EP. 358: Sit, Stay, Breathe: ADHD Brilliance in Dog Training with Devene Godau

Summary

Podcast: ADHD for Smart Ass Women with Tracy Otsuka
Episode: EP. 358: Sit, Stay, Breathe: ADHD Brilliance in Dog Training with Devene Godau
Date: November 12, 2025
Host: Tracy Otsuka
Guest: Devene Godau

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Episode Overview

This episode explores how ADHD traits—creativity, empathy, adaptability—can be transformational strengths in both dog training and life. Tracy Otsuka and professional dog trainer Devene Godau delve into the intersection between neurodivergent thinking and animal training, highlight the unique challenges and superpowers associated with ADHD, and draw fascinating analogies between motivating dogs and motivating ADHD brains. Devene shares her personal and professional journey, discusses science-backed training methods, addresses common owner frustrations, and offers practical advice for both dog lovers and those navigating ADHD.

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Key Discussion Points

Devene’s ADHD Journey and Diagnosis

• Diagnosis Story ([04:18]): Devene describes her late-in-life ADHD revelation, catalyzed by the psychiatric evaluation of her children. "I was sitting in the psychiatrist room...and I was like, yes, yes...Are you answering for your child or for yourself? And I said, both."
• Impact of Diagnosis ([05:49]): The shift to self-compassion and pragmatic problem-solving post-diagnosis. “I immediately had more compassion for myself and it made life so much easier.”
• Medication and Academic Retrospective ([06:12]): She reflects on how medications helped her and the lingering frustration at a late diagnosis: “If only I had taken this in college...I could have done more.”
• The “Good Girl Who Talks” ([09:35]): Devene talks about being a talkative, bright student punished for excessive talking, not poor academics or behavior. “Teachers would tell me all the time... stop talking. And I would instantly get super embarrassed.”
• College and Early Work Life ([12:18]): Journalism as a path of least resistance because it didn’t require math, and her joys and anxieties around public-facing roles.

Dog Training as a Neurodivergent Path

• From Journalism to Dog Training ([21:27]): How Devene’s career transitioned from journalism and marketing into professional dog training, initially driven by her love for dogs and her experience with her greyhound with separation anxiety.
• Scent Detection Dogs Explained ([21:55], [23:01]):
  • What “green dogs” are—potential working dogs pre-trained for scent detection.
  • Dog breeds suited: “Our lines mostly were hunting dogs...her tenacity, she will work until she passes out.”
  • Training techniques: Starting puppies with games, identifying motivation (toys vs treats), and imprinting on key scents.
  • Practical challenges: A dog’s confidence, the need for creative outlets, and how physical activity (swimming) became a critical “enrichment” to enable focus—paralleling ADHD needs in humans.

Notable Quote

• “Sniffing is magical...I equate it to meditative breathing.” – Devene ([23:23])

Enrichment, Motivation, and Canine "ADHD"

• Parallel Between ADHD and Dog Motivation ([28:20], [30:33]):
  • Dogs’ focus and distractibility is akin to ADHD. “If you have that outlet, you can focus now. That dog is now working on the East Coast. So it worked for him.”
  • High-energy, high-drive dogs (like scent dogs) can be “annoying to live with” if not given appropriate challenges.
  • On the upside: “I am not a nine to five girl...that job...really did fit my ADHD personality. It was always exciting.” ([32:56])

Clicker Training and Modern Behavioral Science

• Greyhound with Separation Anxiety as Origin Story ([34:17]): Devene’s first greyhound couldn’t be trained with traditional methods and panicked when left alone, propelling her into science-based, positive training.
• Clicker Training Demystified ([39:27]):
  • “The marker marks the behavior that we want. It gives us a tool to communicate. Yes, that's exactly what I want.”
  • Clickers as communication—and confidence—tools, especially for rescued dogs and those with past negative conditioning.

Notable Quotes

• “After we introduce the clicker...I will often have reports that after that they play for the first time.” – Devene ([40:07])

• “She was that impressed by your patience.” ([38:08], re: why she was recruited as a volunteer trainer)

• Are Some Dogs Untrainable? ([43:02]): Judith on “stubborn” breeds (like shih tzus), and how “unmotivated” is a kinder and more productive lens than “stubborn.” Parallels drawn to how ADHD individuals are misunderstood.

Notable Quote

• “When people tell me my dog is stubborn, I'm like, you say stubborn, I see unmotivated. How do we motivate them? Which is exactly the conversations we're having in the ADHD world too.” – Devene ([45:14])

Anxiety, Emotional Mirroring, and Dog Behavior

• Dogs as Mirrors for Owner Emotion ([53:15]):
  • They pick up their owners’ anxiety, often responding with stress, reactivity, or agitation.
  • In class, breathwork and relaxation for owners are prioritized so dogs don’t absorb tension. “I'll put breath work into class. Like, okay, we're gonna throw some treats on the ground...you can take a deep breath.”
• Gamification for Human ADHD Brains ([62:11]):
  • Suggests creative and randomizing methods to keep training engaging for both dog and owner.
  • “Let’s give you a deck of cards with different behaviors on it. Draw a card, go do that behavior!”

The Power and Importance of Sniffing ([64:04])

• Sniffing as Self-Soothing:
  • “Sniffing for a dog actually builds production of serotonin...it's a self-soothing exercise.”
  • Allowing “sniffaris” (let dogs lead and sniff on walks) can be far more enriching than forced, brisk walks.

Notable Quote

• “20 minutes of sniffing will equal about an hour of walks...even my senior shepherd...comes in and she's exhausted.” ([65:57])
• “They're getting all that information...it's a postcard from the world.” ([67:00])

Science, Resources, and Workarounds

• Resource for Clicker Training ([67:45]): Karen Pryor Academy is recommended as the best resource globally for learning clicker techniques.
• Devene's ADHD Workaround ([68:33]):
  • “My number one rule as an ADHD, it's neurodivergent, is to have quiet time in the morning with my coffee...I make sure I have those stuffed Kongs or beef cheeks...that will keep them busy for that half an hour.”

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Memorable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• “No one ever made a difference by being too little.” – Tracy ([02:57])
• “I was the good girl that happened to talk.” – Devene ([11:25])
• “I wanted to go into zoology...but journalism didn’t require math and I could not focus on math.” – Devene ([06:37])
• “ADHD women are my people, and I’m here to acknowledge, support, and cheer them on.” – Tracy ([02:20])
• “Working with scent detection dogs is...watching dogs have so much fun locating things.” – Devene ([24:57])
• “You say stubborn, I see unmotivated. How do we motivate them?” – Devene ([45:14])
• “They pick up anxiety a lot.” – Devene ([53:15])
• “Let’s give you a deck of cards with different behaviors on it. Draw a card...just to make it more fun.” – Devene ([62:11])
• “20 minutes of sniffing equals about an hour of walks.” – Devene ([65:57])
• “My number one workaround is...frozen bones in the freezer...so I get to sit there blissfully with my coffee, watching my morning news.” – Devene ([68:33])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:18] – Devene's ADHD diagnosis story
• [21:27] – Transition from journalism to dog training
• [23:23] – Scent detection dogs, training, and motivation
• [39:27] – Clicker training explained and its impact
• [45:14] – Reframing “stubborn” to “unmotivated” in both dogs and ADHD
• [53:15] – How dogs mirror their owners' emotional states
• [62:11] – Gamifying dog training for ADHD brains
• [65:57] – The science and value of sniffing for dogs
• [67:45] – Resources for clicker training
• [68:33] – Devene’s top ADHD workaround

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Further Resources & Where to Find Devene

• Devene’s new blog and resources: distracteddogowners.com
• In-person classes (Metro Detroit): K9 Turbo Training, Ferndale, MI
• Clicker training certification: Karen Pryor Academy
• Tracy’s book & ADHD program: ADHD for Smart Ass Women Website

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Tone and Takeaways

Tracy and Devene’s conversation is candid, humorous, empathetic, and full of actionable advice. The episode is a celebration of difference—both in brains and breeds—and champions science-backed training, self-compassion, and “gamifying” life to leverage one’s natural strengths. Listeners, whether dog owners or ADHDers, will find resonance in reframing struggle as opportunity and in the reminder that joy, creativity, and connection (with dogs or people) are always possible.

