← ADHD for Smart Ass Women with Tracy Otsuka
ADHD for Smart Ass Women with Tracy Otsuka
EP. 316: Overthinking Much? Dr. Kathy Zhang Gets It
01:08:20
Loading summary
Transcript151 lines
- [00:06]
A
Richard Branson, Michael Phelps, Justin Timberlake, James Carville. Wait a minute. Where are the women? Greta Gerwig, Lisa Ling, Audra McDonald, Simone files. That sounds like a list of highly successful titans in a variety of industries. They all have adhd, but you don't hear hear much about that now, do you? You know what else you don't hear about are the 43% of people with ADHD who are in excellent mental health. Why aren't we talking about them and what they're doing right? I'm your host, Tracy Otsuka, and that's exactly what we do here. I'm a lawyer, not a doctor, a lifelong student, and now the author of my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women. I'm also a certified ADHD coach and the creator of youf ADHD Brain is okay. A patented system that helps ADHD women just like you get unstuck and fall in love with their brilliant brains. Here we embrace our too muchness and we focus on our strengths. My guests and I credit our ADHD for some of our greatest gifts. And to those who still think they're too much, too impulsive, too scattered, too disorganized, I say no one ever made a difference by being too little. Hello, I am your host, Tracy Outsuka. Thank you so much for joining me here for yet another episode of ADHD for Smartass Women. My purpose, as you know, is always to show you who you are and then inspire you to be it. And in the thousands of ADHD women that I've had the privilege of meeting, I have never met one, not one that wasn't truly brilliant at something. And so of course, I am just delighted to introduce you to Dr. Louis Cathy so Zhang. Dr. Zhang is a Chinese American hospice and palliative care physician who has spent her career on the front lines of life and death, comforting thousands of dying patients while holding space for their deepest secrets, biggest regrets and final wishes. As a TEDx speaker, certified coach, and hypnotist, she transforms deathbed wisdom into actionable insights, inspiring others to live with intention and authenticity while they're still young and healthy. Diagnosed with ADHD herself, Dr. Zhang uses her neurodivergent brilliance to pioneer neuroscience based methods for connecting people with their inner wisdom. She equips her clients with tools to regulate their nervous systems, dismantle unconscious blocks, and work with their unique brains instead of against them. Her mission is clear, to help others stop fearing death and start embracing it as the ultimate catalyst for an extraordinary, meaningful life. Welcome, Dr. Zhang. Did I get all of that Right?
- [03:10]
B
Oh, my God, yes. Beautifully. And I feel like you inserted some superlative adjectives in there, too. I appreciate that. Thank you for having me.
- [03:19]
A
Absolutely. So whenever anyone comes on this podcast and I go through their bio without fail, they always seem to kind of pause and say, oh, my gosh, did I do all that? Do I do all that? Are you any different?
- [03:35]
B
Yeah, no, same. I was just like, wow, that sounds pretty cool now that you're saying it that way.
- [03:41]
A
Yeah, it is. It really is. And I want to talk about all that, and I'm going to call you Kathy, if that's okay. It's just easier. But we want to make sure we give you the credit that you so well deserve. I'm all about celebrating. Right. And constantly hitting home, what we have accomplished, because so many of us, we're in the midst of it. We're doing, doing, doing, and we don't even realize how much we've accomplished. And when you don't realize how much you've accomplished and you don't celebrate, you don't think you've done anything. So I'm always trying to hit that home, but that's neither here nor there. What I would love to do first is I'd love to talk about your ADHD diagnoses so that we can connect you to our audience and they can get to know you.
- [04:25]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So I am a kind of late diagnosis bloomer, like many who are listening to your show and you yourself. So it wasn't actually until December 2021 that I replied to a friend's Instagram story. She posted something. I forget about what. Maybe it was having a hundred open tabs up on your browser or something like that. And I was like, oh, my God, that's so me. And she goes, wait, do you have adhd? And I go, no, I don't think so. And. And she. Her name is Sarah Ashman, and I love her. She is a, like, creative director. She was helping me with my brand, and she asked because a lot of the clients that she works with who are also creatives and that sort of thing, also women have undiagnosed adhd. So she sent me a carousel of common symptoms like inattentiveness, impulsivity, lack of motivation, hyper focus, and emotional dysregulation. And there were some examples on each one. And I saw all of them. Oh, my God. What? And so it wasn't until maybe nine months later that I actually got my diagnosis, and I was about 35. And so it's been a few years now. And it's just completely changed my life, just totally. And were it not for her, were it not for podcasts like yours, where other people are getting educated, and now I can ask my friends, my clients, you know, sometimes even my patients, if it seems like the right opportunity. Like, hey, have you consider that you might have this diagnosis and how it might be impacting your life?
- [06:02]
A
Yeah. You know, what's interesting is the other day I actually saw a doctor who specializes in ADHD talking about ADHD, and she said that she believes that 75% of people diagnosed with anxiety actually have underlying ADHD. So there might be a little bit of anxiety anyway, but it's exacerbated because, you know, they haven't treated the underlying adhd.
- [06:26]
B
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all. There's so many overlapping conditions and symptoms as, you know, with adhd, that it just makes a lot of sense when you think about it.
- [06:36]
A
Yeah. And actually when I'm thinking about it, I don't believe I have met anyone with ADHD who doesn't have at least some anxiety. And wouldn't that make sense? I mean, if you can't rely on your brain, if you don't really understand when it's, you know, brilliant and when it's not, how could you not have some anxiety over that?
- [06:57]
B
Yeah, it's one of those things too, where clinically, like, I have patients who be like, oh, I'm really anxious, and then I get short of breath. And then when we talk about it, it's like, no, actually you're short of breath, which makes you anxious. And so not realizing that one is potentially causing the other. Instead of blanket saying, oh, you have an anxiety disorder or you're just anxious all the time.
- [07:20]
A
Yeah. So what were you like as a child?
- [07:25]
B
The words that come to mind are sensitive and distracted. So as a kid, I was crying all the time, non stop. I still do. I'm a very. Like a life insurance commercial would just take me out. All right. Like the first 10 minutes of up the movie, just, I'm a mess.
- [07:44]
A
Oh, yes.
