How to Stop People Pleasing and Manage ADHD Rejection Sensitivity at Work

Summary

Summary of ADHD-ish Podcast Episode:

How to Stop People Pleasing and Manage ADHD Rejection Sensitivity at Work
Host: Diann Wingert
Guest: Dave Greenwood
Date: June 24, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Diann Wingert welcomes back ADHD coach and author Dave Greenwood to unpack the challenges of people pleasing and rejection sensitivity at work—especially for neurodivergent entrepreneurs and professionals. Using lessons from the book The Courage to Be Disliked (by Ichiro Kishimi and Fumitake Koga, inspired by Alfred Adler), they explore mindset shifts for self-acceptance, managing interpersonal dynamics, and embracing the liberating possibility of being "disliked" in the pursuit of authentic living and sustainable success.

Their candid, sometimes irreverent conversation mixes practical strategies, real-life stories, and provocative insights about self-concept, burnout, and how to cultivate deeper agency in life and work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Courage to Be Disliked: Introduction & Relevance

• [01:42] Dave introduces The Courage to Be Disliked and discusses Alfred Adler’s philosophy.
• The book isn’t ADHD-specific but contains universal lessons, especially resonant for people with ADHD.
• Facing the challenge of self-acceptance vs. striving for change.

Dave Greenwood [01:57]: “There were so many pieces of the book that literally stop me in my tracks… Not only resonated with people with ADHD, but just like stopped me thinking, this guy’s living with me.”

2. Separation of Tasks: You’re Not Responsible for Others’ Emotions

• [04:06] Adler’s "separation of tasks" challenges the notion we must manage others’ feelings.
• Diane and Dave connect this to ADHDers’ tendency to people-please and fear rejection in professional settings.
• You are responsible for your actions, not others’ interpretations or emotions (e.g., being late to a meeting).

Dave Greenwood [06:57]: “Your task is not to be responsible for or manage the emotions of others.”

• [07:10] Cultural conditioning teaches us otherwise (“don’t take the last cookie, you’ll make people feel bad”).

3. People Pleasing, Burnout, and Relationship Dynamics

• [07:50] People pleasing often arises from desire to be liked and insecurity.
• Adler’s focus on equality: All relationships should be horizontal, not vertical/hierarchical.
• Diane links chronic people pleasing to burnout—especially when one neglects personal boundaries to meet external expectations.

4. Inferiority, Fixed vs. Growth Mindset

• [09:53] The difference between momentary feelings of inferiority and an inferiority complex.
• Comparison with others can be used either as self-defeat or motivation.
• Diane highlights the importance of rejecting “outsourcing your self-esteem” and moving toward growth and contribution.

Diane Wingert [11:53]: “Our job is not to compete. Our job is to accept ourselves, accept others, and contribute.”

5. Can We Really Change? – Pushing Back on Limits

• [14:49] Emphasizing the Adlerian idea: change is possible, but it’s a process—not magic.
• Challenges when clients seek coaching but aren’t ready to do the work (“the magic pill” fantasy).
• The danger of relying on diagnosis or history as unchangeable excuses.

Diane Wingert [16:07]: “You have to be willing to believe to some degree that you can change. Otherwise, why engage the services of someone whose skill set is largely devoted to helping people change so they can reach their goals?”

6. Timing, Burnout, and Readiness for Change

• [18:56] Many seek help when they hit a breaking point (burnout), but aren’t necessarily ready or able to engage in change.
• Healing requires patience, not just urgency or despair.
• Diane emphasizes the repeated, lifelong nature of these challenges for ADHDers.

7. Interpersonal Problems: The Root of Most Struggles

• [22:53] Adler’s “all problems are interpersonal” thesis—endorsed with nuance by both.
• Majority of stress and anxiety at work or home relate directly to concern over other people’s judgments, expectations, or reactions.

Dave Greenwood [24:02]: “Unless you are on a deserted island and starving, generally speaking our day to day challenges are those with other people.”

8. Expectations & The Four Tendencies

• [24:35] Diane references Gretchen Rubin’s Four Tendencies to explain how most people are “obligers”—meeting others’ expectations while letting themselves down, fueling people pleasing and potential resentment.

9. ADHD and Relationship Complexity

• [28:31] ADHD can add layers of difficulty to relationships (though not always; sometimes it’s a strength, e.g. in sales).
• Scar tissue from misunderstood childhood experiences can fuel adult sensitivity and rejection fears.
• Achieving peace often means confronting and accepting these patterns—and giving up the comfort of feeling misunderstood.

Diane Wingert [30:55]: “Learning to approve of ourselves no matter what… and staying in the present moment… is probably the hardest work any of us could ever attempt.”

10. Present Moment Awareness & Self-Acceptance

• [31:49] Meditation and reversing the traditional self-help order: accept yourself first, then develop self-awareness.

11. Burnout, Assholes, and Imposter Syndrome

• [34:20] Dave jokes that “assholes don’t burn out,” because people-pleasers are typically those susceptible to burnout, as they care deeply about others’ opinions.
• Narcissists and true impostors don’t have imposter syndrome; those who worry are often genuinely competent.

12. Superiority Complex, Masking, and Division

• [39:21] Some in the neurodivergent community use “you don’t understand me” as a distancing or protective mechanism—which can backfire by increasing isolation and reducing support.
• Diane expands on the costs of defaulting to “no one gets me,” both at work and in burnout.

