B (4:08)

Got it all, yeah. Thank you. It's great to be here, Tracy.

A (4:11)

So much there and so much of that sounds just exactly like adhd. It's just not enough to do one or two things, you know, there needs to be at least half a dozen or more before we talk about limerence and what it is and, you know, all of that. I would love to know what your ADHD diagnoses story is.

B (4:30)

Well, I was diagnosed when I was 36 and my parents had for a long time said, well, I think you have adhd. You know, my brother was diagnosed with ADHD when he was like in elementary school and he was hyperactive, very impulsive, and was on meds early on. And I was like, I'm not my, I'm not my brother. No, I'm, I'm a straight A student. I don't have adhd. My mom was a teacher. She was always like, that kid's got adhd. That kid, that kid, you know, So I was like, mom, you just on a witch hunt for ADHD. But, you know, it was when I was 35 that my mom had been out here in Boulder visiting and with me with a guy I was dating. We were out for dinner and she must have reported something to my father. And my father wrote me an email, as he does when he's very serious about something, and was like, you know, mother and I have thought you've had ADHD for a long time and now we're seeing it in your relationships. We're seeing it show up that you're too distracted and maybe it's potentially impacting getting in the way of a healthy relationship because you're, you know, who wants to be with somebody who looks like they're always like, you know, sees a squirrel, you know, and they're not present with you. And I think she saw that with the guy I was dating at the time. And I thought, okay, I've been able to pull everything else off academically and, and career wise, but relationships, this is somewhere I'm still stuck. Okay, dad, you got my attention. I went straight away to my primary care physician. She let me take a paper test. You know, check, check, check the boxes. She's like, yeah, looks like you could have some ADHD. Why don't we start you on, like, 10 milligrams, you know, small. You can even do half of that if you want, and see how it feels. And so that's how it's. That's how it started.

A (6:16)

Did the medication work?

B (6:18)

It did. It did help.

A (6:19)

What was it? First of all, everybody always wants to know that.

B (6:22)

Yeah, it was. I've taken a variety, and I've taken a little Ritalin, Adderall, Focalin, I think is something I've recently taken. It has worked. And I would take it as needed when I really needed to focus. When I was grading, when I had to write an article and I was under a deadline. And the biggest thing actually that showed me it was working was I had eyebrows for the first time in, like 15 years because I had started pulling my eyebrows out as a stress reliever, basically to help me focus, I think. And with the medication, it helped. And eyelashes too, right? So it's called trichotillomania.

A (7:02)

Yes, yes.

B (7:03)

And so that was the biggest thing that was like, oh, wow, this stuff works.

A (7:08)

It was just the relationships and it was your ability to focus. But was it more than that? Because it sounds like you ended up taking the medication when there were certain things that you needed to get done. So there were struggles, there were.

B (7:22)

That I didn't realize before. It was just the relationship was the red flag enough that I cared enough about it. I thought, oh, I can manage all these other things. I've managed it before. But the relationships I was still struggling with. I couldn't get into a healthy relationship. So I was like, you know, be bopping around and your question is like, how was it showing up? Now that I look back, how was it showing up in different ways? Early, early on, you know, I guess I was the kid who was super imaginative daydreamer, easily bored. My mom would always be like, what? You know, every day has to be a circus for you? And. And then actually when I was young, really young, they. I had these, like, exaggerated emotional responses. Like my mom thought I was a little nuts. And they Took the pediatrician at first and they were gonna put me on psycho seizure meds which don't even exist anymore. Like this, this thing that they. And then he's like, or you could go see a neurologist. And the neurologist saw me and was like, you just have a very strong willed kid on your hands and good luck. And so I'm not sure if some of those like intense emotions, you know, perhaps was something. Early on as a kid, anxiety kind of resulted in breathing problems, which later was diagnosed as asthma, incorrectly later again diagnosed as vocal cord dysfunction. More related to anxiety, which I think also was kind of getting the ADHD under control, helped control the anxiety a little bit. Fidgety, easily distracted, jumping from idea to idea in conversation, but also in my writing. So I knew I was a good writer. But the hardest problem I had was often piecing, piecing my ideas together so that somebody else could follow my train of thought. One run of my writer friends once or a coach said, oh, you got a beautiful garden here, but you need some stepping stones. Like I can't get through this. So I think there was that. And then the biggest thing that I talk about, particularly in my book When Longing Becomes yous Lover, is how adhd I didn't realize until really recently was actually impacting, was one of the reasons I had crush after crush after crush. So I would hyper fixate on these different people and as a competitive athlete set, you know, I also, I would set them as a goal. I will try to win their love. I will perform, I will impress. And you know, and it became like an organizing force in my life. Okay, okay, that one didn't work. Okay, I'll move on to the next, move on to the next. And usually put them on a pedestal so they were kind of unattainable. So it would make it like a more of a, a game. It would last longer. There's more of that anticipation, from what I understand with ADHD brains and help me if I'm getting this wrong, is that they have a quicker uptake of like dopamine. So they're more likely to go out searching for something that's going to get that dopamine again.

A (10:21)

Yeah, I mean we call it fast dopamine versus slow dopamine. You know, fast dopamine is like social media, right. It's so easy to just get, you know, sucked in and then afterwards you don't feel good versus slow dopamine. The counterbalancer example would be like reading a book. It's harder to get into it. But then once you get into it and you actually do reading, you're proud of yourself. There's a benefit to it versus social media. Usually there isn't.

