B (4:37)

You did. Thank you so much. And I'm extra excited that you love birds. So hopefully we'll touch on that a little bit this morning, too.

A (4:44)

Yeah. You know, Stephanie, I am. I live in the country right now on six and a half acres, and I've created what I call my little bird sanctuary. So regular birds. But the bird that I love among more than all birds is the hummingbird. We have so many hummingbirds. And, you know, I have all these little hummingbird feeders and I talk about this all the time. I have this little app, it's called Bird Buddy. So there's actual cameras in, like, my little bird houses. And so I get little messages that say, oh, you know, Anna, hummingbird, you know, this kind of specific hummingbird came and visited you. And there's like a little video. It is so fun.

B (5:22)

That's great. I need to get one of those.

A (5:25)

I love it. And, you know, so we are, after 25 years, we're going to be. Well, we have sold our home and we're going to be moving to San Francisco. And we're thinking, I want to try a high rise. I've never done that, but it means I can't have birds and I don't know if I can make it. So I'm going to have to try and see. But I may be back in the country. I'm not sure. So, Stephanie, I always like to talk to our guests first about their ADHD story because it allows our listeners to then connect with. So would you mind talking to us about your ADHD diagnoses first? What were the circumstances around it?

B (6:06)

Yeah, no. And also, thank you so much for having me. I'm a listener of this podcast, so I'm so grateful that you are including me in this space and that you're creating this space for other women like us who are navigating this. So my, my ADHD diagnosis came later than I expected. It. It actually came in my early 30s, but. And which I'm learning among the people who are in my community, is happening more frequently. A lot of, a lot of women, including myself, either had been undiagnosed or had been compensating with our symptoms for a really long time. And I was one of those people. And when I was in law school, that was sort of the first time I had a really thorough conversation with a wonderful therapist who was helping me sort of explore what symptoms I was experiencing, which really had to do with inattentiveness, really struggling with task initiation. And law school was sort of the first time I encountered and knew that I was eligible for accommodations in law school. And although that was helpful, I noticed that I was really struggling from the transition from law school to the workplace. That was very different for me where there was a lot of structure and then all of a sudden there was no structure and a lot of variability. And I learned that I think I needed to get some clarity as to where. What was I experiencing? Increased anxiety. I knew I had been diagnosed with an auditory processing disorder in my, in my childhood. And I know that, you know, brains change over time, and I thought, oh, this may could be a different manifestation of that. But I decided to take the plunge to do a formal evaluation and got diagnosed pretty quickly with adhd. And that was really the eye opener for me that, okay, this is something that I maybe didn't have access to in a time where I could have had access to. And it's been a really wonderful learning journey for me to get support, tailored support that allows me to do my work and live my life as authentically as possible. And I really credit my therapist, my prescriber, who I work with, and the network of providers that I've had access to to really guide me. And it's a never ending journey, but one that I'm grateful started with the, with the initial diagnosis.

A (8:24)

So were you diagnosed in law school or after law school, once you got into the workforce?

B (8:30)

Good question. I was diagnosed formally after law school, but I had already known as a child that I had a variety of learning disabilities. I knew that I had an auditory processing disorder, which meant I really struggled to absorb verbal instruction. I struggled to read a lot. I had dyslexia as a kid, was diagnosed earlier on, but I think the language with of ADHD was not really discussed until I was older. And then that coupled with this diagnosis was like, oh, there are these pieces that are being put in this puzzle. This makes a whole lot more sense than I thought originally.

A (9:08)

Did you find that because you had already been diagnosed with auditory processing disorder and dyslexia? Everything, like all the, you know, the clinicians, therapists, specialists, you yourself, you kind of saw everything through that lens and never considered that ADHD might also be.

B (9:26)

In the picture 100%. I think in. Especially as a kid in grade school, during the. In my generation, it was very common for young boys to be. To be diagnosed with adhd. But if you had, you know, a young girl like me who was, you know, pretty good student, a good student in class, but really struggled with homework, remembering things that didn't really flag a lot of my teachers to say, oh, what additional support does she need beyond recognizing her B's and D's and being able to write an M versus an N, you know, that really wasn't part of the conversation. And I think the older I got and the more nationally the conversation started upticking around ADHD for young adults and professional people. I think that was when I sort of had the courage to take the plunge and gained access to care. I didn't have access to the care for a long time. Um, so that was a big component of it as well.

A (10:22)

Were you diagnosed with inattentive type or combined type?

B (10:25)

Combined.

A (10:26)

Okay. And so what were you like as a child? Sounds like you got pretty good grades. Were you more inattentive, or were you like me, where the teacher would come by your desk. You know, everybody would have to clean their desk. And my desk was such a mess inside. We had those desks that you opened up. I don't know if they still have those. And my desk was such a mess, she literally took all the stuff and threw it on the floor. And so I had to start from ground zero.

B (10:52)

I was a really shy child, which people, knowing me now, would not think to be the case, because, as my husband says, I could talk to a wall and be best friends with a wall. So for people who've known me when I was little, I didn't speak to anybody. I was actually a really late speaker. I actually didn't speak until I was, you know, comfortably maybe one and a half, two, really just wasn't articulating any words at all. So there was a concern early on that I would have some sort of disability with regard to speech because I just wasn't speaking. But then I came out and, you know, started speaking in full sentences, much to my parents surprise. But in school, what was really challenging was mostly keeping up with reading assignments and tasks. I remember really vividly I was in grade school and I was, you know, the teacher writes on the board. You know, when you go home, here's what you're supposed to do. And I'm, you know, thinking about it like, yes, I know this assignment. I'm writing it down. And I go home and I'm eating my spaghetti and meatballs, and my dad's like, what's your homework assignment? And I look in my planner and I was like, wait, I could have swore I wrote this down. And I just did not. I totally thought I did. And I looked down and I hadn't. And that was really the initial signs of forgetfulness, of not remembering what I heard, feeling like I had a mastery of things that I was learning when I was learning them. But as soon as you took me out of the environment, I completely forgot everything. And that that led initial struggle in school. And then I think it wasn't until high school where I sort of hit the ground running in subjects that I really liked, subjects that really spoke to me. And I started to find strategies that worked for me as someone who learned all types of material differently than my peers. Trying to find things that worked for me, coupled with creating the structure that I wasn't getting, that I think helped me excel much more in high school and college.