Transcript

[A]

Before we dive in, I just want to remind you this podcast is sponsor free and it's been this way for five years. I do it because I love it. So if you're interested in supporting my work and you'd like to learn how to fall in love with your ADHD brain, you can find the link to my youy ADHD Brain is a OK Academy, my patented program in the first line of this episode's description. Look, your brain is not disordered. The problem is no one gave you its manual. But I can and I will. Now let's get on with the show. Richard Branson, Michael Phelps, Justin Timberlake, James Carville. Wait a minute. Where are the women? Greta Gerwig, Lisa Ling, Audra McDonald, Simone Biles. That sounds like a list of highly successful titans in a variety of industries. They all have adhd, but you don't hear much about that now, do you? You know what else you don't hear about are the 43% of people with ADHD who are in excellent mental health. Why aren't we talking about them and what they are doing? I'm your host, Tracy Adsuka, and that's exactly what we do here. I'm a lawyer, not a doctor, a lifelong student, and now the author of my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women. I'm also a certified ADHD coach and the creator of youf ADHD Brain is aok, a patented system that helps ADHD women just like you get unstuck and fall in love with their brilliant brains. Here we embrace our too muchness and we focus on our strengths. My guests and I credit our ADHD for some of our greatest gifts. And to those who still think they're too much, too impulsive, too scattered, too disorganized, I say no one ever made a difference by being too little. Hello, I am your host, Tracy Outsuka. Thank you so much for joining me here for another episode of ADHD for Smartass Women. You know that my purpose is is always to show you who you are and then inspire you to be it. In the thousands of ADHD women that I've had the privilege of meeting, I've never met a one, not one that wasn't truly brilliant at something. So of course I am just delighted to introduce you to Deveney Godow. Deveney Godow is a certified professional dog trainer with more than 25 years of experience working with everyone from family pets to professional scent detection dogs. She's also the creator of Distracted Dog Lover, a community for neurodivergent dog Owners who want compassionate, real world training advice that actually works. As a trainer with ADHD herself, DeVoni blends humor, empathy and science based strategies to help people and their dogs connect with more ease and a lot more joy. I first met Deveney when she asked me to share some neurodivergent friendly tips for training your dog. And I was instantly struck by how aligned her approach is with everything that I teach. Self awareness, compassion, and designing systems that fit the brain that you actually have. So welcome, Deveney. Did I get all of that right?

[B]

You did. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

[A]

Well, I am delighted to have you. So what we always do in our podcast is we talk about our diagnoses first, because I think what happens is it helps you connect with our listeners. You know how it is when you feel like, oh, I have something in common with this person, we actually listen more intently. So can you share your diagnoses?

[B]

Sure. I have struggled my whole life with paying attention, but as a child, I was very quiet and I got all my work done so nobody ever suspected anything. And when my children, I have three children, when they started to struggle with several mental health issues, being neurodivergent, we decided to get them tested. And I was sitting in the psychiatrist room with my child and he kept asking them questions like, you know, do you drift off when you're trying to pay attention? Do you have trouble finishing tasks? And I was like, yes, yes. And he looks at me and says, are you talking? Are you answering for your child or for yourself? And I said, both. Right. And going through the whole list of questions, I think I was more aligned than my child with the diagnoses. And he looked at me and said, you know, I don't want to diagnose you myself. I work with children. But he sent me to a colleague who very quickly said, how have you been doing this your whole life? But it was just the way it was. In the 70s and 80s, no one suspected girls of having ADHD. So since then I tried medications and just having that understanding, knowing that there was nothing wrong with me per se. Right. That there was. My brain just worked differently. I immediately had more compassion for myself and it made life so much easier. Right. There's still struggles for sure, but now instead of frustration, I know to look for solutions.

[A]

Yeah, that understanding, it changes everything, doesn't it?

[B]

It really does. It really does. And I think what I found now as a dog trainer, right, working with the public, I want everybody, I want all of my colleagues to know, right? When someone's running late, it's not because they don't care, Right? So we'll get into all that, I'm sure. But it has made me look at everything differently.

[A]

So how long ago was that when you were diagnosed?

[B]

That was probably about six years. And once I started the medication, I remember saying to my psychiatrist, if only I had taken this in college, right? I was on academic probation for so long because my success in high school was due to my parents standing over my shoulder like, do this, do this, do this, do this, right? And it worked. It probably exasperated my anxiety, but it did work, right?

[A]

It got you into college.

[B]

It sure did. And that was the expectation I was going to go to college. And when I went there and I realized I don't have to go to class, no one's checking on that, no one's taking attendance, it was a whole new world. And I learned very quickly that's not the answer. That's not going to keep me successful either. But I remember saying to my psychiatrist, if I'd had these plans, if I'd had the meds, you know, I could have done more. I would have kept going to school. I wanted to go into zoology. I have a journalism degree mainly. I do like to write, as people read my blog will see, but mainly because journalism didn't require math and I could not focus on math. So I remember saying, I am so angry that it took this long. And she told me to snap out of it. She's like, we can't go back in time. You know, in the early 90s, nobody was really looking at a lot of women, especially with good grades, being neurodivergent. And we just would not have known how to, how to deal with it at that point.

[A]

So how did you get through school? And I'm talking college now.

[B]

College was tough. I took basic math because I decided I'm gonna take math in case I don't want to get stuck with journalism. I had to take the basic math class three times, three times to pass it. And so the first year I was on academic probation probably the first two years. And then when I went into my program and I was a student journalist in high school, I had a lot of skills in that department and a lot of interest. So once I got into my program, I was so micro focused and I would, you know, work on my homework then 12 hours a day. So I thought, well, I found the solution. I've worked through it. I've grown out of it, right? Grown out of my attention Issues when really it was just I was doing something I like to do.

[A]

The problem was the math getting past the math. Were you diagnosed with something like dyscalculia? But I'm curious if that really was what the problem was.

[B]

No. Although that is interesting, because the testing I went through was, I think, fairly quick. I think they knew fairly quickly because my children were diagnosed and they said, oh, it's hereditary. Right. So, no, my diagnosis really was ADHD with some anxiety and depression. Right. But that was all manageable. And even the depression, I think, was exasperated by the ADHD because the meds I took for depression really didn't do a lot for me. It was. They put me on Adderall, and that was what really made life brighter. Right.

[A]

Is that still true today? So you're one of the lucky ones where it really works.

[B]

It is. In fact, I was very concerned, I still kind of am to some extent, about being addicted to it. You hear so many stories. So I take it very rarely, like maybe once or twice a week. I try not to take it daily because I don't want to become dependent on it. But I think I know if I have a day that I know is going to be tough to get through, I have a plan.

[A]

Wonderful. So I want to know, Deveney, what you were like as a child.

[B]

I was so quiet and shy, right. All through elementary school, we talked about my name, right. Nobody could say my name right. And I had a hard time correcting, especially adults. Right. I just was so timid. And one of the reasons is I was so afraid to speak in school. I was afraid to get wrong answers. I was afraid to mispronounce things. Right. So it was my turn to read during Readers Theater. I would clam up and get super scared. And then once middle school hit, right. Once puberty hit, I just started talking and never stopped. Right. I was always in honors classes. And I remember in eighth grade, going into high school, asking my English teacher to sign off on my high school honors form, and she said no. I'm like, why? She said, you talk too much. You need to be able to focus in those classes.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. So what happened?

[B]

I ended up staying the regular track of English. It's funny, now my kids are like, they can opt in. My son just went into honors history. And I'm like, I don't think you're ready for that workload. And his counselor said, no, but they're like, oh, no, the kids can take what they want. And I'm like, I'm Kind of glad, though. I would have put myself in all honors classes and probably been a mess. So I. I didn't fight it at much at the time, but it didn't stop. My. It was one of those sticky notes in the back of my head. I'm like, okay, well, talking too much, that's gonna hold me back, so I'm gonna stop. Well, we know that didn't happen, right? So we know that didn't happen. And now that I know more, I'm kind of glad it didn't. Right? But it was just one more thing that I just thought, like, okay, I'm not doing that right, too. So I was trying very hard to be quiet. It didn't happen. It didn't happen. Anyone from high school will tell you I still talked all through school.

[A]

Were you the kind of student, though, you know, were you annoying? Were you constantly getting in trouble, or were you a good girl, but you just happened to talk?

