifting and inspiring and just like leads you to just be way more optimistic about the future. And it's just like this uplifting thing about humanity. And so I think a lot of what we've done with social media so far is very good. Where we've got, we've built these products. More than 3 billion people use them on a near daily basis, right?

[Ben Gilbert]

It's like 3.3 billion on a daily.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. And so that's. And they use it because it is useful in their life. Right? And in all these different ways. I mean, obviously people vary, people use it for different things, but it's useful and it helps people and it helps people stay connected, it helps people build businesses, it helps people form communities. It's good. There aren't that many people on a day to day basis who get out of bed and are like, fuck yeah. Social media, like, it's like, that's right. I mean that's not like. So I kind of think for the next, for my next stage, right? For the next stage of the company, the next like 15 years, I want us to build more things that are awesome in addition to things that are good. And I think that they both matter. But to me this is like a little bit of a, kind of the next stage of what I want our company to stand for. And B, and so I think a lot of the Reality Lab stuff that we're doing is going to be in that bucket. A lot of the AI stuff that we're doing I think is going to be in that bucket. There are a bunch of things in the apps that are going to be in that bucket too. New apps too. But I don't know, I think that there's just something that's fundamentally pretty good about that and maybe it's also just where I am in my life. Right. I'm like, like to think I'm young, I'm a little older. Right. But it's, but it's like I do think that at this point, you know, it's not just a meta thing. Also, you know, in my like, personal life, a lot of what I personally value is doing things that are inspiring with people who I find inspiring. All right. And you know, so there's the personal version of this. It's like I get to work on, you know, interesting science problems with like Priscilla and my wife and like, and a bunch of awesome people. You know, I get to design shirts with like some of the best fashion designers in the world. Right. It's like I am statues, a sculpture of my wife. Bring back the Roman tradition of designing sculptures of people you love.

[Ben Gilbert]

I'm not at all being facetious, like really cool.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

No, but I mean, I think Daniel Arsham is like a really Talented guy. And I was like, that's a person who I'd love to work with on something. Let's go find a project, you know, building. You know, I have. One of my side projects is, you know, we have this cattle ranch in Kauai, and I'm trying to see if we can raise the highest quality beef in the world. And there's like, all this stuff. It, like, starts with, like, it's. It's awesome. We got. We got this steer chonk. He's like. He's. He's just the man. He's the man. We're having a hard time keeping him on the ranch because we. Every time we put him in a steel enclosure and he sees a female cow, he busts through the steel enclosure. But I feel like that's the kind of bull that you want to make the highest quality beef in the world. And we're just working with, you know, trying to do really high quality, awesome things with awesome people. That's like, if that's what I get to do for the next 15 or 20 years, then, like, it's going to be a good 15 or 20 years.

[Ben Gilbert]

Was there a moment, like, what changed? Like, when did this become your priority? And why. I can't. It feels so radical that it. How could it have possibly been gradual? Or was this just, like, Mark all the time and we just couldn't see the real Mark?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

I don't know. I think that there might have been some. Something around the way the company shifted in operations around Covid. I mean, it's like the COVID like, all these tech companies went remote temporarily, and it was an interesting period to just, like, get some more time, like a step back. I'm a pretty introverted person, and I do think it's. I need to be careful where, like, I get a lot of value and energy and ideas from being around other people, but I also need time with myself. And with COVID I kind of got that. And it was a time of reflection where I was able to think about this stuff. And we were also going through this very difficult political time in the country, and our company was at the center of a lot of those things, saying that that was a cause of a bunch of reflection. And then I think that a bunch of the things that we'd spun up earlier, but at smaller scale. Right. So the reality lab stuff that we started in 2014, really, the fair stuff around fundamental AI research that I.

