Kiersten Lyons (5:38)

Yes, I do want to make it did beep out for me. So just in case it beeped out for anybody else. Yes, he did win $100,000 like and he had a trust fund and I was working three jobs to pay rent. So I feel like that is a really important part.

Tracy Otsuka (5:55)

We're going to talk about adhd, your diagnoses. I always start there. But I have to know, does he know about this book?

Kiersten Lyons (6:02)

I have no idea, but I would assume so. I mean, I will say this was 16 years ago. I actually signed the book deal. I am not kidding. I signed the book deal 15 years to the day. He told me that he did not love me and that he cheated and all this stuff. So it is pretty, pretty remarkable. I don't know. We have not spoken or, you know, communicated in A very, very, very long time. We have mutual friends, I would assume, so I can't imagine he wouldn't. But it's very fascinating that I'm here. I'm so excited to be here because your podcast is just delightful and I just discovered it and I'm so excited. But I was actually in a pre interview two weeks ago with that I ultimately passed on.

Tracy Otsuka (6:44)

And.

Kiersten Lyons (6:44)

And the reason I say this is because they wanted to focus on this revenge narrative. Like, you're writing this book. And I'm like, that's not what this book is at all. I don't absolve him of what he did, but I forgive him and I wish him well. Like, I don't want to hold that. And it was so fascinating and so getting to hear your. This podcast. I was so excited because I was like, this is who I want to be speaking to. Like, I want to be speaking to people that understand that life doesn't always look like what it. What we hope it will. But, like, there's so much goodness to be found and also acknowledging that it's hard. Right? Like, both can be true at the same time. And so I passed anyway. It was not the narrative that they were trying to create a very different story of my life than I wanted.

Tracy Otsuka (7:27)

All of these experiences, you know, I don't believe in failure. So you either get what you want or you learn something that you needed to learn even more.

Kiersten Lyons (7:36)

Right.

Tracy Otsuka (7:36)

So it turns out better. Okay, but before we go there, because we're going to go there, I want to know about your ADHD diagnoses. Tell me the story. How did it happen?

Kiersten Lyons (7:49)

So it was always a running joke in our family that we have adhd. At first it was ADD the whole family. It was. It's just like we're, we're. My mom is bipolar. My mom has like OCD and all these things. My brother couldn't stop throwing balls and, like, we couldn't all stop talking. And, you know, so it was all kind of a running joke. But it was never actually like anybody ever thought to go get diagnosed. It never even crossed my mind that I actually had it because like many of your guests and like many women that are late diagnosed, I was high achieving, I was eldest daughter, I was taking care of everybody. I was getting good grades, all this, you know, so it never truly crossed my mind as an actual diagnosis for me. And then we adopted our son five years ago. He came into our family five years ago, and about two and a half to three years ago, we started on the path of looking for him him for support and diagnoses for him. And so at the same time, my cousin, who I asked her if I could share this and she said yes. My cousin, who's my best friend, she got diagnosed with adhd. And she's telling me about it, and, you know, the algorithm is listening, and I'm starting to get videos on TikTok and Instagram about, like, ADHD. And I'm like, wait a second, that's me and that's my mom and that's my dad, and that's like, almost every one of my siblings, like, what is happening? But it felt, like, very profound for me because it was like, oh, no, I never. I'm not the kid that's running around in circles, which is what I thought that's what it was. My brain is running around in circles and my feelings are running around in circles. And so my cousin is like, sharing some of the reasons. And one of the reasons she didn't get diagnosed when she was younger. She had an iep, she had some learning disabilities, and she didn't understand the questions that they were asking her in the form that, like, so then when she finally did get diagnosed, the psychiatrist was like, no, that. That's ADHD in women. And so I'm hearing her story, and I'm also advocating for my son. And in this whole thing, I'm like, I think I have adhd. Like, the funniest things, like cabinets being left open, sitting on the floor, erasing thoughts, incredibly big feelings. Just like everything is checking off. And so my son is now. We're about a year into the process, and we had waited eight months to get him with this one doctor that we had been told, wait for her, wait for her, wait for her. And God, I'm so grateful we did because she was incredible and saw my son and saw our family in such a beautiful way. And, you know, we'd had the pre. Pre chats and everything. We're in the evaluation room and my son is with some different specialists. She's like, so, mom, how are you doing? And I'm like, I'm great. She goes, how you doing? And I go, I think I have adhd. She goes, oh, you have raging adhd? She was like, but I can't diagnose you. I'm pediatric. We're going to find you someone, Cam. She goes, you remind me so much of myself. She was like, such, like the go getter. And, you know, all these different things, but my gosh, you have it. And so about a month Later I started getting working on diagnosis for myself. And it was really fascinating because the doctor said, you have so many workarounds and you've managed to mask for so long. He was like, it's actually fascinating. He's like, you're fascinating. Because he was like, it is really. You don't score in a lot of these ways like you do. But then the more we uncover and we like peel back those layers, he's like, oh, you're very.

Tracy Otsuka (11:23)

ADHD built systems around whatever the symptoms were.

Kiersten Lyons (11:28)

I mean, my biggest system is, I'm going to be honest with my husband. And it was so funny because as this is going on, I go, bradley, I have adhd. He goes, yeah, I thought we always knew. And I was like, what? Honestly, it's been almost two years since I got diagnosed and I feel so seen. I feel so seen. And like, I don't feel crazy anymore.

Tracy Otsuka (11:49)

And so I wonder too. So did you say your mother was diagnosed with bipolar or she actually just.

Kiersten Lyons (11:55)

No, no, she's diagnosed with bipolar and absolutely has adhd. She had two. And I talk about it in the book. She, when I was a child, had two psychotic breaks that she needed to be hospitalized for. And it was interesting because at first they thought it was postpartum. Cause it was right after I had surprised twin sisters. Then they realized she has a couple other different things that definitely adhd, she's definitely neurodivergent. I think both my parents are.

Tracy Otsuka (12:20)

Does she have trauma?