B (10:48)

Yeah, exactly. So that was a fast dopamine sort of thing. The crushes themselves were. I was an English major. Reading was like, I was good. I was. I got A's, but it was still hard to sit still long enough through those long Jane Austen novels. So I think that's when I started doing the thing with my eyebrows in college. And they gave me Paxil for anxiety. And nobody diagnosed me with ADHD until like 15 years later. So that I was like, I don't. I don't really know that I'm anxious, but okay.

A (11:20)

So can I ask you, when you were in college, when you had to start reading these long novels, were you still. Because you mentioned you were an athlete, were you still really working out a lot or could that have been how you focused and then, you know, you stopped doing it?

B (11:37)

That would be like a successful way that I dealt with adhd. I feel like. Well, I would self medicate with long distance running and swimming, eventually triathlon, but the running especially. I was on cross country and track in high school and college. So that was a way that I would just like, I'd be able to like settle after I would run 10 miles, you know, and so that was a helpful. I know that some people can take that to an extreme, I think, and over exercise, potentially. But for me, it was definitely a healthy outlet. I remember when I was a kid and I would taper. I don't know if you know what tapering is like, right before a big competition. Right. Athletes will decrease the amount of mileage or yardage they're doing so that they're. Their body's really less torn down, so they can really hit it hard when it's a competition. And my parents would be like, oh, we hate taper because your mouth just runs. Right? Because I would just. I wasn't tired enough, basically. They're like, go, go, go, exercise. But I think those are a lot of the ways that it showed up for me.

A (12:41)

Were you diagnosed with combined type or primarily inattentive or did they tell you not.

B (12:47)

They never told me. They just said, yeah, at least me. I mean, I should. I would love to learn more about that, actually.

A (12:52)

Well, there's always hyperactivity, which is why they get. Got rid of the ADD right label. So I guess my question would be, is the hyperactivity primarily up here where you're just you know, the thoughts and you can't shut it down. Or is there also physical hyperactivity? And I have to tell you, even the women that have been diagnosed with inattentive adhd, I always feel like if I'm sitting there watching them, they're always moving something or tapping their foot or, you know, there is some outward hyperactivity.

B (13:21)

Yeah. I think, in fact, when I'm sitting here during podcasts, something that I do especially, I think it's to calm that need to feel like I want to move, is I push on my legs. If you see me sometimes, I might even. I would squeeze my arm really tight like this. It sounds like I'm crazy, but it works. There's some kind of pressure. I think that's why, like, even having a weighted blanket helps, but it's like I'm almost creating a waiting blanket on my own body.

A (13:50)

Yeah, well, and an awareness, too, right, That, I mean, they always talk about embodying, getting into your body, and that's a way to, hey, I've got a body, you know, if you're pushing on it. So, Amanda, I had never heard the word limerence. I'd heard limerick, but I didn't know what limerence was, and I had to go look at up. And so I am sure there are many listeners like me who have never heard that term. So can we start with. Because that's what you're going to talk to us about today. What is limerence?

B (14:25)

Yeah, Limerence is a psychological state of mind. It was actually a term coined in the late 70s by this experimental psychologist, Dorothy Tenov, and that. So it's a state of mind where somebody is ruminating sometimes obsessively, not always about and a romantic interest that they put on a pedestal. They've idealized. They see them sans flaws. Right. And we all have flaws. But this person, this, you know, crush, but it's like an intense crush. Limerence is also like this roller coaster ride, right, where you have these extreme highs of like, oh, maybe that person likes me back. They've. They looked at me a certain way, they responded to my text, they liked my story on Instagram, and then the extreme lows of. Of like, literally grief sometimes where they feel that person's withdrawing or they. They've gotten some sign of rejection. So with limerence, there's this constant seeking for validation, looking for clues, which is also particularly appealing for somebody with ADHD and is good, unfortunately, at sometimes seeing connections where there are none. We see them. The goal with limerence is that they want to have. They ideally want to feel like that their feelings for that person are reciprocated. And it's not from what most people I've talked to, it's not really a sexually based thing. It's more of a validation and wanting to see that their feelings are returned. And then so if they are, limerence goes away. What Dorothy Tenov described limerence as though, was that it's kind of like the initial state of falling in love. Right. So if both people have limerence for each other. Right. That's the most ideal situation. But then eventually limerence fades away for both of them, really. I mean, that's what I. How I understand it.

A (16:17)

Especially if you feel safe. Right. And if this is actually a good partnership and there's mutual respect, I don't think limerence can stay. Because you're both being too transparent.

B (16:30)

Exactly. Yeah. And that's the big thing, is that limerence thrives on uncertainty. So enter dating apps, social media, hookup culture. It's a complete perfect breeding ground for limerence. Add, throw on ADHD onto it and.

A (16:45)

You'Re like, well, you know what's interesting is when you use the word uncertainty. Uncertainty is something our brains don't do well with. That's just how our brains work. If there is uncertainty, we're going to figure it out. And I can imagine with someone like you who was an athlete, you were used to working really hard and getting what you wanted. And so why wouldn't that be the case in relationships then? Right. You're just not working hard enough.

B (17:20)

Exactly.

A (17:21)

So it makes perfect sense to me. And as you're talking about limerence, my thought is, are we sure this isn't just ADHD and relationships because of the rejection sensitivity?

B (17:34)

That's right, yeah. That was one tiny little thing that I mentioned in my book and more. And now that it's out, I'm seeing more and more about the rejection sensitivity. Is it dysphoria?

A (17:45)

Yeah.

B (17:46)

And I'm like, oh, yeah, I guess I kind of did have that in some ways. I would like, ask out some of the most obscenely hot guys though, knowing they would fully say no to me. So you would. So in some ways I was a bit of a contradiction, but I was almost like I felt like if I didn't try, I would just go for it. I would try it.

