EP. 321: Unpacking Procrastination, Clutter, and Perfectionism with Dr. Christine Li

Summary

Podcast Summary: EP. 321 – Unpacking Procrastination, Clutter, and Perfectionism with Dr. Christine Li

Podcast: ADHD for Smart Ass Women with Tracy Otsuka
Host: Tracy Otsuka
Guest: Dr. Christine Li (The Procrastination Coach)
Release Date: February 26, 2025

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Overview & Main Theme

In this energizing and relatable episode, host Tracy Otsuka welcomes her long-time friend Dr. Christine Li—clinical psychologist, productivity & procrastination specialist, and creator of the “Re-Energize Your Home” challenge—on a mission to break the stigma around ADHD, especially for women. Together, they dive deep into procrastination, clutter, and perfectionism, sharing real-life stories, mindsets, and actionable strategies to create lasting change and release “visual pollution” from our lives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. Christine Li’s ADHD Connection and Story

• Not formally diagnosed but shares classic ADHD struggles: difficulty prioritizing, time blindness, disorganization, emotional dysregulation, optimism, and a strong creative drive.
• Became the “Procrastination Coach” to help herself and others untangle habits that made life harder—without realizing, at first, that what she struggled with was procrastination.
  • Quote: “I remember the really old backstory was 9th grade Latin class, learning that the word Cras... meant tomorrow and that there was a word ‘procrastination’ that described who I was. That was a very light bulb-y kind of moment.” (08:00, Christine Li)
• Survived school through “painful” last-minute scrambles, frequent burnout, and self-imposed suffering, performing well but at a high emotional cost.
  • Quote: “I was doing things after the last minute... until all the other people were sleeping and I was alone, already frazzled. Finally it was the deadline—or the deadline that had already passed—that would cause me to launch into focus.” (09:51, Christine Li)

2. Understanding Procrastination and Perfectionism

• Behaviors (like procrastination) often aren’t recognized as such by those experiencing them.
• Procrastination is frequently rooted in self-doubt and perfectionism: “When we have self-doubt, I think everything becomes a little more confusing, a little more daunting, and a little more time consuming. ... Trust yourself and you’ll be that much more centered, focused and know where to head.” (14:06, Christine Li)

3. Humor, Optimism & Shared ADHD Experiences

• Tracy and Christine share funny, relatable stories about their ADHD brains—like getting lost in hotels and relying on their highly organized husbands as “executive functions.”
  • Quote: “We got in and we just both sat there because we expected someone else to push the button of where we were supposed to be going.” (12:11, Tracy Otsuka)
• Value of openness and optimism—embracing novel solutions (“We highlight that part of each other when we’re together”) (13:07, Christine Li).

4. The Clutter Conundrum: Emotional & Practical Dimensions

• Clutter is the “perfect adversary” for ADHD brains: represents constant distraction and can cause shame, overwhelm, and functional family stress.
  • “Clutter is kind of the perfect adversary for the woman with ADHD... it distracts you from the thing you actually want to get done. And yet... if we can focus properly, then the world is ours.” (20:53, Dr. Christine Li)
• Why do we hold onto things?
  • Attachment to memory (“love and fear in one item”), indecision, shame, guilt, resistance to letting go—sometimes to a “dysfunctional” degree.
  • Different cultures treat memories and sentiment objects very differently (e.g., no high school yearbooks in France, more emphasis on being present).
  • “There are tricky moments. But over time, for me, it’s like the less the better because the present moment is so rich and so valuable. ... Let’s just make more loving moments.” (33:34, Dr. Christine Li)
• Another source of recurring clutter: Inherited items or other people’s things, which can weigh down progress and identity.

5. The Need for Mindset Shifts

• No such thing as good clutter. Clutter is inherently draining; removing it is energizing.
  • “Clutter emits energy and we project negative energy onto the clutter. And we just don’t want that in our space.” (39:33, Dr. Christine Li)
• Move decluttering up the to-do list: Don’t wait until you want to; act in small steps, in community, and celebrate all wins.
  • “We want to move the decluttering up to the very top of our to-do list because it will never rise to the top naturally.” (36:46, Dr. Christine Li)

6. Practical, Real-Life Strategies for Procrastination and Clutter

• Mindset shifts for overcoming procrastination and clutter:
  • Change avoidance into action.
  • Focus on small steps (one drawer—not the whole house!).
  • Do it in community (with a buddy, group, or coach).
  • Prioritize decluttering early in the day, not last.
  • Drop perfectionism and celebrate all progress.
  • Recognize clutter as an energy drain and a distraction.
  • Frame decluttering as a source of “dopamine”—quick satisfaction.
  • Ask: “Is this useful for me now?” instead of “Will I need this someday?”
  • Quote: “Small steps are the tools—you’re not thinking the entire room ... just that drawer, just that one corner.” (43:30, Dr. Christine Li)
• Touch 1–3 Items: The Easiest First Step
  • “Touch one to three items. That is the difference between thinking about decluttering and actually decluttering.” (48:59, Dr. Christine Li)
• Make decluttering a simple, repeatable routine—Dr. Li’s “kitchen tornado” each night, for example, brings rapid satisfaction.
  • “It takes like 5.7 minutes... No one—I'm not going to get written up in the papers about this, but it makes me happy every single day.” (51:07, Dr. Christine Li)
• Track tasks with simple tools like Trello to maintain momentum.