[B]

I was the good girl that happened to talk. Teachers would tell me all the time, you know, Ms. Darovitch, that's my maiden name, Ms. Darvage, stop talking. And I would instantly get super embarrassed. I hated having attention called to myself, called to myself at all. But then I. So I'd sit there and think I'd have to concentrate. Okay, don't talk. Don't talk. Don't talk. And then something would pop in my head. And if I was sitting, like, in chemistry with a lab partner, inevitably, I'd lean over and tell them a joke or tell them my latest thought because I was so afraid it would leave my head. Right? So. So it was. It was tough. You know, inevitably, my parents were told, she talks too much. She talks too much. And, you know, and I couldn't disagree. That was absolutely true.

[A]

So you got the. The comments on your report card that you disrupted the class.

[B]

Yes, yes, I see those with my children now sometimes, too.

[A]

What happened after you graduated from college?

[B]

After college. And it's interesting, because I had worked all through college at a kennel. I knew I loved dogs. I always begged for a new dog, a new puppy for Christmas. And my parents just. They didn't want the work, right? And so we had one dog growing up. And then I. My mom sent me to go work at a kennel, thinking, if you can deal with 40 barking dogs, that should kill this drive, right? Which, you know, would make sense, but it didn't. I wanted to take every dog home.

[A]

So, gosh, it got even worse.

[B]

It did. And everybody said, why aren't you gonna be A vet? Why aren't you going to be a vet? Because I went to Michigan State, which is a huge vet school, and I was afraid of the science and the math, right? And I had had a lot of success in journalism in high school. I was one of the top 12 journalists in the state during my high school years. So I said, I'm gonna stick with that, right? I was really. The bottom line was I had talked about becoming a dog trainer. I talked to my boss at the kennel about becoming a dog trainer. But the expectation from my family was that I needed to go to college, right? And I didn't know now there's so many more options for dog trainers to go into animal behavior as a science, and there are so many great options that if I were in my 20s now, there are so many programs I could take. So I said, well, I'm just going to go into journalism then. So I went through journalism, and my other passion at that time was music. So in my mind, I said, I'm gonna go into journalism, and then I'm gonna go work for Rolling Stone. And, you know, that's what I'm gonna do for a living. And I remember in journalism school, them telling us, our professor saying, you know, the media is dying. Newspapers and magazines, they're dying. Because that was the beginning of the Internet. And they said, no, not every city is gonna need a daily anymore. We're all gonna get, you know, our news in one source. And I looked at them and said, it's never going to happen. There's people like my dad, who reads two or three papers every single day, right? But that doesn't make. My dad is 95 now, so we know that those people are going away. And exactly what happened, happened, right? So there weren't a lot of newspaper jobs. I never did get ambitious enough to go out to New York. In fact, one of my. One of my ADHD stories where I got. Where I had pure panic was I was working for a little newsletter and little news music newsletter in college, and they said, you really like 90s rap? What if we can get you Snoop Dogg's newest cd and maybe we can get. Maybe we can hook up an interview? And I was like, absolutely. It sounded great at the time, but every time I had to call his people to try and set it up, I froze. I just panicked, right? And I never made it happen. And my kids today say, see, only thing I'm disappointed in, mom, is that you could have met Snoop Dogg. You didn't make it happen. And I said, yeah, that's fair. Because I am also very disappointed. Right. It just. I absolutely froze. Right. And I knew things probably weren't going to progress. That shame kind of sat with me for a long time. And I think that's one of the reasons I didn't pursue news as much as taking my degree afterwards and going into marketing. I went into marketing for probably about five years, Right. Because it was just. It just seemed easier and more straightforward. And I will say my ADHD helped then, too, because if I found a product or a company that I liked, it was very easy to write press releases and hype them up. I still love to do that. That's what I do for the community theater as well, you know.

[A]

So you've mentioned theater a couple times. And that kind of, you know, when you juxtapose it against this kind of fear and being shy around calling Snoop Dogg and Snoop Dogg's people. It doesn't really fit.

[B]

No. Well, that was one of those things. My kids got me into theater. My daughter is an actress. She's an adult now, but when she was 5, we actually used theater. I put her into theater classes to help with a speech impediment. And it really did help. And she stuck. She loved it. She stuck. She's still doing it. And one day I was in the theater and local to us, we have this theater that does huge productions, 200 to 300 people, open casting. Right. They just want people to experience it. And I was sitting in the theater and the director comes up to me and says, you are here for every rehearsal, like for the last two years. Why aren't you on stage? And it is something I always wanted to do, but again, I was scared. But I will tell you, because there were 200 people on stage, I said, oh, you know, this is the perfect time to try it. I can hide behind all of these other people. And I got on stage and I never got off. And now I'm on the board of a local theater. Right. And I just love the creativity of it. It gives me a fantastic creative out. I hate studying lines. That's funny because, you know, you would think that's the main thing, but I love showing emotion. So I'm a great background. I add layers to productions. And now I'm mostly backstage. I do a lot of the marketing. I'm producing a radio show that. A radio play that we're doing right now. And I love, again, promoting unknown playwrights and promoting unknown works. So it's become. It's evolved into something bigger.

[A]

So I'M curious. I would love to do that kind of thing, but I have really poor working memory. And I tell the story often that when I was being melodramatic as a teenager, my father looked at me and said, you should be on a soap opera. And I remember thinking, I would love to be on a soap opera, but I could never. I mean those lines every single day. There's no way. And so I'm curious if your working memory is actually quite good and so you don't struggle with lines.

[B]

I do struggle with lines. When I. After I say one line, all I'm doing is listening for my next cue. Don't miss the cue. Don't miss the cue. Don't miss the cue, right? And then I one time paraphrased a line, and the band missed a whole cue to come in. And that is embedded in my mind, so it is not. I think it's one of the reasons I like playing background characters. You're never going to see me going for the lead. And I like being behind the scenes. I've really taken to stage managing because then I can feel like all of the actors are my kids, right? And I get to take care of them and help them and make them feel better if they forget a line. But it's interesting because my daughter, who is also neurodivergent, she can read a script and memorize it in one or two reads. And I remember telling her, because school was a struggle for her, too. Like, if I could find a script with all of the microbiology terms you need to know, next week, you'd ace it, right? It just. When she relates to a character, she commits. And I've always thought, like, why couldn't that be me? But I think I have other, you know, other skills. I get to. I get to emote, which is what I really like to do on stage. And I've always been told, like, well, your facials backstage are behind the scenes are fantastic. So. So I like to just react probably more than I like to recite. Okay?

[A]

So, like me, you struggle a little bit with the. With the working memory. And I think I'm even a little anxious, like, thinking, oh, my gosh, I need. Because I can paraphrase. I can. I know kind of what I'm supposed to say, and it probably would be funnier. But if I know I can't do that, because then I never even thought about it. You know, the person who's supposed to come in after you then misses their lines, I think that would make me more anxious and then I would totally forget what I'm supposed to say or I'd have it written on my hand or something.

[B]

Uh huh. No, that was horrifying. When the band didn't come in and the music director was a friend and he said, I've got you, but I'm like, I'm so thankful. But the next production. I'm not always. I have to get those lines when I know their cues. And so then you start drilling it. But that doesn't work when you're nervous. Right. It just goes right out the. Out of the head.

[A]

Absolutely not. That just makes it. Yeah. A lot worse. Okay, so the only thing I didn't ask you about your childhood and growing up and then we'll talk about why you're here is how are you socially? Did you have a best friend, good friends?

[B]

I did have a lot. I always had at least one best friend. And then in high school, I was in marching band and newspapers. So those people become like family. And people that go through trauma together tend to, you know, tend to bond. So I've always had, in fact, the best friend I have now. I met my first day of freshman year, so. Right. And she is incredibly neurotypical. So she probably looks a lot at what I do. Like, what is wrong with you? She doesn't say that to my face, but she, she. I sometimes have to explain my thought process to her, you know, so we've stayed together for, you know, this whole time. Mostly our love of music and the arts. Right. Bond us together. Mm. But there is a joke that because I talk to everybody and my. My thing in high school was always everybody was always my best friend. So people say, oh, so. And so I'm like, oh, they're one of my best friends. Everybody, you know, And I see my daughter do that sometimes now. And I'm like, why are you saying that? And my friend, my best friend says, that's you. That was what you were like at that age. I'm like, okay, I get it.