A (12:51)

So I'm curious how you were socially. You were really shy. Did you have a best friend or some good friends, or were you pretty solitary?

B (13:00)

I think it depends on the year I had growing up. I'm still close with my closest friend. We've been friends for 30 something years. We met at 2 years old. She's my closest friend to this day. But I had sort of a core group of friends, but at different periods of my life. I think my. My closest friend growing up, my childhood friend, she was sort of my ride or die. And her family became, you know, and is still my chosen family to this day. But I wouldn't say I had a sort of a gaggle of people who I grew up with consistently it was. I moved around a lot. So people were, you know, sort of coming and going from my life. And no matter where I was, I found people who I really connected with, whether it be through topics and hobbies that I was really interested in. You know, so if connections were there, but not as consistent as, you know, someone who's growing up with a group of friends of five and they know each other their whole lives, it was sort of this one solid friend and then people who I met along the way until college. College was really that. That point where I was really able to make some really strong connections with people and allowed me to sort of come out of my shell as a shyer person and find lasting friendships that are still present to this day.

A (14:15)

That's hilarious because you don't seem shy to me.

B (14:18)

That's what everybody says. That's what everybody says.

A (14:23)

Are you an introvert or an extrovert? Where do you get your energy?

B (14:26)

Capital E, Extrovert. I am Definitely an ENFJ 100%. I love to spend time with people. I gain a lot of my energy spending time with people. That's how I refill my cup. The one thing I love about my. My marriage is that my. My husband is the opposite. He's an introvert, prefers to spend time by himself. And he's really good at reminding me that yeah, there is. There is a component that it, you know, is needed to be social with people. But also it's important to spend time doing things that are solitary and are reflective and restorative and. And he's really wonderful at self initiating that. But he's. He reminds me to, to take that time because that's also important.

A (15:08)

So enfp. And you're an enfj. Perceiving or judging, I always mix them up. But I know what we're talking about is you like things that are more planned and scheduled and organized. You want to know what to expect versus I am much more spontaneous as a p. Right. Where I can do things, you know, you know, at the drop of a hat and change on a dime. My son was just telling me actually this morning as I was working out that he wants to go to medical school and that doctors tend to be more judging versus perceiving and they believe that is why they can handle, like, I could never be a doctor. I can barely walk, you know, into an emergency room. I've got my hand over my face like when the kids were little. Cause I'm so terrified about what I'm going to see. But I Think it's the emotional kind of swings versus doctors tend to be more consistent. And so he was saying that's why they can see the gore and they're less impacted emotionally by, you know, traumatizing stuff like that. So I find that really interesting.

B (16:13)

And we.

A (16:14)

Yeah, I was just talking about it this morning. I love that question for you that I have is so all of a sudden, in high school, you started really figuring it out. I spectacle, you started to figure out how your brain learns, and it might have been different than how you were taught in school. You're supposed to learn, but then. So you do well in high school, you do great in college. What happened in law school? Was it just as easy for you or was it like, oh, my gosh, this is not what I expected?

B (16:44)

Definitely not easy for me. 100% not in that camp. I think I was in the minority of people who really enjoyed law school. I am a total legal policy nerd. I went in knowing that I would love the subject matter. So I think that that was important. I knew. And I took time and. Yeah, and I took time. I took five years between. I graduated from college and law school, which, what, you know, was helpful for me to clarify that this was the path I wanted to take. But, you know, when you go in your first semester, first week, first day, you're like, I don't know if I can do this. I knew I struggled to learn in. In a traditional way. And, and the law school education system is quite traditional, especially in your first year. You know what you're taking. There's no option. You, you're taking these courses. Everybody's doing the same thing. There's not a lot of room for wiggling or creativity. And, you know, it's. I. I do my. I did my college, you know, my college studies and colors and, you know, charts. And I was like, can I apply this to text? That's a bulleted list and a 1, 2, 3 element style. And so I really initially struggled to be like, how am I going to fit my colorful learning style, a graphic learning style, into this academic environment? And throughout law school, I learned that there was a way that I could do that. There were ways that I figured out to incorporate my love of sort of kinesthetic learning, of interacting with material beyond the page, and found a way where I was able to get creative with how it was approaching this really sometimes very difficult and intricate material, whether it was tax law or wills or civil procedure, finding a way to adapt each subject in a graphic and interesting way that Suited my brain so that I could master the material. And I think that's when I really learned that there was something that I had uncovered that was new to me.

A (18:55)

I think a lot of it, too, was the Socratic method, right? Where I always felt like they were hiding the ball. Just give me the format, the structure, the overview, and then I'm great. But this, you know, figure out, like, it's almost like you have to. They would just ask you the questions, right? And that's how you're supposed to figure it out. Was, first of all, emotionally dysregulating. And, you know, my daughter's in her last semester of law school. She's starting it, and it's still the same thing where, you know, the students walk into class and it's like, oh, my God. I don't know if I'm, you know, if I'm prepared or maybe I'm not prepared. And they're just panicked that they're gonna get called on.

B (19:33)

Yes, they still do that. They do that experience is. I don't know. I watched the movie called the Paper Chase, which was an old movie that talks about, you know, Robert Redford, I think. So that was one of the movies my dad showed me when he was really trying to convince me not to go to law school. He was like, are you sure this is what you want? And I, you know, look, I watched the movie and I was like, kinda, yeah, this sounds kind of interesting and cool, but the first time being called on is kind of exactly like that. You do what you can to prepare. But I think for me, as a neurodiverse person, being called on and being asked to stand up and think on my feet really quickly, that my first time was horrible. And, you know, you. You go through it and then you get better because you get called on in different classes. You get an understanding, listening to other people, what the professor expects. So then you get more prepared the next time. But that first time is. It's horrible. And I still remember, like, maybe what case it was. I think I'd have to look it up, but I know what subject it was in.

