← ADHD for Smart Ass Women with Tracy Otsuka
ADHD for Smart Ass Women with Tracy Otsuka
EP. 357: Seeing Is Freeing: Dr. Kalaki Clarke on ADHD Without Shame
00:54:41
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- [00:02]
A
This podcast has no sponsors, just free content for ADHD brains like yours. But if you want more, here's how. If your ADHD brain feels like an enemy right now, that's because no one ever taught you how to work with it. But that changes today. Join my you, ADHD Brain is AOK Academy and start making ADHD your advantage. Or for more information, find the link in the first line of this episode's description. Now, let's get on with the show. Richard Branson, Michael Phelps, Justin Timberlake, James Carville. Wait a minute. Where are the women? Greta Gerwig, Lisa Ling, Audra McDonald, Simone Biles. That sounds like a list of highly successful titans in a variety of industries. They all have adhd, but you don't hear much about that now, do you? You know what else you don't hear about are the 43% of people with ADHD who are in excellent mental health. Why aren't we talking about them and what they're doing right? I'm your host, Traci Edst, and that's exactly what we do here. I'm a lawyer, not a doctor, a lifelong student, and now the author of my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women. I'm also a certified ADHD coach. And the creator of youf ADHD Brain is aok, a patented system that helps ADHD women just like you get unstuck and fall in love with their brilliant brains. Here we embrace our too muchness and we focus on our strengths. My guests and I credit our ADHD for some of our greatest gifts. And to those who still think they're too much, too impulsive, too scattered, too disorganized, I say no one ever made a difference by being too little. Hello, hello, hello. I am your host, Tracy Atsuka. Thank you so much for joining me here for another episode of ADHD for Smartass Women. You know that my purpose is always to show you who you are and that and inspire you to be it. In the thousands of ADHD women that I've had the privilege of meeting, I've never met a one that wasn't truly brilliant at something. Not one. So of course I am just delighted to introduce you to Dr. Kolaki Clark. Dr. Clark is a board certified family physician, TEDx speaker and mental health advocate who has spent the last two decades making sure the unseen feel seen all. Most of her career has been dedicated to providing care for underserved communities in Los Angeles while also shaping the next generation of doctors. As an associate professor of medical education at USC's Keck School of Medicine. Her own ADHD diagnosis during residency at UC Irvine in 2015 became a turning point, sparking her TEDx seeing is freeing how observation releases ADHD potential. And launching her into advocacy for physicians with adhd. She's helped craft equity guidelines for neurodivergent resident physicians, spoken at the International Conference on adhd, and is a sought after speaker. Blending story, science, strategy, and spirituality. Whether she's in the clinic, the classroom, or on stage, Dr. Clark is on a mission to dismantle stigma, debunk myths, and show the freedom that comes from being truly seen. Welcome, Dr. Kolaki. Did I get all of that right?
- [04:05]
B
You did it perfectly. Thank you so much, Tracy, for having me here.
- [04:10]
A
It's a pleasure. I'm going to tell a little bit of our story. So Dr. Kolaki really had a struggle getting on here. And it's just, you know, again, that dichotomy of here we have a brilliant medical doctor, but simple little things like jumping on. Well, we tried Riverside. That didn't work. And then it took a little bit to get on Zoom. Those kinds of things can be so difficult for us. Right. And so what I notice with a lot of very successful women with ADHD is they're brilliant in their careers, but then there's always a little piece of it. Whether it's family or whether it's technology or. Or whether it's communicating with other people, there is some little part of it that is just a struggle. And so that detracts from this, knowing that, oh, my gosh, I'm so brilliant here. Before we start talking about why you're actually here, I always want to talk about the ADHD diagnosis story and what you were like as a child. So can you share that with us?
- [05:15]
B
Yes. Yes. So basically, you know, it's a lived experience. So what we experienced and actually what I'm doing now is actually putting my name on the screen differently is just how it is. So it's nothing fake, it's nothing made up. So my story is, as a child, I was a good kid. You know, I wanted to be a doctor since I was five. So growing up, that was my focus. And school was actually good. That was all I did. I studied all the time, and science was good as well. So I went through school getting good grades, full tuition, scholarship for medical school. You know, I accomplished my goal. But it wasn't until residency 10 years ago where it was like the mask came off, so to speak, but I didn't know I was masking. So what happened Was, I believe, the whole time throughout, like, my schooling years and even in college, when you're studying, you're not doing anything else. You're not responsible for a family. You're not having all these things to juggle. You're kind of hiding and being in your own world, and no one can see what's really going on. They don't see that you have a whole pile of clothes that have not been washed and who knows when. And that you go to Target to get some undies because they're not clean. Right. They don't know all that. Right. And then, of course, I just read something that said the average age for Women is about 37 of diagnosis for ADHD. I just saw that recently, and I was diagnosed at 35. So my story goes that when I was in residency, my story is different because I had graduated in 2005, medical school, did one year of internal medicine residency, crashed out. It was a mental health crisis, for sure. Like, I was not willing to live. But I'm here, and I share my story. I say I show my scars so people can know that wounds can heal.
- [06:57]
A
Was there something specific, Dr. Kolaki, about residency that caused that? Because clearly, the book part, no problem. Right, Right.
- [07:05]
B
It's a lot of layers to it. So first of all, it's unrealistic in regards to working 80 hour week, you know, work weeks and whatnot. And then it's just the pressure you have to perform all the time. It's like every single moment is a test, a constant test. You have to tell the doctor about the patient, and then you have to know, answer a question, really on the spot when they ask you to. And so you're not getting much sleep because you might be studying to, you know, get it right. And then also, I was in an environment where I was the only one that looked like me. Like, let's two of us out of a class of 24. So then you sort of feel like, do I belong here? But statistically, you know, residents have, in general, doctors. Unfortunately, one doctor dies by suicide every day. Unfortunately. That's a real statistic.
- [07:44]
A
Wait, say that again.
- [07:45]
B
One doctor dies by suicide daily. About 300 to 400 physicians or medical students or residents. Yes. That's a sobering reality. Wow. Yeah. And I didn't want to turn it dark like that, but I'm just.
- [07:58]
A
Yeah.
