EP. 323: Cas Aarssen: What’s Your Organizing Style?

Summary

Podcast Summary: ADHD for Smart Ass Women with Tracy Otsuka

Episode 323: Cas Aarssen – What’s Your Organizing Style?
Date: March 12, 2025
Host: Tracy Otsuka
Guest: Cas Aarssen ("Cass") – Creator of the Clutterbug Organizing Philosophy

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Overview

In this deeply engaging episode, Tracy Otsuka welcomes Cas Aarssen, a former “super slob” turned organizing expert, to discuss how understanding your personal organizing style can transform chaos into calm—especially for ADHD brains. Cass recounts her extraordinary life journey from being an undiagnosed, “trouble” child, homeless teenager, and prison inmate, to finding self-acceptance post-ADHD diagnosis at 40 and building a global organizing movement. The heart of the conversation is Cass’s "Clutterbug" system, which demystifies organizing by aligning strategies with a person’s natural tendencies—making sustainable organization both accessible and realistic for ADHD women.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Cass’s ADHD Journey: From Chaos to Clarity

• Life Before Diagnosis

  • Cass describes feeling fundamentally “wrong” her entire life—struggling in school and at home, experiencing homelessness at 15 after rebelling against family structure, and ultimately ending up in prison as a young adult.

    “I felt like I had to work so much harder than all the people around me to just be a grownup.” (04:22, Cass)

  • She internalized labels like “stupid, lazy, disobedient,” not understanding her brain's differences (06:26).
  • After release from prison, Cass worked multiple jobs, trying to fit into adult responsibilities that felt impossibly hard.

• The Turning Point & Diagnosis

  • Cass was diagnosed at age 40, after her doctor (using a very old-school approach) prescribed Ritalin:

    “If it gets you high, you don't have ADHD. If it calms you down, you do.” (04:22, Cass recalls)

  • Cass describes the diagnosis as life-changing, bringing a profound sense of forgiveness and self-understanding:

    “I just wanted to hug that little girl and say, you weren’t bad and you weren’t lazy—you just didn’t know.” (17:23, Cass)

The Root of Disorganization: Cass’s Organizing Awakening

• Messiness, Marriage, and Motherhood

  • Cass struggled to keep up with daily home management tasks, consistently failing at traditional organizing systems set up by her “naturally organized” husband (20:28).

• Discovering Her Own System: Buckets & Labels

  • By shifting to broad categories (e.g., chucking items into labeled bins rather than detailed folders), Cass found organization achievable for her ADHD brain (21:03).
  • This simple change led to consistently tidy spaces and birthed her professional organizing career.

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The Clutterbug Organizing System: Four Unique Organizing Styles

Cass explains that sustainable organization requires aligning methods with your natural preferences for sorting and storing: micro vs. macro, visual vs. hidden.
(26:56)

The Four Clutterbug Types

| Clutterbug | How They Sort | Storage Preference | Example | |--------------|------------------|--------------------|-----------------------------| | Butterfly | Macro (laid back) | Visual (see items) | Open bins, easy toss-in | | Ladybug | Macro (laid back) | Hidden | Quick to hide, not detailed | | Cricket | Micro (detailed) | Hidden | Perfectionist, files away | | Bee | Micro (detailed) | Visual (see items) | Everything on display, neat |

• People can fall on a spectrum, e.g., “butterbees,” depending on how they balance these tendencies.

“The only thing that matters is that things are being put away quickly and easily, and things are being found quickly and easily… It shouldn’t be hard.” (29:26, Cass)

Real-World Application

• Diagnosis as Organizing Style: Cass could tell a client’s style just by how their home looked and tailored systems accordingly, ending “repeat” visits and launching her online platform (24:54).
• Youtube & Media: Cass’s excitement led to a widely followed YouTube channel endorsed by her husband to contain her “hyperfocus” (25:48).

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Common Organization Mistakes & ADHD Workarounds

• Biggest Mistake: Not decluttering first. People jump into organizing without eliminating excess, resulting in decision fatigue (31:32).
• Mistake #2: Creating too many piles/categories—this overwhelms the ADHD brain (33:14).
• Fix: Use the physical constraints of the storage space (e.g., “four shelves, four categories”) to dictate sorting, and make “yes/no” decisions before organizing.

On Decision Fatigue

• ADHD brains crave less choice, not more. Cass and Tracy discuss how limitations (like a bin or a number goal) can provide decision relief:

  “If this had poop on it, would I wash it off?” (41:44, Cass, suggesting ruthless criteria for letting go)

Emotional & Memory Attachments

• Bees especially struggle to declutter due to strong visual/emotional links.

  “They are more attached to things than any other organizing style... because they’re so visual, when they see something it invokes a memory and an emotion.” (35:54, Cass)

• Solution: Give each family member one large memory bin for sentimental items—when it’s full, you’ve reached the limit (38:33).

Turn Decluttering into a Game

• Try the “21 Item Toss”—hunt for 21 things to part with, to make the process playful and ADHD-friendly (42:25).

  “You’re just hunting like an Easter egg hunt… instead of chocolate, we’re looking for stuff that can go.” (44:01, Cass)

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Identity Clutter & Letting Go

• Cass shares that her personal kryptonite is “identity clutter”—things tied to self-image (craft supplies, books, decorative pillows) (45:09).
• Reframes for letting go: “Are you really a book lover if you’re not sharing books with others?” (47:58).
• “When everything is special, nothing is special.”

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Practical & Personal Strategies for ADHD

• Alarms & Reminders: Cass uses digital reminders and smart devices (“Alexa in every room”) to stay on task—an essential ADHD accommodation (49:04).
• The value of embracing “too muchness” and using ADHD’s unique strengths to create a joyful life.
• Family adaptation: Making rules that support the household (e.g., “no singing at the dinner table,” for her and her daughter) (50:17).