A (20:44)

I think you realize that, okay, I didn't die. I'm not gonna die. And then as you proceed, you get to the point where, like, who cares? Whatever, you know, everybody feels the same way, Right?

B (20:54)

Exactly. Yeah.

A (20:56)

Would you say that? Because I'm trying to figure out, like, the through line here in terms of. I always feel like our best purposes give meaning to our past. And so I guess my question is, was there some Part of law school that was just really different and difficult for. Not different. That was really difficult for you. And so that's why you are now doing what you're doing.

B (21:20)

Yes.

A (21:20)

Because you were able to figure it out for yourself. Did you feel like I. Before you were diagnosed with adhd, did you feel like, I am just not as smart as these other students? Did you ever feel that?

B (21:35)

110%. From the moment I walked in the door, I felt like, I am not cut out to be here. I can't believe I got accepted. There is no way that I'm going to be able to do this. And everybody. When you're in a classroom with people and you're hearing people recite these beautiful case briefs and you're like, I have no idea what I'm doing. That was present at least through the first year. And the thing that I thought was the hardest for me one was, how do I absorb this material that's given to me in a very prescribed format. Right. It's not like in grade school or in college where your professor might present the material in a couple of different ways. They might say, well, here's one way to look at it, and here's another way to look at it in law school. It's, here's the way it's looked at one way. And you are expected to absorb that. Retain multiple examples of how that framework applies, how different cases are different, and how the court has applied this concept in different ways and throughout time. And then you are also supposed to recognize and distinguish similar facts on an exam and say, oh, I recognize this matches this concept, and I know these two cases that are maybe similar. In this case, that's different. How do I take this hypothetical question and apply all of those things to this one framework? And so it was a lot of these building blocks, but initially that challenge was, how do I take something that has been just prescribed and how do I memorize this? How do I. I can't refer back. You know, most of the exams, almost all were closed book, which is uncommon. A lot of most law schools do either an open book or you can have sort of a study guide to bring in the exam with you. But mine were closed book. So memorization was a big challenge that I did not. I mostly wrote papers in college, you know, where you have your sources with you. You are able to do that prep work ahead of time. You're not being quizzed on that. So that was a big learning curve of memorizing material.

A (24:02)

Let's pause here. Have you spent Your whole life being told your way is the wrong way. If you try to use systems designed for a neurotypical brain, of course you'll feel like you're failing. But here's the truth. You were never the problem. You just have a different brain, which means you need different systems. That is exactly why I created the A OK Academy. It's my six step patented framework designed to help you reconnect with your intuition and build systems based on your unique strengths. Let me help you reconnect with your intuition, trust yourself again, and build a life that actually works for you. You've had the answers all along. I'll help you see them. Look, it's time to stop second guessing and start trusting yourself again. Find the link in the show notes to sign up or book a free discovery call. Now let's get back to it. You know, you're so right. I think that a couple things, speaking on your feet, that is what's so hard. And it's this. Sometimes I'm so good at it, right? And other times so not good at it. And then you put. But on top of that, the time pressure and the discomfort of being called on right and getting it wrong. And so you're thinking about all those things while you're also trying to speak, which I found really difficult. And then what I realized today is I can't memorize if I don't understand. I am never going to be able to recite anything. I'm never gonna be able to get the correct answer. I need to understand. And I think that's where all highlighting and red notes in the margin and tabs on the book and then creating an outline. And then I had three by five cards from that outline. And then my roommate, she would take my. She had already been a partner at a firm. I'm thinking of a. I went to Georgetown for a master's in law in securities regulation after law school. And she was my roommate and she was very smart and she was a litigator, so she was used to speaking on her feet. But I swear to you, she would take my notes the night before or the day before the exam. And she would always. I'm the one who had spent weeks creating all this. She would always do better than I did. And so the thought was always, well, I'm just not as smart 100%.

B (26:47)

I love the way that you describe too the kind of core tenets of how most students study in law school, which really revolve around three things. One is like your class notes. The second is Your outline, which is memorializing all the material, the concepts that you're learning, and then some memorization device, which. The thing that you reference is a flashcard. And I think what I realized really early on in my law school career was some of those things did not or would not work for me. And so I had to come up with, what's Steph's version of good class notes? What's Steph's version of an outline? And how can I memorize material? That's. Sometimes flashcards were really helpful in some subjects, but some of them, they were not helpful at all. And I had to figure out a way to memorize. And I remember, you know, when you're sitting in your. Your classroom, there's a lot of people. You can kind of see people's computers. And there were a couple of classes. I remember where my. My. My cohort will look at my computer, and they're like, what is that? And it'd be my, like, crazy wacky outline. It would look nothing like anybody else's. It would have, you know, I would make PowerPoint presentations with charts and arrows and, you know, different things that highlighted a, you know, a real estate transaction. And it, you know, my neighbor had a bulleted list, and I. That just wouldn't work for me, so I had to create my own. And, you know, I can't. I can't say who did better, me or the other person, but I know that that got me a passing grade. And when that was getting that feedback, it was like, okay, how can I build on this system? And I think that's where kind of the idea came from of we are not encouraged automatically to get the freedom to develop systems that work for us. And not only is that invaluable in law school, that's even more invaluable in practice when you're working to find systems that work for you to do your job the best you can.

A (28:46)

Absolutely. You know, you're talking about your computer and how you created your own outlines and methods of study. And I didn't realize that then, but I realize it today, so I see why. My systems started with tons and tons of words, and then by the end, it was nominal amounts of words. And today, what I know about my brain is that if you give me too many words, they get lost on a page. And so a couple of years ago, I started doing visual facilitation. I learned how to draw, and it's interesting to me how I can have an outline and if there's some sort of image on There I see the image, and right away I know what I'm supposed to say versus if I write it out with words, I get stuck in the words. It's just crazy. You know, how our brains can work 100%.