[Ben Gilbert]

2012, 13.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

2012, 2013, sometime around then, these things, they kind of got started and they were Growing. And it kind of reached this moment, which is like, are we going to double down on this and do this or are we going to kind of like do this as a hobby? And I was like, no, I think we should do this. Right? I mean, this is like, this is going to be a really important part of what we do. And we had to make a really important set of decisions. What we knew was going to be really painful, you know, to go double down on those things and build out the AI infrastructure that we needed to and scale up some of the Reality Lab stuff. And I knew that a lot of the investors would hate it, at least in the short term, before it's clearly the right thing to do. What I didn't know was that at the time I thought they were going to not like it, but I thought it was going to be okay because I didn't think there was also going to be a recession at the same time. So that like, really, it's like, I mean, look, you learn who you are through challenges, right? It's like we had like a really, you know, it's like, okay, like losing half of your market cap is quaint compared to losing 80% of your market cap or whatever it was, Right? But so, I mean, these are all intentional decisions, right? It's like, I mean, there are a lot of conversations that we had which are like, should we go forward with this? And the answer that I came out with is yes, this is what I believe in. I think this is going to be important for the world. I think it's going to work over time. We're no stranger to going through painful periods. In some ways it makes the company better. Let's do it.

[Ben Gilbert]

We're starting to enter looking at the clock conclusion, lightning round territory. I've had one lurking in, in the back of my head. It makes sense to me that you would rebrand the company something that is not Facebook, given how broad the family of apps was that you've got. Let's imagine you were going to rebrand it today. You've got AI going on, you've got AR going on, you've got VR going on. Would you pick the name Meta if you were going to rename the company today?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

I like Meta. That's a good name. You know, finding good short names. I mean, this actually was a thing that we talked about for a while because it was pretty clear that Facebook is continuing to grow in importance in the world, which I think a lot of people don't appreciate and is kind of mind boggling. At the scale that it's at. But the others, I mean, we went through a period where it's like we had Facebook and a handful of small apps, and now we have four apps that have a billion people or more using them, hopefully in the next few years, five with threads, if that continues scaling. And this was a conversation that we had a bunch where it's like, does it make sense for the name of the company to be one of the apps as the other apps, as it's really becoming a family of apps? And it was important to me. This was also coinciding with a lot of. A lot of the challenges that we were having. The political brand challenges, different things. And a lot of people were proposing that from the perspective of running away from the Facebook brand, right? They were like, oh, well, like, is the. Does the Facebook brand have issues? Do we need a new brand? And I was like, we don't run away from that. Right. It's like, it might make sense one day to not have Facebook be the lead brand for the company because we do so many different things. Things. But I'm only going to do this when we come up with a brand that is going to be evocative of the future that we're trying to build, because we run towards something. We don't run away from things. And when we got to Meta, then I was like, all right, we're here. And it was around the time when we were doubling down on the investment and where there was all the controversy. And it's like, look, like, if we're doing this, we're going to lean into this and we're going to do it, so let's do it.

[Ben Gilbert]

And if I were to make the case to you, I feel the core competency of Meta is you are able to discover products in the world. You have great ideas, you work on them, you discover interesting products. And you, Mark, are not someone who wants to define yourself by anything. You want to have, like, your hands on a bunch of great controls and maximize your degrees of freedom, see where the world's going, and then have the best freaking spaceship possible to go maneuver your way over there. It seems like I would pick a brand that almost doesn't pigeonhole me into a specific future. I might be looking for something that's more like, look, I want to maximize my maneuverability.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, I get it. But I don't know. That's just we align around a vision and a mission of what we're trying to do, and we run towards it. That's always been how We've operated. Yeah.

[Ben Gilbert]

And in many ways doing what I just suggested would kind of be running. It's like, well, we don't believe in it that much. And you're like, no.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, no. I mean we're a company that like puts a flag down around what we're doing and we're going to go do it. It's like put a wall in front of us. There's going to be a mark shaped hole in the wall.

[David Rosenthal]

Speaking of lightning rounds and mark shape holes, you are accelerating what used to be your annual challenges. I always, I mean when we were all kids and we didn't know each other, I mean I was so inspired you would do your annual challenges. You would post about them and I was like, wow, that's like pretty damn cool. And then we all get a little older and we all have kids on the stage now and we all have companies on the stage now and there's some large, some small, the demands on your time. Like it for me especially, I think lots of people that's like that space gets sucked and you have expanded it.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

How? What do you mean?

