$400k Profit Fixing Church Pews

Summary

Acquiring Minds Podcast: "$400k Profit Fixing Church Pews"

Host: Will Smith
Guest: Grayson Borner, owner of Worship Interiors Group
Release Date: August 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the unconventional yet lucrative world of church pew restoration, as host Will Smith interviews Grayson Borner, the entrepreneur behind Worship Interiors Group. Grayson shares his journey from chasing tech startups to buying a 28-year-old, high-margins local business focused on restoring church pews. Listeners are treated to detailed insights on business acquisition, the significance of boring businesses, operational challenges, and wild stories from the frontlines of small business ownership.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Grayson's Background and Path to Acquisition Entrepreneurship

• Entrepreneurial Roots: Grew up trying various ventures (real estate, music, digital marketing, software startups), but with modest success.
  • “It was a challenging, challenging ride with some small successes, but not nearly what I was hoping for.” — Grayson Borner (05:38)
• Pivot to Acquisitions: Realized most startup founders didn’t see outsized success; inspired by the book ’Buy Then Build’ and HBR resources advocating for buying over building.
  • “I didn’t want to be in this 90% fail rate the rest of my life. I need to change how I’m looking at things.” — Grayson (06:08)
• Age and Risk: Prioritized stability and savings after years of risk-taking and as he got older.

2. Search Process and Criteria Evolution

• Initial Focus: Looked at software and e-commerce businesses, which had unattractive high multiples and fierce competition.
• Refinement: Shifted criteria to focus on local, physical businesses with face-to-face interactions, better fit with his own happiness and skills.
  • “I want something local. I want...to be working with a team, people I’m seeing face to face and, you know, building relationships.” — Grayson (15:30)

3. Finding the Pew Restoration Business (Furniture Repair Company)

• Discovery: Stumbled upon the business via a local broker, not through typical online market aggregators like BizBuySell (16:38–17:11).
• Attraction: Liked that demand wasn’t vulnerable to AI, technology, or fast-changing trends, and the business served an evergreen market (churches).

4. Diligence & Key Tailwind

• Market Validation: During diligence, discovered a major competitor, 3–5x larger, had recently shut down, and their demand was flowing to his target company (21:06–21:44).
  • “I learned that...a competitor several times his target size had recently shut down and their demand was flowing his way.” — (00:47–01:05)
• Deal Details: Bought at 3x SDE ($400k SDE, $1.2M price), but explosive growth while under LOI meant the effective multiple fell closer to 2x as revenue and profits climbed.
  • “If the SDE is then 600, you know, by that number your, your effective multiple became 2x.” — Will Smith (37:15)

5. Business Operations and Market Realities

• Business Model: Not recurring—churches only need restoration 25–30 years apart—but market is big and stable enough (24:32–25:19).
• Customer Base: Primarily B2B (churches, various denominations), with little concern for owner’s personal religious affiliation (30:15–31:34).
• Moat and Skills: Pew restoration is a specialized, reputation-centric trade that’s hard to enter without expertise, portfolio, and equipment (44:10–45:16).
  • “It’s definitely a...very niche skill...it’s pretty impressive. It’s a trade, it’s a proper trade. So...that in and of itself is a moat.” — Grayson (44:10–44:36)

6. Marketing and Growth Levers

• Legacy Systems: Business had minimal digital presence; relied on direct mail and basic Google Ads pre-acquisition.
• Upgrades: Grayson saw opportunities in refreshing Google Ads, optimizing Google listing, redoing the website, and implementing HubSpot/CRM tools to automate and track leads/follow-up (28:48–29:10, 63:10).
• In-Bound vs Out-Bound: Most new business came through inbound calls from marketing tactics or referrals, not active outbound selling.
• Handling Growth: Revenue surged from increased lead generation and absorbing demand from the shuttered competitor. Workforce grew from 7 to 11+ (52:24); however, increased capacity caused temporary margin compression due to new hires, machinery, and overhead (53:38–55:20).

7. Team, Culture, and Management Adjustments

• Labor Pool: Workforce is majority Spanish-speaking; language barriers initially affected productivity.
• Solution: Hired an ops manager fluent in Spanish, which streamlined communication and improved operations (38:30–40:04).
• Recruitment: Found key hires through LinkedIn and Indeed for different roles (40:25).

8. Notable Ownership and Operator Stories

• Employee Departure: Key tradesman quit on Grayson’s second day, immediately testing his management chops (22:40, 50:00).
• "Welcome to Small Business" Moment: A company truck and trailer, loaded with customer pews, was stolen, leading to a high-speed police chase and near-disaster for customer relationships (57:11–61:47).
  • “Your truck was involved in a high-speed police chase last night.” — Sheriff, relayed by Grayson (59:01)
• Learning Curve: Faced sales slumps, employee departures, and scrambled to keep growing, working “seven days a week for the first...six months, eight months” (51:55).

9. Integrating Tech & Processes

• Software Implementation: Used Notion for process documentation and SOPs, integrated other workflow/CRM tools to improve efficiency (63:07).
• KPIs: Focused on key operational metrics: production, marketing leads, proposals sent, etc. (65:28).
• Continuous Improvement: Leaned on outside coaching (Ryan Deiss's Scalable Program) to help develop scalable processes (63:46).

10. Mindset and Reflections

• The Value of ETA: Grayson expresses deep appreciation for the path of entrepreneurship through acquisition over the high-risk startup route.
  • “I wish I’d go back in time and give myself this book when I was younger...but, you know, you also—it was all part of the learning process.” — Grayson (67:15)
• Long-Term Plan: Wants to build this single business as far as it will go, rather than serial entrepreneurship (66:18–66:57).

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Notable Quotes

• “I didn’t want to be in this 90% fail rate the rest of my life. I need to change how I’m looking at things.” — Grayson Borner (06:08)
• “It was restoring church pews...I had no idea this is a business.” — Grayson Borner (21:06)
• “If the SDE is then 600...your effective multiple became 2x.” — Will Smith (37:15)
• “It’s definitely a...very niche skill...it’s a trade, it’s a proper trade. So that in and of itself is a moat.” — Grayson Borner (44:10–44:36)
• “Your truck was involved in a high-speed police chase last night.” — Sheriff, relayed by Grayson Borner (59:01)
• “I want a simple, happy life where I get to just build this one. I think I’ve found one that I can grow enough where I’m totally content.” — Grayson Borner (66:57)

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Memorable Moments & Stories

• Serendipitous “Sign from Above”: Grayson shadowed the seller on a bid job at a church he’d visited many times in his youth, strengthening his belief he’d found the right business (31:50).
• Truck Theft Chaos: Inherited the quintessential small business curveball when a company vehicle (loaded with customer pews) was stolen, leading to a police chase and frantic scramble to recover customer property (57:11–61:47).
• Team Language Barrier: Realized successful management required solving a major Spanish-English communication gap; hired an ops manager to bridge cultures (38:30).
• Hypergrowth Challenge: Business scaled quickly post-acquisition, workforce grew by over 50%, but with margin compression due to rapid new investment and scaling pains (53:38).