- [07:45]
B
Right. So. But that was my only coping mechanism. If I had some sort of intense emotion, whether I was happy or sad or frightened, I would cry. And my dad, who's just kind of this very Chinese immigrant father, would always be like, why are you crying all the time? What's wrong with you? And in a way, it was kind of weaponized against me, you know, especially as an only child, as a daughter.
- [08:11]
A
Yeah.
- [08:11]
B
And I was super distracted all the time. I was obsessed with tv, which I now know was, you know, my dopamine hit, right? Yeah. And so it got to the point where I just share this because I want to illustrate how obsessed I was. My dad would unplug the TV as an initial attempt, thinking that the threat of electrocution would, like, prevent me from not watching tv. And I was like, please. So I plugged it back in. Then he would, like, wrap a little, like, address label over the prongs. And I was like, all right, I'll just take it off and put a new one on. Then he got smart and then put his signature over the label so that I couldn't take it off. And I was like, all right. Damn. But then there were some days where he didn't wrap it very tightly, so I would just wiggle it off, plug it in, and then wiggle it back on. So he thought that.
- [09:00]
A
Or you should save some of the old ones, you know? Right.
- [09:04]
B
And then finally, he put one of those tiny little locks through the hole in one of the prongs. And I couldn't, like, I couldn't do it. But that's how obsessed I was with tv.
- [09:15]
A
I wonder, was this an Asian thing? Because we had a lock on our television, too.
- [09:19]
B
Did you?
- [09:20]
A
But we figured out how to get around it. But then my parents would come home. We'd hear the garage door open, Right. And we'd run over the television, turn it off, because there was no remote control in those days. And so they would feel the television.
- [09:32]
B
God, yes. My dad would do the same thing. He'd be like, you haven't watched TV all day. I was like, no, I swear. And he would. He's like, the TV is warm. And I was like, I don't know how that happened.
- [09:43]
A
Oh, my gosh. Okay. So, you know, so you. You cried all the time. That was kind of how you regulated your nervous system, right?
- [09:52]
B
Yes.
- [09:52]
A
Were there other things that were different about you? Like, what was school like and friendships and all of that? And you were an only child, so that's kind of lonely sometimes.
- [10:02]
B
Yeah. I mean, I always wanted a sibling, but I remember being very, very sensitive to people around me and their needs, in a sense. I remember having birthday parties where different groups of your friends would be invited. And I remember feeling very weird and not liking birthday parties because seeing the dynamics of people not getting along and just the heightened sensitivity and the awareness of that was really awkward for me. I had stomach aches all the time as a kid, which I now know are related to anxiety because I just didn't know what. How to deal with my emotions. Emotions back then, right? In terms of school, I, you know, like many of your listeners, I have a good brain. I'm a smart person. I happen to have a very good short term memory. So I would cram everything all the time. I once forgot to finish an AP English term paper and I just handed it in because I fell asleep and I just printed it out and I got the score back and it was a 92. But you could clearly tell he wrote over the 7 and made it a 9 because it was originally a 72. But he. My teacher liked me and that was the only time I'd ever done it. And I did his attendance for him and so I think he just took pity on me. But that was my schooling. But I couldn't really do that in med school. It's kind of really hard to cram medicine. And I struggled a lot at the beginning until I started learning systems and how to study, how to sit myself down and all these things. So it got better, but it was, it was a struggle.
- [11:41]
A
What about socially?
- [11:43]
B
I'm a very huge introvert, right? This kind of Persona that now I'm able to talk to people. I go to conferences and people think I'm an extrovert. It's been refined over time because I've had to learn how to do that. I'm a very at heart, kind of awkward, nerdy, dorky, introverted kid. As a kid, I would hide behind my parents. We would go out and they would just be like, I would ask where the bathroom is. My mom goes, I've never been here, sweetie. Like, why don't you ask where the bathroom is from someone who works here? And I could not do it. And so it was just one of those things where I had to learn, you know, my normal tendency is not to be this person now. And I've come a long way.
- [12:29]
A
The energy I get from you is not the typical frenetic, hyperactive energy. I feel so calm around you, and so I suspect you have more of the inattentive presentation of adhd.
- [12:44]
B
A hundred percent. Yes. Yes. I've been told that I have a very calming voice or presence, that sort of thing, but I'm definitely more of the inattentive person. I had one person who listened to my podcast previously and she was like, you have such a soothing voice. I listened to one of your episodes and I took the best nap ever.
- [13:13]
A
Before we dive back in, a quick reminder, your brain is not disordered. The problem is no one ever gave you its manual, but I can and I will. Your ADHD brain is a. Okay. Academy is my step by step patented program to help you figure it all out. Click the link in the first line of this episode's description to learn more or book a discovery call. Now let's get back to the show.
- [13:46]
B
And I was like, thank you.
- [13:48]
A
Yeah, that's not the compliment that you think you're giving me.
- [13:50]
B
Right? Right. But you're welcome.
- [13:53]
A
Yeah, but it kind of is too. Right? Exactly.
- [13:56]
B
I was like, I'll take it.
- [13:58]
A
So I am curious because so many of us with ADHD grow up feeling kind of like the outsider. But then on top of that, you were also an only child and from an immigrant family. And so you have this. I'm American, but I'm also Chinese. Can you talk a little bit about that? Was that a struggle or was it just, eh, no big deal.
- [14:24]
B
It's something I still grapple with to this day. I was telling you earlier that my legal name is Lu Yi, but my American kind of name is Kathy. And I've been Kathy for so much longer of my adult life than I have been Louis. But I couldn't change my name, one, because of the paperwork. And I was like, that's just way too much. And two, because I didn't want to kind of erase that part of my identity in a way. And so I've kept both. And I definitely felt like an outsider. And I think part of what helps me in my current job is knowing what it's like to feel like you're not part of the bigger group. Right. Like you're an outsider, like you're an other in quotation marks. And so that combined with kind of the high empathy that is typical of ADHD people. Plus, I realized when I got my diagnosis that I'm also a highly sensitive person. Kind of all makes sense in terms of what I do now with talking to people about death and dying, taking care of them and their families at the end of life, and what I do outside of the hospital, too.
- [15:41]
A
So where did you grow up?
- [15:42]
B
I grew up in Brooklyn. I was born in China, but my parents came here when I was three. And so I am Chinese and very much American.
- [15:53]
A
I'm assuming that there were a lot of other Asian students in your classes, given the fact that you're from Brooklyn. Is that true?