- [07:58]
B
Awareness is important because, you know, there's so much pressure as a doctor. You have to be perfect. You have people think, you know, everything. My thought process is, because we have the pressure because, you know, we're on top, supposedly. Wouldn't it be more of a reason for us to be stressed out and suicidal? I'm just saying, think about it. It should not be, oh, you're a doctor. How could that be? Because I'm a doctor. Can't you see why that is? You know what I'm saying? Because of this and, and then the.
- [08:24]
A
Decisions you make every day, it can be life or death.
- [08:27]
B
I'll be frank with you with that part. I'm grateful that for me, because of my love for science and my ability, the Lord has given me to absorb it. Well, I don't honestly have those ongoing struggles in regards to like, I mean, it's life or death, but because I'm also a family practicing the clinic. My point is it's like I just focus on doing what's right and so I'm not so stressed out. But when you're sleep deprived in residency, yes, it can be that. And you knew, you just got. So you're sitting in class all four years, or most of the four years, just absorbing, you're not acting, you're not putting it into practice. Right. So that's contribute to it. So the thing is, at that time, that was suicidal thoughts. And I'm good now, thank God. But then when I got into residency 10 years later, because I, I actually finished one year of training practice for seven years without any board certification, then decided to go back to residency. Who does that, right? Only the ADHD brain. But see, with me, I was determined to get board certified. That was a setback. I just kept going, I got in. But then it was like within my first year of training. About the second part of that first year, I was in the hospital setting and things were just, I was losing things all the time. My stethoscope, my pager. At the time we had, they use the phones now. But you know, I was freezing when I was asked, you know, a question. I knew things and I was actually able to make plans for the patient. But I was always lingering a little bit longer than the other residents did. You know, I would stay late to do my work because it was quiet, no more chatter to distract me. Now I remember before I even had my diagnosis, a senior resident said she asked me some random questions, medical question. And I remember telling her, my brain doesn't work like that. And I didn't know. I diagnosed, she's like, tell me what this is. I said, my brain doesn't work like that. Not knowing that, wow, it really didn't work. Like that you have to give me a heads up, don't go on the spot. And here's the thing about adhd. We meet one person with adhd, you meet one person with adhd, right. It's not a cookie cutter. Everyone has to have these things plus their severities, mild, moderate or severe. So you know, take those things into consideration. But for me, I was just thrown off, sleep deprived. It was a lot. So long story short, and I talked about this in my talk, I was in a psychiatry rotation and there was a 10 year old boy who was spelling out my life in his actions. So I'm 35, he's 10, he's taking forever to get ready. He's smart, he's charming, he is people person, gets good grades but he can't get it together. And I was like, wow, he is reading my life, he's describing like oh my gosh. So then I did my own deep diving and looking into it more and I was like, this is so me. So I kind of self diagnosed before it was confirmed. Now here's the deal. When I had my crisis 2005, the difference between this situation with the ADHD revelation and that was that one. I didn't want to be here. I was just like, this is not working. But with this time around, it was more like, I want to live, I'm getting this done. But why? It's just frustrating. Why is this taking forever? It was more so the frustration of like people can do things like that and it's taken me eternity to get things done. So you know, I put two and two together because when I was in medical school they didn't talk about, they didn't focus much on the inattentive presentation. Probably I think it might have been ADD at the time, possibly. But we just think about the boy who can't stay still. Or you know, it was bad all the time supposedly. So then once I got it confirmed with the psychologist, a lot of questions, testing and got the diagnosis inattentive type. And so what that meant for me, it was like, you know, it's a double edged sword. It's like, well that's what's wrong with me. It makes more sense. But then it's like, wow, something's wrong with me. So then you feel flawed, you feel different, you feel, but at the same time you're kind of happy. Not happy, but you're relieved because it just makes sense. But fast forward you kind of realize that is not your fault. That's my saving grace. Or that's the Thing that keeps me forgiving and giving myself grace because I didn't ask for this. It's a neurobiological challenge of the brain. No one asked to have different brain wire. Right. So once you first accept or be aware of what's going on and you accept the reality, it is not going to go away. No matter how you wish it away, no matter how much you do, it can get improve with things that can treat it to support your functioning. But it doesn't go away. And it doesn't go away.
- [13:00]
A
It's so funny. I'm watching you and I'm like in a ton of adhd, this woman is so hyperactive as well. The way you talk and you move a lot and.
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B
Well, it depends if I'm excited about something. I think because I'm passionate about educating and dismantling myths and beliefs about what it really is, it stirs me up. So it's that adrenaline is going, but at baseline I'm not bouncing off the walls all the time, you know, so that means that if I'm not bouncing off the walls all the time, that might be going on my brain, but I'm not physically. But this is exciting, you know, dopamine begins. Dopamine begins. Dopamine, you know, so that's, that's what you're seeing.
- [13:37]
A
So it's so interesting what you're telling me about residency. And I have often thought, why are we doing this to our young doctors? I mean, we know that when we're talking about mental health challenges, they are all precipitated by a lack of sleep. It makes no sense. You are not going to have the sharpest brain. Right, right. And continue this garbage.
- [14:00]
B
When you're sleep deprived, it's almost like your brain is functioning as if you're drunk, essentially. Like that's how it is. But you know, it's. And I will say that things have gotten better, like over time. I think rules or regulations are being more enforced and there's more awareness about the need for self care. But let's say for me, you know, my predecessors were like 100 hour work weeks in the hospital. So then they think we're spoiled babies, you know what I mean? But because now I have an appreciation of how traumatic it is. It was traumatic, like traumatic. I don't look at the next generation. You say, oh, you guys are babies or punks or whatever. I don't look at that. I'm thinking, great, maybe you won't kill yourself because you're getting some support.
- [14:40]
A
I think I did See it on your TED Talk, which I had no idea as well, that only 3% of doctors are black women. Is that, that's what you said. Right. Which was shocking to me.
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B
Yes. And you know, that same statistic was the same thing maybe almost 20 years ago as well. Yeah, yeah.
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A
But DEI, right? All doctors are going through the same damn training.
