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- [00:02]
A
Dive into the dynamic world of high school sports. Whether you're a seasoned athletic director, a newcomer to the field, or simply curious to learn more about this exciting profession, this podcast is your go to resource for inspiration, education, and a deeper understanding of the game changing decisions that shape the world of high school athletics. Welcome back to AD360. I'm Greg Vanderbait, and today we have yet another guest joining us to talk about the fun world that is budgeting. Last episode, we discussed a little bit about budgeting on the private school side. Today we want to take a deeper dive on what that looks like on the public school side. So we're joined today by Dennis Nelson from Riverdale High School in New Jersey to share his perspective about public schools as it relates to. To budgeting. And we're really excited to. To have you join us today, Dennis, so really appreciate it and looking forward to getting into this conversation today.
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B
Greg, appreciate you thinking of me and having me on. Scott, good to see you again. And Greg, nice to meet you. Looking forward to the discussion.
- [01:05]
A
Fantastic. And as always, Scott Rosenberg is joining us today as well. Scott, how are we feeling today?
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C
We're good, man. Excited for national in Austin. That's. This will probably get out after that, but we're headed down there this weekend. Never been to Austin before. I've been to a bunch of national athletic director conferences, but never in Austin. So.
- [01:25]
B
Austin's a good town. You're gonna like it.
- [01:27]
C
Yeah, that's what I'm excited about. Ride some bulls or something and see how we do.
- [01:33]
A
Scott, I, I envision it being a little bit like the old movie City Slickers. Just, just. I'm just, I'm choosing to picture that in my mind right now. And then I think the one piece of advice, I was talking to a colleague of mine that's down in the Austin area. Avoid talking about the game that took place with Georgia, and I think you guys will be all right. Yeah, I think it might be a little too soon for that one, so we'll just make sure from. From that perspective.
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C
Been working on losing the Jersey accent, too, but I'm not sure that's going to be gone.
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A
Oh, that's fantastic. Well, I, I'm super excited for us to do this episode today, so I think we can go ahead and just dive right in and start hitting you with some of the questions, Dennis, and getting your perspective on this. So with that said, you know, what does the budgeting process look like from a public school perspective? You know, typically when, when you're Dealing with school athletics and managing athletic department budgets. How does that look like on the, on the public side of things?
- [02:28]
B
Well, in the public school setting, a person that you're going to work very closely with on this is the business administrator who essentially is like the chief financial officer for the school district. And of course, the athletic budget is just a piece of the entire school budget. It's, you know, much larger than athletics, but athletics are an important part of it too. So when you're working with the business administrator, it could vary slightly from school district to school district. It may vary greatly depending on how the business administrator wants the AD to put that budget together. I'm fortunate. Here at Riverdale High School we have a great business administrator, Trudy Engel. She's great to work with, so she makes it relatively easy. In fact, I have a meeting next week to talk about, you know, the 25, 26 budget and kind of firm that up in New Jersey. Obviously there's much of the budget is composed of taxpayer funded monies. It's really the entirety of budget with some school, I'm sorry, with some state government aid included in that as well. So we'll talk about this year's current, current status of this year's budget, look at next year's budget, what additions or subtractions might go with that and then start figuring out, you know, what those final numbers are because they're going to want to stay within a 2% growth cap so that it can go to the board for approval and get passed without having to go to a public vote, which would be required if you go much higher than the 2% cap that they have.
- [04:13]
A
That's definitely an interesting perspective, you know, because last week when we were talking just with, with our former guest Kelly Dullard, who was with modern day high school and giving us the private school perspective, it's interesting to see, you know, the, the cap on growth, you know, and the possibility of the political element that you kind of have to play and making sure that you're being lockstep with that business administrator. I would imagine they're probably your go to as you're trying to maybe make changes within the budget and seeing what, what could fly, what couldn't fly. And they kind of help you stay within the guardrails, I would assume. Right.
- [04:48]
B
Yeah. And they are familiar with all of the general accounting principles, the rules, the laws that go with the finances for, for school budgeting and tax taxpayer money. So aside from just the budgeting component and you know, where usually that starts in November Goes into December. And you're talking about this being in place for, you know, the entirety of next year, starting July 1st. The school, you know, public school fiscal year here in New Jersey is. Starts July 1, ends June 30. So you're, in some respects, for the end of next year, 18 months ahead of where, you know, some actual spending could take place. So there's a good deal of speculation and projection that has to be done, too. You're predicting to some extent on what your cost may be, and there's only so much expectation that can go in. There are a number of things that can obviously happen from now until then that could alter what you actually end up having to spend on as opposed to what you planned on spending on. But the business administrator is somebody that ads work with all year long, not just during the budgeting process. They're, you know, a pretty big component of what we do when it comes to budgeting Monday and then spending that money.
