← ADHD for Smart Ass Women with Tracy Otsuka
ADHD for Smart Ass Women with Tracy Otsuka
EP. 354: Why Burnout Conversations Fail Without Neurodiversity with Nicole Bela
01:19:27
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- [00:06]
A
Richard Branson, Michael Phelps, Justin Timberlake, James Carville. Wait a minute. Where are the women? Greta Gerwig, Lisa Ling, Audra McDonald, Simone Biles. That sounds like a list of highly successful titans in a variety of industries. They all have adhd, but you don't have to hear much about that now, do you? You know what else you don't hear about are the 43% of people with ADHD who are in excellent mental health. Why aren't we talking about them and what they're doing right? I'm your host, Tracy Adsuka, and that's exactly what we do here. I'm a lawyer, not a doctor, a lifelong student, and now the author of my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women. I'm also a certified ADHD coach and the creator of youf ADHD Brain is okay. A patented system that helps ADHD women just like you get unstuck and fall in love with their brilliant brains. Here we embrace our too muchness and we focus on our strengths. My guests and I credit our ADHD for some of our greatest gifts. And to those who still think they're too much, too impulsive, too scattered, too disorganized, I say no one ever made a difference by being too little. Hi, this is Tracy. Before we start today's episode, I want to tell you about something new that grew out of this community. It's called shift, the next step after everything you're learning here. If this podcast helps you understand your ADHD brain, shift helps you train it in 10 minutes a day. From the start, that was the goal. Make mindset work short enough that your brain would actually do it. ADHD brains, well, we don't need more pressure. We need momentum. 10 minutes feels doable, so you start. And once you start, everything shifts. Over the past year, I coached more than 600 ADHD women through a daily 10 minute every morning program called Blends. Every single day, we practiced thinking better thoughts, regulating our energy, and building stronger identities. When it was over, I chose the sessions that they told me hit hardest and created real change. Their feedback and results shaped everything. And that's how I pulled the hundred best and called them shift. So what exactly is shift? It's a collection of short science based mindset sessions combining affirmations, identity work, breath work, and gratitude, delivered every morning in our brand new app called Aokmind. You just hit play, breathe and train your brain to think, feel and follow through like the person that you're becoming. It's affordable, it's accessible, and right now, you can get $20. Off with the code podcast at checkout. Go to tracyoutsuka.com shift to start today. Because change doesn't come from trying harder. It happens when you shift who you believe. You. Hello, I am your host, Tracy Otsuka. Thank you so much for joining me here for another episode of ADHD for Smartass Women. You know that my purpose is always to show you who you are and then inspire you to be it. In the thousands of ADHD women that I've had the privilege of meeting, I have never met a one, not one that wasn't truly brilliant at something. So, of course, I am just delighted to introduce you to our guest today, Nicole Bella. Nicole Bella is a nonprofit fundraiser and connector who's raised millions of dollars for local and national organizations over the past 15 years. She has a master's degree in social work and is a certified fundraising executive, which basically means that she knows how people work and how fundraising really works. Today, she serves as the director of development at Advance Illinois, a nonprofit pushing for systemic education reform. At 37, right after the birth of her second son, Nicole joined the late diagnosed ADHD women's club. And like so many of us, she went searching for resources that might explain her past and present challenges. What she found instead was a glaring information gap, especially in the fundraising world. So she started sharing her story, first quietly, then more boldly, to make sure that neurodiverse voices are finally part of the conversation around burnout, staff retention, and mental health. When Nicole's not fundraising or amplifying this message, she creates art, sometimes wearable, to spark joy and help others express their authentic selves. Nicole lives in Chicago with her husband, two very high energy young sons, and their dog. Welcome, Nicole. Oh, did I get all of that right?
- [05:56]
B
That was a lot. It's so fun listening to someone give your bio. You did a great job. Really did me justice for that.
- [06:03]
A
You know, we always go back in and we zhuzh it up a little. So, Nicole, before we talk about what it is that you do and why you're here, what I always loved to start with is your ADHD diagnoses story, because it just connects you to our listeners. It allows our listeners to understand what you're about. So can we talk about your ADHD diagnoses first? Can you tell us the story? What happened?
- [06:32]
B
Yeah, no, no. I'm happy to go through this story, and I'm working very hard at trying to, like, how do I make this concise? I have only known that I had ADHD since I was 37. I just turned 40 the other day, which is wild into my new decade. Specifically, I want you to know that I chose to do this session, record it today, because Yesterday was my 40th birthday, and I felt like this was a symbol of my next decade. You know, I wanted to be able to remind myself that I can do big things. In 2022, I had my second son, and he is so cute and so adorable, but it was a really tough year. Me, we had moved back to Chicago the year before from Seattle. Our big plans to move out there and have this new life really shifted with the pandemic. Honestly, if I look back, I really noticed, I think, some of the struggles after I had my first son, but it wasn't as noticeable. I still had the time to work out, right? I still had space for myself to, you know, recharge at times. You know, there was just a lot. And I had a really amazing group that I worked for and a boss that oftentimes would remind me sometimes of what I had to offer, even when I couldn't see it myself. And I think that was supportive for me. We only moved back to Chicago just because we wanted to be closer to the family. We didn't know how much longer the pandemic and no vaccines would go for, so we moved back. I switched jobs. I find out I'm pregnant with my second son. You know, it wasn't the right fit for me at the time. And so, you know, we parted ways, but I just continued to struggle. And I, you know, I started to recognize, like, I think this is more than just, am I anxious? Or this is more than, I've got two kids. You know, I know motherhood is really difficult sometimes, but there was just something else going on that was really causing, I think, some of my struggles.
- [08:29]
A
So when you say that you were struggling, what did that look like?
- [08:33]
B
Forgetting things? I do have a psychology degree. I'm very interested in the human mind, and I do very much know that, you know, sometimes it's hard to decipher between anxiety and adhd, and the two of them often come together. And when your ADHD is not being addressed right, your anxiety can be higher. And I've been working on that, you know, but when I say struggling, it's just like, forgetting things. An increased amount of, like, anxiety that I never really had before. Keeping things on track, organized, like, that's the best way I could describe it. And then struggling even more with the things that weren't interesting to me, to be honest. Like, I think. Think that having kids really Pushed me over the edge, and especially my second, because I used to be an avid runner. I ran three marathons before I had children. I had run 10, 11 half marathons. I was always an athlete, which is, like, really part of my story, that when I look back, I'm like, well, clearly there was something about the reason why that was so good for me. In high school, I was a swimmer, and when I say struggle, I don't think I recognize how much I needed the physical exercise. Then after I had my second child and I found it incredibly difficult. My husband's got a great big job, and he travels a lot. And it was just like, why can everyone else handle this? And I felt like I was drowning, you know, that did continue on for a while, but now that I'm able to really pinpoint now why I'm challenged with certain things or where it's coming from, I've been really focused on, like, okay, if I know this is challenging, then what can I do to support me so that I can be my best self? And it's an ongoing journey, right? So that's really what I mean, mean by it. And I was like, something huge was really taken away from my life, which is that. And now the other thing is this overstimulation is I didn't realize how important it was for me to have quiet time and to recharge because I'm pretty extroverted these days. And I didn't know how important that was going to be to me until I had two children. I was home with both of them. And even now, today, and there's no. You're constantly on the move. You got to remember everything, and then where's the time for yourself? Right? And so I've had to teach myself, learn kind of where my energy levels are, that. And then also learn things like, I'm still working on it. Like, I know I need to wake up earlier before my children, to have quiet and silence before even my husband wakes up. And if I don't get that and my day starts chaotic, the rest of the day feels that way. I'm just not as sharp. I'm not as on top of things. And so these are things that, you know, you're here having this conversation with me, but I'm still working on this stuff. I mean, honestly, we always are.
