A (3:47)

Hold.

B (3:48)

Hold the phone. It was just like this moment of like, okay, wait a minute. What's going on? What's going on in my brain?

A (3:58)

And you've learned since then, obviously not just from our work together and our friendship that's developed over time, that a lot of creative people have these traits and tendencies. And I think one of the biggest areas of confusion, Jess, is that people will say, well, I'm just creative or I'm a multi passionate or I'm this or I'm that. It's like, it's not like you didn't know you were different. You knew you were different, but you had different theories. Well, it's because of this or it's because of that. And it's like I went down that list of what I call attributional theories. Oh, well, I'm this way because of my childhood, or I'm this way because of this. And a lot of creative people are like, oh, I'm just fucking creative. Like, that's all there. That's end of subject. That's all there is to it. But we're very curious people, and I think a lot of us are really drawn to understanding self and others better, at least the ones who are kind of people Y and it's like, yeah, I get that I'm different, but why? And it's that curiosity that kind of drives us to either seek out that information or when it crosses our path, to be captivated by it. And. But you've made a decision as a result of this, and it's something we've talked about a number of times. It came up during the rebranding of the podcast, which you were very instrumental in. I kind of reached a point, even though I'd been a therapist for a bunch of years and been a business coach working exclusively with folks with ADHD for a number of years, that I started thinking you know, I think there's just a whole lot of people out there who identify with these strengths and struggles, but maybe don't want to have a diagnosis or don't really understand the point of a diagnosis other than medication. And if they're not interested in medication, like, why bother? Can we touch on that for a second?

B (5:50)

Yeah, absolutely. So there's a family history of anxiety and depression and a lot of my family members have been heavily medicated for years. And I have feelings on medication and I sort of believe that everybody should do what's right for them 100%. I, like my ideals are not part of this, but for me and myself, if there are natural things or habits that, that I can work on, if I can dig deep, and I don't want to say fix because I'm not broken. I'm just, I need to adapt. If I need to adapt my life in some ways, if I have to work a little bit harder to figure out how my life can be better on a daily basis or if I can, you know, find natural, you know, supplements or CBD has been pretty good for me too. Like there, I would rather try that to my hardest than take a pill. And I'm again, I think that medication is perfect for the person that wants to make their lives better. I am a non judgment person, but for me, if I can do those things, that's what I would rather do. So I've had other people before tell me, Jess, you're not broken, you don't need to be fixed. And I've always kind of constantly sought out, like, oh, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with me? Like, do I have adhd, Do I have anxiety? Do I have depression? Do I have, do I have, do I have. And what I'm realizing is that no matter if I have the label or not, I'm still living with this brain. And so the words that I call myself or the definition that I have for myself is not going to change because of that. What's, what's going to change is the actions that I take in my daily life to feel better and do better and have more joy and have more ability to breathe or have the ability to help other people. I mean, in my business, my main goal is to help other people. So if I can help myself, then I can be better for everybody in my life. My kids, my husband, my dog, although she helps me be better and my clients, you know, so the better that I can be, the better I can be for everybody around me. And none of that has anything to do with a label that I give myself.

A (8:30)

Yeah. Everything about that is so relatable. And even though I had a license to diagnose and treat people for mental disorders, as the years went by, I really voluntarily gave up using that. Because I think for some people, having an official diagnosis feels like permission, feels like acceptance. It can help them feel like. So now I know for sure that I'm not just lazy, unmotivated, whatever. Like, there's something legitimately different about me. And for some people who need the diagnosis to be able to give them that permission slip. Absolutely. Other people want to try medication, and for some of them, it's incredibly helpful. But I think even if you were on medication, I happen to be medicated. Even if you were on medication, that really only addresses a small percent of managing these traits. Like, it helps you persist longer at whatever you're paying attention to. But if you don't know how to pay attention to the right things at the right time for the right reasons, you're just gonna spend more time doing that. And something I remember you said to me a number of times is that, you know, I know I'm smart. I know I'm incredibly creative. I know that I can help people in a very unique way. I just need to figure out how to get out of my own way. And I think for a lot of the work that we did together, it was like understanding my brain is actually different. And I know one of your. I don't even want to say struggles, but it was you needing to understand how your brain worked, works so that you can craft your business and how you perform the tasks of your business in a way that doesn't feel so effortful.

B (10:33)

It's so funny. One of the things that was. Is overwhelming to me sometimes is when somebody's like, well, what's your turnaround time? And I. And I'm like, wait, hold on, I'll.