A (18:08)

Well, that's impulsivity. Right. And I mean, I think rejection, sensitive dysphoria, it all comes about because of adhd, Right. If you don't trust your brain and you don't know when your good brain's gonna show up. And then on top of that, from the time you're young, you've been told, oh, you're too much. You're not enough. This isn't how you do it. This is how you. Like, everything's wrong. I thankfully, was not raised in a family like that, but I still always felt like, oh, I'm too much. I can just kind of tell. Right. And so then you are looking for all of those other examples where you're too much.

B (18:52)

That's a great way to describe it. Yeah. Yeah. And I was. I think something you said earlier kind of goes along with that, that I felt like, especially being raised in the. You know, I was going to high school in the 90s, raised as, like, this alpha female. You want something, go after it. My dad would say, pull the trigger. You're in. You. You want to ask the guy out, ask the guy out. You want straight A's, you figure it out. You go after it. And so it worked in the classroom eventually, you know, in the career wise, athletically. But in relationships, it just did not work. And my dad once did tell me this was just in my late 30s. He's. I was like, I don't know if I asked him, why do you. Why isn't this. Things just aren't working. Why can't I find the guy? And he's like, I think you're. You're just too much for them, Amanda. I mean, he said that? And I was like, oh, God, like, where? How do I dial it back? And then. It wasn't until I was married, I said, dad, what did you really mean by that? And he said. He was like, said, this doesn't. I don't mean to say this like I'm pumping myself up, but he said, well, you're too smart, too pretty, too athletic to everything. Yeah. And I was like, why didn't you say that back then? You know? And he's like, well, why didn't you ask? You know? And instead I just internalized it instead of saying, well, dad, what did you really. What do you really mean by that?

A (20:13)

Limerence, to me sounds like some of the symptoms of borderline personality disorder as well, that they attach primarily to women, especially the intensity and the fear of abandonment. And I remember a psychiatrist, it was two, a man and a woman in Europe, and they were talking about. One of them said, in my research and what I've seen anecdotally, I believe that borderline personality disorder is just adhd. Women with ADHD and trauma, which I found fascinating because so much of limerence is probably choosing the wrong person. Like, it's as simple as that, right?

B (21:07)

Yeah. I mean, well, you're putting. For personally, for me, I mean, I was. I think I was self sabotaging myself by chasing emotionally unavailable people, physically unavailable, living far away, because it kept me in this safe place of avoiding real vulnerable intimacy. And it allowed the fantasy to continue because I could continue to see them and envision us working out. And so, yeah, I think there is that. I had to start seeing myself as actually being worthy of love in order to actually receive it from somebody who was actually available to give it. And then the trauma piece. A lot of people do say that limerence stems from childhood trauma, neglect, a narcissistic parent or alcoholic parent or moving a lot, or adoption or all kinds of. All kinds of things that can happen. Right.

A (22:05)

All kinds of trauma.

B (22:07)

Yeah. And for me, I was like, well, I had a really good childhood and my parents, I feel like, are great. But when I did look back, I think as long everybody can peel back and find some trauma, whether or not you feel like it was enough. For me, it was. I was. My mom. When I was born, my mom had a stroke. They pulled me out in time, and she had a grandma seizure, and then she had another one. And so I went home with my grandmother for three weeks and my mother stayed in the hospital three weeks, you know, and perhaps maybe that made a difference, I don't know. But I think it potentially impacted my. And they say, you know, that I get ADHD stems too from childhood, from. From traumas at birth or like layers of it. So potentially. So it makes sense, I think, why I would be out there searching for someone that felt very unavailable because my mother was very unavailable for quite a while.

A (23:05)

Yeah. And those early years are so important. The first, you know, even couple months, you know, as far as bonding adhd, I don't believe ADHD comes from trauma.

B (23:17)

Okay.

A (23:18)

But I do believe that when you have adhd, you can experience trauma. I mean, I think ADHD is genetic. Your brother had it and did. Which one of your parents or did either one of your parents do you think had?

B (23:31)

Well, my brother's adopted, actually. They decided, okay, mom had a stroke. We're not doing that again. I don't if either of them perhaps more. My mother might have more adhd or a grandparent or grandparent could have been probably maybe more of my grandfather.

A (23:47)

I mean, the problem is ADHD and trauma. They both, like, the symptoms are so similar. And so if you already have ADHD and then you have trauma, your symptoms, of course, are much worse.

B (23:58)

Yeah, it's hard to untangle.

A (24:01)

So why don't you tell us your story? Because I know your story, which is fascinating. Why don't you tell it so then we can talk around that and then our listeners will know what the hell we're talking about. Like, how did you get interested in this subject of limerence and longing and start writing and all of that?

