← ADHD for Smart Ass Women with Tracy Otsuka
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- [00:06]
A
Richard Branson, Michael Phelps, Justin Timberlake, James Carville. Wait a minute. Where are the women? Greta Gerwig, Lisa Ling, Audra McDonald, Simone files. That sounds like a list of highly successful titans in a variety of industries. They all have adhd, but you don't hear hear much about that, now, do you? You know what else you don't hear about are the 43% of people with ADHD who are in excellent mental health. Why aren't we talking about them and what they're doing right? I'm your host, Tracy Adsuka, and that's exactly what we do here. I'm a lawyer, not a doctor, a lifelong student, and now the author of my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women. I'm also a certified ADHD coach and the creator of youf ADHD Brain is okay. A patented system that helps ADHD women just like you get unstuck and fall in love with their brilliant brains. Here we embrace our too muchness, and we focus on our strengths. My guests and I credit our ADHD for some of our greatest gifts. And to those who still think they're too much, too impulsive, too scattered, too disorganized, I say no one ever made a difference by being too little. No sponsors, no ads, just real ADHD support. Because I know how much bad advice is out there. If you're ready to start falling in love with your ADHD brain, here's how. Your ADHD brain is not the problem. The way you've been taught to use it is ready to finally work with it and not against it. Then check out my youy ADHD Brain is a okay Academy.
- [02:07]
B
You can.
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A
You'll find the link in the first line of this episode's description. Now let's get on with the show. Hello, I am your host, Tracy Otsuka. Thank you so much for joining us here for another episode of ADHD for Smartass Women. You know, my purpose is always to show you who you are and then inspire you to be it. And in the thousands of ADHD women that I've had the privilege of meeting, I've never met a one that wasn't true. Truly brilliant at something. Not one. So, of course, I am just delighted to introduce you to Jamie Shapiro. Jamie Shapiro's journey into late life. ADHD awareness is both personal and professional. She's the founder of Silver Linings Transitions, a company dedicated to helping seniors and their families navigate major life transitions like downsizing, moving, or aging in place. Her personal connection to adhd, which runs in her family, inspired her to create the Grandma has ADHD podcast, which sheds light on undiagnosed ADHD and seniors, offering resources and strategies for them, their families and health care providers. A mom of three, Jamie, has ADHD running deep in her family. Her parents and two of her children share the diagnoses. Welcome, Jamie. Did I get all of that right?
- [03:33]
B
Oh, wow. And I have to tell you, you got it so right.
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A
We met at one of our book events, right?
- [03:39]
B
Yes. I didn't know that you remembered, but yes, it was one of the best book clubs I've ever been to in my life. Your book was amazing. I am totally fangirling, you know, really. Once I started in my ADH journey, yours was one after, you know, Dr. Ned Hallowell's. Yours was among the first.
- [03:56]
A
Yeah. You listen to our podcasts. You know how we work around here. I always want to talk about your ADHD diagnosis story first, so would you mind sharing with us how this all came about?
- [04:07]
B
Oh, with pleasure, yes. So, as the case is with most of your guests, my oldest child came to me and I want to use correct language with you. My oldest child is non binary, so I will use they them. At the time when we were seeing the psychiatrist, she was a girl, so. And not that ADHD always follows the gender normatives, but Will came to me and said, I think I have adhd. And I said, no, you don't. I said, you've been reading since you were three. And my story was that I couldn't sit still to learn to read until second grade. And Will started reading, you know, at a very young age. And I had a half brother who had ADHD and was on Ritalin. And in my mind, that was what ADHD was. And my child didn't have it until we sat down with the psychiatrist and he started answering questions. And I looked at him and I said, I'm answering more yeses for me than for them. Do I have adhd? And he looks at me, goes, and yeah, you think? And I mean, my mind was blown because I remember my ex husband saying to me, you have adhd? You know, he's an ex husband for a reason. And I thought it was just sort of like an insult, you know, Again, we all had this vision of what ADHD was and it was the hyperactive little boy who would outgrow it. And, you know, and here we are.
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A
I am curious, you were around what age when this happened?
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B
45.
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A
45. So when your child came to you, their ADHD looked very different than yours.
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B
Correct?
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A
You didn't see ADHD in them, but you also didn't see it in yourself.
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B
And interestingly, I didn't see it in my youngest child and I'm going through ADHD coaching until her therapist pointed it out a couple of weeks ago. So what I've learned is, you know, there's actually a different podcast that I was listening to the eight girls with ADHD and how different ADHD really can look and we really can miss it in so many people. So I have two of my three children now with adhd and interestingly, my middle has ocd, which those two run together. And they are quite funny when you put them in a room together because my OCD child is just driven crazy by my ADHD child. One on the real extreme.
- [06:30]
A
Yeah, exactly. And are you sure there's no ADHD underneath the ocd?
- [06:35]
B
It hasn't been diagnosed. I don't know. It hasn't. I mean, my child is in therapy and has, you know, worked with a psychiatrist for, you know, so it hasn't been diagnosed. If that's the case, you then get.
- [06:47]
A
Diagnosed and give me an idea of like, what were your symptoms? What were the light bulbs where you thought, oh my gosh, that's me. When you were sitting there with your child and they were getting diagnosed.