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Forgiveness Post-Diagnosis:

  “I just wanted to hug that little girl and say, you weren’t bad and you weren’t lazy—you just didn’t know… your brain worked differently and nobody else knew either.”
  (17:23, Cass)

• On Childhood School Trauma:

  “If I had [fidget chairs and tools], I would have been able to pay attention… being told I was bad, from such a young age… I really embraced being bad.”
  (13:40, Cass)

• On Organizing Styles:

  “Knowing how you naturally touch and put your things down, and adapting your home to catch your clutter—the way your brain naturally works—is a very effective way to set up a system.”
  (27:54, Cass)

• On Decluttering Sentimental Items:

  “Give each family member one big plastic bin... fill it with the best of the best... when it’s full, it’s made the decision for you.”
  (38:33, Cass)

• On Identity Clutter:

  “I am still a crafter without needing to keep every single craft supply. In fact, I’ll be a better crafter when I only have what I use and love.”
  (46:34, Cass)

• On Embracing ADHD Strengths:

  “I really feel so lucky to have been born with ADHD.”
  (17:23, Cass)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Cass’s Backstory & ADHD Diagnosis: 04:22–18:26
• Organizing Breakthrough: Buckets and Labels: 21:03–22:58
• Birth of Clutterbug Philosophy & The Four Types: 26:56–28:47
• Discussion: Visual vs. Hidden, Detailed vs. Broad Organizing: 28:47–30:15
• Biggest Organizing Mistakes & Overcoming Decision Fatigue: 31:32–34:48
• Sentimental Ties & Identity Clutter: 35:54–41:22, 45:09–48:30
• Decluttering Strategies: Memory Bins & 21 Item Toss: 38:33, 42:25–44:42
• Alarms as ADHD Strategy: 49:04–49:47
• Learn Your Style, Take the Quiz: 51:06–51:30

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Where to Find Cass Aarssen

• Website & Quiz: clutterbug.com
• YouTube: Clutterbug channel
• Social Media: @clutterbug on all platforms

“You can take the free quiz and find your organizing style at clutterbug.com. I don’t even ask for your email because that’s annoying. Just fill out the quiz, discover your style, and get lots of free advice.” (51:06, Cass)

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a testament to resilience, reinvention, and the life-changing power of working with your brain, not against it. Cass’s warmth, authenticity, and humor make complex organizing concepts feel personal and achievable, particularly for ADHD women who may have internalized years of shame around “messiness.” By identifying your Clutterbug style, you can build organizing systems that actually stick—and maybe even fall in love with your ADHD brain.

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For more info on Tracy Otsuka’s work, her new book, and her A-OK Academy for ADHD women, visit adhdforsmartwomen.com.

Transcript

[A]

Richard Branson, Michael Phelps, Justin Timberlake, James Carville. Wait a minute. Where are the women? Greta Gerwig, Lisa Ling, Audra McDonald, Simone files. That sounds like a list of highly successful titans in a variety of industries. They all have adhd, but you don't hear hear much about that now, do you? You know what else you don't hear about are the 43% of people with ADHD who are in excellent mental health. Why aren't we talking about them and what they're doing right? I'm your host, Tracy Adsuka, and that's exactly what we do here. I'm a lawyer, not a doctor, a lifelong student, and now the author of my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women. I'm also a certified ADHD coach and the creator of youf ADHD Brain is okay. A patented system that helps ADHD women just like you get unstuck and fall in love with their brilliant brains. Here we embrace our too muchness and we focus on our strengths. My guests and I credit our ADHD for some of our greatest gifts. And to those who still think they're too much, too impulsive, too scattered, too disorganized, I say no one ever made a difference by being too little. No sponsors, no ads, just real ADHD support. Because I know how much bad advice is out there. If you are ready to start falling in love with your ADHD brain, here's how. Your ADHD brain is not the problem. The way you've been taught to use it is ready to finally work with it and not against it. Then check out my youy ADHD Brain is a okay Academy. You'll find the link in the first line of this episode's description. Now let's get on with the show. Hello, I am your host, Tracy Otsuka. Thank you so much for joining me here for another episode of ADHD for Smartass Women. You know that my purpose is always to show you who you are and inspire you to be it. In the thousands of ADHD women that I've had the privilege of meeting, I've never met a one that wasn't truly brilliant at something. Not one. So of course, I am just delighted to introduce you to Cassandra Arson or Cass. Cass Arson is a self proclaimed super slob turned organizing guru. Those were her words, not mine. And the mastermind behind the Clutterbug organizing philosophy. Because what Cass discovered early on is that organizing is not one size fits all. After years of battling clutter, she cracked the code by identifying four unique organizing styles known as Clutterbugs and developed personalized systems that help individuals stay organized for good. Once you know yours, staying organized actually sticks. Now she's on a mission to help families ditch the mess and take back their homes. As the host of HGTV's Hot Mess House and the Face Behind a wildly popular YouTube channel, podcast, and Facebook group, Cass dishes out practical judgment, free advice, and that actually works. As Cass says, find your clutterbug style. Work with your brain, not against it. We love that here. And finally, get organized for good. Based in Ontario, Canada, Cass continues to transform lives one home at a time. Welcome, Cass. Did I get all that right?

[B]

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I am so thrilled. I feel like I'm like an ADHD baby. So I'm so excited to talk more about it.

[A]

Yeah. Well, when I was on your podcast, I was so inspired by your story, because the transformation, it was literally like, night and day. So can we start there and talk about how you actually got diagnosed?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I feel like my whole life, I was. Something was wrong. Obviously something was wrong. And I really struggled to fit in. I struggled in school. I struggled as a teen. And there was a part of my life, like, I was a homeless teen, and I had drug addictions, and there was crime, and I went to prison. Like, real, real big people, horrible prison. I felt like I had to work so much harder than all the people around me to just be a grownup. I don't know if that makes sense. Like, adulting was hard, and I wasn't diagnosed until I was 40. And at this point, I had found workarounds and coping strategies, and my life on the outside was really successful, but inside, I felt like I was juggling a million balls and dropping 99% of them. And my doctor said to me, I don't know if you want me to say this, but I'm gonna say it. I cried to him about, like, I'm never on time. I always forget everything. I'm supposed to be an expert in organizing. I can't find my keys. And he said, I think you might have adhd. And he said, here's what we'll do. I'll give you some Ritalin if it gets you high. You don't have adhd. If it calms you down, you do. He was in his 80s. Okay, so this is not a great diagnostic tool, but it changed my life. It absolutely changed my life.

[A]

If we could go back to your childhood for a second, how much did you think your struggles were just related to trauma? Or did you Even know about trauma then? Did you just think it was you and that you were defective? There was something wrong with you?