[David Rosenthal]

Well, you used to do annual challenges and I feel like you're now doing weekly challenges. You're designing teachers, you're making sculptures, you're raising cat on.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

I just like, I'm trying to, trying to do inspiring things. I mean, yeah, I don't know, I'm also really competitive.

[David Rosenthal]

Who's your competition for this?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

What do you mean? Oh, I was just thinking about other things that I'm doing. I'm like, what have I started doing? I like got into all these more extreme sports and fighting and stuff and I don't know, I mean there's, there's, we face a lot of competition and a lot of different aspects of what we do. Something there's the social media competitors, there's the platform competitors. I think Apple is a bigger competitor than people realize. They kind of think, hey, they're doing a different type of thing. But I don't know, I think over the next 10, 15 years I think that kind of like battle over ideological, battle over war. What should the architecture be of the next set of platforms? Are they going to be the closed integrated Apple model that Apple has always done? Which again, I mean like there's multiple, there are multiple good ways to build things. Right. So I think if you look at the different generations of computing, PCs, mobile, they've all had sort of a closed integrated version and an open version. And the thing that I think there's just a ton of recency bias around is because iPhone basically won. I know that there are more Android phones out there, but iPhone is sort of like the intellectual leader and by far has all the rights.

[David Rosenthal]

Let's take it as a conceit.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, yeah. I think that there's the recency bias and probably like almost everyone here has an iPhone and I think because of the recency bias there's sort of this view that's like, oh no, this is just the superior way to do things. But I don't actually think that's a given. In the PC era, Windows with the open ecosystem was the leader and part of my goal for the next 10, 15 years. The next generation of platforms is to build the next generation of open platforms and have the open platforms win. And I think that that's going to lead to a much more vibrant tech industry. Now. There are advantages of doing a closed and integrated model. I think Apple will have a place for sure. I expect them to be our primary competitor. And I think it will not be just a product competition. I think it's like a, in some ways very deeply values driven and ideological competition around what the future of the tech industry should be and how open these platforms, whether it's things like Llama and AI or the glasses, or different things should be for developers, like an individual someone getting started in their dorm room, like me, to not have to ask for permission to go build the next set of awesome things.

[Ben Gilbert]

I've got a closing question here, please.

[David Rosenthal]

Thank you.

[Ben Gilbert]

So we have a lot of builders in the audience tonight, A lot of founders. We're in probably the most interesting technology environment since the early mobile days in terms of opportunity. It's been 20 years. You might have to go back a little bit. But what advice do you have for founders today on something that's different than trying to pattern match Mark Zuckerberg from 2004, given we live in a different world today.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, just do something that you care about and if you're trying to run our strategy, try to learn as quickly as you can. But I think part of what I'm trying to say is I think there are different ways to build stuff. It's like our way worked for me and our team. Different things have clearly worked for other companies. I don't know. One day my daughter took her to a Taylor Swift concert and she was like, you know, dad, I kind of want to be like Taylor Swift when I grow up.

[David Rosenthal]

Hell yeah.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

I was like, but you can't. That's not available to you. I was like, but. And she thought about it and she's like, all right. When I grow up, I want people to want to be like August Chan Zuckerberg. And I was like, hell yeah. Hell yeah. So I think that that's. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's like, look, learn from other people's successes and failures, but do your own thing.

[Ben Gilbert]

Love that.

[David Rosenthal]

Love that. Well, that is the perfect place to leave things.

[Ben Gilbert]

We made you something that you already have. A very amazing, well designed shirt. I hope you have room in your life for more than one.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

I do. I used to only wear one type of shirt. Now I've moved on.

[Ben Gilbert]

So David and I made you a custom one of one shirt that represents tonight.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Thank you.

