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ACTEC Trust & Estate Talk
How to Build Inclusive Workplaces: Practical Strategies for Neurodiversity and Culture Change
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How to build an inclusive workplace, practical strategies for neurodiversity and culture change that is the subject of today's ACTEC Trust and Estate Talk.
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Welcome to ACTEC Trust and Estate Talk from the American College of Trust and Estate Council, a professional society of peer elected trust and estate lawyers in the United States and around the globe. This series offers professionals best practice advice, insights and commentary on subjects that affect our profession and clients. And now our ACTEC Fellow host with today's topic.
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I'm ACTECH Fellow Peter Gordon of Wilmington, Delaware. I'm a past president of the College and had the privilege of selecting the 2026 Joseph Trachman Lecturer. In this final part of the lecture, Hayley Moss focuses on what we can do better, offering practical real world strategies to foster inclusion, improve communication and create workplace cultures where neurodiverse individuals can thrive. Welcome, Hailey.
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So how could we do better? I know that's kind of the big question a lot of us are probably thinking about is about this idea of culture and competence. And really the things I want to bring home here are these ideas that neurodivergent traits are not moral failures. I'm thinking about those of us who are bad at timing. You know how when somebody is late to something and you're thinking, oh my gosh, they just don't care. They have no concept of of time. They are disorganized, they don't want to be here, they aren't motivated. We go down that spiral or not just necessarily. They're stuck in traffic. They didn't plan for traffic. How dare they? I live in Miami. I've learned everything is at least 20 minutes. And I am also sometimes chronically late to things. I am trying to get better at it because either I am going to be 30 minutes early or I am going to be late. It's no in between. But we think of this lateness thing as a lack of professionalism or not caring when really you might have someone who is struggling with time. They might be time blind in a sense that they have no idea how much time they spent on something. I do that when I start playing a new game. So I actually just picked up a brand new Pokemon game about two days ago and when I got back to the room last night, I started playing it again. I wanted to pick it up because I'm like, oh, I didn't get to spend as much time as I wanted to on it. And before I knew it, it was one o' clock in the morning. I had no idea. I thought I would sit there and maybe check on it for 15 minutes and then be excited to go play it when I go home eventually. Nope. All of a sudden two hours go by like that and I was timeline. I'm like, oh my gosh, imagine if I actually had like an obligation or something and I just sat there sucked into this thing. Like, this is really cool. I'm going to go water my plants now on this game. This is so cool. But that isn't necessarily the same as a moral failing. It just is something I have to plan in advance for and might need some extra guide rails and support in order to do well with we also have unique cultures with disabilities. So this came up as well yesterday is the idea of deaf culture. So capital D deaf, that deaf and hard of hearing people have a unique culture. There's a language with sign language. There's all sorts of unique things. The same also goes with neurodivergent people and chronic illness communities and so many other disability subsets and groups that there is a unique culture. The way that I communicate and act with other neurodivergent people is kind of different than when I'm talking to neurotypical people, that there is this kind of inherent understanding. Usually when I meet neurodivergent people at an event like this, it's usually very obvious because we just become like instant best friends without really knowing each other or what will happen is I will talk to someone, they will become my best friend for the day, and I have no clue what their name is because they forgot to introduce themselves to me. But we connected on this like deep personal level about God knows what. And I'm just sitting like, you are really cool, but I have no clue what your name is. And usually for my neurotypical people and those who have been in these types of situations more, you usually start with your name. Fun fact One of my favorite human beings in the world I did meet at a conference. We went out to lunch. We were talking about going to the same university, growing up not too far away from each other in the same hook towns. We were talking about all this personal stuff and backgrounds. And then two hours go by, we exchanged numbers and I'm just like, you know, you ditched your name tag before lunch. I have no clue what your name is, but I want to be best friends with you. And we laughed about it. We are very much best friends. It's awesome. But that also kind of goes for how we talk about disability too. The way that we talk about neurodivergence is very interesting to me, because you hear all sorts of very strange terms of art. I know coming from estate planning in particular, special needs is a very specific term of art when we talk about trusts. But if you say I have special needs, I will not be a happy camper because I do not think my needs are special. I think they are just human. And I do think it's very interesting with special needs in particular, because it doesn't come from the disability community. It comes from, I believe, a parent community. It can contribute to stigma. But I know that as a legal term of art, we don't really have an alternative at this point, to my knowledge. So it's a very strange feeling for me because euphemisms usually don't help much the same when people are like, differently abled. And I'm like, what does that mean? Or sometimes it'll just be