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B
Right. Well, I had to completely revisit what ADHD was. You know, I was no longer my hyperactive, you know, half brother who had to be on ritalin in the 80s to be in the classroom. And all of the sudden you just start going down that rabbit hole. And unfortunately, when I was diagnosed, I was literally starting my business. Silver linings, transitions and going through a divorce. But looking back. So I remember when I was raising three children and going to my ex husband and saying, I can't seem to get it together. Can you help me? Can you help me with the struggle? And I've heard you talk about your husband. Mine was like, you need to figure, you know, again. I know. And then I started thinking about my childhood and you know, I was the child that was always talking too much in class. And I remember too, like I did my science project literally the night before it was due and I fed on the adrenaline and now I'm seeing it as an adult where I. And I'm actually pulling back on it, my hyperactivity. So I'm combined type, I go from thing to thing to thing to thing, and I'm all of a sudden realizing I've got a, you know, that's my hyperactivity showing. And then another influence. Interesting thing that Happened is so I had thyroid cancer. I was diagnosed at 34. I don't know if you know anything about it, but what they do is they take out your thyroid so you become hypothyroid so they can starve your thyroid. And so most people, by the time they get in for treatment, their body absorbs the radioactive iodine therapy and they're exhausted. They're like dragging themselves in. And I drove myself to the hospital for treatment and my doctor was like. Like, I've not seen anything like this. Like your energy level, you know, I had no idea. And here. And here we are. I'm the poster child.
- [08:49]
A
So whereas your doctor sat you down and said, okay, this is what's going to happen. You know, you're going to feel really tired, exhausted. You felt none of that. You were just like Energizer Bunny.
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B
Yep. I mean, I did have those feelings of wanting to crawl out of my skin, but had nothing to do with my energy. I mean, I had other of the side effects. And by the way, I have to say, the thyroid diagnosis, the cancer was actually a blessing because thyroid cancer is considered the good cancer. And they had found a lump in my neck. And you can imagine I'm 34, I have a 1 year old and a 3 year old and the ruminations that go with a cancer, just waiting the 10 days. And then I reevaluated my life. And that is the story for how I started Silver Linings, Transitions. Because I did have an opportunity to look at my life and realize the path that I was on did not serve meaning. And I really wanted to make a difference in other people's lives.
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A
You alluded to this a little bit, but what were you like as a child? Were you super hyperactive all over the place, chatty? How did you do in school, all of that.
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B
So in school, as I shared, I could not sit still to learn to read until second grade. I remember they wanted to put me because I'm so. Just to show my age, I am turning 55, January of this year. And my birthday was in because it was in January. That was the cutoff. And so they wanted to bump me up and put me into kindergarten, I mean, in first grade. But they couldn't sit me still. My mother took me to a doctor and she said, you know, I think my child is hyperkinetic. That was the word they used to use. And the doctor said, she's not hyperkinetic. She just has a nervous mother.
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A
Always the mother's fault.
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B
And my mother is very sedentary. And slow. And my mother suffers. She's an introvert. And I am an extreme extrovert. And so I was very bright, but I didn't do well on tests. I didn't get my work done until the class before it was due because I now know I needed that dopamine or that urgency to get it done. And definitely the talks too much in class. Do you know that meme that was from the show Different Strokes? And he said, teacher, I don't care where you move me. I'm going to talk to anybody. I'm butchering it. But it was so right on point. Like, I would talk to a wall if that was my option.
- [11:17]
A
And so did that cause social problems, or were you pretty good in the social arena?
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B
I feel like I always at least had friends for the most part, and I did. I listened to another one of your podcasts, and I sort of tended to. And now I'm realizing this was more of a codependency. But I would find one good friend, and that would be my best friend. And then that might rotate. But I usually at least had a best friend for the majority of my life. And I do not have social anxiety. However, it's really funny. I don't like to answer sales calls, so even with my business, I hated when I had to be the one to pick up the phone. Although I could talk to a friend for hours. But it has to be a genuine connection. I don't like small talk. I can network really well. I can turn it on, but it is exhausting to me. And in my own podcast, I interviewed Wilma Felman, and she described herself as a squirtle. Have you heard that term before? So perfect. It's part squirrel, right? Because we jump from thing to thing to thing and then turtle. And that's so true for me. So I turn it on and then I retreat, and I need to just, like, close it down.
- [12:28]
A
I wonder, too, if for you it's the freedom issue, where you're trying to get done what you want to get done, and then you're interrupted by, you know, having to do these calls, because that's really not what you want to do. But I bet you once you get there with the people.
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B
Mm. I love the one on one, but I hate the buildup.
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A
I completely agree with you. Let's go back to what you were doing before you decided to start Silver Linings.
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B
What kind of work? I was actually working as a realtor. And it's interesting because a lot of realtors have adhd because you're able to multitask. But I had sort of become a realtor as a means to an end because my ex husband was a college professor and I did not want to go back to my corporate life. I was a department store buyer and I wanted to be home with my child. So real estate was a means to an end for me. And I did it successfully for 10 years. But like I said, I really. And this is also true of people with adhd. I wanted to make a difference in people's lives.
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A
I don't know if you know this, but I was a broker for 15 years.
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B
I didn't while my kids were growing.
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A
Up and when the market went to hell. When was that?
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B
2007, 2008.
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A
I worked for probably two dozen banks selling their distressed properties. My law degree and the fact that I was a lawyer actually mattered to them. Actually mattered to someone for the first time. And I loved that business. Because it was nine to five. I had all the freedom. I could schedule whatever, whenever. I never knew where they were going to send me. It was often dangerous. I mean, I have stories that are ridiculous of the things that I saw and the kinds of people that I worked with, but it was so fun. And surprisingly, I could really help people. Yeah, the banks would give them a certain amount of money to move out by a certain date. And it was surprising how much I could help because I would kind of negotiate between the people and the bank. And I was always for the people.
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B
Right.