Kiersten Lyons (12:21)

Yes and no. It's really fascinating. But she's the biggest gift. There's so many gifts my parents gave me had so much trauma because life. But one of the biggest gifts my parents gave me is they were so open about talking about mental health. It was never a shameful thing. And there were so many women in our, like our community of parents and stuff that had psychotic breaks after my mom did. And my mom was the person they all came to to talk to. She never shamed herself or shamed other people. And I feel so grateful for that because I grew up in a home that I at least felt really safe to at least talk about that kind of stuff, process it. Now, I don't know if I was always safe to feel my feelings, but I definitely was safe to process it. So I was really good at processing.

Tracy Otsuka (13:05)

It also sounds like you had all this stuff going on and you have your mother, right? And same sex parent is usually the parent that you know is the most impactful in our life. And so I could see that you would think, oh, my Gosh. Well, if my mom has all these things, well, I must have all these things too. Not understanding that. Maybe you do have other things as well. But the foundation is really ADHD and how your brain, you know, it just does not shut off.

Kiersten Lyons (13:34)

Yes, yes. And I think what's so fascinating to me, and I do struggle with depression and anxiety, but it's not the same that my mom has. And it is really fascinating to me. The more I've learned about adhd, the more I've been like, oh, oh, okay. So that anxiety is coupled and like, just really fascinating and. Yeah. And it's interesting because I know for a lot of people a diagnosis can, for their child or for themselves or for their partner can feel really scary. But for me, it felt like the most relief I felt in so long for both my son and myself. And, you know, our daughter is 12 and she got diagnosed with anxiety. And the door is open on adhd. That's what the doctor said because of puberty and because of some other things. But there are things. I'm like, oh, girlfriend. And she's like, mom in my, like she wants to be. She's like, mom and my adhd. And I'm like, I don't know, sweetie. There are things like we're going to continue to watch and what's so exciting is we're learning. We're still learning. So, yeah, it's just been. It's been so wonderful to feel like I'm starting to really understand myself in a really beautiful way.

Tracy Otsuka (14:48)

Loving this episode. Imagine how much better life gets when you have the tools to create your ADHD brain's own operating manual so you can finally work with your brain, not against it. Your ADHD brain is a. Ok. Academy is my step by step patented program to help help you figure it all out. Click the link in the first line of this episode's description to sign up or book an AOK Discovery call. Now let's get back to the show. So I want to know what you were like as a kid because I can only imagine. Oh my gosh. I saw on your TikTok. No, I think it was Instagram, one of the two. The five year old stealth with all of the states. So she literally in 20 seconds says all the states in alphabetical order. So was that from memory, Kirsten?

Kiersten Lyons (15:45)

Yeah. So it was fifth grade. It was it. We learned it in second grade and I every year by the time I was in third grade, I could say them in under 20 seconds, all 50 states. And we had learned this song called 50 Nifty in the United States. And I really, truly thought that was how I was going to get boys. Like, I was like, let me tell you, I'm gonna give you the 50 states and I'm going to give them to another 20 seconds in alphabetical order and you're going to love it. And every guy was like, okay. I was quintessential. I am fully quintessential. Eldest daughter was parentified. You know, to feel safe, I wanted to take care of everybody else. I was definitely very high achieving. I was the kid that when the teacher had to leave the class, oh, Kirsten will watch the class, right? Like, Kirsten will take care of it. Super. Every report card was. She talks too much. Every report card. I remember in eighth grade, I didn't get drama as an elective. They wanted to give me Spanish and I'd already taken French. And I went into the guidance counselors and literally made a case for why I needed to be in drama because obviously I was going to be a famous actress in. Spanish is a great language, but I don't need to take a language in eighth grade. I have to in high school. So let's save that for high school. I mean, I went through this. He goes, are you going to be a lawyer? You should be a lawyer. He's like, you talk with such authority. And I was like, so this is what we're doing. You're giving me drama. He's like, we're giving you drama. That's fine. So I definitely, yeah, very messy, very disorganized. My brain was just holding all this stuff and knew where everything was, but constantly losing things, constantly misplacing things, but also on the flip side, taking care of everybody else and really good at taking care of everybody else and really good at keeping everything intact for everybody else and terrible at taking care of myself to the point that when my husband. When my husband and I got serious, I was eating fast food like seven times a week. And he was like, are. You're gonna die? Like, are you okay? And I was like, no, because this makes sense to me. Like, I don't have totally. Oh, brain fog, all that. But he was like, he still, to this day, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I forgot to eat. He's like, what? How do you forget to eat? Like, for him, it's just like, you hungry, you eat. He's also a great cook, but watching him open the fridge and like, oh, I think I'll make this egg thing. I'm like, how do you do that why? And how? Like, no, I just grab a hard boiled egg that's already and I cut it and I eat it. Like, I don't. I am the most creative person except when it comes to food or anything to take care of myself. I'm like, huh? No, I don't care. I love food, but I don't care. Like, it just like. Yeah.

Tracy Otsuka (18:19)

What about socially? Was that a challenge?

Kiersten Lyons (18:23)

Yes and no. Because I was the good kid. I think some friends got compared to me and they didn't love that. I mean, I know they didn't, but I think socially, looking back, I was so much. I was so much. I was constantly told I was dramatic, that I was too much by in my family and out of my family. So many feelings all the time. Like all the feelings all the time.

Tracy Otsuka (18:48)

All at the same time, right?

Kiersten Lyons (18:49)

Yes, yes. Inside out. Both one and two just killed me. I was like, oh, so you see me, okay, I was a lot. I had a lot of feelings. Everything super empathetic, like feeling everybody's feelings. Very, very compassionate to a fault. You know, I think codependent as I got older and obviously. But yeah, I think socially I definitely, like, had my core group of friends, but I was in theater and I did like Girl Scouts when I was younger. I had my core group of friends, but I think even within that theater group, I think I still was a lot.

Tracy Otsuka (19:25)

Oh, that's right. A theater kid, a drama kid.

Kiersten Lyons (19:29)

Yeah. I remember going to college and my college, I went to Muhlenberg College in Pennsylvania and it was known for pre med and musical theater, which is just, to me, a very funny group to put together. Also both neurodivergent. And I remember I was constantly called the drama queen, like by my friends who weren't in theater and they would like, draw pictures and not even me. They were just like, you're such a drama queen. And I'm, I think also my pattern recognition, now that I've learned about pattern recognition, I'm like, how do you guys not see what's happening here or over here? And people would say, you're so dramatic. And then it would happen. Yes. And then they'd be like, oh, I don't want to say I'm like the smartest person in the room. That's not what I mean at all. I'm just super observant. And I'm like, how do you guys not see what's happening? This is just so confusing to me.