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Important Timestamps

• 04:54 – Grayson’s background and serial entrepreneurship
• 06:08 – Shift to acquisitions after reading Buy Then Build
• 13:37 – Search process, initial offers & pivot from software to physical businesses
• 17:00 – How he found the pew business locally, not online listings
• 21:06 – Discovery of major competitor exit during diligence
• 22:40 – Details and origins of the business, initial team size
• 28:06 – All inbound marketing and sales strategies
• 31:50 – Serendipitous church visit; “sign from above”
• 33:05 – Deal structure (SBA loan, 15% down, no seller note)
• 37:15 – Effective multiple calculation due to growth under LOI
• 38:30 – Hiring a Spanish-speaking ops manager
• 44:10 – Trade skills and business moat
• 46:13 – Success with Google Ads and local rankings
• 57:11 – Oakland stolen truck/police chase story
• 63:07 – Applying tech, SOPs, KPIs, and new systems
• 66:18 – Grayson’s commitment to growing just this business
• 67:11 – Reflections on entrepreneurship & ETA

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Buying “boring” local businesses can be more lucrative and sustainable than trendy startups.
• Don’t underestimate the “hidden” markets—there are thriving industries you may not know exist.
• Vetting, trust, and cultural fit between buyer and seller are foundational for smooth transitions.
• Specialized trades with strong reputational moats provide strategic barriers to entry.
• Operational and cultural adjustments are a critical part of post-acquisition success—especially for buyers switching from white-collar to blue-collar environments.
• Prepare for the unpredictable in small business ownership—resilience and resourcefulness are key.
• Tech and process design can turbocharge old-economy businesses.
• Growth brings growing pains—margin compression is common when investing in headcount, equipment, and process improvements.
• Referrals and reputation remain powerful sales channels in established B2B markets.

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Transcript

[Podcast Host]

Church pew restoration. It's the kind of business you didn't know existed. And today's guest didn't either. Until a listing for a furniture repair Co. Doing $400,000 in earnings hit his inbox. Grayson Borner had spent years chasing startups software, digital marketing, music with, in his words, some small successes but but nothing

[Will Smith]

like what he'd hoped for.

[Podcast Host]

Reading Buy, then build changed his lens. Stop trying to prove a new market and buy a business people already need. So after a year and a half of searching, Grayson bought that pew restoration business, a 28 year old shop about 40 minutes from his house in Southern California. Listen for the tailwind he uncovered in diligence. A competitor several times his target size had recently shut down and their demand was flowing his way. Also listen for the numbers. Grayson paid 3x on $400,000 of SDE, but the business grew so much while he had it under LOI that his effective multiple was closer to 2x today. He's on track to do 2 million in revenue this year, up around 50%. And listen for the stolen truck story. Every new owner has a welcome to Small Business moment and Grayson's involved a high speed police chase in Oakland. Here is Grayson Borner, owner of Worship Interiors Group. Pop Quiz what's the most common reason that acquisitions fail after close? Regular listeners can probably guess Working capital Specifically running out of working capital in Year one well, in a webinar today Thursday, Andrew Hippert and Daniel Duran of Acquisition Lab will walk through how to make sure your acquisition has the cash it needs from Day one. Among the topics you'll learn today the five ways to fund working capital at close how to estimate what your business will actually need in Year one. A live walkthrough of the financial model the Lab uses with members to size the working capital requirement before signing common misses in first time buyer estimates and how to spot an undercapitalized deal before you sign the webinar is Learn to avoid the number one reason acquisitions fail and it is today, Thursday, August 13, noon Eastern. Link to register is right at the top of this episode's show Notes or on the Acquiring Minds homepage acquiringminds Co. Welcome to Acquiring Minds, a podcast about buying businesses.

[Will Smith]

My name is Will Smith.

[Podcast Host]

Acquiring an existing business is an awesome opportunity for many entrepreneurs and on this podcast I talk to the people who do it. Long time Acquiring Minds sponsor Aspen HR is now part of Engage peo. Engage helps acquisition entrepreneurs, business buyers like you, take care of their new employees and build trust from day one. Whether it's an asset or stock purchase. Engage provides a turnkey solution for payroll and taxes, hr, admin and technology, employee benefits, retirement plans, workers comp, and more. They're also always a phone call away so you can receive HR guidance from from licensed employment attorneys promptly as those inevitable people issues come up. With Engage managing your people infrastructure, you, as new owner of your business, can focus on building relationships, operating the business and driving growth. To learn more, contact Jenny thier directly at jtheer j t h e a [e-mail] or click the link in the notes.

[Will Smith]

Grayson Borner welcome to Acquiring Minds.

[Podcast Host]

Thanks, Will Grayson, you bought a business

[Will Smith]

that falls into the category of there's

[Podcast Host]

a whole business here, a whole industry here, church pew restoration, and it's going really well. So let's get into it. Grayson, some background on you, please.

[Will Smith]

To start.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, I grew up in Orange county, went to Cal State Fullerton, and I like a lot of entrepreneurs, I tried a lot of different things to seeing what appealed to me. I was like, I did real estate, like acquisitions, working at my dad's company for a bit, and then I got into the music business for a while. Then I started, then I started going into like digital marketing, helping people with their digital marketing. And then kind of like small software companies. I started some small software startups, one in healthcare and I it was a challenging, challenging ride with some small successes, but not nearly what I was hoping for.

[Will Smith]

So Grayson, you were a natural entrepreneur. You and me, cut from the same cloth. So, you know, because a lot of people, ETA is their foray into entrepreneurship because they were kind of, I never had an idea, so I never really did anything entrepreneurial. Some folks, a lot of people of course, do have an entrepreneurial streak to them anyway. Okay, good background. Yes. And so what was the pivot then to entrepreneurship through acquisition? How did that evolve?

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, and like a lot of other people that are listening to this, like, I also struggled with finding new ideas as an entrepreneur. Every so often someone brings something up like, oh, that's a great idea, I'll run with that. But like, what appealed to me for, you know, acquisition, entrepreneurship. Like, I because I wasn't seeing a lot of big success in my startups and I saw my peer group who filled with a bunch of other really smart, talented people. I didn't see them having like big success for the most part. And I was like, I don't want to be in this 90% fail rate the rest of my life. Like, I need to change how I'm looking at Things. So I read the, the book Buy them, build that and like the Harvard Business Review 1. And then that, that just totally changed my perception. I was like, oh, wow. I've been, I've been looking at this all wrong. Like I'm gonna. Next time I do something, I'm. I'm just gonna buy a business. So like after the last kind of failed startup I went and worked in, other companies just started saving on money so I could buy one.

[Will Smith]

Grayson.

[Podcast Host]

What?

[Will Smith]

Put buy, then build even on your radar.

[Grayson Borner]

I feel like I heard it through like someone mentioned it, I think in a podcast I don't fully remember.

[Will Smith]

Okay. Okay.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Will Smith]

And I recall you saying to me in the pre call how your entrepreneur friends, colleagues, a lot of failure or lack of success, but even those that did have exits, you have to look closely at the exit. And, and, and even in many of those cases, which are ostensible successes. Yeah, maybe. Really? The dollar, the dollar amounts aren't, aren't march. So, so flesh that out a little bit.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, I mean I, I'd hear the, the inside story of, you know, companies that got acquired and like, oh my gosh, did you make a bunch of money? It's like, no. Essentially I just got hired on maybe like a nice bonus and now I'm working at this other company.

[Will Smith]

Right?

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah. I was like. And then plus, you know, you start, you starting a company, you're. It takes a long time to. You're paying yourself a decent salary. And I just wasn't willing to do that again. And then in addition, one, one main thing is like, you know, you're proving out a new market more or less if it's, you know, it's like a software startup or something. And I would, I remember particularly my, my friend will probably listen to this, but like he had a window and door company and like I helped him with his marketing back. It was like 15 years ago or something. And to me it seemed really boring. And I was like, that doesn't sound cool at all. Because I was into software and you know, tech stuff. And then, you know, fast forward 10 years later and to now like just, he's crushing it. His company's crushing it like five years ago or whatever. When I read Buy Them Build, I was like, yeah, what am I doing? Trying to prove a new market. Like I needed to have a business that everyone needs. Like, it's an easy sell because people need it versus, you know, software. We're explaining, explaining why they need it. So that was like a big mind shift for me.