[A]

I love that. I love that. Okay, so let's start with the obvious. First question. How in the world did a journalism major end up training scent detection dogs? And maybe you need to explain to me what scent detection dogs are. Are they the dogs that go around looking for drugs at the airport? Because they freak me the hell out, not because drugs. But I'm always afraid I'm going to see someone, like some young kid, you know, who's going to get.

[B]

Right, Right. So scent detection works. So they are the dogs that we would Train what they call green dogs. So I had them from about eight weeks of age, actually birth in some cases, because I have a breeding dog from our program at home until about 10 to 12 months when they would go to our master trainer. And so our goal was to socialize and get doing some basic sniffing. So then a green dog is a dog that has the potential to sniff and all dogs do, but some dogs are much better at it than others. And he had the authority then at that point to train them on whatever our clients were asking for. So we did have, we worked with tsa. So those dogs were all going to be put on explosives, but they wanted to do that training themselves. So they would come and test our green dogs and they would hunt for toys, right? And then they would imprint the scents that they wanted back at their facility so he. We could do. My master trainer was certified in many disciplines. We mostly work with, with explosives, but we could also do narcotics, live fines, cadavers, things like that.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

And luckily I never got, I was never involved at that part. I, I have several friends that have been. And it's fascinating.

[A]

How do you know? I mean, obviously I think most dogs have this incredible ability to smell, right? Much more than human beings do. But how do you know which are. Is it from puppy?

[B]

It's their olfactory system, a sense of smell, but it is their olfactory system and they are, you know, they have such a high capacity. So every dog can smell, but a lot of dogs, they don't use it if they don't have to, right? So we would see some dogs. I would get notes when I first came into the job, I got notes on some dogs that like this dog searches with their eyes, right? So we wanted a dog nose to the ground or nose up in the air, catch that scent and try to isolate it, right? Try, try to find source. So if they were relying too much on their eyes, we would have to go back and try to get them to sniff, right? And so that's what I do. I do it with pet dogs all the time too. Because sniffing is magical, right? So one of the reasons I loved working with scent detection dogs is people, when I went from the pet dog world to the working dog world, would say, oh, we shouldn't be making dogs work. I'm like, we're not making these dogs do anything. They love it because when they're scenting and they're inhaling more, it is, I equate it to meditative breathing, right? Breath work in humans, you know, so they love It. And I have two dogs at home that would Smith. They would probably sniff all day long until they passed out from exhaustion because it is tiring too, you know, but they love it. So when you see a dog that goes into the training area and just their whole body language will change when you tell them to go find something and they will just start scanning the environment, it is amazing. It is. I could watch it all day long. And that was probably one of the favorite things. My favorite things I've ever done in my life is watching those dogs have so much fun locating things.

[A]

How do you train them, though? Okay, let's take explosives. So how do you train them to, number one, even know what they're looking for?

[B]

Like, how.

[A]

And are there certain breeds that are much better at this than other. Like hunting dogs?

[B]

We do our. So our lines mostly were hunting dogs. So the dog that I have at home, she's my personal dog now. She was a titled hunting dog. We. We bought her to breed because we thought her dogs are going to be great at that. But we also looked at her tenacity. She's a dog that would work all day long. The man who owned her before we did was like, she will work until she passes out. And that is still who she is, Right? So we wanted that tenacity. And then we just get them from a very young age. We would start them at eight weeks old playing nose games, like with treats in tubes and having them search for their meals. And so we wanted it to be a game. We wanted them to love it. And if they don't love it, I don't think that they can work for it. Right. And then the other thing in the working dog world is they want dogs that will work for toys because it's just easier on the job site. So most places. There are some places that will have the dog work for treats because when they find their hide, then they get to play. Right? And so we always took a look at the dogs, like, okay, what are they motivated by? Are they motivated by toys or are they motivated by treats? And that would depend on where they would go to. And then the thing with explosives is there's a lot of different ingredients that can go into. When we're talking homemade bombs, right? So we. I believe there's five. This was what my master trainer would do. Five main explosives that go into just about every bomb. So they would be taught on all of those. When they found it to market, they would sit, right? That's their. That's their mark, which is different. If you see a dog doing competition nose work, right? Where they're locating things like birch. Like birch essential oil is one of the oils that we'll do at a sport called nose work. We don't want those dog. They don't want those dogs to sit. And it's funny, when I bring my nose work into the. Into the training sessions, they're like, well, they have an end. You know, they have. They're sitting there, they have a final find. You know, they have a. And they're sitting for their find, and we don't want them doing that. But in the explosives worlds, we don't want them digging. So we have turning around and sitting, right? So that is their marker, right? That's. That's them telling us or their indication. That's them saying, I found something. You need to look it up, and then you need to pay me, right? So that's when they get their treats or their toys. But they are so natural at it, their brains can separate. When they're smelling a scent, their brains are already separating everything that's in there, right? So you can. So once. Once they know a specific explosive, if it's layered in, in a homemade bomb with other things, they can still pick.

[A]

It out, because what they'll try to do is put all kinds of other scents in there so that it kind of takes people or dogs off the trail.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, they could do that. Or just different. You know, they'll put shrapnel in it, Right. So it does more damage. Right. So there's all sorts of different things they could put in it. But if they can find just a trace amount of some of those explosive ingredients or some, you know, some of those explosives, the dog's gonna indicate on it, right? If they've been trained properly.

[A]

So can you tell then from the time a dog is a puppy, you know, like, I don't know, eight weeks old and older, that, okay, that dog is gonna be good at this?

[B]

I usually can. Sometimes I've been wrong. We had a dog that was testing, actually, we had a dog that was. That tested for tsa, that, based on other feedback we had, he was testing just as well as some dogs that they had selected. And he went into that. He was worried. Like, he. He was worried, and he had a. He showed fear that we hadn't seen before, going on to things like shaky tables. And so obviously, they need a dog that's. That's, you know, confident enough to go into airports, to go into, you know, if they're working in, like, around trains that whole building vibrates. So all of these things come to play. So that's what ended up washing him out. And then we do have some dogs that just. Just don't want to sniff as much. Right. So, but that can also. It can also be. Their level of frustration will affect that, you know, So I had a dog, when I came in to that job, my very favorite dog, they said, he'll never work. He'll never work. He searches with his eyes. I think he was frustrated. So I. And I'm a big enrichment person. So I just. I spent some time with him and decided, you know, I saw that he liked to swim a lot. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to commit to taking you swimming 20 minutes a week, at least once a week. And once he had that outlet, he was much better able to focus. Right. So do you see how I'm kind of relating to these dogs?

[A]

Yeah, it's like an ADHD dog.

[B]

Exactly. I'm like, if you have that outlet, you can focus now. And that dog is now working on the East Coast. Right. So he is, you know, so it worked for him. But so sometimes you have to get creative. And then we have dogs that were trained to search low, because a lot of times trainers will start with low searches, and we can never get their nose up high. Well, if someone's wearing something in their backpack, we need their nose up high. So we very quickly started putting high hides up. So they started learning to scan both low and high, because dogs will tend to go to the last place they found something. So it was really important for us to switch it up.

[A]

So I'm thinking about what you're saying, and my first thought is these kinds of dogs that are so brilliant at scent detection, they must be annoying to live with. They want to work. Right. They don't just hang out.

[B]

Yes, yes. So, no, it's true. In my own. My own dog, when I was at home, she would throw a toy at me all the time, but she was making an association with me because she would come to work with me and we'd play all day unless she was in her crate because it was another dog's turn. And so once that company closed and she came to live with me, if I was at home and I didn't want to play with her, she had to be in her crate. And I felt terrible. And then I came to work, I got another dog training job, training pet dogs. And I come home one night and my family's got her out. Her name is Jenny, and I said, how is Jenny out here laying down? They're like, she only does that for you. Well, she had made the association that I'm play and so she would calm down for them. So that actually was a great lesson for me to take, take to my students as well, because that can happen. But I have had, because I used to raise puppies, right. For this program too. So I had a puppy that was such a great searcher. He would find that toy everywhere and bring it to me, bring it to me constantly. So I used to hide it when I didn't want to play. I decided to put it up in my cupboard because he couldn't reach it because he was about four months at the time. This dog is on my counter in my glass cabinet. And I'm like, oh, right, he's a scent detection dog. This is what he's supposed to do. And my husband wants to yell at him because he shouldn't be in our cabinet. I'm like, this is true. But we can't yell at him because this is what he has to do. So we ended up having to just baby gate the kitchen because he'd be on the table, he'd be doing all of these things that you're right. In a household you can't have. But I'm like, I, I, we, we can't deter him from this. This is his job. Really was, it really was. So luckily he's, he got more into playing with our other dogs. That distracted him and he, he used work as an outlet for all of that. But it was, it was something. So when people would always say, I want a puppy raise for you, I'm like, are you sure? Because honestly, we can't, you know, the things you're going to want to deter them from, we probably need in the field.