like, you're just hidd capable. And I'm like, what? I heard the Paralympics are happening right now. You get to hear all these in full force now, if you watch TV enough, I promise. And I just sit there very confused. And I'm like, why are people so afraid to say the thing? Like, it's not bad to say that I'm autistic or I have autism. There's a whole subset of issues on language or debate per se, because there are some people who really feel very, very strongly about identity language versus person first language. So identity language is going to that idea of I'm autistic, I'm neurodivergent versus I have autism. That's people with autism, people with disabilities, whole kind of subset. I personally don't care what you use. Just be respectful of whatever somebody else is using to describe themselves and we are in good sh. Or just interchange them, as I often find myself doing. But with the euphemisms, I just don't like to add stigma. And the same even goes for those really big parking spots that you have to have placards for you. You know where I'm going with this. I like to say they're accessible parking spots because they are large, they are closer to the front of the building. You do have to have some kind of documentation to be able to park in them. And it is unfortunately my biggest regret at kind of sadness to the state of Florida that I am not eligible for one of those, because in certain jurisdictions autism is enough to qualify you. In others, the family members of an autistic child can get one, but I myself in Florida am not able to get that. And I do think it would have made my parking lows a lot better. I'm just saying, because that would be a lot more accessible for me and maybe I would be driving more, who knows? But that is my own bone to pick and maybe we can pick that another time. But I do say when it comes to things like boundaries and treating us like people, this sounds very straightforward. But treating people who are neurodivergent like human beings is really, really easy to do and probably one of the greatest things that happens. It's funny because people have a lot of curiosity. This goes for all disability really is. You want to know what you don't know, just do it in a respectful way if you're going to be curious. I am an open book. I am happy to answer your questions, but sometimes you just have to know when. If you probably would not ask this of a stranger, it's probably not a good idea. Like early on people used to love to ask me about test scores, which I always thought was really strange, is that I would be far enough into my career that nobody is going to care what I got on the lsat, right? Like, has anyone in recent memory asked any of you about your LSAT score? If you're an attorney in the room. Okay, you all laugh. That's exactly what I'm thinking. Meanwhile, people still think they should know what my LSAT score was. And I'm just like, I'm sorry, what? I'm confused. Or my all time favorite is when I do community events, I will talk about how to advocate for yourself. And this happened not too long ago. I had a parent come up to me asking me what medications I was taking because they were curious for their own child, their health. And I'm like, that's between me and my doctors and my healthcare team. Like, that's not your business what meds I'm on. I am a stranger. I like have some boundaries and respect when you ask your questions. Like it like I if I would not ask that of someone I don't know, that probably is not always the smartest question to ask. So please, asking a stranger their medical history probably isn't very smart. I think we can all probably agree on that. But that is kind of where I draw the line. And also communicating directly and really kind of ditching the small talk is great. I do not know what to do with you. If you are going to just say small talk me, give me a compliment and move on. I'm like, am I supposed to start a conversation? What do I do with this information? I actually Had a very nice human being earlier say that she liked my shirt and I'm just like, thank you. Because I have no idea what else to do. I'm like, am I supposed to keep this conversation going? Do you want to know where I got this? This? Are you just being nice to me? Like the movie Mean Girls? And then she's going to turn around, say that is the ugliest shirt I've ever seen. Like, what do I do with this information? I am confused. That's the other thing. When you guys are around enough neurodivergent people and we start unpacking this, it feels like a bad sitcom episode. And also you realize how weird some of these neurotypical social norms are. And the other thing I love to tell people is if you offer us assistance or accommodations, be prepared for that yes or no answer. I get offered a lot of help I don't need or I don't want and people are shocked when that happens. And it doesn't always happen in a disability related context. Sometimes it happens just by virtue of my stature and perceived age. So I travel a lot for work. I have the rolling suitcase, right? I go on a plane, I have to put the thing in the overhead bin. And it's usually perceived that I, at a very tall 5 foot 3, am not able to do that. And there's always a tall strong gentleman behind me who insists on putting my suitcase in the overhead bin. And 99% of the time I am so thankful for this guy. Mostly because my shoulders will be thanking me more than anything else. My shoulders are always some form of messed up from this. And there are also times I'm like, but I didn't ask for help. What if I don't want him to touch my stuff? What if I have valuables in there and I want it put a very specific way up there? Like just ask. And if he. And if I say no, I don't want someone being offended that I said no because you asked. I want to be able to have as much autonomy and independence as possible. So whenever it does come to help, I always say just ask people and be prepared for either answer. A perceived crisis or difficulty doesn't always mean it is. And there are times I know I cannot get the thing because I overpacked it. I am going on a trip to a conference in next week actually, and it