A (10:46)

Turn around, and you can count.

B (10:49)

What's your turnaround time? And for me, my turnaround time is when it's done and when it's good and when it's right and when it's perfect for you. And that sort of comes around how I work in. We talked a lot about transactional versus collaborative, and we should probably define those terms. Yes. Yeah. So I. When you first said that, I'm like, I don't know. People, you know, pay me money to give them stuff. Right. But I like to understand that the people that I work with are the. The masters of their business. And I love to kind of be a catalyst for their passion and use my creativity in a way that highlights them and positions them to reach their ideal clients. And the only way that I can do that is by understanding how they feel, understanding how they work, understanding their passions, their core values of their business, by understanding what. What their client experience is and understanding how their daily life works. You know, what is, what makes you tick. And when I can deeply understand that, then I can literally collaborate with them. I'm not building you a brand. I'm helping you understand who you are and what makes you special and attaching visuals to that, but it's so much more than that. And when I have clients that are. That are like, oh, I thought you were just going to, like, show me the things and let me pick. Well, how am I going to do that when I don't have your feeling? I need to hear your feelings and your opinions and your wishes and your hopes and your dreams. And when I'm in there moving, making changes and. And making edits based off of the feedback of what my clients are providing, that's a true collaboration. When somebody comes to me and says, I want to buy a logo, I want this, this, and this. You make it and I pay you. That's very transactional, and that's hard for me because it limits my creativity. When somebody says, oh, I was thinking this, or even if somebody, like, sends me an idea or like a logo or. Or some. Somebody else's work, and they're like, I want something like this, but, like, not exactly that. That's very difficult for me because it's. Recreate it.

A (13:36)

It's.

B (13:37)

It's not collaborative. It's you hiring. Hiring me to do a job, pay me to do it. And some of that work is okay, but some of it, what I. What I really, truly love to do is, like, go deeper. I heard something the other day that was like, I don't want small talk. Show me your soul. And I was like, that's it. Like, I don't want to talk about the weather. I want you to tell me, like, tell me more. I always want more of people.

A (14:10)

We were so well matched to work together. I think, like, you. You didn't create my new branding. We created it together.

B (14:22)

Yeah.

A (14:23)

And developed a really deep, mutually respectful, affectionate, hilarious bond. And you, you helped me see things in myself and in my brand and in the way that I work. And what's uniquely different and special and transformational about me, me and you, like you just said, you brought a visual representation to that and it reminds me when we first started working together, it's kind of like you knew you were creative, you knew you were this, you knew you were that. Like, you've done so many incredibly creative things and yet, because a lot of it is self taught, you don't have an mfa, for example. Yeah, it's like, well, is it good enough? And can I trust it? And can I really tell people, listen, you want to do it this way because the results are going to be great. Because I, to me, I see that as like, we are trained to think other people's approval is necessary for us to prove of ourselves that other people have to say, oh well, she's got their own credentials. Or we, you know, somebody else has to say, you're great. But if you say, trust me, you're gonna love this, that it's like, God, you're full of yourself. And so I think a couple of things that I wanted to highlight about how I saw you develop over time together is that you gave yourself permission, Jess, to take charge of your own creative identity, your own creative process. You started feeling a lot more confidence and clarity about what actually makes you different when this gets released. Like, I want you to listen to it a couple of times because the way you just described your process and the, the way you work very clearly, very confidently, like that took work, that took digging into it, that took being willing to step away from the transactional nature. That very sadly is how most creative artists, graphic designers work. Because they don't understand that there's an alternative or maybe they don't think that's what people want. And you made the decision. Well, not everybody wants it to be sure. There are plenty of people just think, well, I'm just going to get Etsy basic, not even pro. I can do this. Anybody can do this. They're not your people. You're not going to be creating templates, you're not going to be teaching people how to DIY their. You are the right person for someone who understands that their brand is, is an intimate reflection of, of who they are, their gifts, their talents, their values. Their value. And you want to help bring that out. What we created together, I never, ever would have been able to do on my own. I never would have even imagined it. It never would have occurred to me. And because you trust yourself and you've learned how to work with your brain, you now trust that that's your process. That's, that's how you work that it's like that you can do the basic stuff. I'VE seen you've done plenty of basic stuff, and if you have to, you can, but the collaborative approach is, like, that unlocks your next level creativity and also just creates a tremendous level of satisfaction for you.

