B (4:28)

Thank you, Tracy. That was beautiful. And thank you so much for having me.

A (4:32)

Absolutely. It is a pleasure. And I think about that balcony off your bedroom, and it sounds like heaven, especially because there's a water view. Do you pinch yourself as far as how you ended up there?

B (4:46)

Sometimes. There was a lot less pinching in the past week when we were trying to get the heating on as winter was hitting. But, yes, there's a lot of pinching. It's almost like a fairy tale.

A (4:56)

And you figured it out, the heat?

B (4:58)

We figured it out finally, yes.

A (5:01)

Wonderful. So can we talk about your ADHD diagnoses first? I know that our listeners always love to hear the stories because that is what they relate to. And as a writer, I'm sure you know how important stories are. So can you share with us how you were diagnosed?

B (5:19)

I was first diagnosed when I was 15. I was enrolled in a psychiatric hospital, not permanently, but to visit once a week because something was off. I had problems creating relationships with my peers, and I fluctuated a lot in my productivity at school. And there was just something that was a little bit off. After two years, they came to the conclusion you probably have adhd.

A (5:45)

Two years.

B (5:47)

Two years of weekly sessions with psychiatrists, psychologists, and family psychologists.

A (5:53)

And was that the only diagnosis, Susanna?

B (5:56)

No, because they tried me on medication. The medication didn't really. Well, it helped me, but it also really flattened out my emotions or it made me angry. It didn't feel good to me. I didn't recognize myself So I decided not to. Not to get medicated. And they said, well, that just means that you have a hard time focusing. That's all we know. Good luck. And everyone kind of forgot because the only thing we knew, the only information we received was sometimes you have a hard time focusing. And the diagnosis didn't mean anything else.

A (6:26)

You went every week for two years, and the only diagnoses that you walked away with was adhd?

B (6:34)

Yes.

A (6:34)

Well, add, then they felt it was inattentive adhd, so they really didn't recognize it. That is insane.

B (6:44)

Two years. It gets worse because everyone forgot about the diagnosis. It didn't mean anything. In 2021, when I was at university, I was struggling at university. I was talking to my friend's mother who happened to be an ADHD coach, and she said, this sounds like adhd. And then a penny dropped, and I thought, wait, I had a diagnosis. So I tried to get in contact with my psychiatrists and my psychologists in the hospital, et cetera, and no one could find evidence of that diagnosis. So I had to get re diagnosed so that I could take that piece of paper to the university and ask for accommodations. The only accommodation they could give me was extra time, but I'm an exceptionally fast reader, and it all turned out to be for nothing.

A (7:32)

Oh, my gosh. And that's my son. You know, that was the only accommodation. And he was like. And he has real fast processing speed. He's like, that would be the worst thing for me because then I'm gonna be done, and I'm gonna be re. Over. You know, overthinking every answer and changing answers. Like, I don't want extra time. It's the last thing I need. That is crazy. So your mom and dad, you know, your parents, they didn't have. There was never anything written that they actually had a copy of. It was like. It just disappeared.

B (8:03)

Yep. Crazy, huh? That's what it was like. There's. There was no information on ADHD in women. No one could. Could give you. Even if they wanted to give me accommodations, what would they have given me? No one knew what we needed. It just. There was no knowledge.

A (8:18)

Exactly. And I mean, that's exactly what you went through, right? Initially, it's like two years of this every week, and you come back and you tell me it's adhd. And then if I can't or don't want to do medic, then, sorry, that's just the way it is. So no other strategies, skills?

B (8:36)

Well, of course I went through normal talking therapy, working through my Challenges, et cetera. But none of it was ADHD specific because there was no ADHD specific therapy, really.

A (8:49)

So I'm curious what you were like as a child.

B (8:52)

Well, all the books behind me, if you are watching the video, all the books behind me might be an indication. I spend most of my time reading. I was very quiet, very easy. Just give me a book, put me on the couch, and I will spend, I don't know, the next three hours finishing the book and picking up the next one. I was pretty easy in that sense. But when I was forced to engage with my peers, that is when I got in trouble because I couldn't really relate to them. I didn't really understand them. I read a lot. I could relate to those characters, and I picked up social skills, et cetera, from the books over time. But it never really came naturally to me because I was just different. I always knew I was different. It didn't quite match.

A (9:35)

And have you ever considered that maybe you're also on the spectrum?

B (9:40)

I don't think so. I've never really considered it. But of course, there's a lot of overlap between ADHD and autism. There's a lot of comorbidity. It's absolutely possible, but at this point, I wouldn't confidently say adhd.

A (9:55)

Hearing you talk, that's the first thing that came up for me. But I believe that ADHD and autism, well, it's all part of the same label and it's just how much of one thing versus how little of another. And in my experience, the women that have been really successful have a little bit of both. So I'm curious what you are like. Do you need systems and you like things really ordered and your surroundings are neat and. Or do you struggle with what most people with purely adhd, struggle.

B (10:26)

So when I was a teenager, my social problems disappeared when I started connecting with other outcasts.

A (10:32)

Yep.