- [06:03]
C
I think we have a lot of ads who. Listen, Dennis and I probably said at some point, get. Have a great relationship with your business administrator, your cfo. Like, those are the people to butter up early to make sure they're happy. And, like, if they need something, make sure you get it back to them right away. Right? Like, those are not the people that you want to get on your bad side. For sure.
- [06:27]
B
You have to have a good working relationship with your BA as an ad. I heard that at a state conference one of my first years from Bobby Rossi hall of fame level AD from 100 in Central High School. I remember it vividly. And I remember thinking, you know, this guy knows what he's talking about. I got to pay attention to this.
- [06:47]
C
Yeah, for sure. And I think it's interesting when you talk about, like, being 18 months ahead, because that's the reality of it. Again, the end of that business cycle is 18 months from now, and you are trying to project out. You need to be on the ball in terms of, like, the demographics of the district. You have a smaller class coming in, you have a giant class coming in. How many levels of sports do you think you're gonna have? Like, all those things become really important in predicting a budget.
- [07:13]
B
And I think that's important, too, where you get. If your BA Is an understanding person, the budget is a blueprint for what you think is going to happen, but then the actual spending may differ. And, you know, it's nice to have somebody who is flexible when it comes to that and not rigid.
- [07:35]
C
Yeah, I think so. And I mean, this is an ad podcast. But I think we wind up having some people from the business world on these podcasts listening. And so from that same perspective, they need to understand when they're doing, like, their pricing or price increases or when, Dennis, when you're, like, working with referee associations and they're saying, we want to get more money, you know, per game, that's fine. We can work with you, but, like, we need to be working with you in October, November of that previous school year. If we're going to get something in the budget that's going to, like, work for us moving forward.
- [08:11]
B
The timing element of the budget might be one of the least understood components of it for people outside of the education industry. It needs to be ahead of time, way ahead of time. And sometimes people. For example, last spring, I had a group of students ask about adding a sport, and it was seven months too late, you know, to do that. Now I had a student last week ask about it, and that timing is pretty good because, like I said, I'm meeting next week. You know, there is a possibility that that could be worked into the conversation. I immediately called the VA and she said, bring me some numbers to go with it.
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C
Absolutely.
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A
The one piece that I really like that. I'm sorry, Scott. The one piece that I really liked is as you're talking about working with that BA and having that blueprint, I think that's a good takeaway because it's like, okay, this is what we're looking to build, but there's the potential that we need to have some fluidity to it, and there's going to be some changes. And I think that's where Scott and I harp on this all the time. In terms of relationships with those that you're working with, you get that strong relationship there. You want to make a little bit of a tweak or a change. Hopefully that relationship's strong enough to where they will, you know, accommodate that and not just be so rigid of, like, nope, this is what we're building. Stay within those. Within those lines. So that's a pretty good takeaway.
- [09:33]
C
Hey, Dennis, thinking about sport by sport, how do you determine, like, the financial needs on a, you know, for all these different sports that you have going on at Riverdale High School?
- [09:44]
B
Yeah, that. That's a great question. And, you know, having. I think it's easier, a little easier for an experienced AD because you have something from the previous year to work off of. You have years of experience of seeing, you know, what the costs are probably going to be for each sport. Annually that you can expect and anticipate. It's probably much harder for a, beginning a new AD in the first two or three years, you know, to, to formulate that and put that together. But you know, I'll, I'll ask the coaches, I'll put out a budget sheet and ask them for their needs and their wants and ultimately it's going to be up to me because sometimes I have to say our coaches are very reasonable. I'm very fortunate that way. They get it, they know how this process works. It's been in place for quite a while. So I don't have high maintenance coaches that are asking for the sun, moon, the stars and expecting it. They're reasonable with their requests, but if they weren't, ultimately it's going to be my call. It's going to be my decision. I'm the one that's giving this to the BA and ultimately it's going to be the BA's decision when with whatever final product she's going to present to the superintendent and to the board of Ed. But I do ask for the coaches to give me some input on what they think their needs and wants are going to be. And if I'm in agreement and I think all those things are legitimate, you know, they're probably going to move forward and they're probably going to be a part of that. I get coaches a lot of times asking me what's my number? And I never give them a number. I say, what do you need? And then we'll figure out how much it is. And if we can swing that, and if we can't swing it on our own, you know, then we can look for other supplemental sources which I know we're probably going to end up talking about, such as booster clubs, which are probably different again in New Jersey because of, you know, and probably for public schools than they are for private schools because of the taxpayer funding, you know, that we get as part of our, as the majority of our budget.
- [11:45]
C
So. Interesting. I've always found that coaches and I said this the last time. Right, Greg, when you say what do you need, what do you want? Kind of thing, they actually, in my experience, most of them go lower.
- [11:58]
B
Yes.