Tracy Otsuka (20:15)

Kirsten, did you always feel different than everyone else or did you have one or More friends who you felt like actually were pretty similar.

Kiersten Lyons (20:24)

I always felt different. I think I did meet people along the way. One of my best friends, she's passed away, and I talk about her a little bit in the book, but she was much younger than me, and I actually more was like a mentor to her in the beginning. I met when we met when she was 15 and I was 20. But then really being. We could be silly with each other, we could be stupid with each other, and she was a lot. She was all the emotions, all the feelings, and as we got older, we became closer. And five years back then is a lot, but as you get older, it's really not that much. And in a lot of ways, with her, I felt like I found my person. My sisters and I, they're eight and a half years younger than me, but we were super close. But, yeah, I. I think especially when we're younger, not so much now. We've all kind of grown up. But I think I always felt, like, lonely, I think, would be the best way to put it. When you're the kid that can see how the choices that people are making are pattern recognition. Right? I'm like, well, that's not a good choice because that's gonna happen, and that's gonna happen. And that's. I'm annoying. And I'm like, oh, she's such like, oh, Kirsten. Yeah, I know you don't drink. You don't. Whatever. And it's not that I didn't. I partied when I got older and I drank, but it was like, I just didn't do it in the way that other people did it. And so I just was annoying. And I think in that way, I always felt kind of outside.

Tracy Otsuka (21:39)

Well, and it sounds like you were also vocal. It's one thing if you don't do any of those things, but you don't talk about it, but you're trying to convert everybody as well or pointing it out because you just can't not.

Kiersten Lyons (21:49)

Yes. Yes. Oh, and I. I remember a friend, senior of high school, she just looked at me and she was like, you interrupt me all the time. And I was like, I just thought that's how people talk, because that's how we talk in my family. Like, I literally was the first time, I was 18. And I remember being like, what? I was so confused. And then she goes, you never asked me how I'm doing. And I was like. And I was like, you're supposed to tell me. Like, I tell you so. You're supposed to I'm supposed to ask, like, it was so foreign that I was like, but that's not the way people communicate. And I think it really. As I've gotten older, I mean, sometimes I like, literally sit on my hands not to interrupt. And I still. That's something. I'm like, I'm 44, and I'm like, kirsten, don't interrupt.

Tracy Otsuka (22:33)

Have you gotten much better, though, at, hey, how are you doing? What's going on with you? Like, you notice that you've been talking a long time.

Kiersten Lyons (22:39)

I think I have. When somebody's talking about them, like, in terms of what's going on with them, I lock in.

Tracy Otsuka (22:45)

I am all in if you're interested in them. I'm sure you've also been around, like, people where, oh, my gosh, just be quiet. You were so boring. This all.

Kiersten Lyons (22:54)

Yeah. Oh, yeah. But for the most part, I think also because of my codependency, I'm like, how can I love you? Well, how can I help you? So I definitely, yes, I lock in. I like, I'm a lover. I love to love people. I love to, like, sacrifice my whole self for them sometimes, which I talk about in the book. But I really do genuinely love for people to know they're not alone because I felt so alone for so long. That would be my biggest reason for writing the book. And that would be my biggest reason. Like, my purpose is, like, I just want people to know they're not alone. And that's, I think, why I love this podcast so much. So you offer that gift to people.

Tracy Otsuka (23:31)

Well, thank you. So, Kirsten, you have been, or I'm not sure if you're still doing it, but I know you had been a working actress in Hollywood for quite a long time. Well, first of all, tell us about it. And then is it your observation that most people in Hollywood are probably somewhere on the ADHD spectrum?

Kiersten Lyons (23:51)

Yes, I do think. I do think there's a lot of us because we're. We tend to be creative people. Also, I think there's a lot of us that want to be loved, want to be included, want to be part of the crowd. And so that is a logical place for us to go, whether we realize it or not. I mean, you know, crush this in three parts. It's the heartbreak, how do they get here? And the breakthrough. So I really go into inner childhood wounds. I mean, it's a really, like, funny book. I'm a comedy writer, but it's also really gut wrenching and healing too. And I think what is so Beautiful is being in LA and sitting in a room, a casting room, and you're sitting there and you're a bunch of girls that look like you. And it's almost like the door opens and everybody kind of looks like. And they're like, please love me, please pick me, please choose me. And it's a really odd place to be because you're like, wow, so many of us have some work to do. You know, when you finally get there and you realize maybe these people that I kind of had admired maybe aren't as together as I thought they would. They were. Right. I do think that there is a lot of neurodivergence in the entertainment industry and in most creative communities because I think that's, you know, when I'm locked in and I'm hyper focused, hyper fixated, I'm not gonna stop. And sometimes to the detriment of myself. No.

Tracy Otsuka (25:06)

When I was 12 years old, I don't know what I did. My father would always call me impetuous, impulsive, dramatic. And he looked at me and I can't remember if he was joking around or he was annoyed, but he looked at me and he said, you should be on a soap opera. And I remember in my brain thinking, I would love to be on a soap opera, but my working memory is so bad I couldn't remember one line that, you know, requires working memory. Although I do believe there are some things that I memorized when I was. It was before puberty and I actually can still, like, there's still songs that I know because they're locked in there. Anything else, forget it. But my whole thing was, oh my God, I could never memorize a script. You must be really good at that, though.

Kiersten Lyons (25:52)

Yeah, I mean, as I got older, I Maybe not as. Yeah, I really am. I think when I care, I care. And it, it. And it locks in so quickly. And I think I always cared about acting and performing, you know, in equal parts because I love telling stories. And equal parts because I wanted to be famous. Because as I talk about in the book, like, I thought if I became famous, then I would. Because I was bullied a lot in my family as well as in outside in the world. And I thought, oh, if I'm famous, then I'll be safe now everybody will love me. Which is hilarious because famous people are. That's not what happens. But, you know, when you're in fourth grade, that makes a lot of sense. And so I really had no problems reciting lines or memorizing them. But what's funny And I wonder if this is adhd is. The things that I don't care about, I'll get wrong and I'll always get them wrong. Like, I can't, you know, the things that I'm hyper focused on now, I could talk about 15,000 times over, but the things I don't care about, I don't care about, and it's annoying and stop talking to me about it.