[Will Smith]

And what about the concept of. Of boring as the business and why you're open to that. Is it just because. Is it just because having a viable business is more important than anything else and so you're open to whatever? Or is it that the window and door company doesn't even seem so boring anymore?

[Grayson Borner]

I think it doesn't seem so boring. It definitely doesn't seem so boring to me anymore because, like, now, I think now that I've learned a lot more, it's like I'm. I'm excited about applying existing technologies. So, like, when I. When I took over this business, I mean, that was the thing I was most excited about. Like, I saw how it was being done before, you know, and it's like the old owner was retiring and everything was done on paper and not using a CRM, and I'm just like, oh, there's so much opportunity here, you know, And I had, like, a digital marketing background, so I just saw the ways that it could be brought to, you know, modern times.

[Will Smith]

Yeah. I also heard you touch on, like, starting a business and how long it takes to get going and have success, if ever you have success. Yeah. Age is a factor here, too. Something we talked about. Yeah, you and me both. How did that also start shifting your. Your appetite for the flavor of entrepreneurship?

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, I mean, the age thing was a bit because it's like, when you're younger, you can be taking more risk. And then as I got older, I was like, I need to start putting more money in savings prepping, so I have a retirement rather than just keep swinging for the fences until, you know, I'm older, where I'm like, oh, what did I do all that for? So that just changed my perspective for sure.

[Will Smith]

And then finally you said your dad's business. So was your dad an entrepreneur that you. I'm going way back now. Yeah. Yeah.

[Grayson Borner]

No, he's. He's. He has always been an entrepreneur his whole life. And then when I. I got out of college and. And he at the time, had a. Like, a real estate investment company, and I went and worked with them. Bunch of really smart guys and learned from them. They did, like, multifamily stuff.

[Will Smith]

Yep. Okay, great, Grayson, Back to the plot where we left it. You read the books? The two books. The. The Canon. The. The acquisition Canon. And then what then started.

[Grayson Borner]

You know, I was just focusing on saving up for the time to buy a business. And then the timing came, like, at the perfect moment. I'd actually, like. I got an email saying, like, oh, we're for the Acquisition Lab. And I was like, oh, you know, we're going to let a few people in the last minute, like, we'll do like a small discount or something. And it had been on my radar for like a year and a half. And I was like, it's time. I'm, I'm, I, I'm ready. Like, I'm getting, I'm getting kind of bored at the company I'm at. And so I, I pulled the trigger. And then actually two months into the time I was in Acquisition Lab or two weeks in, I got let go. So it was just like one of those meant to be things. I was like, oh, you know, I was, I was sad, but at the same time I was like, I mean, yeah, I'm, I'm right in the place where I'm supposed to be. So went through the acquisition lab. I mean, that was, that was a game changer. I tell everyone that I talked to you about it. It's like the best, the best education money I've, I've ever spent. Because without it, I probably wouldn't be in the position I am today. So. Yeah, I mean, I, I went through it, sat on coaching calls every, every week with, you know, handful of coaches and just kept like refining my search. I started looking at software companies and like ecom just because that was like my background. Yep. But the, you know, like, the multiples were really high. And so I was just like, I don't know that this is worth the risk. Plus, like, there's, there's so much competition in that space. So I was, I was really like, just kind of struggling, like having problems finding a company.

[Will Smith]

What year are we in at this point?

[Grayson Borner]

This is probably 2023.

[Will Smith]

Okay.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Will Smith]

And

[Grayson Borner]

yeah, I mean, I remember putting in an offer on a company that did like virtual staging. That was like my first loi. I put in a company, an offer on that company. Like, so they would, if, if someone was selling an empty home, they would virtually stage the home and today.

[Will Smith]

Virtually meaning show pictures of the house. Pictures of the house.

[Grayson Borner]

Not actually to where it's, you know, got furniture and pictures on the wall and stuff.

[Will Smith]

Yeah.

[Grayson Borner]

And you know, obviously with Gemini, OpenAI and Claude, that seems insane now. It's like, oh, it's pretty much anyone can do that. But at the time I thought, oh, great. And I even talked to like one of my friends that was. He had like a doctorate in, in AI and he's like, oh, yeah, where your is that? I think he'd be fine. And then luckily I got outbid on. I got outbid on the company, and I. I'm thankful.

[Podcast Host]

I.

[Grayson Borner]

So thankful I got outbid because I just. Yeah, I would have got my ass handed to me on that one.

[Will Smith]

Yeah. Well. And then the other two categories. Ecom also hasn't done well in recent years. And then software. Neither, of course. Software. What we thought was the most coveted, the most robust, robust business model. Absolutely hammered by AI. So, you know, Pew maintenance for the win.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, for sure. For sure. So, like, yeah, I mean, I looked for like, a solid year and a half. I probably put in like six Lois. Went through deep dives and easy, over 100 deals. And, yeah, there was.

[Will Smith]

Were you doing proprietary or just brokered stuff? Online listings.

[Grayson Borner]

Online listings. Online listings. I didn't do your proprietary. Just. Just. Cause kind of what I heard from the lab was, you know, it's not your best use of time, which made sense. So, yeah, like, I didn't. I didn't want to spend my time in front of a computer all day long, every day, managing, like, a virtual team if I was doing, like, a software company or something. So I was like, okay, I need to rethink this. Like, I want a local company. I don't need to be looking at, like, these aggregate. These listing aggregators looking all across the nation. I want something local. I want, like, to be working with a team. People I'm seeing face to face and, you know, building relationships. So then I was like, okay, I. I just need to, like, get off these aggregator websites and start, like, really honing in on every local broker I can find. So I just. I just started scouring, like, Google Maps and, you know, Yelp, anything I can get my hands on just to find, like, any local broker. And I. And I'm. That's where I found. My deal is. I'm pretty sure it wasn't in one of those listing aggregate websites. It was just a local program.

[Will Smith]

Not on Biz by Sell.

[Grayson Borner]

No.

[Will Smith]

In other words, I'm pretty sure it

[Grayson Borner]

was not on Biz by Sell.

[Will Smith]

You go to Google Maps and you say, search Google Maps for business brokers.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Will Smith]

So it's your way of building a list of business brokers.

[Grayson Borner]

Yes.

[Will Smith]

Reaching out or getting on their lists.

[Grayson Borner]

Yes. Yes.

[Will Smith]

Okay. Okay. And in fact, this shows up on one of their lists, and you don't think it ever is by selling.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, I get. I get an email and it's like, oh, here's the deal. My go.

[Podcast Host]

And why do you think it's not on Biz by Sell?

[Grayson Borner]

Why.

[Will Smith]

Why are you. Do you have that sense that it wasn't because you.

[Grayson Borner]

Just, just because it, because it had. When I got the email, it looks like they, it had been on the marketplace for like a year and I definitely haven't seen the listing.

[Will Smith]

Huh.

[Grayson Borner]

Okay, great.

[Will Smith]

And, and just before we hear about the business or your shift from wanting or being oriented to E Com or software or virtual staging, virtual something to wanting something physical. Real people, real relationships out from behind the screen. What, what, what, what is that about? Because it sounds like you were. Yeah, just curious about that.

[Grayson Borner]

I just, I just really kind of started to be as introspective as possible and think about like what, what makes me happy? Like what are the things I, where are the areas I thrive and video calls or not, you know, like a lot of people, they don't light me up in general. So I, I just, I decided that was the direction I wanted to take.

[Podcast Host]

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[Will Smith]

Not just a single point of contact.

[Podcast Host]

Visit pioneercap.com or click the link in the notes.