B (10:33)

So I was really good socially. I was. I called myself the queen of the nerds. I could do very, very well with, with anyone who loved learning, et cetera. And I was always completely disorganized. I did not like systems, I did not like planners, structure, anything. Now, in the past 10 years, it has been my saving grace. I swear by structures. I think that for many ADHD women I work with, there's a strong resistance towards structure, but simultaneously a need for it. And I think that you always have to. As an ADHDer, the key to ADHD management is to find that balance constantly between just enough freedom that your inner rebel, as I call it, doesn't come out. And just enough structure that you actually know where you're headed and have a sense of momentum. And that is something that I figured out myself recently. Like last five to 10 years. And it's been so important to me. It could be autism.

A (11:32)

I'm exactly like you. And I would say that I was a disaster too. But because I was smart, I could kind of skate. Right. And it wasn't until law school that I actually learned how to study. And I think that is when I started to adopt a lot of systems and structure. And I mean, I still fight it, you know, at times, but I feel so much less anxious with them.

B (12:01)

Yes. I always say that I overcompensate by planning and structuring so much. It is a way to give yourself a sense of safety in a world that feels so chaotic because of your ADHD.

A (12:14)

100%. It calms our nervous system. So I am curious, Susanna, how did you end up doing what you're doing? So did you go to college?

B (12:24)

Yes, I did.

A (12:25)

And what did you study?

B (12:27)

I did a bachelor's in Cultural Studies and a master's in Cultural Analysis.

A (12:32)

And how was that major for you? Was there a lot of reading?

B (12:36)

It was amazing. There was a lot of reading, but especially in my master's, there was a lot of freedom. I saw the university as this sea of information that I could now fish in. I could do whatever I wanted. So during my bachelor's, I doubled my course load because there was just so much that I went to all 1300 courses at the University of Amsterdam to find the ones that seemed exciting to me and then put together four minors that I wanted to do. In the end, I dropped a few because there was way too many. But, yes, I absolutely loved it. And the beauty is that Cultural Studies and Cultural Analysis work completely interdisciplinary. There were no fixed paths. You could do a lot with electives and minors. So I loved it because I could just follow my interest and my passion.

A (13:26)

However, you did go back and get re diagnosed, right? So what was going on that made you feel like you needed accommodations?

B (13:36)

Yeah, that was in the first year. Mostly in the first and second year. It was a lot more prescriptive. I had never been taught. It had never been explained to me how you write an essay. It had never been explained to me how you did any of this. I felt completely lost. I needed direction. I needed someone to tell me what to do. But I didn't recognize that need at the time. And that means that I failed a course three years in a Row. Even though other courses, I just got straight A's.

A (14:09)

What was the course on?

B (14:11)

Cultural history? I loved it. I loved it. I just didn't understand the exercises. I didn't understand what they wanted from me.

A (14:19)

And so what did the exams look like that would allow you to fail?

B (14:23)

These were essays. So I had to write an essay and the teacher wasn't entirely supportive and would just fail me straight away because he didn't really appreciate the way my mind works.

A (14:38)

Oh, my gosh. So was it that you were too creative in your answers and not, you know, linear?

B (14:44)

Yes. Not linear enough. Not structured enough and too creative in my answers? Yes.

A (14:51)

Unbelievable. The crazy thing about that is you actually really loved the course.

B (14:55)

Yeah, I love the material. And in the third year I got a new teacher and I aced it.

A (15:00)

I always say we with our ADHD brains are the arbiter of good teaching versus bad teaching.

B (15:07)

You know, it's true. And we also have this, this thing about authority, don't we? If. If someone is too authoritarian, we just resist.

A (15:19)

Exactly. And especially if we have a sense too, that we don't feel safe. We know that someone doesn't like us or doesn't like what we contribute or how our brain works. Then you got that double whamm. The probably the person sounded, that professor sounded like he was very authoritative, but also you knew that he didn't really appreciate what you contributed. And so that's a double whammy. Right? You graduate from college and then what do you do next?

B (15:52)

I decided that I had never worked in a health store before, but I could definitely manage one for eight months, which was a steep learning curve. So I loved it. The first few months I had to study up on supplements and vitamins and that kind of stuff. And it was super exciting. I had to learn how to manage the store because I had never done that before. So I managed the store for eight months. Then after about five months, the learning curve flattened out and I got bored. I stuck it out for three more months and then I had to quit. Then I went into door to door sales, electricity contract. Exact same story, exact same timeline. Five months of bliss and learning curve. And then it flattened out and I had to go. And that is when I met my husband and I followed him to Phoenix, Arizona for six months.

A (16:47)

Ah. So how did you go from there to I am going to teach writing and I am specifically going to teach writing to people with ADHD brains.

B (16:58)

Right. It seems a bit of a stretch, doesn't it? I came across a research organization and I became the director of publications because I thought, I have never done anything like this before, but obviously I can do it. So I became the director of publications of a research network and I helped navigate the process for both the authors and the publishers to get books coming out of conferences into a beautiful book series called the Emerald Interdisciplinary Connections series. That is when I realized that there's very few people who had been in my position where they could communicate with both the authors and the publishers, see what they both needed, and craft book proposals that way. So when Covid hit and I was recently married, I got married on the first day of social distancing in the Netherlands. And we got stuck at my parents place because we were going to move to Italy, but all the borders were closed. I decided that I had to do something with my time. So I decided that I was going to offer my services as a book proposal expert and editor online. And then I realized that actually I like working with people, so I added coaching to it, and then that narrowed down very quickly into helping ADHDers.