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C
Than your expectation as an ad. Right. So it's not, it's not the worst plan to just like not give them a number. I, I actually, when I came in, the former AD did, did that and was like, and then, but then I started looking at all the budget numbers. I'm like, there was a lot of money that just kind of like, was left over. So I started giving them a number, but the number was less than I budgeted for.
- [12:22]
B
That's a good point.
- [12:23]
C
So it's kind of like the same thought process. Yeah, that was my like rainy day money on that was extra. And if something happened, I had some extra money or the end of the year we'd buy some big ticket items. But it's a, it's a pretty cool approach to think about it from both perspectives. But they always, they give you less than they need.
- [12:40]
B
Yeah, you know, I think it's the nature of, of coaches servant leadership and you know, their. They're willing and able to do more with less than probably people in most professions.
- [12:53]
A
I think that's a great point. You know, like the servant leadership mentality of coaches needs to really be sung because Scott, to your point, I was in the same boat, you know, where you have coaches and you just ask them like, okay, well what do you need? And then it comes back being less. I do think. One question I got for you when we're talking about this. You had mentioned, you know, potentially adding a sport. How do you go about that? Because like you, you can go back to your, your basketball programs year over year, football, lacrosse, etc, you know, insert whatever sport you want. But when you're going to kind of unchartered waters, where do you even kind of begin with that to present it to your ba? Do you have just a general idea or just curious on your thoughts from that perspective? I'm sorry, I know we're going a little off script, Scott, but it's one of those that kind of intrigued me a little bit.
- [13:42]
B
I think usually the obstacles to adding a new sport are rarely financial unless it's got so many participants that it would require a large sum of money to do. But for example, I've been approached in the recent past here about girls flag football and boys volleyball, and the most recent one happened to be girls flag football. So we're putting out an interest survey, seeing what the numbers are. Would it be sustainable? You know, from we don't want to have a program for a year or two. We want this to be something that would be sustainable if we're going to add it. The bigger concern that I have is the impact it might have on the other sport offerings in the same season and what that could do to them. So it's rarely a financial hurdle that you can't overcome for adding another sport. There's a lot of other pieces and elements involved that you have to make sure it's the right fit for your entire athletic program to incorporate another sport. And if you have a group of kids who are going to be gone in two years and the sport's going to go with it, it doesn't make a lot of sense to be adding it. If it's something that, you know, girls flag football happens to be one of the fastest growing offerings in New Jersey easily, and maybe, you know, nationwide, the statistics might reflect that, too. So when schools around you, you know, get turf and you don't have it, you're likely going to get it. Scott, I didn't mean to bring up this subject for you, because I know that was something you dealt with quite a bit in your former district. If schools around you are getting girls flag football, it might be something that you're seeing coming your way because there is a keeping up with the Joneses, you know, mentality that exists maybe everywhere, but certainly in northern New Jersey, where, where I am.
- [15:27]
A
No, that's, that's great insight to have and I appreciate you diving on that. Then one last one that comes to mind is we're kind of on this point, Scott, you had mentioned it as well, where it's like, okay, you know, like, what do you need when coach is asking, you know, like, what's my number? The interesting thing was the week prior when we were talking to private school setting is it's almost the AD going, what's your number? And you're like, what do we need to get to? You know, and that's, that's where it's kind of seeing the, the differences between the two realms.
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C
Right.
- [15:57]
A
And it's, it's very interesting chatting with you on this and getting some better insight from the public perspective.
- [16:03]
B
Well, it's interesting too. I think, you know, the, the big difference again for us is because it's taxpayer money and when you're looking at a private school in a lot of ways, they have to operate like a business because they have to put students in seats in order to keep operating that business and keep their doors open. So talk about keeping up with the Joneses, you know, in their sector, that's, you know, very much true. They have to be able to provide all, you know, the same things that the private school, you know, down the street or in the next county is providing also because they're competing for the same students a little bit different in the public school setting. But I don't know that public schools, coaches look at it that way. You know, if they, they go to plenty of other schools during the course of the year. And when they see something, you know, that could give an advantage to a school, they're certainly going to want to have that, too. So I think with regard to that whole, you know, what's your number? And to Scott's point, they tend to ask for less than they need. Again, it comes down to needs and wants. First and foremost, we're going to provide the safety equipment that's needed to run that program. That's going to come from the school, that's going to come from our budget. We don't want that coming from somewhere else. We want to provide the uniforms. Of course, things that you need annually, footballs, volleyball, soccer balls, you know, you need to replenish and replace those every year. And then if there are other big ticket items, you know, those are. And even when it comes to uniforms, you kind of have to get on a rotational basis with that. Can't buy everybody uniforms in the same year. Nobody's got that kind of budget in the public schools that I know of, so you got to kind of stagger that schedule of buying uniforms. And the same is true of the big ticket items. I kind of, you know, would ask for that to be separate from what they think they need for the year and kind of like a wish list type of thing. And it might not happen that year, but we usually try to make that happen within two or three years if it's something that the coach can justify the need for and is going to help make their program. We're really. We're about trying to provide the resources coaches need, they think, to make their program successful.