[Will Smith]

So back to the, the, the business, it comes, it hits your inbox. Tell us about your reaction.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, and so the business hits the inbox and it says furniture repair company. And I was like, furniture repair company. That sounds kind of interesting. Like something AI is definitely not going to take over. And the, the, like, kind of like the, the numbers looked big enough to where I was like, huh? What, what, what are they doing for this furniture repair shop to where they're. I think it was like at one point around 1.2 million in revenue. And then it was like 400,000 in profit. So I was like, what are they doing for $400,000 in profit? Fixing furniture? So I signed the NDA and then that's when I found out it was restoring church pews. And I was like, whoa, I had no idea. This is a business. No Idea. Yeah, like most people. And yeah, like, like you said, like, is there even enough of a market in this? Like, how, how big is it? And then as I started to drill in, like, I was like, oh, there's, there's plenty of churches in California. Like, plenty of opportunity. And then as I, as I was in due diligence, so when I was excited, I, you know, I met the owner and you know, he's, he's awesome. And I was like, I could see this being a fit. But then in due diligence, I learned that there was like another competitor that was like five times the size, ran by two guys that just decided, I mean, they were, they were older and they just kind of retired and didn't try selling the company.

[Will Smith]

So they. Okay, so not only does this, your target business exist? Yeah, there's a competitor.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Will Smith]

And oh, by the way, that competitor

[Podcast Host]

is five times larger.

[Grayson Borner]

So, so I heard it was like somewhere between three and five. I'd heard a bunch of different stories, but yeah, and so they, they just shut down the business. So over the last, from the time they put it on market, it looked like the business was, was coming to this company that, that, that I bought.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Will Smith]

So, so, so you learned that the ceiling of your business is quite high because there's this other competitor who is.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, yeah. Three to five times made me feel.

[Will Smith]

So that kind of validated the market.

[Grayson Borner]

Yes.

[Will Smith]

And then on top of it, there's this great timing where they shudder.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Will Smith]

And so all of their customers got to go somewhere and you, or business, your target business, is positioned to absorb all of that demand.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, totally.

[Will Smith]

That's, that's incredible.

[Podcast Host]

And why do these.

[Will Smith]

I mean, you probably don't know, but why did these guys, the competitor owners,

[Podcast Host]

just shutter such a big business?

[Will Smith]

A three to five, if it's three times size, it's a three and a half to $5 million a year business.

[Grayson Borner]

I never, I never spoke to them. I don't know. It, it, it blows my mind.

[Will Smith]

So the business you're looking AT is about 1.2, 400 of earnings. And what were they selling it for?

[Grayson Borner]

Selling it for three, three times. So it was right about like 1 point, 1.2. I think it was like 1.15. Yeah, something like that.

[Will Smith]

Okay, okay. And, and tell us more about the business. The age, the number of employees, the story, etc.

[Grayson Borner]

28 year old business. There were seven employees when I, when I purchased it. All of them, you know, are like the direct labor guys, like doing the, doing the, the work. On the pews. And then when I took over day. Day, not day one, but day two, one of the key guys quit. So that was a little. Little stressful.

[Will Smith]

Well, we're going to hear a bunch of your operator stories here.

[Grayson Borner]

Okay. All right. Yeah. So.

[Will Smith]

But carry on, carry on with kind of more about the. What was the origin of the business?

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The old owner, he. He started selling new church pews. And then as. As he was selling new church pews, he said he started to get outbid by, like, companies that would do restoration work. And he was like, huh, maybe I'll just start a restoration company instead. So he left the company he's working at and started this company.

[Will Smith]

Wow.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Will Smith]

Okay. And this business was local to you?

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, yeah. It's like 40 minutes from my house.

[Will Smith]

And so it's seven guys in there every day working on pews. And it's like a. Like a kind of a big open shop, open warehouse type vibe.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, totally.

[Will Smith]

With like one or two offices, probably one small office.

[Grayson Borner]

It's like the office I'm in right now and another small room in the. In the lobby, and that's it.

[Will Smith]

So interesting. Okay. And so let's hear about the market. Okay. So we all agree. Wow. Who could imagine that there was so much.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah. Work here?

[Will Smith]

Of course, you think about it and you start multiplying the number of churches per, you know, metropolitan area times the number of pews, and, you know, you do get to a big market. There are a lot of churches in the country.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Will Smith]

On the other hand, this is something that they probably don't need on a recurring basis. They probably. I mean, a pew lasts years before it needs restoration, I assume.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[Will Smith]

Okay, so like, how many years?

[Grayson Borner]

Probably like 25, 30 years.

[Will Smith]

Okay. So. So a church is going to need this one time.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Will Smith]

In, you know, the life cycle of you. You owning this business.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Will Smith]

And so it's not recurring, but it is B2B selling to. To churches to. To, if you will, businesses.

[Grayson Borner]

That was something I like, business entities, this business. Yeah. Selling B2B. Yep.

[Will Smith]

Yeah. And. And so it's. Starts to look like a pretty big market.

[Podcast Host]

Churches are a little bit on the decline.

[Will Smith]

Right.

[Grayson Borner]

The.

[Will Smith]

The, you know, the country is getting. The world is getting less religious. Was that something that you thought about or is it just like it's such a big market if it's declining a little bit?

[Grayson Borner]

I thought it was a big enough market where I felt okay about it. And then like I said, it was at. While it was under Loi. The revenues were increasing, so I was like, okay, this is definitely making me feel better. Um, but, I mean, that was. I wouldn't say that was a total concern of. Of churches in decline. Cause I feel like in California, I don't. I don't know. That's. I haven't looked at the stats, but I don't know if that's. It doesn't feel like that's the case. Case based on a lot of conversations.

[Will Smith]

Yeah. Yep. What were some of the weaknesses that you were worried about in the business?

[Grayson Borner]

I was kind of worried about, like. Like, operationally, like, I. Since I come from more of like a office type work, like, you know, managing all. All these guys, where it's not like, you know, here's how to do this on a computer. Yeah, just a lot of, like, in. In the field work. And. And. And most of the guys on my team are Spanish as their first language. I speak some Spanish, but not to the point where it's like, I felt comfortable having all my conversations in Spanish. So that has. I mean, that was a concern. And I mean, it's. It's still a challenge, but I. I brought on some new team members which are helping with that. And my Spanish is improving. So.

[Will Smith]

And the competitor that you had. So there were. They were. They were local or re. Or close regionally?

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, yeah, very close. I would say probably like 45 minutes away from here.

[Will Smith]

And so does that mean that there is a Pew restoration business in every major metropolitan market? I mean, are. Are there these businesses all over the country?

[Grayson Borner]

I think there just happens to be 2 in Southern California. I would say there's probably 6 decent sized players in the US which pretty much just tackle all the states.

[Will Smith]

Okay, okay. And how much of the business that was coming in was. Was receiving demand? What am I inbound versus. Versus outbound sales? How much was your owner out there proactively selling versus just take taking orders?

[Grayson Borner]

It was all. It was all inbound. I mean, you know, he'd have to go out and do measurements and meet the people and do a proposal. But they. But it was all inbound calls and that. And. And that. I mean, that came from like, he was doing direct. Direct mailing and then Google Ads.

[Will Smith]

Oh, okay, so he's doing some marketing.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dense marketing.

[Will Smith]

Okay, but was this. So this was a case where you.

[Grayson Borner]

What.

[Will Smith]

Was this a case where you felt like he could be doing much more? Like there were levers to pull?

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, I thought.

[Will Smith]

To develop business.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah.

[Will Smith]

Such as.