B (24:17)

Okay, so in a nutshell, you know, I was like in my late 30s. I was a late in life virgin. I was dating a lot of guys. I was very sexually active. I was reserving sexual intercourse to be in a committed and loving relationship. But here I was also chasing people who were never going to commit in love to me either, because I had gotten close once and gotten burnt. So I just reeled it all in and dated a lot of Peter Pans. And to be frank, I was probably a bit of a Peter Pan myself too. And so I was in therapy and a somatic therapist, you know, she was. I remember at one point I was like, I'll figure it out. I'll figure it out. And she's like, Amanda, you will never figure it out. Like, you have to feel your way through it. And I'm like, ew, I'm an athlete. I don't want to feel it. That's. You never cross the finish line if you feel the aches and pains in your body. So. But eventually she was like sitting. I was sitting with her and she was like, you know, longing is your lover, Amanda. Like, that's what you're in love with, longing. You're in love with the idea of falling in love, that actually being in love. And so I started doing more unraveling about that. I still didn't really know about limerence yet. And looking, looking at my patterns and who, why I had chased after these guys who were emotionally unavailable in different ways and how it had become just my story and it was familiar. So that's just kind of what you continue doing, right? Who would I be if I wasn't single, Amanda having the next next crush, you know, But I was getting older and I'm like, I can't keep this up. I would, I would like to have a kid too, if it's possible. And out here in Boulder, people seemingly seem like young forever, right? You've got these women in their 50s qualifying for the Olympic trials and so forth in the marathon. But, you know, the reality was I was getting older and I was getting fed up with my own. My own patterns. So started doing more, diving into my patterns and then working with my therapist and trying to unravel all these pieces. And eventually, fast forward. I met the guy who I am not married to. He was very patient with me. He was very available. In some ways, it felt boring because he was interested in me. He was kind. He took me to the airport, he picked me up, brought flowers. I was like, when is the next shoe gonna drop? He asked me to go to Paris. I was like, what are you expecting? But we went, had a great time. He had been. And he was pretty newly divorced out of like an 18 year relationship. And I tell him now, I was like, if I hadn't scooped you up when I had somebody would. Because you were such. He was like the secure kind of guy, right? Secure attachment, really good guy. And somebody I would have told, adios, dude. Like 10 years, even five years before, because he was way too nice.

A (27:17)

So that was the pattern. You would find guys that would have been much better partners. But you were like, nope, not him. He's too nice.

B (27:26)

Too nice. Boring, too available. Nothing to chase after. Even at one point, my dad told some guy, this is in the book too, this guy named Bob. He took me, picked me up, a high school friend to a wedding. And as we were getting ready to walk out the door, my dad yells, treat her like shit. Because he had gotten sick of me, basically dissing all the really nice guys who were kind of like him because he was kind of a boring, steady, nice guy. And Bob was a really nice guy. And I was like, I'll explain to you later. But anyways, so yes, guys that were really charming, some, I wouldn't say all narcissistic types, but, you know, exciting guys that I would like. Even eventually I turn this not into just chasing emotionally unavailable, but, like, take turning it into romance tourism. Like, I'm gonna fly somewhere and I'm gonna meet somebody, you know, and it really amped up the dopamine. So create a mission. Give me a mission.

A (28:28)

So, okay. Was it also, though, because I laugh about this all the time. I would be really interested in someone, and then the minute they reciprocated, I was like, oh, that was too easy. Nope, not interested. Because it was. It was the. The thrill of the hunt.

B (28:44)

Yeah. And you know, when I think, like, I go back to the alpha female growing up, like, nothing was really worth something unless you chased after it. If you chased after it and you won it, you know, that's. But it just didn't work with relationships and. But that's kind of how my brain was wired.

A (29:03)

What about perfectionism? Was there also this sense of, okay, so let's say you find someone and they're pretty good, but then there could always be better. Right? You could do better.

B (29:15)

Absolutely.

A (29:16)

Competitive with yourself kind of.

B (29:19)

Exactly. I felt like if I could win that really good looking guy who was athletically talented or artistically talented, what would that say about me? You know what I mean? And I feel like that was something I didn't even really even come to realize until I was writing the book was just how much I was really maybe not in love with the guys, but the. But how. But wanting to embody who they were. If they, if I could be with that person, if they want more so if they wanted me back, what would that say about me? How would that perfect me? And to realize I was always going to be imperfect and nobody could perfect me and that it was okay being with somebody who was imperfect, which everybody is, right. Then that takes the pressure off. And it took the pressure off me to be. To feel like I had to be perfect. But for sure, perfectionism was part of it.

A (30:13)

You know, let's say when you were in your late 30s or you know, even early 40s, did you ever look back and say, oh my gosh, I made such a mistake because here was this nice guy and that nice guy and why don't I like the nice guys? Like, what. What happened? That this is what I'm attracted to.

B (30:32)

For sure.

A (30:32)

Yeah.

B (30:32)

And I think that also meant that it also became this thing with like, virginity. Even though I know people, some people think it's a social construct. Whatever. This thing that I had reserved, right. My goal to have sexual intercourse in this committed and loving relationship. Why? What if I had met. What if I had passed up all these other really nice guys? What would make this guy the right guy? Does that make sense? Like, so then it just amped it up to like find the perfect one. And. And then what I realized was ultimately there was no. People know this, right? But it's still hard to shake it out of your head. There was no soulmate. There was no perfect person. There was just, I feel like the right timing. If I had met Dave 10 years before, obviously he was married too, so that wouldn't have worked. But. Or if I met him like when we were. If we had both been in high school together, he was like goth. Like he was in the band. Like a drummer band. No. So it's like timing and then Ourselves being at the right place at the right time, that changes, that impacts things. So when I, I don't know if this is an ADHD thing, but regretting, like, I overthink things. So I have a hard time making decisions because I'm afraid I'm going to make the wrong one. Yep. And then I regret. I'm like, I'm going to regret it. Whatever you, my, my dad would be like, you're going to regret whatever you choose to just pull the trigger and decide something.

A (31:51)

You know, if you're, if you're still a virgin in your 40s.

B (31:54)

I was 40. I was 41 when I finally had sexual intercourse with Dave.

A (31:59)

Okay. So if you're, you're, you're, you know, you've just put this on such a high pedestal. Like, it's the pinnacle. Like, you'd have to be, you know, an Olympic athlete and a this and that in order to be able to qualify.