- [11:25]
A
It doesn't matter right when you get the diagnoses. So I'm curious. It sounds to me like you were totally managing your ADHD using exercise. And we know that 20 minutes at our 70% of our high heart rate is as effective as a course of Adderall and Prozac. Right. So this makes perfect sense. I mean, that's how you were regulating.
- [11:51]
B
Your nervous system back in college. And I was struggling. I would run. And then I started doing yoga. And I found yoga to be just so centering and calming for me. And I don't think I quite put it together until now, why that was so good for me.
- [12:06]
A
You're moving your body. You're doing all those things that, you know, now helps you.
- [12:10]
B
Every year I have a birthday, I want to, like, do something, like, meaningful, right? I'll give you an example when I was 38, and if my friend's listening to this, I hope she enjoys this. Is that we were like, okay, what are we going to do this year? Her birthday's a week before me, and I'm like, let's go get our second ear pierced. And so, like, second ear piercing. So we did that at 38. We just realized two years later that we made an Eric. So we didn't go back to get it taken out, but whatever. Last year, you know, I was really struggling with the, you know, with adhd, not not being open about it and a lot of those kind of things. And it. What actually put me over the edge to make the decision to unmask and to really be more open, whether it's, you know, is it going well? I think so. Was I decided that I wanted to do some coaching for age 39, but, like, career coaching more so, like, trying to understand, take the opportunity to step back and reflect and say, where? You know, remind myself of my values, remind myself of my strengths, look at really crit. Look at what are those areas that there's a reason for why maybe I don't like them. And so I found a really great coach, someone I'd met, like, a decade ago at another organization. Unfortunately, coaching is very expensive, so I couldn't continue. But, you know, that was. Honestly, that was like, my age 39. I was like, this is what I'm gonna do for 39. I mean, I'm gonna enter into a new decade, and I want to have a clearer picture of, like, who is Nicole today? I also ran a marathon.
- [13:41]
A
O. So let's go back to, you know, you're feeling discombobulated, you're forgetting things, you've got more anxiety, you're struggling with organization. And I mean, these are all things you can expect with a second child and a husband who travels a lot. But for you, it was extra. You knew There was something else going on. So what made you actually even consider, or had you considered it was adhd? Did you just go into a doctor, you started talking to them and they said, have you considered adhd? How did that all happen?
- [14:11]
B
This wasn't the first time I'd considered it over a decade ago. And this actually goes with like, the anger I had afterwards. It was like kind of relief, anger, et cetera. Over a decade ago, you know, there were a lot more stressors in my. I think I was getting married or something like that. You know, marriage, planning a wedding is so stressful. But over a decade ago, and I had been struggling a little bit more with like, just remembering and things like that. There was just so much. There was a lot going on in my life at the time. And I remember I used to joke with my two best friends, like, well, maybe it's adhd. Like. And they. You're like, it's possible. Because it was beyond just the not remembering. It was like, I'm very much a. Like, I'm in the middle of talking to you and I saw something interesting and I'm like, wow, did you see that? And, like, forget what I'm talking about. I was always the person that would be like, people were like, wow, it's so interesting to talk to you. But we, like, oftentimes we would never finish what we were talking about. And I just thought that was normal. And I was just like, yeah, we got a lot of things to say we don't need to continue with back eventually, right? I didn't put those things together really for a long time, but I knew there was some weird stuff. Like, it's not normal, Tracy. When I used to teach this, like, Hebrew school class for years. It's not normal that when a door is open, you can't focus on teaching a class. Like, I. I look back at that and I'm like, yeah, that should have been a future sign, right? And then there were other things too, and that made me suspect it, which was taking the acts. I mean, we're talking now about my childhood, but this is connected. Acts. Three different times in. In high school, I had to get a tutor for the math. I mean, I think I overthought them. I thought the math was so much more complicated. And I, like, my mom got me a tutor. Everything like that, I end up with the same score each. Each time. The first two times, I can tell you exactly what was going on in the room that day that made it so that I couldn't focus. And I'M pretty sure I didn't complete half the sections. But you know what? I was smart. In fifth grade, I did so well on the CAT test in Michigan, I got invited to this Michigan talent thing. I forgot what it was called to take the ACT early in 8th grade. Clearly it couldn't have been that I wasn't smart. And we can talk later about this, my deep seated feelings about standardized testing because I went on to college to have almost a 4.0. Clearly the test was not a sign of my future. I remember. So basically over a decade ago, I went to a therapist. I said, I was like, you know, do you think it's possible I have. I have adhd.
- [16:46]
A
Ah, so you were thinking.
- [16:47]
B
I was. But the problem is, is that anxiety and ADHD oftentimes very much look alike. And so I think what was thought at the time was, no, no, you just have generalized anxiety. And I don't mind telling this to the world because I hope other people hear this and feel like, oh, yeah, that's what happened to me. And so this wasn't like this never before scenario. It was like it been in my mind. But I was like, ah, you know, you think about adhd, you think about a little boy bouncing off the wall. I wasn't like that as a kid. I was bouncing off the walls in my head. But like, but not physically. I wasn't physically. And that's where I think the exercise would come in. Was that my energy out? Fast forward 2022. I've had two children. I don't actually have that much time to exercise. I have no time to myself. I am no family support. Right.
- [17:33]
A
And you asked about ADHD and the therapist said, no, no, no, it's just anxiety.
- [17:38]
B
He just kind of passed over. I honestly don't quite remember, but I know for a fact I brought it up. And I don't blame her because what I've learned over the last two years is unfortunately, there's not enough research and information out there when it comes to women and ADHD because of that. Tracy, I wouldn't be shocked if there are a lot of therapists out there that aren't trained to notice it in women, in minorities and things like that. So I don't really per se blame my therapist. It's a strong possibility that at that time a decade ago, it wasn't yet something that was, you know, strongly spoken about.
- [18:11]
A
And Nicole, you had been successful, right? You had been successful in school, you had all these degrees. They look at that. And typically, even today, it's like, no, no, no. I've heard this over and over again. It can't be adhd. You're too smart.
- [18:24]
B
Yeah, And I. I did. I was successful. I always met my goals, whatever. So I couldn't finish a sentence. I mean, a conversation. And I had 5 million ideas at all times, but with the right support, I was very good at executing them.
- [18:41]
A
So what then ended up? How did you get diagnosed, ultimately?