[B]

I definitely didn't know anything about trauma, and I don't think I had a traumatic incident that happened. My mom would say I was born annoying and hyper, so I just came out of the womb, would never stop talking, moving, jiggling, ants in my pants all the time. And I also was extremely impulsive, and I had a really hard time taking no for an answer. So I kind of, like, I don't know, fought back against authority, I guess.

[A]

Yeah. Oppositional.

[B]

Yeah. I didn't mean to be bad. I wanted so badly to be good. And yet it seemed like I just continually broke every rule. And I just had a really hard time with the who school format, which was sit still, be quiet, and memorize. And those are the three things I struggled with the most. So at a very young age, it was apparent to me, like, I was stupid, I was lazy, and I was kind of disobedient or irresponsible was the narrative I was getting from, like, all the adults in my life.

[A]

I'm curious, then, when you say you were homeless, this really had nothing to do with your family. This had to do with you being so oppositional that everybody was annoyed with you. They didn't know what to do with you. And what, you ran away?

[B]

Yes, that's exactly what happened. So at the age of 15, I also felt like I was definitely a latchkey kid, and I kind of did what I want and came and went and felt very independent. So as I, you know, started to do bad things, my parents were like, we. She needs more rules and structure. And I was like, rules and structure is not my thing. So I just, one day, very impulsively, I think my parents probably gave me extra chores or something. Like, I was obnoxious, packed a backpack and left. We lived in the country, just walked aimlessly to find somewhere to go. And I was way too stubborn to ever go back. And I just was like, I'll figure this out. I'll find a way. There's got to be an easier way. And when I. I did a lot of therapy, really looking deep into this, I know that this came from a place of. I saw my parents and other adults say, if you just work hard in school, if you just keep trying, you'll get a job like we have and can have this life, too, of going to work all day at a job that seemed like a nightmare, then coming home and doing laundry and cooking and cleaning to go to bed to get up and do it all over again. I was like, I do. If that's what life is like, I'm going to go just forage in the forest, I guess, because, like, honestly, I wasn't. I just didn't. I couldn't even imagine living a life like that in a tiny box like that. So I rebelled very young and just ran away. Yeah. I mean, it was hard and it was horrible and there was many, many times I was like, you gotta go home, Cass. This was a mistake. But it was also exciting and new and every day I had to fight for a place to sleep and fight to find food. And in some twisted way, that felt more normal than, you know, a home life. Yeah.

[A]

So did you have siblings?

[B]

I have step siblings, but I was raised an only child with my mom and my stepdad. Yeah.

[A]

Today, do you see any of these traits, this oppositional, challenging the status quo? I'm gonna do it my way. Do you see it in your. Either one of your parents?

[B]

I don't.

[A]

Grandparents.

[B]

Yeah. My grandma is very much like buck the system type of person, but she, you know, she played by the rules and did the whole thing. My mom definitely has adhd, but I think hers came out more in it, like anxiety. So she sort of internalized that hyperactivity. And because she didn't do what you.

[A]

Did, you know, it was like, nope, I'm gonna keep it all in. I'm gonna be a good girl. I'm gonna play by the rules. And you're like, hell no.

[B]

I'm like, I'm gonna be wild. Yeah. So she, I mean, she's so opposite. She doesn't like to leave the house at all. She's very like super, super anxious, whereas I just was extremely wild. But again, like, I didn't think things through. I didn't think about consequences. I didn't think about tomorrow. I just like, impulsively I had a thought and I took action on it.

[A]

How long did this last? Like 15. You walk out of the house. When did you come back?

[B]

Well, I never actually went home. When I was 18, almost 19, I actually. I found out very quickly that it sucks being broken cold. And eventually I started shoplifting, like chocolate bars and things to eat. And then it went up from there and thought it was some sort of. I don't know. You ever seen that movie Catch Me if youf can with Leonardo DiCaprio? Yeah. Yeah. Like 16 year old me, 17 year old me thought I was that guy. And I started like doing like fake businesses and bank Frauds and just ridiculous, ridiculous things to make money, to pay rent. Because I was so young. It's hard to get a job when you're homeless. They can't, you know what I mean? It's hard to have resumes, it's hard to have clean clothes. So I definitely was doing like little petty crime and then it turned into more. So eventually the long story short is I got arrested and I had been arrested quite a few times as a teen, but as an adult, 18 arrested, I got sent to prison, prison, prison, prison. And I actually served nine months. And the day that I got out I was like, I will never break the law again. I am never going back there. That was awful. I will fall in line. I was scared straight. I will follow the rules. And I, I got a job. I was in a homeless shelter when I left. But then I got a job and then a second job, saved up for an apartment and was working three jobs eventually just, just to get by, just to scrape by. And I thought, well, I guess this is what it's like to be a grown up. And I probably would have done that for the rest of my life if this like really amazing life changing thing hadn't. But I decided like that was it, that was the real turning point for me. So I didn't go home, but I did like I was no longer living that life. I can tell you that prison's for real.

[A]

Your parents must have been so relieved and maybe that was the only thing that would work for you so you wouldn't end up dead. Right? Yeah, prison actually worked for you.

[B]

It sounds like it's true. And I remember I got caught stealing a car when I was 15 and at this point, yeah, I was homeless. It was cold outside. Listen, I live in Canada, okay. It just, I didn't want to walk home and someone had left their car running outside of a 711 and I was like, not home but like to the place where I was staying. I was like, I'm just going to drive this car. Like I was so insane. Anyways, my parents showed up to court and were like basically begging the judge, send her to jail, she needs hard consequences. But it wasn't until I was a lot older that I got those consequences and thank God I did. Honestly, like I'm so blessed and lucky that I never got addicted to hard drugs or I never had something horrible happen to me as a young girl. I have, I have a 16 year old and 18 year old daughter. The thought of her sleeping outside, I would sleep in strangers houses. I Slept. I would hitchhike and sleep in the back of like random truck drivers. They would pick me up and never ever did anything awful happen to me. People took care of me. People. I was just. I had so many wonderful people who really just, you know, were there to catch me. And I'm so lucky. I was such an idiot. And it just, it just really did work out. So. Yeah, eventually I was like, I'm not gonna do that stuff anymore.

[A]

Well, and the thing about it is, we're joking around. Oh, you know, well, prison actually worked for you. But the truth of the matter is it did not have to be that way. It shouldn't have been that way. So now I'm curious. The adults in your life just did not know what to do.