- [15:04]
B
I love examples and analogies to make things make sense. So about the dei, let me just, just to settle it for anyone, I don't care if you have ADHD or not. This is how you need to look at it. Everyone is qualified. Think of a pool of fish, right. You have all these fish, different color fishes, but they're all fish with the same capacity to swim around the water. What you're doing, you're not saying, I'm going to take the fish that's, that's struggling and can't swim. You're not going to just focus on taking all of the orange fishes. If there are polka dot ones that are able to swim, you're going to cast that net to make sure you collect some of those polka dot ones and not have a class full of orange fishes. Yeah. Is that a good way to put it? Because I think it's interpreted as, oh, we're letting the fish with only one gill, you know, get into the pool and they can't help anybody when they're like that. No. Who would want that? Right. Yeah. Also too. We have to get through it all.
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A
The same board exams, all the same medical school.
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B
There's no special black tasks, there's no white test or Asian test. It's ridiculous.
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A
Giving people of color and women, although it's getting a lot better for women in terms of. I read that 38% of doctors are women. Yeah, but you're just giving everybody the same access.
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B
Right, Right.
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A
Okay. So my follow up question to you as far as once you found out, oh my gosh, this is adhd, how did life look different before and after your diagnosis, then a month after? Because sometimes it takes us some just to digest, you know?
- [16:38]
B
Right.
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A
I like really me.
- [16:40]
B
No, it was hard to digest in mind. I'm in residency training. Okay. Which without having ADHD is always also, I mean, already at baseline, a challenging feat situation. Right. And so because, and I'm not, I'm going to keep this very uplifting because it's not really a well known or well understood situation in general. How it goes. It was challenging very much and initially because they know what to do with me.
- [17:07]
A
Like, you know, are you open about it?
- [17:10]
B
Oh, I had to be open about it. Let me tell you why I was gonna be in trouble. I'm not getting a whole bunch of details, but I had to advocate for myself because I want to continue the program. You understand what I'm saying? So it went to. Once I learned more and I was able to advocate for myself, it went from, what are we gonna do with her? With, we're gonna support you and get you through. Wow. Yes. Yes. And so that's why, like, I'm very passionate about advocating, because when you don't know, you don't know. So as long as you know the bad stereotypes remain and you stay under the rug about what's going on, it just perpetuates that the challenge or the thought process that, you know, that we're dumb or we can't make it. And when you allow someone to intimidate you to feel that way, then they win. And you didn't ask for this. That's the bottom. If anyone doesn't take home anything else. You did not ask to have adhd. You did not ask for it. Right. You know, that's why I think I don't want to get too deep. Racism is dumb because no one asked me, whatever color they are. Okay, that's just who asked for that, right? Yeah, that's my point. That's why it's just dumb.
- [18:11]
A
It just is. And the only place the ADHD brain struggles is the place where the environment is wrong.
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B
Yes. Your post yesterday. Oh, I saw that. It talked about the soil. Right. Having to be in the right environment. That's how you can. If the bad soil is there, you're not going to grow. But on the converse, when you are supported and you are seen, meaning not just looked at as a problem, but maybe looked at someone who is different, might have a challenge and might have to do things differently than you do to get the same thing done. It's accepting the fact that everyone's brain is not the same. Just like everyone doesn't have the same kidney structure or some people have diabetes, some people don't. Some people have freckles, some people don't have freckles. Some people have rashes. I've never had asthma. I've never had allergies. I always say all my problems are above my neck. Whatever. My blood pressure is fine. You know what I mean? I probably could lose some weight a little bit, but I don't know what it's like to have those things that are below the neck. So everyone has something. So you think of it as just being a trait that just happens to be in your brain. And the brain is the most important organ we have. It determines everything that how we function. Right. So if you look at it as my brain just has challenges that the majority of other brains don't have. And if the statistic is 6% of adults have it, that means there's 94% of people who don't get it. Right. Let that settle. That means don't be surprised if they don't get it. Don't be like, oh, my gosh, he said I'm dumb. And this is another thing I say. Someone's ignorance of your diagnosis does not negate your lived experience of it does not negate your experience is real. They are not in your life. And you have to consider your source. Who are we talking about? Are you talking about an ADHD expert who's shaming you? Well, shame on them if that's the case. Are you talking about, you know what I'm saying, An ignorant person who was part of the 94% who wants to make you feel bad. Forget them. I mean, not forget them, but don't be so hurt about it. They just don't know. That's why whenever I experience racism, it didn't bother me, because you're just ignorant. And I have my goals, and you're not going to stop me from my goals. So if you have that challenge, do everything you can to get the support you need to keep moving forward. That's the only message.
- [20:21]
A
So in your TED Talk, your theme is seeing is freeing, and you had just kind of touched on that. Share with us how simply being seen and tell us what exactly that means to you. So simply being seen without shame or judgment can literally shift the ADHD experience?
- [20:39]
B
Yes, for not only you, but also for the neurotypical brain as well. So basically, seeing is freeing. Is. Every speaker talks about the theme, the theme of Schrodinger's Cat. So just to give a little back, history. So Schrodinger's cat is a quantum theory experiment where you have a cat in a box that's both dead and alive until you open it. So when I saw that theme, I was like, that's like adhd smart but scattered. Right. Chaotic but calm, Capable and chaotic or whatever. Distracted but diligent. Sometimes you know whatever you want to do. So those two paradoxes can exist? Absolutely. And you don't know which one it is. But when you see it, when you open the box, that tells you what you're dealing with. So the seeing Is freeing is when you see yourself as, I have this challenge. It is what it is. Don't shame yourself about it. You observe what it is without judging. So that's why I'll just lead into the cap. You see what's going on, and you realize I'm just different. I need to find out a way to make a strategy that works for me. Take your struggles to strategy. So you see yourself when you're in denial. You're not seeing yourself like you're. When you're trying to cover it up because you're ashamed you're not seeing yourself. I mean, your potential cannot be released. And no one's seeing you. They just see you as incompetent because that's what you're putting off, because you're not seeing yourself. And advocating for how things can work for you to get, you know, done what you have to do. Being seen means, let's say you have a neurotypical colleague who, you know, I gave that example in my talk. Like, they know I'm always late. So them seeing me is not saying, why are you so late? You know, my problem? Like, what is. Like, what is wrong with you? Like, you know, what the issue is. So don't be surprised if I'm like, lie to me, tell me what the time is not, and don't tell me that you told me. And it's not a matter of, well, you shouldn't have to do that. But that's just how my brain wiring is. Do you think we want to have these challenges? As I said, we did not ask for this. So being seen as someone having. Observing you with compassion and realizing that you're not like me. But, hey, I'm not like you either. So in reality, if the neurotypicals want us to do something for them to get it work, it will behoove you to listen to what we say might help us function. Right? And don't try to squeeze us into the box. I talk about apple and oranges, right? The apple's not an orange. The orange is not an apple, right?