7. Success Stories: Transforming Energy and Life

• Community decluttering (group challenges) brings joy, motivation, and accountability; celebrating “before and after” photos together builds resilience and pride.
• Letting go reduces perfectionism, increases available bandwidth for higher priorities, and is metaphorically linked to abundance.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Procrastination’s Origin Story
  “I didn’t know what I was doing was called procrastination... I thought my brain worked differently, but I didn’t see that as something we could tinker with.” (08:00–09:16, Dr. Christine Li)

• On Emotional Cost of Procrastination “Nobody knew what I was doing to myself ... literally falling ill because of things like burnout when I was very young.” (09:51, Dr. Christine Li)

• On Clutter as “Visual Pollution”
  “Why would I want to have visual pollution in my space?” (26:13, Tracy Otsuka, relayed by Dr. Christine Li)

• On Mindset and Trust “Trust yourself and you’ll be that much more centered, focused and know where to head. ... Use that recipe for small things and big things.” (14:06, Dr. Christine Li)

• On Practical Steps
  “Decluttering itself as a behavior is very simple: pick something up and put it in the garbage. But the difficult part is understanding our emotional attachment.” (26:13, Dr. Christine Li)

• On Dopamine from Decluttering
  “Decluttering gives you a quick dose of, ‘Wow, I did that!’ and it was way easier than I thought it was going to be.” (45:59, Dr. Christine Li)

• The Power of Community
  “To get people together was actually part of the answer. When we band together and have our energy in the same space... generally, we all do better.” (23:49, Dr. Christine Li)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:37 - Dr. Li’s self-intro & ADHD “symptoms”
• 08:00 - Discovering procrastination as a concept
• 09:51 - High achievement, high cost: academic suffering
• 12:11 - Humorous stories about ADHD brains in daily life
• 20:53 - Clutter as the “perfect adversary,” why it’s overwhelming
• 24:40 - Emotional/psychological attachments to clutter
• 33:34 - Cultural contrasts and letting go of the past
• 35:19 - Inheriting others’ clutter and the risk of losing oneself
• 36:46 - “No such thing as good clutter”, prioritizing decluttering
• 43:13 - Mindset shifts for overcoming procrastination/clutter
• 48:59 - “Touch one to three items”—the starting ritual
• 52:42 - Tools (e.g., Trello) for organization
• 55:22 - Dr. Li’s “Re-Energize Your Home” challenge
• 57:43 - Final encouragement and celebration

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Actionable Takeaways

• Start Immediately: Don’t wait for the perfect time. Touch just 1–3 items in your clutter zone and move them (out, to their place, garbage, etc.).
• Small Steps Win: Stop aiming for total perfection; celebrate incremental progress.
• Community Counts: Join others—whether a friend on the phone, a group, or an online challenge—and gain support and accountability.
• Reframe Clutter: View clutter as an energy drain, not just a mess.
• Use Simple Tools like Trello to track small tasks and notice progress.
• Repeat as Routine: Build “declutter” moments into daily life (e.g., the “kitchen tornado”).

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Further Resources

• Dr. Christine Li’s Free Challenge:
  procrastinationcoach.com/tracy
• Tracy Otsuka’s Book & Programs:
  ADHD for Smart Ass Women, Your ADHD Brain is A-OK Academy

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Transcript

[A]

Richard Branson, Michael Phelps, Justin Timberlake, James Carville. Wait a minute. Where are the women? Greta Gerwig, Lisa Ling, Audra McDonald, Simone files. That sounds like a list of highly successful titans in a variety of industries. They all have adhd, but you don't hear hear much about that now, do you? You know what else you don't hear about are the 43% of people with ADHD who are in excellent mental health. Why aren't we talking about them and what they're doing right? I'm your host, Tracy Adsuka, and that's exactly what we do here. I'm a lawyer, not a doctor, a lifelong student, and now the author of my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women. I'm also a certified ADHD coach and the creator of youf ADHD Brain is okay. A patented system that helps ADHD women just like you get unstuck and fall in love with their brilliant brains. Here we embrace our too muchness and we focus on our strengths. My guests and I credit our ADHD for some of our greatest gifts. And to those who still think they're too much, too impulsive, too scattered, too disorganized, I say no one ever made a difference by being too little. Before we dive in, I just want to remind you this podcast is sponsor free and it's been this way for five years. I do it because I love it. So if you're interested in supporting my work and you'd like to learn how to fall in love with your ADHD brain, you can find the link to my. Your ADHD brain is AOK Academy, my patented program. In the first line of this episode's description. Look, your brain is not disordered. The problem is, no one gave you its manual. But I can and I will. Now, let's get on with the show. Hello, I am your host, Tracy Otsuka. Thank you so much for joining me here for yet another episode of ADHD for Smartass Women. You know that my purpose is to show you who you are and inspire you to be it. In the thousands of ADHD women that I've had the privilege of meeting, I've never met a one that wasn't truly brilliant at something. Not one. So, of course, I am just delighted to introduce you to one of my favorite people on this earth, my good friend, Dr. Christine Lee. Dr. Lee, known as the Procrastination Coach, is a clinical psychologist, Princeton and Columbia graduate, and leading expert on overcoming procrastination. For over 25 years, she's helped women, especially those of us with ADHD break free from clutter, indecision and perfectionism to reclaim their time and energy. She has worked extensively with university students and led workshops at Columbia, Fordham and New York Presbyterian Medical School. In 2009, she launched the Procrastination Coach website featured in O the Oprah Magazine. She's also the author of Five Minute Self Discipline Exercises. Stay motivated, cultivate good habits, and achieve your goals. Welcome Christine. Did I get all that right?

[B]

Oh wow. You put together a really lovely introduction. Thank you so much Tracy. I love you so much and I'm so happy to be back on this beautiful podcast of yours and hi to everyone who's listening.