Tracy Otsuka (27:00)

So you're saying that when it's something you really care about, your working memory is brilliant. When you don't care about it, it sucks. You can't remember anything.

Kiersten Lyons (27:10)

I can't remember anything. And I also have. My brain, like, my brain is like 15 million things and I'm having a really hard time focusing. And I've just thought about the shopping list and this and that, and I just. Yeah.

Tracy Otsuka (27:22)

You know, when we're talking about acting, was that a positive experience for you, being an actor in Hollywood or. I mean, it sounds awful. Unless you get the role right. Unless you get the part.

Kiersten Lyons (27:37)

It's funny, I was just talking to my husband about this because a massive part of me with ADHD is rejection sensitivity, which I didn't even learn about it until, what, two years ago? And then I'm like, oh, my God, like, this is me. Like, people would be like, why can't you get over that? Just get over it. Why is this bothering you? Why can't you compartmentalize? Like, I just was talking to someone about some stuff that's happening in the news. It was a couple months ago, and they're like, I don't, like, I don't understand what's wrong with you. And I was like, I feel everything. So how are you not feeling this? And so in terms of acting, I remember my first therapist said to me, you know, it's interesting that you have a hard time with rejection and you chose to be an actor. Like, she's like, let's uncover this. Yeah, it was. I'm not going to lie, it was in so many ways horrible, but in other ways, I think it's the only place that could have grown me the way it did. There's so many beautiful things. I mean, I met my, my husband in la. We had our first daughter, and I haven't even, like. So we have a foster daughter who's now 29, and I became her big sister through big brother's big sisters when she was nine and a half. I was her big sister for eight and a half years, and then she moved in with us when she was 18. And, I mean, she's ADHD, and it's hilarious now, knowing all of, like, just all of it is hilarious. But as hard as being an actor in LA is, I wouldn't give any of it up for the gift of the people that are in my life because of Los Angeles and also the experiences and also the growth. There's so much. Like, I don't think there's anywhere else that would have grown me, and there's nowhere else that would have hurt me that much.

Tracy Otsuka (29:29)

Do you think the net effect was more confidence after, you know, you went through all this, or do you think it's less confidence?

Kiersten Lyons (29:37)

I think it's now more confidence, But I think 10 to 15 years ago it was less. I think. I think I had to get. For me, I'm not in LA anymore. I had to get out of LA to really. It was almost like that part of my existence needed to happen, but then I needed to leave. It was becoming a toxic relationship and I needed to go. And I left acting for a long time, and then I went back into it for a little bit. And then right before this book went out to publishers, I actually left my agency. I love acting. The business is not what it used to be. And I just missed, you know. You know, you asked me about social stuff. Like, I love interacting with people and I'm damn good at it. Like, I'm real good at it, and I can sell anything to anyone, and there's no more of that in the business. Like, I loved getting in a room and meeting producers and all these things when you got to that opportunity, and that just doesn't really exist anymore. It's all, you know, sending in a tape and all this. So just felt like the business had changed. And I was really like, is this something. Do I want to change with it or am I ready to let it go? And I think I was very ready to let it go.

Tracy Otsuka (30:42)

Did I learn everything that I needed to learn from that experience? And so now I can move on?

Kiersten Lyons (30:47)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Tracy Otsuka (30:50)

Okay, tell me about your book deal. I always love hearing about book deals. And I looked up your publisher. It's a very interesting publisher. They distribute through Simon and Schuster. And what I love is, well, maybe I wouldn't love this if I was actually the author, but they donate a portion of the author's advance to a charity of the author's choice. So I want to know. I always want to know because, you know, I've been through this, too.

Kiersten Lyons (31:15)

Yeah, yeah.

Tracy Otsuka (31:16)

How did you get the book deal and what was your experience writing the book with them.

Kiersten Lyons (31:23)

So it was a very interesting experience, the whole thing around. I didn't know anything about the book world. I had been in the entertainment world forever. I had no idea how crushing the book world was just as much as the entertainment. I kind of went into it really naive and I'm really glad I did because I don't know if I would have gone through it without it. There's a really important part of this, is that. So this was a one woman show back in 2012 called Crush. Why is it that the boys that you like don't like you back? And it was based on the broken engagement and it was again, going to my childhood. It was funny, whatever. It was supposed to be made into a TV show for a network. The producer then got really successful, got greenlit for his first major motion picture and basically I became a casualty of his success. I kept trying to get it going. It never really got going. Then a producer found me on TikTok and we ended up taking the pilot that I had written, making it a Christmas movie and a fun, like, multi generational movie.

Tracy Otsuka (32:21)

And was it called Crushed?

Kiersten Lyons (32:23)