B (17:52)

I think that there's something to be said for, I mean, so many. So many parts of our lives, whether working with a coach or working with a therapist or, you know, calling your best friend because you had a fight with your husband and you want to talk it out. Like, I know myself, and I know so many people that need a mirror in their lives for. For anything. And when it comes to what I do and branding, no matter what happens, like, we live in our own little world in our heads, right? So if you are sitting there and you're trying to develop your own brand or, you know, or you pick a template or whatever, and you're gonna get in the way of yourself. And having somebody to work through every step of the process with you is like having your own personal mirror. And my favorite thing that I get to do is push people, like, outside of their comfort zone. You need that X factor. And. And, yes, you may feel like you don't want to put on those red stilettos, but I'm gonna make you put on those red stilettos, and I'm gonna make you walk across the room and shake your tush and see how you feel. How does that feel? And pushing people to an outer limit where they wouldn't have gone because they would stay what's. Where's comfortable gives people permission to have the confidence in themselves. And I think that the brands and the people and the businesses that I'm attracted to are the ones that are undeniably themselves and unique and. And authentic, and the ones that come at everything with confidence. And I'm not talking about, like, bow confidence. I'm talking about, like, real, true passion and confidence. And the only way you can get to that level is, like, it's like the five people in the room. You know, you need to. I feel like people were put on this earth to raise each other up in some way. And if I can do that for anybody in my life, a friend, a client, my husband, my children, like, obviously, that's what we need, and that's where the collaboration comes in. And that's where, you know, my big, crazy brain has opened up even more possibilities to how I can help people in the future because of working with you and really digging into this way of thinking.

A (20:38)

I love that you came to a point where you thought, you know, what I'M going to set aside the labels. I'm going to set aside all the things that I've thought about myself in the past. And I'm just going to get really curious about, like you say, this big, beautiful brain. And I like to say, you know, I work with people with big ideas and busy brains, and it's like. And I don't need to fit into anybody else's model for how I do what I do, and I don't need to fit into anybody else's productivity schema. I don't need to follow any coaches, gurus. You know what it's like. I need to figure out how to work with the brain I've got, not the one I thought I had or was supposed to have. And that may look really different. Something I'm thinking about is one of the things you wanted to do is be more consistent. And this was something we had to really chip away at over time. Because, like most of us, your thought was being consistent means I'm working on my business all the time. But for you, Joe, that just wasn't the best approach. For you, the best approach was stepping away from the business and living your life and building pillow forts with the girls in the living room and going fishing with your husband and going to record stores and going through old vinyl and then maybe coming back and sitting down for a few hours. So it's like, I think you always. Something we discovered about your brain is that you kind of always need to be priming the pump. You always need to be stoking the furnace, filling the creative fire. Like Julia Cameron says, in the artist's way, you know, going on artist dates and just constantly nurturing your creativity so that when it's time to sit down and quote, unquote, be productive, you can do it. It's not constant. Oh, I gotta sit down and do a. Make sure I'm doing two hours of creative work every day that we tried it. It wasn't right for your brain.

B (22:53)

No, no. I tried the whole time blocking thing. And it's so funny because it was like. It's like, okay, now I have it in my schedule that I have to sit down and be creative on this one particular project. Like, my brain went, nope, nope, no. And when I find myself getting stuck on something, it's also an energy exchange. So if I'm getting frustrated with something, I'm not gonna put that energy into my work. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go down the street to the thrift store. I'm gonna clear My brain. I'm gonna walk around and. Or I'm gonna, you know, play with my watercolors for a couple of minutes, or I'm just gonna do something house.

A (23:35)

With the dog, you know.

B (23:37)

Yeah. The artist in me needs to have freedom. And if I'm putting the artist that needs the freedom and the ability to go wild into a box, then it's just doing my creativity a disservice. It's doing my business a disservice. It's doing my brain and my health, mental health a disservice to put me into a box. And, you know, it's this whole idea of, like, owning my own business fell into my lap. And that's a story for another day. But I think that realizing that I am allowed to make this be whatever it needs to be is the. Was like the realization of a lifetime. Instead of, you know, hustle mentality or. Or time blocking or, you know, push, push, push. It's like, no, like, if this. I need to let it breathe because that's where I'm at my best.