[A]

Well, thank you. So although Christine has not been formally diagnosed with adhd and why do I know so many psychologists with adhd, there is no question that she's one of us. And let's just say when you hear how she ended up specializing in procrastination, you'll have no doubt that she's one of us either. So do you mind sharing the story of how you became the Procrastination Coach?

[B]

Thank you so much Tracy for being on this journey with me. Tracy and I really just have shared so much personally and overlapping with our professional interests and Tracy has really given me more of a way of looking at my own life and how I tend to deal with stressors or difficulties or roadblocks. And I think we've helped each other over the years. And I would say my own route to understanding how I tic and how I could best make use of my own brain and body is kind of a long story, but kind of not. It is simply that I have not been naturally someone who knows how to prioritize things easily or quickly or intuitively. I am not a naturally organized human being. I seem to have things like time blindness and lots of expectations about what I can do in a certain amount of time that sometimes are outrageous, out of line with the actuality of what I can accomplish and just understanding these things in the context of the fact that I'm also just a regular person coming to this planet with different gifts and different weaknesses, just having this. With the additional benefit of having formal training as a clinical psychologist. This has all allowed me to open up my understanding of who I am. And that is someone who has lots of talents and lots of skills, including cognitive ones, including ones involving thinking and creativity and envisioning the future, but also someone who has to take a few extra mindful steps to make sure I don't run myself off the rails when it comes to expectations of myself when it comes to how I talk about myself, when it comes to promising things in my schedule or to other people. And probably every one of you listening may relate to a piece of what I've just said. These are all very relatable human condition types of stories. But we can take any one of these factors and turn them into a real personal liability where we are taking ourselves down, where we are not allowing ourselves to believe in ourselves, where we are afraid or too overwhelmed to take regular action, let alone high level, high performance type of actions. And I've just made it my business to be online and to let everyone know that there's a path forward for everyone. Just as Tracy has done with this beautiful podcast and her equally amazing book, that we are so endowed with superpowers and super gifts that we should not waste another single moment dragging ourselves down and holding ourselves back and thinking that we are any less than anyone else.

[A]

Procrastination Codely I'm assuming there was interest in procrastination because it was something you really struggled with. Is that true?

[B]

I would say not necessarily. I did not know that what I was doing was something that could be classified as something like procrastination. I actually remember the really old backstory was 9th grade Latin class learning that the word crass in Latin meant tomorrow and that there was a word procrastination that described who I was. So I remember that was a very light bulb y kind of moment. And then the other light bulby moment was when I volunteered to run a procrastination workshop when I was a full blown professional already. And I did this by accident because I didn't really know what was behind the behavior of procrastination. So I then researched and learned and that was really the opening up of all the doors after that. But it wasn't some sort of understanding that I brought to the scene about what was going on. It was actually a pure lack of understanding of what was going on with me.

[A]

So you were procrastinating, but you didn't even realize that that was a thing? You thought everybody's brain worked the exact same way.

[B]

I thought my brain worked differently than others. But I didn't see that as something that we could tinker with. And I saw that as just, well, this is what we accept about people. People are different. This is how I'm different. But I didn't see that as something that was changeable. And and I didn't necessarily see it as a liability either. I just saw that as difference.

[A]

Clearly you did well, in school, just based on, you know, your credentials, frankly, were you doing everything last minute? Was that just kind of the style of how you worked?

[B]

I would say oftentimes I was doing things after the last minute. So I was someone who had such extreme disorganization and I think emotional dysregulation as well, that I could not get myself situated to focus until it was all the other people were sleeping and I was alone, and I was already frazzled because I had worked myself into such a disordered state that finally it was the deadline or the deadline that had already passed that would cause me to launch into focus. So it was very painful. And so when you say, was I a good student or that I was a good student, I ended up performing in a satisfactory or sometimes beyond satisfactory kind of way. But it was with a lot of suffering and with a lot of behind the scenes. Nobody knew what I was doing to myself, where I was wrecking my nervous system, whereas oftentimes, literally falling ill because of things like burnout when I was very young. So this was before we talk about people burning out. I was doing that to myself inadvertently.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Nobody wants to be hurting themselves, and I certainly didn't. But it was such a habit that it was almost predictable. And it was part of how I went through school, and it was how I survived things. But it was really quite a terrible road to take. And I'm so glad I'm not on that road anymore. And I'm so glad I can help also younger people to really take a look at what can we remove from our habitual process of getting things done or struggling to get things done. So that is just much lighter and much simpler, and we're working in line with our brains and bodies instead of against them.

[A]

Yeah. Christine and I have traveled a lot together for various conference and seminars and room together. And we both have husbands who are very organized, and so they often act as our executive functions. Would you admit that, Christine?

[B]

I would say that is true, yes.

[A]

I mean, it's hilarious. So we will find ourselves where we've left our hotel room and neither one of us brought keys. No idea what the schedule is, where we're supposed to be, when. But I think the funniest one was when we both walked into the elevator. We got in and we just both sat there because we expected someone else to push the button of where we were supposed to be going. You know, we do things like our brain's just different, where we'll see this long line at the elevator and, you know, we're thinking, well, wait a minute, we don't want to stand in that line. Heaven forbid. All those sheep in that line. And so we'll figure out another way that, oh, well, if we walk to this other tower, we take that elevator and then we walk across the bridge, you know, because the two towers are linked together, we don't have to stand in that line and we can actually get there faster. So I just have found it so amusing to be with someone who I'm like, oh, my God. Our brains work exactly the same for the most part.

[B]

I think we highlight that part of each other when we're together. I would add that we're both actually very hopeful people, that we are people who understand that things will work out. And even if we're not exactly at the top of our game inside the elevator, or we don't exactly know the entire conference plan days ahead of time, that we're really going to find what we need to when we need to. And we oftentimes depend on our husbands to really fill in the blanks when we, when we can.