A (18:17)

Okay, but how did you get into the whole ADHD thing? I completely understand if you're working with book authors, and I think so many authors have the adhd. Right. Because. And especially in that field, by the time they're talking to you, they're an expert in whatever it is they're experts in. Right. And so I personally have seen a lot of ADHD among authors. But then that book proposal part, oh my gosh. I think I took. I know I took longer to write the book proposal than I did the book. It was so hard. And I ghosted my book proposal person several times because what I discovered is I couldn't write the chapter summaries unless I wrote the chapter first. So I literally showed up with I think 60,000 words.

B (19:07)

Brilliant. Yes. I have the same problem. I wrote a book. I wrote a book proposal. The book proposal has been sitting on my computer for a year because I just don't want to send it out or I haven't really prioritized sending it out. How did I get to adhd? Actually, it was an accident. I would love to tell you, Tracy, that I've always believed that there should be more ADHD who are writing, et cetera. No, I thought, how can I niche down? I thought, oh, yeah, I'll just put up. I have helped myself be productive with ADHD without a boss now for a while. I actually have strategies and tools that I can share with people. So let me just create a page on my website about ADHD writing, coaching. And then it turned out that that page on my website became the most popular one yet. So within the year, I had reorganized everything around ADHD writers because I just knew that. I just realized that there was a need for it and there was no one else.

A (20:02)

So were you seeing that the people that you were working with, a lot of them had ADHD and they all had the same challenges, and the people.

B (20:13)

I enjoyed working with the most had adhd. That is part of it, too.

A (20:17)

It sounds like this metamorphosis was all just really natural. And somewhere along the line, you know, initially you were diagnosed and nobody could do anything, and you totally forgot you even had it. And then in college, it came up again. So once it came up a second time in college, is that when you started really paying attention?

B (20:41)

Yes, but this was still in the early stages of ADHD information coming out. There weren't big online communities yet, et cetera. Because I have realized that it's really in the last five to 10 years that we collectively as ADHDers, have started talking to each other and have started disseminating and sharing information and sharing experiences. And I always say that even though I was diagnosed relatively early, I still feel like we're all in the same boat and we're all learning together. Yeah.

A (21:16)

So when you were rediagnosed, was it inattentive ADHD or was it combined type?

B (21:22)

It was still add, because in the Netherlands, they haven't adopted this new terminology yet. But, yes, inattentive adhd. There's never been a suspicion of impulsivity, hyperactivity.

A (21:34)

I am curious when you're looking at Europe as a whole, because it sounds like you've lived in a lot of places in Europe as compared to the United States, which you've also been there for more than a couple months, what is the difference that you notice in terms of how ADHD is received and understood?

B (21:54)

It's hard to say because Europe as a whole doesn't agree on much. I think in the Netherlands, for example, people are much farther than they are in Italy. In Italy, there's still a lot of, is this even real? If you do have a diagnosis, what does that even mean? I have realized that the big difference between the experiences in the Netherlands and that in the United States is that you turn more quickly to medication in the United States.

A (22:28)

So they have strategies and coaching and all of this first, and then if that isn't sufficient, then they will recommend.

B (22:37)

Medication or medication is one of the things that is tried. And I've noticed that because I have a lot of siblings, and all of them are neurodivergent, and they have just been diagnosed in the last few years. So I can see that there's less of a push to medicate and there's more of a how can we help you do what you want to do.

A (22:59)

Yeah. Which I think is so important because. Well, first of all, you know, for 20, maybe even 30% of us, medication, it just doesn't work, or the symptoms of the medication end up being worse than our ADHD traits.

B (23:12)

I am not against medication, but I do think that it is only one of the things that can help. I organized a summit in October. One of the people there said, when you get your diagnosis, you should just get a referral through a coach as well. Everyone who gets a diagnosis should just get a person who will not talk about medication, who will talk about how can we organize your life in such a way that things become easier and that you can actually get to where you want to be? And I like that idea.

A (23:41)

I totally agree. And teach you how your brain actually works. Right, right.

B (23:47)

Yeah.

A (23:47)

That foundational work, which is all I do. I am curious what I didn't say in your bio. And in the back of my mind, I'm remembering that I saw it somewhere. I was really taken by the kinds of people that you work with. So can you tell us some of the people that you've worked with as far as what they do?

B (24:11)

Yes. I work with anyone who writes and who feels that their ADHD makes that hard. So the majority of my clients currently is academics, because a lot of academics experience a lot of pressure to write and to publish. And under that pressure, their ADHD symptoms flare up and they realize that something needs to happen. I also work with activists, memoirists. A lot of us ADHDers have amazing, wonderful stories to tell about our lives. I work with novelists, screenwriters, playwrights, journalists, sometimes copywriters, bloggers, anyone who wants to write.

A (24:51)

Journalists.

B (24:54)

Journalists have to write. Yes.

A (24:56)

Well, yes, but I just would expect that if you're a journalist, you've been writing from the get go and you've figured out a way to write that would be horrifying.