- [16:02]
B
When I was growing up, there were probably maybe only a handful because I grew up mostly in a Latino neighborhood, so there were maybe only five Asian kids in my class. The very first two Spanish words I Learned were calle and sientate, which are like, you know, sit down and close your mouth. Shut up. Exactly. Because all of the aides and a lot of the teachers were Latino or Latina. Like, so I grew up in a very kind of different neighborhood than seeing people who looked like me.
- [16:39]
A
Yeah, I was just reading Malcolm Gladwell's newest book, Revenge of the Tipping Point, which is actually quite good. And what he was saying in that book is that for any race, the tipping point is 30% to actually feel comfortable in any environment and feel like you belong. So I find that really interesting. And if you would have asked me. So I'm half Japanese and the other half German. I'm married to an Italian. We call our kids the Axis of Evil. But growing up, it was me and one other boy who was Asian, Andy Yee. And that was it. And if you would have asked me, I would have said, yeah, no big deal, didn't bother me. But I remember lying. My last name was Otsuka, I've kept my name. My last name was Otsuka. And I remember lying to everybody and telling them I was Hawaiian and German and my father was actually from Hawaii. But I think the reason I said that was because at least Hawaii was in the United States. You know, as different as it was, it was still in the United States. So clearly there must have been something going on. Yet, you know, if you would have asked me, I would have said, no, we're fine, I'm fine.
- [17:51]
B
Right? Yeah. And I think it was just a coping mechanism to fit in. Right. Especially. And I say this a lot because I tend to have a lot of like kind of immigrant female clients where our parents generation goal was to survive. And to survive as a human being, you want to fit in. Right. And so a lot of that kind of mentality is passed down to us where it's people pleasing and, you know, quieting your own voice, not celebrating yourself, that sort of thing. And now as this kind of first slash second generation, our purpose, our goal probably isn't really to survive. We're probably doing okay, if not fine. Our goal is very much different. But losing that mentality that came from when we were very young and every kind of learning is all unconscious. That's really difficult. And you know, like growing up in the 90s, there was a lot more external, inherent, like racism that I was like, I would get slurs every single day. You know, people would make fun of me and that hurt as a kid. And so, you know, I didn't want that. So I'd Just be like, no, call me Kathy. So it's just been a journey to kind of reclaim that part of myself in a way.
- [19:09]
A
Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, things like I remember saying I hated. Well, I really did not like Japanese food. I did not like sushi. I mean, I love all those things now, so. And the rest of my family liked him. So it was just this unconscious, I guess, desire to fit in and not be different. Because sushi is weird, right? Yeah, because we're not used to it. I mean, I remember with my daughter, we would, you know, they would have lunch, drop off, where you would bring something to your, you know, to your child. And my kids liked sushi and I would bring sushi and people would still make contact comments about, well, that's not kid food. Well, yeah, it depends on where you are in the world. I mean, macaroni and cheese. You think that crap is kids food, so.
- [19:59]
B
And I literally just got back from Japan yesterday, so I'm.
- [20:02]
A
Oh, were you in Tokyo or where were you?
- [20:06]
B
We were all over. We were in Tokyo and Takayama and Kyoto. Osaka. We went all the way down to Hiroshima.
- [20:12]
A
Like, it was where my family's from. Yeah.
- [20:14]
B
Really?
- [20:15]
A
Yeah.
- [20:16]
B
Amazing, amazing trip.
- [20:19]
A
And it was this for business or purely pleasure?
- [20:23]
B
Purely pleasure. Just for fun. Like, you know, my husband's always wanted to go to Japan and the yen happens to be very weak right now. And so it was a. It was a great time to go.
- [20:36]
A
Yeah, yeah, I know. We. My kids keep saying, well, you know, we were kids when we went, you need to take us again. So it's on the bucket list. So I am curious, Kathy, how do you do what you do? I am also very sensitive. I'm not as sensitive as you, though. Again, I remember as a child, you know, the cat would die and I would be bawling. I couldn't even watch Disney movies. You know, those. I don't know if you're younger than I am, but on Sundays at 7 o', clock, it was always, I think it was Disney movies were seven o' clock on Sunday and I couldn't watch them because there was always some part of a Disney movie that's sad, right? You know, the mother dying, the, you know, Bambi, whatever.
- [21:19]
B
Right.
- [21:19]
A
I am so sensitive about human suffering. Still can't watch movies that have won any kind of award because it's just. I can't do it. I will think about it for months after and kind of be. I won't say debilitated, but it's. It doesn't generate positive Emotion for me. And that's kind of how I gauge everything. And so I am wondering, giving, given that you're an hsp, you're so sensitive, how do you do what you do?
- [21:47]
B
I was just thinking about this because it totally doesn't make sense on paper, right? Like, and especially what you're saying, that rings true for a lot of people that I know who have adhd. And even for myself, I think at some point I just realized that I'm really good at this. And why not have someone who is so deeply empathetic to care for these patients who are suffering? And I think for me, what it is, is that I do derive so much positive emotion and meaning and even joy from being able to be in these situations and to help people with it. Because, you know, like, my brain is. And my body is well suited for it. As difficult as it is. You know, I've learned to, in some ways, compartmentalize my work at being at work and leaving it at work, and then just being very present and just being like, okay, I'm not there anymore, and kind of just be like, that's that, and I'm here now, and that's how it's going to be. And that took a lot of trial and error. And I had a lot of issues, especially during COVID I'm in New York. We were, you know, hit terribly during the first wave, like, like all of that stuff. And I had to learn, basically, trial by fire. Which is why I focus so much on emotional regulation now. Because had I not learned those skills, had I not had a trauma therapist, had I not received coaching and all these other stuff, I would not be able to do the work that I do consistently and at a high level because we talk about in hospice and palliative care, the importance of self care, which is not something that was really focused on when I was working in other areas of medic. Because of how challenging our work is, we realize that if we don't take care of ourselves, then we can't provide the best type of care for our patients who really, really need us to be at 100%.
- [23:55]
A
How did you even get into this?