- [18:19]
A
I think that's actually a great segue into the next question that we got coming up. You know, because you sit there and you look at the needs and the wants, right? You know, you're going to make sure that the needs are taken care of first when you're going through your budgeting process. But that's not going to stop coaches from coming to you with their want list. And they can be pretty relentless. I can speak firsthand that I loved all the coaches I work with, but some of them would definitely press the issue if they had the opportunity and could corn you next to the water cooler and bend your ear about it a little bit. But, like, when it comes to those. Those wants or, you know, additional needs, how can you really kind of leverage community fundraisers, booster clubs, to be able to contribute to that, to assist in whether it be a specific sport or the overall athletic budget?
- [19:06]
B
That's a great question. Before I answer that, I would Just say, I think we probably all too have an appreciation for the coach who's looking for those things as well. You know, you like a coach who's invested in the program and wants to succeed. So I don't find that as being, you know, an annoying aspect of, you know, you know, coaches. I think you kind of can appreciate that. And if you need to, you know, sometimes the booster club is great for smaller items, like, you know, T shirts for a tournament they're going to or something. You know, that's like a good booster dinners that they're going to do on, you know, nights before games, you know, for the bigger ticket items. The setup that we have at our school is just about every sport has their own booster club that is, you know, specific to their interests, to their wants, to their needs. You have the people whose children are going to benefit directly from their involvement in it and the fundraising from it. So I think that's a good aspect of those individual team boosters. And we also have kind of an overarching larger booster club called the Friends of Riverdale, which helped us build the field house, you know, 18 years ago, and does things like improvements in the auditorium or lighting on the pathway down to the fields. So I think we kind of get the best of both worlds at my school in that regard with booster club involvement. And it's interesting to me that throughout my career, schools that have the individual booster clubs feel that the overarching booster club, if that's all there is, might be better. And the ones that have the larger booster club think it would be better to have the individual booster clubs. And I think actually the, you know, the secret sauce is to try and have both, you know, because you can do all the little things that the teams need and maybe some bigger things for your facility and for your school with that larger booster club where everybody's kind of pulling in the same direction and contributing to the same larger goals.
- [21:08]
A
It's almost like a collegiate model when you kind of think about it, right. You know, because you're going to have setting up all the alumni for particular donations to things for the betterment of where they spent some of their fondest years. Right. And then also going to program specific. So that's. I could certainly see that where having both is going to be the best of it and then also see it from the side of, like, well, you know, they have it this way. And I feel like it would be better if we had it this way. You know, that's. That's pretty insightful and helpful to understand from the booster perspective, because where I came from, we didn't have booster clubs. Like, we had to keep alumni happening. We had to do a lot of fundraising and things like that. So it is interesting to kind of see how that operates and how it can play within the community aspect, if.
- [21:52]
B
You will see in that way in New Jersey. I know I'm very fortunate, and a lot of our coaches are, too. They're really not involved in fundraising, which I know blows the mind of people, you know, around the country. And when I was at a national conference years ago and we were talking about, you know, sources of funding and I talked about the taxpayer piece of it, they, you know, some states, they couldn't believe it because so much of what they have to do is fundraising or corporate sponsorship or small business sponsorship. So in New Jersey, we're kind of very fortunate that way that really the people doing the fundraising are the parents that are in the program. And I have to say this too, we've been very lucky here, Very fortunate. All of the people that have been involved in that are coming from the right mindset, you know, they're not intrusive, they're not over involved. They're doing it for the right reasons. They're supportive, you know, which is exactly what you would hope for in that setup. It's not the booster president nightmare scenario at all. We haven't had any of that. It's not a power trip. It's a, you know, people that are, you know, have the. Their heart and mind in the right place with what they're trying to do for their high school student athletes and their teammates.
- [23:03]
A
That's fantastic.
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C
Grass is always greener. Right? I was thinking, as you're saying that, Dennis, like thinking about property taxes and 95 of them go to schools in New Jersey.
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B
Correct.
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C
So, like, people's minds are blown that you are pretty much completely financed by your community. On the other hand, those are the same people that are paying the taxes in the community to finance it. Right. So, like, it's.
- [23:29]
B
That's an excellent point. You know, if you, if we brought property tax bills and compared them, it would open up a different avenue to that conversation. Definitely.
- [23:39]
C
You're getting your money from somewhere. It's just a matter of how you're.
- [23:42]
B
Doing it, how you're getting it.
- [23:44]
C
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [23:47]
A
You just don't tell them the number, right, Scott?