B (25:06)

Everyone you work with has had ADHD from the get go, but at some point, something happened to make things worse. Something happened to make them shut down or realize a problem that they have been having all along, or realizing that it's not just that they have to try harder, but that maybe this is related to their ADHD after all. So, yes, I think journalism is a great profession for ADHDers. Some of the journalists have very high risk jobs.

A (25:37)

Oh, I think they're all, they all have ADHD and just this need that we have to research when we're interested.

B (25:43)

Right.

A (25:44)

To get to the bottom of a story, to talk to different people. No, it makes perfect sense to me, but I'm just surprised that that is their occupation and they're still struggling with the writing. But it really makes sense what you're saying though, that it's something different that happens and all of a sudden what was really easy is no longer easy.

B (26:04)

Or sometimes it was never easy to begin with, but they were passionate about it and now it's more of a freelance space where they constantly have to pitch. There's a lot fewer journalists who actually are employed. So it becomes harder and harder. There's more and more pressure and that makes things worse. Or maybe they've been struggling all along with the writing part, even though the researching part they got down and they kind of compensated with their intelligence for the writing struggles. But when they got their ADHD diagnosis late in life, they realized, oh wait, maybe this might have something to do with it.

A (26:39)

That makes perfect sense. So, Susanna, what do all of these ADHD writers have in common? No matter what kind of writing they're doing or they do?

B (26:53)

Right?

A (26:59)

Loving this episode. Imagine how much better life gets when you have the tools to create your ADHD brain's own operating manual so you can finally work with your brain, not against it. Your ADHD brain is a ok. Academy is my step by step patented program to help you figure it all out. Click the link in the first line of this episode's description to sign up or book an AOK discovery call. Now let's get back to the show.

B (27:36)

They are most of them are smart as women. Some of them are smart as men. They are brilliant. They are passionate. Most of them have compensated for their challenges for most of their lives. They have compensated for missed deadlines, for stupid spelling errors that they keep looking over because they do not really have a very eye for detail when they are in the zone or they have boom and bust cycles. They write a lot and then suddenly they have a writer's block and they can't do anything for four months. So a lot of them have these challenges. Yes, so most of them are very brilliant. But they also have these challenges that they have compensated for by just being better and being new and doing something completely creative and completely original that they then are getting known for. And when they get known for it, there's More pressure that adds on and the challenges get worse.

A (28:33)

So a lot of them probably compensate by working harder, right?

B (28:38)

Working harder and being brilliant, being more original, doing better, coming up with more interesting ideas, defining whole new genres or whole new disciplines, just doing something better and bigger than anyone has done before so that they can compensate for the missed deadline.

A (28:57)

What I've noticed with adhd, anecdotal, but I have some friends that they have adhd, like extreme adhd. Actually, the woman that I'm thinking of right now, and she cannot live without writing, she is writing every single day. I all different kinds of writing, all at the same time. This quote was attributed to her, but I'm not even sure that she actually said it. She was a lot like me where I hate writing, but I love to have written. And so I am curious if you have adhd. And I do believe that, you know, we are all truly brilliant at something. And some people, this just comes so easy to. And they have adhd. And then there are other challenges they have with adhd. And then for others of us, I think most of us with adhd, we really struggle to do the writing. And so I'm curious if you've seen that, and I get that the people that would go to you would be the people that struggle with it, but have you also seen people who don't struggle at all and have ADHD and they have to write, it's more they'd rather write than talk versus I would always rather talk.

B (30:06)

Right. I have seen both. But I think that even the people with ADHD who need to write every single day have challenges. For example, I know a lot of people who, maybe your friend does the same thing, who write a lot, who write every day, who have to write, who have to express themselves through writing. If they don't write for a day, they feel miserable, but they are unhappy with their output. They are unhappy because they never finish a project. They keep starting new projects because they rely on novelty, or they keep getting stuck in the messy middle, being completely confused and then just abandoning it and moving on to the next thing. So I think that even the people for whom just writing a sentence or a paragraph comes naturally, and I am one of them, very luckily have challenges around writing, mostly because it's never smooth sailing with adhd, is it?

A (31:01)

What is the primary challenge?

B (31:04)

A lot of the people I work with come to me with either motivation or the question of consistency. They feel that they have to be consistent. Now, I often say that for ADHDers, consistency is a myth and it's never going to really work for you. That is work we can do in coaching sessions. But usually initially what they tell me is it's consistency and it's motivation. In the end, it turns out that their motivation is not necessarily a problem. They are motivated, but they can't get started because they have made the project too big, or they don't know what their natural way in is, or they do not know what they are going to say yet. And therefore they can't get started because they don't know where to start. So there's a lot of breaking projects down into smaller bits or getting clearer on what it is that you want to say, how you want to structure what it is that you're going to say. There's a lot of fighting there as well. The same balance between structure and freedom that I talked about before, you also find in writing where some people swear that they cannot write following a structure. But what I found with those people, for example, is usually they get stuck in the messy middle. They start with all these brilliant ideas, they create all these threads, and then they're in the middle and they think, okay, I'm now surrounded by threads. How am I going to tie this all together? Where am I going with this? And they get completely overwhelmed by the brilliance that their brain put on the page. There's a lot of different specific. It's not that I teach the same framework over and over again. The way I see my coaching sessions is more I ask them how things are going. We are ADHDers. We give honest answers. And then based on that answer, I figure out what is the block that is keeping you from achieving your goal right now, this week. And then we work on the block and I have a whole host of tools and strategies and systems to that can help them work through it. So there's no one thing that is keeping every ADHD writer from writing. It is all the ways in which ADHD affects your life. ADHD also affects your writing. Your life can be messy. Your writing can be messy. You can have too much structure and feel completely locked off of your blocked off of your creativity, or you can have not enough structure and feel demotivated, disbelief, disoriented, not knowing where you're going, with all of this lack of momentum, et cetera. There's like as many ADHD as there are. There are ADHD writing problems.