No, it was called Most Likely to. I believe. I can't remember. And then. But it was based on Crushed. And then that producer ghosted me. So it has been 20 years in the making in a lot of ways. And so I was, you know, at this point I was just crushed. I would. My heart was broken. My rejection sensitivity was just, you know, it had been years and years and years of being told in la, you're not pretty enough. We don't know what it was. A lot of, we don't know what to do with you. You're great. We just don't know what to do with you. And I think at that point, you know, parenting, I just was like, I need to take a step back. And then I read a CDC report that said 60% of teenage girls are experiencing persistent sadness and loneliness. Of that, 30% have thought of harming themselves and 10% have. And I made a TikTok right there. I was in the Costco parking lot and I was crying and I made a TikTok. And I said, listen, I know what it's like to be so sad when you're a teenager and feel like the world is just so hard. And I just want you to know, like, it gets better, you're going to be okay. But I also know, like, heartbreak is real and, like, I'm not going to minimize it, you know, I'm not going to Pretend it's not real, but also you're going to be okay. And life has a way of pivoting and twists and turns and there's going to be heartbreak, but you're going to be okay. And I'm not pretending that everything's going to work out. That's not what I mean. But just keep going. Please keep going. I felt so exposed and almost embarrassed because I was so blotchy. I almost took it down and then I just started seeing all these comments and they were like, thank you. I needed this. Thank you. One girl was in the hospital because she had just tried to harm herself. And then I was getting people that weren't teenagers that were like my 16 year old self needed this. And in that moment I knew I had to write the book because. Because I had shared bits and pieces of my story on TikTok and people were like, please write a book, please write a book. And I was just like, it's too much, it's too hard. And when I read that report and saw those comments, I was like, I have to keep going. I have to let people know that like no matter what happens, there's goodness and surprises ahead and it's okay to grieve. Grieving and healing are not linear and. And I, I don't subscribe to the. Everything happens for a reason. I just think stuff happens. But goodness can happen and things can be. Yeah, things can. There's so much redemption in this book of so many. I mean, from the him saying he didn't love me to 15 years later signing the book deal. I mean, that's just one. There's so many beautiful things and I mean, talking about being too much. The book opens with a future letter I wrote to my husband when I was 14 saying like, I believe you're Jonathan Taylor Thomas from Home Improvement. And the date that that letter was written in 1996, comes full circle in the book. And it's, it gives me goosebumps. It's one of the most beautiful things. And I don't want to ever minimize someone's heartbreak, but I also don't ever want to minimize the hope that can come out of it. And I say that 2 hours ago I was bawling on my bed because writing a book and then, and then trying to get it out there is the hardest thing I've ever done. So like I all, again, I'm like taking my own advice. And so I found an agent, which is, it's all in the author's note, but I found an agent. And I loved her. She's the best like rep I've ever had. I just did queries.

Tracy Otsuka (35:54)

Did you write a book proposal?

Kiersten Lyons (35:56)

So not yet. So first I met with an agent.

Tracy Otsuka (35:59)

Wait, how did you meet with an agent before a book proposal? Because normally, just so you know, our listeners know you write a book proposal and that's how you find an agent. And then they submit it to acquiring editors.

Kiersten Lyons (36:11)

Okay, so this is what happened. I had all these things from TikTok and people were like, please write a book, please write a book. And I've had things go a million views and they were like long form stories. So I reached out to a friend of a friend who was in a writer and she introduced me to her agent. That agent was like, hey, let's set up a meeting. She picked a date. It was 14 years to the day that my ex told me he didn't love me. And I was like. And I was like, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. This is amazing. We had the meeting. She's like, well, do you have a book proposal? I go, what's that? Because I didn't know. And I. And you know, I'm like, as much as I knew about writing scripts and acting, I knew nothing about this. And so she's explained, she sent me some sample book proposals because she was like, look, you're interesting. You, you know, have good views, whatever, I'll, I'll be. I'm interested. I wrote a book proposal, sent it off to her, and she basically was like, what you're writing is too hard of a sell. You're not Tina Fey. You're not Jeanette McCurdy. No. So I came back to her with all of these comments and messages from people and I was like, I'm telling you, this book is needed. I'm not. This isn't for me to say, like, hey, look at me. This is for me to say, like, hey, guys, you are seen. You are seen, you are known, and you are loved, and you are not alone. And she just basically was like. She just. She was like, yeah, it's just too hard. So then I started querying agents and I queried an agent and I started tracking my emails.

Tracy Otsuka (37:41)

So by now you had written a book proposal.

Kiersten Lyons (37:43)

I had written a book proposal by now. And I think I pumped that out in like four days.

Tracy Otsuka (37:48)

Of course you did. I think it took me longer to write the book proposal than it took me to write the book. And I am not exaggerating from a timeline factor.

Kiersten Lyons (37:55)

Yes. Yeah, I think I. So a Friend of mine had sent me her book proposal as a sample, and I saw her personality, and I was like, oh, I'm steering away from what this. This agent had sent me. So I, like, did this whole thing. It had, like, very 90s vibes, and, like, it was fun, and it had photos in it and just, like, all this stuff. And so I queried. I did, like, two or three queries a day because I really wanted to be focused and, like, find people that I thought would be good. Basically, everybody said no or just was like, we know, or they just didn't respond. But the second person I queried actually circled back and said, sent it to a different agent, a new agent, and that she. It took a while, but she was like, hey, I. I think there's something really special and magical. I'm not even done with the proposal, and I think this book is really needed. And she got it. And as an ADHD girly who felt so unseen and had literally been told by, you know, the entire entertainment industry, you're great. We just don't know what to do with you for so long. It was beautiful. Like, I'm not gonna pretend it wasn't. We had a meeting. She asked to represent me. I said yes. And then we reworked my proposal, and she did a beautiful job reworking it. But what was so great about her is she really was collaborative. She really. She didn't try to make it her own. And then we sent out and we did a first round. October 4th of 2023. And I know that day because it is St. Francis's feast day. And there's a poem or, like, a PR that belongs to him, and it's just so beautiful. And we read it at my best friend who passed away's memorial service. And this. It just means. It's so funny to me when, like, dates match up. And it just. It just meant a lot. It's like, you know, let me love others more than trying to be loved. Let me start. And it just, like, it's exactly what I hope for crushed. And then so it went out, and basically it was exactly what I've always heard. You're great, but I. Or, yeah. Or you're not famous and we don't want to put enough into this. Or it was old white men saying, I don't get it. And I'm like, it's not for you, sir. It's for your daughter. Yeah, your daughter, your granddaughter, your niece. Your. Your. Not you. Your. Your fourth wife. Like, it's not for you. And then so we Went on around two in January, I believe, or February. And so Regallo, the press that eventually signed me, she had been Gretchen, who started it, had been in the publishing world for eons and eons in the big five, and really just wanted to do something different. She wanted to make an impact, a social impact. And she sent it over to a very green person. And her name is Kate. She's my editor. And she read it and she was like, yeah, she got it immediately. 20, I think she was 23 or 24 at the time. We had a meeting and I was blotchy the entire time. And you know, my agent was on the call and it went great. And my agent called, she was like, oh my gosh, you're so good at this. That was amazing. And then we waited for like another week or two for them to make a deal or to offer a deal. And the way they do it, right, is they don't give you an advance, but you get more residuals. So your advance goes to a nonprofit and you get more residuals on the back end. And so we went back and forth and this is not what I hoped for. I hoped for a very big thing, right? Obviously. And it could not have been better. It was so collaborative. I trusted my editor so much. We still text to this day. And she was really great about honoring my story, but also saying, hey, what if we do this? Or what if we bring this around? And it was, it was incredible. I mean, I have not heard of anybody having the experience that I did with their publisher. She trusted me. She went, we went back and forth. My cover is basically. I mean, I had a designer, but I sent them a sample, they sent what they thought back. I said, no way. And we went back and forth and. And I'm so proud of it. And like the mash that's on my cover are at the time. 18 year old babysitter made it.