- [23:50]
C
They're telling me the number to pay in taxes. They're telling me. Dennis, any like nightmares, nightmare scenarios, or really big challenges that you've had with either creating a budget or something that happens maybe during the year that you're not prepared for.
- [24:08]
B
Yeah, I would say the biggest nightmare scenario, Scott, and you're going to remember this is when a lot of state funding got pulled. I want to say it was 2012. So, you know, we're going on 12, 13 years ago, and in March, you know, you kind of found out that money you thought was going to be there for next year was not going to be there. And so now when I get, you know, to the office, I'm being told by the super and by the ba, hey, you got to cut this much from your budget for next year. And it was a big number. And there's no way you can make those kind of cuts without cutting programs and without cutting personnel, because that's where a lot of that, you know, money lies in salaries. So that was probably the worst budget scenario that I ever faced. And even just this past year, there were some state budget cuts that affected the school. And it's interesting because everybody planned on those cuts, but then the money was restored later and those cuts didn't have to be made. But even in the planning of having to do it and starting to think of, you know, we're going to, we're going to have to cut our middle school sports, almost certainly if we're going to try and maintain all of our varsity sports. What's our most expensive varsity sport? Most people would think football. Well, ice hockey is very expensive, especially when you do it based on a per student athlete cost. You know, are we going to get rid of that? We've had it forever, you know, that and who, who that affects. So that was probably the worst case scenario. And as it turned out, much like this past year, it didn't end up being as bad as we thought. And things that we had put on the chopping block and announced were going to be cut were able to be restored, you know, through miracles in the BA office. I'm not even sure how, but it didn't end up being as bad as initially thought that that's difficult when you already have the plan and then kind of, I don't want to say the rules to the game change in the middle, but it's kind of what it was like. And that money gets pulled, money that you're anticipating, that you've kind of always gotten. And now you have to make budget cuts. And when those budget cuts affect programs and sport offerings and coaches, that's. That's difficult. That was the toughest one.
- [26:22]
C
Yeah, I remember That I think Greg was about 12 years old in 2012. He may not remember that one as well, but I remember that.
- [26:33]
B
New Jersey it was.
- [26:34]
C
Yeah, it was. But, you know, what's interesting is, like, we didn't have the infrastructure in place, meaning, like the booster clubs who were used to raising money, not like a go raise this much more if you've already raised this, like, in place for something like that. Whereas I think maybe some other places would have had just a little bit better foundation for that rainy day scenario. I remember cutting freshman sports, having, you know, some fundraising have to take place that people weren't ready for.
- [27:05]
B
That kind of like you said, you're gonna get that money from somewhere, but how many times can you go to that? Well, and how deep is that? Well, you know, it. Eventually it's going to run out. And that's the situation we were kind of all faced with at that time. And, you know, I hope to never have to deal with that again.
- [27:23]
A
Well, and it's tough, too, because not only are you facing that budgetary crisis, right, where you're having to make difficult decisions, then you become the face of the difficult decisions and the, the backlash of it too, you know, so there's. There's not easy choices to be made in those types of scenarios. And it sounds like in your situation, it came out probably as best as it could have with what was thrown your way. You know, it's still not easy, though, because ultimately the people that are suffering are going to be the kids that have opportunities taken away from them, the coaches that want to do what they love. And it's. It's never an easy situation.
- [27:59]
B
Look, I, I was making those recommendations. The suggestions were mine. And while I had great administrative support from, you know, the superintendent, the BA principal and so forth, everybody knew who was making the, you know, who was making the recommendations and the suggestions. So I had some tough phone calls, some tough emails, some tough, you know, questions to answer about why, you know, why this one, why that one, why us? That was not a lot of fun.
- [28:25]
A
Well, and plus two, I mean, even as you present the case, emotions are going to be involved. Right. You know, and it doesn't make it an easy scenario. And I think that many times people that are outside of the AD world don't realize how those types of decisions weigh on athletic directors and how you have to be able to navigate that and ultimately making choices that are for the betterment of your overall department. That's not an easy situation to be in, for sure. And I think that kind of segues nicely to, to the next topic of conversation. So when you're, when you're faced with those types of scenarios or just in general, you know, trying to find ways to help support your athletic department, what type of partnerships with local businesses, sponsorships, how do you get some extended community involvement, if you will.