B (29:49)

And one example that I think about when I think about a visual representation and I'm gonna get nerdy for two seconds is in. In criminal law, right, we have the kind of a spectrum of. Or how they teach it in law school. You have sort of attempt, right? Which is wanting to. You're thinking about doing something, and there's different steps to decide whether you've crossed that threshold. And then there are, like, inchoate crimes, which is sort of this in the middle thing where you have. You've crossed that threshold into attempt, and there's something in the middle, and then there's the completion of the crime. In my mind, that looks like a thread, a timeline, where you are seeing here is maybe the life cycle of how a crime could evolve. And I remember a professor of mine talked about the wheel of conspiracy. When you're charging someone with conspiracy and there's maybe there's multiple people involved, I can't unsee that image of. When I think about conspiracy, I think of a wheel. Who's the person in the center? What are. Are they touching? Are they a spoke on the wheel? Are they outside the wheel? Right? You're talking about the same concepts, but you're visualizing them in a different way. And if I think that's this, I think for me, that was the secret sauce. If I was able to figure out a way to describe these concepts in ways that, and for me, were playful. It was playfulness and curiosity. And almost like a childlike curiosity was the way that I learned the best. Simplifying these really complex things into basic, you know, basic graphics, like wheels and lines and squiggles and triangles and red versus blue versus yellow, right? That. That was the thing that helped me the most.

A (31:33)

I can almost see, like, I'll do, like, little flowcharts. And for example, when my book came out and I was on a lot of podcasts initially, I was so panicked about it. What if I forget what I know? Because that happens regularly. So I created basically a flowchart of the things that I always want to make sure that I hit. And even today, two years later, I literally can see where those pieces are in my brain on that chart that I created. And so every single time a podcast, I would be a guest on a podcast, and let's say the podcast was on Divorce or the podcast was on struggles with weight or addiction. I would create a new chart, and then I would laminate it. And so now I can be on any podcast. I just need to pull out my chart. I see where the things are. It's the only way I can do it. If I hadn't done that, I would have forgotten everything that I learned.

B (32:40)

That's great. I love a system that's reusable, too. I used to do that as laminate things that I have my dry erase. I could write things. I even went so far, as I remember, we were. We were living in Florida for law school, but we're both from. From the Northeast, and we had to. It was during finals, and I was super stressed, but we had to go on a trip. I was like, how am I gonna study this material? I have a final in, like, three days. We have to do this trip. What am I gonna do? I can't read in the car. I will get sick, and it will be a disaster. And my husband was like, well, why don't you just record yourself reading your outline? And I was like, why would I do that? That's dumb. And then he goes, well, okay, just try it. Try, you know, 30 minutes. Just try recording one section. And I pulled out my phone, pulled out my voice memo, and I recorded myself reading my outline. And so then I'm in the car, I'm driving, I mean, somewhere in Connecticut, and instead of, you know, listening to music, I'm listening to myself reading my outline. And I totally underestimated how helpful that was, because the more you're hearing it and you're hearing yourself explain a concept you will recognize where you don't understand what you don't understand, and you'll say, huh, I just said this, but I have no idea what. What this means. I wrote this down, and it's not making sense to me. That, then, is another learning form where you're hearing it auditorily, but then you're also testing what you wrote. Does what you wrote make sense to you? And so that was a strategy I used pretty consistently, even through bar prep. Was reading my outlines and notes to myself and, you know, carrying them in my pocket and going for a walk around the block and doing track one and doing it in small intervals, and that was really helpful.

A (34:34)

Not sitting down. Right. Actually being able to move. Yeah.

B (34:38)

Yeah.

A (34:39)

What's interesting to me, though, is that you have an auditory processing challenge, but that system actually worked for you.

B (34:48)

And that surprised me more than anything. And I think the reason being is I Think. I struggle when I'm given direction. I'm struggled. I struggle when I'm hearing steps that I need to perform auditorily. Like, if you told me how to get from here to the nearest target and just told me how to get there, I would not remember what you said. However, the thing I do remember, and I think the thing I love about my brain, is I love that I can remember stories really well. And so when I'm listening to myself read off these concepts and these cases, to me they're stories. They're stories of real people who have gone to court pursuing some sort of relief. And the court decided either yes or no or yes in some things and no to some. And that's a story. And my brain can connect with storytelling. Even if I'm hearing it auditorily, I can understand that. And when I hear it and I'm speaking it aloud to myself or I'm doing that coupled with, I'm drawing a flowchart that outlines this topic out. That is, for me, my trifecta. If I'm able to hit it at all angles, that's where I get the most retention, because the story is in my head, and I now can bring that information out when I need it. So I think connecting it to something that I'm already familiar with and is a medium that I relate to really well was really instrumental in surprising myself that an auditory thing for someone who had an auditory processing disorder could be helpful.

A (36:29)

Yeah. And there's science behind storytelling. We just remember stories. And I am exactly the way you are, as long as the story's interesting.

B (36:40)

Oh, yeah.

A (36:43)

Which I think is so important. Right. That we learn how to be storytellers. And I also believe that most people with ADHD are really good storytellers because we tend to get so excited. And so we make things more, I guess, approachable and interesting in the way that we tell stories.

B (37:04)

Yes.

A (37:04)

So my daughter, I told you that she's in her last semester of law school, and she was sitting here last night, and I told her who I was going to be interviewing, and I said, do you have a question for Stephanie? And she said, yes, I do. Okay. So she wanted some advice. She's graduating from Fordham Law in May, and she's going to be taking the New York bar exam in July. She said, I have taken exams where I do as many practice problems as possible and I don't do well. And then I've taken exams where I didn't do any practice problems and I do really, really well. Is there a method of studying, whether it's whiteboarding, outlines, flashcards, tons of practice exams where you see a through line of oh, this is what is especially effective for neurodivergent learners. So I guess we're asking about specific tools, routines, or systems that seem to work better for us than the traditional stuff we're told.

B (38:08)

Yes. I love this question. Also, congratulations on wrapping up her law school career. That's fantastic.

A (38:13)

She loves law school. I didn't love it so much. She loves it.