- [18:44]
B
So ultimately, what happened, Tracy, was fast forward 2022. I'm struggling. I have another friend who is the one that actually introduced me to your podcast and your book, by the way, because we got diagnosed around the exact same time. And she's like, my friend just went through this ADHD diagnosis, and she's like, I'm thinking about going to get tested. And then she starts, you know what friends do? Send a video, send this. And I was like, well, that sounds familiar. But I'm like, I'm not. You know, there's this obsession with people, like, TikTok diagnosis, right? And then. But really, what made me make the decision beyond the fact that I just had a baby? So I met my deductible and I could afford the diagnosis was like my favorite thing. Like, basically, she sends me this video, and it was all about auditory processing and adhd. And I was like, mind blown. I was like, wait a second. It's not normal that I need subtitles on TV to focus on it and pay attention. And there were just, like, other things. And I think a lot about the fact that I've always been very intrigued about, like, learning styles. My mom was a teacher, and I was always so intrigued by the idea, like, yes, people learn different. Different ways. Right. It's really important. And this is what's wrong in the education system, because we aren't giving enough space for people and children to learn in different ways. And I. I think a lot about, like, maybe the reason I thought that was because I learned in different ways and I'm very much a visual person. And, you know, I. I do struggle some sometimes at focusing and listening and then processing. And especially if someone's throwing a ton of information at me at the same time. It's like, it's the. It's. And that is. That was one of my core things. I would go to therapy. I was like, when people ask me to do a million things at the same time, it's like I hear them, but it's like I can't process it all at the same time. It resonated and. But it was like, Maybe there are 10 things in the video and nine of them was like, I'm pretty sure they made this video about me, basically. Diagnosis. Yes. The one that I did was more like I had to take a. I had to talk to someone. I had to take a bunch of tests and then they had to talk to someone they that, you know, that I knew that kind of stuff. But the testing part, it was like virtual. And so she was watching me the whole time. And. And at one point I was like, are you testing me because of the test or are you testing how I'm taking this? Because this is so hard to focus on. At one point I answered a question that when I looked at, I was like, that is not true. And it was related to like, it was a question about like suicide, like how you have suicidal thoughts. And I think I had just stopped reading and it was just clicking stuff. And then I noticed it. I was like, oh my God. So at that point I was like, I need to take a pause, get up and walk away and come back. And that's when I was like, I think part of this test might be that you're watching how I am doing this.
- [21:42]
A
Well, if it was the objective testing, like atova and I can't remember what the second one is, there's actually a camera on and it's watching you move around.
- [21:51]
B
Yeah. You asked me about the cfre. This is an interesting thought because there is a lot of question out there of like, how important is. I'm sorry to anyone that I have a CFO of question, like, do I need it? What's it for? What's it doing for me? But when we think about testing and equity when it comes to testing, like, I almost failed the CFE because I was struggling focusing on the questions. And so I tried reading them out loud and then I was told I couldn't do that. I didn't know I had ADHD at the time. Right. I mean, I almost failed. I like my ADHD almost made me fail this year for me. And it was because what I needed, the accommodations I needed to do it weren't allowed unless I had known about it. Right. So one, reading things out loud. And two, I like when I was focusing, I would like cover my mouth. But like they look at that like, are you cheating?
- [22:39]
A
Oh, geez. Oh my gosh. Or even just the ability to get up and down.
- [22:43]
B
Right. You know, I have to understand like you, they have to guard rails for those kind of things. But unfortunately for someone that if like you don't know you have ADHD you know, it was like I had. It was so hard to focus on these big questions because it's like, what. That was the main thing. So that's really how this all came to fruition. And, you know, that was the end of 2022. I actually, I hadn't yet gotten a job. And actually the job I'm in now, I found out right before we were about to leave, we went out of the country for two months and I knew I was gon start this job. I got, had the call with them while I was out of the country and. But at that point there was like, there's nothing you can do. I'm out of the country. I can't do anything.
- [23:25]
A
So you had the call with the people who tested you and they told you you have adhd?
- [23:30]
B
Yeah, so I got diagnosed with adhd. They said I have adhd. I mean, I do have, like, anxiety. I feel like runs in my family.
- [23:37]
A
It's like, I have never met one person with ADHD who doesn't also have some level of anxiety. It's just the way our brains work. Right.
- [23:45]
B
Well, I mean, we can totally get into it, but I am a grandchild of Holocaust survivors. And so there is a lot to be said about generalism generally. Generally, what's it called? You know, anxiety from generation to generation. And, you know, I think resilience is connected to that and all that kind of stuff too. So, you know, in my mind, it was like the anxiety is like, yeah, I mean, it's like a learned thing and it's also genetic and all this kind of stuff. So. Yeah, so they're like, you've combined. And I think that was like the whole mystery piece of it. I was diagnosed with combined. So I, they, they were saying, I'm hyperactive, but I'm also inattentive. And I've done so much reading on this and listening to stuff, trying to understand it. Is that, like. It's part of the reason I think a lot of time girls are not diagnosed is because inattentive is not seen. Or at least back in the day it wasn't. But I was a daydreamer as a child and you know, from the hyperactive. Like, I was shy and reserved as a kid, so that's why it's hard to look back and be like, my mom was like, wait, why you have adhd? You know, but today I am a talker. I could talk to the wall. You know, I've got a lot of things to say and, you know, sometimes struggle with silence. And, you know, sometimes I feel like I just need to get up and, like, bounce around or sing a song.
- [25:12]
A
So what happened, Nicole, when you were diagnosed with adhd, what happened? What changed? Were you. Did you go through grief or were you right away like, oh, my gosh, this explains everything? Or a little bit of both.
- [25:27]
B
It was like a combo. Like, I think I walked into my. My husband was working. We were from in abroad. He was working late at night. Cause it was different hours in Seattle. And I walked in, I was like. Like, oh, my God, I just got this diagnosis. Can you believe it? And, like, at the time, I feel like it might have appeared, like, Nicole's so psyched about this, but that's not really what it was. I think I was kind of in shock. Like, wait, what? And then. And I'm like, well, what does this mean? I was 37. I just had two kids. I. You know, I'd been going through a lot in the last year, and. And then I was like, okay, well, this is very me. I'm like, like, okay, I have to learn about it. What does it mean? Right? What does this mean? What does it explain about myself? And then what am I going to do to change it? I'm very much a. Something's wrong, okay? I'm going to think about what I can do differently and then try to execute on it. The problem that I had when I first found out I had ADHD was like, I tried to fix everything at the same time. And I was convinced that it was something. I'm a fixer naturally, right? I come in, I'm like, I see an issue. I want to. I want to help fix it. And I came in and I tried to take that approach with my own life. I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this differently from a personal level in my home, my relationship, everything. And then, okay, here are the issues that I've had professionally. And I can. I can nick that in the butt. I'm gonna sleep better. I'm gonna exercise more. You know, I'm gonna work really hard. And not interrupting. I'm gonna pause more because I'm like, I'm so super mom. I can do anything. But super mom. Turns out super mom also has. I like to call it my kryptonite, which was that too much Kryptonite brings the superhero down. And it took me a while to get there, but I think it was a combination of a lot of reading that I'd done, a lot of self epiphanies, a lot of struggles, a lot of not, not unmasking, not publicly telling anyone. My boss didn't know I had ADHD until a year into the job. I was just convinced that it was okay. I can do it all. I can do everything. It's totally fine. I can fit everything into my schedule. I can be the perfect mom. I can be, like the most amazing fundraising professional. I'm gonna be a great wife. I'm gonna be a great friend. But you know what happens when you try to do that? It all comes toppling down. I like to say the great epiphany was like, for me, to be honest, was towards the end of last year, and I knew that I needed to slow down. I knew that I had already been learning about a lot of this stuff, and I was already in the midst of unmasking who I was and really trying to connect to my authentic self so that I could return back to what I knew, true to myself. And then I call it like, the great fall down the stairs. I don't know what you want to call it. I was like, we were like, I've been saying to my husband, I got to slow down. I got to slow down. And we were supposed to go to a holiday party that night. I go to pick up my son. I'm like, I have to go get my son dressed. I'm going upstairs, holding a cup of coffee, coming down with my son, and we fall down the stairs. And it was like, that was this moment where I was like, I love my friends and I want to be social, but I have to start saying no. And I knew that. And that was like the moment where I was like, this is the moment that I truly are. I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna lean into that. And it's been difficult because I am a person that just wants to say, I want to be social, I want to be with my friends, I want to connect. But, you know, life's very different with two small children and a full time job. And, you know, you want to believe you can be super mom, but I think the big reminder was like, super mom can only be so super if you also give space and time for yourself and remind yourself a little bit about what makes you truly yourself. Right? So I think that was kind of like my. I don't want to call it a breaking point, but it was like a moment where I was like, yeah, this. Something's got to give, you know?