B (32:11)

Right, right.

A (32:13)

I can imagine how that would happen. So I can somewhat relate to what you're saying. And this is, Is it embarrassing? I don't, I don't know. I say everything here. I had a rule. I got married pretty young, but I had a rule, and it was called. And I have especially male friends who still make fun of this today. My rule, I called it the one year rule because, like, you, you know, there was a lot of, like, my friends weren't like this. You know, my friends were like going out and sleeping with whomever. And I just, I know what I'm capable of, and I am not capable of having anything but a serious relationship. And that is not just, you know, intimate relationships. That's also, you know, with women friends. Like, I just am not the kind of person who's going to sit there and talk about the weather and, you know, I, I'm intense. And so I just knew that about myself. And I did not want to be in a position where I was giving up that part of me to someone who wasn't equally as committed, you know, someone that didn't. I needed to make sure that that person actually loved me. And I loved them. So I was really this. I mean, I didn't have friends like that. You know, I was like a weirdo in that, in that respect. And I remember when my son. So now I'm going decades later. I remember when my son, he was working with a. He was going to be tested and the psychologist had this really interesting way of testing students. So he worked with my son through the whole summer before he would be Willing to test him. Just having my son come in and talk to him. And so he really got to know my son, and he said something to me one time when I was walking out, and he said, these kinds of kids, they attach. And I remember, you know, thinking. And it was kind of like the way he said it, it was like, boys, which is a little bit more, I guess, in his, you know, is sexist. But boys don't typically attach as easily as girls do. But these kind of kids, they attach. That was what he was saying. And I was thinking, what are you talking about? I'm exactly like that, you know, and my son is the same way. Like, he is just not interested in, you know, superficial B.S. kind of relationships. Not, you know, not in any way, regardless of who you're talking about. And I really think that, you know, they talk a lot about ADHD and the impulsivity and, you know, the pregnancy rate and the. And I'm certain. And I know that there are people like that, but I also think that there are people more like us where. I don't know, it's. We just feel like we have to get it right, and we are not willing to risk ourselves until we're sure that that person is right yet. Then we've got that perfectionistic standard, and we keep upping the ante. So this makes perfect sense for me when it comes to adhd.

B (35:20)

Yeah. What you just described does resonate with me, and I feel like it's. You know, I even call my say to myself overthinking. Oh, you're an overthinker, right? Or people would say to me, oh, just get it over with. Rip the band aid off. You're overthinking it. You know, and. But there was a part of me that was like, no. Like, I similarly, like, with these, I would hook up and I would still attach. Right? Just. And so I was afraid if I went that far with somebody, this goal that I had set, that I would really get hurt. And so I. That's more. Even more so why I set that goal. Okay, well, I'm gonna set this way out there, and then I can protect myself, because I just didn't want to feel burnt.

A (36:01)

And I mean, to me, maybe it's not the norm, but it also shows self worth to me and what I know that I am capable of. And I just felt. I mean, I don't think we ever. I ever actually went to the one year mark, but it was long enough that I always knew that this is a committed relationship. And, you know, My guy friends would be like, they're still hanging out.

B (36:29)

You know, it's like, I'm curious, would you tell the guy when you're dating, I have this one year rule? Okay. Yeah.

A (36:40)

Before we dive back in, a quick reminder. Your brain is not disordered. The problem is no one ever gave you its manual. But I can and I will. Your ADHD brain is a. Ok. Academy is my step by step patented program to help you figure it all out. Click the link in the first line of this episode's description to learn more or book a discovery call. Now let's get back to the show. I mean, again, you know, it, it, it never went quite that long, but it went long enough that I was absolutely certain that we were both in the same headspace. Because what I didn't want is what you were just talking about where, you know, you attach. And then it's like, oh, well, I'm not interested. Cause I just know that that would be devastating to me.

B (37:35)

Yeah. Yeah. With Dave, I met him in just from a timeline standpoint, since we're talking about it, I met him. We actually knew of each other because we had both coached in the same circles, running circles. We had lots of mutual friends. We'd been at the same weddings, we had been at the same races and for years. And we were in the same pictures we found like from 2007, 2007, 2008. And so I met him in July 2018. And then we went. Had our first date in September 2018, and then we went to French Polynesia with the goal of like, you know, having sex. And. But I was like, I just don't want to like, roll over and go to work the next day. You know, I want to have space away. And I feel like also, it also felt the other thing was the same. Same thing. That's a lot of pressure to go that far. What if it didn't work out? And I said that to him too. What if I get down there and I freak out and he's like, it's okay, it's okay, I will wait. And the other thing was that I felt like if I, you know, I feel like when you travel, you are always more willing to expand and do things you may not necessarily do. So in some ways, being somewhere completely exotic and so far away felt like it was a safer place to actually explore a new part of me with somebody.

A (38:58)

Well, and it's beautiful and yeah, I mean, it's not like some shitty motel and you know.

B (39:04)

Right, right, right. So.

A (39:06)

And you deserve that. After four decades, frankly.

B (39:10)

Thank you.