13. Where to Start? – Practical Takeaways

• [44:13] Dave’s advice for listeners who want to experiment:
  • Don’t just accept advice blindly—engage with critique, skepticism, and curiosity.
  • The audiobook version of The Courage to Be Disliked is recommended for its dialogic format and emotional nuance.
  • Cultivate self-awareness and openness to being “gobsmacked” (hit with new, challenging perspectives).
  • The ultimate promise: freedom and peace of mind, not just efficiency or popularity.

Dave Greenwood [46:48]: “It’s not a self-help book, but it does help you… like a work of fiction but with a fuck-ton of wisdom wrapped in the storytelling.”

14. The Most Controversial Take: Anger as Control

• [46:58] The book’s assertion: Anger is often used to control others—regardless of neurotype. This is flagged as a topic deserving further personal reflection.

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Notable Quotes

• Diane Wingert [03:06]: “It is an act of courage to be willing to be disliked... Being willing to be who you really are—even if people dislike you, reject you, don’t want to hire you, that’s OK.”
• Dave Greenwood [07:50]: “There is a direct connection between people pleasing and wanting to make sure the other person feels good and doesn’t dislike me.”
• Diane Wingert [11:53]: “Our job is to accept ourselves, accept others, and, and contribute… if we could do anything to approximate that mindset, it would solve a lot of problems.”
• Dave Greenwood [21:12]: “We actually do tell ourselves things that are untrue… we are pretty good at giving ourselves a narrative that can be disproven.”
• Diane Wingert [34:20]: “Assholes don’t burn out… people who care what others think are the ones who burn out.”
• Dave Greenwood [46:58]: “We use anger as a way to control others.”
• Diane Wingert [47:24]: “If that doesn’t make you curious… I don’t know what would.”

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Key Timestamps

• [01:42] – Introduction to The Courage to Be Disliked and its relevance
• [04:06] – Separation of tasks and people pleasing
• [09:53] – Inferiority, mindset, and comparison traps
• [16:07] – “Magic pill” coaching and change readiness
• [22:53] – The primacy of interpersonal problems
• [24:35] – Gretchen Rubin’s Four Tendencies & expectations management
• [28:31] – ADHD and relationships
• [31:49] – Self-acceptance vs. self-awareness (and why order matters)
• [34:20] – Burnout, narcissism, imposter syndrome
• [39:21] – Using “no one understands me” as both protection and isolation
• [44:13] – Practical ways to experiment with ‘the courage to be disliked’
• [46:58] – Anger as a tool of control (controversy)

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Tone & Style

• Conversational, frank, and full of wit.
• Willingness to tackle controversial or challenging topics, occasionally with explicit language for emphasis.
• Use of real-life anecdotes and client stories to ground theory in practice.
• Encouraging skepticism, self-compassion, and experimentation.

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Action Steps for Listeners

1. Read or listen to The Courage to Be Disliked—preferably the audiobook for its engaging dialogue.
2. Reflect on personal patterns of people pleasing and rejection sensitivity, especially around work and professional relationships.
3. Experiment with the “separation of tasks”—notice when you take responsibility for others’ feelings, and try letting go.
4. Practice self-acceptance before self-awareness to reduce fear of introspection.
5. Be open to moments that “gobsmack” you—sometimes profound change begins with discomfort or challenge.
6. Check the show notes for links to related episodes and coaching offerings.

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This episode is a call to embrace the “messy middle”—for ADHDers and anyone else—of managing relationships, boundaries, and self-concept, in service of authentic, less anxious living.

Transcript

[Dave Greenwood]

Foreign.

[Podcast Host Intro/Outro]

If you've ever found yourself stuck in people pleasing mode or having difficulty with self acceptance, wanting to live more authentically even if it ruffles a few feathers, this episode is your permission slip to experiment with new ways of thinking. So grab your earbuds and get ready for some practical, thoughtful advice and perhaps a gentle brick to the side side of the head about changing your mindset, nurturing better relationships, and finding true peace of mind. In this episode, I welcome back my friend and fellow ADHD coach Dave Greenwood. We're tackling the tricky balance between accepting yourself as you are and believing you can change the connection between burnout and people pleasing and the incredible, if not a bit controversial, freedom that comes with having the Courage to Be disliked based on a book by that title.

[Diane]

As with every other conversation we've had, Dave, we have been talking so long and I hope we will remember enough of the good stuff. Now that we've officially pushed the record button today, we are going to unpack life lessons and lessons for work from a very special book that you introduced me to. It's not an ADHD book, but man, is it full of lessons for those of us with adhd. Cue us up and kick us off.

[Dave Greenwood]

Well, the book is the Courage to Be Disliked. It's about the teachings of Alfred Adler. He was a medical doctor and a psychotherapist. Like in the 1800s. He was like buddies with Freud and all that, but it talks about his kind of philosophy of life. And there were so many pieces of the book that literally stop me in my tracks and remove the ADHD for a minute. I think for anybody, how we, how we behave, the habits that we acquire over time, the way we think about life professionally and personally. But then I got to thinking there were so many lessons, and I'll put this disclaimer on it, maybe a little controversial, so let's just throw that out there that I think people with ADHD can take away from the book. Not everything. Like, there's plenty of things in the book that people may disagree with, but I just found that there were so many things in the book that not only resonated with people with adhd, but just like stopped me in my tracks thinking, this guy's living with me, you know, the people that wrote the book, it's just like, holy crap, you know, and subtly called the person reading the book out, you know, including myself. And I'm not easy to admit things like that.