Tracy Otsuka (42:15)

Wait a minute. What do you mean 18 year old babysitter made it?

Kiersten Lyons (42:17)

So our babysitter for our son, who is like my target audience, drew the MASH and made it and they were able to like put it on the.

Tracy Otsuka (42:26)

COVID So what is the deal with this cover? Can you explain it? Because I was going to ask you about that.

Kiersten Lyons (42:31)

Okay, so mash. Do you know the game mash?

Tracy Otsuka (42:34)

No.

Kiersten Lyons (42:34)

Okay, so MASH was a very like recessed kind of game in the 80s, 90s and 2000s. So it's like your perfect life. You're creating your perfect life. So MASH is mansion, apartment, shack or house. And then you Know who you're going to marry, what city you're going to live in, and you have all these choices and you usually have three great choices. And then your friends pick a terrible choice and then you go through and you do the whole thing. And the idea of the book is like, I kept getting the terrible. Like I, you know, my choice to marry was the fiance who cheats on me. Like they just. The hilariousness of you think you have your life all planned out when you're a kid, when you're a teenager, when you're in your 20s, when you're in your 30s. And like, that's not the way life goes. And ultimately, yes, there are people that get everything they ever dreamed of, but those are very few and far between. And this book is really to say to the people out there that their life doesn't look like what they hoped it would be. You're not alone and I'm going to be right here and I'm going to make you laugh and I'm going to make you cry. But ultimately it's like sitting in group therapy and just hearing someone share their story. I am not trying to get anybody to think or believe it's not a self help book. I call it a memoir.

Tracy Otsuka (43:48)

Ish.

Kiersten Lyons (43:49)

There are maybe some self help moments, but it's really more like take what you want and leave the rest. There's no step by step process, especially for ADHD people, that doesn't. I'm all over the map.

Tracy Otsuka (44:01)

So Amy Poehler, just so everyone knows, is in your acknowledgments.

Kiersten Lyons (44:05)

She is. So is Tina.

Tracy Otsuka (44:08)

Oh, okay.

Kiersten Lyons (44:08)

So is Tina. I actually write it. Tina and Amy, Steve Martin, Carol Burnett, Martin Short, Mindy Kaling and Maya Rudolph. I'll read it. This isn't how I plan to tell you how much your wit, humor and authenticity have shaped me. I really thought we'd bump into each other at an award show or a red carpet or at least a dinner party at Lauren's house. Either way, even though we've never met, each of you have taught me how to spin words, to spin heads, and to forever be fully myself. Thank you. Amy and Tina mean so much to me as a writer and as a performer. Because as a girl, we're not. We weren't supposed to be funny. You know, we weren't. We were too much. I was too much. I was too dramatic. I was too loud. I mean, that was a big one. Kirsten is so loud. I was funny. It was like these things that I wasn't supposed to be and for so long, I tried to put myself in different boxes. I even talk about, like, my first boyfriend. I stopped being funny. I stopped being loud. I started to be what I thought he wanted me to be. And I think for me to be able to say thank you to those women and men, I mean, Martin shorts, you know, memoir is one of my favorite. I love Steve Martin. Be able to say to them, like, thank you for being too much, because it allowed me to have the permission to be too much. And I feel so deeply grateful to Tina and Amy for writing and creating and being who they are.

Tracy Otsuka (45:44)

So is your husband in the acknowledgment?

Kiersten Lyons (45:47)

He is. He's the first and he has a long. This is. In a lot of ways, this book is a love letter to my husband. Like, the amount of people that are like, well, your husband is incredible. Like, he. It really is a real life rom com. It really is. Like, I mean, you know, you're watching me get cheated on in real time. You're watching me go through deep, deep heartbreak. You know, it's really important to note that when my ex cheated and all these different things, by the way, he cheated the night after he proposed. Obviously, I didn't find out about it until like, five months later.

Tracy Otsuka (46:17)

What the hell? Like, what are you even thinking?

Kiersten Lyons (46:20)

I think that's the biggest question. And we go into it. I mean, there's some childhood wounds for him and me trying to fix him. I mean, it's just all the things. And for me to realize that we did not call off the wedding right then for two weeks. He called it off and on about three more times. And I let him because I loved him so much and I allowed him to treat me like that. And I think, you know, being a bullied child and constantly trying to feel like I need to prove my worth was something that I really had to uncover and discover. And it was so beautiful writing this book and the years before writing this book, the therapy and the group therapy. And, you know, I was in Al Anon, which is friends and family of alcoholics, and really trying to process why I allow people to treat me the way I do. And, you know, for me, faith is a big part of. But it's my journey. I'm not trying to push that on anybody else. I really think there's such a beauty in finding out who you are and being that to the best of your ability. There's a quote, It's St. Catherine of Via, I think, but it's be who God created you to be. And you will set the world on fire. And I just want to be who I am. I want everyone to, you know. My hope is that in the details, people see the universal truth that they are worthy, but also the universal, like, story that so many of us struggle to feel worthy.

Tracy Otsuka (47:53)

What shifted for you, Kirsten? At what point? So it sounds like you were a bit of a doormat, right? Just being whomever anybody wanted you to be. Not being yourself, not feeling. So you must not have felt safe, right, to ever be yourself.

Kiersten Lyons (48:09)

It was this dichotomy. I talk about it. It was this dichotomy of, like, this confident girl, right, this loud whatever, and the. And the duality of self hatred. And it was like I was constantly going like this, and it was. It was a rocking boat that just never felt safe or secure.

Tracy Otsuka (48:26)

So what flipped for you that all of a sudden you were like, wait a minute, if I'm being who they want me to be, I'm living their life, not mine, and I want to be who I am? I mean, you had to first figure out who that was, right?