is across the street from Disneyland. You bet. I'm bringing things home from Disneyland and if some nice person asks to put my stuff up, it will be the best day of my life. And if not, I'm going to turn around and go, can you help me with this? And hopefully they will. And the worst thing that can happen is no or someone else will say they will gladly do it and feel like a good person for the day and earn their good people points. So what can we do? I know this is where I get really excited too, is thinking of how we allow people to really be their best. And when we are doing this, it's that keeping in mind that the things that we care about, those interests, those passions, are not just hobbies. Sometimes they are deep. They are huge parts of who we are as human beings. And those things can also be our careers or our jobs and really giving us the space to enjoy that. For the longest time. People have always been very quick to categorize interests and hobbies and passions. I mentioned before that I collect and Pokemon cards and I love Pokemon. There was a time I was kind of shamed for this because it was assumed that is for children and that is for boys. Thankfully we have evolved past that for the most part. And I'm like, I am not hurting anybody by collecting my cards in peace. Sometimes I do sell my extras on ebay and sometimes I do buy cards from other people and trade with people. I am not going to an elementary school or a playground and threatening a small child because I want his charizard. Like let me be. I am not hurting them. They are still able to get their cards. I'm still able to collect my cards. Everybody's happy. It's a good community for the most part. Except when they jack the prices up of things. And now I can't get anything at Target anymore. So I am a little bit sad about that. But that aside, it is a huge part of how I operate. It's something that I genuinely love and I want to get to enjoy that. That being said as well, having more education and acceptance of neurodiversity really goes a long way. That's why I'm so glad we are having this conversation. Hopefully there's something that's interesting in it for all of you too. And not just be getting to be a geek for an hour or so. But also when we realize that there people are masking or camouflaging as well, that we don't just look at it as oh no, they're not being authentic or anything. We realize that there's a systemic environmental or policy issue that people don't feel safe. So rather than looking at the person as the problem, we look at Our environment as how can we treat the environment rather than the person? How can we make this environment more accessible? Even today, I can stand up here and tell you there are ways we can make this specific environment more accessible that perhaps we could have had. Captioning perhaps if someone had something, some other mobility related condition that we had the ramp instead of the two little steps down here. Like accessibility really is in everything as that could have been. Not the, oh, this person needs to be able to walk up those two little steps. We can treat the environment instead of the person. And sometimes it makes more sense to do that. But I do want us to rethink differences as well, because usually when we talk about neurodivergence, and this is usually what's expected of me, is to talk about everything that's hard for you, that doom and gloom, that this is really difficult. I don't stand here to sugarcoat the neurodivergent experience, but it really isn't that ruling my world, for lack of a better description, Most people like to think of my disability as kind of being the center of my universe, kind of like the sun in the solar system, that it is impacting every thought that I have. Everything that I do, it is the center of the universe. It rules my personality. It is my personality. This is everything we need to know. And I would go as far to say as if my world was the solar system, my disability, my autism is probably an asteroid that crashes into planets and other space junk now and then. Because I would say the sun is more of, you know, your values, your core, your family, your. All that stuff. And then your hobbies are those planets, those your career might be your planet, your house might be another planet. All these different aspects of who you are. And sometimes it just interacts with all these different things in very specific ways. And it can be frustrating, it can be funny, it can create something new. So I like to think of it more like that. But also when we think of these perceived deficits, sometimes they really are also our greatest strengths. I like to think about expertise in particular, because a lot of us neurodivergent folks are very, very passionate about something. And it can be off the beaten path, like the Pokemon thing, or it can be something that's more socially acceptable, like sports. And especially for all of you here, you know that trust in estates is fairly niche. I mean that with love. There are also people. If that is your genuine passion in life, there's probably somebody out there who thinks it's probably weird. However, we don't Think of it as weird and that's a problem. And oh my gosh, why are you passionate about trusts and estates? Instead, we look at it as, you are an expert in the field and you are the person I would go to if that is something I need to consult with somebody on or know something about, whatever it may be, you are looked at as the expert. While we sometimes do not get looked at as the expert, we get looked at as the weirdos. So I would rather us really think of that expertise, no matter what that thing is, as valuable. Even my goofy little card collection. I have learned a lot of things from collecting cards for many, many years. I have learned entrepreneurship skills because I have had many times buying and selling and negotiating. I have a lot of information in detail, recall and memory. Because there are like over a thousand different Pokemon right now. It is a lot to keep track of. And they just announced there's going to be another generation, which means there's like another 200 creatures