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A
And so by the time I showed up, they were actually really relieved and they just wanted to move on. And so. So if they could see in me that I was on their side and I was going to do whatever I could do to make their life easier, I loved it. But then once that dried up, I was like, oh, my God, this is so boring. I think for one year out of the 15 I worked with buyers, I could not sit in a car and drive around for hours at a time. And then people wouldn't know what they wanted or I'd know, okay, this person is. They're just not going to do anything. This is just kind of their social hour. Then I was done. So I agree with you. What I saw were so many realtors with adhd, it all makes sense. But then on the other vein, there's so much about real estate that is not conducive to our brains, you know?
- [15:20]
B
Yes, there were so many times that I almost dropped the ball and I ended up getting a partner who did not have ADHD and could balance me and yes, for sure, I was trying to keep it all together. Again, did not know that I had adhd, so I had no coping skills.
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A
Okay, so before we go transition into what it is that you're doing now, why did you decide to start Silver Linings?
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B
Silver Linings, yes.
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A
What changed once you were diagnosed? I want to wrap that part up.
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B
You know what? I felt like it was getting a playbook to my life. All of a sudden, all of these things made sense for me. And, you know, I know you always ask people, you know, what is. What is their. Their tool or whatever, but it's like, I am going to forget. You know, I remember. Oh, I will definitely remember this. I. I will definitely remember this. Now I'm like, no, I won't. So I've got my watch and it makes such a difference. No, I won't. I will not remember. But one of the things that I'm trying to do with Grandma has ADHD is really reduce the stigma of adhd, and especially among seniors and the generation of boomers and the silent generation who I hate to refer to ADHD as mental illness or a disorder. I'm going to just put that out there right now because we both know it's a superpower. But having said that, it is, quote unquote, a disorder, and they are not the generation of people who go and get help the way that we will and our children will.
- [16:47]
A
In your life, what has changed with you?
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B
I think, like I said, an understanding of who I am and I am. I am. And what I say to seniors when they are, you know, discovering ADHD is, you know, you had to cobble it together without having any idea that this was happening. And here you are. So, you know, you should be patting yourself on the back because, you know, I was getting that science project done in the 11th hour. Right. You know, I did graduate college with high honors. Like, I figured it out, even though I had to start summer to get into the college I wanted to go to because my grades were not as good as they could have been. And I think, you know, part of my conversation, and I can say that to you now, too, and I don't feel so foolish or when I give a presentation and I tell people you're going to see me lose weight words. And I'm not embarrassed about that anymore. I'm just like, this is how it is. This is how my brain works, and I'm just gonna put it out there for you.
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A
Okay, so it sounds like a real reduction in shame because you now understand it's not a moral failing. It's not a character flaw. You're not stupid. Your brain just is different.
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B
Right. And when I am myself and I put it out there for you, then you get to be yourself. And I live very, very authentically and vulnerably, partly because. Because I couldn't remember the lie if I told it.
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A
That is so true. Absolutely. And I've always felt that way. I can't lie because. But I'm really good at.
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B
If you know who you are, even.
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A
If you told a little white lie because you don't want to hurt someone's feelings, you're still that person.
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B
Right.
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A
So you're never gonna really go there. And if people say that's telling a lie. Oh, well, I mean, I will tell a white lie not to hurt someone's feelings. I just think that. But I will also say what I think.
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B
Well, that's. I was gonna say that's my problem. I haven't figured out how to temper it yet. So sometimes I'm like, did I really just say that? And then, you know, as I've heard, ADHD is an explanation, not an excuse. So I can't then pull out the ADHD card and say, like, oh, I just ADHD all over you. Right.
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A
Exactly. Exactly. What made you decide to start that business? That kind of business.
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B
So I will tell you that when you go through cancer, they say that you either turn towards God or a power, or you turn away. And I definitely lean towards my spirituality and, you know, recognizing that I was here for some purpose, but I didn't know what that purpose was. Fast forward. I ended up having a third child because it was something I really wanted. And I think that's also part of our journey. Like when we have, and I think I've heard this on your podcast, we like to be busy. We like to have a lot going on. So I wasn't ready to not have more children. And so after I knew that I could get over the fear of the cancer coming back, I had my third child. So I had an almost 7 year old and a 5 year old when she was born. And I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I knew that it wasn't real estate. We moved to California from Florida, and I was going to not work until to your point, we realized how expensive it was and not working was no longer an option. And I will kind of skip over the other jobs that I had until I got to this. But I ended up discovering the national association of Senior Move Managers, which I Want to make sure your listeners know about because the work that we do is amazing. And we started. So I went to a conference that happened to be, or coincidentally, although I no longer believe in coincidences, in San Diego. And I attended the conference and it was that light bulb moment that you, you know, you like, oh, this is the work I'm meant to do. I loved seniors. I was my grandparents only grandchild. I was very close with that. And when you have faced cancer at a young age, you want to be older. And so the other thing is the name Silver Linings Transitions was divinely inspired. I was driving and it came to me and then I ended up going through a divorce shortly after. I was getting the business off of the ground. And then I started to realize that women, when they are going back into the world workforce, if they've taken time off to raise children or to care for loved ones, they face the motherhood penalty. So I wanted to build a company that would reward women for their experience and create a supportive environment. But the work that we do is basically when a senior and actually they've now changed it from senior to senior and specialty because we don't only help seniors. This is why this is relevant. But, but when a senior, we'll just go with that is going through a lifetime of belongings and they are having to make the decisions about what they're going to keep and not keep and move to a smaller space or move to be near family or move to a senior community. It can be very overwhelming. And we're talking about the neurotypical everyday senior, you know, because typically when we move, we're going up in size and so we don't have to make those decisions and we don't have the physical challenges that come with aging. So senior Move management is about helping seniors through that path and really being on their side through the journey. So that is what Silver Linings Transitions does in the San Diego area. And then what started to happen is that I realized that moves were very cyclical and that I needed to have work for my team when we didn't have moves and we started doing home organization, which led me to discovering the Institute for Challenging Disorganization. And if you don't know about that. Have you talked about that on your podcast before?