[A]

So that is fascinating. Okay, so my second thought was, aren't ADHD women amazing? Like, where would I ever have a conversation about scent detection dogs, you know, And I wish that you were local. Where are you, by the way? Where do you live?

[B]

I'm in metro Detroit, so I'm up in Michigan. That job was probably one of my favorites because I am not a nine to five girl. Right. I don't, I typically, typically when I was in the marketing world, it was a very hard schedule for me. But that job, because I would get up and I'm like, okay, we're gonna go hiking now, we're gonna train now we're gonna go swimming. Right? It was amazing. And it really did fit my ADHD personality. It was always exciting.

[A]

And you are the perfect example that that's not just your career. This is who you are with every fiber of your being. And that means you know so much about, like, as I said, I wish you were here because I'd be like, please, please come over and help me train my dogs or tell me where to go, because, you know, I've tried and then, and my dogs, you know, they're not scent detection dogs. So they basically sleep all day. So it's, it's my doodle jumps too much. It's, you know, annoying for me and then of course for guests. But, you know, I don't need, I don't need these kinds of skills. So I want. You had written to me about your greyhound with separation anxiety. And so I had a question for you, but I wanted you to first, you know, educate all of us about your greyhound with separation anxiety. Because this is how it all started, right?

[B]

It is. So she is the reason I'm a dog trainer and I worked around dogs my whole life and I married a man who had never had a dog. So I said, let's go to the dog show. Detroit has this Detroit cattle club has a big dog show every year. So I said, let's go to the dog show. I want you to meet all these different breeds and I want you to pick whatever you want. Because I've had dogs, I've been around dogs. I want you to get what you want. And so we go to the show and I had a co worker that was there with greyhound rescue with her two greyhounds. So I said, oh, I'm gonna go talk to my co worker real quick and then we'll go back to, you know, to touring. And as I was talking to her, he started petting her dog. And I just thought, okay, there's a dog there, you pet it, right? And I didn't think anything about it. And I probably stayed there a long time because, you know, I'd like to talk, right? And then as we, as we left and I'm looking at him like, oh, look at, oh, German short hair pointers. Oh, Cairn terriers any size. He's like, can we go back and see the greyhounds again? And I'm like, really? That's what you want? And he's like, well, I don't know. Greyhounds are very, very calm. Most people don't understand that. So they literally, because they're sprinters, they will have bursts of energy. They can run that quarter mile track. They're not running around all day long. They're not high energy. So he determined that's what I wanted. And quite honestly, I'm gonna be honest, I was not attracted to the breed at all. I had done stories in journalism school because the plight of the greyhound is very well known. Right. And I think the cause is very worthy, but I did not see it as a breed I was going to have. And so he was like, no, this is all I want. This is all I want.

[A]

And I said, well, they seem very aloof.

[B]

They can be, right. Most sighthounds in general really can be. So I decided, I'm like, well, a promise is a promise. I mean, it's not gonna be my only dog, so let's go ahead and investigate. And I really did love the rescue people that we worked with too. They were right, like, my type of people. And we met this dog, and I don't even know how we ended up with her. She was very pretty, but she didn't interact with us at all. Right. At all. And we decided we had to have her. And then every time we'd leave the house. Now, with Greyhound rescue, they always say you need to create them when you leave. Right. And they've never lived in a house before, so it makes sense.

[A]

So were these. So for when you talk Greyhound rescue, are these dogs that have been rescued from the track?

[B]

Yes, they are retired racers. Mm. Yes. And so. And she was in rough shape, too. She had no hair. I think they had her sleeping on burlap and she had bones sticking out of her tail. She was, you know, she was. She was a mess. And so the fact that she changed her life, changed my life is kind of funny because I would come home from work and it would be like a scene straight out of Carrie because she's trying to get out of her crate and she was bleeding all over the place, and she would eliminate all over the place. And. And then my next door neighbor told me that she barks all day long. And he was very kind about it. He said, she's a rescue. She, you know, it's probably going to happen. But I knew, well, okay, there's something that has to change. This is not sustainable. And my husband, who had to have this dog, said, we got to fix her, get rid of her. And I'm like, okay, well, I don't get rid of anything. I remind him. That's why he's still around, you know? So.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So I decided to find a place to train. Now with greyhounds, they told me very specifically, you can't put a choke chain on them. And that is the only way I'd ever trained before. Right. I had only trained using positive punishments.

[A]

Is that because their necks are so tiny?

[B]

Yes. Okay.

[A]

I didn't know that.

[B]

So I had. Yeah. So I was like, well, that's all I've ever done before. And so they said, well, try this place. And they gave me the name of a facility in metro Detroit that didn't use choke chains. And I walked in there, and it took me six weeks to get this dog to sit.

[A]

Are they stubborn, too, or was it just this specific dog?

[B]

Well, dog. Greyhounds in general don't sit because if they sit in the start box, they'll be slow out of the start box. So they, you know, so it's just not a. It's just not a position they ever take. And then they don't have the muscles right for the sit. So it's a completely foreign topic for them. So I'm in this class full of golden retrievers and beagles that are doing beautifully. And here's my dog. Like, I don't know what to do. Right. I had. I knew nothing. Right. I've worked around dogs, but I knew nothing about behavior. And at the end of class, the assistant instructor comes up to me and says, you know, have you ever thought about maybe coming out as a volunteer trainer? And I said, were you that impressed by my dog? And she said, no, I was that impressed by your patience. So she said, we need someone that. With that much patience that doesn't give up on their dog. And I came on board as an apprentice. Basically, I learned so much that by the time I took that dog to the next level of class, something in her turned on in week three of an advanced class where I got accused of bringing a different dog to class. Like, she all of a sudden knew everything. But we were using operative conditioning, right. We use clickers in that class.

[A]

Explain what that is for people who don't know.

[B]

Yes. So a clicker becomes a marker. So the marker marks the behavior that we want. So we're telling the dog, yes, that's what we want. So, for instance, when a dog sits, I say the clickable moment is when the butt hits the ground. Right. And so for dogs, because they don't speak the same language as us, it gives us a tool to communicate. Yes, that's exactly what I want. And it seems cumbersome at first, but once you see it, connect with the dog. And I have had, especially with greyhounds, because I now run a class for only greyhounds. After we introduce the clicker. I will often have reports that after that they play for the first time. I think it's just such a relief to have a tool for communication.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it is, you know, it. So it really does put a magnifying glass in the fact that they don't understand what we're asking them to do. Right. So.

[A]

And is that specific to greyhounds?

[B]

Oh, no, I think that's for all dogs. Most dogs come in with more confidence, Right. But because the greyhounds, when they come from that racing world, they just don't know. They don't know that they're going into a home where they get to retire. Right. They left the only life they ever.

[A]

It's like a feral child, right? I mean, an abused child who.

[B]

Yeah, everything's different. Like, we're taking them from Venus and throwing them on Mars. And so there's one thing now they know without a shadow of a doubt. Right. And so I see them perk up so much with that, you know, so. But I actually had a similar experience with my. With my scent detection dog because I believe she was trained initially on a shock collar. And so when she would throw behavior, she would do them, and she was very reliable, but she'd be very worried about it. And once I started adding that clicker, her whole behavior, her whole body language started to change and she, you know, so now the sit is so much cleaner. She would always do it, but she would look like, okay, this is it, right?

[A]

Please don't.

[B]

And now she's like, boom, sit. This is what you want. Where's my treat? Right? So. So we do see it. Build a lot of confidence. It can be difficult, though, for people, I think, at first to understand because I think, especially when you're thinking, I have to click. People always feel that their timing is off, but that's okay. We've got tricks for that. If they just stick with it. It is so worth it. It is so worth it for that dog to have that clear understanding.

[A]

I have many clickers. I think I read the instructions once. I tried it a couple times, couldn't figure it out. And I realized they are now in the drawer and I've not used them. Is that one of the best ways you think to train a dog is with a clicker?