[A]

And I love that about you, this sense of optimism where no matter where you go, no matter what you're embroiling yourself in, you just have this sense that I'm going to get from this experience, what I need to get from this experience, and you don't worry about anything else. And you have that quality more than I think anybody that I can think of.

[B]

Well, I love that and thank you. And I think that is something that I come to, to this planet with, that I've really just been an eyes open kind of person. And I'm always looking for what is missing and what can be added and who is lacking something where I can help them to do better. I think you are just like me in that way. And I like to see opportunities. Opportunities are exciting because things that are attractive to the ADHD brain, novelty and stimulation. And so why wouldn't my eyes be wide open otherwise? I get really bored. And I do not like the state of boredom. That may be something that our listeners may also resonate with. And I think the benefit of aging and having professional training and understanding what is going on when I have the impulse to procrastinate is that I can find so much more enjoyment in working and in exploration and in tackling things that feel really hard or difficult or daunting. I know that things are basically going to work out and I'm basically going to come out ahead because I've decided I'm not going to hold back. I'm not going to procrastinate. I'm not going to burn out just because something is intellectually difficult. I trust that everything is going to work out and that trust really is that missing piece. Oftentimes when we have self doubt, I think everything becomes a little more confusing, a little more daunting and a little more time consuming. And if you can just shave off that piece because you trust yourself at a higher level, I would say use that recipe. Use that recipe whenever you can for small things and big things with your children, with your boss, with your animals. It's like, you know, trust yourself and you'll be that much more centered, focused and know where to head. And that's always a gift. Even in elevators with your good friend who also doesn't know what's going on. You gotta trust yourself, right? Nothing terrible is gonna happen because we, you know, we don't know where we're going. We're gonna find out, we're gonna find the road.

[A]

Before we dive back in. A quick reminder, your brain is not disordered. The problem is no one ever gave you its manual. But I can and I will. Your ADHD brain is a ok. Academy is my step by step patented program to help you figure it all out. Click the link in the first line of this episode's description to learn more or book a discovery call. Now let's get back to the show. Absolutely. I think you are the most open minded psychologist that I know for other options and remedies and strategies and you are not close to anything and I love that about you. You're also such a lifelong learner, sometimes to a fault. Christine.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you.

[A]

Like things that come into your universe, like she's always sending me links to check this out and check that out. And I'm thinking, oh my God, this hurts my brain. It's one thing I need to think about. But that is literally your life. Like you just all the opportunities, like they're all open.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And whenever I send something to Tracy, I'm also thinking I am her permanent distraction. I'm her permanent source of distraction. You for me represent just discipline in action and focus in action, which I love about you too. But I also know I can get away with sending you stuff to make you laugh and to make you remember we're all going to be okay. And yeah, I think the open heartedness is just again part of the work of life and of growing into the adult that you were meant to be. I think the idea of being open hearted is something that goes hand in hand with developing as an adult, that you are learning how to be yourself. After the years of formal schooling, after the years of figuring out which field of work or focus you want to have in your life and career, after the years of building your family and your community, that all of a sudden you realize there's more work to be done. But it's really very much centered in how you are treating yourself, how you are using your skills and where you can deploy them and, and how to make this system of your own operations go as smoothly as possible. I really do, in my heart of hearts, think that everyone has that as a deep wish and a deep desire. And some of us have made this just much more conscious and have invested in things like the conferences and the coaches and the books and the experiences because we understand that anything that we feed into our mo, our modus operandi is going to pay us back, is going to support us, is going to be the source of our self trust going forward. And the way that we can make a bigger ripple effect with our lives, no matter what our scene is, no matter what our dharma or purpose is that that open heartedness is our, our biggest gift to the world. That we can feel that we can absorb the world with all its pains and all of its imperfections and generate something with that to add our light to. That is such a wonderful game to play. And so thank you for seeing that in me. I see it in you as well.

[A]

Okay, so let's talk about clutter. Since, you know, basically an Olympic sport for ADHD brains, why does it feel so overwhelming? And what's the first step that's not going to make us want to just crawl under the covers?

[B]

I love those two questions. I'm going to just answer them both together. And I'm going to say at the top of this discussion that clutter is kind of the perfect adversary for the woman with adhd. Because clutter represents distraction. And in order to beat the clutter, we have to understand how to tackle the things that are distracting to us. So it's the perfect enemy, right? It's the enemy that is going to take your attention away from the thing that you actually prefer to do and actually want to get done. And yet it is also the symbol of if we can focus properly, then the world is ours, right? Then we can be at the top of our game. And that is why clutter is so distressing, emotionally distracting, focus wise and such a. It's like a disease. It kind of has all the symptoms and all the characteristics of a disease. It can go on for a very long time, undiagnosed, unrecognized, and it can be right in front of our feet, faces, and for all the world to see and cause us other symptoms like shame, embarrassment, difficulty navigating our own spaces.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Causing havoc in our home, maybe to our young children or to our elderly parents. And I think it has. Talk about opening my heart. I've had to open my own heart to this topic because it is something that I personally have a hatred for and a dislike of handling. But it turns out the clients that I work with, the women and men that I've worked with over the years, have basically asked me to start focusing on the topic because it was something that was so painful for them and so distracting and disruptive in their lives that they needed something to help them tackle this so that they could do all the other things that I wanted to teach them. And after a few years of this, I finally developed a simple challenge, which was just my attempts of saying, okay, let's. Let's just get started together on this. It wasn't a lot of research, and it wasn't like when I started doing the procrastination work. I really did do the reading and I did do the research with the clutter. I just used my intuition and I said, what can help people to see this issue as a lighter topic rather than a heavier one? What can I do to help people want to get their hands on the topic instead of hiding it in their closet again or ignoring it for another year?