[Grayson Borner]

What did you See, I. I saw, like, ways to tweak the Google Ads, like, kind of tweak the Google places listing. I thought those two things on its own would. And then I kind of, like, revamped. I thought I could revamp the website and kind of fine tune the conversions.

[Podcast Host]

Great.

[Will Smith]

Was there anything on the positive side that. Strengths of the business that we haven't touched on that you liked or have we covered it?

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I liked that there didn't seem to be a ton of competition. Kind of like we. We touched on. I liked the size of the market. I liked, like, the. The type of customer base I'd be dealing with. Like, you know, while I'm doing sales now, it's like I'm seeing cool churches meeting really nice people. So that those are kind of some of the things I really thought were cool. And then. And then now it's just a matter of, like, using. Using software to just keep tweaking. Like, how do we refine the numbers? Like, everything from, like, scheduling the jobs as efficiently as possible to pricing them as efficiently as possible and using things like HubSpot to automatically follow up with people. So all that stuff's, you know, it's pretty fun

[Will Smith]

to the point of the market and the cool churches and nice people that you interact with. Are you yourself Christian or churchgoer?

[Grayson Borner]

Oh, yeah, I grew. I grew up Christian. Yeah. Yeah, I grew up. I grew up going to the Crystal Cathedral, which was, like, big with Robert Schuler. It's like my grandparents were like, founding members, and then I kind of went with them growing up almost my whole life.

[Will Smith]

And so was that. Was that a factor for you in terms of kind of the cultural resonance or.

[Grayson Borner]

Not really. That actually wasn't. That actually wasn't a factor for. For me because it's like, we deal with all sorts of denominations and. Yeah, it's interesting.

[Will Smith]

Do you think it was. Do you think it was a factor for the seller or. Or for your customers? Do they want to be doing.

[Grayson Borner]

I don't think so. No, I don't. I don't think so either. Because I asked. I was like, what. You know, what does this look like? Do I need to be, like, a part of a bunch of organizations? Like, people asking, like, what's your. What's your denomination? He's like, no, most never. And I maybe had one person ask me, oh, okay. I mean, you know, they just want a good, good quality work done at, you know, a fair price. And. Yeah, but that definitely was. It was a concern of mine in

[Will Smith]

the beginning, before we get into the deal structure, there was a final sign from above the universe inside or whatever that this was. This was the one. Tell that story.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, for sure. So when I'm under in due diligence, the seller is like, yeah, you know, like. Or I asked. I was like, hey, can I come see you bid a job and, you know, go meet up with you? He's like, yeah, totally. Give me a month, you know, I'll figure out a good job for you. And he gives me the address. I go meet up with them, and I'm pulling in and I'm like, I've been to this church quite a few times. Quite a few times. And it was like my best friend from the time I was 12. His family went there, so both of his parents went there. And like, both his parents had. Had passed away. And they're pretty much like my other. My other parents. So, you know, went to both of their funerals at this church. So I was like, I mean, if. If this isn't a sign from above, I don't know. It is. It could have been any of the thousands of church churches down here and just happened to be that one. So I was like, this is cool. I need to. I need to listen to this. Yeah, yeah, that's great.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, what did the deal structure look like, please?

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, I used SBA financing, so I didn't do like a. A note from the seller. So, yeah, I just financed the whole thing. It was bought at like 1.15 or 1.2. I think I put down 15%.

[Will Smith]

And why no seller note? Typically, SBA lenders like to see that.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, I just. I just didn't want to. To be. To have that as like, an ongoing thing that I needed to worry about. I just prefer to like, make it easier on me and just like, okay, teach me what I need to teach me and I'll run it from here.

[Will Smith]

And. And your lender didn't lean on you to negotiate it in?

[Grayson Borner]

Actually, not at all. So I think that's interesting. Not at all. I used live oh for the bank. And yeah, wasn't an issue.

[Will Smith]

Oh, great. You mentioned. I think you mentioned that revenue was growing even during your LOI period.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah. Yep.

[Will Smith]

Talk about that and how that's a confidence builder.

[Grayson Borner]

Total confidence builder. So, yeah, the end of that year, I think they did like 1.38, and I think it was going to come out with, like, all the owner add backs, was going to come out to like 600k and SDE. I was like, oh my gosh, this is, this is amazing. But yeah, so that's, that's kind of what his last year ended up to be. So it was a nice, nice payday for him.

[Will Smith]

And he didn't want to retrade to.

[Grayson Borner]

No, no, he didn't because, you know, because like it already been on the market for a while and you know, the broker, I mean, talking to the broker too, he's like, yeah, even if he wanted to, because it's all based on, you know, to get the loan, it's based on the last final year. So if he wanted to retrade to get the price he wanted to get the SBA loan that I, I needed, it would have taken another eight months. And then, yeah, he was ready to sell.

[Will Smith]

And because this business does seem like a really solid one. Why do you think it did sit on the market? Was it the broker under marketing it?

[Grayson Borner]

I don't know. I mean, I mean, that could be, but it might have been. I feel like it might have been because everyone's always, you always hear over and over like, you want recurring revenue, you want recurring revenue. So I think that might have scared a lot of the buyers off or it's like, oh, they won't need this done for another 25, 30 years. That's my take.

[Will Smith]

Yeah. Yeah. And did you from then, later or whatever, during this process, talking to the broker or your seller, get a sense that there had been other. But had there been any other buyer interests?

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, there were definitely some other buyer interests. Well, I don't know where the, I don't know where the fall off point was, but yeah, they talked to a handful of people. I don't know if, I don't know if it was like, I got the sense that they didn't feel comfortable with the other buyers as well. Like it wasn't. Yeah.

[Will Smith]

Okay. Okay. Back to the revenue and earnings growth during the LOI period that was not retraded or the price did not reflect, you know, drift up because of that. And so then you had said it was about 400,000 of SDE. You bought it for about the price was 1.2, so 3x multiple. So if, if the SDE is then 600, you know, by that number your, your effective multiple became 2x. So, you know, there's always this, this effect of like, if you're buying a business that's growing materially in, you know, either immediately after your acquisition or during even the LOI period and the price doesn't change, your, the effective multiple, you, you bought Is. Goes down, which is.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, yeah, nice to see. Yeah.

[Will Smith]

So great. Anything else to say about the whole transaction?

[Grayson Borner]

I mean, it was great. Like, I was lucky. I kind of, you know, I'm a big. A big believer in like, don't do business unless, you know, you feel like you can trust this person. So, like, I just kind of listened to my gut on like, I was like, okay, I think I can trust this guy. Like, he. He keeps giving me the information I want. It was. It was just like a really good relationship. And. And even now, like, I can call him and ask him anything and he's. He's there for me. Just. It's been really nice. So that's definitely something I. If anyone's looking to buy a business, like, trust your talk. Talk to people, see if there's that natural kind of vibe.

[Will Smith]

Great, Grayson. So you get in there. Anything more to say? You know, one of your trepidate, some of your trepidation was about the workforce being different. Essentially. This is the moving from white collar to blue collar pattern that comes up so often on the pod. And you, looking forward, were worried about that how. Talk to us a little bit more about your adjustment there other than picking up some Spanish.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, That's. That's still kind of like. So I. I brought in an ops manager and, you know, he speaks fluent Spanish. So I mean, that changes everything for me because, like, there was a lot of. There was a lot getting lost in translation, you know, like, from like a per project basis to where it was bringing a lot of frustration. But then since. Since bringing on my new ops manager, it's. It's really made life a lot easier for me is.