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A
And we're the orange. And tell us why.
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B
Because, oh, we're deep. We have layers. We're layers. We have layers to us, you know, you buy into the apple really easily. That's not. That's typical. That's so neurotypical, right? All these apples. The orange is delicate, it's protected. But inside, you peel that layer off, you see what's there, those juices. People drink more orange juice than they do apple juice anyway, right? Yeah. Don't you think. Think about breakfast. You don't have. Well, you can drink apple juice, but most of the time you get orange juice.
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A
Babies drink apple juice.
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B
Yeah. Yeah. Immature babies. Yeah.
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A
Also, the color, like, orange, it's.
- [23:37]
B
Yes.
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A
And bright and.
- [23:39]
B
Yes. And that's why I said, well, maybe that's why I knew that wasn't it. I don't know. Maybe that's why, you know, orange is color for ADHD awareness. Right. Because we're oranges.
- [23:48]
A
I had no idea that that was the color of. You think I know that? But. I know.
- [23:52]
B
But that's the beauty of it. I mean, I've had it for 10 years, but there's still things I learned all the time, you know, like, it's just, you know, even I'm constantly learning. And the reality is, because we can have poor working memory, we could have learned it but forgot about it. Right, Right. You might have known it at some point. Who knows? Right.
- [24:09]
A
Absolutely.
- [24:10]
B
So give yourself grace about it and just. And that's nothing. Don't compare yourself to another apple or even to another orange. Because, like I said, our experiences are different. Like, for example, when I sometimes see people who are on time with adhd, I'm like, do they really have that? Are they.
- [24:26]
A
Yeah, that's my son.
- [24:27]
B
Really?
- [24:28]
A
Yeah. And I mean. But. Okay. But I think what it is, is he's probably. He has not been diagnosed, but he talks about it all the time. He is probably on the spectrum because he can get very. Like, he likes systems and structure and. Versus, I'm balking against them and pushing them away. He's always looking for them. It makes him really anxious if he's late. So he's always 10 minutes early. So it's a different way that he's addressed the anxiety. We're late and we're anxious the whole time. For him, the anxiety is too much, so he has to be early.
- [25:00]
B
Right. And of course, ADHD also has comorbidities. Like, a lot of adhd, those come with depression diagnosis and even, you know, autism. So it's kind of like they're balancing each other out in a sense. So if he does have adhd, at least he has another backup plan to, you know, support and compensate, you know? And it's interesting because, like I said, everyone's different. Like, I've never been in any car accidents. People talk about car accidents and tickets, and I've never been in a car accident. I've never had at all. And like, I. I sleep. Okay. People talk. They can't sleep. I Sleep well, you know, So I guess the point is everyone's different. Someone say how you lay off and I'm on time. I'm not your brain. I mean, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, I respect you and anybody who has anything consistent like this. I'm on episode 351. My friend, Dr. Elizabeth, she was on.
- [25:46]
A
Oh, my gosh, I love her. Yeah, she was on one.
- [25:49]
B
I wrote it down. She was on 120. Episode 120. Okay. I can be that consistent and be on episode 351 like you are, you know, So I admire you, but that's just how you're wired. That's what keeps you going. And everyone's different. I can still advocate, but not have the same platform that you do. And it's. Oh, I'm okay with that. You know, that's not behind the scenes. There's a lot that I'm sure goes along with it to. To be that way. You know what I'm saying? But. But my point is, you have to. Everyone has to do what they really want. What they want to do. Say I want to do because it's because of interest. Right, Exactly.
- [26:22]
A
I'm telling you, Dr. Kalaki, I didn't think that I could do 351 episodes, but once I started. Yeah, you know, and it was really hard initially, and then it got easier and easier, and now it's like, oh, I get to talk to friends.
- [26:36]
B
You know, it's awesome.
- [26:39]
A
And I've set up the system and the structure that makes it so easy. So I wouldn't say you could not do that. You don't know that. You haven't tried it.
- [26:48]
B
I could, believe it or not. My challenge is I just lose interest easily when the stops becoming shiny.
- [26:54]
A
But you like to talk. I can tell. You're so easy in your dialogue. And I don't know, I can see you on a podcast. On your own podcast. Okay, but before.
- [27:05]
B
Well, you can coach me on that. Maybe later in the future.
- [27:09]
A
So you developed the cat method. You just alluded to it. Tell us what that is. Break it down for us, and share how it helps both us, you know, those of us with ADHD and neurotypicals.
- [27:22]
B
Okay. So cat C, A T. And I basically derived it since the theme was Schrodinger's cat. That's where that kind of comes from. So cat means capture. That means whatever your challenge is, you're just identifying it. So, you know, for example, if I'm having trouble with. I don't want to wash the dishes. I identify. I do not want to wash dishes. Okay? I don't say, I don't think about, oh, you're stupid for not wanting to or everybody else can't just. Just say what it is. Say what happens. So let's say every time I come home, I see the dishes and I want to. I'm noticing what happens when I see it. Like, I'm not judging myself. I'm sorry. Now I'm going to analyze. I'm noticing when I come in and look at. I'm a analyze. I just. I just turn away and I go scrolling my phone. I noticed that's how it happened. So I had to have a solution for it. And so I noticed that when I see those dishes, I want to scroll. I mean scroll. I need to find something that interests me to make even one of those dishes. And if I know the scrolling isn't the thing my t transformation or my strategy is. Well, I observed I don't like them and I start strolling. What do I like? Maybe I can. When I see those, I take that phone and put some music on and just wash some dishes. You know what I mean? So you're transferring struggle to strategy and just making a way to make it work for you. I didn't change my brain. I changed the environment. I used my brain to change the environment. So the environment, when I say it's changed, meaning the sound, the music was there to add it to help me to kind of get going like that part of the environment. But then I had to first observe what was the problem, find out why, what am I doing, and then get a solution based on it. And that's why I said seeing is freeing. So because I see that happening, I'm freeing myself to do the thing that was a challenge for me. You know what I'm saying?