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A
I do. I do know about it. I don't. I'm sure I've talked about it before. But tell us what it is because I think it's fascinating what they do.
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B
So you can be a professional organizer through napo, but there is another Organization for people who really struggle with disorganization, and that might be due to adhd, that might be hoarding disorder, that might be, you know, aging. I decided to pursue the ADHD Specialist and I became an ADHD Level 2 Specialist. The ICD is the Institute for Challenging Disorganization. And it really takes a look at why people are disorganized. So it's more than just bringing in an organizer, but it's somebody who understands ADHD or hoarding disorder or age related issues with disorganization. And what is the story behind the clutter? And you know, one of the things that I did when I was before, I knew I had ADHD and I hired a professional organizer to come in and organize my house and it was great for the month or so, maybe not even, but I couldn't maintain that. And it's really important that somebody understands ADHD when they are organizing with you, because it's not just enough to do it for you, but we need a system that's going to work for us. When I became a level 2 specialist in ADHD with the Institute for Challenging Disorganization, I actually, my eyes opened up in the world that I was working in because I used to tell people that my mom had hoarding disorder. That was the terminology that I would use because my mom had. She had shit everywhere. You know, it was a constant battle. And my mom actually, what I have also learned is we all have different clutter tolerance levels. Some people really are comfortable with clutter and it causes anxiety for me. And I kept trying to fix my mom's problem because her clutter was always worse than my clutter. And, you know, I couldn't do it. So I was listening to a podcast and I heard someone talk about or adhd and some of the symptoms that I had never thought about, fibromyalgia and migraine headaches. And I called my mom and I said, mom, I don't think you have hoarding disorder. I think you have ADHD, which this was. She is 77 years old. My mom had been treated all of her life for anxiety and depression. She had been in therapy, she had been working with psychiatrists. No one diagnosed my mom, right? And so another epiphany was, oh my gosh, all of these cluttered senior clients, they have undiagnosed adhd. Not all of them, but a lot of them. And this is a generation of. I didn't think I had it. I mean, our generation was missed. Go backwards. When it was what was called minimal brain Dysfunction.
- [25:34]
A
Who wants that?
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B
Right? And it definitely wasn't, you know, women. And, and they may, in fact, when I speak to seniors and I ask the question, how many of you have heard of adhd? There are a lot of hands that do not go up. And so I, grandma has ADHD really came to me. It was like, oh my gosh, I need to. And it couldn't be grandpa because as you shared in the beginning, we knew my dad had adhd. You could see it in his baby carriage. You could see it in the home videos of my father constantly moving. So that was no surprise that my dad had it. But my mom could sit and read for hours. And again, she's an introvert, I'm an extrovert. And ADHD just looks so different. But we have a whole generation of people that don't know they have adhd. And I have literally had people come up to me because now I do presentations called Grandma has ADHD about the intersection of seniors with adhd. And they come up to me and they say, you spoke to my soul. Like they had no idea walking into that conversation that that was even a possibility.
- [26:44]
A
Absolutely. You know, when you were talking about Institute for Challenging Disorganization and you talked about, oh, well, you need new systems. I suspect as much as the systems are, oh, try this, this and this, it still is all around what works for that specific person that they're actually going to do. Right. So a lot of it is very custom.
- [27:06]
B
Yes, absolutely. It is getting to know someone's behavior patterns. And to your point, and I noticed this too. I kept buying books, I kept trying to figure out how to fix it, how to make it right. And really it's about us coming up with a system and making it part of our daily, you know, what it is that we do and scheduling it and just bite sized pieces because again, we get overwhelmed when we have too big of a task. And so just, you know, perfect is the enemy of done. I'm going to commit 10 minutes a day to making this happen.
- [27:41]
A
Absolutely. So I'm going to ask the million dollar question. You whose mother and father have adhd, two of your three kids have adhd, you have ADHD and you decided to go into organization. So talk a little bit about those different kinds of ADHD brains which, which I love to hear because I am exactly like you. I can't have clutter anywhere. It hurts my brain. I can't get out of, you know, I can't get into action when my brain is feeling like what I call it is the visual pollution. I can't handle it.
- [28:16]
B
Yeah, it is. It actually does cause mental distress for us and makes. It's called. You know, I think it contributes to decision fatigue. All right, but I need to come clean with you and tell you that when. When I started Silver Linings Transitions, I started it with a partner who was going to be the organized person and I was going to be the marketer, and I call it doing the tap dance. When she decided that she needed to go to work with her husband, we had not gotten a single client at that point. I actually went to the national association of Productivity. It was called something different, but professional organizers and I went into the room and I said, the funniest thing is me walking into this room. Nobody who knows me would ever think that I'd be sitting in a room full of professional organizers at a meeting for professional organizers. So having said that, I actually hire my own team to come in and organize me, and I get maintenance. So I am not organized. But I know that it makes a difference in my life. And so I'm smart enough to get help for the things that I am not good at. But I'm also. Because I understand why we hold onto clutter and what causes us to accumulate. And I'm relatable to people. I'm not one of those people that's like, I'm gonna tell you how it's done, because this is how I am. It's like, I understand how we get to this point and what a difference it makes when we can work through it.