[Will Smith]

You know, I feel like there might be. Let's pull on that thread. Yeah, I feel like there might be something there because that's probably something that people will encounter in. In. In businesses depending on their part of the country that they're in, but certainly kind of of the southern half of the country. And so there was a language issue and it was actually affecting the business. It was. I guess there was quality issues and it was hard for you to manage your. Your team through that until you found a translator, pretty much. Essentially.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Will Smith]

I don't know if. If there is more to say about that. You had the. The cash flow to do that because you're debt because you're in this growing business, and so there's more earnings being earned every quarter. So you could afford that. Um, that. That was positive. I don't know anything did you, when you went out looking for their operations manager, was that like filter number one Must be bilingual.

[Grayson Borner]

A hundred percent. Yes. Yes.

[Will Smith]

Okay, so. So this was a problem you set out to solve. It was like, I need a translator.

[Grayson Borner]

Yes, yes. You know, and it wasn't just that. It was like, I, I wanted someone that had worked in construction that kind of knew, like, they had to, like, manage and incentivize these guys. And. Yeah, I just interviewed a bunch of people and was lucky enough to find. Find this guy.

[Will Smith]

And where'd you find him? Where'd you find all the candidates?

[Grayson Borner]

I found him on LinkedIn.

[Will Smith]

Oh, really?

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Will Smith]

Not indeed.

[Grayson Borner]

Not a d. No, I had good success with LinkedIn.

[Will Smith]

Huh.

[Podcast Host]

And.

[Will Smith]

And by LinkedIn you mean their actual job posting product, not just like, blasting your network? Or do you mean blasting your network?

[Grayson Borner]

No, I did, I did. I did the job posting products, and then I. And then do. And then we do. Well, on. Indeed. For the shop, guys.

[Will Smith]

Yeah, yeah. Turning back to the industry. So I, So I was, as, you know, excited about your business after we got off the phone. And this is, you know, one of the. When I'm particularly excited about somebody's business or the industry or whatever, of course, I start googling and seeing what's around my area.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Will Smith]

And you find. I, I didn't, first of all, I didn't, I didn't Google very hard to, to be honest, but I did do I. What, what comes up when you Google pew restoration is. Is of course, furniture restoration. I didn't see any. I didn't see anybody in my, my cursory Google search that was specifically focused on pews.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

But I saw a lot of furniture

[Will Smith]

restoration, and they all, and they all look like antique restoration. You get the vibe that it's. That it's either institutions or consumers who are having their, you know, their brown furniture.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Restored.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Will Smith]

But there were a lot of them and they're. This is a very imprecise proxy, but judging by the number of reviews that many of the businesses had, like, meaning like 100 reviews and above, it seemed like they were probably reasonable businesses. I mean, they're, you know, they're getting hundreds of reviews.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So.

[Will Smith]

And there were a lot of them. So I'm just wondering about the furniture restoration business broadly, not even the niche that you're in.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Will Smith]

And are there opportunities there? Do you know anything about it? Are you just in kind of just playing in your sandbox and don't know about the wider.

[Grayson Borner]

I'm just playing my little sandbox okay, based on what I said before though, I would definitely like if you see something where the numbers look good enough where it says furniture repaired, look into it because you never know, you never know what niche it could be within furniture repair

[Podcast Host]

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[Will Smith]

so how trained do the guys have to be? How hard is it to find technicians to do this? How much moat can you create? I mean in your case you've got this niche.

[Grayson Borner]

So that's your, basically yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely a like a skill for sure. Like it's a very niche skill. Like you think just bringing someone off, you know like a word work off street, you're like oh this is, you can do this. But it's, it's far, it's far more niche than I thought. Like it's a, it's, it's pretty impressive.

[Will Smith]

Um, it's a trade, it's a proper trade.

[Grayson Borner]

It's a proper trade. So you, that's, that in and of itself is a moat, you know to, to come in off like just say oh I'm gonna start the type of business because it sounds cool. Like you know the, the company that was around that went out before me, they were in business for like 60 years and this business is 30 years old. So it's like, it's, it's great. There's like a big reputation, there's you know we got a bunch of Google reviews that are, would take a long and hard time. It would be really hard for someone to start building up a reputation from scratch. So that, that's one thing which I'm really grateful for.

[Will Smith]

I'm now going to tie this back grace into your experience with Google Ads. So it. Well, why don't you just quickly tell us you turned on Google Ads or you redid the Google Ads and whatever

[Grayson Borner]

he did, I redid Google Ads leads at some point and then we started getting more leads than we could handle. I just couldn't. I was like I'm drowning. So I turned them off. And at the same time I'd kind of spent that time tweaking our Google listing and just on the Google listing we had plenty of leads coming in and that now over the last month they kind of dropped off and I'm currently in the tweaking process again. But for a while like it was great. We didn't really have to pay for Google Ads.

[Will Smith]

I mean it's incredible. It's just incredible. Yeah, so. So that I wanted you to share that for its own sake but also just tying back to the point of value of brand and relationships.

[Grayson Borner]

Totally.

[Will Smith]

Always for sure.

[Podcast Host]

But on the other hand it also

[Will Smith]

seems like there is enough pent up demand in this market where turning on Google Ads results is, is a very effective low cost customer acquisition strategy. So. So in other words, there's less. There's a lot of business out there that you can get without having a reputation. They're just people out there, you know, church owners throughout California who are googling pew restoration and they're calling you and it doesn't matter if you've been in business for a year or 30.

[Grayson Borner]

Hopefully not. But yeah, I mean, maybe.

[Will Smith]

Okay, well how much and how much just anecdotally do you have a sense of like it is your reputation meaning it's referral business? Yeah, you know, it's, it's one church refers another in.

[Grayson Borner]

Totally. We get ton, we get tons of business through referral. But going back to what you were saying, I think it's hard because it's like the, the churches like the, the furniture is done at such scale where to show, let's, let's say someone were to do like Google Ads and be like oh cool, yeah, we want to sell you on this service to like try to sell a service with no portfolio. I mean that's got to be a challenge. And then like all the, all the equipment that is needed to do it.

[Will Smith]

Anyway, talk to us about the equipment. How much capex is in this business.

[Grayson Borner]

We have like two massive trailers, two trucks, like a lot of warehouse and

[Will Smith]

that's to transport the guys.

[Grayson Borner]

It's to transport the, the pews. I mean some of these pews are like 25ft long. So, yeah, we stack these things full of, full of pews.

[Will Smith]

And so can you do any pew restoration remotely or do you have to bring all the pews into the shop?

[Grayson Borner]

It's far, it's far more efficient back in the shop. We have all sorts of tools to refinish faster and.

[Will Smith]

But you have some pretty far flung customers, don't you?

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, like all, all the way up through, like, Northern California, Nevada. I think we've gone as far as Utah, Arizona, like west, West. West coast. Sure.

[Will Smith]

But you'll go to them and transport their pews home and then transport their pews back.

[Grayson Borner]

Since I've been on board, we haven't needed to go farther than, like, Northern California. So, yeah, we'll bring it back here and do the work. You know, depending on the size of the job, may take like a month, and then we'll take it back and install.

[Podcast Host]

Mm. And is the sale.

[Will Smith]

How, how, how acute is the need for the. For pew restoration? I imagine it's kind of discretionary.

[Grayson Borner]

It's like, it's, it's a long sales cycle. That's, that's one of, that's one of the challenging parts of this business. It's. Yeah, you could talk to a church where they're, they want to do it, and then you're touching base every so often, and three years later they say, okay, now we're ready.

[Will Smith]

Yeah. And, and what is, what is the kind of most visible or concerning wear and tear on a pew? Is it just the sheen or do they actually break or, or like, I

[Grayson Borner]

mean, they all, every job we work on has some broken pieces. That's just kind of part of it. But yeah, the, the wear where it's like, you know, there's big scratches in it. You know, the, the stain is pretty much worn off in a lot of areas.