I'm going to have to keep track of and recognize and know their names. That there's all sorts of different stuff that goes into this. Even if it's socially unacceptable in some way. That I hope we have that same energy and enthusiasm. No matter what somebody is interested or passionate in, whether it is their career or area of expertise in that way, or it is the difference between somebody who loves watching football and playing football or someone who loves collecting rocks, that I hope we have the same energy for the rock collector as we do for the football fan. I also like to think of how we might be very detail oriented or deeply focused. It's not that we are unable to switch gears or we're stuck, but we might get so much thoroughness out of it. We might be able to have all sorts of great stuff to share with you and we might be really creative. I think about that integrity, that honesty that we talked about. It might not be that rudeness or unawareness or being aloof so much as really valuing that as a form of integrity and values. That's really powerful. The same with this idea of curiosity, that it's not always a bad thing. When we're asking too many questions, we're not trying to be annoying. That curiosity might be something we value instead. And there is a huge level of creativity, no matter what. You don't have to necessarily be painting like Picasso. You don't have to be making music like a Mozart. You don't have to have those skills to be creative. That when you are neurodivergent or you are navigating a world that was not designed for your brain or your body. You are forced into being creative in order to adapt, to create something new that works for you. All these different things. If you are in a room full of people who operate differently than you and you're figuring out how do I assimilate or how do I even make this work for me? Because assimilation isn't in the cards. That's a form of creativity. And that also leads to innovation and new ideas. So I want us to think about what we can do to be more inclusive of neurodiversity. This is the fun part of the day, is that we lead with that openness and vulnerability. Because a lot of the times having these conversations falls on new people and young people. That there is kind of a generational divide in how we talk about mental health, how we talk about neurodivergence. That's something that I noticed. So I am a younger millennial. I look at my Gen Z counterparts in particular and I am so fascinated by that. Are there any Gen zers here? Okay, zero. So we are all fascinated by Gen Z. Okay. So for my Gen Z friends that we that aren't in the room to speak for themselves, I'm very fascinated by them because they truly have this very blase chill attitude about mental health and neurodivergence. While for those of us who are millennials and older, we probably grew up or were around at a time when these topics were taboo. And meanwhile you have them that are open. I know when I was talking to some of the academics, they were talking about their students. Students who are a lot more open in requesting accommodations and disclosing and having that kind of shift is really interesting. But it shouldn't just fall on them to be constantly advocating for themselves and changing that culture. Culture change starts with us too, because a lot of us, because we have been around longer, we are also people who are perceived as having authority. We can be those decision makers. We set the tone, not the 25 year old new person. So we get to do something that makes a difference for them, but also makes a difference for us and everybody in between. So when we get to be open and vulnerable with our stories and our struggles, it helps inspire that for others too, while also being curious of how we can do better for everyone as well. I also love to match people to the things that they're good at and not just go for those stereotypes or perceive seed strengths. So once upon a time when I was in practice, it was very assumed that I was good at computers and technology and connecting all this data on spreadsheets. I know I wanted to be a litigator, and I was supposed to be litigating, but it was assumed I did not want to litigate. Because you do not want to be a people person. People actually think I'm a people person. That's the funny part about this. I think I am a people person with limitations. I can be a people person. I enjoy being around people, but I also know when to say when. And I am the cat that slinks off into the corner. But it was assumed I do not want to do people. I do not want to litigate. Of course I wanted to litigate. I was in theater. That's enough to make anybody want to litigate. But it was assumed I wanted to do all the spreadsheets and stuff. And I was incredibly gifted at technology, which I do not think I was. I think I was just lucky enough to be 24 years old and grew up with that technology at the time. But also the autism stereotype of the tech genius, like the Big Bang Theory, was very prevalent at that moment in time, too. But what I was really good at was writing and research and articulating that stuff. And once I got the pity look because I was too scared to advocate for myself at that age and got moved to doing more research, I was more productive, I was happier, I had more confidence. And I love getting to write a bunch of cool stuff, and that really did make things better. And it's no secret that I love to write. I love getting to geek out on anything. And I think writing feels more natural than talking to me, which is such a big surprise to people, considering I talk for a living. But that being said, I think it is easier to get to slow down and really think about what you want to say, rather than just getting to talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Because sometimes I do notice I have my moments where I just like my brain does not connect to my mouth. Other things that I really love is how we communicate with each other. Because sometimes with neurodivergent people, we all do communicate differently. Actually, all of us communicate and learn differently. Some of you are probably very