- [29:33]
A
So, Nicole, you and I were talking about, how did I find you? And as I was sitting here thinking about it, I believe that it one of our students. Her name is also Nicole. She is just one of our bright star students. And I believe she is the one that sent me this article that you had written. And I read it and I was fascinated by it. You wrote it for the association for Fundraising Global, and it's called Unmasking why Neurodiversity Belongs in Fundraising's Mental Health Conversations. And so I am wondering, Nicole, because that's why we have you here, if you could summarize in, oh, I don't know, like a minute what this article was about.
- [30:27]
B
This is all about my diagnosis and my journey, which is basically what I realized was that I had really struggled a lot of time with burnout, right? I struggled with anxiety and all these kind of things, but I was really good at what I did, right? But until I got to a place where it was like something had to give, I wasn't as good. And I was. I was really not the person I remember. And towards the end of last year, I started to kind of put it together that I think one of the main things I'd read this book and they were talking about unmasking and they were talking about acceptance. I think it was. It was. I didn't read it. I listened to. It was amazing. It was called ADHD is Awesome or something like that. It resonated with me enough, and I was in a place at that time where I was like, I think I just need to, like, be honest with people and be honest with myself. Because the reality was, was that I have a lot of strengths for me to offer in the sector and for my career. But what was happening was I was focusing so much on my challenges, right, That I was negating really what the strengths were. And it was burning me. It was causing more anxiety, it was causing more stress, right? I was working extra hard instead of taking a step back and saying, hey, maybe I need to focus on my energy levels, right? Maybe I need to be thinking about not just what are my challenges, but, like, if I can be open and honest about it, then maybe I can advocate for myself, right? And say, hey, you know what? I work best in the morning. I'm sharper in the morning. And maybe we shouldn't have that meeting at 4pm, right? I know that's really difficult for people to do, but, you know, it was a really became a conversation of, you know, leaning into my challenges and understanding them and understanding what I needed differently today than I needed 10 years ago so that I could truly, you know, ensure my strengths became an Asset to what I knew they could be. And so this article was basically a lot to do with my theory around the fundraising and nonprofit sector, truly, which is that, you know, we talk a lot about mental health. I mean, can I say, are we doing a lot? I'm not sure. I think I had people reach out to me about. Well, I've had people reach out to me and to say I don't feel that I've been given the space to unmask in relation to my mental health. And I think that I feel that person that did that is like a very brave thing to say. And you know, what I said to her was that, you know, I don't just. I think we are talking about it, but I. The question is, are we doing enough? It doesn't make a difference if we just talk about it and we talk about staff retention, we talk about burnout, we talk about well being and all these kind of things. If we're not, are we doing the right things? And my theory is this is that, you know, when it comes down to it, masking is such a key piece. And what I've heard from people that are masking is that it's just makes things so much harder. It made it so much harder to try to pretend that I could be this person or fit into this expectations. And so the article is just saying in order for us to truly address workplace, you know, really dress burnout, staff retention is that we need to be including the concept of neurodiversity in the mental health conversation. And that if we can't include that, then we're not gonna be able to truly address things like workplace culture, belonging, retention. I'm not saying that this is the end all, be all and if we just solve the nerd, like make things more neuro inclusive, that we are going to solve the problem in the sector. But it's a factor that I just have not seen being written about or spoken about. Especially in a sector that is so mainly dominated by women and minorities who happen to be the ones that are now being late diagnosed because we were never really part of the conversation a decade plus. And so I guess really where this came from was I read an article in AFP Global back in May and I wrote to them and I said, I just feel like this is missing from the conversation. And they said, would you like to write an article? And here we are, we're discussing it.
- [34:40]
A
So this is so fascinating to me because I don't know anything about fundraising, but when I think about the kinds of People that might be attracted to fundraising. I'm wondering, do you believe that many, if not most people in fundraising are neurodiverse? And can you tell us why you think that?
- [35:03]
B
Okay, I have no true data. I would love. I mean, I, you know, actually through all this, to be honest, I did meet someone who invited me to her dissertation to talk about fundraising burnout. I mean, I been. It's amazing when you open up about, like, and we can talk more about why this is, why it is important to unmask and how it does bring other people into your life and into the conversation. But do I. What do. What are my thoughts on this? My hypothesis, if I were to dig into my, into my research and skills, is my hypothesis is that there are a lot more neurodiverse people in the nonprofit sector. Whether it's the nonprofit sector or the fundraising sector, I'm not 100% sure. But I don't know if anyone's ever truly done a study. And if you have and you're listening to this, please come find me. I'm very intrigued. And the reason that I think this is that the more I've learned about just ADHD or just in general neurodiversity, I am not an expert on things like autism and dyslexia. I know, I know about it. My dad was late diagnosed with dyslexia. And so now when I look back, I'm like, I'm pretty sure he had ADHD as well. You know, there's a lot that not fits. But. But when we think about some of the common factors, one of the big ones that comes to mind is injustice, sensitivity. Right? And people that go into the non profit sector or go into fundraising, there's a part of it where you're doing it because you care. You care about the mission. You want to make a difference. You want to fix things. Right? I mean, that's how I would determine myself. Like, how did. I could never see myself, Tracy, doing something that was not mission focused, that was not, like, supportive of doing something good for the world. Right. I used to tell people I can't go into sales because I wouldn't feel good about selling someone that refrigerator that might, you know, and you cause them to, you know, further dig deeper into their financial problems. That wouldn't make me feel good. What makes me feel good is, you know, helping do something that's like creating change in the world. And beyond just that. I mean, I am. There's a reason why I wrote the article, which is like, I have a really Hard time sitting back and being like, okay, we're all talking about this thing. We've been talking about it for a decade plus. Why? But we're not making any true changes. It feels like. Right. I've been hearing about this since, you know, early on in my career. I've been seeing the patterns. I think that's like one of the things that I've recognized about my ADHD is like. Like, I see the patterns and so do I. Do I think a lot of people have. Or adhd, neurodiverse, whatever. I think there's a strong possibility. I don't know if there's research on it, but it won't shock me. And if that is the case, Tracy. Right. And this brings me to the article. Right. If that is the case, and the reality is a majority of them are masking, and they're masking because they. Because of the stigma that our society creates around things like anything related to neurodiversity. Adhd. Right. What comes to mind, I always say what comes to mind when you think about adhd, Tracy, what's the first thing that comes to mind?
- [38:10]
A
We are mission driven. We cannot do work right. That doesn't allow us to live to our potential and as you said, help other people. But I think the converse to that is a lot of the things that are required. I mean, I don't know a lot about fundraising, but I would assume it's a really high pressure job. Right. You've got to hit your financial goals. If money doesn't come in, this mission that you believe so deeply in is going to stall. I'm assuming it's very relationship driven. Yeah. And so. And so if you don't meet your numbers, I would think turnover can be high. If you're not good at it, you don't know how to do it. You've been told your whole life that your way is the wrong way, that you need to do it their way. And over time, you stop trusting yourself. But here's the truth. You were never the problem. You just have a different brain, which means you need different systems. That's where my six Step patented. Your ADHD brain is a. Okay program comes in, let me help you reconnect with your intuition, trust yourself again and build a life that actually works for you. You've had the answers all along. I'll help you see them. Click the link in the first line of this episode's description to learn more or book a discovery call. Now let's get back to the show.