[Will Smith]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Grayson Borner]

And then, and then, you know, if we're doing upholstery, I mean, it's easy to see the fabric just doesn't look great.

[Will Smith]

Oh, of course. Upholstery. Yeah. Back to your transition. Any, any. Anything else to share about taking ownership?

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, let's see. Not too. Like I said, day two, one of the key guys quit, so.

[Will Smith]

Yes.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah. And he, he was like a very skilled tradesman, so I had to really kind of rely more on the. There used to be two managers, and so I had to put a lot more weight on the other guy and lean on him more, but he's been doing a good job.

[Will Smith]

So these, these two managers were also technicians. They were doing the work and managing the.

[Grayson Borner]

Every, Every. Everybody is. Is working pretty much the full time. And so, yeah, that, that was just because we couldn't do the capacity that we could do before. Before I took over. So that was like a big, A big dent in capacity.

[Will Smith]

Yeah.

[Grayson Borner]

And then I. Oh, I forgot to mention the right, right about the time I'm taking over. I take over, you know, sometime in January. And it was like the. Right after the, the change of the presidential administration. And I don't know what it was like, churches weren't. They're afraid what was going to happen, but sales just were not happening. It was just nothing. Nothing coming in. So, you know, the owner was. I mean, it was part of the deal, but, you know, he's calling all these churches and I was calling out these churches, you know, ended up coming together after a few months. But it was. That was really stressful too. I was like, great, now. Now I'm in this business, you know, and then SBA loan with my home on the line, and I got no sales coming in. So, yeah, I was like, you know, like most people that buy a company was working seven days a week for the first. I don't know, probably six months, eight months.

[Will Smith]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was just learning curve, learning curve.

[Grayson Borner]

And I, And I'm still. I'm still in the learning curve. There's. There's still things that come up. I'm like, oh, I should have done that better. I know how to do that now. Yeah, yeah, It's. It's. There's things where it's definitely. It's a very simple business overall, but there's a lot of little, Little intricacies that are more complicated than I thought they'd be.

[Will Smith]

Just give me an example.

[Grayson Borner]

Because, yeah, I like, like pricing the estimates, you know, and then also, like, as I'm. We've grown a lot since I took over. Like, now we're at 11. 11 guys on the shop floor, plus my ops manager. Then I have like a virtual assistant. So the, the head counts significantly increased. We're probably on track to do 2 million this year. So it's like a 60 first half of the year. We'll say, like, we'll grow like 50% this year, but, like, the margins have significantly decreased. So I'm doing the repricing and, you know, figuring out ways to. We've figured out the ways to, like, make sure the guys are staying on track for how many hours are allotted to each project. Those kind of things where I don't think they were necessarily tracked before or maybe. And we've just started taking on so many jobs where it's like, okay, like, maybe there's. If we're working on too many jobs at once, like how. How many of the labor hours get lost from the tasks switching.

[Will Smith]

Ah, okay. Because generally when we see a J curve or where. Well, where we see a J curve, you're growing. So maybe it's not. That depends on how you define the J curve. But if it's margin. A margin J curve.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Will Smith]

That's often because there's new investment that the owner makes that the, that the previous. That the previous owner, the sell seller wasn't making. And they were. If they were getting toward retirement, they're, you know, they're not wanting to invest in their business. They're wanting to take as much cash out as they can. Harvesting rather than. Than farming. Is that what it is? Harvesting rather than hunting or farming like that? Yeah. But so is. Was that also the case in your. Why margins were coming down? Vehicles?

[Grayson Borner]

I think so, yeah. We putting up a ton of investment into like, new. New machinery. Like lots. Tons of new machinery and yeah. New vehicles. Yeah, We. We've. We've invested a lot into really making this company ready for the next phase of growth.

[Will Smith]

Okay. And so that. And that is probably why. And. And also some new inefficiency because you're keeping your guys so busy that there's probably some task switching cost or leakage.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah. And more. And, and more overhead. Well, you know, like, the last owner didn't have an ops manager.

[Will Smith]

Oh, of course, your ops manager.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah.

[Will Smith]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

But still, $2 million. That's. That's great.

[Will Smith]

And, and so that came from your hustling to proactively sell or the effect of that business that shuttered and you're absorbing all their demand. All of the above. What's the. I mean, because that's a lot of growth in the first year.

[Grayson Borner]

I. I know, I know. I feel very blessed. I'd say it's a combination of both. Some. Some things they were like, oh, we were looking for this other company and they're not there anymore, and we heard you guys were the new company or like. And we Totally, totally. Yeah. And then, like, that was. That was one of the great things. Like, I hired one of the. Like my salesman used to work for that company. He does, like, NorCal sales. And then he introduced me to one of my other now key guys in the shop who used to work for this other company. He's like, oh, you should. You should Meet this guy, and he's just a rock star. So, like, I'm so grateful to bring him over. And then. And then we learned everything of how that company used to operate. That was. That was a big. That was a big win.

[Will Smith]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah. I was like, oh, why reinvent the wheel when we just learn how they used to do it?

[Will Smith]

Great. You mentioned that your seller had founded the business because he'd been a salesman at a Pew.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah. Selling new Pews. Yeah.

[Will Smith]

Selling new Pews. Are those pew sellers, the manufacturers or distributors or what have you a channel for you or those relationships that you have in place?

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. So it's like if. If they are. Yeah, there's times where it's like, if they are wanting. If. If they're like, oh, this is too expensive. Like, we'd like to look at other options. Yeah, they've. They've definitely sent us some leads and vice versa. Like, if people reach out to us and they want, like, brand new pieces, there's plenty of times we will direct them to one of these other. Other companies.

[Will Smith]

Of course, one of the other stories fresh in my mind from our pre call and, you know, classic kind of new owner, small business, crazy, crazy stuff is your. Your Oakland story. What happened there?

[Grayson Borner]

So the guys were coming back from a job that went a little late from NorCal, and so they're driving home, and they're. They're too far from home, and they're like, we. We need to stay here in Oakland for the night. So they stay in Oakland for the night, and then they wake up and I get a call like, hey, our. Our truck and trailer got towed. I'm like, what do you mean it got towed? They're like, well, you know, we parked it here. And I'm like, didn't you read the signs? Like, I can't. I can't believe you let it get towed. So, you know, I'm kind of freaking out. I'm like, okay, we'll figure this out. So I start calling around. Have to call, like, all the tow yards, and they're like, oh, yeah, we actually. By the fourth. Fourth tow yard, they're like, oh, we have that. Yeah, but you need to. You need to call in the sheriff's office to get it signed off. I'm like, why? It just. It just got towed. Like, what's the big deal? So then I call the sheriff, and then she's like, well, tell me about, you know, kind of tell me about the people driving it. Like, why were they here? Blah. Blah, blah. And I was like, why, why are you asking all these? Just, just curious. I'm like, well, your truck was involved in a high speed police chase last night. And I'm. And then she's kind of got it in my mind that it was like, maybe my guys. So then I'm like. And I'm, oh my God. And I've only owned this business for, I don't know, four months at this time, so I'm really starting to freak out, like, and I'm just learning this like, while I'm driving to a kid's birthday party. So I show up just hearing this information, like, oh yeah, my, my thinking my guy's got a high speed, high speed police chase last night. And you know, the. There's a whole trailer full of customer furniture that got stolen with it. So we don't know where that is. So I'm just, I'm a disaster. So luckily, a few hours later, I get a call from a guy and he's like, hey, you have a trailer out here that someone parked out here? Are you gonna have someone come pick it up? And I was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe you're calling me. Thank you so much. Someone stole it. He's like, yeah, it's. I don't know, it's here. I was like, he's like, just make sure you don't pick it up any later than today because if you leave it here overnight, it'll get stolen. It will get stolen. It will get stolen. I was like, oh, geez. Stolen twice in 24 hours. And so luckily this is valuable.