A (33:37)

You've said that ADHD writers can change minds, hearts and the world. And we all know how important storytelling is. I get that the problem, which is probably why writing Might be a better venue for someone with an ADHD brain. But you know how we can be all over the place. So we have this story we want to tell and pretty soon we're telling all these stories around it and trying to figure out how to get into. Okay, well, this is what I really wanted to talk about. So I get that you're going to say that ADHD storytelling is so powerful, right? It's different than what a neurotypical will typically produce. But how do we get to the story and we strip it away so we don't have all these other stories that we're telling around it.

B (34:32)

I completely understand what you're saying. So there's some very boring and practical strategies that I'm not going to go into. But if we stick to the conceptual level, I think one of the. And you might recognize this. I think one of the challenges that you're describing is, has to do with our affected time sense. We feel that if we're going to tell these stories, we have to tell them now because there is no such thing as a future in which I can pick up the next story that I've already conceptualized. Everything you come up with as you're writing needs to go into this one project. Now, when you use your brilliant, logical brain to say, okay, yes, of course there's going to be a future, of course I can just take this out, put it aside somewhere. One of my clients called it the ideas parking lot. Put it aside somewhere and maybe use it for a sequel. Or maybe use it as a bridge to the next story that I'm going to write. It becomes a lot easier to untangle all these different ideas when you just hold onto this thought that there will be a future in which you can do something else. So I always say that us ADHDers, we have a two dimensional way of thinking. Neurotypical people think in a one dimensional way. They think from point A to B to C to D. We think two dimensionally. We start with point A and then we see how it connects to B, C and D and we see how that connects to all these other things. We see it as a two dimensional map. Right? So what I'm saying is when you are writing, writing is a one dimensional form of communication. It is a storyline, it is a line of argumentation, it is a character arc, it is one dimensional. So what you need to do when you are telling your story is you take this two dimensional map that you have in your head of the amazing story that you want to tell. And for the purposes of this story, you draw a line through the map. You are not saying that the rest of the map doesn't exist, but you are mapping out one route for this particular story. Next story, you can draw another line on the same map, have a different route and come up with a different outcome. But for this particular one, we need one line because otherwise no one is going to be able to follow what you're saying. Because you can't capture a two dimensional map in a one dimensional line. It's impossible. So stop, stop trying to force yourself, stop thinking that if you can't capture your two dimensional map in a one dimensional storyline, that you are failing. Just see the map for what it is and accept that your story is going to be only a fraction of it.

A (37:15)

I think part of it, certainly with me, is everything feels important.

B (37:21)

Right.

A (37:21)

And when everything feels important, you just have a big mess.

B (37:26)

Yes.

A (37:27)

So I can see that working with someone like you, where you're literally processing and saying, well, wait a minute, is that really important? And taking the time to actually think it through. And I know with my book I would get so anxious with editing, right? Because there were stories and it was too many stories or, you know, Tracy, you can't tell this story. It's too this, this, or. And I'm like, well, why not? You know, because we also, we don't really want to play by everyone's rules. And so if someone's going to tell me, oh, you can't tell that story because someone isn't going to like you, I'm like, well, screw that. But I'm not really getting the bigger picture where, okay, but maybe there's a way you can tone it down so you're not actually offending people.

B (38:12)

Yes. There's two ways that I would go about this as an editor. I would say we are not removing this, we are not deleting this, we are taking it out of the book. Where can we put it? Because we don't want to kill our darlings. But if I can tell you, hey, look, maybe this would be a great story to put on your blog where everyone who already knows you and who loves the way that you communicate actually can appreciate the story that you're telling, then we can use that as marketing for the book that's coming out. Right? So I would say we're not cutting it. We are finding a different place for it. Whether that is a place where you can use it right now or put it somewhere else because it feels safer. You feel a lot less defensive when you can put it somewhere else than when it needs to be cut. So as an editor, I would be a little bit more gentle about it and a little. I would ask you, okay, where can it go instead? As a coach, I would really try. So the thing about the coaching sessions is one thing that I've noticed is that as adhders, when we're writing, we are either on the big picture level or on the detailed view. We are either mapping out the book and thinking about how to promote it, or thinking about how to talk about it or thinking about how to structure it, or we are thinking, or we are focused on that one sentence that we're writing right now within that story that we're telling right now. In this particular chapter, we cannot easily bridge the two. We cannot hold onto one when we're working on the other. So when you are writing this story or trying to edit it down or trying to make it a little bit less radical, you are not thinking about the big picture. You are thinking only about the thing that you're working on right now. And that thing feels important because it's the only thing that exists for you now. One thing that works within these coaching sessions, and it kind of touches on what it is that you were saying as well. In the coaching sessions, I kind of pull you out of the detailed view and talk to you about the big picture. Now, if we talk about the big picture of your book, what is it that you want to achieve in this book? And you tell me, well, I want to give people the feeling that they have so much potential, they just need to understand their brain. Then suddenly the radicalness of the story is no longer that important. Because if I tell you, hey, if I read this, I actually get so focused on these bits that I no longer connect to this larger story that you're trying to tell, then you will agree with me that this probably doesn't belong, because when we look at the big picture, it doesn't quite fit. So there's an editor answer and a coaching answer there.