- [39:42]
B
I think it's more than that. I think there's a lot of, like, what I've heard people talk about and what I really, truly understand is, like, is it's beyond just that. There are a lot of things related to the way the nonprofit sector work, the systems that are built and put into place that make being a fundraiser sometimes that much harder. And, you know, there are big differences between a small and a large nonprofit. Right. And that sometimes can come with the resources that are available there. For years, there was this obsession around, you know, how much you should spend on overhead. And people would. Nonprofits would come out and they'd be like, I spend one cent on the dollar or whatever. I'm making up numbers right now. And I remember seeing this podcast, or it was a TED Talk years ago, and this guy comes out and he's like, what's wrong with the nonprofit sector? I think his name was like, Dan. I can't remember. It was a great. It's a great episode. And I do recommend it, because I recommend it to people. I'm like, this is why I think the way I think is what was wrong with the nonprofit sector is that we create these spaces that it's like, the best thing to invest less in our work. Right? If we can do more with less, then we're like the best nonprofit. Right? And so we're not investing enough in the resource development that ensures that the organization's lights can turn on. Right. That we can pay our nonprofit professional at a living. You know, I'm not staying at a living wage, but, like, that people are getting paid. Okay. And that we're creating spaces so that, you know, I don't know, like, that professional is not burning themselves out trying to help people that are, you know, that are in need. And I. I feel like sometimes I look at that and I'm like, no wonder people are burning out. It's like they don't have enough resources sometimes, right? And so I think, think what often happens in fundraising is that, you know, we don't always think to invest more into that space.
- [41:43]
A
And it's primarily women, right? So women are used to getting paid less, right?
- [41:48]
B
A lot of women, or, you know, at the leadership level, you might see men. I mean, this is what I've, like, talked about. I don't know the percentages, and I might not. I'm not the right person to speak on that. But there are a lot of things about the way fundraising works that I think when I look back, and I'm like, okay, this makes sense. This is. Makes Sense why people are burning out. And it's like a. When we invest time, more time into transactional ways of fundraising versus thinking of it from more of a relationship based, transformational way, right. Then where a lot of people refer to it as like, I feel like I'm on a hamster wheel, right. And that they're just going around and around and around, right. And then doing it over again with the same lack of resources or the same struggles that they had before. And eventually people are like, what am I doing in this field? I mean, I heard it from other people. I've felt it before myself. Right.
- [42:41]
A
So I am sitting here actually feeling badly because I had never thought about what you're saying and I know exactly what you're talking about. Where there was a time, and it probably is still here, where it was always about, well, how much goes to the actual people. And so I think what happens is people then start to think that, well, I'm not going to donate money there because they're not even getting it. And I remember hearing about that all the time, not thinking about, what does it take to run an organization and why wouldn't you pay these people that are so high empathy, that are just as sensitive, that are not concerned about, like they're comfortable with change, they want to make things better, but for some reason, no, they don't get paid their worth because then less goes to ultimately where the end mission is. I had never thought about that. I just. Okay, now I'm going to rethink how I do all of this donation stuff.
- [43:40]
B
Well, I mean, there's been a huge movement, I think, in the last decade. I'm trying to remember there were two organizations that came together and they tried to create a whole campaign about why it's important to be investing in operating expenses. Right. But I remember when I started my career and it was like, okay, if someone's, if an organization is spending, I worked in like donor advice funds, organizations spending more than 25% in operating expenses, well, then they're not financially sound. Right? I'm not saying that was right or wrong, but like the, the lenses that we were putting on that was further building out the problem versus today reminding people that actually, you know, what, general operating support, you know, those types of things, unrestricted funds that oftentimes is what nonprofits need the most because they need the ability to have flexibility, to be agile. Because you never know what's going to happen from a political sphere, a funding sphere. And we are continuously kind of, you know, I guess putting, putting These unrealistic expectations on fundraisers, Right. A development director that needs to do eight different jobs. And we always talk about being in fundraising is about being a jack of all trades. You can do everything.
- [45:00]
A
But it's something you're so great with, with an ADHD brain, right?
- [45:03]
B
So great. But there's a breaking point. It's just like what I said. Super mom has a breaking point.
- [45:08]
A
I was being facetious because we are not. Like, everybody thinks, oh, we're so great at being a jack of all trades, but we really aren't. We need to be in our area of brilliance. Right, Right.
- [45:18]
B
And so by doing that, you're not letting people then really focus on the areas that they are the strongest. And this is really what the article is partially talking about. And this is what I presented last year on, which is this idea that, you know, when it comes to neurodiversity and fundraising, right? Or adhd, whichever one framework you want to take, is that that ultimately we're not superheroes. We really are not. And it took me a while to get to this place because I think initially I was like, no, I am a superhero. And then I wanted to present on, like, neurodiversity as my superpower. And then the more I read about it, the more I recognized that, like, no, actually, that's, like, pretty. And some people really don't feel that way. Right. Some people see it as a disability. And I heard this woman say to me, like, I feel like it's deep a disability, but only because society has made it a disability for me. And this was someone that spoke to me a while ago when I was trying to write this article about. She spoke to me about ADHD diagnosis. She spoke to me about potential autism diagnosis, but not wanting to actually officially get diagnosed because of the stigma that it creates. Right. So in doing that, she can't advocate for what she truly needs, because no one truly knows what she's truly going like. She's masking these pieces of herself that if she could unmask and be honest with the world about, hey, this is who I am, this is what I'm struggling with, that then she can ask for the supports that she needs and to advocate and then talk to others about, you know, how do we meet each other in the middle so that we can collaborate and we can work better together. Right? And I think this is what the struggle is, is that we're creating these spaces where people feel that they have to hide these things. Right? I felt that way. I felt I had to hide It. And I understand Tracy as well. I'm very. I take a step back sometimes I'm like, I feel like privileged that I had the ability. And maybe. Maybe it was kind of sometimes, like, was that stupid that I, like, came out and just told. I was like, I had an ADHD coming out moment. Hi, everyone. My name is Nicole. You worked with me for a while and, oh, by the way, I've been hiding. I have adhd. And, oh, my God, this feels so much better. And. And since then, I've been able to really be open about, hey, like, I'm really struggling with time management, Right.
- [47:36]
A
How was that received when you came out about your adhd?