[Ben Gilbert]

It is size Zuck, so no one else can, you know, it can never be made again. And we've got these coordinates on the back. The first one.

[David Rosenthal]

GPS coordinates.

[Ben Gilbert]

GPS coordinates. The first one represents Kirkland House, where you wrote the first line of code for Facebook. And the second one is the Chase Center.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Awesome.

[Ben Gilbert]

So thank you for joining us here tonight.

[David Rosenthal]

Thank you for joining us. Wow. What a night.

[Ben Gilbert]

Absolutely crazy. I mean, Mark has done many interviews this year, both with other podcasts and in traditional press, but that felt different, if for no other reason than it happened live in front of a 6,000 person audience in an arena. But I wasn't expecting it to feel that different.

[David Rosenthal]

Yeah, I mean, it was, I think, the wildest experience of my life being up there. I don't even know what else could compare.

[Ben Gilbert]

Pretty insane. Well, listeners, as you may have noticed, thanks to our sponsors, this conversation was uninterrupted. And we do want to reflect a little bit and share some of our thoughts and how we're feeling looking back on this conversation with you. But first, we do want to share a word on Statsig and Crusoe.

[David Rosenthal]

So Statsig. So Mark's most famous catchphrase is probably move fast and break things. But like we talked about with him, despite instilling this in Facebook's engineering culture.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Facebook.

[David Rosenthal]

Facebook doesn't actually break very often. How?

[Ben Gilbert]

Certainly not anymore. And really relative to its peers, not even throughout its past. Yep, Facebook invested hundreds of thousands of engineering hours in a set of internal tools. These tools let any engineer set up new metrics, ship new features, and measure performance in real time. That means anyone could just ship a new feature, but they always had metrics to use as guardrails. And they could always roll back a feature if anything broke.

[David Rosenthal]

Oh, man. There are legendary stories of Engineers shipping features like in their first week at boot camp as interns or new hires at Facebook and Meta over the years and you might wish that you could do the same on your team and build products like they build products at Facebook. Ship fast, make database decisions, iterate rapidly, but you need the right tools so you're stuck, right?

[Ben Gilbert]

Well enter statsig. Statsig has built the world's first product acceleration platform combining tools like feature flags, product analytics, experimentation and and observability all in one place, helping you move faster and make smarter decisions even better.

[David Rosenthal]

Statsig was literally founded by an ex meta team who wanted to help everyone build like the best and bring these same tools to the market. Today, many of the world's leading tech Companies rely on Statsig including OpenAI, Microsoft Notion, Anthropic, Figma, plus thousands of early stage startups.

[Ben Gilbert]

David, every time we work with statsig this list gets more and more impressive. Like now it is purely a list companies.

[David Rosenthal]

It's awesome. So if you're ready to accelerate your growth and democratize product building at your company, go to statsig.com acquired and when you get in touch just tell them that Ben and David sent you.

[Ben Gilbert]

Thanks Statsig.

[David Rosenthal]

And now for Crusoe. Crusoe is a climate aligned cloud platform built specifically for AI workloads and powered by clean energy. They build and operate GPU data centers powered by low cost stranded energy that otherwise goes to waste or worse gets emitted as greenhouse gases.

[Ben Gilbert]

It's crazy. When acquired first started working with Crusoe this was a cool idea. Now they're like one of the most important companies in the world with an AI cloud that's superior to the hyperscalers and a whole bunch of the largest companies in the world trusting their AI infrastructure to them.

[David Rosenthal]

Yeah, it's easy to think about AI as like oh that's a bunch of PhDs at Meta or OpenAI or Anthropic or whatever, you know, tinkering with model weights in their office and hitting compute. But there's this whole other industrial side of AI that's everything that happens after you press go on the model training and that's energy, cooling, construction, all the physical infrastructure behind AI and Crusoe is.

[Ben Gilbert]

Powering that by producing or repurposing huge amounts of power. We are talking gigawatts in their development pipeline which is nuclear reactor amounts of power for less cost than other providers and with zero or in some cases actually negative emissions. It's super important. If you listen to Zuck and others talk about what the bottleneck to AI progress is it's actually not computer, but energy. And Crusoe is solving that problem.