- [29:41]
A
I love that. And it makes so much sense. It's what I always say about ADHD coaching. I'm sure there are good ADHD coaches that don't have ADHD and don't have a child with adhd. But I don't know. There's something about having been through it yourself that I think really makes a difference and affects how you coach people around their ADHD challenges. So I was really interested in having this conversation with you today because my husband and I are in the process of our selling our. Well, we haven't started yet, actually. The broker is coming today. We're in the process of selling our way too large home in the country with way too much upkeep and maintenance. And it's specifically the property. It's not the home. And it's hard because this is the only home that my kids grew up in. I mean, this is, you know, their house. But I can't imagine if something were to happen to my husband. There is no way that I could maintain this. And I am so social. I'm so extroverted. Less extroverted than I used to be, but still very extroverted. And we are like, you know, acres. What am I trying to say? The neighbors are so spread out, which, like, I just can't live here. Like, I am a city person. I want to live with neighbors literally right next door. I'm worried, though, because after 25 years of living here, I'm so used to having all this space and it's physically so beautiful, you know, versus if we go into a city, there's less trees, there's less nature. We'd probably be, you know, in an apartment, co op, whatever. Where I've come down on it honestly is just get into action. Just do it. You'll get to the other side. I have a friend who just made this move and she keeps telling me how freeing it is. But you're so right. I consider myself a relatively organized person. Actually, I'm pretty damn organized. I cannot believe the amount of crap that we have.
- [31:55]
B
Do you want some tips? Yes.
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A
That's exactly where I was going in my long winded question.
- [32:01]
B
I want to give you some tips and I absolutely want to make sure that we finish the conversation around seniors and adhd, because here's another thing that needs to be considered. So I went to the International ADHD conference back in 2024, and of the. The probably 100 sessions that were put on, there were two that addressed seniors or aging and ADHD. And here's the problem. What's going to happen when you're older? Is your ADHD going to go away?
- [32:34]
A
No. I mean, I am totally there. Like, I absolutely know even this makes me anxious.
- [32:42]
B
It's too much. But my point is, is we with adhd, we have our now and not now time. So none of us are thinking about what it's going to mean when we are seniors with ADHD and when we, you know, a lot of us aren't on meds. Now, I think you shared that you are not able to be on them. A lot of, you know, a lot of people who are on meds are going to have to get off of meds because there's going to be drug interaction and health challenges. And we in the ADHD community are not addressing the fact that not only do we have senior parents with adhd, but we will one day be those seniors with adhd. So I am really trying to shake up the ADHD community, saying we need to, like, really start thinking about what future looks like. So I wanted to make sure that I put that out there for you. And that's why me getting this platform, getting the attention that ADHD and seniors really deserves to have. There's currently one book on the subject written by Dr. Kathleen Nadella, and she has been on my podcast and shared that it was so difficult to even get that book published. So I am on a mission.
- [33:49]
A
That's a really good book, by the way.
- [33:50]
B
Yes. So back to your question. Here are a few things. This is one of the things that I would share with you if you were at my I do a presentation called do you own your stuff? Or does your stuff own you? So have you ever heard of the 8020 rule?
- [34:05]
A
Of course, Pareto principle.
- [34:06]
B
And it, and it applies to pretty much everything. So this is the example that I give the audience. Do you drink coffee or tea every morning? So the average audience usually will raise their hand and then I will ask them, do you have a favorite mug? And most of them will raise their hand. And then I will say, okay, well, you're, you know, you're my audience of one. And then I will say, will you wash that mug to use it again? And that is an example of an 8020 rule. Right. Or don't you have a favorite pair of shoes that will be your go to shoes. Even though you have 20 other pairs, you have your favorite. So that's an ex. You really don't need 80% of what you have. So that is one thing. And the other thing is that I always start by asking the audience if you were going to leave San Diego next week and you only took the things that you wanted and you left everything else behind. How many of your family members would take. Would want your things? And I say, please put your hand up really high. And then everybody looks around because nobody has raised their hand. So we are living very differently. And the likelihood is our children aren't going to want our things and they're not even going to want their things. So we can actually save those memories by photographing them or creating digital memories with those. So, you know, you don't, you don't have to have the tangible thing. Like, for instance, I was a Girl Scout and none of my kids wanted my Girl Scout sash. And sadly, I never became famous. So nobody's going to want that sash. So I took a picture of it and now I preserve the memory, but nobody needs it.
- [35:41]
A
Yeah, yeah, I absolutely agree with you. I think handing over anything to a child and telling them it's some family heirloom that's just. It's an unfair burden. It's just a thing. However, with our ADHD brains, what I have always noticed, and this is why I really struggle with photographs and all of the memories for, you know, for kid from my kids, is that because my working memory is so bad, when I see those things, it brings back that memory. And we are doing that. We're taking photos of everything, although my husband is doing a lot of it, and he is the worst photographer.
- [36:19]
B
Like I. So what I recommend that people do. And I did this myself, so I had to. You know, I don't like the term downsize. We're using the term right size more because it's really like identifying what's right for your life. And downsize has a negative connotation. So I went through the process when I was moving out of my marital home into a smaller space. It was Mother's Day. I had a captive audience because I knew my children were going to have to listen or do whatever it was that I wanted them to do. And I took my box of memories out and I did a show and tell with them because so much of it is we want them to know who we were before we were their mothers. And so what I did was I picked everything up and I'm like, this was my prom corsage. Does anybody want this dried bouquet of rose? And you know. Right. So they got to know me. I could photograph it and then I could discard it. So pick a day that they can't say no. And you do a family show and tell, which, by the way, can also be done on Zoom, you know, if you don't like. My kids are now scattered around the country.
- [37:20]
A
Yeah, Okay. I just want to get there. I know this is the right thing.
- [37:25]
B
You need to hire a member of NASM N A S M M.org they will. So. And that's the other thing, you know, because we. We have a problem with executive function and taking on big tasks.
- [37:37]
A
My problem is I hate doing this crap.