- [23:58]
B
So I was working as what we call a hospitalist, someone a physician who takes care of people in the hospital who are sick enough to be admitted. And, you know, I was seeing a lot of pneumonia, stroke, infections, things like that, and I loved it. And at some point I just felt like I was kind of doing a revolving door of, you know, putting band aids on people, sending them home, and then they would come back, and they would come back and they would get sicker. And I didn't have the skills or the know how or really the time to be able to talk to people the way that I want it. Like, my favorite moments were being like, what were you like? And outside of the hospital, right, do you have nicknames? Like, tell me about your kids, all this stuff. And I barely had five minutes to sit down with people, and now I get to have 30 minutes, an hour with people. Like, eight patients, for me now is considered a very, like, heavy load, kind of. And I used to have 20, 25 patients in a day. And so I realized that this was kind of what I'd wanted from medicine all along, right? To be able to have that deeper connection with people, to talk about things that are super uncomfortable and super important, and to be able to help people improve their quality of life even though they are dying, even though they are sick. And I love it. I cannot imagine doing anything else in medicine now.
- [25:30]
A
So you're a hospice doctor, a coach, a hypnotist, and you have adhd. So I guess that probably explains all of those things. But how do you tie all these different areas into your life together?
- [25:46]
B
I never meant to become a coach or a hypnotist. Like, I remember joining someone's coaching program, and everyone at the beginning was talking about how they wanted to be a coach, and I was like, whatever. I'm just here to feel better. Then I think it's one of those things where, you know how you get really excited about something because it's changed your life and you just want to tell everyone about it. And that kind of was what coaching did for me. Like, I always like to say that therapy got me from the deep, dark hole I was in, back to kind of my normal, and coaching got me to see what was possible in my life. And I've had ADHD coaching, too, which was really helpful as well. And part of me experimenting and I love to learn, and I joined all these things was I did a coaching certification that included hypnosis. And it changed my perspective so much because we had to practice on each other. And things happened so quickly for me, and I was just like, what is this magic? Because it all works at the subconscious level. And then so I was like, I have to do it. And so now I'm a hypnotist. And. But it's really fun.
- [26:57]
A
Perfect segue here. So I'm. I've spoken to hypnotists. I've had a couple on the show. I even worked with one. I just don't get it. But I love that you're here as a medical doctor and a coach with adhd. Sell me on it. What happened? Why didn't it work for me?
- [27:17]
B
Okay, so I would probably say that it comes down to nervous system regulation. Right. I think it's kind of similar with meditation, how when people say meditation doesn't work for me, I think there's one, varying levels of hypnotizability and that sort of thing. And two, where I think a lot of people go wrong is they try to meditate when they're in a really heightened nervous system state. Right? When you're super anxious and you're super whatever and your heart rate's going crazy and you can barely breathe, meditation's not going to be very effective at that moment. And so you need to kind of bring your nervous system down to a level where you're kind of neutral and then try to meditate or do hypnosis. My teacher, Melissa Tears, likes to call hypnosis as meditation with an agenda, basically. So. And I find for me that just plainly kind of meditating is great. And it's a little harder for me, too, to just kind of stay still and be aware because there's so many thoughts that come in. And part of that is the practice of meditation. And also with hypnosis, it's guided, Right. So part of it is, number one, getting someone to calm down a little bit more with various techniques like tapping or other things. And then two, what we all have is an unconscious mind, right? So if you think about it as an ICEBERG, the top 5% above the surface of the water is our conscious minds. That's what we're doing now we're talking. That's what we engage in in therapy, which I recommend for everyone. And the bottom 95, maybe 97%, is all unconscious. So what hypnosis does is kind of just a deep relaxation that gets people to blur the line between subconscious or unconscious and the conscious mind. And so then we get to get to these deeper patterns. We get to talk to people, kind of bring up these things from childhood, from past experiences, from possibly trauma, whether that's little trauma, little T or big T trauma, and just the way that it engages the brain, the body, to be able to address that in an unconscious level, because so much of our learning is unconscious, especially when we're kids.
- [29:54]
A
Yeah, it's probably. This is a silly question. It's probably like most things, whoever you're working with is really important, right? And so you have to be connected to them in some way in order to make hypnotism work.
- [30:12]
B
Yeah.
- [30:13]
A
Is that true?
- [30:14]
B
Yeah, I definitely think so. And again, like, you know, a lot of times people would say, oh, from the outset, that maybe ADHD people wouldn't benefit as much from hypnosis because of the racing thoughts or things like that. And I found that. That, for me, it works so well because a lot of it is really asking people to tap into their own imagination. Yeah, right. And we have such creative minds, and we're all so brilliant in our own ways. And I know that a lot of people in my cohorts, my fellow students, a lot of them are neurodivergent. And it. Once we're able to get ourselves to that point, to just be like, you know what? I think it's okay for me to try this, to allow ourselves. We're more open to things, too. And so to be able to do that and then to get the amazing results from it. I've had one client who's like, one of these sessions was. I think it was 45 minutes, she said, was better than an entire year of therapy. And I was like, speak for itself.
- [31:22]
A
Yeah. Wow. Okay. So what you're saying is I should give it another shot.
- [31:27]
B
I think since you already have kind of somewhat of a meditation practice right now.
- [31:33]
A
The thing about meditation is, what I had to realize is you could do it anywhere. I could do a walking meditation. You know, I could do a dishwashing meditation. I could do a driving meditation. Well, maybe I shouldn't do a driving meditation, but I could. And so I don't think of meditation anymore as sitting there and just. I mean, bottom line is just bringing your thoughts back. Right. You know, you're just continually bringing your thoughts back. But a traditional meditation, what works for me much better than that is something like tapping where I can be moving. I think I'm really good now at the nervous system regulation part, which obviously I want to talk about, because I finally got that. Oh, my gosh, that's so important. You know, if you're in negative emotion, you can't get out of your own way. Like, your prefrontal cortex is more offline than it normally is. So this is not gonna work. So I will say that, yes, but not what you think of as traditional meditation. You know, I read all that about how, well people with adhd, you know, especially if you're, like, oppositional and, like, being able to be hypnotized, can be a problem. But I don't Think that was the problem with me. The woman that I worked with never flat out came out and said this, but she said enough things to make me believe that she was always coming back to. She didn't believe in adhd. And so I think there was this wall, and I just couldn't get past it because maybe there was a trust issue. And I suspect that that is really important with this.