[B]

You exactly.

[A]

What should they have done instead?

[B]

Yeah, well, you know what? I recently became a firefighter. A part time firefighter. And of course I did. Yeah, because like, my life wasn't exciting enough. I know I still have it, man. I still have the little wildness, but it's like, you know, good wild. But I was in a school and I was teaching fire prevention and I literally had to leave the room because I burst into tears. It was so embarrassing. But because there was so many children with rocking chairs and there was so many children that on their desk had had fidget toys, they had baskets, you know, so while they were listening to the presentation, they were doing stuff, they were paying attention and they were listening, but they were fidgeting with quiet things, they were rocking back and forth in the rocking chair. And I burst into tears because I thought if I had that I would have been able to pay attention. In school I used to get in trouble for doodling on the paper. Like they literally wanted me to sit perfectly still and be quiet and. And for one entire year of grade six, I had to have my desk in the hall because I disrupted all the children around me, singing, tapping, talking. And so being told I'm bad, being told, you know, all of these things from such a young age, always in trouble. I really embraced being bad. I was like, well, I'm trying to be good and I can't anyways. I might as well just be bad because I'm born bad. And seeing how schools really adapted to children saying like, no, you're, you know, this is just you, this is how your brain works. And fidget if you have to fidget, fidget rock if you have to fidget. I was so emotional about that because just that I feel like would have changed everything.

[A]

Do you have conversations with your parents about this.

[B]

Now, I don't. We're. We're not super close. They're not really emotional people. But I'm. I'm actually, like, so grateful for the childhood I had. They definitely tried their best, and I think without all the struggles that I went through and without all the hard, I wouldn't have had the grit that I had to have the life I have today. So I know that sounds really weird, but I think if I would have. I just don't know where I would have ended up, and I wouldn't want to change anything about the life I have today. So I'm really, really grateful. I do think kids today. I'm just so happy that there's therapists and there's. And there's people that can recognize these symptoms and know, like, oh, that's ADHD. Whereas when I was a kid, I'm 46, man. No one even mentioned, like, it wasn't on. On anyone's radar. I'm from a very small town in Canada. I hadn't even heard about anyone even mention it till I was in my late, even 30s and didn't even think I had it. I thought it was something that, like, obnoxious children had. Didn't ever put the pieces together until I was 40 and my doctor said something.

[A]

Wow. Wow. That's an incredible story. And I've got to believe that if you can do what you did at 15, you must have this sense that if I could survive that I can do anything.

[B]

Yeah. I also, like, I don't know what I was thinking. Like, now I'm like, oh, gosh, I have to drive the fire truck. And I'm like, oh, God, this is scary. Like, I. I didn't have that fear back then. I. I think that's a normal teenage thing, though, right? You just, like, they do crazy things. So adding that on top of adhd, combining that teenage angst and that kind of wildness that teens have, and on top of that, just me not giving a nefs, Tracy, because I thought I was bad anyways, was no future where I was going to go and be a doctor or anything. Like, I was just, you know, not in that system.

[A]

But I bet you, you'd be a hell of a doctor, Right?

[B]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

[A]

What has changed since you were diagnosed at. I think you said 40, right?

[B]

Yeah. Man. I have so much forgiveness for myself. I spent the majority of my adult life trying to sort of just make up for all the bad that I did as a teen kind of Overcompensating with good acts, trying to fil my karma tank because I had made so many mistakes. I was trying to sort of, yeah, just make amends everywhere, constantly. And when I was diagnosed, I just cried because I felt like I just wanted to hug that little girl and say, you weren't bad and you weren't lazy and you just didn't know. You just didn't know. And your brain worked differently and nobody else knew either. And that kind of like self love and self acceptance and forgiveness and was like, ugh. And plus now there's so much information out there about coping skills and like different tools I can use. I like embrace this. And I know some ADHD ers are like, it's not a superpower, but I really feel so lucky to have been born with adhd.

[A]

I absolutely love hearing that. So you call yourself a recovering super slobber. What was your kind of 18 years old in jail moment where you finally said, okay, enough is enough, I'm not doing this anymore.

[B]

I just had. I got my butt kicked in prison. Okay. So my nickname was Princess because, you know, I was like this little girl, like, hey guys, what's up? You were in prison? You know, I was just completely just not meant to be there.

[A]

Did you have friends?

[B]

No. In prison. Oh no.

[A]

That must be so scary.

[B]

Oh no. They were all much, much older and hardened and I mean it wasn't like baby, it was like real, for real prison. I went to real, for real prison. So I think looking back, what they were trying to do was scare me straight because I was very young and very naive. And I think they were like, we can't let this kid come back. We can't let this kid come back. So they were real hard on me. Would steal my food every day, I'd get beat up all the time. Awful. It was awful, awful, awful, awful. So when I left, like, we'll talk about trauma, that's like the only trauma I had. I was like, like, I'll never again break the law. But then trying to do the whole working, paying bills, do your laundry on a regular basis, wash dishes, Boy, I sucked at all that. I sucked really bad. And then when I met my husband, we got married, we started having children. My lack of ability to maintain my home became really apparent. Little babies come with a lot of stuff and it was, I had a very hard time managing the day to day house stuff. Like every day. I couldn't find the umbrella and I couldn't find my kids matching shoes and I couldn't Find my wallet. And. And why can't I. I don't even have time to shower. And why are there toys everywhere? And I just was naturally extremely messy.

[A]

And so one day you woke up and you said, said, I can't do this anymore.

[B]

Yeah. My husband was, who's very naturally organized and really meticulous. He used to try setting. I was like a stay at home mom running a little daycare. So he's like, okay, well, you can pay the bills and you can do. I'm gonna help you. I'll set up this filing system. It's like, here's the Visa and here's the gas bill. It goes here. And here's the electricity bill. And I would forget to pay the bills. And then when I did pay the bills, I just shoved them in a drawer. And I wouldn't use his fancy system. And he's like, what is going on? You like, it's not that hard.

[A]

Good. Then you do it.