[Diane]

Well, starting with the title, Dave, I mean, you and I know each other pretty well and a Lot of people with ADHD are a little sensitive, shall we say? A lot of folks identify with rejection, sensitivity and other kinds of sensitivities. And I don't know how many of us would knowingly, willingly, joyfully pick up a book with the title the Courage to Be Disliked. You would. I would. That just grabs my attention and I'm thinking, ooh, because you're right, it is. Or they're right, the authors. It is an act of courage to be willing to be disliked. Now, some people go out of their way to be disliked, and that's a whole other conversation. But being willing to, to be who you really are. And if that means some people dislike you, talk shit about you, reject you, don't want to hire you, don't want to date you, don't want to be your friend, that's okay, right?

[Dave Greenwood]

But I think you and I, I think, had maybe a couple conversations about the whole ADHD and rejection piece of our brain, wherever that resides in our skull, you know? But that, that is one of the main discussion points in the book is what Adler calls the separation of tasks. And it's a weird way of putting it.

[Diane]

It is a weird way of putting it. I didn't get it when I first looked at that. I'm like, wait, what?

[Dave Greenwood]

Because when, you know, you know, people come to you and come to me and they're like, tasks like, you know, I can't, I can't finish this report for my boss, or I can't do this thing for the client, or I can't. You know, we think about tasks and more of a mechanical.

[Diane]

Yes.

[Dave Greenwood]

Like discussion. Right. Or task avoidance. You know, his discussion about tasks is what is yours and what is mine. So, for example, I'm going to communicate to my client or boss or co worker, X, Y and Z, okay? It is my task to do that effectively. It is not my task to have them understand or even agree with my communication. And there are several examples of, of that. But your job isn't to make somebody else feel a certain way, if that makes sense.

[Diane]

Yeah, it's like.

[Dave Greenwood]

And I think we get tied up in that so much. Like, like, how come this person doesn't like me? How come this person isn't getting back to me? How come my boss is always, you know, riding me or treating me different than others? Right.

[Diane]

Here's a classic one. Because so many of us have time blindness issues, or as I prefer to say, time optimism. Because I always think I have more of it than I actually do. And so many people will Say that person is always late. He doesn't respect me. It's like, um. First of all, that's making a big old assumption. But whether you have ad, ADHD or not, there are many reasons for someone to be late. Time blindness is one of them. That's common to folks like us. But are we responsible for that other person feeling disrespected or believing that our lateness is a sign of disrespect when that's not our intention? And there's many other potential explanations. I don't feel responsible for that being their interpret. And according to this theory, that's not my task. My task is that I agreed to have this meeting. Maybe my task is to make every effort to be on time. But if I'm late and the other person's interpretation is that's a sign of disrespect, my task does not include how they feel about my lateness. Right, right.

[Dave Greenwood]

No, exactly. I mean, bottom line, your. Your task is not to be responsible for or manage the emotions of others, so to speak. So.

[Diane]

And yet we teach this. We could recondition this in our culture. I mean, you hear parents and your parents probably told you that. You might have even told your kid this, don't take the last cookie. You're gonna make other kids feel bad. Or don't say that, you're gonna hurt that feeling.

[Dave Greenwood]

I know I always take the last cookie.

[Diane]

Well, no, I gotta take and put the rest back. Which is probably worse that, you know, we teach kids that they are responsible for how other people feel. So don't do that. You'll hurt her feelings. It's like, wait a minute, but I'm not responsible for other people's feelings.

[Dave Greenwood]

This part of his philosophy, the separation of tasks, one would argue, is directly linked to people pleasing, which many in the ADHD community and others, we don't own people pleasing. But there is a direct connection between I people. Please. Because part of me wants to make sure that the other person feels good and doesn't dislike me or feel disrespected or think that I am less than the other person. Right. What he talks about also, if you dig into this, is the relationships, which we can talk about, but like vertical and horizontal relationships. And his argument is that, like, all relationships should be equal, whether you're the CEO or the janitor.

[Diane]

Yes. And also what I think is really fascinating, and I would love to get into a little deeper, is the. The premise in this book that. And also in Adlerian psychology, that we are all fundamentally good and we should assume, you know, all humans have equal value and that we are all fundamentally good, and yet the majority of us are insecure. In the book the Big Leap, which I refer to quite often, this concept of upper limiting and this belief that the majority of humans have that they have a fundamental flaw, and in this book, this notion that I'm fundamentally flawed, I. I'm insecure. I feel inferior to others. And what that ends up doing is not only translating into all kinds of inauthentic behavior to get people to like us, or at least not dislike. It also propels us into behavior where we are attempting subtly and not so subtly to be superior to others so that we can kind of counteract that insecurity.

[Dave Greenwood]

I want people listening to understand that I am not a psychologist. I didn't spend five seconds in medical school. Okay? So. But I think there's so many layers of that. So, for example, the inferiority complex that he talks about, or the. Or the feelings of inferiority, which I actually believe he distinguishes between those two as well. But he talks about how you can let inferiority stop you in your tracks thinking, you know, okay, here's this guy running this business over here. He's killing it. I'm running the same type of business, and I'm not killing it. So that means I'm inferior to him. He's got all the business. I shouldn't try anymore. Anymore. Okay, Yeah. I should give up feeling inferior. Yeah. You're comparing versus maybe using the inferiority to some extent to maybe push your drive. So, for example, you go in the gym, there's a couple people in there that are in there all the time. They're very healthy, they're very fit. Maybe you're not so much. You have room to grow in the fitness and health category.