[Will Smith]

I mean, the vehicle is valuable. But these pews, a trailer full of pews is thousands and thousands of dollars.

[Grayson Borner]

And not just that. To replace them would be just. It would take forever. You'd have people at church with no pews. And what's that going to do to our credibility? Yeah, so cut, you know, and come to find out, you know, like, yeah, just got it got stolen in the middle of the night. They drove it off to some. They luckily ditched our trailer in the park, a parking lot and then took the, took the truck on a, on a night jaunt and like, it was like a DUI checkpoint. It just saw they were gonna get stopped and they just took off and kept going. And I guess while they're evading the police, they ran into a tree and a bunch of bushes down a hill. And so yeah, I had to, I had to fly up there to, to, to take the, the truck out of storage or out of the tow yard because it wouldn't release it. I was like, can you guys just. Can I just sign down here? They're like, no, I need to fly up here to Oakland to get it all handled. And then I got. I got there, and it still had, you know, had a screwdriver in it. They're like, yeah, I wouldn't recommend touching anything because, you know, we see fentanyl on a lot of these cars. Wow. Okay. So, I mean, it worked out, like, insurance. Insurance covered it, which was very helpful. But, yeah, it was tons of paperwork back and forth, like.

[Will Smith]

Yeah.

[Grayson Borner]

Such a time suck.

[Will Smith]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's probably a couple days of. Of work all.

[Grayson Borner]

It was probably. Yeah. Solid days of work. Yeah. It took a ridiculous amount of time.

[Will Smith]

Yeah. And. And then the guys get home by what, flying home or. I mean, you had to get the.

[Grayson Borner]

We ran another truck. We ran there and then. Yeah. Go pick up the trailer and then come home. We had to sit, use that for, like, a few weeks.

[Will Smith]

Yeah. And so was there any. Was there any learning here or just that, like, this is the sort of random stuff that happens and you gotta roll with it.

[Grayson Borner]

This is the stuff you gotta roll with. As a small business owner, I don't know how we would do anything different besides maybe not, like, stay over in such a sketchy area. Yeah, it was like a. It was like a hotel by the Oakland Airport, which, you know, like, I remember when I flew up there to do all the stuff I remember my Uber driver is like, why would they park it here?

[Will Smith]

Why?

[Grayson Borner]

This is a terrible area. He's like, of course it got stolen, you know, but they don't know. They're just coming through for the night.

[Will Smith]

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Okay, Grayson, we're. We're wrapping up here. Anything to say? We've talked about Google Ads. Anything to say about your old. Your skill set in being digital marketing, Being kind of a tech software type person, comfortable building digital tools. Have you brought any of that into the business?

[Grayson Borner]

Oh, yeah, Big time. Big. Big time. Yeah.

[Will Smith]

Like.

[Grayson Borner]

Like, like, we're like. We've used notion a lot on just kind of building out, like, the. The company. We'll say like, dashboard, just with, like, working on, like, creating SOPs for everything. Like, a lot of things are documented, but we're still refining it and, like, documenting our whole process. Like, another thing that has been really cool. I went through Ryan Dice's scalable program, which is kind of like eos.

[Will Smith]

Don't know it.

[Grayson Borner]

Yeah. Like, he. He's been like, A digital marketer for a long time, super smart guy. And I, I just liked like how they presented it and I went through the program, I was like, oh this is, this is amazing. Like just like seeing how you plan to scale the company and not have it depend on me as much has been really awesome.

[Will Smith]

And are you finding that it depends on you? I mean what, what, what is your lesson last Working. Working in versus working on ratio look like?

[Grayson Borner]

I mean working on is pretty, pretty decent right now. I'd say maybe 50, 25 to 50%. And you know, some of that might be like, and that's using some of my own rather than like hiring, hiring like a, like a marketing firm. I'm just kind of like doing it all myself. So it's like building, building landing pages and refining the Google Ads. Yeah, but it's more just like setting up like who's in charge of what, what are all the different steps in the whole process and just like kind of really mapping it out and setting expectations and can, doing like weekly check ins on. Here's all our key metrics, you know, like how much, how much shop production did we get last week? Like what's our marketing looking? Like, how many leads are we getting in? How many proposals are we sending out? That's probably the most valuable piece in the whole thing. It's just continual check ins on the key KPIs.

[Will Smith]

Is that stuff that you've built before in other contexts or are you kind of learning as you go that, that real systems kind of, that systems building stuff?

[Grayson Borner]

I, I have used it before in other much larger companies. But this was just kind of like also like coaching to help me get there. Because you know, when you're running a business, you're pulled in so many directions. It's hard to like sit down and think through. But it's like if I know I'm on a call once a week or once every few weeks where it's like, oh, okay, I need to build this from here to the next week. And then you know, having accountability of someone like, well, what happens if this, you know, if you're looking at the diagram and this happens? Just kind of like coaching those things out of me. Yeah, that was, that was another, that was some money well spent too.

[Will Smith]

Grayson, how, how big do you think

[Podcast Host]

the, the business can get?

[Will Smith]

What do you, what do you think the potential for this business is? And then how are you thinking about your project as an acquisition entrepreneur overall? Are you gonna build this as far as it goes?

[Podcast Host]

Are you gonna buy other Businesses.

[Grayson Borner]

I want to build this as far as it goes. Yeah. Like, I, I think I'm not like a lot of other entrepreneurs where I want to own, like five, 10 companies. I would prefer just like a simple, happy life where I get to just build this one. I think I've found one that choice. I can grow enough where I'm totally content on just working on this one.

[Will Smith]

And so how do you reflect now being on the other side of an acquisition? You know, full acquisition, entrepreneur ETA guy, at this point, on all of your entrepreneurial attempts before. That's such a.

[Grayson Borner]

That.

[Will Smith]

That's such a softball of a question.

[Grayson Borner]

It's such a softball question. Yeah. I'm sure everyone, Almost everyone answers the same, but yeah, if I. I wish I'd go back in time and give myself. Although give myself this book when I was younger and wanting to, you know, start companies, but, you know, you also. It was all part of the learning process, too.

[Will Smith]

Exactly. But I think part of the reason some of us so appreciate ETA is because we went through the travails of 100, 100.

[Grayson Borner]

Like, if I, If I hadn't gone through plenty of failures, I don't think I would appreciate nearly as much.

[Will Smith]

Yeah. Yeah. Anything we didn't hit on, Grayson.

[Grayson Borner]

I can't think so, Will. It's all. I mean, it's a pleasure. Great podcast. It's, you know, fun telling my little story.

[Will Smith]

No, it's been great. Thank you for doing it. And. Yeah, what a fun. What a fun niche business. Always fun to hear about those, but especially when it's going so well. I mean, you bought it, you got it under LOI when it was at 1.2, and you're looking at getting it to 2 this year. And that competitor, that neighboring competitor was up at 3 and 4 and 5. So let's. Looks like your trajectory is going to continue. So this is a. This is a. Yeah, I know I'm jinxing you all over the place here, Grayson. I don't mean to, but it sure seems like it's on the right path. So we're happy for you. Thanks for coming.

[Grayson Borner]

Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Appreciate it.

[Will Smith]

Hope you enjoyed that interview.

[Podcast Host]

Don't forget to subscribe to the Acquiring Minds newsletter. We send an email for every episode

[Will Smith]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Will Smith]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Will Smith]

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