- [33:09]
B
That makes a lot of sense, because, you know, I think we talk a lot about, in general, about, like, instinct and trusting ourselves and that sort of thing. And what a lot of people probably don't realize is that so much of that kind of inner knowing and stuff like that is all just unconscious. Right? Like that gut feeling, or you're just like, something's not right here, and we can't quite put a name or a word to it, but we just know that is unconscious. Knowing that's just all unconscious. And the fact that, you know, you're able to kind of put a voice to it now, being like, maybe it was something about her feeling like ADHD wasn't a thing, probably was an unconscious block back then for you to just be like, well, hypnosis doesn't work because this person doesn't believe in this condition, which, you know, like, is such a big part of my life. And so I'd just be curious to see how you do with someone who is a hypnotist and does have adhd, or at least believes in it. And then to see if that could be something that's different, just, like, as a experiment. Right.
- [34:17]
A
You know, I also wonder, because I went to her. I'm trying to remember why I wanted to try it, and I really wanted to work on. So I have very poor working memory, unlike you. And that is what actually causes anxiety for me, because I can prepare for days in advance, and then I'll get out on stage, and I'm not even sure why I'm there. And so then I'll have to start over. Like, this has literally happened to me where I had to re. Walk out, and I have to get right on that Runway. And then, you know, then I can sort of remember because I'm piggybacking A on top of B or B on top of A, you know, and so on and so forth. And so I also question what I wanted to work on. Was it even something that was workable on?
- [35:09]
B
Yes, and it is. It totally is. Because, I mean, what I loved about the way that I learned about hypnosis and all these things was that it's all just neuroscience, right? Just in terms of wiring and rewiring our brains. And you talk about this a lot just in terms of how our brains work and that it's not something that like, oh, there's something wrong with us, especially with our adhd. It's just, you know, like, this is what happens in our brains. We have problems with dopamine and all these other things. And knowing that and being educated on that and then teaching that to my clients and even my patients. I use this with patients all the time at work, and they see such a huge impact just from doing certain things like tapping, doing, you know, a brief hypnosis, which works for pain, sleep, all this other stuff that they're like, oh, yeah, this does work, and it's really effective, and it's simple. So I would consider giving it another shot.
- [36:11]
A
So what's the difference then between meditation and hypnosis? Are you tapping into that subconscious a little bit, right?
- [36:21]
B
Yeah, a little bit. So really, what I say is, with everyone that I work with, they all have the answers. My clients, my patients, we all know deep down, right? But there's just so much noise and chatter in our brains, especially if we have adhd, that we need something to just kind of turn the volume down a little bit so that we can hear ourselves, right? And I think meditation does that really well. And again, hypnosis just does. Is kind of just like a deep relaxation. We've all been hypnotized before. We don't realize it anytime that you have watched a movie or read something and it made you get lost in it. If you've watched a movie and cried or, like, scared senseless that you've become hypnotized because you've dissociated from yourself and into this movie, into these characters in a book enough where you can experience what they're experiencing. And so when everyone's like, I've never been hypnotized before. I'm just like, everyone has, right? Just to a different level. There are some people who can just. You can hypnotize them, and they'll just fall over, just like, limp and become. Fall asleep, essentially. Those are a very small subset of the population. And so when I think about being hypnotized, it's really a deep relaxation that helps people connect with their inner knowing, with themselves. And then I do some stuff afterwards to help people rewire certain things. So changing their relationship in their brains at a neural level to, let's say, you know, with you, something that, like, you get out there and you find that you're stuck, and you're like, oh, my God, what do I do? Do I have to come back out? You kind of just change that to be like, okay, you know what? Let me take a moment. I know where I am. I don't have to come back out. I can just restart from where I am.
- [38:23]
A
Hyperfocus. Wouldn't that be kind of a precursor to being hypnotized?
- [38:29]
B
I think so. I mean, I tried to look up a little bit about, you know, research studies for ADHD and hypnosis. There's not really a lot out there. But again, the fact that we are creative, the fact that our brains are so imaginative, and especially for those of us who are inattentive and just daydreaming a lot, it makes sense that that would then correlate with being able to guide someone into some, like, a visualization. Right? And so some people aren't visual, and that's okay. But to bring in those extra senses, to just be like, okay, close your eyes and. And imagine what it's like for you to taste like the food that you're gonna eat on this dream vacation of yours, or imagine what it's gonna be like for you to see, I don't know, your name on that certificate of that, like, thing that you've been working towards. And so that does help. All of it helps.
- [39:30]
A
So I think this is the perfect segue for nervous system regulation and why it's so important for the ADHD brain. Can you talk about that?
- [39:41]
B
Yeah. So. And I know you're a huge, you know, advocate of it as well. I didn't have the tools for myself back when I was younger. And when I say younger, I even mean, like, five, three years ago.
- [39:59]
A
To.
- [39:59]
B
Be able to recognize what I was feeling and to address that in the moment, right? I used to just squash it down. Like, I'll give you an example. During COVID during that first wave, we were so busy, and there were a lot of emotions because there was just so much death, so much suffering, so much not in our control. And I had to tell myself in my brain, consciously, you know, above the surface of the water. I'm a professional. I signed up for this. I literally wanted to help people who were dying. I should be good at this, right? But my body, from my neck down and everything unconscious was just like, this is ridiculous. You are not equipped to deal with this. You don't have the skills. This has never happened anywhere before. And, like, you're a mess. And so kind of that mismatch between my head and the rest of my body really was a huge problem for me, to the point where I was even suicidal. Right. Like, it was a massive problem. And it wasn't until I learned how to regulate my nervous system. My trauma therapist was super helpful. You know, I credit her with saving my life. To just explain to me, this is what happens when your nervous system is overstimulated. This is what happens when your nervous system is not. And here's how to get yourself back in that kind of window of tolerance where we're okay, where we could handle the stress of life, you know, little things here and there. And so learning that and then being able to teach it to my patients and my clients, for them to just be aware, like in the moment when you're having some sort of emotion is the time to really address it. Because if you don't, it's either going to, you're gonna shove it down, you're gonna forget about it, but your body doesn't forget. Right. And then it'll just pop up at some inopportune moment where, you know, if, if you have a partner or a spouse, it's just like you just start spewing at them. And it was something very small. But all of that builds up.
- [42:17]
A
Yeah. So what are some strategies, neuroscience backed strategies that you use to regulate your own nervous system? And how do you know, how do you know when your nervous system is.