[Diane]

This is theoretical. We're not talking personal experience, right?

[Dave Greenwood]

Well, no, there's a lot of people who look much better in the gym than I do. But can you use that as a driver to motivate you to maybe do better rather than basically said, oh, that guy owns health, and there's no more health left in the world.

[Diane]

He took it more than his share. There isn't enough for me.

[Dave Greenwood]

Right. Yeah. So I think there's. It's how you look at your view of things through that lens of being inferior that I. That I believe make the difference. And he. He kind of distinguishes that. So I think he also. He distinguishes. And forgive me, because I. I can't remember exactly how he drills down, but he said there's a Difference between feeling inferior and inferiority complex, which you may know more about with your, you know, professional training.

[Diane]

Well, I think it kind of reminds me there's so many, so many crossovers to other things that we've studied, other things that we're aware of. I was reminded of like growth mindset versus the fixed mindset and how they talk about that. Our job here as human beings is not to do better than others. Our job is not to be approved of by others. I refer to that as like outsourcing your self esteem. Our job is not to compete. Our job is to accept ourselves, accept others, and, and contribute. And while that may sound like really, I don't know, Pollyannish, it certainly would solve a lot of problems we're having in the world if we could do anything to approximate that mindset, like the growth mindset, fixed mindset. Fixed mindset is. These are the cards I was given. I have adhd, I have dyslexia, I have this, I have that. You know, my, my parents didn't know what the hell they were doing or whatever. And this guy over here, this gal over her here, she has all these advant that's fixed. So I guess I'll just lower my expectations. And it's like, but we need to.

[Dave Greenwood]

As people who ask us for assistance, learn how to infiltrate that I believe a little bit. Because there are a lot of people with ADHD and maybe in the neurodivergent community, so to speak, that do have that, that fixed mindset. And it may not be a positive. One of Adler's huge things is, you know, you can change your life. I would separate that and distinguish that by you. And I also know, well that sometimes when somebody's brain is wired differently, and we know many of them, you can't force things. You've got to work with the energy, you've got to work with the, you know, with that type of person and find ways to figure out how to work with their style of thinking, etc. Etc. So, but you can change. So the person who says that, well, I can't get to work early because I've got to do X, Y and Z. And then I get distracted by Candy Crush and all this stuff. And then I don't get the office till 11. And they're like, well, I got to do this, I got to do that. And that's when you start to say, okay, there's a little bit of bullshit going on here. Okay, you can change. You don't have to play Candy Crush and be late. For work. You really don't. Is it a process to wean yourself off it? Sure, I would argue that. But his philosophy is that you can change if you want to change.

[Diane]

Now, this is where it starts to get a little controversial. We'll get into the other more controversial stuff in a few minutes, like.

[Dave Greenwood]

But you and I have also. We have talked to so many people who, I guess, to be blunt, make excuses for how they operate, correct?

[Diane]

Yes, yes.

[Dave Greenwood]

So. Because that's the way I am. Okay.

[Diane]

Yes. And that is challenging to work with because if someone says, you know, I am what I am, you know, it's like I. And whether they attribute it to adhd, they attribute it to childhood trauma, they attribute it to, you know, their circumstance, either their. Their nature, nurture, whatever the belief that this is who I am, this is how I am, these are the challenges that I have, and that's that. And then hires a coach. That's really challenging because, you know, you have to believe to some degree, you have to be willing to believe to some degree that you can change. Otherwise, why would you engage the services of someone whose skill set is largely devoted to helping people change so they can reach their goals?

[Dave Greenwood]

Because I think many people who contact somebody who does what you and I do, whether it's you, me, anybody else, they. Number one, I think they obviously contact a coach or a mentor or whatever they are called too late. I'm not saying too late in the fact that there's no hope, but now they're operating in panic mode and I got to get my shit together and everything else. And then they start getting on sessions with somebody, and I think they get easily frustrated. This is my experience. Because the person that you started to work with did not wave the magic wand, did not solve all your problems. I think quickly. That's my controversial assessment of that, Dave.

[Diane]

That's fair, because. And I think it's one of the reasons why it's important for folks who do what we do to do a good screening. And one of the questions I ask when someone books a consultation with me before I've even met them, has anything happened recently that's made getting help feel urgent? I don't know what the exact words are. Similar to the question I used to ask as a therapist, because, you know, there's no such thing as adult onset adhd. If you have adhd, you've always had it. You might not have been diagnosed till you were 30, 40, 50, or beyond, but you've always had it. It didn't just, you know, arrive on the scene at some point in your life. So you've been working with it or not your entire life. You've had workarounds. You've had, you know, strategies, effective, ineffective. You've been dealing with this your whole life. And at some point you develop the belief that, okay, now what I'm experiencing is no longer tolerable. Now I need to do something about it. And to your point, whatever we've been tolerating for however long we've been tolerating it, once that becomes unacceptable and we feel like the need to do something about it that doesn't. You're absolutely right. It doesn't necessarily mean that you then have the will and the patience to unlearn all of the ways that you've been tolerating it functionally, dysfunctionally, so that you can get better. You might just want things to change, but you might not want to be part of the change process. And that's what I refer to as the magic pill. Or some. Somebody kind of wants us to have a. Wants us to be the fairy godmother, smack them over the head with the magic wand. They don't want to do the work to change. They want to have. They want to be on the other.