[C]

Right.

[B]

And to get people together was actually part of the answer. Because when we have to handle things that are like kryptonite to us, it can be really hard. But when we band together and we have our energy in the same space looking at the same issue, generally we all do better. And we are not stuck with thinking, oh, not today. Oh, not me. Oh, I've never had success with this topic. You can see a different outcome, and I think that is very key in managing clutter as well.

[A]

You talk about clutter as more than just stuff. What's actually going on emotionally and psychologically when we hold onto things that we don't need?

[B]

That's such a complicated question. It rolls off your tongue, right? But if I knew that, I think, wow, this would be the answer to so many people's issue with clutter.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Because we're. We're so individually unique, and each thing that we hang on to is individually unique. I have. I'm looking at My own desk right now, and it's not horribly cluttered, but there's such an array of stuff, and each thing has a story, and some things belong on this desk and some things don't. And it's just kind of the clutter that we have is kind of the story of our. Our interactions with other people oftentimes, but also our history with our own decision making. And I think when it comes to the ADHD woman, I think there are difficulties with letting things go because of the prioritization, because of the overwhelm, because of not being trained to manage things and see that as the priority.

[C]

Right.

[B]

We're so busy trying to get regular life done that we're not seeing the management as so essentially.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And then when you see that, when I learned this from you, and I wanted to make sure that we included it in this episode, the idea of visual pollution.

[C]

Right?

[B]

So Tracy, one day, just when we were talking, as friends, said, well, why would I want to have visual pollution in my space? And I think Tracy lives with far less clutter than. Than I do, and it helps her to focus. And if I lived like Tracy, I would focus better. But I haven't yet gotten to that stage in my clutter journey where I really see it as pollution. I see myself as being really tolerant of things in general. I'm a very tolerant human being, but to a fault, right? Because I allow a lot of clutter as well. So why do we hang on to things? You know, we all know. We all. This is. This is true of procrastination, too. We all know when we're procrastinating. It's not rocket science, right? But the. The rocket science part of it is how do we untangle our need to hang onto the part that we don't want? Okay, so decluttering itself as a behavior is very simple. It is pick something up and put it in the garbage, right? But the difficult part of it is, is understanding what our attachment is to having it. And sometimes it can be very dysfunctional. Like, I am so guilty that I never got back to that person that I have to keep this thing on my desk blocking my view to remind.

[A]

Myself for the rest of my life, I did a shitty thing.

[B]

Correct? It is amazing to me how long people can hold themselves on purpose, indirectly and directly, with guilt and shame in relation to another person. It's amazing, right? And then when you teach yourself through coaching or therapy or just healing, having somebody say, oh, you can get rid of that, right? Sometimes it's literally another person Saying you still have that. And it's really going through those episodes of saying, I am safe no matter what I do, I am safe if I keep this, and I'm safe if I let it go. And I just think we don't have those experiences of allowing ourselves to be really guilt free.

[C]

Okay?

[B]

Really, truly, 100% free of guilt. Like, that is no longer part of my home. That is no longer welcome in my brain. That is no longer part of how I speak about my environment and my stuff and how I take care of my stuff, right? So one part of my own journey is that I am no longer tearing myself apart about stuff. I may still want the clutter to be gone, but I am no longer blowing my ego apart at thinking about this.

[C]

Right?

[B]

It's like I have now trained myself to think about really my higher goals. And day after day, I do try to toss things more quickly, right? I do try to bring fewer things in to, you know, give myself a leg up. It's just those 1% improvements. But clearing that inner space is probably the reason why we can't let go of things if we don't have a clear inner space. And it's also part of the answer is saying it is okay, I am safe. No matter how big an attachment I've had with this crystal on my desk, I can let it go, right? There was. I oftentimes say, there was a time in your life when that thing. There was a time in your life before you had the crystal, right? We're gonna be okay.

[A]

So I know for me, the reason why I keep stuff beyond when I should keep it, and I'm pretty good at it, is always about my lack of memory. Because when I see this thing, it reminds me of, oh, you know, like, kids clothes, or I'll find a bow or a little plastic basketball ring. I'm like, why am I keeping this crap? Because it reminds me of a time with my kids, and if I get rid of it, I'm afraid that I'm gonna forget.

[B]

Yeah. What an interesting thing. Because that's love and fear in one item, right? It's your love for the memory of what that brings to you, but it's also a fear of losing that memory of the love. Okay. And I will share one story that it's. It's a funny one. I was at a little pool gathering. Swimming pool. And it was my family and another family. And the children were young, and the wife of the other couple was French from France. And somehow the conversation got to be about the fact that there are no such things as high school yearbooks in France. And this blew my mind because I'm probably more inclined to enjoy memories and things like yearbooks. They really are symbolic of so much and so much of the American culture. And that comment just blew my mind. But I quickly associated that with the fact that probably the French people or something about the French culture is very much more rooted in the present moment, that we are not, or they are not giving over their present moment. Thinking about how funny we looked in the past or what we did back in the 80s. And that was kind of a mind opening moment for me.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Not every culture does this. We don't need to do this. You will live if you don't have a yearbook or you don't have a memory of that. And maybe your life will be better without it.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So it's really just considering, instead of the fear, can you consider that when you're past this fear that things will actually get better in the zone that you're fearing? And I think we have such a natural bias towards the negative that we forget. Wow, what if that part of my brain was now open forevermore? So those are tricky moments, right? Those are tricky moments. But I. I'd say over time, for me, it's like the less the better. The less the better because the present moment is so rich and so valuable. And let's just make more loving moments with those kids or with those people and maybe snap a photo instead. I don't know. There are things that may never be answered like that, but. But to allow yourself to have more flow somehow is going to be helpful, I think.