- [29:16]
B
Another great question. And in New Jersey, it's interesting because donations are welcome and, you know, they receive board approval. But it's interesting about. We can't really solicit, you know, in, in my role as an administrator, as an agent of the school, I have to be very careful about, you know, because we're receiving that. Those taxpayer money in the state aid, you know, soliciting corporate sponsorships. School districts, from district to district can be very different with this. Some districts are all about get as many corporate sponsors as you can, will put their sign up at the stadium or in the gym. And others don't do that. You know, there's a moratorium on it. They won't allow it. They don't want to see those corporate signs up or, you know, the local businesses being advertised for having donated. So it can be very different from town to town here with regard to that. It's almost as if, if somebody comes to you and they want to do it, that's okay. Now you can have a conversation, but for me to cold call or drop in on a place of business and ask if they'd be willing, that would not be well received here by, you know, the people on my board of Ed. It's almost like I'm panhandling and given the money that we get, you know, my suit, my previous superintendent, my current superintendent, they don't want our student athletes out there begging for money either, you know, to, if I can use that term, fundraising is okay, but not to just go out and ask for coin drops or, you know, walk into if there. If the business is going to advertise on a poster of the student athletes, that's fine. Something like that, you know, they can do. They can solicit that money. So it really depends here. And that can go be very different from, from school district to school district in terms of their philosophy.
- [31:16]
A
Scott, I, I don't know if you remember last episode, but I remember Kelly had a couple points where you kind of sit there and you're like, whoa, mind blown, right? Coming from the private side of things, hearing, not having the ability to kind of go and solicit that, that this is my mind blown moment, Scott, where I'm just like, my goodness. Because I mean, you look at the private side of things, you have like offices of advancement and you know, you have positions like athletic directors, where part of their title may be, you know, director of corporate sponsorships and things like that. So it is completely different avenues. And then also interesting to hear from, from your perspective as well, is, you know, the interpretation of that from district to district, town to town is a little bit of a sliding scale too. So that's. Scott, this is my mind blown moment from, from the budgeting perspective, for sure.
- [32:04]
C
I'm glad we could do that to you. New Jersey has like a big time home rule state too, where there's a. Dennis lives in Bergen County. In some parts of his county, if you drive three miles, first of all, it takes you 35 minutes to drive those three miles. But you might pass by four separate high schools. That's literally driving. So like, everybody kind of wants to take ownership of their own little communities and set their own rules and things like that.
- [32:29]
B
So it is extremely provincial.
- [32:31]
C
Yes. So I get that. You know, it's. I've always thought that when you're talking to businesses, it's just so important to try and create win, win scenarios as opposed to just asking for like that handout. So how can we help you get more business at the same time? Hey, can I have a car wash at your business so that like you turn the water on and we're gonna do it right in front of your store and then all of a sudden people are gonna go in and buy like pizza and drinks because they're hungry while they're there. Or I don't know, we're going to do test drives at the local, local car dealership. You know, if you come down, you can drive a car, test a car, but we're going to get something back for it because the handout piece is really hard. As Dennis said, most of those businesses are paying a pretty good amount of local taxes that are supporting those schools. And you know, last thing is, everybody knows they tend to get hit up by everybody.
- [33:22]
B
Everybody.
- [33:23]
C
Yeah. So it's like, how much can you continue to go at these people? So.
- [33:27]
B
And there are plenty of schools here, Scott, as you know, that have the bank or the car dealership sign on the scoreboard or down at the stadium. But there are. What people probably don't realize is that many districts may have been approached and said, you know, we're okay, no thanks, you know, we're not going to put up the corporate sign. You know, at the public school field.
- [33:51]
C
Captive audience kind of, they're watching. I mean, last thing I'll mention, Covid, I remember, like it started this movement to try and give back to the businesses because they were hurting so much, like in town. But my hope is that that's carried on a little bit. And it's not just we helped out those businesses because they needed it right at that time, but that they help us and like quid pro quo kind of thing, like we're trying to help them at the same time.
- [34:19]
B
And what's interesting too is like here we have plenty of local businesses that are so supportive of what we do and give a lot of their services, a lot of their goods. But it's not necessarily the corporate sponsorship type of model like you're talking about in a private school setup, you know, like you talked about last week. Probably quite different.
- [34:42]
A
Definitely interesting to see the different size of the coin, if you will, you know, because it's. It's two different worlds but competing against each other in many times, you know what I mean? So that's fantastic. I appreciate the insights on that. In terms of cost cutting without compromising, you know, we mentioned previously about when you got thrown a gigantic curveball and kind of having to make some very difficult decisions in scenarios where you do have to do cost cutting it. But it's not necessarily to that dramatic extent where you're having massive cuts taking place. What are some areas that you could advise ADS to look to when, hey, we gotta trim our budget down a little bit? You don't want to compromise your department. You don't want to compromise the programs that are, you know, taking part of your department. What, what would be some advice when you're looking at cutting costs but not, you know, impacting the. The programs are compromising their integrity and ability to operate.