A (40:52)

That is fascinating. And what I love that you said is if you'd pull it out and put it. Give it to people who already know you and like you, they're gonna get it. They're gonna get the humor. They're gonna get the radicalness of it, because they've already, you know, they already know who you are versus you. Give that to someone who doesn't know you, and they're gonna think, oh, my God, she's an arrogant asshole. So it totally. It makes sense. But I Love how you. I don't know how you separate out all the threads. I'm actually sitting here listening to you and thinking, I would love to write a book where I got to work with you, where you're literally questioning these things rather than me all by myself, you know, putting this in. That was the first time that I've actually had that thought, because literally everybody asks you, once you write one book, when are you going to write another one? I'm like, over my dead body. Absolutely not. But I think it was also because. And I had some great editors. That's not the issue. But the editing was more along the lines of, let's get this book in shape. We've got a deadline, you know, versus. What I would have loved is more along the beginnings as I was shaping the book, feeling like I had a partner in it and that I did not have. I just felt a lot of pressure because of deadlines. I had to write the book in four months, which was insane. And I am the kind of person who I overdo everything, right? So everything was too much and too long, and it took me, you know, forever. So that was the first time that I've had a thought, oh, I'd actually like to work with her. I'd actually like to write a second book.

B (42:32)

You better mention me in the acknowledgments of that book that's coming out next year.

A (42:37)

I was recently on a podcast, I think it was on Monday, about bipolar disorder. And the host is a writer, and she runs writing workshops, kind of for mental health. Right. She's an editor, and she shared with me that there is research that shows that when something traumatic happens, people who write about it actually do much better because they're able to process the trauma by writing. And that kind of, you know, is like, ding, ding, ding in my brain. Because I've, you know, I've talked about how I unexpectedly lost my mother two years ago. I am still in awe of how I was able to process that trauma without falling apart. And it's been two years now, so I think it would have happened by now. I kept kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop. But I think it was for two reasons. I think the first reason was, as this was all going on and she was in ICU for two weeks, I was literally tapping, tapping through all of it. So I was able to process what was in my body and get it out. But the second thing was, we're ADHD people, and I'm the firstborn, and I happen to be a Daughter as well. So I basically ran everything from hosting my uncle who was here for 10 days, from Germany to the service, to the after reception, to being there at the hospital every single day, all day, making a lot of decisions that my other family members just really struggled with. They really were struggling. And I somehow was able to just pull it together. And so it was the tapping, but it was also the one thing that I asked my brother to do. I said, and there's four of us kids, but one of my brothers, I asked him, could you please do the eulogy? And he said, okay. And then a couple days before he told me, I can't do it. I just can't do it. I'm sorry. And I'm so grateful frankly that he couldn't do it because then I had to do it. And I am telling you, there was something about writing that eulogy that really helped. And so I'm curious, do you know anything about this, what your thoughts are about it? And I wonder too, a lot of these authors is what they're doing while they're writing, processing their own trauma and experiences, things that happen to them.

B (45:05)

I have worked with a lot of people who are writing trauma, who are writing memoir to process their trauma, to work through their trauma. Currently I'm working with someone who's writing a memoir about how she has suppressed the memory of her trauma and the fact of that suppressing and not being able to access the memories, that is what she's writing about. I am a huge fan. I do think that when you write about your trauma and for a eulogy, you must have had so much strength to do that. I am very, very impressed with you. A eulogy is a shorter text though. Now when you are writing a memoir, a 60,000 word book about your experiences, you are going to immerse yourself in this trauma for months to years. And what you have to be careful of is not to re traumatize yourself through the writing. So you do need to be very sensitive to what is going on. I often, because we usually don't have a lot of introspection, we are not very aware of what is happening in our bodies, especially when we're writing. I often recommend that when you're writing trauma, write in short bursts. Do not sit down to write for six hours because you do not know how you're going to come out of it right in shorter bits of time. Then come out, regulate your nervous system, do some tapping and check in with where you are and how you're feeling, because you do not, no work of art, however powerful it can be, however much it can help others to read your story is worth you re traumatizing yourself by pulling in all these threads that you've been burying. So, yes, write trauma, absolutely. It can be helpful. It can be powerful. It can produce some of the best writing and storytelling you've ever seen. It can help you on a psychological level. But please be careful with your mental health.

A (47:06)

Can you share a story about a client who completely changed their relationship with writing?