- [37:40]
B
You bring somebody in, they'll guide you through the process. And what's really nice is they will get to know you. They will pick your favorite things, and they will recreate a space that feels like home, that brings in your favorite things. Only, like, what I tell people is if you want us to recreate, say, a curio cabinet, we'll take pictures of it, we'll reset it, only we'll dust it before we put it back together so, you know, it is done for you. When I moved out of the marital home into a smaller space. I could park two cars in my two car garage the day I moved in because my team had organized my closets and organized my pantry and made my bed and hung my pictures and I could just start my life. And so imagine that for a senior or somebody who's going through a divorce or somebody who you have a career and what is the time going to take you if you take your days off to do that move and to do the packing, Bringing somebody else in and letting them do it. And people don't even know that my industry exists. And so that's another thing that I'm.
- [38:43]
A
Yeah, absolutely, you know, in a typical move. And I, I found it so fascinating, first of all, what you said about, because I'd never thought about this, that many of us have never had to.
- [38:56]
B
Downsize or right size.
- [38:58]
A
The only thing we've done is upsize. And then we'd stay. We've stayed there for 25 years and.
- [39:03]
B
We kept that clutter or stuff or whatever because we didn't have to make decisions unless it was like obvious trash. Yes.
- [39:10]
A
And some of it 25 years later is probably still in a box. I mean, about 15 years ago we made the decision we're getting rid of everything that's in the storage locker. What a waste of money. Like we're such Americans, right, With all of this excess. So we got rid of that. But I'm sure there are still boxes, maybe, maybe two that we literally brought from the other house. And we haven't opened it since we brought, brought it from the other house 25 years ago. You really need it From a just a action perspective. Is this the right thought? That, okay, this feels really hard. I mean, because this is how I do it. I, you know, my husband will come to me with stuff. What do you think about this? And I'm just like, don't even tell me, just get rid of it. I don't want to have to because the emotion is tied to it for me. I don't want to deal with any of that. Just get rid of.
- [40:02]
B
Of it.
- [40:02]
A
If we haven't pulled it out in two years, get rid of it. Is that the proper. Just whatever it takes to just get it done or am I is this the wrong way of doing it? Because then he's going to get rid of something that I actually cared about.
- [40:17]
B
Well, if you really cared about it, you would probably remember that you had it.
- [40:22]
A
Maybe not.
- [40:22]
B
Right? You know, so as I shared with you, I do bring my team in and I Just, just let them do it for me. Because, I mean, I can only make so many decisions. Like, I feel like there are so many to make. And I'm also, I guess I take the Buddhist philosophy in this. I'm really not attached to stuff. And that has really helped me. And you know, for me too, I have the perspective. I go into people's homes when they are just making those agonizing decisions about what they're going to keep and what they're going to take with them. And so I, I have stopped accumulating. I have stopped buying mementos or souvenirs from trips because I don't want to have to make that decision later. It's better to just, I'll take a picture of it and remember it and I don't need the stuff.
- [41:09]
A
And then use your money on actually getting out there and going on that trip.
- [41:12]
B
Right? You did a recent podcast when you were talking about the impulse to buy and how instead you could take the money that you want, would have spent and put it into an account. I love that I'm going to start sharing that in my presentations. That's such a great idea and something that we in the ADHD community really is. Again, when we're starting to think about.
- [41:32]
A
Our future, the big question I had, which I'm sure our audience is thinking, Tracy asked that question. So to bring someone in for your average move, I think I started to ask it, how much do you need to figure that's going to cost for if you have like, I don't know, a 2,500 square foot home?
- [41:51]
B
So it's hard to say based on the size of your home. And I'm going to tell you that it's going to vary based on where you are in the senior move industry. I think I've heard as low as $50 an hour, but that's in a very different market to, you know, up to 200, you know, if you're in like a New York or, you know, depending or, you know, I know there are move managers in the, in the Bay Area and I. So I think I can't speak to what everybody charges. But what I will tell you, and I've heard this consistently, is normally there's a little bit of a sticker shock. It is more than just bringing in a mover. And by the way, a lot of us aren't the mover. We coordinate the move, we bring in the mover, we handle all of the logistics, but we're helping you make the decisions. We're packing we're unpacking. But what I consistently hear is that was worth every penny. And really, really for seniors, if you think about it, there's a lot of physical challenges that go with packing and unpacking and there's a lot of anxiety. And I've seen people end up in the hospital because they thought they could do it themselves or they tried to and there might be a fall. And so it's also what is your health worth, your mental health, your physical health? So, you know, you're definitely talking to a biased person. I, you know, I had one, I've moved, I've had my team do my move. And by the way, it's not free because it still comes out of my business, you know, and it still comes out of my profit. But it is worth every penny, you.
- [43:21]
A
Know, for your average size home, are we talking about $10,000? Are we talking 20,000?
- [43:27]
B
Like what is, I tell people our average is generally around 5,000. I hate to, you know, use, I hate to use that. But that is, you know, that's, but that's typically seniors because the majority of who we work with are seniors going into smaller spaces. And so you're packing to go into a one bedroom or a two bedroom. So it's not going to be as much. And then we also handle all of the clear out of the home. You know, we figure out if items can be sold, you know, so it's, it's taking care of all the minutia. We have a client now that they are also going through the process of. Right. Sizing. They are now empty nesters. The home is too big. She is a friend of mine and actually has ADHD also and she is a person with ADHD who has accumulated quite a bit and is not going to be able to take everything with her. And to your point, you brought it up about storage. It pains me that one out of every 10 people has storage because that's just a deferred decision. And how many times are you paying on it and you're not using it because if you were using it, it wouldn't be in storage or, and exceptions are like, you know, ski, you know, equipment that you use seasonally, but I'm talking about the rest of it. So we also help people clear out their storage units. But she's, she's got a daunting task and that's, you know, that's probably going to end up being, but there's a lot involved, you know, I would say around 16,000. But, you know, and again, it's going to vary based on the market. So I hate to give a number and have people, but you know, a lot of us offer free consultations we do in San Diego. So, you know, bring somebody in and get a sense. And the other thing is you can also say, you know, maybe I can do these things myself, but you know, I want the breakables to be done or I want help making the decisions. And even with organizing, a lot of times when we'll go in, we have a four hour minimum and when we get someone started, a lot of times it's the momentum that they needed to keep moving. Yeah.