A (24:42)

We need fun. We need flexibility. We need freedom. Not so that we can fuck off. Although a little bit of that is probably very skillful as well, so that we can cultivate the curious, creative, charismatic qualities that help us do our best work. And I think it's the. The having the self acceptance and the self awareness to know when you're just around and when you're giving yourself some freedom so that you can create from a flow state as opposed to a forced state. Something I do want to talk about is that you like me, like all of us have had this conditioning to, I need to follow the rules. I need to do this. Dealing with guilt, when we don't feel we're working when we should be working, is it okay to earn good money from something I get so much enjoyment from? Like, all. You know, I think the time that we spent together, you unlearned as much as you learned and continue to learn because we're constantly peeling back the late layers to our authentic self and abandoning things that we were taught that didn't serve us then and they sure don't serve us now. But one of the frustrations you had during our time together was, you know, we would set these big goals and plans, and you had every intention of fulfilling them. But more than anyone else I've worked with in the last few years, Jess, you had major, major trauma and loss during our time together that obviously it was going to hold you back. Can we talk about that for A.

B (26:37)

Little bit, yeah, absolutely. So I lost my mother just over a year ago, and then two months later, my father. My father passed. And it's like, I've been. I'm laughing because it's. It's not funny, just like, laughing at my. But I feel like I've been brought into this, like, secret society that, like, I never knew existed because now I understand what people go through when they. They lose somebody. You know, any sort of loss teaches you so much about yourself. And I haven't even. I honestly, like, thought, oh, you know, a year's gone by, why am I not over? You just never get over it. Like, it's not. That's not something. But I think that one of the things that I learned from the working with you on my business and going through that severe loss is, is that you're going to have, like, ebbs and flows and you're going to. There are going to be days when you're just, like, not going to want to get out of bed. And there's going to be days where you have to give yourself permission to have a little bit of joy because. And I keep reminding myself, like, they would want me to be successful, they would want me to be happy. But even that, I think that losing both of my parents so close together has taught me a lot about the strength that I have inside of me to. To keep pushing forward and learning about myself. And honestly, even just thinking about my mom. And so a lot of the struggles that she had, and I 100 believe that she had ADHD and struck and struggled for a very, very, very long time with a lot of her mental health. And looking back on that and now seeing what I'm going through, that is really, really eye opening for me. And I think that there's part of me that was like, you know, I feel like I could have gotten so much more out of this process if all of that hadn't happened. Like, maybe I should have waited to work with Diane or if only I met her earlier. But no matter what happens, I am so grateful that you were there to help me through all of that time. Because whether I went, my brain always wants to, like, do everything at a really fast pace. You know, I want to. I want to learn something new and I want to be really good at it. And if I'm not the best at it, I'm going to. I'm going to throw all that out the window. And so when it came to coaching and, you know, business, what. And I'm like, well, why am I Not progressing. Why am I not the best at this? And then throw, you know, this severe trauma on top of it. It was sort of like, well, man, like, I feel like I should be much further than I am, but I'm exactly where I need to be.

A (29:48)

You not only are exactly where you need to be, I think we are really terrible at being able to accurately identify our own growth and progress because like you say, we. We just keep moving the fucking go. Like, we tend to be perfectionists. If. If we care about something a little bit, we care about it a lot. I think of it as like full ass or no ass. We can't half ass anything. And so you go at every. Everything you do, everything I do. It's part of our nature to want to do our very, very best. And that's a beautiful thing because when we can get out of our own way, we can produce spectacular results. The challenge is learning to be satisfied with those results, Learning to quiet that inner voice that's constantly saying, shouldn't you be farther by now? Did you really make the most of this? What if this or that had to happen? You know, those voices are not helpful. They never have been. And, you know, because we can't prove it one way or the other, there's no way you can prove that you would have been further along. There's no way that you can prove that you should be further along. There's no way that you can prove to yourself, to me, to anyone else, that you aren't exactly where you should be. So why not just claim it and decide? This is how I'm going to talk to myself. I am going to affirm my growth. I'm going to affirm my progress. I am going to choose to believe that where I am is exactly where I'm supposed to be. And this is my path. This isn't. This isn't an aberration from my path. There's no way you can do your own path. Wrong, I guess, is what it comes down to. And I think it's when we think we're not doing it right. That's our old conditioning. Fighting for survival, fighting for relevance, trying to hold on to control. And we can say, you know what? We can either say, fuck off, bitch. Or we can say, duly noted, duly noted. Or I hear you. Like, we can have a town hall meeting with our own brain. Like, I hear that question. Or, you know, that's an interesting observation. Thank you for sharing it. And then just carry on with loving and accepting and challenging ourselves to. To be who we really are. I think that's really the challenge of the ADHD brain. Whether we have a business or not is like double down on becoming the most you est you and see what happens, you know, And I think you have.