[A]

You know, I just love that French analogy. I had never thought about it, but if you think of French people, well, first of all, they don't work as much as we do. I mean, they're so upset, right. Because they might have to retire a year or two earlier when they already retire a lot earlier than Americans do. But they'll also sit at a meal and stay there for three hours. So they are so much more in the present. And I'm sure there's all kinds of other examples of this, but that's mind blowing to me as well.

[B]

Yeah. And just thinking about the model of, well, just because I've done it this way in the past, does that mean I need to keep doing that?

[C]

Right.

[B]

And I will switch over to the idea of, you know, you're talking about your own mementos. But so many of the clients that I'm working with these days are struggling with Other people's mementos that they have inherited.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Either by death or by moving or by just nobody else wanted to deal with the family's stories and this family stuff. And it just feels like a pure weight. W E I G H T and it for me, what the danger signal that you goes up for me is that that person is potentially losing valuable time in their life.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So, yes, there's a history and yes, there's a value in that, but I would say never overvalue history when it is stomping on your own precious life. That's where clutter is dangerous. That's where clutter is really, really dangerous.

[A]

And you talk about how our goal. I think you said this at the beginning. I know I always say it. Our goal is to become more of who we are. If you're dragging around other dead people's stuff, Right. You're basically being told that this is what's important because it's cluttering up your whole life when it may not be important to you. I mean, if it's important to you, then haul it around.

[B]

Yeah. And as we've seen in the younger generations, I don't think this is. They are. People younger than we are are much into accumulation. As much as we have been taught and as much as it has been valued when we were growing up and when we were going through our 20s and 30s and like, looking forward.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Ownership.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Having cars, having houses.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And I think flexibility is a real value these days. Mobility, flexibility and clutter is never something that we see as a good. Which I think is interesting. Right. There's no such thing as good clutter. And we really want to really, really take a look at. Look at for each person listening. How do I resonate with that statement? There is no such thing as good clutter.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And what am I tolerating by not moving on this? And so one of the strategies that I teach is that we want to move the decluttering up to the very top of our to do list because it will never rise to the top naturally, because there's always something you'd rather be doing. It is something that causes us to feel this aversion, this natural avoidance, because I say it's related to the past, and it's because it's related to indecision and it's related to fear, slash, love, and it is polluting our point of view. So let's just get rid of all of that as fast as we can. It seems obvious, but it generates this negative feeling and so we fight away those negative feelings. But that's why we need to get some help. Get in community around it, do it in very small slices and really celebrate any wins that we have in this department. Because you will create so much great energy in your life when you tackle this stuff.

[A]

Absolutely. I mean, even I talk about this all the time. I'll go buy a junk drawer. I actually only have two, but, you know, it'll just get so out of hand. And I will literally clean it up, and it usually takes me about, what, five minutes? Yet I have spent weeks, months, sometimes walking past that drawer, you know, with stuff flying out of it, and I clean it out, and then the next time I go to open it up, it's just like pure dopamine. It's like, oh, my God, I forgot I did this.

[B]

Yes, the dopamine effect. The dopamine effect, yes. And seeing in some ways, it's kind of like a time machine, right? What we've been through, what we forgot. And then I. I think when I work with people, inevitably people find things that they wanted, right? Things that they lost some extra money, some gift cards, the thing that they were looking for for so long. It's kind of like, allow yourself to brave the thing. Allow yourself to say, nothing can sink me. So on all different levels, decluttering can be very, very healing.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And it's also creating a cleanliness in your space. And that's, I think, always good.

[A]

Well, it gives you more bandwidth then to focus on the things that actually really are important to you.

[B]

Yes, yes. And you have more space. Space is necessary. Your energy should be really high when we can.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And clutter brings it down. Clutter emits energy, and we project negative energy onto the clutter. And we just don't want that in our space.

[C]

Right.

[B]

I think that's where Tracy's got the lead on this, with the no visual pollution.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And have two junk drawers max. And that's a beautiful space to be in.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Because there we. We also have to. Again, this idea of tolerance.

[C]

Right.

[B]

We want to be tolerant of things, but we don't want to tolerate things that are a drain on our energy, because we need every piece that we can get.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And that we have to see that the clutter does not have anything over us. We are the bosses. We are the movers. We are the people who know how to do this. But we just have to allow ourselves, the space, the time, the energy to do this. But that's a model of how to do things in general. That's a model of success that you can bring on and into any other area of your life. And that's what happens with my clients who go through my quick programs for decluttering. It really is this lightning agent.

[A]

Do you have a transformation story where decluttering completely changed someone's energy, their focus or their life?

[B]

I would say I think it changes everyone's lives for the better because there's such joy that is created for the group of seeing the wins and people I have people in my challenges post before and after pictures and if you've ever done anything like that, really feel like kudos for you because I am the leader of this kind of movement. But I have. I'm very reluctant to post photos because we get attached to our image and what people think and we're afraid. But when you see other people doing it, you just want to throw your own photos up to support other people in their development as well. So I really have seen many people win with each other and individual stories. There are many. There are many stories of finding missing money for sure. And that is like metaphorically it's about abundance is saying that I am not afraid and when I release my fear, I have more energy to attract what I actually want to see in life. So whether it's money or opportunity or the courage to do the interview for the better job.

[C]

Right.

[B]

The self improvement energy, I think that is something that can be opened up when you declutter. Other wins are dropping perfectionism because one of the reasons why clutter accumulates is because we get into an all or nothing mindset about the situation. Well, if I can't finish and I never seem to be able to finish, then why would I start? And then when we don't make any action, the problem expands. So people have been able to drop perfectionism by getting started. And so that leads away to asking for help to enjoying their current situation on a deeper level. And these I think are all success stories too.