- [47:41]
B
I think it was received. I think we were like, okay. Actually, one I told one of my colleagues, like, I have this big thing to tell you. And I was like, okay, turns out I have adhd. And then I was, like, waiting for her to be like, oh, now it makes sense. And she, like, didn't. And I was like, oh, okay. And I think part of it was, like, in the coming out process of it was like, a lot of times it felt like I want so badly wanted to be able to tell someone, like, I respect your time. I respect you. I'm just really struggling with executive functioning. And by not being able to say that out loud and to be honest, right. I felt like people didn't truly understand me and, like, made their own assumptions, right? When I would get a name wrong or I'd get a pronoun wrong because my mind is going a mile a minute, I can't slow it down, right? And it was embarrassing. It was shameful for me. I mean, I like to tell people, like, you don't need to shame me. I shame myself secretly all the time for all of us. And so it's like, this is the struggle. And, you know, when you're not open about it, you're keeping it to yourself internally. And this goes back to why neurodiversity needs to be part of the mental health and burnout conversation, because the two are interconnected. If you're having a problem with mental health in your organization and your staff, I want you to then go take a look. How many of them are nerd averse? I'm serious, because, well, I don't have anything to prove this. Anxiety, ocd, all those. I'm trying to think of, like, other stuff. Depression. When you're masking OCD wasn't the right one. I was thinking anxiety and depression, right? When you are masking to try to fit into what the workplace culture is, the workplace norms, societal norms of what professionalism is. Don't interrupt people. Don't talk too much. Don't take up too much space. Don't have too many ideas. Right. Be on time. Right. Flexibility not accepted. I'm fortunate that I do have flexibility. And, you know, if my boss is listening to this, thank you so much. I appreciate you. But, you know, you know, even things like the overhead lights, I realized it took me a while to figure this out. Why do I like my colleague's office more than I like my office? Well, she turns her lights off and she uses a lamp. And so that's what I do. Sometimes people forget I'm there. But you know what? It allows me to stay focused and not overstimulated during the day. And so these are the conversations that can happen when we create a space that someone can come out and say, I'm struggling. Hey, I have dyslexia. I need to receive the reading far in advance. And not just something that, okay, I just tell the head of the organization, but something that I can tell my colleagues, hey, like, I just want you to know. Like, this is something I really struggle with. I want you to know why I need this. Right? Almost like, for. For months, I had this thing in my. In my house because I wanted to remind myself, ADHD is not an excuse. It's an explanation. Sometimes I feel like I spit things out and, like, I feel like I should have, like, a resource behind it, but I'm like, I've just read so many things that just sticks in my. Without the ability to be able to explain, without the ability, Tracy, to be able to say, hey, I really respect your time. I just am really bad at staying on track in a conversation sometimes. Or I'm really bad at keeping the agenda. I need a timekeeper. I just hired in someone new, and I told her this upfront. I was really upfront. I said. I said, I need. I know that it's important for people to stay on task and on time. I just need someone to support me and remind me, you mean we have 10 minutes left, 5 minutes left, right? And then if I need more time, I'm going to ask for permission. And if we don't have it, we'll figure something out. But I'm going to try my hardest. I get gold stars if I keep us on time and on track. When we end early, you know, that's one of them. And then the other is, okay, it's not just bring this up to start having the conversation in the relation to workplace culture. Right. It's related to things like di. Inclusion. Right. What's the common factor? The common factor is belonging. Right. Someone doesn't feel like they belong because they feel like they can't be who they are or they're who they are is not accepted. And they're gonna feel that way if they're hiding who they are. Right. I recognize, and this has been an epiphany for me is like, when I started to understand the concept of masking. Tracy. What I also started to recognize is all the other way ways you could be masking. Right. And I had a colleague that brought this up to me at one point. And I think it's okay that I say this because, well, I'll just be cautious how I say this. Just the idea of, like, it's not just about masking whether I have neurodiversity, but masking other things. Am I masking, you know, not letting people know what religion I have or trying to be like, it's okay, schedule things over my high holidays, it's not a big deal because no one else does. Or I just can't talk about certain things because no one else here is going to understand it. Or, you know, I recognize the privilege I also have. Like, I'm a woman, I'm a minority. I'm a white woman, though. So there's a piece that I'm not going to have to experience compared to others. Right. And with epiphany, I started to recognize was like, it's the reason why this is important, because it's not just about, are you masking your neurodiversity? But it's like the intersectionality between the other ways you could be masking. And it's what brought me to why I decided to make a choice. Like, I was struggling. I was like, there's other areas of my life that I feel like I can't bring to the table. But what I can bring out and to be open about was, like, was that I have adhd, and here's where my challenges are, and here's where I could use support. And I want to support others that feel that way too. I want to create a space where people don't just talk about inclusion. Right. Or dei, but that people can actually come out and, like, be open about what their struggles are. Right. That's how we create belonging, and that's how we create inclusion. And I felt I was a leader at this organization. I felt like I was lying to myself. I was lying to others. Right? And it was only making my life more difficult because I couldn't be authentic to who Nicole Bella is, right? I'm quirky. I'm kind of weird. I just admitted the other day at the office that. That actually I like to make up songs, and I break out into song all the time. They all looked at me like, wait, who are you? I'm like, you just don't know this part about myself, you know, I love to make up a good song. I feel like I'm teaching my children improv at all times, and. And it allows me to just feel this, like, pressure off of me that, like, I'm just gonna be this weird self that I am. I'm not gonna apologize. I'm like, you know, that kind of kind of stuff. But to do, like, the belonging piece is so key. The inclusion piece is so key. But to do that, you have to create space for people to take off their mask and say, this is who I am. And not just take off their mask say, this is who I am. Here's where my challenges are, and here's where I could use support.
- [55:04]
A
And aren't they going to be the best that they can be in that role if they feel safe, right? If they're. Because when we feel dysregulated, when our nervous system's all over the place, we can't do good work, right? We can only do our best work when we actually feel safe. It makes so much sense.
- [55:27]
B
I'm gonna tell you this. This is, like. I call it, like, my journey of healing. In the year before, I decided to just, like, come out to the world and, like my employee, all this kind of stuff, and say, hey, I just want you to know, like, I have adhd, and these are the things I've been struggling with. I was feeling that. I was like, now I have something to name it with. I'm like, nervous system dysregulation, right? And I was struggling with pausing. I was struggling with taking, like, I couldn't pause. And by not pausing, I wasn't quite listening. I wasn't being the fundraiser that has made me successful, and I didn't feel sharp, right? So by being able to, like, I'm going to take my mask off, right? I'm going to be honest about my struggles. I'm going to be who I am, right? I'm going to lean into the things that made me successful before. I need process, I need system, right? Because I forget stuff, and it's harder than it's ever been before. But if I try to Pretend I don't need those things or those things are important. Well, I can't be as good at the job that I have, right? There's a reason why I like CRM systems and I like keeping notes. Notes. Because as much as it might appear sometimes that I remember all these details, I probably took notes on it, to be honest, because I can never remember the thing that feels so important. But I'll always remember, to be honest. I will. Tell me about your cat. Were you telling me about some other weird thing not related to something important? I'm going to remember that, Tracy. But maybe that is what's made me successful in fundraising. People like to be like. Be like, wow, you really listening to me? But I was struggling with listening because I was so dysregulated and I felt like I was hiding this thing. And since then, I felt that I've been able to be more honest. I'm not sure if it's going well. I think it is been more authentic to who I am, authentic to what I need personally to succeed so I can be a better manager. And I've always been one to say that, like, leaders need to lead by example, right? And I think the missing Pedens equation is it's not enough to say, it's okay, you can talk about this, you can talk about this, right? But ultimately, there's still going to be a power dynamic and people are not going to feel comfortable. And so at the time that I came out and I was like, hi, everyone, I have adhd. For me, it felt like, this is how I'm going to lead by example. This is how I'm going to be a leader is like, I'm going to be. Be open. I'm going to face the repercussions about it. I don't know what they are. And then maybe, and it hasn't been as, like, great as in the fairy tale in my head, but, like, maybe it will open up space for others to say, like, actually, yeah, I'm feeling really anxious, or, hey, you know, I have ADHD too, or, like, you know, it turns out I have a late diagnosis of whatever. I had this dream that, like, all of a sudden, like, everyone would come out and tell me it didn't quite go like that, but I did. When I think back, I did have people. Either they secretly came to, said something to me, or, you know, they. They told me in passing. Being open about this has actually brought the most interesting conversations to my space. I love to connect and bring people together. And by being so Open about this in the fundraising sector. I've just met so many other fundraisers. So this is, goes back to my theory. The number of fundraisers I've met who have either said to me I have ADHD or I'm late diagnosed female fundraisers, or they say to me, I think I might have adhd. Right, it's totally possible. I mean, and so that's really like, it's kind of. I don't know if I'm bringing this together well, because this is part of like the struggle I have with ADHD is like how I have so much in my head and I'm trying to bring it together.