[B]

Yeah. But it was everything. Like, I would like, you know, be done with. Need a band aid and then just shove it where the box, wherever I could find it. There was. I couldn't do details. One day I went to the dollar store and I just got a bunch of dish pans because back then they didn't even have containers. Like, I'm. I'm older. So anyways. And I labeled it paid bills. And then I would just put the bills, paid bills when I was done, in a bucket. Bucket. Same with all the, you know, medication in a bucket called medication. And all my first aid in a bucket called first aid. And magically I started staying tidy, like using these big categories where I could put something away, like a basketball from across the room. So I started doing it with kids toys. All the dolls in a bucket, all the blocks in a bucket where I could just toss it, and everything was labeled. And that did something in my brain where I started like, whoa, I don't have to hunt for things anymore. And everything's kind of staying pretty organized. And then I thought I was a genius, that I was on to something. You know, I'm like, there's two ways to organize. You can be like a detailed person who needs lots of categories or a non detailed person who needs big, broad categories with no lid, no barriers, to just chucking stuff away. And that changed my life. And I started helping friends who were also chronically disorganized with this system. And then I had a friend who was like, my neighbor wants to hire you. And then, you know, that led word of mouth and before you know it, I was like, a professional organizer. Question mark. It was very bizarre.

[A]

How did we go from there to clutterbug and everything you've built today?

[B]

Yeah. So I decided maybe I should do this for a business. Like, for reals. I was running a daycare, and eventually I realized there isn't just two ways to organize. There's four. Because I was so insecure, I said, listen, here's my. Here's my marketing pitch. As a professional organizer, it was a bad idea, but listen, it was. If it doesn't stay organized for 30 days, I'll come back and organize it for free. Free? Yeah. Yeah. People called and they were like, it's a mess again. And I was like, I guess I'm coming back for free. And then, like, after a couple months of this, my husband's like, you are losing money. This is a sinking ship over here, lady. You gotta quit. You can't. You can't do this. That's like, either change your marketing strategy and just let them be messy or.

[A]

Quit or make them pay you when you come back.

[B]

I know, but I was, like, determined, you know, because this is the thing. I'm stubborn. And what I discovered was, was why isn't it staying organized? What makes this client different? What is it that they're struggling with? And what I realized was, but I had one lawyer that. It just dawned on me. We had tried a bunch of different methods, and I. She kept pulling things out and spreading it or spreading her mess subconsciously. And I was like, oh, you're visual. It's out of sight, out of mind for you. You can't have things in filing cabinets and drawers and behind closed doors. You gotta see your stuff.

[A]

Yeah. Adhd.

[B]

Yeah. So I redesigned a system that was detailed because she loves details, but super visual. And she didn't call me back. And then I got to a point where I could go into someone's home and diagnose their organizing style just by looking at how they lived. And people were not calling me back after 30 days. And that's when I knew I was on to something. So I started making videos about my journey, and I had a little blog, and it just really grew organically from there.

[A]

What year was this when you started going online?

[B]

Oh, my gosh, like, 13, 14 years ago. It's been a. I'm a dinosaur on the YouTube. Yeah. My husband got me a little flip camera. I don't know if you remember those. You, like, hand. Yeah. And he was like, huh? Could you shut up about the Organization. He didn't say it like that, but he was like, like, you got to stop talking to me about organizing. I was obsessed. I was hyper focused. He's like, maybe record yourself and put it on this new thing called YouTube so I don't have to hear about it 24 7. And that's exactly what I did. And I was so excited. And I had so much things I had found out. I was like, this is amazing. This works. And I just was so excited to share that I started sharing my excitement and my time tips on YouTube and it, it really grew.

[A]

So this would have been like 2011, 2012.

[B]

Yeah, maybe even like 2010. When I started, I started just as a hobby. So it was like every now and then when I wanted to talk about it, I would share. And then someone said to me, how much money are you making on YouTube? And I went, you can make money. I had no idea. And it literally was like a click of a button. I just, I'm not big on reading instructions or details or researching stuff, you know what I mean? So I didn't know. And then I was like, oh, this whole time, click. And then I started making money. So I decided, yeah, I could quit my job as running a daycare and do this full time. And eventually I. I was earning enough money off of YouTube and other things that I didn't have to work with clients anymore either. I got to, I still miss that. But now I get to work with like coaching thousands or even millions of people, which is so fulfilling. Ah.

[A]

So you talk about these four clutterbug styles and the first one you talked about was. Well, the only one you've talked about thus far is visual. So I'm curious what the four styles are. Can you give us a rundown?

[B]

Yeah. So your organizing style is a combination of how you naturally sort and how you naturally store. So how you sort, are you a detailed person? Do you like lots of little categories or are you a non detailed laid back? So like a micro or a macro organizer? And then the other side is, are you visual or do you prefer things hidden? And then that's your combination. So you can't put everyone into four categories, but most people fall on kind of a spectrum. So a butterfly is someone who's really visual, but they're not detailed. So they need fast, easy, laid back systems. That's a butterfly. And a ladybug is someone who likes hidden storage. But again, they're laid back, not details. That's what I am. I'm a ladybug shoving and hiding, but they don't want to see it, but they're not going to put it away neatly, you know. And then there's a cricket who's a hidden, very detailed person. Detailed people tend to be perfectionists, so they like things in a certain way. They're very meticulous, and they'll take time to put something away in a detailed way. And then there's a bee who is a very, very visual person, but very detailed and meticulous. And again, you can be on a spectrum. So there's butterbees, there's cricket bugs. It's all. It's a whole. It's a whole thing. But where this is helpful is in the area where you're really struggling to keep it tidy. Knowing how you naturally touch and put your things down and adapting your home to catch your clutter, the way your brain naturally works is a very effective way to set up a system because it. It doesn't take effort to maintain it because you're literally just doing what your brain naturally does when you're putting things down.

[A]

This is fascinating. So, unfortunately, I think I'm a b. I drive the rest of my family nuts. Nobody can fold towels the right way because, you know, they all have to be lined up and perfect because it hurts my brain if it, you know, or fitted sheets. I mean, can you ever fold those where it doesn't look like a disaster? Faster.

[B]

Don't freak out, but I don't fold anything. Nothing. Not one thing. I shove everything. I just shove it in a wrinkly old ball and move on with my life in full ladybug fashion. Despite being apparently one of the top organizing experts in the world, I never fold nothing. Bizarre, right?

[A]

Everything, like, behind you always looks so perfect.