[B]

I absolutely do. I absolutely do. Having done a little bit of every. Right. I've used a choke chain. I've used, you know, and now I've gone to the clicker. And sometimes we'll use what we call a verbal marker. If people really don't want to use a clicker. We'll say something like, my verbal marker is yes. So my dogs do know both. Because if I don't have my clicker, I still want to be able to tell them, yes, that's what I want. And I want it to be very clear and consistent. But dogs, they're incredibly keen discriminators. So when I'm using my verbal, if I say yes one time and yes another, that's two different types of feedback. Right. And my dogs have figured it out. But it is difficult for dogs. It's not as clear as the clicker, which is always the same sound. Right. It always sounds the same.

[A]

You are clicking as a message to them that I like what you're doing.

[B]

Yes. And it is always. We say it's the bridge between the behavior we want and the reward. So we don't have to have the treat out. Right. And say, okay, sit for this treat. We ask for that sit. We click, we follow up with that treat. And that's going to increase the likelihood it will happen again.

[A]

Have you ever trained a shih Tzu?

[B]

I have. I actually have. I have a. I also have a chihuahua at home, and I mostly have a Chihuahua because people said I couldn't train one. And I like a challenge.

[A]

But aren't shih Tzus the worst? This is like when we talk about adhd, this always makes me laugh because the shih Tzus, I have a shih Tzu and I've got a doodle, which will do whatever you want to do. Right. That's like dumb person's dog.

[B]

That's like my shepherd. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But the shih Tzu, she is so difficult. I mean, she basically looks at you, flips, you know, flips you off and keeps going. She does what she wants to do. Thankfully, she is somewhat food motivated.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But I am thinking, because I was analogizing it to adhd. So if you look on the list of intelligence for dogs, I think shih Tzus are, like, literally at the bottom, the smartest dog I have ever had. My husband and I are, you know, because we've had everything from. We've had several golden retrievers, We've had bulldogs. That's another one who basically flips you off. We've had a Doberman. We've raised a guide dog for the blind. So I really love dogs. And, you know, golden retrievers are supposed to be at the top of the list. Labradors are supposed to be at the top of the list. We've had them. That dog is twice as smart. And what my husband and I always say is that she literally understands words and she kind of speaks like, you can talk to her and you know, we're gonna do this and this and this, and she'll just go, right, and walk to the door because she just knows what we're saying. But this is the deal. That dog's number one priority is getting what she wants for her. It is not getting what we want for her. And I think it's the same thing with adhd.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We are not obeyers.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so the thought is, because we don't do what we're supposed to do or what we're told to do, the idea is, oh, you know, well, that person isn't as smart because they don't do as well in school. Maybe their IQ tests, because there may be a learning challenge. You know, their IQ tests don't really show their intelligence. To me, it's the same exact thing, you know, someone with ADHD and a friggin Shisu.

[B]

Yes, yes. Because when people tell me my dog is stubborn, I'm like, you say stubborn, I see. Unmotivated. How do we motivate them? Which is exactly the conversations we're having in the ADHD world too. Right? Like how do we motivate? How do we remember. And I always remind people, you have everything your dog wants. Right. And so how can we manipulate them and get that behavior without stressing them out? Right. And making it fun for them? Because that's the other thing. If training is fun, they're always going to want to do it. My two working dogs like my Chihuahua and my lab still are actively training a lot. They never want a training session to end. And that's the perfect time to end it because then they come out wanting more next time. Right. And people always look at my Chihuahua like, I thought they were untrainable. I'm like, no, just people make assumptions. Right. And we could relate to that. Yes.

[A]

And whatever you believe, you will make sure that it is comes true, won't you?

[B]

Absolutely. Right.

[A]

So you have like the most. The, the best behaved Chihuahua.

[B]

Well, it's funny. She has the freedom to make choices and I mean, I have the freedom to mark the behaviors that I want. So she is a really well versed Chihuahua. People are usually impressed by her when they see her. She's still a dog and she still gets to make choices. But she's the only dog out of my pack right now that I've had since she was a puppy. So she was the only one raised being able to make choices. And I would form those. I would mark those choices with a clicker and treat. So it. She's the easiest to train now because when we're in a training session, if I want to teach something new, she's not afraid to make choices because of that early training. Right. So she will pick up something new so quickly. But she's still a Chihuahua. She still likes to, you know, she likes to bark at the other dogs and they're playing. She's not as barky as most people assume. So when people say, oh, she doesn't bark, I'm like, oh, she does. Just not as much as the Chihuahuas on tv. That's what they're known for.

[A]

Or my friggin Shisu.

[B]

She's. Yeah, she is the best in all of my dogs. So I have four dogs and so my other three dogs are all large dogs. I have a greyhound, a German shepherd and my lab. They all love to play with her and she holds herself so well with them and is just so confident with them.

[A]

She's the alpha.

[B]

I wouldn't necessarily say that because she knows when to back off. Right. So. But they just have a great dynamic together.

[A]

So is this a new greyhound?

[B]

This greyhound, I've. Yes. She's not that same greyhound that got me into training. This is a dog so we've had now probably, I think he's probably our fifth and we've fostered about 20. So we foster a lot when, when they close the tracks. Down in Florida, there was such an influx of dogs. The only way to truly save them was not even necessarily adoption. We wanted people adopting, but we needed to open up more foster spaces. So at that point I was dedicated to fostering. So we probably had six or seven and we had three dogs at that time. I didn't want four. But my husband was worried he'd never have another retired racer again. With Florida, you know, ending racing, there's not many tracks left and he really wanted another retired racer. Why?

[A]

Why? Just because it's so satisfying to see them come into themselves or he has.

[B]

I think the personality really matches him because they are so calm, they're very cuddly, they're very sweet.

[A]

Oh, wait, they are affectionate.

[B]

They are, yeah. I can tell you that that first dog I didn't want, I became obsessed. Right. Like all I wanted. At one point, not long after we adopted her, we had three greyhounds and we were fine. So I really was. I really loved the personality. They can sleep all Day, but they can go hiking too. So they were really. Once we. Once you cracked the code and worked on Karma's behavior and got her over the. What I thought was separation anxiety, it was really more of a confinement issue. You know, she didn't. She hated the crate.

[A]

How many years old are these dogs? When you get them, the greyhounds, the.

[B]

Retired racers, they can race from, they're retired anywhere from two to five years. So she was retired at three, I want to say, because she refused to leave the start box. So confinement issues were probably. Or refused to go into the stark box. So I think confinement issues was a lifetime long thing with her. So she was not there very long. And the one we have now is five when he was. When he was retired or maybe four. And then I had one that came to me at 18 months. I think she was a spitfire. I don't know that she ever even raced. In fact, at 18 months, legally she could not have. It's. It's against policy. I think she was someone's pet and they just decided they couldn't keep her because she came to me sitting, which I've never had a greyhound do before. I show the adoption specialist that came in, I'm like, look, I've already taught her to sit. And she's like, she came to us knowing that. I'm like, oh, I thought I was really that good, you know, so they can they anywhere from that. And then sometimes you have the mamas, the brood mamas come up at like eight years. And those are dogs that have had litters. They're all. Now, I don't know that there are many left because racing has become such a small thing now.

[A]

On Shark Tank the other night, there is. This is about, you know, the greyhound with separation anxiety, which we're not even sure it was separation anxiety at this point. Right. But there was an entrepreneur who had this blow up doll called Gertie, your inflatable friend. So it was literally this blow up doll and they put your face on it and then you dress it in your own clothes and then apparently you introduce it to your dogs or your dog with separation anxiety. Like, it's like it's a friend. Like you bring it in through the front door, you talk to it, you hug it, you. And literally the dogs, by the time, you know, they'll accept Gertie and you can leave. And the dogs and the guy who designed it, it was specifically for the same situation you had where he would leave and this dog would go nuts. And he was living in an Apartment. But there were all kinds of like videos of these dogs sleeping on Gertie.

[B]

I think I've seen some tiktoks of people dressing up like, like Halloween skeletons in their clothes. I can't imagine my dog not knowing that wasn't a human.

[A]

According to the guy and his research, they do know it's not human, but somehow it just calms them down because it's a substitute for you.