- [35:44]
B
I think if you have to do this, compromise and impact are the two key words. And there is going to be some impact. Regardless of what advice you can give, there is going to be some compromise. You can take whatever the pain is and spread it across all the programs to try and minimize it for everybody. You know, that might be cutting down on the number. Every time you have a game, it costs money. Either paying for a bus to go there or you're paying for officials and game help to host it. So, you know, it could be that you have a few less games, but who does that impact? Well, it affects the kids now. They are getting less of an experience. So it's not a great option. But if nothing else, you can spread that through all of your programs. If you had to. Or, you know, the other one is, do you just impact one program like we were talking about earlier? Do you eliminate a middle school sports program so that no other programs are affected at all? And who does that affect? Well, it affects people in that sport specifically. So I almost don't know that you can do it without impact or do it without significant compromise. I guess the preference for me would be to try and spread it across all of them. So you're maintaining your programs and having as minimal an impact on all of them as you can. But there is impact nonetheless.
- [37:11]
A
And I think that that's a great approach to it, too, because, I mean, on the private side of things, like, that's something that we came across, the funding may not be there. You may not have the number, if you will, to support however many levels you're trying to have. Maybe you have to consolidate, and now you have a frosh soft team rather than just your true freshman level team. And to your point, there's going to be an impact because now it's taking away some opportunities for kids. But I do think that the overarching viewpoint is you got to try and find ways within the programs themselves and bringing it to them and communicating. Hey, there's going to be some things that we have to kind of tighten up our financial belt strap, if you will, to ensure that we can still provide everything that's necessary for the kids.
- [37:57]
B
Probably the number one compromise that's been made in New Jersey has been the change in level offerings. And you just alluded to that and said that, which is an excellent point. So instead of the three traditional, maybe freshman, JV and varsity, you're seeing a lot of two levels, either freshman and jv. I'm sorry, either varsity and jv or varsity and a frosh soft. You know, that's one way because you might be able to keep the same number of participants, but, you know, you're eliminating an entire schedule. So there are definitely less kids getting into less games, but it might be the least painful way of doing it or the where you're compromising the least and impacting the least.
- [38:41]
C
Dennis, I was thinking exactly the way you were when you talked about games or scrimmages or for some schools, like, transportation is really expensive. They don't have their own. So maybe that's like, hey, listen, we got to play a couple more independent games at home. Like, as an ada, I got to go out and schedule. I got to call a colleague up and say, listen, you know, maybe we're supposed to come to you this year. But like, do me a favor, come back to me for two years in a row, I'll make it up to you next year. Just because the referee fee is less than the cost of transportation or cut down on a scrimmage if you have to. You may have. I've always thought this way too. Like, I don't know what co ops look like across the country, but you may have some of your lower level programs or smaller programs that you're really just like struggling on a numbers basis just to get a team. But the cost winds up pretty much being the same If I've got 12 kids on a soccer team or I've got 23 on the soccer team. Besides for uniforms, there's not too much of a difference in what it cost me to run that program. So maybe you say, hey, is one of my neighbors struggling the same way and does it make more sense to combine or maybe combine it again at the lower levels for a co op and not lose your varsity identity? Just some things I would have ads think about.
- [39:59]
B
No, yeah, it's a, it's a great thought too. And look at that level. It's really meant to be more developmental anyway, so that you can then sustain your varsity, you know, and prepare. Prepare those kids for varsity play. So, yeah, I mean, I like the thought of that. And I think we're seeing more and more co ops in more and more sports here. And I think that's less financial related and more participation related. But there's a financial component to it, certainly.
- [40:29]
C
Yeah, I would totally agree with that. We're coming up towards the end here. But like, one question, you mentioned something earlier about like, it's easier if you have more experience. You've been doing it a while, you've got processes in place. But there are a lot of new athletic directors every year. We know that. It seems to be increasing, right, the number of people getting out and meeting new people coming in. Sometimes even people coming in that just don't have a huge athletic sort of background and things like that. So my last question would just be if there was one piece of advice that you could give to a new athletic director when it comes to the budgeting process, what might that be?
- [41:14]
B
I think I would probably have them solicit advice from other experienced ads, you know, reach out. You know, one of the best pieces of advice I think that's given out annually at the first league meeting, at the first county meeting, is lean on your colleagues. Athletic directors are the most collegial fraternal group of Educators in the. In the business. I don't think there's any question about that. You know, it's funny because you're competing, maybe not on the same level that coaches are competing against each other, but your schools are competing yet. Some of my closest friends are ads, you know, over the years, and, you know, you see each other at meetings, you see each other at conferences, and it's just a shared experience. I would tell new ads to talk to veteran ads about, you know, tricks of the trade, best practices, whether it be budgeting, scheduling, hiring, you know, any and all, you know, parts of the job. I think they're going to get some great, sound guidance and advice from their colleagues.