- [45:22]
A
And especially for our brains, it's almost like there's a body double.
- [45:28]
B
Right.
- [45:29]
A
These are decisions you have to make and there's someone there, you're right, Coaching. Coaching you through this process so you're actually moving forward. So I could see how incredibly helpful that would be. Once your people are done with this, like they've made the move, do they typically think it was harder or easier than what they thought it would be?
- [45:53]
B
So I have to tell you that when I go out in market, I carry a magic wand and I literally wave the wand and I say making moves magical. And I've actually trademarked that term or service, marked it, whatever. But I think that so many people have so much the uncertainty for anybody. Most of us don't like uncertainty. And so there's so much apprehension because they don't know they haven't gone through it. Most people have never heard of a move or senior move manager. And again, I don't like to use the term senior, although we are senior move managers because we can help anybody regardless of age. But it's relief. They are like, wow. And then again when you walk into your place and we call it the big reveal and you get to look at this new place with fresh eyes. And you know, we have women on our team who have, you know, design experience. And there's also a term many hands on make light work. So we have people that are really good at different things. Just like no one on my team likes to speak. And I love to go out into the community and talk about the work that we do. But don't put me on a job where I'm going to have to organize. That's not going to be good. But I'm really good at taking stuff out of boxes and I'm good at decorating. So we all have our skill set. But imagine bringing in a bunch of. And we do have one guy on our team. I'm going to give a shout out because we, we were all women but Joe is our supply manager and he will come in and hang some of the things that we can't do. He actually won employee of the year this past year for our company. We do have one guy but imagine a group of women who are coming in and putting your home back together but getting to know you in the process and what your likes are and what your habits are. I tell people when I moved from California to Florida, we were professionally moved. I could not find and by the way, at the time I had a 3 year old, an 8 year old and a 10 year old. My ex husband had started his job and I was alone in a city where I had no friends and no family and had to unpack the house. They packed my garbage. I couldn't find my Wii remotes, I couldn't find my coffee pot. So what I tell people is not only will you find your coffee pot the day you move in, but we will create a coffee station where we have put all of your mugs together, all of your teas and coffees, you know, so that it makes sense. It is organized and put away. So it's like hiring someone to unpack and organize simultaneously. Oh, and decorate. Doesn't that sound wonderful? Can you see where I would bring a wand?
- [48:25]
A
I mean honestly, like if, if money was unlimited, I can't imagine that you wouldn't choose that.
- [48:34]
B
Right?
- [48:35]
A
And even if money is tight, just the reduction in anxiety I'm thinking would allow you to work better, work harder to pay for that difference, just to not have to deal with it. Because that's part of it too, right? With the ADHD brain, we're probably saying, well, why can't I do this? I should be able to do this. Well, no, you kind of suck at that. So why don't you hand that off and then you will be freed up emotionally to do what it is that you're brilliant. That and that whatever you had to pay for that, it'll even out. Before we dive back in, a quick reminder, your brain is not disordered. The problem is no one ever gave you its manual. But I can and I will. Your ADHD brain is a OK Academy is my step by step patented program to help you figure it all out. Click the link in the first line of this episode's description to learn more or book a discovery call. Now let's get back to the show.
- [49:47]
B
There are realtors who will cover the expense as well. In fact, I kept my real estate license and When I make a real estate referral, they will cover my company services.
- [49:58]
A
So that is amazing. I wish I would have thought of that because it's so smart, because it actually gets meet people right from a marketing standpoint to actually move forward. Okay, so one final question from me, I would love to know. Are there lessons you've learned from working with your seniors that you've now applied to your own life and your own family, especially since you're the mom of three and. And someone connected to adhd?
- [50:29]
B
Sure. So I would say I have the benefit of hindsight. And as I shared with you, I make decisions about what I'm going to purchase with that end in sight. And am I really going to want this? Is this going to matter to me in five years? So I've definitely stopped accumulating as a result of that. And I will also say that it is amazing to me to see the choices that people have made and how it brings them to the end of life, really. And we don't. And that's another thing. We don't talk about it in our society. It's like if we don't talk about it, it isn't going to happen. And that's so not true. But I have had some of my favorite clients be women who never had children, who never got married and had this amazing life with this amazing infectious energy, and you wanted to be around them. And then I have seen women who were estranged from their children and they were sad sacks. And I would say, for me, it's really how important attitude is about the aging process, about our lives. And so it's such a blessing for me. And again, tying back to having had cancer 20 years ago. And that is why I named my company Silver Linings. Transitions is if we are lucky, we're going to live a long time. And we have a responsibility to be an example for our children and show them what courageous aging looks like. And we have a responsibility to find the joy or at least find the hope when times are tough.
- [52:02]
A
That is such a beautiful story. And I feel this way, too. You're looking at, okay, how much of life is left and what do I want to spend it doing right? And what do I want around me while I'm doing it?
- [52:18]
B
And.
- [52:18]
A
And it really is not all that clutter crap that society has taught us that, oh, we need this because we have this urge or this impulsivity, so we're just going to go buy it and then we're stuck dealing with it. So I am so looking forward to the Other side. Which to me, once I get through all this, feels so freeing because then I will only have those things around me that absolutely bring me joy. There's no anxiety. There's no. So I've got this giant, giant coffee.