[B]

Yeah, it's a ladybug, man. Ladybug all day. I can find it and I can put it away fast. And that's all that matters, right? I can find it and I can put it away. But that's why knowing yourself and what works for you and also your family members, what their organizing style is, so you can adapt a system. Because at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is that things are being put away quickly and easily, and things are being found quickly and easily. End story. That's the only thing that matters. So it shouldn't be hard, it shouldn't feel hard to keep your house organized and tidy. And I think why it feels hard is because we're working against ourselves, trying to fit ourselves into a box. Kind of like my whole childhood Trying to cram myself into, like, how you're supposed to live.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Instead of just really working with your strengths instead of your weaknesses.

[A]

Because you're absolutely right. Ultimately, the reason why we organize is so we can find things.

[B]

Things. Yeah. So we can put it away easily.

[A]

Oh, so we don't have to look at it. And we can also find it when we need it.

[B]

Yeah. And some people want to look at it, but it. But let's make it not look like mess and clutter. Let's have things be, you know, we can find it, we can put it away. That's the only thing. It has to be functional. That's all there is to it. And. And that for everybody is a little bit different.

[A]

Before we dive back in, a quick reminder. Your brain is not disordered. The problem is no one ever gave you its manual. But I can and I will. Your ADHD brain is a. Ok. Academy is my step by step patented program to help you figure it all out. Click the link in the first line of this episode's description to learn more more. Or book a discovery call. Now let's get back to the show. What is the biggest mistake that you think people make when they're trying to get organized and what should they do instead?

[B]

Yeah, so definitely the biggest mistake. No one wants to hear this, but they don't declutter first. So we definitely have decision fatigue. And when we go to organize, our brain says there's a couple of mistakes, but our brain says, let's sort things into lots of piles. Let's like take this big pile and make 50 million piles. But then our brain isn't thinking about if we should actually keep this item or not, because it's very difficult for us to have multiple thoughts at once whether we have ADHD or not. So we're picking up this pen and we're like, I gotta put it in the pen pile. We're not thinking, do I actually need this pen? So the first thing to do is yes, no, everything. So you pick it up. Yes, no, yes, I want to keep it. No, it can go. And then we go back and we organize what's the yes that's left? And the other big mistake that people make is sorting into lots and lots and lots and lots of little piles. Because then what do you do? Then what do you put all the piles? What are you doing? What are you doing, friend? That's terrible. So instead we actually sort. We let the container that we're sorting into or the. Or the shelf or the drawer determine our categories. So a standard shelf, a standard closet, like a one door closet, has four shelves. Shelves, which means you have four categories. Like, what is one going to be for towels? Is one going to be for medication and vitamins is one. And then we sort into that shelf is a much better way than just making a billion piles on the floor.

[A]

I don't know if you've ever been there where you decide, oh, like, I don't know who taught me this, but when you clean out your garage, you're supposed to take everything out. And so I'm a complete perfectionist. And I am working on.

[B]

On it.

[A]

I would take everything. I would make my kids and my husband would take everything out of the garage. We'd clean down the garage so you could eat out of it. And then it would be, like, nighttime, and all this crap would be out in front of the house or on the side of the house. So.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I know.

[B]

What happens is we. This is so normal. Even if we're doing a drawer, we take everything out of the drawer, we clean the drawer, then we sort everything into little piles, then we put it all back in the drawer, and it just becomes one big jumbled mess again. Like, say you. It Spin spent like, four hours to do nothing, and it's like, what am I doing?

[A]

You know, you're so right about decisions, too. We think. I had this, like, complete aha. The other day. I was in a restaurant, and the whole premise of this or what I'm setting up is that we think we want more choices. Yeah. But that's not true. So I'm in a restaurant, and I'm literally trying to decide between three things, and it has become a problem. Like, my husband will look at me and it's like, why is this so hard for you? Well, because, you know, it's uncertain. I don't know if it's going to taste good. This isn't like Baskin Robbins. I can't have, like, little tastes. The server came up and I started. I don't know why I do this, but I'm like, okay, tell me about this, this, and this. I could read the menu, but I want the server to basically make the decision for me. I give him the three, and he looks at me and he says, oh, sorry, we're sold out of this one and this one. And you'd think I would have been upset, right? But I was so happy that I didn't have to make that decision. So we don't really want more decisions.

[B]

We don't. We really don't. And I think that's the thing about our stuff, too. We walk into our closet, we got 50 shirts we can choose from, and we're like, oh, my gosh, I don't.

[A]

Know what to wear. I'm gonna go buy more.

[B]

The average person makes more than 30,000 decisions a day. What the deuce? Let's make decisions. So the nice thing is when you start to organize, the decision is, do I want this yes or no? It's just a yes, no, yes, no. A lot of people will think, well, I can't organize my pants until I know how many pairs of pants I have. Well, that's silly. You don't need to sort them all into a pants pile. Do you like that pair or not? If the answer is no, why does it matter how many pants you have? If you don't like this pair, it's a go. You don't got to make piles. Friends don't make piles.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Part of that, though, is making that decision, right? And I think with an ADHD brain, certainly for me, I get so. Because my working memory's so bad, stuff helps me remember. It's like a hook. And then I remember the event, which I think is why it is so hard for me to throw away kid stuff.

[B]

Do you know what I love? You are such a classic bee. You are. You're such a little classic bee. So here's the thing about bees. They are more attached to things than any other organizing style. They have a harder time letting go, by far than any other organizing style, and I'll tell you why. One, because they're so visual. When they see something, it invokes a memory and an emotion. So they look at it and it gives them this, like, visceral, like, they're so visual. It's like I have a memory and I have, like, an emotion from. From that. But the other side of their brain is so logical, practical, overthinking, over analyzing that they're also like, well, I could turn that into this, or I could give that to my grandkids one day. Or maybe I'm supposed to do XYZ with that. And I'm so. I can't just donate it because maybe my friend Melissa in Calgary wants it. Or, like, it's bonkers. And then you're tired. You're tired from looking at something because your brain has had a million thoughts. And so the result is, I'm just gonna keep it so I don't have to deal. That is what I see over and over again with bees.