[David Rosenthal]

It's just an awesome company. We are super proud to work with them and to be investors in the company. You can work with Crusoe either through their managed AI cloud, which is great for startups and enterprises who want a complete end to end platform for AI, or directly as a data center customer, which several of the largest companies in the world are now doing. So just go on over to Crusoe AIAquired, that's C R U S O E AI acquired. Or click the link in the show notes and tell them that Ben and David sent you.

[Ben Gilbert]

Okay, so David, reflections on this conversation. The biggest thing that I kept thinking going into the night, as we're talking with Mark, as we're talking with his team, people kept saying, we don't really do this. Mark doesn't really do this. And I kept thinking, yeah, he kind of does, because he's done all these podcasts this year.

[David Rosenthal]

He does Facebook meta connect. He's done big events before, of course.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Right.

[Ben Gilbert]

And he does a good number of in person press interviews too. It's not like he doesn't talk to the traditional press. Even though that has kind of become a narrative. It's not really true. However, Mark has not done an external, several thousand person live thing like this. This is a very unusual format and kind of an uncomfortable one even for you and I. Like, we're so used to stopping, starting, being thoughtful in our answers and like, this is a show you're performing, there.

[David Rosenthal]

Are no breaks, there's no retakes.

[Ben Gilbert]

Yeah, right. But Mark and all the meta execs really embraced it. A bunch of the executive team came like they took off this whole day and actually some stuff we did the night before too.

[David Rosenthal]

A bunch of the board members were there. A lot of people important to Mark were there. His family came, they made it an event.

[Ben Gilbert]

Right. I thought this was a big deal for us. I was kind of shocked to the degree that Mark also thought it was a big deal for him, which is super cool.

[David Rosenthal]

Totally agree.

[Ben Gilbert]

That's one. I was also surprised and delighted that he was willing to dive into history with us.

[David Rosenthal]

Yes, we totally did not expect that. He's so, like, usually so maniacally focused on the future. And in our conversations to prep with him before the event, he was like, I think of you guys as a history podcast. You know, let's talk about the future. I'm like, okay, okay. But we want to ground it in history and he showed up and was totally ready to go back. And I think that made the talking about the present and the future even better.

[Ben Gilbert]

Totally. Because you could create these through lines. I mean, as funny as your interjection on let's go back to the IPO moment was, it opened up the door to have these comparative moments to is what Meta doing today? Is that similar to something that you've done over and over? Should we be watching for a pattern here or are you very different today than you were historically? The way that he was talking about that stuff on stage felt very authentic. And I just haven't heard him speak in that way before, at least publicly.

[David Rosenthal]

I think it was also a great way to let us all get a window into his psyche. Which kind of brings us to another point which is like he is still in it. Oh, what other founders of companies like that? I mean, there's Jensen. Who else? It's the two of them.

[Ben Gilbert]

Yeah. I think the casual observer to Meadow might observe like, you know, Mark's been running it for 20 years and most of the time these founders kind of like go do something else. They become executive chairman or they stepped into a board role or they own 4% of the companies. There's some pattern there. And for Mark, I think it was plain as day on stage, he is more in it than ever. And I don't think he thinks he's like halfway through his journey. Like, I don't think he's 20 years in at 40. I'll be done. I don't get that sense either. I think Meta is his vehicle by which he wants to live his entire life and he wants to make things with this group of people that he wants to make, period. And that is kind of the product strategy.

[David Rosenthal]

I got chills when he said the 20 year mistake and then I got even more chills when he said, but 20 years actually isn't that long.

[Ben Gilbert]

Yeah, that's a pretty illustrative comment.

[David Rosenthal]

Totally.

[Ben Gilbert]

I was appreciative that he engaged with us on the be critical of the company because honestly, I was asking that as research for when we inevitably do our META episode. I think he gave us a regret, not a criticism, but we were live on stage in front of 6,000 people and it's not really the right format for that.