A (39:11)

I just really believe that, you know, and I see so many young people and they're just struggling in all these relationships and everything's always chaos and they're up and down depending on how the relationship is going. Good lord. If it is not easy at the beginning, how is it ever going to be easy? Because marriage can be difficult at times, you know, But I just. And I did the same thing with my, you know, my husband, that Dr. Jekyll thing. I dated him. It was only two weeks. And for two weeks I was like, okay, I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop. You cannot be this good. You cannot be this easy. You cannot make me feel so comfort comfortable in two weeks. But by the end of two weeks, I was like, okay, I'm marrying this guy. And I ended up proposing to him. And I had no interest in getting married. I mean, my, I had just gotten out of a very, very long term relationship and I, I was actually really kind of upset that I, I didn't want, I wanted him to be the. Whichever one. Dr. Jekyll, mister. Mr. I don't know, whoever the bad one is. I wanted that because I thought I'd been in a relationship for six years. I really just kind of want to date other people. And then he came into the, you know, picture and it was too fast. But the more I spent time with him, the more I was like, this is so easy. This is what a relationship is supposed to feel like. I feel like I'm dating a grownup, you know?

B (40:40)

Yeah, exactly. Like somebody who's transparent. And I always, I was like, I trusted him before I loved him. And I think that was very, very different than these other guys that I was immediately like, oh my gosh, I'm in love with this guy. Did I trust him? Hell no. But, yeah. But we got engaged by like June, July of 2018.

A (41:04)

And you met when?

B (41:05)

So we re met in July 2018. And then it was like June, July 2019 that we were engaged.

A (41:12)

Okay, so you had about a one year rule too.

B (41:14)

We did, yeah. We didn't have our first date until September. So actually it was technically, yeah, under.

A (41:18)

But, you know, I have a daughter who's 20, she's now 27. I think that, you know, some of the advice that I would give her, she's just like, oh my God, Mom. Really? Because she would think, oh, well, that means she's really conservative. And I wasn't conservative at all. It was just. That was really important to me. And she is now in a relationship with just a good easy guy. And I think she finally gets it that, you know, this drama that. And especially for the ADHD brain. Yeah, it is attractive because it's so exciting and then it's not, and then it's so exciting, you know, so it's we, we love that. And we can think and we can problem solve and we can do all these things that we do so well, but it is exhausting. You know, it's just so much better when it's easy.

B (42:08)

And I think I was exhausted at that point, which is why easy finally started to feel good. You know, I kind of like, almost like I think about when I was, you know, when I would tell you I would go for a 10 mile run and then I'd be able to settle. It was like I'd gone for two decade run of dating men and then finally I was like, I'm tired of this chase, you know, and it was my grandma, it was. Was she 100 at that point? I think she was 100 when she said, oh, do you think this is the guy? And I'm like, I don't know. And she goes, well, you should know by now. She said, what if he left you? What if he left you? And I said, well, maybe he should. And then I would know because anybody who left me then I was in.

A (42:51)

Oh, gosh, yes. It's that thrill of the chase. I am still not clear on. You talk about longing, but then you also talk about limerence. And what, like, when does longing. I'm assuming longing is before limerence.

B (43:09)

Yeah, I mean, I see longing as like the bigger umbrella. Right. And then limerence is one type of longing. I feel like grief is another kind. I mean, you can call it, you can put it, draw it however you want, but for me, longing is the bigger picture. Limerence is the psychological term that people could, you know, can glom onto and be like, that's specifically me. Right. So before I knew the term limerence, I was just describing myself as having, you know, intense romantic longing for unrequited love. Yeah. So that's how I would describe longing as like the bigger.

A (43:46)

Okay. Because you can have longing for all different kinds of things and people and, you know, intimate or not longing for a new house.

B (43:54)

Right. Whatever it might be. Real estate longing is a big, major thing. There should be a limerence with, I think people I've talked to with people and like, wow, that limerence sounds like my mom, like being obsessed with Zillow.

A (44:07)

On your, your TED Talk, which is Excellent. By the way, weren't you talking about how they did a study and people would rather have. They'd rather be on Zillow than have sex or what?

B (44:16)

What was it exactly? I think it was a California real estate survey, and they said that people would rather be surfing Zillow than have sex. Because you get that, I guess, that more of a. That high. Right.

A (44:27)

It's that dopamine spike.

B (44:29)

Exactly.

A (44:30)

And ultimately, you know, we're dopamine seekers, and that's what we're looking for. And when things feel like they might be boring or they've been done before, I always think of it like there's no story. So, I mean, you have this incredible story that came out of the, you know, choices you made in these experiences. So to me, if there's a good story and, you know, you learned something and you got through it and you're on the other side and you now have a beautiful daughter.

B (45:00)

Right? Right. Yep. She's five now.

A (45:03)

Yeah. You have a beautiful daughter. That's come of it. How can any of that have been a mistake or a failure or any of it? Right. And now you can tell women and men who are struggling with the same thing how to maybe get through it in a better way, an easier way for them, maybe faster than you did.

B (45:27)

Yeah. And actually, I. Speaking of the stories, I felt like those guys became kind of creative muses for me. So it became this thing where I felt like, well, who would I be if I wasn't chasing? I wouldn't be able to create, you know? And I feel like a lot. You see, the best, like, music and poetry and literature, you know, is based on these people who are in the throes of potentially limerence or just intense romantic longing. So. Oh, my gosh. I would lose my creativity if I'm in this boring relationship. Right. I feel like there was some of that. And I would, like, try to write a poem about some of these guys where I'd have a hookup with some guy I met. X, Y, Z. And I remember mine about mom being like, well, was it worth it? And I was like, well, I wrote a poem, and that made it feel like I had generated at least something out of this, even if I felt like trash.

A (46:16)

Oh, wow. So it's almost like those experiences brought up the emotion that then allowed you to create art from it.

B (46:25)

Yes.

A (46:26)

Wow. You know, the more I'm hearing you talk about this, it was all about the intensity. Almost being addicted to that intensity, to really being able to feel.