[B]

Yes. Huh. I mean, I'd have to see that. To me it's one of those things. And you see a lot of this in training where I like very science backed facts and if he has the facts, that's fantastic. But it's also one of those things that, well, it's tried, it can't hurt the dog, right? Let's give it a try. So.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. If you're lucky enough that it works. Although then you have this weird blow up doll that you have to explain to your friends when they come over.

[B]

They're not going to believe it's for the dog. They just aren't.

[A]

Ebony that you talk about dogs being a mirror for our emotional state. What do they pick up from us that we might not even notice? You've been told your whole life that your way is the wrong way, that you need to do it their way. And over time you stop trusting yourself. But here's the truth. You were never the problem. You just have a different brain, which means you need different systems. That's where my six step patented you'd ADHD brain is a okay program comes in. Let me help you reconnect with your intuition. Trust yourself again and build a life that actually works for you. You've had the answers all along. I'll help you see them. Click the link in the first line of this episode's description to learn more or book a discovery call. Now let's get back to the show.

[B]

They pick up anxiety a lot, right? So I know that my dogs, when I'm feeling anxious, they're going to start pacing more. And for my clients, what I see, and I see this in class a lot too, right? Because I see people get nervous in class and I that's one of the things I try most of all. I'll put breath work into class. Like, okay, we're gonna throw some treats on the ground. Your dog's gonna breathe so you can take a deep breath, right? And I'll do some like box breathing. And that helps so immensely because once they're, once they're loosening up and they're not tight on that leash, because a lot of times when we get nervous, we want to pull up on that leash because we think it gives us more control. And most of the time, we don't even realize we're doing it. And they feel that. And when they feel that tension at the neck around their harness, they're going to be more tense, right? And they're more likely to bark. They're more likely to react to things. So all of those things are things I like to address before we even start training the dog. I want to make that easier for both the owners and the dog. Right. So it's one of the reasons I like to advocate for just having some fun, you know, like, walks in the woods. I'm big into. I want to get dogs more into something like forest bathing, right? Just time where you can just calm down together and see what that feels like, you know? But they can really, like that anxiety really does affect them, you know? And once we start in training, what I see a lot is if the dog isn't doing the cue right away, they start to tense up. And in fact, I've been in this situation myself. They'll start to tense up, and the dog is less likely to respond. I had a dog when he was going through adolescence. He was an amazing, amazing dog. He did. He's a dog that everybody in puppy class wanted to take home. And then they hit an adolescence, much like in humans, where they just act like teenagers and, like, sit what? You know? And I found myself getting really angry at him, and I knew that wasn't helping him or me, so I stepped back from obedience, and I took a canine musical freestyle class, which is dancing with your dogs. Right?

[A]

Wait, what it is?

[B]

Yes, it is. You teach a string of behaviors, mostly tricks, like a shake can turn into a high kick, and dogs will spin and walk backwards, and you string it to music. So if you look it up on YouTube, you're gonna find some fantastic videos. That is a rabbit hole that is very fun to go down, let me tell you. And I took him to that class instead because I realized I wasn't as tense if he didn't get a sit stay. I was stressed. I wanted to show him an obedience. If he didn't get a high kick, I didn't care. And what that taught me, because he started to pick things up like this, Right? And so what that taught me is that when I was relaxed, he was much more open to connecting with me and learning and doing what I asked him to do. And he started picking up the high Kicks and the spins. And. And there is no difference from a dog's perspective between trick, like there's no difference between tricks and obedience. So that was all me and my approach.

[A]

Wow. I can totally see the anxiety piece. I had a. My first dog, actually my first own dog that wasn't like a family dog was a Doberman. And up until 18 months old, that dog was so confident and loved everybody. And then around 18 months, he started to get shy, sharp. And this is a big dog. He was beautiful. His name was Einstein. I did not name him the dog, but I remember being anxious and my anxiety because I was so afraid, you know, because he was shy sharp. And you know how it is. If you have a Doberman and they bark, that's like a golden retriever biting. You know, people just. And so I would be anxious and we would be feeding off of each other. And finally I just said here to my husband, you're the one. When we're in public, you deal with him because you're much calmer than I am. And I like, even with my Shisu, you know, she's very like, she will go after, she'll go after a Doberman. She's an idiot. You know, she's so dominant. And I can tell that when I get anxious, she gets more feisty. Is that something that you think you can ever eliminate from a dog if they're just naturally more dominant?

[B]

Well, in the. The dominance paradigm is very interesting because it's not as, as cut and dry as we originally thought. Right. So we used to talk a lot about dogs dominating the household. The original studies that were done were faulty, so we've kind of moved away from that. The study was basically done on wolves, on a wolf pack. Right. And they talked about how the dominant wolves would correct other dogs. And that is that. That became the foundation for a lot of early dog training. And the original researcher that did that study went back and said that that was faulty for a couple of reasons. One, it was an artificial kind of circumstances. The wolves were confined to a smaller area than would ever happen. Right. So there were limited resources which made them have to pack up. Right. And then we also know that dominance, true dominance, is control of the resources. And we know there are certain things, like there was an old school behavior called an alpha roll, where to show that you were dominant, people would roll their dogs on their backs. And what we found now is that if a dog is posturing, if a more dominant dog is posturing over a more submissive dog, they're not actually Forcibly putting them into that role. The other dog submits. It just looks to the human eye. Right. So that, that it's being forced and it's not. So there's a lot of strange nuances in there that really happens. And in fact, in domestic dogs, it is fluid. Right. You'll see that. You'll see dogs go back and forth. If we had true dominance, dog parks would be a bloodbath. Right. It would, you know, they're not very fixed and we know they do not dominate or they do not rank with humans or interest or outside of their species. Right. Too. So that is the other thing.

[A]

What about when you do have a dog who actually will challenge you? Like I had a bulldog and I ended up in wound care and it was terrible. He was older though, and I think he just snapped and maybe doggy dementia. I.

[B]

Yes. And usually at that point, that's when you need to find like. And I will work. I worked with, for an aggression specialist for years and I actually worked with several here during my day job that will really try to root out the cause because we know most aggression stems from fear, but then it can grow as more of a learned behavior. Right. And when we're seeing it in older dogs, the first thing we want to do is vet check. Is there something going on pain wise? My, my shepherd the other day, she can't, she's older, so she can't walk. And when I lifted her up, she put her hand, she put her mouth on me and it was very light. But I knew immediately there's something painful in her stomach, the way I'm, you know, the way I'm holding her. And of course, neurologically, as they get older, there are a lot of changes happening there too. So we know that most, most of the time when they're showing aggression, it's going to be fear based. Right. But then it can grow. So we have to take a look and that that's when we definitely want to get an aggression specialist or even a vet behaviorist involved to kind of pinpoint, okay, this is a symptom of something else that's going on. What. And then we have to play detective and figure out what is happening. What are they uncomfortable about? Why are they getting, you know, why are they feeling the need to, you know, warn you off? We used to see a whole lot of. In fact, I still will sometimes see people because dogs don't live in a moral world, right. So they don't see things as good and bad. They see things as safe and dangerous. And so Humans are so different, right? So if we go near them while they're eating, if we go near their food and they growl, we're immediately thinking, oh, no, bad dog. We want you to be nice. The dog is thinking, oh, I'm getting yelled at for growling, okay. But I still feel uncomfortable. So, okay, I may not growl, but I'm gonna pick another fear response, and, you know, it's probably gonna be something more severe, right? So that's when we really start to really root out. Okay, what's happening? Where is the dog feeling uncomfortable? How can we change this scenario? Right? And a lot of times, too, most of the time, we're gonna have. We're gonna have a vet involved just to make sure. Because if there's something medical going on, we can't. We can't train out pain, right? We have to make sure that there's, you know, there's, you know, comfort there and that there's nothing else that's gonna make our job. We don't want to go uphill more. You know, we want it to be a nice, even line. So a lot of times it's just those dogs responding to something that they don't, like, they're worried about, right? And so then they're responding in such a way to just kind of stop the. Stop the incident from happening or stop the situation that they're in.

[A]

I know that you're really into gamifying dog training. Can you walk us through what that looks like, and how might that help an ADHD brain who is trying to train their dog stay engaged?