- [29:08]
A
In your own way.
- [29:09]
B
Yes, my way. Yes. Whatever. It gets it done. Someone could walk in the house and do the dishes like nobody's business. Like, you know, just hash it out. Wonderful. You can do that. I cannot do that. You know what I'm saying? And it's okay. But, you know, we have to work with how your brain works now the way it could work for someone else observing us for the cat Methods work is like. I mean, I gave the example with if you see someone observes, someone's late, you analyze. We might not always know why they're late. You can analyze how you feel about that. You might say, I get so pissed off and I am so ready to just be done with Her. But then you realize. But she is usually helpful in the, in the long run for me. So maybe I'll make something work. So maybe I'll just transfer my situation. I'll change my environment with her and tell her to, you know, come two hours earlier or. Sorry, yeah, earlier than what the time is. So then by the time she comes, she's on time even though she's freaking out because she thinks she's late and she's relieved. Oh my God. Oh my God. I'm gonna save a really. If we have time, I'm save the best thing for last in regards to being smartass and just making it work because. Okay, spoiler alert. The TED Talk. I was 30 minutes late for it.
- [30:15]
A
Oh my gosh.
- [30:17]
B
I can't make this up.
- [30:19]
A
You're making me anxious.
- [30:21]
B
Oh my gosh. Imagine. But did you watch it? Did you like it? Yeah, absolutely. Hey, I rose to the occasion, but it was so stressful. It was traumatic. Here is what happened. I was the last speaker, so my call time to get on stage was 7:41. All right, but. So I was there actually on time. I was there at 5, watched other speakers. But during the intermission, bad habit of biting my nails. I just had to go to the store to get some nails. So at 6:30 you were sitting in.
- [30:50]
A
The wings waiting, and then you had this thought, I'm going to go get my nails done.
- [30:53]
B
No, no, no. I was going to go to the store to get some nails, put them on just real quick, you know, because I knew that I'll be talking, the camera's on me and I later I'll be like, oh, my nails. Right. Literally. Because actually that Houston Irvine, the store I went to was like five minute drive from the venue. So the, the, the break was from like, you know, 6:30, like a half hour break or something. And they want to go with the rest of the speakers and I'm at 7:40. So then I get to the store. Of course I, I'm not just there for the nails. Of course I'm looking at other stuff and everything and then I get there to pay for it. And of course I had to transfer money over to the, the right account because it wasn't, it wasn't in there.
- [31:29]
A
Oh my God.
- [31:30]
B
This is what happened. So, okay, finally got my stuff ready to go, but then my battery dies on my phone and I need a map because I'm not familiar with this place. Right. Oh my gosh. I started driving, thinking I was heading towards there. I was lost. I was heading towards my house, like home, which is like 40 minutes away. I could not call anyone. I was like, oh my God. This is. I was going off and on in the freeway and everything. It was getting dark. Exactly. Oh my gosh. So the whole time I'm a strong woman of faith. I was like, lord, have mercy, Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy, Lord. I'm just driving like, Lord, guide me, have mercy. I go, one quarter's dead end. I'm like, I started screaming and this is what happened. Oh, gosh. Eventually, 30 minutes after my call time, I walk in and I see people leaving because I was the last speaker and I wasn't there. And they're leaving, they're walking out. And I see the rest of my other speakers holding their flowers and taking pictures, you know, with the sign and everything, because they did great. And so I did because I was like, oh my gosh. And the speaker, you know, the team that supported me in it, they. They liked my talk and I liked it. That whole time I was struggling. I was not practicing anything. I was not running through my head anything. I was just like praying. So I begged them, I said, please let me do it. But then by this time, all this, the setup for the like, the, the images, like the projection, they already got that put away. So whatever slides I had, I couldn't use it because they already that that person had gone home or something and then usually put the microphone lapel on, but then they didn't have that. So I went up there, handheld mic, no slides, and delivered the talk. So listen, people, it's not about what's important or not truly. Really and truly. If someone who knows me would have been like, where are you going? Put your butt down here. But reality is, I only had one person that really, really knew me. But she. I just met her like a week before, long story. She was a nurse who rear ended me on the freeway. And she said, she keeps doing this. And I'm like, do you have adhd? She's like, I think I do. And I invited her to go to the talk and she went to the talk. I just met her we porch. But she didn't know like that, so. So if she would have known, she probably would grab my behind and had to sit down, right? Yeah. Wow. But she. Well, here's the deal. There's constantly. I paid a tax word because on the video, if you notice, you have to turn it up. It's really the. The sound quality is bad on the original one that's on the TEDx site. But then she recorded from her own cell phone and her cell phone version is clear and audible, but there's no picture. So then they. The pictures I had, they added it after the fact, you know what I mean? On the screen I just put the.
- [34:15]
A
Transcription or the captions on and it, you know, that helps to see the.
- [34:18]
B
Fact I have to do that. There'll be so much people probably that would view it if that they didn't have that struggle with it though. You know what I mean?
- [34:24]
A
Oh my gosh. That. Because it's not just that, oh, I have this new idea. I'm going to go do this. I have a break. I have plenty of time.
- [34:33]
B
Right?
- [34:34]
A
No sense of time. Then there's. Didn't have your. Didn't even realize that your phone was on zero right then. Totally getting lost. I mean, it is getting dark on top of another. That is the craziest ADHD story. Okay, you need to do a second TED Talk and it needs to be all about that. That is insane.
- [34:57]
B
Part two. Part two. Yeah, but see, it's a real thing and everyone's. Everyone's situation is different. But it goes to show that the support is necessary. Knowing yourself, I was. I guess I should have known, but I was always thinking, you know what? You know what? Don't listen to yourself. Yourself is going to lie to you. You don't have enough time. You do not have enough time. You just don't. Right? Tell yourself so.