[Dave Greenwood]

Side of that change, but they also may not be in a place to be able to change just yet. You know, we've talked about burnout a million times.

[Diane]

Yeah.

[Dave Greenwood]

Some people, as you say, they operate in a certain mode for 10, 15 years. They have ADHD, they're in a demanding career, and it has finally caught up with them. You know, some people burn up, take a year or two to recover. So they either quit their job or they cut back or they take a leave of absence. They contact somebody. They may not be ready, mentally speaking, to do some of the work that is required.

[Diane]

Yeah.

[Dave Greenwood]

To get some agency back in their life.

[Diane]

Did you find it difficult to accept or adopt the belief that we can change? Was there ever a time when you didn't believe that? Either didn't believe it in general or didn't believe it for yourself and you learned to believe it or simply decided to believe it?

[Dave Greenwood]

No, because I don't think that was the brick to the side of the head that I got out of the book. I always knew that to some extent, we can change in certain ways. I've used this example before where I. I used to study martial arts years ago. I went to, like, a traditional American karate kickboxing school. But the owner of the dojo always liked to experiment in things, and he started Experimenting in what they call gracie jiu jitsu, which is ground fighting. So karate and kickboxing, obviously, are all standing up and what have you. So. But I always, because I was a skinny kid growing up, but I always used to tell people, oh my God, if anybody ever got me on the ground, I'd be dead, because I. I can't wrestle. I can't fight in the ground. Well, come to find out, when I started actually doing it in class, I was actually really good at it. And there was a phone call once where, when we were doing some of these classes where and my wife and I were going to together, and he called and my wife picked up the phone, she goes, is Dave coming to class tonight? Because he's my best ground fighter.

[Diane]

Wow.

[Dave Greenwood]

So, yeah, that is. And I'm not patting myself on the back by any means, but that just goes to show you that we actually do tell ourselves things that are untrue. I'm not going to say lie to ourselves. That's harsh. But we are pretty good at giving ourselves a narrative that can be disproven, if you will. Would you agree?

[Diane]

Absolutely. I recorded a solo episode a few weeks ago, Dave, about cognitive bias and the mind traps and the thought loops that we. We're all narrating our existence moment to moment in our heads. And there's either a big gap between how we perceive reality and the objective reality there is, or it might be a smaller gap. But my opinion, and I think this was reflected in the book as well, is that we are all experiencing our own reality. We all have our own individual reality. It's contextual, it's based on history, it's based on our belief system. Our biases, I refer to as our beliefs biases, and our blind spots. And everybody has a different set of those. And yet these two authors say that all problems are interpersonal. So it's like, hold on a second. And trauma does not exist. Hold on a second, full stop. I may be up in my head telling myself stories, and you might be up there in your head telling yourself stories, and everybody else may be doing the same thing. But what do you mean? All problems are interpersonal.

[Dave Greenwood]

So I actually 80% agree with that. Because in the world of ADHD and the busy professional and, you know, the kids at home and the family life and all the other things, aren't we worried about other people when we possibly are missing a deadline at work or we screwed something up for a client, or we blew off a volunteer opportunity when somebody was depending on us? Aren't we more concerned about what other people are thinking about are the way we operate, the way we whatever. Because that's what it comes down to. Like, oh, if I don't show up, they're gonna think I'm an asshole, you know, or then they can't depend on me and how's that gonna make me feel? And if, if I give the client the wrong thing, he's gonna be pissed off at me and now he's not gonna trust me anymore.

[Diane]

He's gonna think I'm an idiot. I'm gonna lose the account or at least lose his trust and respect.

[Dave Greenwood]

Well, my boss, if you work for somebody else, my boss is gonna put me on a performance improvement plan or he's not going to trust me anymore. She's not going to trust me anymore. So I would argue, unless you are on a deserted island and starving, the problem of having food obviously is an issue. But generally speaking, our day to day challenges are those with other people. Right.

[Diane]

One of the books that I use in my coaching practice and I have an exercise that I give clients is based on the work of Gretchen Rubin and the Four Tendencies.

[Dave Greenwood]

Right. Yeah, yeah.

[Diane]

We did a whole couple of episodes about this. And the reason why I think it's important is because the whole premise of that framework, the Four tendencies framework, is how we deal with expectations, our own and others. And the vast majority of people are obligers, which means they will let themselves down six ways from Sunday. But they are hard pressed to disappoint others. So their entire, their priorities, what they focus on, where their attention goes, is all about meeting the expectations of others.

[Dave Greenwood]

How many people with ADHD do you know that are divorced at least once?

[Diane]

Well, I've racked up a few. So I would say starting with that.

[Dave Greenwood]

That's not where I was going with that.

[Diane]

Okay. But I mean I'm. But yeah, yeah, actually quite a few. Yeah. Quite a few. Yep.

[Dave Greenwood]

Yeah. So that's that. That's another piece of that. Right. You wouldn't have that challenge with a marriage unless there was challenges with the relationship with that person. Right.