- [59:12]
A
So actually I think you're great at it. So what is something that leaders could change tomorrow, do you think? Like one of the most important things to make the work more sustainable, to allow. I mean, we know that everyone with ADHD is brilliant, not good, not great, brilliant at something. And so if that's what you want to get from your employee, what is one thing that you could change to make the work more sustainable, to bring that out in that person?
- [59:44]
B
I'll be honest, I'm not an expert per se in terms of like, I often think about why don't I want a PhD? I do read a lot, so I feel like if you. I could get a PhD from everything I've read, like maybe I'd get an honorary one, but. But what could leaders do? So what I'll tell you one of the things that I try to do and whether I'm successful, if my employee listens to the this, she come back and tell me, no, Nicole, that really didn't do it. But I, when I went to hire this time around, I took a real deep seated look at how we were talking about expectations and what was needed to be successful in the role. And I reworked some of the language and some of that for me were certain things like attention to detail. And I think there's something like time management or organized. And when I thought about it, I was like, well, is it that we need you to be so type A and detail oriented and be able to manage your time, like how we want you to manage your time? Or is it that really what I want to know is you have spent some reflection in time and understanding what your true challenges are. You can communicate them with me and we can work together to figure out a solution so that we can really ensure that we are navigating your strengths. Right. And so I changed some of the language to be more about not time management, but like that you know what works best for you. Right. That you know the systems that make you succeed and that you can communicate them. But that's hard too. I mean, that's like, am I being inclusive enough? I don't know. Right.
- [61:26]
A
So you're basically putting the onus on them to figure out how they best can meet your needs. If your premise is that we need to be who we really are to shine and to do our best work, I think that actually makes a lot of sense. You tell me you know what works for you and then I'll figure out does that work for me too.
- [61:48]
B
You're right. Okay. This actually fits with what you're saying. You're right. Absolutely. Which is comes back to something idea that is like it's not about what you think is the best process or the best way to do things. Right. Tracy. It's about do they know what works best so that they can deliver. And if it's not the way that you work and it's not the way that you process, that's okay because that's how we're going to be more successful. I think I read a whole bunch of studies and I think I wrote about it in the article is that. And I read a really interesting book book. And I, I feel like I want to or listen to part of it all about neuro inclusion as a competitive advantage. And I think I kind of like use that language in here because there's all this feature that does show it not for say, the nonprofit sector, but places like Microsoft, Amazon that show that when we create neuro inclusive spaces that allow people to say, this is how I work, this is how I do. The lights are bothering me, it's too noisy. Right. And create workplace environments where people can succeed. You're gonna be more successful. Right?
- [62:56]
A
Makes sense. Because they all feel safer and comfortable.
- [62:59]
B
I mean, this is like, what can leaders do, right? Have those conversations, right. I've been open with my boss about like, hey, actually I'm realizing like I wasn't joking when I said like, I really, I'm struggling after 3pm my brain stops working. I joke about it, but I'm actually pretty serious. Like I'm pretty much sharper in the morning. If we want to have a strategic important conversation, it's going to go over better in person and before 2pm Right. And I think that epiphany came was I met this woman last year. She was working on a presentation with me and she ended up not being able to do it. But she's such good, important Insights. And if you're listening to this, I do appreciate it. I think I've told her this earlier. Ready? But is that this recognition that it's. It's about. It's not about what worked for you 10 years ago or a week ago or a month ago. It's about having the space in place to say, hey, what works for me today? Because then, not because that was what my challenge was. Tracy. I tried to make myself work in a way that didn't work for me today, and I was burnt out. I mean, I've been telling them, like, I feel like I, like, broke my nervous system, and I'm on a whole nervous system journey. I feel sometimes I want to be a monk, like, meditating on top of a mountain. I've. You know, I've taken a break from running. I love running, but I. Hey, listen, sometimes the answer is not a marathon. When you have two tiny children and you're already totally dysregulated. I'm glad I did it, though. But lesson learned.
- [64:32]
A
And maybe it was the extreme nature of the running.
- [64:35]
B
Right.
- [64:36]
A
That we always. This is our personality, though. It's like, more bigger, better change. And sometimes it's too much at that time.
- [64:44]
B
You know, it's funny because people are like, what? It's so amazing you ran this. And I'm like, I know, I know, but this is so my personality to be like, okay, let me find five things wrong with it. Or, like, I could do that better next time. About.
- [64:57]
A
We had a short conversation on how you felt like everything sort of came to a head with COVID and you really started to struggle, and you discovered that you don't do well on Zoom. I hate Zoom. I agree with you. So talk to me about how you had that realization, and what have you done about it?
- [65:21]
B
I can't promise you that I've solved it, but I do joke sometimes. I wish I could mute myself in real time, like, in real life. Like, okay, just like on Zoom, I'm gonna mute. I won't come back on until I've raised my hand. Okay. So there were some things that came out of post pandemic when I started. Like, when I switched jobs and then into this job, I wasn't putting together, like, and this is me. Like, I'll see. My husband used to say, I see patterns. I'm like, I think I see the patterns too. Like, I'm putting it together, the connections. And people used to always say, when Nicole gets in person, she's great. I close the gifts. I'd have the con. I figure out what, what, who, their best friend's name. I mean, like, I'm really good. My husband used to be like, be careful, Nicole. Find out your Social Security number and you won't even know what happened. I was good until I was totally dysregulated for a period of time, I was very good. I never found out anyone's Social Security number. But I, I, you know, I did memorize my husband's credit card number and all this other kind of stuff. Stuff I remember. You lie. Like, it was like this talent. But then Covid hits, right? And we go totally virtual. Well, prior to that, it was like an anomaly if you were virtual with a donor or a funder. It really just didn't happen. When we all went virtual, the big conversation, the fundraising sector was, you know, it was not about what we closed, but how we. Like the way you could close. A gift started to shift and to change, and it allowed you to. There's so many factors, right? All of a sudden now I can have 10 meetings instead of two, right? Or whatever. Two. You could maybe fit three meetings in a day. And it's really good day, right? So now I can have a meeting after meeting after meeting. Well, is that actually good for you? Right? You're switching your brain over and over and over again. There's a lot of research that actually shows that, like, actually you can multitask. You. You're switching. And by the way, you switch, the more exhausted it makes you. And for someone that is neurodiverse or has adhd, and this is what I'm saying, it's. It's not that other people aren't burning out that are neurotypical. It's just that the. The combination of all these different factors for a neurodiverse individual, right. It is that much more exhausting, and it burns them out that much faster. Like, there was some. Someone I met last year who talked about that, and I was like, oh, my God.
- [67:42]
A
Yeah.