reliant on visuals, and others can listen to me talk with nothing for an hour just fine. So I want us to be mindful that everybody communicates and works differently. So whenever I work with new people, I like to ask them how to best work with them. Just give me a few bullet points of what works for you. I keep this very simple. If you asked me for three bullet points right? Now I will give you three. Number one, I am not a morning person. Which means it is such a big deal that I am awake and doing this this morning and I was. And that I made it to books after breakfast because I did not know if I was going to be awake enough. I was scared I was just going to be like, I'm a zombie. But I'm just not a morning person. I figured out early on I need a little bit more sleep than other people do. I think it's because my brain is always kind of running around. It feels like a pinball machine with all the balls going around at all hours, for lack of a better description. So sometimes I need more sleep to kind of shut off the lights, you know. And that usually means that a lot of things in my life get scheduled later in the day. That I usually try to schedule my meet, my meetings to be in the afternoons if I can help it. Also because I worked with people on the west coast before and they do not want to meet with you at 6am When I was on the west coast side, people be like, great, 9am Eastern. And I was like, are you kidding? I am. I like you. But not enough to be zoom ready at 6am so we would have to have those conversations. Another thing I would give you on bullet points is that unprompted phone calls make me nervous because I don't know if I'm in trouble. If you have ever said we need to talk to somebody with no context, have you ever felt that fear just like grip your heart of, oh no, we need to talk. Uh oh, they're going to break up with me, I'm in trouble, I'm getting fired, something bad is happening. Now. That's how I feel. Anytime someone says we need to talk or they pick up the phone without telling me why or planning. And also I don't like being unprepared. So if they're like, do you have five minutes to talk about X, Y and Z? Awesome, thank you. I can mentally be prepared for that. And the other thing that I always tell people is to send me follow up emails because a lot of the time people are very scared that they are being annoying, they are being obnoxious by bumping their request to the top of your inbox. I tell them, give me 48 hours and please do it. Because that way you're helping the executive function. You are helping me know if your request or email is important or urgent. And I also will know if I mentally hit Send, but physically did not, because that happens a lot for me is that I mentally hit send way more than I physically do. So that is ways that you can help me and understand how to best work with my brain. And then people will tell me all sorts of different things. And these things are really great because they have nothing to do with neurodiversity half the time. Or they might have something to do with it. The anxiety on the phone. That's probably my neurodivergence, me not being a morning person, who knows. But I also know people who will not talk to you until they've had their cup of coffee because they are grumpy or they have childcare needs or caregiver needs and they want to get all their personal life stuff done before they talk to you. That way we're inclusive of as many people as possible. But one of the really big things that we can do here as well is this idea of universal design, which really makes things inclusive for as many people as possible. And I think is super exciting because we build our environments with all types of abilities in mind and not just a select few. And finally, I want to encourage you to build in neurodiverse mentorship and leadership to really give us those opportunities. Getting to stand up here is such an honor, and I recognize it's something we don't always get. We don't always get to listen to lived experience. We get to talk a lot about these topics without somebody who's lived it before that usually when we talk about neurodiversity. I've listened to a lot of different people over the years, and I've heard from a lot of parents, a lot of researchers, a lot of practitioners, a lot of academics, but not as much lived experience that we don't give it the same weight or. Or we just look at as we checked off the box of inclusion and moved on from there. I want more for us because the future is an accessible place. It is neurodiverse with all of us, and it is accessible. I'm certainly ready for that, and I hope you are as well. And that being said, if you would like to keep this conversation going, because I know you all have been sitting for a long time and sometimes you might get the squirmies like I do. When you don't want and you need to get your wiggles out or you just have questions or comments or feelings, you are more than welcome to reach out to me as well in the way that feels most accessible for you, whether that is email, LinkedIn, Facebook or X or Twitter, whatever they're calling it now. Or you can also say hi on Instagram if that is also your thing. Please just mention how we met because my inboxes are a black hole. That being said, I am so excited to keep these conversations going and look forward to what you will do to bring neurodiversity into your life or in your practice or beyond. Thank you so so much.
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This concludes part three of our series and the 50th anniversary Trackman lecture. Haley's perspective reminds us that inclusion is not just a concept but a practice, one that begins with understanding and continues through action. On behalf of actech, we thank Hayley for sharing her story and insights with us.
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Thank you for listening to this episode of ACTEC Trust and Estate Talk, the podcast series about wealth planning matters from the American College of Trust and Estate Council. To find an ACTEC lawyer near you, visit actec.org Please subscribe to this series and leave us a rating or a review.