Kiersten Lyons (48:41)

Yes, yes. There's such a great scene in Runaway Bride where Julia Roberts. I talk a lot about rom coms and how they shaped me. And Julia Roberts is, you know, trying eggs, deciding what eggs she actually likes because she always chose the eggs that she was with the guy with that she was with. And I feel like that was a huge part of my life is like, after finally this final. The wedding being called off and. And realizing, you know, and it's. I tell really true, vulnerable, embarrassing stories. I try to get it back. I mean, it was when I finally realized and accepted, you know, acceptance is not linear. Sometimes I accepted it, sometimes I didn't. But when I finally accepted that, like, we weren't going to be together and this was dream life that I thought I had was going to happen, wasn't going to happen. That to me was the beginning of the switch because that, to me was the beginning of realizing I don't maybe know exactly what's good for me. And letting go and surrendering and, you know, they talk about in 12 steps is like, letting go and just surrendering to the fact that, like, we're powerless. It doesn't mean we don't have power. That's not what I mean. But just accepting, like, I can't change someone else. I can only change myself. And that the gift of sitting and, you know, sitting in a room and hearing other people's stories and realizing you're not alone and, like, it's not shameful or embarrassing. To be heartbroken, to be feel unworthy to all of these things is the first step to then making. Deciding, like, okay, I'm not alone. And some of these people actually are, like, healing. How do I get there? And I think for me, it was really the acceptance. The acceptance. And then I could finally learn to accept me. But that definitely took time.

Tracy Otsuka (50:35)

So ultimately, he did you a huge favor. That was a gift. It might not have felt like it in the moment, but, oh, yeah, I.

Kiersten Lyons (50:44)

Think, you know, what did they say? Rejection is protection. I firmly believe that. But if you would have asked me two hours ago when I was on the bed crying, I would have been like, well, screw you. That's not true. But, like, genuinely, genuinely believe that. And I genuinely, genuinely believe that, like, if the more we fall in love with ourselves, the more we can go out into the world and, like, be who we're created to be. And I think for us, especially as women with adhd, that can be really, really hard when we've been told so many things. You know, one of the things I talk about in the book is how many people either said things to me or over me about me, and I allowed myself for so long for. For people that didn't know who they were to tell me who I was, and for me to finally realize, like, no, no, you don't get a vote and you don't get a voice because you actually are just as messed up as I am. And that was a really defining moment in my life. And it all also is a consistently defining moment, right? Because I'm waiting right now. There are massive people that have my book. Like, massive people that have my book. And I have to be patient and know that there are people that have said they love my book, but they still haven't confirmed me on their show or their podcast or whatever. And it's like, am I okay? And I don't know, but am I okay with this book not being as big as I would hope it to be for no other reason than I literally just want other people to know they're going to be okay and they're not alone? So, yeah, I mean, it's a daily adventure of having ADHD and being stuck in your brain sometimes.

Tracy Otsuka (52:28)

So if there is a woman listening and can really relate to your story, and she is in a situation right now where she knows that she's not living her life and being herself, like, she's not living her life in a way that is actually true to who she is, what is the first step, I think, okay.

Kiersten Lyons (52:49)

And I'm not trying to push my book, but I do think the first step is reading my book. Because I think when we're surrounded by people that know what we're going through, it's a heck of a lot easier to say, okay, I am accepting the fact that I'm not living authentically to, like, who I was created to be. Right. And then I think the next step is really, once we've accepted that, to, like, find out, go back and eat those eggs. Like, find out what. What do we, like, you know, what brings. I. I hate to say what. Sparks joy, because I feel like that's been used so much to, like, the self help land. So I don't. But I just mean, like, when do you feel. When do you feel loved and when. And good? I remember there was this moment I was a waitress at P F Chang's. I mean, this was years ago. I was just trying to pay my bills, to act. And I remember I was this little girl. I had, like, sauce all over me. It had been a, like, crazy night. And this little girl wanted to bring her brother his birthday dessert. So I had her come over and I had her, like, help me light the candle. And we walked it over together and I had, like, sauce on me, and I was gross and whatever. And we're walking it over and I just remember thinking, I feel so beautiful and whole right now. And I'm allowing somebody else to feel seen. And in allowing somebody else to feel seen, I feel seen. And I think that, you know, being a big sister through big brothers, big sisters, when you're in your 20s is a really humbling, beautiful experience. Experience and loving other people well, can actually help you love yourself well, as long as you're not completely sacrificing yourself. And that is what I talk about in the book is like, finding that balance. I think for people to know that you say, like, there's. Everybody does something brilliantly or something. That's. I so believe that. And I would even go one step more and say, like, you are so worthy. You were worthy before you ever did anything, said anything. And I think, you know, I think so many of us put our worth on what we have, what we do, or. Or what people say about us. One of my favorite writers, Henri Nouwen, talks about that and, like, the gift of when we're a baby, we're not doing anything and we're still worthy. And there's a lot of. I do a lot of, like, inner child stuff in here, and it's funny and silly. And I, you know, I had bowl cuts and I was an awkward kid. Loud, obviously. But it's really this beautiful thing of, like, learning to love. I had to learn to love my little girl self, and that's a really hard thing. When you were told as a little girl, you were too much. And when you were told as a little girl, the dichotomy of too much and not enough all at the same time. Right. And so really finding her the little girl. And I literally talk about, like, I sang a song to a picture of my little girl self. There's so much that to that woman that feels that way. Like, you were worthy before you ever wrote your name, tied a shoe, sang a song, and you are worthy right now. And I know that women have been told time and time again, you know, our currency, first and foremost, is our beauty. It's not true. It's just the way the world looks at us.

Tracy Otsuka (56:20)

We were socialized.

Kiersten Lyons (56:22)

Yeah. And I think that I go back to that moment where I was, you know, helping that little girl bring over her birthday dessert for her brother. Because everything the world would say, I was not attractive. Right. I had sauce on me, I was sweaty. I'd been working all night, couldn't. I could barely pay my bills. I didn't drive a nice car. I was a struggling actress. I think at that point. I'd been on, like, one TV show. I couldn't pay my bills with acting at all. And yet in that moment, I was allowing somebody else to be seen and I was being seen.