[A]

That is exactly. It, we have all these, you know, the kids old linens and like their own quilts or not. We don't use quilts, comforters, duvet covers, you know, their old clothes, their, you know, hair bows, the, you know, basketball ring from the basketball party that you know, we threw for my son's, I don't know, ninth birthday. And it's just laughable because my husband will be going through this. And I remembered what I was going to say. What I was going to say is, what I tell my husband is don't make me make the decision. Just go, just do it. If I don't know about it, it'll be okay. But I had all of this stuff and you know, we keep it in these big plastic boxes or bins. And my husband looked at me and he said, what are you going to do with all this? And I said to him, well, I'm going to make a coin quilt. Okay. I have never had a quilt, I'm not a quilt person. And he said, you're going to make a quilt, you're going to have time to make a quilt. And I said, no, I'm going to pay someone else to make a quilt. But am I really going to do this?

[B]

No.

[A]

But the, the fear with me is that or the discomfort is that all of those little pieces bring back memories and make me remember something in my kids childhood. But I'm not sure if it's even a positive memory because it's also tinged with sadness because it's no longer. So what do you do in that instance if you don't feel positive emotion? Do you just get rid of it?

[B]

Yeah. And you know what? I think even that is like it's putting too much pressure on you. Here's what you do. You give each family member one, you said a plastic bin. They get one plastic bin, make it big, get the biggest one you can and that's their memory bin. And they only have one per family member. And then what you do is you pick the best of the best. And when the bin is full, it's made the decision for you. Anything that can't fit in the bin you can't keep. So you're picking the best of the best. And what this does is gives you so much peace of mind because you don't have to worry about, well, what if I forget about the special things? And what if, what if I. Because when everything importance mixed with non importance important, now everything's important because you can't say, well, there could be something really amazing in that Bin and I don't have time to go through it all, so everything is important. So you like, kind of have anxiety about letting go of anything because you don't feel safe and you don't feel like your memories are safe and protected, especially with adhd because we're extremely forgetful. So if you've created a cap, like a capsule, a bin to protect, Protect each memory and take time to fill it, you will instantly feel so much better than when you come across those baby clothes and you're like, oh, I'm like, you know what? I've got the best of the best in the bin. It's okay. I know where that is. It's safe, it's protected. I feel good knowing that I've done that and the rest no longer feels important. But if you haven't done that, everything feels important.

[A]

Yeah, it's like photos too. It's just so out of control. And I, I have kind of tried to do what you said on photos, the best of the best, but it's not. It hasn't really been done. And so.

[B]

Yeah, but have you given yourself a limit? Have you just given yourself one bin for photos, Line it with acid free paper and chuck the photos in. Are you trying to, like, put them in an album and get all little B with you? Don't do that. Don't put the B on the shelf and just be like, calm down, be. I'll do it someday when I'm tired. And for now, just shove them in the memory bin and when it's full, it's full. The. The bins. The bad guy, not you. The bin decides when you have too much. You don't have to decide that. You. It's like the waiter picking for you. The bin is picking for you. So it's taking the pressure off you for. Decide what I keep and what I. You can only keep what fits. End story.

[A]

We had fires up here. I'm in Northern California. I think it was 2017. Like, whole communities just were. It looked like they were bombed and we were evacuated twice and everybody else was so stressed out. And I was literally thinking, well, if it all burned to the ground, I wouldn't have to deal with it.

[B]

I felt that way. I felt that way. Like, you know, you, you need, you need to declutter when you kind of secretly hope it all just poofs is gone. But that's a really good question to ask yourself. Like, you. If this like burst into flames, would I buy it again? Would I replace it? Or like, if this had poop on it. This is a good one. If it has poop on it, would I wash it off?

[A]

Yeah, that's a great one.

[B]

And you need rules. As a bee, you do. You need hard rules. Have I. Have I used this in the last year? Do I love it? Love it, love it? Would I replace it if it was gone? And if the answer is no to all three of those, you have to let it go. So hard, firm rules is very, very helpful for a bee because you're overthinking, over analyzing brain. You can just shut it down. You're like, no, I gotta follow the rules.

[A]

So what would the rules be for a closet if you're trying to get rid of. I like certain things in there, but I have literally not worn them in a couple years. Is there, like, you have to wear it within the last year or.

[B]

Well, okay, so as an ADHD or. I hate rules like that because I'm like, I mean, that is the rule. But also, like, we don't like rules. Right? So, like, like that. Here's something that's really actually effective for ADHDers to keep us focused and to stop the decision. Fatigue is choosing a number of things to leave. I personally like a 21 item toss. So you've distracted your brain from, I have to find things I don't like that I haven't worn or is like things that don't blah, fit me, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, nope, you have to find 21 things to go, period. Doesn't matter what it is. Find 21 things. And that changes your brain into turning it into a game. And we love games. And now we're looking. We're like, okay, I gotta find. Oh, I never wear this shirt. Okay. Oh, let me find. That's. That's two. Oh, that's three. Oh, maybe I have some holy socks. Oh, that's four. And then we can pop over to the pants. And then we could like, oh, no, like, I need six more. Oh, I probably have a bathing suit I haven't worn. And now we're not thinking about each individual item and does it fit us and have we worn it? We've turned it into a game. So the 21 item toss is actually extremely effective for people who have ADHD because it makes it fun and it stops us from overthinking, overanalyzing, and making it feel, well, I gotta. I gotta get rid of my stuff. It turns it into a game.

[A]

That is so brilliant because instead of going through everything and thinking, yes, no, yes, no, I am Literally just looking for no's.

[B]

Yes. You're just looking for no's and you leave every. You don't take everything out. No, no, you're just hunting like an Easter egg hunt, except for instead of chocolate, we're looking for stuff that can go. And you can choose your number. It doesn't have to be 21, it can be any number you choose. But I would challenge you to pick a bigger number that it kind of pushes you out of your comfort zone, but not so big that you can't do it in 10, 15 minutes.

[A]

Yeah. Because if you did 10 or 15 minutes of this, I don't know, a couple times a week, I'd probably call my closet down by half, which I should do.

[B]

It feels fun because then you're like, look at all the clothes that are leaving and you've turned it into a game.

[A]

Absolutely. So do you have a personal clutter kryptonite, something you still struggle with despite, you know, like, I mean, obviously I talk about a lot of different ways to reorganize ourselves in our brains, but no matter how much I talk about email, I still have not figured out a way to make it work. So is there something like that for you related to organization?