B (32:42)

I like that you said the most you est you. Because, you know, I think that the. The striving for perfection or striving for the best version of you or striving for better is something that, like, the. There were. We're filled with just all this toxic positivity in the world and everybody lose more weight, be smarter, work harder. It's. Make more money. It's like, how about we eat the cake? You know, like, eat, like just sitting down and like, spending that extra 30 seconds, like hugging your child. Like, just be present and understand that, like, going a mile a minute isn't always gonna make you better or make you feel better. Like, feel like it's okay to just. To just. And. And I think the more we allow ourselves with our busy brains to slow. Slow down a little bit and just kind of be present and be in the moment is what I've been sort of working on the past couple of weeks, actually. Longer.

A (33:55)

Longer than that.

B (33:56)

Longer than that, yeah.

A (33:58)

Because I'm recalling conversations we had several months ago where you were saying, that's what I want. Want most of all is to be more present.

B (34:06)

I just want to be more. Yeah, yeah. And I think that when you're more present, you feel more like yourself. Like you. When you are trying to be 10 steps ahead of yourself at all times, you forget who. Who you are and what feelings feel like. And you have to train yourself to.

A (34:26)

Slow down and sometimes speed up.

B (34:30)

And sometimes speed up. Well, that's your approach.

A (34:33)

Like, you. It's like, instead of thinking, I need to be consistent, consistent, consistent, consistent, and that's how I'm going to get ahead. I mean, you need to be consistent and that you're taking regular actions towards your goal. But how those actions look like maybe big spikes and then long periods.

B (34:54)

Oh, yeah.

A (34:54)

When I'm.

B (34:55)

When I'm in hyper focus. Leave me alone. Yeah, I'm getting the things done. My husband knows that if I put my headphones on and, like, I start cleaning, like, he's like, I'm just gonna be over here. Like, I'm just gonna get out of your way. Because Tornado Jess, like, gets it done. You know, we. It. There is. There is nothing that can't get in my way when I'm like that. But then there is a period of rest that needs to happen. After. Otherwise, you will completely burn out.

A (35:24)

And we've both been there, we've both experienced burnout, and know that. All right, that's not working for me. So this is what we're doing now. Hey, as we're wrapping up, I wonder if you want to share what something you are currently working on now, even though our official engagement has come to an end, it's something that we started together and you are in the process of doing now. And I think it's really exciting and there might be some listeners who'd like to know about it.

B (35:55)

Yeah. So one of my big, crazy ideas that I came up with while we were working together is to start a podcast of my own. So I have started the Brand Transformations podcast, and I am seeking out my. My clients that I have worked with in the past and talking with them about their brand transformation, where they were, where, how the process was of working through a rebrand, and then where they're going. And what's so great about this is that it's helping me and them at the same time. And it's been such a fun thing to. To have conversations with my clients and really, like, dig deep on, like, okay, what were the challenges and. And what. What were your expectations and all of the things. Branding? And then I. My hope is that it may help somebody out there that. That listens, understand that this is not a black and white thing and see the difference between a transactional approach and a collaborative approach. And maybe, you know, if they're on the. On the fence, on if it's time for a rebrand, then maybe this will help them find somebody to. To work with. And not necessarily even for me. I'm not the person for everybody, but I think it's just. It's been. It's been really fun, even just setting it all up and getting it started. I'm a newbie to podcasting, but I just love having the conversations. So it is launched. It's a private podcast, so you have to subscribe, and then new, new episodes will come out as they're aired.

A (37:47)

I will make sure that we link to it in the show notes. So people who want to know more about this collaborative approach to branding or rebranding can get to know you through the eyes of your clients, including me, as I will be one of your episodes. And I think, you know, we started off with you talking about how somebody asking you, what's your turnaround time? Just makes you want to throw up in your mouth a little, versus now you have a podcast where you're not only talking about this is who I am, this is how I help. This is why you might want to consider whether it's right for you like that you're really leaning into the US to you, which is to say you want to do deep, meaningful, truly transformational work with your clients, not just putting on a fresh coat of paint and calling it a day. And by the way, who wouldn't want to work with someone whose philosophy is eat the cake? Hey friend, I know that investing in business coaching as an entrepreneur with ADHD can be really intimidating and frankly, feel like a crapshoot. Will they blow your mind and rock your world or just waste your money and your time? One of the best ways I know to help someone decide if a coach is the right one for them is to see what people who've actually worked with them have to say about it. So if you're considering me, I put together a playlist of my Client Success Story podcast episodes for your browsing pleasure. Just click on the link in the show notes to check them out.