B (46:40)

Yes. Yes. Even, like oh, there's so many songs that talk about that, too. Like the one about, like, they all do, right?

A (46:48)

I mean, it's. That's what music is about. Unrequited love.

B (46:53)

You just want to. When you bleed, just to know you're alive. There's a line like that from. I can't remember what it songs, early 2000s, but that kind of idea. Yeah. Like, I wanted to feel the intensity, even if it really hurts so bad. It kind of goes back to my mom being like, every day has to be a carnival for you. I want to feel something. Yeah.

A (47:11)

The first thing I thought of is, you know, when people cut, you're like, why are you doing that? Well, because they want to feel. They're numbed out. And so it's almost like that was your version of being able to feel.

B (47:26)

Yeah, but the feeling was in my head.

A (47:28)

Right, right, exactly. Is there anything else more that you want to say?

B (47:32)

Just know that I think listeners know that. Yeah. For a lot of people, they even refer to it as their drug of choice.

A (47:39)

But that's exactly what it is, though, right? It was your way to get dopamine.

B (47:44)

I think once somebody has, like, had enough of it, there are ways to untangle yourself from it and to change. Change the patterns if. When you're ready.

A (47:53)

So can you talk a little bit about that?

B (47:55)

For me, I think it was, like I said, like, looking back at the patterns, ultimately, it boiled down to, like I said earlier, like, realizing that I was worthy of receiving love, not just chasing after it, and that I didn't have to prove myself to win it. One of the things, the simplest thing I was. I talk a lot about is that in my journal, my therapist started having me write this little simple mantra that was like, I am ready for and worthy of a deeply loving and intimate relationship. You know, I don't think I really believed it at the time, but the more you write something down, I think the more you do start believe it. Even saying it out loud when I would go to bed at night, I think that was really helpful and just paying attention to the music and the movies I was watching and not allowing myself to, like, sink into the throes of, like, some, you know, deeply sad romantic comedy or music that threw me back into thinking about somebody.

A (48:53)

So you would romanticize all of this, and you had to start editing where you were getting this information and feedback from so that. Because it would cause you to go down that path, because what you wanted, that feeling that that particular actress had and that drama and kind of Like, I wanted to.

B (49:16)

I wanted that to be my story, maybe. I mean. And the other part that I'm not going to go into because it's too long is that I did, like, I had one incident with some guy I met on an airplane of, you know, we were both going different directions, sat with him on the airplane. I thought, oh, my gosh, this is the guy. How to hook up? And that night, you know, get off the airplane, re. Meet again. And then I ended up chasing after him. We ended up having a meeting up again, like, and then. But I ended up doing something like flying to meet him in Detroit in hopes that he would show up. When he said maybe he might, maybe he might. He was an ER doctor. Maybe I can get off. Never did. And it was like, I had to hit that rock bottom. You don't always have to hit rock bottom. But I hurt so badly by doing that to myself, by putting myself in a situation where somebody really didn't show up, that I was like, I can't do this to myself anymore.

A (50:12)

So do you think that because you got. You said you got diagnosed at 36 with ADHD and by 41 you were married.

B (50:22)

Yes.

A (50:23)

Okay. So do you think that getting diagnosed helped you in that transition to finally start to understand how your brain works and what's important to you?

B (50:33)

And I think it helped me start putting the pieces together. So understanding getting diagnosed did help me understand myself better, also give myself a little grace. I know you talk with a lot of your speakers about, like, what. What their superpower was with adhd, you know, so, you know, giving myself grace for understanding perhaps why I was always late or, you know, it's still a big problem for me, but also realizing that I was able to think metaphorically in so many different situations, to put all these connections together because of my adhd, it just took adding some stones, stepping stones through my garden, so to speak, to help other people understand my thoughts.

A (51:16)

Sometimes, you know, with adhd, we talk about procrastination, productivity. And I always say that I don't believe ADHD is about any of that. I really believe that ADHD is an identity challenge, like, who am I really and what do I value? What is important to me? And when we're talking about relationships, when we can figure out all of that as far as who am I and what am I about and what am I meant to do? Then our life gets so much clearer, career wise, but it also really impacts relationships because so much of ADHD is about environment. Right. Who are you around? Whether we're talking about work or whether we're talking about friendships or whether we're talking about an intimate partner. And so when we can figure out what our environment looks like because it mirrors our values, then we know, okay, this is the kind of person that I need in my life. And I can't help thinking through all of that when I'm hearing your story. And that because of the ADHD brain, we can be on these wild goose chases because we're dopamine seeking and looking for dopamine, but we're losing the plot because is that really who we are? Is that really what we value? Is that kind of person really the kind of person we want in our life every single day? And if we don't know who we are exactly, and we don't know what we value, then it's really hard to know who we are. And if we don't know who we are, then how are we supposed to know who should be in our life and who shouldn't? That was a really long winded, but does that resonate with you at all?

B (53:05)

Yeah. Really? Yeah, definitely. Especially, yeah. Wild goose chase. That's definitely. I feel like that trip to Detroit was definitely the wildest goose chase, but I feel like, well, Dave is. He's very grounded. He still deals with my scatteredness and my, you know, if you looked at my desk right now, you'd be like, oh, my gosh, how do you get anything done? But I think. And he. He's also kind of ocd. So we've got these very different, you know, but different approaches to life. But in some ways, we balance each other out, even though we drive each other a little crazy sometimes. Those other. Those two things really didn't even pop out for us early on while we were dating because I think we are both in a good place in our lives at that point. So actually, he asked me that yesterday. How did we not see each other's craziness at the time? Do you think we would have kept dating? I don't want to say meant to be, but it was the right timing for us. And then we were in a mature enough to be able to sort out our craziness and balance each other out.