[B]

Yeah, I have like a lot of things, but. So I think I have like 38,000 emails in my inbox. But here's the great thing. Who cares? Each search, you know what I mean? It's just searchable. One time I got really upset and just selected all and deleted every email in my inbox. That was a mistake. Don't do that. That was a bad idea. But I know. But then I'm like, oh, man, I wish I wouldn't do it. But it's fine. It always works out. But yeah, so I have a ridiculous amount of emails, but again, that's searchable. So I feel like digital clutter is like, it's okay, man, because we can just search it. My big thing is identity clutter. And with that, that is. Is things like that feel like part of my, I don't know, identity. So I'm a crafter and I love crafting. So therefore, every craft supply is hard to let go of because it feels like I'm taking a part of myself. Oh, and book lovers struggle to let. Get let go of books. Yes, because they're a book lover. So it's identity. And the thought of even decluttering one book, even though it's a horrible book and you didn't like it and you didn't even finish reading, reading It. It's very hard. I also love to, like, decorate my home and change it for the seasons. So throw pillows, again, feels like part of my identity. So I have an entire closet for throw pillows. Like a maniac. Like, some sort of. What is wrong with me? It's ridiculous.

[A]

And you know how they get kind of crappy after a while? Like, I don't care how expensive that pillow is. After sitting there for, you know, a year, it just.

[B]

But it's still hard for me to let go of because it's like somehow a throw pill is, like, part of my soul. It's very odd. It's very odd. But this is what happens with identity clutter. And as. As a mother, a lot of parents, they're especially moms, their identity is like, I'm a mom. And so getting rid of baby clothes, baby items, their children's stuff, again, that's. That's identity clutter. So realizing that about yourself and what I tell myself is, I am still a crafter without needing to keep every single craft supply. In fact, I'll be a better crafter when I only have what I have, what I use, what I love, and I'm sharing the rest. This really helps with book lovers. Now, this is. I'm gonna say something mean. You ready? Are you really a book lover if you're not sharing the books with other book lovers that you'll never read again? It's selfish to keep them all and keep them from other people who would love and read them to hoard the books. And if you think of it that way, you're like, oh, yeah, I don't need to have every book to be a book lover. I should be sharing the ones I'll never read again with other book lovers. That makes it feel so. It makes it feel like you want to.

[A]

That's so interesting as far as, you know, connecting that to identity. Because I think with book lovers, too, there's this sense of, I read, right? And so I want all of my books out on full display. And then they start taking over. And they're in every closet. They're on every, you know, bookshelf.

[B]

They're. And it's everything. It's like the. The plant lover has plants all over. This person who likes. Likes, I don't know, peacocks now. Their whole house is filled with peacocks.

[A]

Crystals, whatever.

[B]

It's totally because it's your identity, but we take it too far. And so we need to change the narrative in our brain. That can still be our identity, and we can still love Those things. And that can be part of our being. But we don't need to keep every single thing. We just keep the ones we love the most. Because when everything is special, nothing is special.

[A]

Yeah, I talk about that all the time. But not about stuff, more about, you know, what we do or think we need to do, you know, because we can be all over the place. So I am curious, what is your number one ADHD workaround? Do you have one?

[B]

Yeah. Alarms is my number one. So reminders, reminders, reminders. I use my phone constantly and I will set. If I had this meeting, I had like four different reminders and alarms to remind myself to go to this. So I'm forgetful. That's my biggest struggle. I'm super forgetful. And not only do I remind myself of meetings and appointments, but I remind myself of tasks I want to get done. So I will schedule myself. I'm going to do a task this day and then I'll set reminders to, like, get me primed for the pump that this is coming. I could not live without that. So I have an Alexa in every room. Hope I didn't say that out loud. If other people have it, I apologize because, like, you do this. Yeah, it's annoying. It's annoying. I have alarms that go off all day long, but I, I couldn't live without them.

[A]

Is your husband so happy?

[B]

God, no. I mean, I hope he's happy with me, but he's. He's not so happy because I'm a lot. I am singing show tunes 24 7. It's like, clang, clang, rattle, bing, bang, gonna make my noise all day. And he is very quiet and reserved. And I am like a one woman show. From the moment my eyes open, I'll wake up and just, Just be like, let's do something amazing.

[A]

Are any of your kids like that?

[B]

Oh, God, she's. Yep. My middle one's so annoying. She drives me nuts. But I don't want to say that because I was told I was so annoying. And so I really try to, like, nurture that. We do have a rule. No singing at the dinner table. It is the hardest. That's my husband's rule. It is the hardest thing for the two of us to do just because. Yeah, she's a lot. I'm a lot. The two of us together, it's. It's a lot. But also, like, it's wonderful. I, I now make a living talking, so.

[A]

Yes, exactly. And as I always say. Yeah, you're too much. Well, you tell me who's really made a difference in this world Being too little. Right.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah.

[A]

Cass, where can people find you if they want to know more about you and what you do?

[B]

Yeah. So you can just search Clutterbug. You'll find me on any platform. Social media platform. You can. You like, you can watch my how to videos on YouTube. I'll put out a video every week. So. Yeah. And you can take the free quiz and find your organizing [e-mail] I don't even ask for your email because that's annoying. Just fill out the quiz, discover your style, and get lots of free advice.

[A]

I love that. I'm gonna go take that that quiz just to make sure I'm actually a bee.

[B]

You are a bee. I could. I can smell your be ness through the screen. Yeah.

[A]

Cassandra, thank you so much for spending time with us here today. This was just so much fun.

[B]

Thank you so much for having me.

[A]

So that's what I have for you for this week. If you like this episode with Cassandra, please let us know by leaving a review. You know, our goal is to change the conversation around adhd, helping as many women as we possibly can learn how their ADHD brains work so that they too may discover their amazing strengths. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you here next week. You've been listening to the ADHD for Smartass Women podcast. I'm your host, Tracy Outsuka. Join us at adhdforsmartwomen.com where you can find more information on on my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women and my patented you'd ADHD Brain is a okay system to help you get unstuck and fall in love with your brilliant brain. ADHD is not the problem. The way we've been told to manage it is. If you're tired of feeling stuck, stuck, overwhelmed, or like you're not living up to your potential, I want to help my you. ADHD Brain is a. Ok is a step by step patented program that actually works for ADHD brains like ours. No more forcing yourself into ordinary brain systems that just don't fit. If you're ready to thrive, find the link in the first line of this episode's description. Your brain is brilliant. Let me prove it to you.