B (47:13)

Yes. And I want to preempt this by quickly giving you a quick definition of a term that I came up with, and that is a toxic relationship with writing. So a lot of people who find me are in deep trouble because you don't start looking for an ADHD writing coach if you just casually think that maybe you want to write a novel one day. Right. You have to have a deep passion and you have to feel a real challenge if you are going to be one of the first people in the world to Google ADHD writing coach, because that is where we were in the past few years. So some of these people have what I call a toxic relationship with their writing. And this is one reason why I care so much about my job, is that. But the writing doesn't stand on its own. It is related to the other parts of your life. And what I see with a lot of people is they develop a relationship with their writing that is so negative that every time they think about writing, they feel shame, they feel guilt, they feel fear, they feel bad about themselves. Their confidence drops, and that starts to affect the rest of their lives too. It starts to affect their personal relationships, their performance at work, and everything else. So that is what I call a toxic relationship with writing. It's one that corrodes everything around you. Your confidence, your health, your relationships, your performance, everything. So many people I work with are actually at that point, and some are on the road to that point. Oh, I once worked with a novelist who was absolutely phenomenal. She was fantastic. She had come out with a book that was so popular that she pretty much earned enough for the rest of the year just by selling that one book. But the book had ended on a cliffhanger and her fans needed more.

A (49:11)

So, good problem, but bad problem.

B (49:14)

The fans were so passionate that they kept sending her messages. When does it come? When is it coming? When is it coming? We need to know what happens next. And that pressure mounted to the point where she couldn't write anymore. For three months, she didn't write a word. She showed up to her computer every single day, but nothing came out. It was just a complete writer's block and everything was affected. She needed to write this book, if only to get those people off her back. So first what I told her is let's forget about this book. Don't look at your social media, do not check your email. Let's play. Because the reason why she started writing in the first place is that she loved it and she wasn't enjoying it anymore. And if there's one thing I know about ADHDers is if we do not enjoy something, it's going to be very, very hard to do it, even without all the mental health stuff and the toxic relationship and everything being affected. So I told her what I tell a lot of people. We're going to play. I want you to play with ideas, come up with a whole lot of different ideas that you might be interested in. I said, when is the last time you allowed yourself to work on anything else? And she said, I haven't allowed myself to work on anything else because this is the book that I need to write. I need to write this and I'm not allowed to do anything fun until I have written this book. So she actively denied herself the joy that brought her to writing in the first place. So we forget about the book, she goes away, she plays with ideas, she comes back and she has half a novella written. She wrote a novella in a month after we worked together for two months. She wrote a novella in a month, had that edited, had it self published, and her fans were appeased and that momentum led her to write the next book too. So the key for her was play and joy reconnecting with that joy that brought you to writing instead of what so many of us ADHDers do, denying ourselves to joy because we haven't eaten our vegetables yet.

A (51:25)

That's a great story. One follow up question on the kinds of people you work with, when you say that you work with academics, are you talking about people trying to write their dissertation?

B (51:40)

I work with a lot of professors and I work with people who are writing their dissertation because people who are writing their dissertation with ADHD struggle a lot. Yes.

A (51:49)

Oh yeah. I think it was Kathleen Nadeau who said that all the abd.

B (51:55)

All the dissertation. Yeah, that's right.

A (51:58)

That most of those people, probably all of those people have adhd, which is so sad. And I remember talking to. It was a professor who specifically worked with people who were struggling to get their dissertations done. And I asked her, do they have adhd? And she looked at me and she said, actually, yeah, I'm like, you haven't put that together. How are you supposed to help them if you don't even realize that this is what's going on? That makes me so sad because you have worked so hard to get to that point, and then you Never get your PhD because you couldn't get it done.

B (52:40)

It's true. People come to me who have been trying for seven years and are about.

A (52:43)

To give up, and then they don't. They get it done.

B (52:46)

They get it done. Of course they do. It is magical. It is wonderful to see a person who has struggled for seven years because no one could tell them, this is what your ADHD brain is doing to you right now, and this is how you can work with that. Maybe stop fighting it and start leaning in. I had a coaching session yesterday where I told an academic, I hate to tell you this again, but you do have adhd, so why not start accepting it and actually taking it into account when you make your planning? Because people don't make that connection between academic work and adhd. But of course, it has an impact. It impacts everything. A lot of PhD candidates and professors, people who have gotten very far in life, even though they struggle through their PhD, but just feel like they can't do it anymore, people give me ultimatums. They say, if I can't get this done in six months, if I can't get this done in two years, I will leave academia. I can't do this anymore. Even though they have published in the best journals, they have radically changed their fields. They just can't do it anymore unless they find a healthier and better way to do it. There's a lot of tears in my coaching sessions.

A (54:07)

Have you discovered. Hopefully tears of joy, too. Have you discovered or. When you're thinking about the clients that you work with and have worked with, the ones that are highly successful and then start to struggle, is it typically in their mid-40s and beyond?

B (54:27)

Yes. And it's right after they get diagnosed? Yes.

A (54:31)

Which all kind of comes together, right, because we know estrogen modulates dopamine. And so they may have been working just fine with their brain until their estrogen starts going down.

B (54:41)

Yep. They. They get diagnosed during perimenopause and then they find me within a year. Within a year or two. It's one of the first steps they take after diagnosis is finding me and finding help for this problem that they've been struggling with just below the service for a while, and that now is untenable.