[Diane]

Well, I'm gonna take myself off the hot seat real quick. Like when I will just move it to the workplace. And I mean every. I'm very open about the fact that I'm in my third marriage, so. But I will tell you, many of us, I would say the majority change jobs far more frequently than is the norm. And whether that's quitting or getting fired, or if you happen to be self employed, the number of times we Change our niche. We reinvent, we rebrand, we burn it to the ground and start over.

[Dave Greenwood]

But we didn't want to serve a client because they were pain in the ass. Which is, yeah, I think healthy. I think that's healthy.

[Diane]

The number of people, the number agreed. The number of people with ADHD who are self employed who say, I want to help me start a business that I can run by myself because I don't want to manage people.

[Dave Greenwood]

Yeah. I left a very good job 20 years ago because of the relationship I had with the new person who I had to report to. And I loved my job, I love the work. It was a non profit. It was one of the most well known non profits in the world. I left because there was a, a shift in the org chart, so to speak, and a new person was brought in and the two of us did not get along. We banged heads. I would argue that person had no idea what he was doing, but that's me. And I left. And I've told people that if that didn't happen, I probably wouldn't, would still be there.

[Diane]

So, so bringing together the threads that we have been teasing out from this book and how you've learned from it and as you say, it stopped you in your tracks and the fact that, and I would agree as well that all problems are fundamentally interpersonal problems. The, the, in my terminology, everything is relationship. Everything is relationship. You have a relationship with your business, you have a relation, not to even mention human relationships with other people. But when we're self employed, we have a relationship with our business, we have a relationship with our customers, we have a relationship with our competitors. Even if it's just in our heads, it's a relationship. We have a relationship with vendors, we have a relationship with SaaS products that we use to run our company. If you don't think it's a real relationship, just pay attention. How many times you are screaming at your technology because it's failing to live up to your expectations in that moment.

[Dave Greenwood]

Yeah.

[Diane]

So do you think people with ADHD have more difficulty in relationships than neurotypicals do?

[Dave Greenwood]

Oh, absolutely. I, I firmly believe that not everyone. Let's not, let's not put it, it's.

[Diane]

Not in the diagnostic criteria.

[Dave Greenwood]

No. And some people are super good at relationships. I think that's where some of the strengths of ADHD come out. For example, some people are good in sales because they love to talk to other people. Okay. Some people aren't so good at sales because as Adler talks about, they have a fear of judgment. And they can't cold call because they're worried about damaging a relationship that doesn't even exist. Right. So. But I think, yeah, generally speaking, yeah, I think we have, we have a love hate relationship. With relationships. Yeah.

[Diane]

And with being human and with peopling, interacting with other humans. I mean, if you just take even those of us who've been moderately successful in our lives with adhd, we've still taken on some damage. We've still got scar tissue all the way back to childhood from feeling misunderstood, from being asked, why did you do that? Or what were you thinking? Or what's wrong with you?

[Dave Greenwood]

No, and I've always used the example of like the bad report cards. And I think once you are able to possibly get past that, that's probably not the right word. But I think, you know where I'm going. I'm not telling people to get over it. But when you finally are at peace with your report cards, like, I can laugh at my report cards now because I'm like, holy shit. They actually really did say the things they said, you know, but that, that is like you say, is it trauma? I don't know. But it's certainly something that follows us into adulthood. Right?

[Diane]

So it is sticky. And you know, I think especially things from early childhood, you know, the more years we are on the planet, the more tread we have on our tires, the more stuff there is in our heads. But when we're little, there's not much planted there.

[Dave Greenwood]

No.

[Diane]

And those seeds sink deep and start to form our self concept. And one of the things in this book that I absolutely agree with and it reminds me of so much of what I've studied, studied both in coaching and in psychotherapy is that learning to approve of ourselves no matter what, learning to offer other people unconditional acceptance no matter what, and staying in the present moment so we're not up in our heads thinking about what they. How they did us dirty in high school and we're never going to forgive them or, you know, I can't wait until, you know this. This couple's definitely getting divorced. And I am gonna rejoice when I see that happen because I can see it coming from a distance like that's not living in the moment. And just the basics of I accept me. It's almost like Sesame Street. I feel like we need, we need to go back.

[Dave Greenwood]

I know exactly, you know, we need, we need some muppets with us on this call. You know, think. I think. But you kind of took the words out of my mouth. Is that, that, that's where he says we are the most happy and fulfilled is living in the present. That is very difficult for some people because we do keep bringing up the past and for busy people, maybe we're worried about the future. So like, you know, is my business going to continue to grow? Is my career trajectory going to continue to go in the right direction? You know, can I pay my mortgage in six months? Those, those types of things, you know, it's very difficult for anybody remove the adhd. ADHD or not is, is to like live day to day in the present. It's super difficult. I struggle with it too.

[Diane]

I've been studying meditation for quite a few years and it definitely helps with that. But it's why, you know, I think I've, we've talked about this previously. My program used to start with self awareness. You know, there's tools and assessments to increase our self awareness and then it would move into tools for incre. Our self acceptance. And a couple years ago I realized I have to reverse the order, Dave, because I think if we can't just unconditionally accept ourselves, make the decision to do it and then learn how to do it and practice doing it, we won't have the courage to develop more self awareness. It will be scary to become more aware of who we really are if we don't choose to accept ourselves first, no matter what. It's like, why would I want. It's one of the reasons why so many people don't want to go to therapy so I can become even better equated with how screwed up I am. No, thank you. It's like, but if you can make the decision to accept yourself unconditionally, accept others unconditionally, and stay in the moment and not take responsibility for what other people are doing or even for what other people may or may not think of you. It sounds deceptively simple. It sounds like it should be easy. It's probably the hardest work any of us could ever attempt to do. ADHD or not, right?