B (38:18)

I love that. And also, as a fellow New Yorker, shout out to New York. I love that. So I think the thing I can say on this is, especially with bar exam study, most people use a program, right? There are tons of programs out there, and those are wonderful. And those are pretty much the standard. Nowadays people purchase a Kaplan or a Barbri or any of the programs and not standard. Now I think Barbri is really good. And other programs are fantastic at laying out what your schedule looks like. And they automate it for you. They tell you what you're supposed to be doing. I think when it comes to ultimately practicing your material for the bar exam, I think maybe a couple things stand out. One is because the bar exam tests so many topics, it's testing everything, right? When we're going through our traditional bar prep, it can be incredibly overwhelming for neurodiverse brains to switch from one topic one hour and you're switching to the next topic at another hour. So my advice, especially if you're doing practice sets like a practice essay or practice multiple choice question, is to stack those materials on one subject. And here's an example of that. So if you are, if you're. Your bar plan says, this week is an evidence week. In my mind that says, okay, this study session, I'm gonna review a topic in evidence, character evidence, for example, and zone in on one topic that you are going to review. And first you review the topic, review your videos, review your master outline, review your notes, and set a time limit, right? And that is a good reminder to not get so deep in the weeds, right? Using a timekeeping method, whether it be a pomodoro method or you are setting aside just 45 minutes or an hour. Review the topic. Next. Start with a multiple choice set. I generally say at least a 20 question set because that'll give you a good feedback of sort of a good evaluating feedback of how you stand on that topic. And most bar preps will give you a question bank or your bar prep materials will give you a. A book that will have questions and paper so do a question set and then review all of your answers. Review them all. Don't focus on the outcome. Focus on what did you miss when you were answering the question? Did you not know the rule? Did you not know? Did you blindly choose an answer? Right. That feedback is vital. And then from there, do a practice essay on that topic. So you're stacking, reviewing that same topic, using your materials, testing yourself on a multiple choice format, then doing a practice essay on that same topic. So you've hit three separate levels of review and you're hitting those two things that you will be tested on. Can you answer a multiple choice question on this subject and can you write an essay clearly on this topic? So I really find that to be helpful because you're focusing on one topic, you're not switching back and forth and you're building in that practice that you're going to need for, for studying for the bar.

A (41:43)

We're also practicing something, you know, in your strategy here that I think we do well is when we go deep versus we go wide, right? It's so hard for us to get in there and start, but then once we start, our natural curiosity takes over and we want to know more, more, more.

B (42:01)

Yes. This was something I was just speaking to someone about yesterday of. You know, I'm looking at this tiny, tiny rule in business transactions and I'm like, I want to know everything. And I go sort of headfirst deep in. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I think that's actually really great because that means that you're approaching a subject that you know, someone else who's not sitting for the bar will be like, ew, why would I even read about this? And you're expressing an interest, which is great. That mindset is what's going to help you attack this material, whether you're in law school, whether you're studying for the bar. But I think what's helpful is creating boundaries. Creating boundaries around when you are engaging in this material, right? You are giving yourself a time limit to complete the task that you've assigned. And then once that time period is done, you can make the decision of, okay, I want to go back and I want to read this extra thing, or I want to really delve deep into this material. But I think creating those boundaries around the tasks ensures that you have the micro moments and sort of time blocks to complete it, while giving yourself the flexibility to dive deeper if you want. And I know for some that rigidity does not feel good, and for others it does. And I think it's gonna be sort of a try on trying on outfits, finding the best fit for you.

A (43:22)

You talked about the Pomodoro method. I'm curious if you've ever seen this or use this.

B (43:30)

Yes, I have. Yes.

A (43:32)

Wait, but no, yours is a time timer, right?

B (43:35)

Well, mine does. So you can choose the interval. So I can do 5 minutes, 10 minutes. And I like that. I can see how much time I have left because I think if I just have something that is, that just says 25, I don't see my time remaining. But I'm not looking at it on my phone or on my computer. It's something external that will alert me when time is up. So I've found that this to be really helpful.

A (44:01)

Is that actually the time timer that you're holding up?

B (44:04)

Yes, it's called time timer. Yes, yes.

A (44:06)

Okay, so that's different than what I'm talking about here because I haven't, I, I've, I haven't showed you the whole thing. So I am holding up. For those who are listening on the podcast and not on YouTube, so there's no video, I am holding up what is called the time cube. They changed it. It used to be called a date X cube. And so when I hear about the Pomodoro method, which is you work for 25 minutes, then you get a five minute break. I think, oh my gosh, what person in their right mind, because it's hard for us to start, right. Is going to stop after 25 minutes? It rarely works for the neurodivergent brain. So what I do with this is, let's say I am struggling to start, which we tend to do like, okay, I wanna do something in bar prep, right? And I don't wanna do it. And so I'm procrastinating and doing everything but that. So I strike a deal with myself. All I have to do is 25 minutes. And if I wanna stop after 25 minutes, I can stop. What I love about this though is, as you said with the time timer. Time, yeah, time timer. There is no friction because, look, I don't have to go into my computer, you know, and set anything. I don't have to go to my phone, I don't have to go find a timer somewhere. This is sitting on my desk all the time. I just flip it on its end and a timer counts down.

B (45:28)

Oh, that's cool.

A (45:29)

So when I'm sitting here procrastinating, not doing what I'm supposed to do. Okay, all you gotta do is 25 minutes. If you wanna stop after 25 minutes, you can stop. I flip this on its end and I start. And do you know, Stephanie, in seven years, I have never stopped after, like, two hours, or at least I got the thing done, because we struggle to start, but we also struggle to stop. And so I wish I had had this in law school and graduate law school and for the bar and honestly, for everything it is. And I've never used this with a client where it hasn't worked either. Crazy about it.