- [35:18]
A
Right.
- [35:18]
B
It's. Honestly, I feel like ADHD is like you have a bad kid and the parent that knows what to do, that bad kid just nagged and wants their way all the time. But you as a parent, you have to put your foot down and get them in line. You know what I mean? They want to have fun. They want to do what they want to do. I would say how each people can use a cat. You know, we can use a cat.
- [35:37]
A
Like neurotypicals can use it as well. Yeah, I use that the opposite way too. Like when there is someone that, let's say my husband and he wants me to do something and I don't want to do it. You know, it's that thinking beyond myself about, okay, well, wait a minute though. Look at all the stuff he does for you, right? You want this to be a good relationship. It is give and take. So, right. I'm just gonna suck it up and do it. Not for me, but my intention is so strong for him.
- [36:06]
B
So in your situation, you can say the c. The observation or the capturing is you notice that you don't always want to do what he wants to do. Right. And then a is analyze. Analyze. Why is that? Is it that you're not interested or is boring? But then you tell yourself, well, I want to support him. So you transform and you find something within what he's doing that you do like and just imagine make it up or something to make you want to do it.
- [36:30]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Because we have to make it our own. Him telling me to do something is not going to work if I don't want to do it. So I have to find something inside myself that creates that intention. Right. That. That desire to do it. That is beyond me.
- [36:46]
B
Yes.
- [36:47]
A
So that's the cat. That's the CAT acronym.
- [36:51]
B
Yeah. Then you transform your behavior to, you know, get what he needs. What? You know, to get the goal achieved for you to have harmony with him. But on a second.
- [37:00]
A
Because then I get stuff too. Okay. So Dr. Kolaki, you also advocate for doctors and medical learners with adhd. And I often feel like the two areas that are the most backward, that really should be leading the neurodiversity charge are medicine and law.
- [37:24]
B
I agree with that.
- [37:25]
A
You know, I know in both medical school and law school, like, they just make everything so difficult as far as for those of us with ADHD or neurodivergencies. So I am curious, why is this work so important? And what do you think educators and peers need to understand about supporting future and present neurodivergent doctors? You don't need another planner or productivity hack. You need a system that works for your brain. One that helps you stop second guessing and start trusting yourself. My patented six step program, your ADHD brain is a ok. Gives you the tools to work with your brain, not against it. So you can finally follow through on what truly matters to you. Click the link in the first line of this episode's description to learn more or book a discovery call. Now let's get back to the show.
- [38:32]
B
Or even lawyers too, right? I mean, yeah. And yesterday I met with two lawyers. One had ADHD and the other one didn't. And it was beautiful because the one who didn't, when he met me, he was like, how are you a doctor? So he had no clue how that the two can go together. And then the one who had it, he broke it down. I love anybody who has adhd. You're my family. I don't care. I don't have to know you. So when he told me he had it, I high five him immediately. And he was able to break it down to the other lawyer about how it works. And he also kind of shared his own coping skills with it. So I think it's important because we're not going anywhere. And so the educators need to realize that the population at large includes neurodivergent learners or neurodivergent people. So that means within that, you're going to have professionals that have neurodivergent. Like, you know, they have ADHD and other things that are not like you, but they're still capable. So if you want to not stay in your own world and realize that you're not the only one here, you have to learn how to accommodate. And accommodate is not baby. Accommodate is making things fair. It's leveling the playing field. Think of it as, you have a starting line, and the neurodivergent people are already a little behind that line because of biology that we didn't ask for. All the neurotypicals are already at the starting line. So when you accommodate and you do the things that help that learner, whether it's a law student or a doctor, you're just putting them at the starting line so they can start with everyone else. You're not putting them ahead of everyone else. You're not giving them an extra advantage. You're putting them at the same line. And so the reason that's important is because society as a whole, which is better. I do so well with my neurodivergent patients. I do well with all my patients. Sorry, that's just my gift.
- [40:12]
A
I can see why.
- [40:13]
B
That's my dopamine. Me being a doctor is my dopamine. Like, yeah, only I can do, right?
- [40:18]
A
You're making a difference every single time you meet one of your patients. Right? You're making a difference.
- [40:22]
B
I love them because. And the thing is, because they know me, they know I'm going to be late. I'm sorry. I'm not sorry because I'm me. And the thing is, good things come to those weight. If it's that bad and you really want go somewhere else, I'm not gonna be funny, but I cannot change me. But when you. When you do wait, you're gonna be grateful that you waited. It's gonna be worth it. You know what I mean? Yeah. So they have grace. Even, like, if I'm putting prescription in and they're talking like, hold on one second, let me do this for you. This for you. This is for you. Hold on. That's for you.
- [40:51]
A
No one's gonna fight for them more than you will. I Can already tell that.
- [40:55]
B
Yeah. So. So back to why it's important is because, you know, in order for our society to just be all overall whole and healthy, you have to realize everyone is not like you. So you understand that and include those who are different from you. We just progress as a whole. There's less. There's less hate and there's less crime and there's less division, and we just get things more done. You know what I'm saying? I just. I think it's important and just get out of your butt. Like, get out your head. Like, you're not. You're not everything, you know? And the reality is I have really impacted a lot of people without. Or adhd and then expressing myself because they don't feel alone. And honestly, I like people to look at me. I have all these layers. I'm African American, I'm female, I have adhd, but at the same time, I'm a physician. So I'm experiencing all these worlds. What's considered high class, what's considered low class, whatever with my race. You know what I'm saying? Like, I got everything. But. But that's like the paradox, you know, it's like I'm Schrodinger's cat. I'm there to lie. But they can all.
- [41:51]
A
No, it's that consistent inconsistency. Right. There are things you're so brilliant at, and then there are things that I don't want to do that. That's boring. That's like. I hate to say this, but kind of beneath me. I know how to do that. It sucks. I don't want to do it.
- [42:05]
B
Right.
- [42:06]
A
Well, I love that.
- [42:07]
B
Well, honestly, I don't think it's beneath me. It's just hard. I can't do it.
- [42:10]
A
Like, oh, I do. I do. There's certain things, like, I just hate doing it, you know, like laundry.