- [67:42]
B
Yes. So how did I figure this out? I was struggling. I kept getting in trouble for, like, nicole, you're interrupting. Or, Nicole, you're talking too much. And the thing is, like, I didn't know how to fix it. I was like, okay, what can I do differently, right? And I was really hard on myself. Like, for anyone out there that's listening to this, it's not like, I felt good. I'm like. I was like, why can't I get this right? It was frustrating. I was like, I need to learn to pause more. Like, it was just so many different things. Then one day, after I'd finally told the whole world about my diagnosis, I was talking to a colleague, and this colleague told me that during COVID it felt like I lost a sixth sense. And that sixth sense was that when we weren't in person, it was harder to read the room. And it was harder to know when someone stopped talking or to pause. And you realize, is that just because you, like, zoomed into zoom, and all of a sudden everything's virtual? Nobody taught you how to navigate that space. And I think it's beyond just like, okay, learning to navigate it, but that for someone that might be neurodiverse, that does better in, you know, with people or. Or like, I am. I used to always say, like, people, like, get me going live. It gives me energy. I build off the energy. But I also read people's energy better in person, right? And it was like, all of a sudden, it clicked. It was like, literally last fall, it clicked. And I was like. Like, oh, my gosh, this is my problem. I was like, I just am not doing as well on zoom, you know? So I started doing things like this, which, honestly, it turns out people were doing this all along. I just didn't know it was important, which is like turning my picture off. So I'm only looking at the person, right? Muting myself until I was sure someone was done talking. It's not perfect, but, like, that. That was really it. It was like. And I. I agree, it was like a sense was lost, something that. Like, I think part of it is that when you have ADHD or even, I'm sure someone with maybe autism, it's like you have to teach yourself sometimes to read the room better or to navigate the social norms that tell you, don't interrupt, make sure you know that they're done speaking. And I could do that in person, and I could read people's energy in person, but you can't get the same energy feel over zoom. And the world had become totally virtual. And, you know, I look back and like, well, no wonder I was flailing, you know? And I don't know if other people are going to listen to this. And maybe it's an epiphany for them or they're realizing it as well, but the world of virtual just made things a little bit more difficult. And to be honest, once I made that epiphany, Tracy, I started to. I call it the 2025 commitment, which was, if you'll meet me in person, I'd prefer that. And so I always offer to finders or donors. Like, if I, if I'm able to, I'll be like, okay, we can meet virtual, but I'd love to meet you in person because it's just a much better way to connect.
- [70:45]
A
Well, especially for what you do, Right. If your goal is to build relationships and connection, it is so much easier to do that in person.
- [70:54]
B
It totally is. Yeah. I mean, people can do it over zoom, but I mean, like, more power to them. I don't know.
- [71:00]
A
Okay, so I'm afraid to ask you this last question, but I have to. So I am curious, in this political environment where we are literally canceling funding for cancer research, how's it going in the whole fundraising community?
- [71:18]
B
I mean, I want to be cautious about how I speak about it because, you know, I. I do work for nonprofit. And I also want to just be cautious, like, you know, I'm not here to represent them. But. So how is it going? You know, I'm fortunate. I don't work for a place that is receiving state federal funding, but our work is 100% being impacted by the constant changes. I mean, we had to, you know, we added on an additional work stream so that, that we could be focusing on how does this impact statewide education. But a lot of our partners are suffering. A lot of partners are suffering. And I have heard about organizations that are. And this goes back to the burnout conversation in a moment that you need your fundraisers the most organizations have had to make cuts and they are cutting marketing, they're cutting fundraising. Right. And the reality is this, from what I'm understanding about as, like I've read about and listened to in relation to funding in the sector, no matter what we do in the private funding space, it's never going to be enough to make up for lost funding from the government. And I hope no one's listening to this and is mad about me saying this, but I don't think they are. Is. And I'm not taking any political stance on this, but the reality is, is that governmental funding is important to support our social services. And when we take that away, it means that we're taking away services and we're taking away institutions that allow people to thrive. Right. And that could be a whole other soapbox conversation with you, but this isn't the first time I've seen this. There was a point in time in Illinois that we had had trouble passing a budget. It was like years ago when I lived here. I'm not from Illinois, but I remember sitting in on this conversation with a whole Bunch of other nonprofits. And I remember also the time thinking like, thank God we don't receive government funding because we would be totally in a hole right now. Because what happens is that when you depend so solely on it and that government funding doesn't come, you. You can't pay your employees, you can't provide services to your young families. Right. And people were talking about closing mental health facilities. They were talking about whole closing transitional homes because they couldn't afford to pay their staff anymore and keep up. Right. And that's why I got back to. I talked to you about operational expenses. Well, how do you think those services are going to happen if you don't have the funding to do it? Right. Obviously there's more to this and there are people that can probably, probably speak more intellectually about it. But the reality is, is that the way that our social service and our nonprofit sector works is dependent on both the private sector and the government. Right. And without the both of those. Right. Then organizations can't thrive. And the point of the nonprofit sector to social services, to support, to be a safety net for places that the government can't be there. And so when we decrease that safety net. Right. It's almost like the sure side, like we're not investing in the future. Right. When we take away from education, I always have had this. Like, this is me, Nicole, personally saying this. I mean, I studied social and economic development, but it's like when there's a crisis and we take money away from education, we are taking away from the future of students and families in this state. Education, health, poverty, the three of those are interconnected. And when we take away from one of them, we're impacting the other. And so years from now, when you look back and you're wondering why your economy is struggling, maybe I should be cautious of what I'm saying. You know, I know it's more complicated than this, to be honest.
- [75:15]
A
Why would you want an uneducated population?
- [75:19]
B
I don't know if that is what they want. I think there's a question. There's a constant back and forth in the States. And this has to do with the way that our philanthropic sector was created. Right. And the way that our government, you know, the way America is. Right. Is this conversation of individual versus group, should the government be ingrained in the people's life or should they not be ingrained in the people's life? The way. Way that our nonprofit sector today, Tracy, is built out is related to the fact that we have charitable tax deductions. Things like that, so that we can put it on the people to make those decisions on where their charitable dollars should go, how they're going to help people. And it's been a constant back and forth between put money into the social sector, take money out of the social sector. Right. Depending on who's in power. And today I think it's okay to say this. Like, we are incredibly politically divided. And I think what we're seeing in so many different places is that political divide is really taking a toll on people and their mental health. Right. On the education that's available to them, their actual health. Right. And these issues that we continue to face and to work on. I'm not sure we're getting anywhere with them.
- [76:44]
A
I don't understand how we've gotten to a place where literally cancer research has become political. I mean, doesn't that benefit everyone? And ultimately, what we don't put in today, we're going to be pulling out later and we're going to be paying for it in even greater dollars. So it just. I am so appreciative for what you do, and I'm really grateful that you decided to. You agreed to come here and talk to us. And I would love to know where people can find you if they want to know more about you or they have questions for you.
- [77:23]
B
Yeah, I mean, you can find me on LinkedIn. I actually do have a thing with LinkedIn. I do love to connect with people. And I joke now that it's like my secret source of, like, if I find someone interesting, I might reach out. I like to reach out to people and be like, I find what your work is doing is super interesting. Or I resonated.
- [77:40]
A
Okay, so they find you on LinkedIn. And what is your handle there, Nicole Bella? I believe we'll have the link in the show notes. Well, Nicole, thank you so much for spending time with us here today. I again, really appreciate it. So that's what I have for you for this week. If you like this episode with Nicole, please let us know by leaving a review. Our goal is to change the conversation around adhd, helping as many women as we possibly can learn how their ADHD brains work so that they too may discover their amazing strengths. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you here next week. You've been listening to the ADHD for Smartass Women podcast. I'm your host, Tracy Outsuka. Join us at adhd for smart women.com where you can find more information on my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women. And my patented you'd ADHD brain is a okay system to help you get unstuck and fall in love with your brilliant brain. If this episode hit home, don't just stop here. ADHD doesn't have to be a struggle. It can actually be your greatest strength when you learn how to work with it. That's exactly what I teach inside our patented your ADHD brain is a OK academy. So if you're ready to stop fighting your brain and start using it to your advantage, look for the link in the the first line of this episode's description. The sooner you start, the sooner life gets easier.