B (46:08)

No, it's. You're so right in. There's the struggle on both ends. It's the task initiation, but then there's the time blindness, where we don't recognize how much time has gone by. And that is a comfort for some people. It feels really wonderful, people who are creative types to really have that free rein when it comes to their time. But most of us don't have that luxury and do need some structure or are asked to have some structure. So that's why I like building in the top a couple of layers of resistance. One with the timer going off. If I'm on a computer, I can't remember the name of the. Of the app, but there is one that it will. If you're on your computer and you're working on something, the notification will cover your screen. So if you're working on something, it will say, time is up, and it will cover it. So creating an extra barrier. I've also set a timer in the other room. So if my phone is in another room, I've also said, okay, I have to leave. Yeah, I have to leave my space to go and turn off another timer. I've also done the triple installation of having a calendar block and time blocking and saying, okay, I'm gonna get a reminder that in five minutes, I have to do this other thing. Or. Or if I really can't do it, I have to make a judgment call of how to adjust and how much to adjust. Right. Cause I think that that's a reality, too. Sometimes things take longer than we anticipate, and we have to be flexible, too.

A (47:38)

So the thing about this is when the time cube is, when 25 minutes is up, it beeps, and then I can decide do I want to do it again, and I just turn it on its end. So I'm literally just, you know, unless, like, when I was writing my book, I did not want to stop, right? I wanted to keep going because I wanted to get as much done as I could. My daughter, for Christmas, she asked for something called the brick. So it's just this little tiny square. It's gray. I don't know if you've heard of it.

B (48:09)

I have one.

A (48:10)

You do? Okay. And so she sets the apps that she wants to block, and she will literally just click her phone onto the brick and it'll shut down all the apps that she does not want to be going to. Like social media and stuff like that. She told me that she just loves it. What do you think?

B (48:31)

I love it. And I think what I think it doesn't stop is the visibility of the phone, which for some is still a barrier. Right. Even if we resist, even if we restrict the access to the apps for some people, and especially people who are studying for the bar or in law school, but especially we're right in bar prep season for the February bar. And there's, you know, you're. You're in that final stretch and you kind of want to be doing anything else other than bar prepping. So the fact that the phone is there even though it's blocking things is not enough of a barrier. So I really like in conjunction with brick. I've tried testing this myself and I've. I've enjoyed it. Is using your shortcuts, if you have an iPhone, through your Siri shortcuts where you can automate your phone to change settings. So, for example, I read the book how to break up with your phone. It's like a big national bestseller. I'm forgetting the author off the top of my head, but the thing that she recommends is changing your phone to grayscale when you are in high focus bricked hours. So in addition to bricking my phone, if I'm working, I will change it to grayscale, and I can choose when I want that to happen. But there's resistance in me trying to undo that. I have to go to the app. I have to find the automation. I have to, like, find the right toggle. And that is dissuasive enough for me to, you know, not want to undo the setting, but then creating hours where if I want to check Instagram, I want to check things. I do that either when I'm home or at a very specific time of day. So I can check all the things I want to check. But sometimes the. For some people, the app blockage is not enough. They need something else. So I've been toying with and playing around with my phone settings to feel like, what's the right combination. But I love the fact that I need to touch it to a specific Device to unblock it that I love. I think that's been really helpful.

A (50:34)

I have. I had a client, she was a national news anchor, and she struggled with sleep and social media. And so she's the one who told me that what she does is she grayscales her phone after a certain time. And so I tried it, thinking, oh, what's this gonna do? And, you know, my social media, like my nemesis, is Twitter, which I refuse to call X. And it's really a depressing thing to be on right before you're going to bed. And so I tried it, and it works so much, surprisingly well, because it's so unappealing when it's all black and white and gray.

B (51:12)

Yes. I also. When I was growing up, my dad, you know, listened to public radio all the time. He just had one in the house. And so my first ever clock was a radio clock, and I still use one. I, instead of waking up to my phone, I wake up to our local radio station. And, you know, I hear the same voice every day because it's always the same time. But that's okay. I like that I can, if I choose to. I'm really wanting to stay in bed. I can listen to. Listen to what's going on, but I'm not grabbing something automatically. I keep it in another place, you know, But I have. If I. My alarm goes off or if something, you know, urgent, it's really loud, so something can break through if I'm really needed. So I feel like that's a good tool, too. If you. If the phone is really. If you're feeling like your phone is creeping into spaces where you don't want and you're wanting that restorative space. I think creating those extra boundaries can not only help, you know, your work life, but also help your personal life, too.

A (52:15)

Oh, my gosh. Once I got my phone out of the bedroom, it's just amazing how much more you sleep and how much better you sleep. And it really is not a good practice, especially for, you know, Twitter, to be on there right before you go to bed. I mean, you just feel like the whole sky's falling, right? Yeah.

B (52:32)

Yeah, that's tough.

A (52:34)

Okay. So a lot of listeners, I'm sure, might feel, well, they're listening to us and they're thinking, well, I'm just bad at school. When it's really not about ability or interest at all. It's a mismatch between how they were taught and how their brain actually learns. How do you help students identify their real learning style instead of Forcing themselves into systems that, you know, they just weren't built for them to begin with. And I think a lot of students, they don't even realize that, that they can learn just fine if they learn in a way that works for their brain 100%.

B (53:13)