[B]

Yes. Yes. Well, I think gamifying always makes things more fun for me. Right. So I'm always. I've always been a big game person, so I like to work with people to decide. What types of games do you like more? What's going to help you remember to train this dog? So some of it may be even as simple as, okay, you don't know what to train. Let's give you a deck of cards with different behaviors on it. Draw a card. Okay? Go do that behavior, right? So just to make it more fun or somebody wants, you know, if somebody wants to create a situation where they're more motivated by playing the game. Like, okay, let's do a crossword puzzle. Okay. What is the first. Oh, you found Sit. Okay. Get up and ask your dog for a sit. Right? Just to. Because we get in ruts, right? We're like, okay, I'm gonna work on. And this happens to me, too. Well, I've worked on sit the last Week. What else do I have? And all of a sudden you can't think of anything else. Even though there's a million things. But this way it forces you to kind of switch it around. But I also like to gamify it for the dog. So we talked about sniffing and how important that is. So at night, and I do this a lot with my, with my lab because she is such a high energy dog. We'll go in the backyard, I'll have her kibble with me. She's very, very food motivated. And I'll call her to me, she'll say come and I'll Yes. Which is her marker, right. And I throw down food so she can sniff. So then she gets to play sniffy game. And as she's sniffing, I'll run to another part of the room or yard and as she's done, as she's finishing up, I'll call her again and then maybe this time I'll ask for a sit and then. Okay, yes, go get it. You know, so she's sniffing, I get, I get to run a little bit, you know, and she gets a bigger reinforcement and the sniffing actually will tire them out. Sniffing for a dog actually builds production of serotonin. So when we can get our dog sniffing, it's a self soothing exercise. So it's a great thing to do at the end of the night.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so when I'm going on a walk with my dog every day and he's annoying me, my male dog, because he's sniffing and peeing on everything, that is actually releasing anxiety for him and calming his nervous system is.

[B]

Yes. There's a lot of signs on sniffing. Right. It can change a dog's mood, it lowers their heart rate. So that's like. So whenever I have a dog that's nervous, the first thing I want to try to do is get their nose to the ground. I might even train them. Like I'll attach a cue to it, like go sniff. And I'll train that. So the dog starts to expect that and it will just get them, just to get them sniffing and it will wear them out more. So I'm a big like jog trainers talk about. I'm a big fan of Sniffari. So dog trainers will talk about sniffaris where you kind of let the dog lead the way and let them sniff. And that's pretty much all my walks. I always say my dogs have two rules on walks. One is they don't pull me. I want my shoulder intact when we're done. And the second Is if I tell them their name, if I call their name, they come with me. So if I'm on a sniff, Ari, losing track of time, like, oh, no. Oh, I've got to get to work. I call their name and we get to, you know, we get back. But other than that, I pretty much let them sniff whatever they want.

[A]

Okay. Now I feel guilty, but I also.

[B]

Feel like I learned something.

[A]

I remember years ago, a dog trainer told me. Actually, I'm not sure she was a dog trainer, maybe an animal behaviorist, but she worked with, like, lions and tigers and, like, zoo animals. And I remember her telling me that when dogs go for a walk, the importance. This was about a walk. The importance of dogs going for a walk is when they're sniffing around, it's kind of like reading the morning newspaper and kind of, you know, it's what's going on in the world. What's going on in their world. It's how they get information, which then it makes sense that that would also calm their nervous system because, okay, I know the lay of the land today.

[B]

Right? Right. And they say that 20 minutes of sniffing will equal about an hour of walks. That's. I've not seen studies on that, per se. I was just writing a blog about it this week, though, so I was looking for a reference. And that's pretty much what most experts are saying. And I. I do believe that, right? Because even my senior shepherd, if I take her out and just she stays in one place and sniffs, she comes in and she's exhausted, you know, and so even just those short walks around the park, if you just, you know, and with her, it might take us 20 minutes to go a half mile. Right. Which is really slow, but it's exhausting her because she's sniffing.

[A]

That is the best piece of information. I never heard that. We live in the country, and so we'll let our dogs, you know, that it's fenced, and we'll let them just go out and run. And, you know, most of the time they're just sitting in the sun. But a lot of the time, they're sniffing all around. I'm like, what are they doing? You know, you've already gone to the bathroom, but now I know.

[B]

Yep. They're getting all that information, who was there. Right. And I will throw in things like, I just ordered lambs wool off Etsy from a farmer and let my dogs have some free time sniffing that. I have some actually just put on my social media great video of all four of them sniffing that Lambswool. And that is enrichment, Right? That is something. If it's a rainy day, they got to have, they got to sniff. It's a postcard from the world. Right? They got to sniff something really cool.

[A]

That is so great. I love, love that. Well, I could talk to you forever. Real quick.

[B]

The clicker.

[A]

If we want to learn more about how to do that kind of training and we don't live near you because if you live near Deveney, you should run to her to take your dog there. Where can we learn this? Where would you recommend that we go?

[B]

Probably my favorite, probably the best source is Karen Pryor Academy. She runs. So Karen Pryor is the godmother of clicker training. Yes. And unfortunately Karen herself has passed. But there is a wonderful trainers there that are carrying on her legacy and there are. She actually has a program. This is. If I were a 20 year old trainer, this is the program I would go to. Right. And I work. A lot of my colleagues have gone there. So she's got, if you go there, you can see all of the graduates of her program listed and they're gonna know that clicker backwards and forwards. Okay.

[A]

And would they be in my area?

[B]

Yes, they're. Yep. All over the country, actually all over the world at this point, you know, but they, that is the best place.

[A]

Okay, I will find it. I will put that link in the show notes before I let you go. What is your number one ADHD workaround?

[B]

My number one ADHD workaround is to have lots of frozen bones in the freezer. Because my number one rule as an adhd, it's neurodivergent, is to have quiet time in the morning with my coffee to just reflect and get ready for the day. And dogs aren't always down with that. So I make sure I have those stuffed Kongs or beef cheeks. So just this morning I could see my greyhound getting squirrely and I said, nope. And so before they even start barking at me, I'm giving them their enrichment. That will keep them busy for that half an hour. And I get to sit there blissfully with my coffee, watching my morning news. I love it.

[A]

I love it. Where do people know more about you and what it is that you do?

[B]

So my new, my new blog and my new efforts for working with neurodivergent owners will be@ distracteddogowners.com right. So that's going to be my blog and I do have some resources there that can help. I like, I'm creating more training worksheets. Right. So it can make it visual. Actually, you inspired me with the habit stacking. Right. I'm coming up with some cards that people can print out and tape around for that. I thought that was a brilliant idea. Then my day job, I teach a lot of puppy and sports and basic training at K9 Turbo Training in Ferndale, Michigan.

[A]

Deveney, thank you so much for spending time with us here today. I wasn't kidding when I said we've been going for way too long. And I could. I still have so many questions.

[B]

Well, I appreciate it. Yes, I appreciate, because I found you through a dog trainer. I told you, my. My boss at the scent detection facility, she had a hard time because I couldn't prioritize. Like, I have a dog training for TSA and I have a puppy that needs to go for a walk. Which is more important, I don't know. Right. So she would get frustrated, and all of a sudden, one day she comes and she's like, have you ever. Have you ever heard of this podcast called ADHD for Smartass Woman? And I was like, no. She's like, I hear it. I'm listening to religiously. And she. She is not neurodivergent. And she says, and I just keep thinking about you, and you need to start listening to it. So she started listening so she could help me. And that was phenomenal. Right? That was that. What a great. What a great boss to have.

[A]

Well, tell her thank you very much. And yes, yes, you are in the right environment around the right people. Right. And then that means you can practice your brilliance. So thank you again for spending time with us here today. So that's what I have for you for this week. If you like this episode with Deveney, please let us know by leaving a review. Our goal is to change the conversation around adhd, helping as many women as we possibly can learn how their ADHD ADHD brains work so that they, too may discover their amazing strengths. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you here next week. You've been listening to the ADHD for Smartass Women podcast. I'm your host, Tracy Otsuka. Join us at adhd for smartwomen.com where you can find more information on my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women. And my patented you'd ADHD brain is a okay system to help you get unstuck and fall in love with your brilliant brain. If this episode hit home, don't just stop here. ADHD doesn't have to be a struggle. It can actually be your greatest strength. When you learn how to work with it.

[B]

It.

[A]

That's exactly what I teach inside Our patented your ADHD brain is AOK Academy. So if you're ready to stop fighting your brain and start using it to your advantage, look for the link in the first line of this episode's description. The sooner you start, the sooner life gets easier.