A (54:09)

And it sounds like it really doesn't matter because you both really love and respect each other for who you are. And so, yeah, sometimes there's some horns and there's some things that don't work out, but it never sabotages the relationship. Like there's never this blow up and, oh, well, if you don't fix this, you know, I'm leaving. Like there's just trust that you'll figure it out.

B (54:34)

Exactly. Yeah. That I think that we are both rooted in the same values definitely helped. And that we wanted to, we wanted to make things work. And we have our blow ups for sure, but we always come back to trying to understand the other person's perspective.

A (54:53)

Well, I love this conversation. So Amanda, what is your number one ADHD workaround?

B (55:01)

I thought about this. I was prepared, but I made a list. But I, I suppose I think still exercise is still something for me that's pretty essential to like work things out. I even, I even think better. I would like take voice memos as I was running, hiking, whatever it might be, swimming. Sometimes I even had a pad of paper at the end of the lane because things would come to me, you know, from swimming. And I saw somebody actually had created that for adhd, like for swimmers who got ideas. It was like a waterproof paper. You could write your ideas down. But I think yeah, A, the exercise helps me actually think through things in ways that I can't when I'm sitting still. It also just helps ground me and you know, knock out the cobwebs or the anxiety or whatever it is. So those are that piece and then probably writing things down. I make lists all the time and then I try to compile all my lists. These are all paperless. I don't know that it's. That's the way that I think. But get it out of my head, write it down and then I can redo my list, redo it again, check the box, redo it. So those things, have you ever thought.

A (56:15)

About putting it all on one list?

B (56:18)

I do and then I make more lists. So yes, this is, I could probably use some help in organizing, having a better organizing system for sure.

A (56:28)

Although a neurotypical would look at that and say, oh my God, what a disaster. Like all these scraps of paper and blah, blah, blah. But truly, if that is a system that works for you, just refine it, right? However it works for you better. I saw someone non ADHD and she was teaching productivity and she was talking about post it notes. And I am a huge post it note queen. And her thing was okay, so for the things that you've got to do today, but they're little like 2 minute, 5 minute, 10 minute, put them all on one post it note. Whenever you have the thought, put it on the post it note. The thing you don't want to do is write it on all different post it notes. And I look down at my desk and I'm like, oh, crap. Because, yeah, that's what I do. But you know what? When I have it on all different post it notes, then when I'm done, it feels so good to fold it in half and stick it in the pile. Fold it in half and stick it in the pile.

B (57:25)

Right, right.

A (57:27)

On one post it note. It just wouldn't be as much fanfare.

B (57:30)

So, yeah, And I think writing it down, now that I think about it, you know, even just that, that mantra that I had of I am ready for and worthy of just writing it over and over. Also, not that I was thinking of it as an ADHD workaround at the time, but it did help. Help remind my brain that I was worthy of something more than I was chasing. Yeah.

A (57:52)

And I honestly think most of the time we have to say it and write it before we believe it. Like, it starts somewhere. Right. The way we change our thoughts is we just start saying it and all of a sudden you're going to start believing it. So it does work. I completely agree with that. So, Amanda, are you working on something that you want to tell us about? Or conversely, where can people find you if they want to know more about you?

B (58:17)

Yes, thank you for asking. So, yes, I have a book. This is a sales copy that I have right now. That's why it's kind of shiny. But when longing becomes your lover. Breaking from infatuation, rejection, and perfectionism to find authentic love. A true story of overcoming limerence. And it comes out February 10th. It's available for pre orders now anywhere you can buy books online. And you can find me. My website is amandajane jmcracken.com that's also my Instagram handle, Amanda J. McCracken. And then my podcast is the Longing Lab, where I talk to people about all different angles of longing. And that's also my TikTok handle that I got on in the last couple months, the Longing Lab.

A (59:08)

I did not know that you were coming out with the book. How was it? Is this your first book?

B (59:13)

It is my first book, yes.

A (59:15)

How was it writing it?

B (59:16)

Oh, gosh. Like, it's amazing that it is done, like, from an ADHD standpoint, like pulling all of these pieces together. It's amazing that it's done. It was very difficult, but it was. But also at the same time, it's like it was definitely a labor of love and I feel like it will help people out there. It's a mixture of my personal story, other people's personal stories, a ton of research. I've got like 185 endnotes. People can go down their own rabbit holes there to further hopefully understand themselves or figure out something.

A (59:51)

No, I'm really looking forward to reading it. So Amanda, thank you so much for spending time with us here today. I really appreciate it.

B (60:00)

Thank you.

A (60:02)

So that's what I have for you for this week. If you like this episode with Amanda, let us know by leaving a review. Our goal is to change the conversation around adhd, helping as many women as we possibly can learn how their ADHD brains work so that they too may discover their amazing strengths. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you here next week. You've been listening to the ADHD for Smartass Women podcast. I'm your host, Tracy Otsuka. Join us at ADHD for smartwomen.com where you can find more information on my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women and My patented you'd ADHD Brain is a okay system to help you get unstuck and fall in love with your brilliant brain. ADHD is not the problem. The way we've been told to manage it is. If you're tired of feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or like you're not living up to your potential, I want to help. My youy ADHD Brain is a OK is a step by step patented program that actually works for ADHD brains like ours. No more forcing yourself into ordinary brain systems that just don't fit. If you're ready to thrive, find the link in the first line of this episode's description. Your brain is brilliant. Let me prove it to you.