And this conversation really started developing for me when I was a ta, when I'm meeting with students, when I was meeting with students in law school who were my peers or who were at a lower class than me. And it really is starts with having, having somebody who's there to ask the questions that maybe you haven't been asked, which is, how do you learn? How have you learned material in the past? We've all learned something. We've all been in learning spaces, whether we've been quote, unquote successful at them or not. We've all been in a space where we've absorbed information or have been asked to absorb. And most people, when you ask them that question initially, they'll tell you, I don't like black and white text. I don't like, I don't like watching videos. I just go it at 2x speed. Or I don't like that. You know, my textbook, you know, has really long chapters and has no examples. I don't learn without examples. Right? That when people, when I've asked that baseline question, I get a lot of information about how people learn. But that's really the only, the first step. I think the next phase is encouraging, trying something for a period of time. So if I'm working with a student, I worked with one student in law school who said, you know, I'm not into this, into this video stuff, and I don't make an outline, but I know that I kind of need one to remember what I'm learning and listening to. I said, okay, let's try a couple different things first. So the first thing I asked him to do, I remember was I said, let's start with your class notes. What are your class notes look like? And I would see an example of his class notes and they were incredibly organized. They were, you know, he had drawings and attachments. It didn't look like, you know, a class note. You would see on a Google image. If you search class notes, it look, you know, it looked very different. But he was able to tell me, I asked him, you know, can you talk to me about what this class was based on your notes? What did you learn in this class? And he looked at his notes and he was able to recite to me really clearly what he learned in that lesson. So that tells me, number one, he is able to absorb this information, but needs the resource to be able to retain it and refer back to. And maybe he didn't need an outline. That's the answer. Maybe he didn't need one. He needed to refine how he was taking notes in his classes and make that his reliable study resource. So we worked on how do we do graphic learning in class and if we want to translate that into a more colorful version, how do we do that? So we looked at Canva and PowerPoint and how do we take his little drawing that he made in class to a study aid that he could print or keep on his computer and refine? But it really started from that initial conversation of I don't like outlines, I don't like videos. How do we make something that is sustaining and lasting for him? And if I met with another student the next day, they'd be like, I love outlines, but I only like black and white text. I say, okay, that's fine. And these two students learn completely differently. But the most important thing is that you're giving students the space to express what they really feel like they need and you're meeting them where they're at and delicately challenging them to engage in that process of self discovery where they're able to articulate what works for them. Or in the case of that one young man I worked with, taking something that was existing that he was already doing and make it even more customizable and effective. So I think that's really a good place to start from.

A (57:02)

Yeah, no, it makes perfect sense. I mean, if you have learned before successfully and in a way that was fun and enjoyable for you, let's start there and build on that instead of trying to force your brain into a box it was never meant to be in. So I'm curious, that young man, what did he ultimately end up with? Did he end up with more kind of like how I. How I learned a real visual like one card. And that's how he.

B (57:28)

Yeah, exactly. It was. Each class note was sort of transformed into the equivalent of one PowerPoint slide of. Here is a visual representation of what I learned in this class. There was some had drawings, some had boxes like really basic text box with arrows connecting. If you're articulating a three point test or sort of a legal analysis, this flow essential question. If no, there's an arrow going to no and then there's a block beneath that that says the outcome. If it's a no, if it's a yes, another arrow, you know really basic things like that, where he had already been doing this in his notes, which was, and that was the funny part, Tracy, is like he had already been doing this but needed a way to formalize it in a way that he can refer back to. And he had this beautiful library of one page PowerPoints. And you can print that out, you can keep it on Google Drive however you want to do it. But it was taking sort of an upcycle of what he had already done and just making it a little bit more effective.

A (58:37)

Well, and then it's the awareness, right. That you brought to it and really put a spotlight on. Well, wait, you're already doing it. Let's refine that.

B (58:44)

Yeah, exactly. And that's the part I love the most about working with students is, you know, sometimes, especially for diverse learners and students who, especially in the legal education space, it's a solo journey. It's a tough journey to take on your own. And you have cohorts and classmates who are kind of your trench mates and going through the grind. But if you are a neurodiverse student, there is not a lot of built in support for you in law school education right now. And so for me to be able to at that time meet with students who were my peers and support them and encourage them to have these conversations, I think was one of my highlights of law school.

A (59:32)

Okay, so that leads to my next question. And maybe my assumption was wrong. I mean, certainly when I went through law school there was none of that. But what about today? What should law students know about using accommodations and support resources? Is it like. And a lot of other like, I'm thinking of grade school where, you know, they have IEPs and 503s and they're just not particularly effective. And if you are thought of as a smart student, in my experience, I'm thinking of my son. They just want to get you through. Honestly, they don't have the resources. They're doing what the government is requiring them to do. But is it really effective and helpful? Probably not.

B (60:14)

Yeah. I love this question because initially, truthfully, I did not think I would need accommodations in law school. I had not needed accommodations in college because as I said earlier, I had assignments where I was writing a lot of papers where I could take my sweet time. And you know, I had a deadline, but it was weeks in the making. So there wasn't that time pressure and there weren't exams and it wasn't until my first, one of my first semester professors, who's still a wonderful mentor to this Day, you know, came to me and said, have you thought about this? Have you thought about getting accommodations? Because, you know, law school's different, and I want to make sure you have support. And initially, I was really defensive.

A (60:53)

How could you not think you might need accommodations? You have dyslexia and audio processing challenges. And I mean, the amount of reading, it's like hundreds of pages, sometimes a night.

B (61:08)

Yeah, I didn't think I needed accommodations for my assignments. I was more concerned about the exams, completing the exams on time. I was like, how am I going to do this? Writing multiple pages in like an hour and a half? I don't know if I can do that. So I knew that the skills of completing the tasks on time, completing the reading assignments by the classes, that would be less of a struggle for me. But completing a timed exercise, that was a whole other beast that I wasn't. I was like, well, I'll give it a shot. My first exam, see how it goes, and then maybe ask for resources. But it wasn't really until that professor came to me and suggested it. So my. My first piece of advice for students who are. Who are neurodiverse and who are either entering into law school for the first time or who are getting diagnosed in law school is. Is talk to your students. Talk to your student support office or your student resources office and ask what resources are available. Some law schools do have referrals to tutors that either they work with. Some have an academic resource center where you're working with peers, and that's a free service like it had in my law school, where you're able to connect with upper grade students who are more. Who are varied in experience, some who are also neurodiverse as well. So utilizing those resources on campus is important. I think the second is, you know, I am a product of mentorship. I would not have gone to law school without the support of mentors and the support of other neurodiverse and neurotypical people who had gone through law school. So if there are people in your network who, you know are neurodiverse, or if you know of other lawyers in your family, a friend of a friend, someone who has been to law school before, talk to them about what you're experiencing. And yeah, you know, they may, you know, be a different generation as you, or they might not have gone to the same law school. But speaking to lawyers is a key part of being a lawyer, is you get to speak to other lawyers and that lifelong learning starts in law school. So I think that's My second piece, my third piece is I know that for many in any workplace and in any educational setting, there's fear, there's fear of disclosure. And disclosure is really scary. And that is a completely individual decision of whether you disclose or not. But know that if you do have a disability, you are eligible for accommodation. And that may involve either if you have a therapist, if you've been evaluated, if you have a diagnosis, that is more than what you would need to get accommodations in law school. And your law school should work with you to decide what to collaborate in that interactive process to decide what needs would allow you to excel the most in law school. And something to note too, if you get accommodations in law school and you're getting ready to take the bar exam, those accommodations that you get in law school are often directly transferred or are relevant information to the jurisdiction you're taking the bar in to get accommodations for the bar exam. So that is also another thing to consider, right? Is you are taking multiple exams in this three year time frame, but if you decide to get licensed, you're taking another exam in a few years. And if you know that you are going to need or want accommodations for that process, that's also something to consider.