- [42:33]
B
Whacked, for lack of a better word? So the thing that helped me a lot was kind of what I mentioned too. My therapist told me about the window of tolerance. Right. Kind of like this level where our bodies are able to handle the fluctuations of a higher or lower nervous system. And then being kind of overstimulated, where our nervous system is heightened. Right. We're having some sort of anxiety attack. You know, your heart rate's going really fast, you're having palpitations, sweating, that sort of thing where you're just really jittery. And then on the flip side of that is kind of the opposite, where you can't do anything. Your nervous system is so shut down that you can't get out of bed. You don't have the energy to really even do anything. And that is kind of an understimulated nervous system. And the techniques are different for each. Right. So if you're, if you like, like are on the bottom end and you can't really even muster the energy to get out of bed, like you need different strategies, like sensory things to be able to, you know, kind of Ground yourself and to be able to get back to a level where you can function. And on the top end, if you are really overstimulated, you things like tapping that you talked about, right? Things that, you know, activate both sides of your body to kind of. To quell that anxiety, because anxiety tends to live on one side of the brain. So knowing where we are in terms of. Is my nervous system overstimulated? Is it understimulated? And then knowing the techniques to kind of get ourselves either from a high back to normal or from a low back up to normal is really, really helpful. To then just be like, all right, where am I on this nervous system activation scale and what do I need to do to get back to my kind of normal state?
- [44:35]
A
I did not even realize. When I think of nervous system dysregulation, I'm thinking it's heightened and you're trying to bring it down. I never even considered that nervous system dysregulation when you can't even get out of bed, that it's there. That. That is also nervous system dysregulation.
- [44:54]
B
Right, so.
- [44:55]
A
Because at some point I'm assuming it was heightened and you didn't address it, right?
- [45:00]
B
Yes.
- [45:01]
A
So let's start there, where you're so dysregulated and it's so low that you can't even get out of bed. And you said sensory things like what? Like, you know, feeling your feet on the floor, feeling your. You know, you're just trying to bring yourself back in your body.
- [45:19]
B
Yes, yes, exactly. So trying, like, you know, some people will say, like, just trying to taste something, engaging your senses, like, you know, rubbing your fingers or moving your feet, like something sensory to kind of bring you back to this present moment. Because it's really hard again, for us to go just from being totally dysregulated, from a low end, back to being ourselves. Because it seems like such a huge jump. Yeah, right. And I think you mentioned it in your book maybe, where it's like, if you can't even get outside to go for a walk, right? Just like, just say, try to get out of bed or try to take one step, try to make it to the kitchen, sit there. Exactly right. And so it seems like such a huge jump. But if you can just be like, all right, what do I need to do to get me back into my body? Whether it's, you know, trying to feel the covers, the texture of something on your skin, that can be really helpful, too.
- [46:21]
A
Can I ask you, is gratitude too early? Then where you're just literally under the covers and you're just looking for any little tiny thing to be grateful for, or is that too much too soon?
- [46:32]
B
You know, it's so funny because I just recorded and put out a reel about gratitude and nervous system stuff, which basically, like, I'm a huge proponent of gratitude. I love it. I think it's really wonderful. And I think there's a. There's sometimes where we don't even realize we're using gratitude as a way to not feel our own emotions. Ah. You know, like how when people are like. Especially on the higher end of nervous system activation, where people are really frustrated, or I had someone tell me about this guy who was stalking her and all of this stuff, and then she's like, well, I'm grateful that, you know, I have a. I have a job and I have all this family. And I was like, whoa, whoa. You were just telling me about this really traumatic event and you're just gonna just say, well, okay. And I'm really grateful. I was like, that's wonderful. But let's address the fact that this person is really messing up your life in so many ways and making you feel unsafe and making your nervous system so activated that you can't even tell me the story without crying. Right. And so I say that as a caveat to being like, gratitude is amazing, and try to get yourself back in a neutral state or get yourself feeling good and then add gratitude back on top of that, because that's just going to take you to new levels. But if you're so dysregulated, it just feels for me like it's not genuine.
- [48:05]
A
Yeah. I mean, you're literally just shifting, dismissing how you're feeling and shifting to, okay, how can. I mean. But you are trying to feel better, but you're not processing the emotions. Right. You're just shifting.
- [48:20]
B
Yeah. And I think in some ways it can be really helpful because that shift can get us out of it. But I think it depends on the degree of dysfunction. Right. Sometimes if it's just a little thing and we can think about something we're grateful for, we can get ourselves out of it. Absolutely. And I'm not dismissing that aspect of it. I'm just saying if you're really far on the spectrum of either way, a lot of times that shift from gratitude alone isn't enough.
- [48:47]
A
I think I have a sense for these very simple things you can do to get back into your body. Let's say you're on the other side, though, and your nervous system Is you're on the low side of your nervous system versus the high side of your nervous system. How do you phrase that?
- [49:04]
B
I would say probably overstimulated versus under. Okay, yeah, yeah.
- [49:10]
A
Okay, so you're overstimulated in a sense. What are some of the things? I mean, the first thing I would think of is I would go work out because I'm trying to get rid of some of that nervous energy.
- [49:22]
B
And that's totally fine. Whatever works for each person. I. I don't like to be too prescriptive, because if you feel like working out for works at that moment, absolutely do it. I think tapping is huge. And, you know, I do it all the time when I'm really, really anxious. And I've, you know, had a few videos where I'm super anxious. And you can tell I. I can barely speak. And from my body you can tell that I'm in a state. And I will tap on myself and show people, hey, takes me 10 minutes because I'm at a 15 out of 10. And so I tap. And people can see the release in my body, in my own nervous system. That is just tremendous for something that's free, for something that takes, you know, just a few minutes. And something that is really has a lot of research backed behind it. Totally, right? Totally.
- [50:17]
A
Yeah. And I mean, our VA Administration, Veterans Administration, they use it for ptsd. I belong to Kaiser hmo. I think it's the largest HMO in the country. And they have a tapping training, so. Yeah, I agree. What I love about it, though, as you said, is it doesn't cost anything. And it's so immediate. I had mentioned to you that I lost my mother suddenly about a year and a half ago. She actually died because of COVID Not from COVID but because of COVID and had a massive stroke. And I. I believed in tapping. You know, I'd gone through all the, you know, the programs and everything to get certified. I really believed in tapping. But I had never had something like that happen. I mean, I'm embarrassed to admit, which is ridiculous, that I've never had. That was the most traumatic thing that's ever happened to me. And I cannot even begin to tell you how much tapping helped. I don't know how I would. And I, you know, I'm the oldest daughter, so guess what? I was the one leading the brigade every single day. And throughout the day, I would tap. That is when I discovered how effective it really is. There was nothing like tapping. I don't think any amount of talking to someone about it or I just needed to process it and get it through my body. And tapping was so effective.