- [42:17]
B
Oh, I do hate that.
- [42:18]
A
I will do anything not to have to deal with that.
- [42:21]
B
Yeah, I do that. I actually have a service that picks up my laundry.
- [42:24]
A
Yeah, See? See what I mean?
- [42:25]
B
Yeah. And they deliver it.
- [42:27]
A
And I don't mean beneath me in that way. And.
- [42:29]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [42:30]
A
You know what I'm saying?
- [42:31]
B
I know what you mean.
- [42:32]
A
It's beneath my skills. Sorry.
- [42:34]
B
Yeah. But see, what I do is. What we have to do is we notice that we have challenges. You definitely have to highlight what you do have, acknowledge what you do have, because that's important. Because you can easily take for granted what you have because you're so focusing on what you don't have. You know what I mean? Like, honestly, if I wasn't a good doctor, I would have fired a long time ago for my job. Point blank, period. You know what I'm saying? Just reality is. And to be really transparent, if I was not a good doctor, I would not be on platforms because they would say, well, duh, you have adhd. That's why you suck. Right? I mean, I'm just keeping it real so that. That. Keep that in mind.
- [43:07]
A
But it's the opposite, right? And to me, that is why your work is so important. Because I can tell you that, like, I'm just thinking of my own doctor, who's general doctor, right? My husband's doctor, my daughter's doctor, my son's doctor, and now my doctor. He has adhd. He is the best doctor any of us have ever had. He pushes against the system and he fights for us. He has different ideas. He never lets anything slide. I am absolutely convinced that without him. He was examining my husband and he said, I just hear something weird in your heart. My husband had gone on for decades and nobody had ever said that. He went in and got tested. He had a congenital heart valve issue, which ended up leading to an aneurysm. He ended up having both repaired, so major open heart surgery, and he killed it. But without that doctor, he probably would have dropped dead from the aneurysm. You know, I think that the best doctors and lawyers, and frankly, anyone in a profession where they're passionate about it, they are the best you're gonna find because of interest. Right?
- [44:18]
B
Exactly. We're not gonna do anything we don't wanna do. Like, we're not. Like. I mean, not for long if we try to. I mean, I don't care how important it is. Do I really want that attention of being late all the time. No. If I was late for my residency interview, the one I. I was late for everything, the TED Talk, like. Like, oh, my gosh. And the thing is, if you have a problem with it, what can I do? Like, if that's your problem, so you're gonna miss out. I'm not gonna tell you it's your loss. You know what I mean? But I'm not like you. Yeah. You gotta realize that. Yeah. And here's the thing. Let's put it this way. If I was trying to be late, or I'll be eight times later than whatever I am, If I was trying to be late. You know what I'm saying?
- [44:58]
A
I remembered my question. My question was, you must not have been anxious at all for that TED Talk.
- [45:06]
B
Well, here's what I say. I said my message was bigger than my mess because I wanted to get it out there. I wanted it. I needed people to know that seeing is freeing. And it really has helped people to kind of get those who have adhd. Me, like, I have people who don't have it that kind of understood a lot better. And then also it helps them think about people. Well, I think my friend is kind of like that, you know, so then they can tell their friend or whatever, they can go get help. That's the really. So it was worth it to me. It was just like. And they believed in me, literally. And I'm trying to brag on myself. When I first presented my talk to the, to the organizers, they literally told me, we could put you on the stage tonight. You know, that's what they told me. They could be on tonight because they liked it. And so for them to have that confidence in me and for me to really like what I was doing or like my message, I had to do it. You know what I mean? I had to. So it's like that adrenaline just. It just really kicked in. It's like we can freak out. Then, I don't know, something just kicks in. It's time for business, you know, depending on how passionate you are about it. Right.
- [46:03]
A
It was that you had very low anxiety because you had so much confidence around your message and your ability to deliver it. So it was just like, okay, come on, hurry up. You know, it's my time. And it was too much time, right?
- [46:17]
B
It was too much time. It was.
- [46:20]
A
They need to put a bag over your head and just keep you. And then just.
- [46:26]
B
This one time, I'll accept the handcuffs. You have to just keep me. Take my key, tethered. The only time I'll accept it, okay? Just for my own good. Because we can be our own worst enemy. We can self sabotage a lot because we forget about the consequences. We don't remember what could. But no, this time, if I ever, any I'm ever allowed to do a talk again, I'm there early. I don't care what my nails look like. I don't, I don't care. I just. As long as I'm dressed okay, I have clothes on and I'm awake and I'm medicated. I'm a go. But forget the nails, you know?
- [46:59]
A
Okay, so what did you learn from that?
- [47:01]
B
Oh, yeah, forget the nails or just be patient. Just, just wait. Just. Your time is coming. Don't believe yourself. Don't, don't you don't have time. I don't care what you say. You do not have time. Because I always have to be ready for stuff going wrong because it always does. So I wasn't realizing that this is a possibility of something going wrong. But, no, we don't think about that. We think we can do it all well.
- [47:19]
A
But, I mean, it makes sense. It's five minutes away. You had 30 minutes. You just like. It makes sense.
- [47:25]
B
Yeah. More than 30 minutes in my mind, because it feels a 30 minute break. I mean, I might miss a little bit of the other person speaking, but it's not me, so. Right.
- [47:32]
A
And you charger in your car.
- [47:35]
B
My charger sucks in my car. It's horrible. It's. It's horrible. I need to.
- [47:39]
A
Okay, so I hope you bought a new charger, but one of those ones, you know, that you can just stick in your bag.
- [47:44]
B
Yeah.
- [47:46]
A
And it has all the different cables you could possibly need. I feel like I need to get one for you.
- [47:52]
B
I will lose it. I promise you. I will lose it. Oh, no.
- [47:56]
A
Okay, Dr. Kolaki, we are wrapping up here. Let's do a lightning round with you. I could talk to you literally all day.
- [48:04]
B
Yes.
- [48:05]
A
What is your favorite ADHD hack?
- [48:07]
B
Look back everywhere I go. Turn around and look back because I'm going to leave something. Just turn around. I don't care where you are. Turn around.