[Dave Greenwood]

No, and we, we, we talked about in the book. I don't think I use this exact phrase, but you know, I've used this in other scenarios. Is this like I truly believe that assholes don't burned out, you know, they don't get burned out, you know, because an asshole really doesn't care what other people think of them. I'm not suggesting. Hey, all right. This is the asshole episode that's so don't mistake what I'm saying. But generally speaking, I think that people who really don't care generally what other people think and their opinions and what they think of them, I don't believe that they get to burnout like other people. So a lot of burnout is, as you know so well, is just that, you know, that piece of it, you know, we, we stay late because where we're afraid what our boss or client's going to think or our co workers or, you know, etc. We take on extra work because we don't want to disappoint our boss, you know, so we're afraid of what they might think or even if it's made up. Right.

[Diane]

And to your point that assholes don't burn out, narcissists don't suffer either. They make the people around them suffer, but because they lack empathy and they don't take responsibility for, you know, the effect of their behavior on others, they're blissfully free of stress and struggle while the people around them and imposter syndrome, the only people who have imposter syndrome are actually legit. The true imposters don't have imposter syndrome. Yeah, the ones that are shamelessly self promoting and don't really know what they're doing. They have no problem making outrageous claims that they can't back up because they don't have imposter syndrome.

[Dave Greenwood]

Yeah. But I might gently push back on that one because I learned public relations running my restaurant. I had a franchise in Boston. The, the company was notoriously bad at marketing and everything associated with marketing. So I went out and did a lot, public relations wise. I worked with the Boston Pops, I worked with rock stations, I worked with all these, you know, I built my business through pr. Never sent a PR classroom. And then I'll too long of a story. But I ended up at Special Olympics running public relations. And I worked from here to China. I always had in the back of my head because people worked at these PR agencies and these high rises in Boston and maybe they had a master's degree and all that stuff that somehow they were better than me. But I spent more time in front of TV cameras than any of them combined. And I got, I got that experience. I had a massive Rolodex of reporters and TV producers. Producers and everything else. And when I went out and opened up my PR firm, that became extremely valuable because CEOs tapped into me to get them on TV and in other places. So. But I always felt like I wasn't. Not always, but there were times where I felt like, oh well, I'm not working at that big PR firm that charges people $25,000 a month. And I'm not sitting in that, you know, glass office and all that stuff. So I would. I did struggle with that. I knew deep down that I had the experience that they did not have. But there was a little bit of imposter syndrome. So I would. I think I would gently disagree in some fashion to that.

[Diane]

Yeah, well, it's. It's like a. Yes. And. And I. And I think that we often have great conversations where we agree about 80% of the time. And the best parts of the conversation are the fringes because we, yeah. Respect and enjoy each other enough that we can disagree without feeling threatened. And I. I think it really speaks to the major premise of this book. I don't take responsibility for whether you like me or not. I don't take responsibility for whether you agree with me or not. If I can just say, well, I think my opinions are valid. I think your opinions are valid. We make each other think it doesn't have to be transactional. And I think that's where a lot of people get into serious trouble is. Is when. When we believe we're inferior or feel inferior, and then we think we have to behave in a way that makes us superior so that we can feel better. Everything's a competition. Everything's transactional. There has to be a winner and a loser. And if someone has to lose so that you can win, you're losing, too. You just don't realize it yet because eventually you alienate people. You don't have any close connections. You don't have community. You. You know, I mean, that's a very scary thing. And unfortunately.

[Dave Greenwood]

And I think you mentioned superiority. And I think maybe we saved the most controversial piece for last, is that. And you and I have talked about this before where I think a lot of people, maybe in the neurodivergent community, portray that. You don't understand me. You don't. You don't understand what I'm going through.

[Diane]

Yes.

[Dave Greenwood]

And they talk about, in the book, and, you know, Adler talks about this, is that sometimes we use that as leverage to distance ourselves from other people because we don't want any, even if it's minimal pressure applied to us. I'm struggling with this right now, and you need to not put any demands on me, so to speak. And I'm gonna tell you right now, I. That's controversial. There's people saying, oh, I'm gonna go at Dave right now on his Twitter account, or what have you go Ahead.

[Diane]

Coming for you, friend.

[Dave Greenwood]

They're coming for me. But I did the same thing. And you and I have talked about me taking care of an aging parent. Okay. And it is extremely stressful.

[Diane]

Yes.

[Dave Greenwood]

And that is the biggest brick to the side of the head that I got listening to this book is that I was doing that. I was subtly conveying a message to people around me that you don't understand what I'm going through right now.

[Diane]

But hold on. First of all, they don't.

[Dave Greenwood]

They don't.

[Diane]

They don't really.

[Dave Greenwood]

We were. But I was using it as. As a. As a. A leverage point to make sure people wouldn't apply too much pressure to me, for example, you know, so. And I think, you know, the more demands you put on me, the more my stress is going to boil over because I'm dealing with this other thing in my life.