[A]

Yeah. So do you have a go to strategy for breaking out of that I'll do it later mode because I can. Yeah, it feels too uncomfortable to deal with it now.

[B]

I did actually write a list in preparation for our conversation and I'm going to list these mindset shifts that I try to teach people. One is you want to change your avoidance into action. Simple.

[C]

Right.

[B]

That will solve your procrastination, but it will also solve your decluttering resistance. The other thing is you want to see that small steps are the tools. You're not thinking the entire room the entire basement.

[C]

Right.

[B]

We've all been there. Right. We just want the garage to be completely spick and span, but that's never going to be an easy chore. To do it all at once. That's. That actually might be impossible. So you want to say my mindset is now oriented on doing things. Things in small ways.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

The other mindset shift is I'm gonna do it with other people.

[C]

Right?

[B]

I am no longer gonna be stuck yelling at myself, thinking how crappy I am an organizer, and instead, I'm gonna do this by phone with my friend all the way across the country. And I've done that kind of thing before, and it's really fun. It's a great way to reconnect with old friends. Another mindset shift is I'm going to do it at the top of my list instead of at the bottom.

[C]

Right?

[B]

We're gonna do it first, we're gonna do it now, and we're gonna do it whenever we can fit it in. So we don't have to be dressed. We don't have to have a bunch of time. We're just gonna do it when our brain reminds us. Oh, yeah. You know what? I don't like how that corner looks. I don't like the fact that the dogs made a mess over here. Let me do.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So that's a mindset shift, too.

[C]

Right?

[B]

We don't need the perfect moment. Another one is I mentioned this already. We're going to shift away from perfection, and we're going to just enjoy any progress that we have. I'm sure you've mentioned that on this show millions of times, thousands of times.

[C]

Right.

[B]

We are never going to chain ourselves to a vision that we can't. We can't see happening in our lives. Right? This perfect thing happening right away. It's okay that it'll take some time. One more mindset. I think I have a few more. You want to see clutter as an energy drain. If you do not see that, you'll think. You'll fool yourself into thinking, oh, that is tolerable. Oh, that is not having an effect on me. When it's actually draining your energy and interfering with your focus. Research has shown that. That for sure. Another one. You mentioned this, Tracy, that you can see decluttering as a dopamine boost.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Instead of something that is going to make you even more tired than you are. This is what I've seen so much in these challenges with my clients. It's just like the joy that is released, the pride. It's just like this quick fix for the fact that life can feel really stressful. Like dare getting through your daily to do list, right? And not seeing that progress. Decluttering gives you a quick dose of, wow, I did that. And it was way easier than I thought it was going to be. And then this is a mindset about when you're choosing, well, what do I do right?

[C]

That.

[B]

That memento that may have some emotional charge to it. You want to say to yourself, is this going to be useful for me now? Is it supporting me now instead? And we're going to change that out for the idea of like, will I need this in the future? Because that's fear based and you want to bring it to the, to the present moment. And if it's not a clear yes, it's likely, like, you're going to be totally fine letting it go. And I really think that, that most of the time when I'm not actually decluttering, I am dreaming of having less stuff. That is how I spend my free time. It's just like, wow, at a certain point, I'm gonna tackle that drawer and get rid of the tights because I no longer wear tights, right? And I just haven't done that step yet. But these are how I dream these days because I know that that's going to bring me a better space, a better mood, more space, higher energy, you know, and it's no longer like a secret. Marie Kondo made it the big. The big fad, right? And the big trend. But we're many years past Marie Kondo's rise and now we're in times where things are feeling very stressful, where we're all managing in midlife. Many of us in midlife, stresses from different generations and the. We have big goals that we really do want. Time, space and energy to focus on. We want to keep ourselves feeling vibrant and healthy. And what are we doing allowing the clutter to hold us back in any way. It's now the time. This, you guys running into this episode is not an accident, right? This, this is Tracy and I telling you there are techniques that you can use that don't involve medication, that don't involve a lot of time. That will give you a boost, that will sharpen your focus, that will give you much more than you put in. And that's the decluttering fix.

[A]

So if someone's listening right now, they're drowning in clutter. They're completely frozen. What is the, the absolute easiest, lowest effort, first step that they can take today?

[B]

Touch One to three items.

[A]

Okay, what does that mean?

[B]

That is the thing that I accidentally created when I created this challenge. And that means you are physically going to touch with your fingers, right? One finger, ten fingers. I don't care. But you have to put your hands on the thing.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

That is the difference. That's the difference between thinking about decluttering and actually decluttering.

[C]

Right.

[B]

When we attach ourselves to stuff, we then kind of change the energy dynamics, and we're thinking, well, I don't like you. You feel the charge that it gives you. Is it disgusting? Is it out of date? Is it unwanted? Is it unloved? Is it out of place? That's so often for me, things are just. Just out of place, right? It's not. I'm not a hoarder, but I have a way of dropping things, right. Or not fully making it into the, you know, the drawer. And lately, my favorite habit is just doing the. It's. I was gonna say volcanic, but I don't mean that. It's like a tornado of the kitchen, right? At night, I'm like, in one fell swoop, I'm gonna clear the entire. Whatever's there, I'm going to clear it. And it's just like, that's my new routine. And it works and it's fine, right? It's is a pretty no. But does it work? Yes, because I can go to bed feeling like, okay, I didn't let it build.

[A]

Wake up in the morning and you get the additional dopamine boost. Right? Oh, gosh, I did this. Yay, me.