A (55:02)

Well, it's Kind of like what you were saying. You would do these jobs for five months, eight months, love them. So that's probably if they're actually. Which they would have been. If they're so successful, they would have been in their area of interest. But you can imagine even though it's your area of interest, it probably gets a little boring, right? There's less of that excitement. So it all makes sense. So I understand that you are now creating a new platform to help companies support ADHD employees with writing. Can you talk a little bit about that?

B (55:36)

I would love to because it really ties into everything we've talked about. As I said, I have realized that a lot of academics struggle. And the problem with a lot of academics is also that they do not get institutional support. They do not know what kind of institutional support they could get. And sometimes they are afraid to self disclose because they are afraid that they're going to be judged. I decided that I had been helping a lot of academics, but I want to be able to spread the word that academics with ADHD need help. They exist. They are some of the most brilliant and amazing people you'll ever have. They will be able to define fields, put your university on the map, but only if they get the support that they need. The same is true with what you just described. The big publishers who have ADHD authors under contract, who just keep, in your case it wasn't true, keep missing their deadlines, keep not living up. Those publishers need to know that these ADHDers need support and that that support exists. And there's a lot of NGOs, people who are doing organizations that are doing amazing work. Their staff writes a lot, writes a lot of media releases, writes a lot of journal article, magazine articles, writes a lot of reports. But they struggle because that is also an area where there's a lot of ADHDers. So I want to offer a platform that is a lot less touchy feely than my personal website, which was designed and created by me when I still didn't know much about web Design to give ADHDers who write the feeling that they are not alone. That doesn't help with the larger mission that I'm now on. So I'm building a new platform to help universities, publishers and NGOs initially get more information on and be able to access support for their ADHD talent.

A (57:43)

Do you only work one to one or do you also work in, do you have groups?

B (57:48)

I also offer groups and I have a weekly body doubling session where ADHD writers just get together at the start of the hour, they tell us what they want to be working on and at the end of the hour we, we check in, say how far we got and usually I can't help myself and I coach a little. So I am trying to create more community as well because I know that so many ADHD writers feel completely isolated, feel like they're the only ones struggling with these challenges and it is time to kind of end that to make people feel a lot less like they just have to try harder. And it's all their own fault because that is a story I keep hearing over and over again. So yeah, group coaching sessions, body doubling sessions, and one on one coaching.

A (58:34)

The beauty of this is once you figure out what your formula is, then you can use it every single time you write. But to keep doing the same things you've been doing over and over again and having so much negative emotion. I'm sorry. That also affects the quality of your writing. Not only is it harder, but you're not as good.

B (58:54)

Right? It's absolutely true. Yes. You are a better writer when you're happy and taking care of yourself. Yes, totally.

A (59:01)

So Susanna, where can people find you if they want to know more about you and what you do?

B (59:07)

I am on most platforms, but I'm mostly active on Instagram for the individuals and I'm about to relaunch my LinkedIn for the more company oriented stuff. So if you have to write for work, then maybe my LinkedIn might be more interesting. If you write out of passion, then maybe my personal Instagram might be more helpful for you. But the best place to find me is passionatercoaching.com where you can find links to everything else I do, including my blog, YouTube channel and everything else. I come up with my own ADHD brain. Yes. Great, great.

A (59:49)

So we will have all of that in the show notes as well. But just to reiterate, go to the website passionatercoaching.com correct?

B (59:57)

Yes.

A (59:59)

Okay, before I let you go, what is your number one ADHD workaround?

B (60:04)

Okay. It's less a workaround. My ADHD workaround is just accept that you have adhd. There's such liberation in accepting that your memory recall is faulty and no longer expecting yourself to pull up things from your internal memory bank. Just put it outside of yourself. If you are bad at planning stuff, then find tools that will help you plan stuff instead of just forcing yourself to keep doing this thing that you're not good at. So accept that you have adhd, accept all the little things that you struggle with and then find strategies and solutions for each instead of just wishing, trying to wish the ADHD away, which hasn't helped you in the past.

A (60:50)

Yeah. And also understanding that these things you struggle with. Okay, but there are opposing strengths, Right? Like empathy and fearlessness and like all of the things that have even gotten you to the point where you're writing about, you're telling people about. Right. You're writing. So anyway, Susana, it was wonderful to meet you and talk to you. Thank you so much for spending time with us here today.

B (61:16)

It was such a pleasure. Tracy, thank you so much for having me.

A (61:20)

Absolutely. So that's what I have for you for this week. If you liked this episode with Susana, please let us know by leaving a review. Our goal is to change the conversation around adhd. Helping is many women as we possibly can learn how their ADHD brains work so that they too may discover their amazing strengths. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you here next week. You've been listening to the ADHD for Smartass Women podcast. I'm your host, Tracey Outsuka. Join us at adhd for smartwomen.com where you can find more information on my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women. And my patented you'd ADHD brain is a okay system to help you get unstuck and fall in love with your brilliant brain. If you've been nodding along to this episode, thinking, wow, this is me, it's time to stop just listening and start making some real changes. My program, your ADHD Brain, is AOK Academy, is designed to help you work with your brain, not against it. It's not about forcing yourself into systems that don't fit. It's about finally understanding what does. So if you're ready to stop spinning and start thriving, you'll find the link to my program in the first line of this episode's description. Your ADHD brain is actually brilliant, so let's make it work for you.