[David Rosenthal]

Yep, totally.

[Ben Gilbert]

That said, obviously a very interesting answer.

[David Rosenthal]

I think related though, back to the he's still in it in some sense. Reality labs. You could look at like his blue Origin 100%. It's just within Meta.

[Ben Gilbert]

I'm glad you Caught this too. Other big tech CEO founders have their moment running the company, they take a board role, they go do another thing and oftentimes it's big and important for the world and capital intensive and Mark is doing that. But inside Meta with Reality Labs I think it'll be super fascinating 20 to 50 years from now to reflect back and say what were the unintended or perhaps intended outcomes of co mingling multiple huge swings under one corporate umbrella versus having people who are either CEO of multiple companies concurrently or step down from one to run the other. For Mark, I feel like again, Meta is his vehicle for executing the things that he thinks are awesome products. And of course it's not just awesome products, but things that could let him have more control over his universe. He's clearly a guy who values having a lot of degrees of freedom and doesn't like being boxed in.

[David Rosenthal]

I loved your turn based strategy game of get more turns, learn more on each turn. Like oh man, Starcraft Pro Player 101 there.

[Ben Gilbert]

Yes. But it'll be interesting to see the knock on effects of having Reality Labs in the Meta organization versus as a new venture.

[David Rosenthal]

Totally. All of that brings me to frankly, just my biggest overwhelming takeaway from the whole experience, which is, Ben, you've developed a really great research interview question that you use on all the sources that we talk to now, which is you ask what is the one thing that is most misunderstood about this company, this organization, etc. And everybody at Meta for years always would say Mark and I never totally got it until this evening. He's both a singular individual himself. But it's not just that. It's that a true superpower of the company is that it is architected from top to bottom, legally, financially, organizationally, culturally, culturally, to reflect and amplify his immense.

[Ben Gilbert]

Strength, which I think is probably true of like Apple, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Microsoft, Nvidia, Jensen. Yes, but we are right up close to the ways in which Meta is a sort of an amplifier. Almost like it's a way for you to take the gain on Mark's output and turn it up, you know, 10,000 x.

[David Rosenthal]

Yes. And I think what was so striking about it to me versus you're absolutely right, all those other companies, it is generally accepted in the public narrative about Apple under Steve Jobs, about Nvidia under Jensen, that that is the case. I don't think it is about MetaMark. I don't think people understand that. I didn't understand that until this experience.

[Ben Gilbert]

Are you saying Meta is still very much a Mark Zuckerberg production. I'll See Myself out.

[David Rosenthal]

Well put. There we go.

[Ben Gilbert]

Well listeners, thank you so much for joining us on this journey. Come talk about it with us in the Slack Acquired fm. Slack would love to hear all of your thoughts as well. Join our email list Acquired FM email that will let you basically know every single time a new episode drops or when we are doing something like Chase center again, to be the first to know about that. God, if we ever do something like that again. We've got a merch store. Check it out. On Acquired FM. We've got ACQ2, our second show where we are always interviewing earlier stage companies than Meta, but where we think there are great insightful conversations with founders and CEOs. And David, I know you've got some thank yous.

[David Rosenthal]

One last thing, final thank yous. Thank you to Mark, thank you to basically the entire Meta executive team who helped with the evening. Thank you to Hermes for dressing us, which was my favorite Easter egg of the night.

[Ben Gilbert]

Yes. So fun. Thank you to Jamie Dimon, JPMorgan Chase and JPMorgan Payments for making it all possible. It was truly a dream come true and that is because of our incredible partnership.

[David Rosenthal]

Indeed it was. Well, listeners, we'll see you next time.

[Ben Gilbert]

Yes, in a couple of weeks with the full show. We are pumped to drop it. We'll see you next time.

[David Rosenthal]

Who got the truth? Is it you? Is it you? Is it you?

[Mark Zuckerberg]

Got the truth now?