- [42:26]
A
I love that point, you know, because, like, it is such a communal, fraternal, if you will, profession where you can bump into somebody, whether it's at a conference or it's, you know, it's one of your. It could even be a rival school. And you get to know that athletic director and you get that insight. I mean, I remember when I was in ad, one of the things that I really enjoyed the most, and they weren't always the most fun meetings to attend, but when we had league meetings and we did them on a. On a monthly basis, and we would, you know, almost. Almost like Festivus, if you would. You would have your airing of grievances at some point in time where you're kind of going through and be like, hey, why did you do that? Or how come what took place at this home contest? But at the same time, you develop those relationships with ads. And I remember when I first became an ad, I went to one of those meetings, got introduced to a great gentleman, spoke with them, and we just hit it off. And anytime I had questions, hey, I got an open door. My phone's always available. Let me know. And there were times where I'd go to and be like, I got a unique scenario. You've probably come across this because you've seen it before, you know, and I think that's a great piece of advice is don't feel like you're in a silo. You're. You may feel like you're going it alone because you may be the lone athletic administrator on campus, but you're not. There's people out there that are willing to share their knowledge and seek it out. I think that that's a great takeaway because there were so many times where I would just be sitting there, like, man, I'm stuck. I don't know what to do. Oh, you know what? I'm going to give them a call real quick. What are your thoughts on this? And they bounce ideas. They become your soundboard. And it's. It's such a great aspect of the athletic director community because ultimately, as you mentioned, you know, we're all competitors at heart, but we still want to see fellow ADs succeed. And I think that that's such a great takeaway.
- [44:14]
B
The willingness to help each other is second to none. It really is. And to your point, Ed Cromer, ad, retired Tenafly for a long time now. I still call him, you know, for guidance and advice. And, you know, guys that I started with, we talk to each other on the regular. And I don't think that a meeting go. Goes by where somebody says, that's a great idea. I'm stealing that. I'm going to use that. You know, it's just. I think it's a great part of this job, and it's something that all the ads know each other. You know, I could. I could almost name all of them in the state. And I know most assistant principals and supervisors of departments and even principals, you know, probably don't have that same type of rapport because their jobs are just different. Their jobs are much more internal in their own district where our jobs are, you know, go beyond the school and go to all the teams that you're playing against and competing with, and you're confirming with each other all the time. So it's a. That's one of the things I enjoy most about being in AD are those relationships with colleagues.
- [45:15]
C
That's a great point, Greg. I think the Festivus reference just want. You want everybody to understand that you weren't 10 years old in 2012. Is that why we're throwing that out there? Yeah.
- [45:27]
A
It may have served multiple purposes, but.
- [45:29]
B
Hey, I like the airing of grievances, too, because it goes back to, you know, what I said before we got on. You know, ads will complain to each other and then stay on the job for 20, 25 years. Also.
- [45:41]
C
Dennis, I'll just do me one favor. When you bring festivities to the big north conference and the airing of grievances, I will. Please invite me. No, no, I want to be there. I honestly want to be there for that one. Like, no doubt.
- [45:53]
B
I would definitely give credit from where it came from.
- [45:56]
C
I just want to be there. Listen, fly on the wall. I think that that's perfect. And I think that when for the veteran ads on the call, maybe the right mindset is also to make sure you're doing the Outreach and not waiting for the phone call from the new ad.
- [46:14]
B
Like a wellness check.
- [46:15]
C
Yeah.
- [46:15]
B
You know what I mean?
- [46:16]
C
Like, you know, there's some, there's some states, there's some conferences that have mentorship kind of programs, but it doesn't have to be formal. If Dennis Nelson reaches out to a new athletic director once every two months and just says, how you doing? Like, there's a lot to be said for just like that wellness check. And I think for veterinary these, you've been there. So that'd be a really nice mindset to have.
- [46:41]
B
No, it's a great point. You shouldn't have to be asked to help.
- [46:46]
A
Well, a lot of times, too, there's, there's going to be an element of pride. You know, we're all competitors, right. And there's going to be those ads that don't want to ask for help. And hopefully some veteran ads listening in on this are like, yeah, you know what, maybe I should just reach out before they get themselves into some type of trouble, you know? So that's, that's a great, great point to bring up. Well, gentlemen, I think that's going to do it for this edition of AD360. Dennis, cannot thank you enough. We truly appreciate it you, given your time, your insights in the world of being a public school athletic director and how that that really relates to the budgeting process. And we really, really enjoyed speaking with you today. Definitely got my mind blown with, with a few things, getting some of those insights, but truly appreciate you joining us today, Dennis.
- [47:29]
B
It was my pleasure. Thanks very much for having me. I enjoyed it.
- [47:33]
C
Thanks, man.
- [47:35]
A
Well, folks, if you like what you heard today, stay tuned for future episodes. Make sure you follow us wherever you get your podcast from, whether that's Spotify, Apple podcasts, etc, so you don't miss any new episodes. And with that said, from A.D. 360, I'm Greg Vandermade.
- [47:49]
C
Scott Rosenberg, until next time.