[Diane]

Yeah. And I. You know what? I think we don't even have to have an aging parent or other life struggles. And coming back to an earlier part of this conversation, when we believe the fact that we have ADHD and the fact that it adds various struggles and complexities to our life, we are entitled to feel different, misunderstood, judged. And whether those things are true or not due to cognitive dissonance, if we believe I'm different and people don't understand me and I feel judged and I have to mask. And I can't really show people who I am because. And even when I try to explain it, they're never really going to get it. And. And so on and so on and so on, because I feel safer when I pull away from others. I feel safer when I feel like I have some control over what they expect of me by. In a way, by sort of putting up a wall and saying, hey, I'm maxed out. I would even say that. And you've written an entire book and interviewed hundreds of people on burnout. I would even say that might be a way of trying to mitigate burnout and at the same time have the unintended effect of isolating you from the very sources of support that could. Could help that. Burnout.

[Dave Greenwood]

That's part of the equation. I think we shut. We shut people out by saying, you don't. You don't understand what I'm going through.

[Diane]

Yeah.

[Dave Greenwood]

It doesn't have to be that exact word, but, you know, we see this on social media.

[Diane]

Yeah.

[Dave Greenwood]

All the time. Where people who get on these rants or these influences. I'm putting my quotes up, you know, where that's kind of their Shtick.

[Diane]

Right. So you don't understand me. And yet, and especially now, I mean, it's undeniable that a lot of people in the world are hurting right now.

[Dave Greenwood]

Yeah.

[Diane]

And a lot of people are scared and overwhelmed and having a great deal of trouble living in the now and having a great deal of trouble giving other humans unconditional acceptance. But if they wanted to try, if they said, okay, I've been listening to these two yammer on for 45 minutes plus I'm not going to read the frickin book. But I, I will, I'm will to experiment with this concept of having the courage to be disliked because of the freedom. That is the promise. That is the promise. The freedom, the peace of mind, that is the promise of making these changes. Where would you say people could start if they wanted to just start to experiment with this? They're not ready to make the commitment and get the secret decoder ring and the handshake and all that. But like I'd like to, I like to experiment with this. This. I'm curious.

[Dave Greenwood]

I think they need to get the book and I would highly suggest the audiobook because the book is constructed as a dialogue between the philosopher and a very skeptical young student.

[Diane]

So it's over like five nights, right? Five conversations.

[Dave Greenwood]

And yeah, I don't think you get that in the book. But the, the people who narrated the book do an extremely good job with the, the emotions involved in the, the kid thinks everything the guy says is controversial. That's, you know, so there's doubt sewn through the entire book on purpose, which.

[Diane]

Gives you permission as the listener or the reader to be skeptical and to have doubt.

[Dave Greenwood]

Yeah, but if, but if you're open with yourself. And again, that's that self awareness perception piece which we know is absolutely critical to making any change or understanding why we do things and why we don't do things. I think you keep an open mind, you listen to the book, you agree with what you want, you take the lessons sewn through the book and disagree where you feel necessary. Just like somebody listening to this, you.

[Diane]

Know, that sounds so healthy, Dave.

[Dave Greenwood]

I, I think it's, you know, maybe they call us a whack job or I don't know. But I actually think if you let your guard down a little bit and listen to the book, you might, you might say, you know what? I do that, you know, and I.

[Diane]

Think sometimes we do need to be a little gobsmacked. Sometimes we do need to, as you call it, take a brick to the side of the head. Because oftentimes when we're struggling, ADHD or no, we are placing the problem outside of us and feeling like a victim of our circumstances. And oftentimes that's not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth because we don't see ourselves in the equation. So. And we can't change the things that are outside of our control. So, yeah, I think, I think it's worth a shot if what you're after is peace of mind and the ability to get along better with others. Manage your ADHD better. Manage your emotional dysregulation better. Manage your rejection sensitivity better.

[Dave Greenwood]

Yeah.

[Diane]

And it's also. It's a, it's not a self help book, but it does help you because it's, it's created in a way that's almost like a work of fiction but with a fuck ton of wisdom wrapped in the storytelling.

[Dave Greenwood]

No. And I'll end it with this. Is there, There is one part in the book when you talk about emotional regulation about. There's a piece of the book where they discuss anger.

[Diane]

Yeah.

[Dave Greenwood]

And his argument. Okay, again, this is probably the. Another huge controversy.

[Diane]

Brace yourself for the controversy.

[Dave Greenwood]

Brace yourself. Is we use anger, ADHD or not. Let's just make sure we understand that we use anger as a way to control others. There is a way to control our anger. So again, I'll. I'll drop that bomb.

[Diane]

I think we have to. I think that has to be a moment. Yeah. Because that's. Yeah. And if that doesn't make you curious to expose yourself to this book, I don't know what would because that should get you thinking. And you wouldn't be listening to podcasts like this or Dave's very popular Overcoming Distractions podcast and book if you are not interested in being the best human you could be. So check it out. Check Dave out. Check his two books out, his podcast, and I will link to all of them right where you expect in the show. Notes. Thank you, friend.

[Dave Greenwood]

Thank you for having me. Foreign.

[Podcast Host Intro/Outro]

If the lessons in this episode are timely for you, there are three ways that you can take your next step. Buy and listen to the book the Courage to Be Disliked by Kashimi and Koga. Listen to the linked episodes about rejection, sensitivity, cognitive bias and burnout. Or book a free consultation for ADHD coaching with either Dave or Diane. We trust that you know which of these steps is the right one for you and the links are right where you expect them to be in the show.

[Diane]

Notes.

[Dave Greenwood]

Sam.