- [52:49]
B
Table in our great room.
- [52:50]
A
And it used to be you would wheel in auto parts. So I don't know, it probably. We had to have three guys move it. And I love it because it's so old and antiquey and, you know, but also really natural and rugged and. But every time I look at that thing, Jamie, as much as I love it, I think about, oh, my God, we're going to have to move this.
- [53:11]
B
That.
- [53:13]
A
But I didn't know how heavy it was when, you know, when I bought it in the antique store and then they brought it in here. So it's silly things like that where I feel like today I have so much more wisdom around what I need, what I need, you know, to be happy, what I should buy, what I should not buy. So I'm really looking forward to the other side. But oh, my gosh, it's so stressful, you know, thinking about it.
- [53:37]
B
It's not about the stuff. It is not about the stuff. Stuff.
- [53:40]
A
No. And. And I also love that as I'm sitting here listening to you speak, this is all just about decisions. So no wonder, you know, it's. It's decisions, and we're not super excited about it.
- [53:53]
B
Right.
- [53:53]
A
So do you have a way. Talking to you is generating positive emotion for me because it's allowing me to connect to the future, but do you have any other suggestions around how to generate positive emotion for.
- [54:11]
B
Right, Sizing. Right, sizing.
- [54:12]
A
Right, sizing. I love that.
- [54:14]
B
I love that you mentioned the word joy. Because really, you know, and when I give a presentation, I was at one point a size 2 about six or seven years ago, and I am no longer a size 2. And I will hold up these size 2 jeans and I will ask, you know, the audience, how do you think seeing these jeans makes me feel? Right. Yeah. So. So it doesn't make me feel good anymore. And sometimes we hold onto something because of who we were. And I think it's really important to embrace who we want to be, what is the life that we want to have for ourselves. And it always helped me. And again, this will help someone with adhd. Like, for instance, there were just all of these fires in LA and people lost their homes and gonna have to replace everything. So when I think of donating items and putting them into the universe and somebody benefiting from this thing that helps me to let go of something. And another really good tip that I give my clients is called the dining room table test. So you clear off the dining room and you start to make the decisions about what you want. And it's a lot easier to decide what you want than what you don't want. And then you let someone else come and deal with what you don't want.
- [55:21]
A
They're all great, but the who we were versus who we want want to be. That is such a great way to end. But before you go. Yeah, give me your number one workaround.
- [55:35]
B
I think of future Jamie. And so I used to, for instance, I would make an appointment to go to a potluck and then I would forget what I signed up for, and then I would spend so much time trying to find what it was that I signed up for. So now when I sign up, even though I don't want to stop and put it into my thing, I will now put notes into my calendar or if I know I have a presentation the next day, I will put everything in my car and have it ready for future Jamie.
- [56:00]
A
I love that.
- [56:01]
B
Future Jamie loves it too.
- [56:04]
A
I also love, and I've done this a few times, but not really consistently. You're absolutely right. You have a meeting, like, even if it's a zoom meeting, putting the links to the emails, whatever this is going to pertain to, so everything's there and you don't have to go searching for it because you know right then and there, you don't have to put it back together. That is brilliant. I love it. Jamie, thank you so much for spending time with us here today. Are you working on something that you want to tell us about? Where can people find you? Give us all the stuff.
- [56:34]
B
Thank you. So if you are in the San Diego area and you want move management or home organization services, you can find us at Silverlinings with an S Transitions with an s dot com. And if you are looking at really helping me with this movement of seniors with ADHD, you can find me at grandma has adhd.com and I am looking to also build a Facebook community. I have a podcast. I really want to create what you have for us smartass women. For those of us who have seniors in our lives, even parents that maybe don't want to admit that they have ADHD or don't want to look at it, we're having conversations with adult children about how do we bring this up. And then also for a lot of people, like my mom, I call her the original grandma, the years that she has known she has ADHD has been the best year for both of us because I have a new understanding of my mother when I used to get frustrated. Now I have a sympathy for her and an empathy for her. It explains so much. I just hope that people will find this community that we are building from the ground up because we really do have to have things in place for when every single one of us who has ADHD is going to be a senior with adhd.
- [57:56]
A
Absolutely. Okay, give the website one more time.
- [57:58]
B
So it's silverlinings with an S, transitions with an s.com or grandma has adhd.com.
- [58:06]
A
Jamie, again, thank you so much.
- [58:09]
B
Thank you. And thank you for everything that you have done to really make my life. I loved listening to your book. I remember where I was when I heard certain stories and thank you for what you are doing. I think you are definitely helping to destigmatize adhd.
- [58:24]
A
Wonderful.
- [58:25]
B
Thank you.
- [58:26]
A
So that's what I have for you for this week. If you like this episode with Jamie, please let us know by leaving a review. Our goal is to change the conversation around adhd, helping as many women as we possibly can learn how their ADHD brains work work so that they too may discover their amazing strengths. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you here next week. You've been listening to the ADHD for Smartass Women podcast. I'm your host, Tracy Outsuka. Join us at adhd for smart women.com where you can find more information on my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women and my patented you'd. ADHD Brain is a okay system to help you get unstuck and fall in love with your brilliant brain. ADHD is not the problem. The way we've been told to manage it is. If you're tired of feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or like you're not living up to your potential, I want to help my you ADHD Brain is a OK is a step by step patented program that actually works for ADHD brains like ours. No more forcing yourself into ordinary brain systems that just don't fit. If you're ready to thrive, find the link in the first line of this episode's description. Your brain is brilliant. Let me prove it to you.