- [48:16]
A
My daughter just lost her AirPods. You know, the ones for your ears. Her phone in the same week. And she can track them. She can. She's in New York City and she can literally see it moving around. Drives her nuts. She's. She even has an address. I'm like, on the door.
- [48:35]
B
I don't do buds. I can't. Those are not.
- [48:37]
A
Yeah, I can't either. I. I'm not wearing them, but I have the. Oh, actually, I just love them. The Ray Ban glasses. Have you tried them? The meta one?
- [48:45]
B
No. No.
- [48:46]
A
Oh, my God, they're amazing. This is a total ADHD divergence. But they have the sound in the earpiece. It is so good. The sound and the quality of the lenses is so good. I.
- [48:58]
B
That's good. Oh, and I do have four pairs or a pair of glasses.
- [49:01]
A
Okay, so that's. Is that a hack?
- [49:03]
B
That's a hack. Because.
- [49:05]
A
Yeah, I know.
- [49:06]
B
I don't have them all ever at one time. You know? I know. Okay.
- [49:09]
A
The last thing you lost, and I.
- [49:10]
B
Didn'T even know it. My debit card.
- [49:12]
A
Oh, God.
- [49:13]
B
Debit card. But let me tell you something. So this is what happened the laundry service. Right, the laundry service I'm talking about. They collected my clothes one night and then the. They gave it to me like the following night. I didn't realize I'm a big up in their car rents. They don't pay me anything. They had my debit card and $20 in a little bag because it was in my clothes. You know what I'm saying? I didn't know I lost it, though. I didn't.
- [49:36]
A
But thank God they were honest and kind integrity.
- [49:39]
B
I appreciated that. Yeah.
- [49:41]
A
Oh my gosh, that is hilarious.
- [49:42]
B
Because I wasn't aware of it. I don't know. I don't know if. Does that count? I did lose it, but I didn't know I lost it.
- [49:47]
A
Yeah, that counts. That counts. One system. You will never give up.
- [49:52]
B
Body doubling. That's. That's the only way I can really get my work done. Like boring notes and stuff. It's. It's a. Must I try it without it? I mean, of course I've lived life without it, but I mean, literally, let me tell you how effective it is for me. I would take two days to finish like six documents on my own body doubling. I remember one time, within 50 minutes, I got 12 things done. Yeah, no, it took two days without it. So I don't care if I need that. I don't care if nobody in the world does it. I need accountability. It is what it is.
- [50:20]
A
Yeah. I can even body double in a coffee shop where there's. As long as there's other people around me, you know, they don't know me, I don't know them, but it works.
- [50:27]
B
So.
- [50:28]
A
Dr. Kalaki, you are such a delight. Where can people find you if they want to know more about you and what you do and they want to find your TED Talk and give it all to us?
- [50:39]
B
Oh my gosh. First of all, about my TED Talk. So first of all, my. My Instagram is this underscore MD_ Kalaki. Now I will say I'm not consistent, first of all. And whatever I put on is whatever I put a foot on. You know, I've accepted that I'm me. And if I really want to do it, of course I'll pay somebody and do all this algorithm stuff and AI. I just do what I want to do. It's not going to ruin me. Okay. So. But if you want to go on there, you'll just see a lot of different videos about me, about mental health. You know, the TEDx talk is on the TEDx website, like the YouTube page. You know, just. TEDx. Kalaki Clark, seeing is spring. And I'm asking your listeners, and even if when they, you know, later on the future, two years from now, three years from now, go look at the talk, share the talk with those who don't get it. Those who do get it. It'll help. Just open their eyes, see themselves better, see you better, and just be more harmonious. Now what? You have to turn all the way up. We already discussed why put the captions on. Okay, don't give up on it. Because we can get impatient with this stuff not going right. It's worth the wait. It's worth the turn up. But if anyone. Actually, how about this? If someone reaches out to me, anybody who, like, sends me a message and say they saw me on the show, I will personally send you the. The link that is audible. And the reason why I don't want to pass that around too much is because I want to get numbers.
- [52:02]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [52:03]
B
That's the thing. So when I share with somebody, I give them both. I'm like, all this explanation. This is the one on the site just to say hi, and then this one you can actually hear.
- [52:10]
A
Okay, that makes sense.
- [52:11]
B
I'm just asking listeners to check on.
- [52:14]
A
That one and click on that link.
- [52:16]
B
And then, yes, if you want to hear without pictures, but. And you also, you know, I just always have this extra dialogue on the side, which most tech talks don't have it. But I'm just. Kalaki, you'll understand what I'm saying in my little back. My little back talks and stuff. Like, my little. My side talks are not really supposed to be there, but it was live. You couldn't stop me.
- [52:32]
A
It's hard. They can't stop me. It's live.
- [52:36]
B
Reach out to me if you're interested. I mean, if you don't care, just look at it. Turn it up. If you're really interested, then. Then, Honestly, I know it might sound bad, but 80s years, we like feedback. We like to know that we're actually helping people.
- [52:46]
A
Dr. Kolaki, thank you so much for spending time with us here today. You are a delight.
- [52:51]
B
Thank you so much, Tracey. You too. You too. Thank you for having me.
- [52:55]
A
Absolutely. So that's what I have for you for this week. If you like this episode with Dr. Kolaki, please let us know by leaving a review. Our goal is to change the conversation around adhd, helping as many women as we possibly can learn how their ADHD brains work so that they, too, may discover their amazing strengths. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you here next week. You've been listening to the ADHD for Smartass Women podcast. I'm your host, Tracy Otsuka. Join us at adhd for smartwomen.com where you can find more information on my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women and my patented you'd ADHD Brain is a okay system to help you get unstuck and fall in love with your brilliant brain. Your ADHD brain is not broken, you just don't have the right tools. If you are sick of feeling behind overwhelmed or like you're always playing catch up, my patented program, your ADHD Brain is a OK Academy will give you the system that you need to finally take control and move forward. It's designed specifically for how our ADHD brains actually work. No forcing, no shame, just a real blueprint that shows you exactly who you are, what truly matters to you, and what you should do next with your life. For more information, find the link in the first line of this episode's description. Look, you already have everything you need. Let me show you how to use it.