A (64:52)

Sounds great. So what do you think, Stephanie? The legal profession still gets wrong about neurodiversity.

B (65:05)

I think that there's a misunderstanding that neurodiverse professionals and can't be strong lawyers or can't be strong legal professionals. And I think we think of the legal profession as one that's, I mean, it is, it's traditional. It's. There are strict rules, boundaries, deadlines, all of those things. But lawyers are creative. We have to be creative. We have to have people who are thinking of out of the box solutions to support our clients. We're the people who our clients and trusted advisors go to when they have complicated questions. And we're the people who are being asked to sit in that room in front of that whiteboard and figure out the best answer. And neurodiverse people are great to have in the room for those types of scenarios for that exact reason. Neurotypical people do a wonderful job at a lot of things. So do neurodiverse people. Neurodiverse people are not a liability in the legal industry. I think they're a necessity in our industry. And I think we need to be more welcoming. And that starts in legal education. I think we need to inspire neurodiverse lawyers or legal practitioners, anybody who wants to be a part of our field, that there's A space that's welcoming for them and that we're needed. So I really, I think that it shouldn't be framed as they're a good lawyer, but it's, it's. We are powerful minds and can contribute heavily to this industry and sometimes, you know, the, the power, the superpowers that neurodiverate diverse brains have are the missing piece. And I, I wish that was said out loud more.

A (66:58)

I mean, ultimately law is about solving problems and that is one of our biggest strengths. Right? Yeah, yeah, that creativity. Okay, so in closing, couple things I would love to know from you. What are the ADHD traits that you feel are responsible for your success?

B (67:17)

Number one, I'm curious about everything. I want to know. I want to know about everything. I'm a nerd, but in a way that is far reaching. I want to understand context, I want to understand sort of micro detail. And I think that makes me good in all the roles I have is I, I love detail, I love context. And as I mentioned earlier, I. My love for storytelling and me being able to absorb information through storytelling, I think is a superpower that I'm still discovering how its far reaching capabilities. But I think that number one, I also think, I think I'm a creative person. I'm learning to know how that fits in in my workspace. But I think as a creative person, I think it gives me, it gives me an edge when solving problems, solving complex problems for people, whether it be solving a complex problem for a friend or solving a complex problem at work. So I think both of those things are the things that make me shine.

A (68:21)

Wonderful. Stephanie, do you want to tell us about Growth Set Coaching? You know who your ideal client is? What are the kinds of things that you love to work on with them? Just anything.

B (68:34)

Yeah. So Growth Set coaching is a business that I founded last year that supports neurodiverse law students and bar takers. So the people who I love to speak to are students who are currently matriculated into law school who want extra support in study techniques, study resources, want additional support in time management, developing those skills that we were talking about earlier, sort of exploring different learning techniques, finding out your learning style. So if you're a current student and you're like, I don't even know how to get started with this new class I'm taking or how do I set up my schedule in a way that might be the best, the best fit for my brain and my learning style? I want to talk to you and I want to be a resource for you and Same if you're preparing for the bar. If you're with a bar prep program and you're still sort of figuring out how to maximize your time or how to balance things effectively, I want to speak to you too, and hopefully I can be of support as you're navigating both of these incredibly challenging journeys.

A (69:38)

Wonderful. So where can people find you? Where can they find growth set coaching? All of it?

B (69:44)

Yeah, I'm you. You can get connected with me at my website at www.growthsetcoaching.com. there's a way where you can book a quick little check in with me that's free. I also sort of give a little bit more about my background and also coaching plans. I know times are tough, especially for law students, so I do have a sliding scale that's available as well should students want to take advantage of that. But that's the best place to get all the information.

A (70:10)

And what was that URL again?

B (70:12)

Www.growthsetcoaching.com Wonderful.

A (70:17)

So this will be all in the show notes Stephanie, thank you so much for spending time with us here today. I loved having this conversation.

B (70:26)

Thank you Traci. Thank you so much and have a wonderful weekend.

A (70:30)

You too. So if you like this episode with Stephanie, please let us know by leaving a review. Our goal is to change the conversation around adhd, helping as many women as we possibly can learn how their ADHD brains work so that they too may discover their amazing strengths. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you here next week. You've been listening to the ADHD for Smart Asshole Women podcast. I'm your host Tracy Otsuka. Join us at adhd for smart women.com where you can find more information on my new book ADHD for Smartass Women. And my patented you'd ADHD brain is a okay system to help you get unstuck and fall in love with your brilliant brain. Lets pause here. Have you spent your whole life being told your way is the wrong way? If you try to use systems designed for a neurotypical brain, of course you'll feel like you're failing. But here's the truth. You were never the problem. You just have a different brain. Which means you need different systems. That is exactly why I created the A OK Academy. It's my six step patented framework designed to help you reconnect with your intuition and build systems based on your unique strengths. Let me help you reconnect with your intuition, trust yourself again and build a life that actually works for you. You've had the answers all along. I'll help you see them. Luck. It's time to stop second guessing and start trusting yourself again. Find the link in the show notes to sign up or book a free discovery call. Now let's get back to it.