[B]

And I wanted to add that kind of routine idea in, because decluttering, it's never a one and done. We wish it were that way. But I do think that the, like, kind of clear mindset needs to be a lifestyle.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Just because you have ADHD or some ADHD symptoms does not mean you cannot build a new habit in your lifestyle.

[C]

Right?

[B]

A habit is just cue, routine, reward.

[C]

Right?

[B]

So for me, the cue is it's nighttime. The routine is, I do the tornado sweep, and the reward is I get an evening satisfaction feeling. And I love that. It's very simple. It takes like 5.7 minutes. It's okay, right? No one. And I'm not going to get written up in the papers about this, but it makes me happy every single day.

[A]

Okay, so one to three touch one to three things. Is that once a day or is it many times throughout the day?

[B]

I would say once a day to start. And I would say, really? Also, don't forget to celebrate that you did it.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And then catch that energy kick, and then you're going to want to do it. Yeah. Whenever. Whenever you've got a few minutes.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And to start leaving yourself the opportunity.

[C]

Right.

[B]

You might want to make a quick list. Okay. Next, I have this on my trello board.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Organized bathroom armoire.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And it's just like sitting there in waiting for the next time I can get rid of one of these trello cards. And if you don't know what trello is, Trello is a great tool T R e l l o.com for seeing in front of you on your screen some of the items that you want to tackle. And you can see it in whatever frame you want, whichever frame helps you to focus and to get things done. So that's a tool that I love to recommend as well.

[A]

Okay, so do you have an ADHD workaround that you can share with us? Something that just, you know, it works for you to address an ADHD symptom?

[B]

I would say it's the kind of thing that I just mentioned, which is to put it in your life.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Instead of thinking of it as another thing to do. All right, so it is a mindset trick, which is to say either to actually figure out how to make it drain your energy less or to allow your mindset and language to make it seem like it is not taking your energy as much. Okay. So an example would be the tornado kitchen cleanup at night. You can see that as, wow, seven minutes. I don't have, wow, seven minutes of somebody else should be doing that instead of me because I worked a long day or whatever.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And you just want to sweep aside those things are. That are not going to allow you to focus on your target goal.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So it is really saying that I am free from distraction, and I am responsible for identifying what is a distraction versus what is a touching kind of skill. What will get me closer to physically getting what I want. Okay, so that's a general ADHD workaround. That's saying, really be honest with yourself. Am I thinking about my energy or am I using it for my goal?

[C]

Right.

[B]

And it's so subtle. And we fool ourselves. I spent my entire childhood fooling myself about what I was doing with my energy.

[C]

Right.

[B]

I tried. I tried like nobody's business.

[C]

Right.

[B]

But was I actually doing. I wasn't actually doing.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So these things are subtle. Be really kind with yourself as you are learning these skills. If you have not learned them yet, know that progress is yours.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Just listening to us talking is Changing you.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Touching things in a new way is going to change you and your space. And it does not have to be this Mount Everest climb. It really does not.

[A]

So, Christine, are you working on something? I know you're working on something. You're always working on something that you want to tell us about and share with us.

[B]

I am working on preparing for my next re Energize your home challenge. That is the five day challenge. It's actually seven days, but I call it a five day challenge where I get women and men from around the world to touch one to three items. I of clutter. But we do it with this Facebook group. We do it in community. We do it with additional productivity hacks that I throw in. And it will take you about 15 minutes each day of the challenge. It's totally free. The next one that I'm running is starting on March 3rd, and you are all welcome to join me in the next round. This will be the eighth challenge that I'm running, and it is so seamless at this point. It's really, like, light and fun and we have repeat people coming in. And you all who have listened to this episode really have a sense of what you can expect now. Open space, finding some extra cash, making some friends, and getting over your resistance.

[C]

Right?

[B]

And resistance. Let's say that's enough talk about another foe. It's like we fight ourselves. We block ourselves. We're always trying to do our best. So even when we're blocking ourselves, there's some part of us. I believe this to my core, in my core, or to my core that we are always trying to do the best that we can. But when you join a challenge like the one I'm running in March, you will see that they're easy workarounds where you don't have to resist so much and you can just do the thing. So everybody join me. If I may, Tracy, I'm gonna drop a link. It is procrastinationcoach.com Tracy. Again, it's procrastinationcoach.com, tracy. And we'll get you signed up and we'll get you all the information that you need to join. It's really simple. It's really fun, and very, very effective. So thank you, Tracy, for letting me mention this today.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Absolutely. I think I need to join it. Dr. Lee, thank you so much for spending time with us here today. As always, it's just such a pleasure.

[B]

Thank you, Tracy. I honor you. I love you. Everyone who's here, just celebrate. Celebrate celebrate. You are geniuses, super women, and I'm just so proud of you. Thank you, Tracy.

[A]

Well, thank you. So that's what I have for you for this week. If you like this episode with Dr. Lee, please let us know by leaving a review. Our goal is to change the conversation around adhd, helping as many women as we possibly can learn how their ADHD brains work so that they too may discover their amazing strengths. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you here next week. You've been listening to the ADHD for Smartass Women podcast. I'm your host, Tracy Otsuka. Join us at ADHD for smartwomen.com where you can find more information on my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women and my patented you'd ADHD Brain is a okay system to help you get unstuck and fall in love with your brilliant brain. ADHD is not the problem. The way we've been told to manage it is. If you're tired of feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or like you're not living up to your potential, I want to help my you. ADHD Brain is a OK is a step by step patented program that actually works for ADHD brains like ours. No more forcing yourself into ordinary brain systems that just don't fit. If you're ready to thrive, find the link in the first line of this episode's description. Your brain is brilliant. Let me prove it to you.