- [51:45]
B
Yes. And I think what, what. One piece of advice that I would give about tapping too is to really use these tools like tapping or other things in the moment. Right?
- [51:58]
A
Yes.
- [51:58]
B
You're really, really feeling something in the moment, address it. Because, you know, they've done research that a lot of emotions, once you kind of allow them to kind of go through you 90 seconds or so though, it's, it's kind of just gone. Right. And. But what we don't realize is if we don't address it, that's when it feels like it takes over your life in a sense. And so in the moment, I always tell my clients, if you're feeling something in the moment, tap right now, go to the bathroom, you know, do something under the table on a zoom meeting. Whatever it is, do it in your brain. Right, exactly.
- [52:37]
A
If worse comes to worse.
- [52:39]
B
Yeah. And they've done studies where, you know, people who don't have manual dexterity. Even if you imagine tapping.
- [52:45]
A
Yes.
- [52:46]
B
On the pressure points.
- [52:47]
A
That's what I meant. Doing it in your brain.
- [52:50]
B
That works too. And it's really just incredible. I've had patients who. She was in a full blown panic attack and I just let her through it and she, she was blown away. She was like, I feel like I have power back over my life again.
- [53:06]
A
That's the key though, right? That you understand that you can control all of it.
- [53:13]
B
Yes.
- [53:14]
A
Instead of medication or, you know, and it might mean that you need both. But I am consistently blown away with the power of tapping. Sometimes I joke around that, I mean, I'm not an hsp, so let's take that. Right. But sometimes I feel like a cyborg because it doesn't matter what gets thrown at me. If I can tap my way through it, I'm good to go. You know, it doesn't mean it might still not bother me or upset me, but it's not affecting me. It's. I've let it go. And if I can't control it, why would I do anything but let it go?
- [53:52]
B
Yeah, exactly. I think so many of us are focused on control and it makes sense. And the moment we realize that the only thing that we can really control is us.
- [54:01]
A
Yeah.
- [54:02]
B
And just let everything else kind of just be in some ways, then it's so liberating. It is so liberating. Especially as a type A, like, you know, high achiever, to just be like, okay, yeah, you do you. Yeah, we're good here. I'm gonna take care of me.
- [54:20]
A
You know, that's the other thing too, because I think many of us with adhd, especially those of us who are more hyperactive, combined type, very driven, we seem to care, or I get this so much about all the tips and tricks and the productivity hacks and how can I achieve more. But what I finally came down on is all of this overthinking that some of us do, most of us do, right? And then on top of it, if you're so performance focused, that need, it's all about external validation, right? And so that is exactly what leads to poor self esteem, perfectionism, imposter syndrome, even though you are achieving at this level that nobody else around you really is. And so that is actually what is the problem. You are having the same problem that the people who are doing nothing and are paralyzed and are in their heads thinking, thinking, thinking, because what is that person thinking? And why, you know, why can't I do this when they can do that? It's all the same thing. And so I just believe that the best thing we can do is what you were basically saying is become more of who we are and be comfortable in that instead of worrying about what we think we should do or what.
- [55:44]
B
They think we should do a thousand percent. Like, you mentioned who I was like, as a child, so rejection, sensitive, like, just beyond, beyond. And I didn't know it was a thing thing until the past few years where I got my diagnosis and I'm like, oh, this is why I would cry all the time if someone wouldn't, you know, say hi to me back in the hallway. Which is so silly. And like you said, being a high achiever and having that identity and knowing that it has helped me succeed in so many aspects of my life and recognizing that that is only a sliver of who I am, that is not who I am 100%. And I think what I tell people a lot is having multiple identities, not just being, you know, our occupation. Because for me, when I was only a doctor and that was the biggest thing in my life, and then it crumbled around me because of COVID and all this stuff. I was at a loss because I was like, who am I?
- [56:46]
A
Yeah.
- [56:46]
B
If I'm not a good doctor. Yeah, right. And it's the same thing with any identity that we're too tied to, whether we're a parent or, you know, our occupation or, you know, you're a content creator and, you know, Instagram goes down or something like that, the more we can ground ourselves and connect ourselves to different aspects of ourself and to others. The stronger our foundation is when one of those things doesn't go as expected.
- [57:15]
A
And as you exhibit, I believe you are a much better doctor. Which leads me to my next question. Your colleagues, most of them aren't doing this. They don't know about this. Right. I mean, I love that you were 30. What were you, 35 before you were diagnosed with ADHD? A medical doctor. But you guys don't, aren't. You're not getting this training about ADHD or even all this, you know, what we're talking about here. So you're kind of this anomaly.
- [57:52]
B
Yeah. And I think, you know, I'm really glad that I have such a brain that is really into a variety of things. Right. And I want to learn, and that's kind of a hallmark of our brains. And just the diverse things that I'm into and that it's allowed me to advocate for these things that are free, that are so helpful, that people can change. Just do at any time. You can meditate yourself, you can, you know, do guided hypnosis on YouTube or, you know, you can buy someone's like, you know, hypnosis. And so these are all available, especially when healthcare accessibility is such an issue. And if these things are helping people, why not share them? And I love being able to be like, I'm a doctor and these things work. Right. Like, please use them. You know, diagnoses and pharmaceuticals. They are useful and necessary at points, and so are these other things.
- [58:55]
A
And there are no side effects.
- [58:57]
B
Right, Exactly. You know, so why not, why not use both? Why not use everything that's available to us?
- [59:04]
A
I want to know what are some of the most profound lessons or regrets that you've heard from your patients at the last stages of their life?