Tracy Otsuka (56:53)

And that made you feel so good. Yeah.

Kiersten Lyons (56:56)

Yeah. I also want to speak to the idea of, like, I don't want to pretend this isn't hard. I think a lot of people, you know, there's theories, you know, just do this and it'll be great and just do that. And like, I really. That's crushed. Is the antithesis of that. I'm not trying to tell people to manifest or do this or do that. It's really about, like, sitting in our grief allows us to move through it and actually heal. And I think so many times they're like, no, no, no, everything's going to be great. Just be positive. Good vibes only. And I'm like, that's B.S. it just our body stores that. Right. And so really allowing ourselves to move through it, especially when we are so much of the too muchness, you know?

Tracy Otsuka (57:41)

So, Kirsten, how do you know that you were the last kid in your 500 student class to get your period? How the hell does she even know this?

Kiersten Lyons (57:53)

Well, I was. Because I was nine days before I turned 16. I got my period. I was the last girl. And I remember being in the downstairs gym bathroom, and I told my best friend, I go, lauren, I got it. And she goes, no, you didn't. I go, no, I got it. And we come out, and I am sure the two girls that were sitting there thought I was pregnant. And I'm so excited. I got it. Meanwhile, I'm like, no boy wants to touch me. And second of all, I'm like, guys, no. I got my first period. Puberty finally happened.

Tracy Otsuka (58:20)

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I was the opposite in terms of. I wasn't early. I was like, average, I think, 13. But it was the last thing that I wanted. You know, it signified growing up and moving on. And I. I remember just being so sad about it, which is hilarious. And then I would have friends who were so excited.

Kiersten Lyons (58:42)

Yeah. I think by the time I just always thought, when you're too much and you're not enough, I thought when I grew up and I was finally cool and I was famous, then I would. And I finally got boobs, that I would, like, finally be enough, you know, I am crushed. Is quintessentially the movie 13 going on 30. And it's the realization of, like, I was always enough.

Tracy Otsuka (59:03)

Right? Exactly. Okay, let's do a lightning round to wrap up.

Kiersten Lyons (59:09)

Favorite ADHD hack asking for help. I think so many of us don't ask for help. And I think, you know, one thing I said to my husband, it was like, November, and I said, babe, I need new moisturizer, and I need this new powder. I need new powder, and it's not in Amazon. And Amazon's so easy for ADHD girls. We can just click and it's done. And I said, I've gone to these two websites multiple times, and every time they asked me to put my information in, I go do another task. And I said, I'm going to send you the link. Can you please order me three of these moisturizers? Because they're on sale. And one of these powders. It was the nicest thing he ever did. He doesn't have adhd. Boyfriend got it done in, like, four minutes. He was, like, done. And I was like, that has. That's been sitting in a cart for two months. So I think asking for help and majoring on our majors is really, really, really important.

Tracy Otsuka (60:02)

I love that phrase, majoring in our majors. You know, do what you're brilliant at and farm out the rest you know, figure out a way to do it. The last thing you lost.

Kiersten Lyons (60:13)

The last thing I lost a water bottle. I could not find a water bottle, guys. It was. I was like, okay, I guess I'm. That's fine. It's been two days. I'll get a new water bottle. I'll find it. And then I found it on a, like, a little stand right by our stairs. And it was as plain as day. And I had looked for it for, like, off and on for an hour. I'm like, where's that? I swear. And it still had ice in it because I was like, I swear. I just filled it up.

Tracy Otsuka (60:39)

Well, that is the surest way to find what you're losing, what you've lost, right? Just go buy another one and then it'll be right there. One system that you'll never give up.

Kiersten Lyons (60:48)

Notes and notes and alarms. When I tell you the amount of alarms I had for today, even though I was so excited, like you guys sent me the paper over, I filled it out right away. I was so excited. I was so hyper focused, like, I could do this. I was interested. It was like, so great. But still, alarms and notes, do you.

Tracy Otsuka (61:06)

Do them on your watch?

Kiersten Lyons (61:08)

No, I don't. I can't do a watch. Watch would make me. My. My ADHD go crazy because I would constantly. I couldn't. It would be so much. So I just do it on my phone and I do alarms. I mean, let me see if I can show you. I mean, I'm sure you've seen this a million times, but I mean, these are all the different types of alarms I have. Oh, and some of them. Some of them say things and some of them don't.

Tracy Otsuka (61:35)

Some of them don't. Right.

Kiersten Lyons (61:36)

Yeah.

Tracy Otsuka (61:37)

So where can people find your book? Find out more about you, all of that stuff.

Kiersten Lyons (61:44)

So on Instagram, I'm Kirsten lyons. Roar. On TikTok, I'm Kirsten Lyons. You can go to my website, KirstenLions.com and then you can get crushed. It's actually an audiobook as well as a book. I read it. And the guy who wrote my forward, Chris Carmack, who's an actor and a model, if you watch Grey's Anatomy, he's on it right now. He reads his forward, he wrote and did the foreword, and you can find that anywhere you find books or audiobooks.

Tracy Otsuka (62:05)

Wonderful. Kirsten, thank you so much for spending time with us here today. This was fun.

Kiersten Lyons (62:11)

Thank you. It was really fun.

Tracy Otsuka (62:13)

That's what I have for you for this week. If you like this episode with Kirsten, please let us know by leaving a review. Our goal is to change the conversation around adhd, helping as many women as we possibly can learn how their ADHD brains work so that they too may discover their amazing strengths. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you here next week. You've been listening to the ADHD for Smartass Women podcast. I'm your host, Tracy Outsuka. Join us at adhd for smart women.com where you can find more information on my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women and My patented you'd ADHD Brain is a okay system to help you get unstuck and fall in love with your brilliant brain. If you've been nodding along to this episode thinking, wow, this is me, it's time to stop just listening and start making some real changes. My program, your ADHD Brain is a OK Academy, is designed to help you work with your brain, not against it. It's not about forcing yourself into systems that don't fit, it's about finally understanding what does. So if you're ready to stop spinning and start thriving, you'll find the link to my program in the first line of this episode's description. Your ADHD brain is actually brilliant, so let's make it work for you.