- [59:13]
B
Life. There's so many. What I'll boil it down to is that regrets and lessons for people who are at the end of life tend to fall into two buckets. And it's all about connection. It's about wishing that they had connected more with themselves. Things like, I wish I'd been more true to myself. I wish I hadn't let others opinions of me dictate how I led my life. Things like that. Right. Just connecting to who we are as people, who we want to be as people. And the other is connecting to others, which is things like, you know, I wish I'd kept in touch with my friends. I wish I had kind of repaired some relationships that I had let go or had soured Whether it's friendships or family relationships or romantic relationships, a lot of times when people are dying, they want to connect with people who they care about, who they love. And a lot of times it can be really late, especially if you're at the really imminent stages of life. And so that's part of what I'm trying to do now is to spread this message. You know, I just did a TED tedx talk. It'll come out in a few months. But to share these kind of lessons so that people can learn from them now, before they're diagnosed with cancer, before they're on their deathbed, before they're like, oh my God, I'm so weak, I can barely get out of bed. And I wish I'd gone on that trip when I was younger. Right? You don't have to wait until any of this stuff happens because as sobering and uncomfortable as it is, we are all going to die. None of us get out of this alive. I'm sorry. And you know, let's make the most of this while we still can.
- [61:07]
A
I love that. So ultimately, it sounds like connection. Connection, connection.
- [61:12]
B
A thousand percent. A thousand percent. That's. That's the word, connection.
- [61:17]
A
What are the ADHD traits that you feel are responsible for your success?
- [61:24]
B
Definitely creativity and problem solving. Like I always say that I'm an inherently lazy person. If there's an inefficiency, I will find it.
- [61:35]
A
But is that really lazy or is that brilliant?
- [61:39]
B
I know, I think it's brilliant, right? But it's, it's more humble to say that I'm inherently lazy. It's the immigrant way, I guess. Creativity, problem solving, my positivity. Like you meant. You mentioned your the same. Right. Like I am overwhelmingly a positive person and I thought it was just me. And now I'm reading more and realizing that it is a very common trait for us to be able to just be like, you know what, it's, it sucks. And I'm gonna figure out a way and I'm eventually going to be okay. Maybe not now, but at some point I will be okay. And that, I think really, really helped me when I was, you know, thinking some very dark thoughts because I knew that if I could get the help that I needed, especially, you know, as a medical professional where it's so looked down upon to get help that really helped me kind of get through that period of my life. And I'm better than ever, you know, because of that.
- [62:44]
A
But even when you were in that time, you could see out and you could see that I'M gonna get through this. I'm just quite not sure how right now.
- [62:52]
B
Yeah. And there were moments where I was like, I don't think I'm gonna get through this. And I had to rely on connection. I had to rely on my friends, my family, and that sort of thing. And so there were moments where I didn't think that there was a way out. Right. And so.
- [63:09]
A
So were they then the ones who assured you that, no, you're not seeing it, but it's there, there.
- [63:13]
B
Yes, exactly. Exactly. And that's why I harp on connection so much, because no one gets through life alone. We think we can, but no one does. You know.
- [63:25]
A
I love your answer. Do you have a number one ADHD workaround?
- [63:29]
B
It's probably very obvious at this point, but emotional regulation. Right. I think about this a lot because the tips, the tricks, what, whatever, the productivity, all amazing. And if we're not in a state or position to receive them and our brain is going too wild and hairy, it doesn't matter what you do, what you work around. I can literally tell clients and patients this is what you do and hand them like a silver platter. But if they're too dysregulated, nothing's going to work. Right. And so I think that, again, is one of those things where it's like, get to the deeper issue here and then add the tools, add the tips, add the tricks. Because once you do that, everything just is so much easier. There's so much less resistance.
- [64:19]
A
And so the baseline is always first. You need to get back into your body and get out of this racing brain.
- [64:28]
B
Exactly. Get to a neutral state with whatever techniques you need. And then you can meditate, then you can add hypnosis on top of that to kind of further whatever change, transformation that you're seeking.
- [64:43]
A
So, Kathy, are you working on something that you want to tell us about?
- [64:47]
B
Sure. So the TEDx talk will be out hopefully, I don't know, March ish. So whenever this is released, we'll see about that. And It'll be on YouTube. And I have a little video that's free that, you know, I can share about. The techniques that I teach, teach tapping, bilateral stimulation and kind of peripheral awareness. Those are what, you know, my teacher likes to call emotional first aid. So things that you can do in the moment to help calm your nervous system down. And I'll just, you know, demonstrate that on myself so that people have access to those tools.
- [65:28]
A
Where do they find that?
- [65:30]
B
So that will be on my Instagram. I'll put that on my link tree and then I'll send it to you for the show notes as well.
- [65:39]
A
Perfect.
- [65:40]
B
And then, you know, I also have some hypnosis that's like the price of an iced latte, at least in New York that people can do for themselves. And it's super trippy and I love it, so I hope people will too.
- [65:54]
A
That sounds fantastic. So bottom line, they're going to go to your Instagram. Is that what they're going to do? Is that the best place to find you and see what you do?
- [66:03]
B
Yeah. So Instagram. Dr. Louis Kathy Zhang D R.L U Y I K A T H Y Z H A N G and my website is louiscathy zhang.com where a lot of that will hopefully be as well once I get to it.
- [66:19]
A
And all of this will be in our show notes.
- [66:23]
B
Yes.
- [66:24]
A
Dr. Zhang, thank you so much for spending time with us here today. It was such a privilege to meet you.
- [66:30]
B
Same here. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you for being our fairy godmother of adhd because we. We needed someone like you and we still do. So thank you for that and the work you're doing.
- [66:43]
A
Thank you. So that's what I have for you for this week. If you like this episode with Dr. Zhang, please let us know by leaving a review. Our goal is to change the conversation around adhd, helping as many women as we possibly can learn how their ADHD brains work so that they too may discover their amazing strengths. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you here next week. You've been listening to the ADHD for Smartass Women podcast. I'm your host, Tracey Otsuka. Join us at adhd for smartwomen.com where you can find more information on my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women and my My patented you'd ADHD brain is a okay system to help you get unstuck and fall in love with your brilliant brain. ADHD is not the problem. The way we've been told to manage it is. If you're tired of feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or like you're not living up to your potential, I want to help. My youy ADHD brain is a okay is a step by step patented program that actually works for ADHD brains like ours. No more forcing yourself into ordinary brain systems that just don't fit. If you're ready to thrive, find the link in the first line of this episode's description. Your brain is brilliant. Let me prove it to you.