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AdTechGod Pod
Ep. 128 The Long Game: Amanda DeVito of Butler/Till on Growth, Grit, and Modern Agency Survival
00:31:50
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- [00:01]
A
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- [00:57]
B
and participate in McDonald's while supplies last. Welcome to the AdTech God Pod, your window into the world of advertising technology and the people behind it. I'm your host at Tech God. Welcome to the ADTech Godpod, where we speak to the agency leaders of our industry. More importantly, the female agency leaders of our industry. Today's guest is Amanda DeVito, the CMO at Butler Till. She's been with Butler till for nearly 15 years and really climbed the ranks from Director of Strategy to CMO today. I usually go through a brief background, but at 15 years at a company, I'm really more interested in understanding how she got to where she is today, what it took for her to climb and lead the marketing org at Butler Till and truly just want to get to know her as a person and what they're doing differently at the company. Amanda, thank you so much for joining me today. Welcome to the Itchpod.
- [01:48]
A
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. What a pleasure to be here.
- [01:51]
B
Thank you. And I feel like we've had this scheduled out for a few weeks now, and I saw some of your videos from Architecture Live. So thank you. Thank you for just being such a big supporter of what we're building here at Market.
- [02:03]
A
Love it. Anything with the word market in it, I tend to gravitate towards. It might be the marketing side of my brain, but I can't help myself.
- [02:10]
B
I mean, it's even in your title, Amanda.
- [02:12]
A
It's even in my title. Maybe that's what it is.
- [02:15]
B
How do we do this?
- [02:16]
A
I've been incepted.
- [02:17]
B
That's amazing, Amanda. I wanted to Ask you. I'm familiar with Butler Till. I'm familiar with your team. I've spoken to quite a few people at the company, and you've really taken a really strong presence in market, both as just having employees that are advocates for what you guys are building. They're very outspoken, they're very public, and I love companies that do that. I think lifting up the awareness of your team is so important in building a company. But I'd love to kind of go back to the beginning and understand who you are, man, as a person. Like how you got into the industry and what led you to being CMO today.
- [02:50]
A
Well, that's a big question, which I love. So, you know, honestly, 15 years ago, so I've been on the agency side, then I was in a SaaS, then I was in analytics. And I've always loved marketing. Like, I remember wanting to see the super bowl ads more than the game from when I was a tiny tot. It's just I've always loved marketing, and I think the reason I've always loved it is cause I've always loved psychology. I've always loved human behavior. And our world is full of human behavior and how we act and how we behave and why do we behave this way and then why do we behave that way? And so we're never a bored cohort. We can never quite figure us out at times. And I think that's what's always kept me so excited around marketing. It's always evolving and changing. And so 15 years ago, I remember wanting to kind of get back into the marketing world. But more importantly, I really wanted to work for a very dynamic female leader. And so I called Sue Butler Butler Till. And I said, I really want to work for a really awesome dynamic female leader. I think you're it. And she goes, okay. And I've known her for my entire career. And she goes, okay, why don't you put together a job description? And I said, okay. And I put together a job description. And she goes, okay, I love it. Let's do it. And honestly, I mean, it's. I think I followed the purpose and my passion for the work and then this knowledge of wanting to be around a really different type of leadership style. And I knew she had it, and I knew I could grow from that. And then I stayed here because I continued to want to also be surrounded by another amazing, dynamic woman, which is our current CEO. And then I'm surrounded by an amazing, dynamic fully women bored. And I'm also by amazing men that love being in this place and are just great at not only being alongside us, but picking us up when we need it and vice versa. So culturally I've never been in a place like this and it's honestly why I've stayed for as long as I have. Plus I keep getting challenged. The marketplace keeps shifting and being the type of model and this independent agile flow that we just continue to double down on is perfect timing for this AI agentic change world that we're in. So I'm still here. I keep getting challenged and I keep being surrounded by brilliant people who just keep making me smarter. What a gift.
- [05:35]
B
It's funny because you mentioned culture and that comes up a lot in a lot of the podcasts, especially with people who've been at companies for a long period of time meeting more than five years, because I think the general tenure is like three and they burn out and they move somewhere else. And usually that comes from like lack of growth, which obviously you've, you've had lack of support and just like a bad culture or culture that's just not a fit, doesn't have to be bad, but just like a not good culture. But I think what's more impressive really is like you, you mentioned so many women that are involved with Butler Till and as you know, weirdly enough, the ad tech God, a majority of technology and advertising seems to be male dominant. And it's just, it is what it is. But I, I think the hardest part is how the higher level, the, the C title, the executives are way skewed towards males than females. So like maybe at the entry level or mid level management you find a more healthy balance, but at a senior level it's, it's really majority male. When you look around the, the tech and advertising industry, how do you think that that gives you guys a different perspective on how to work with clients, how to work with each other and how do you find that as like a strength in markets so that people listening could, you know, consider changing the way their org chart looks?
- [06:51]
A
Yeah, well, so listen, we could go a whole podcast on the amount of research that shows really strong growth arenas are driven by diverse leadership and that diversity is still in our arena, women owned or women dynamics. And we'll just use gender because we're talking about Butler Till and I think we believe in that. We've seen it. We continue to be on a growth trajectory. Obviously. Yes, we have a lot of C suite men and I've always said any woman in this business, we keep kind of still hearing the vernacular of like, let's empower them. Empower them. We don't, we don't need empowerment. We feel deeply empowered. We need access. So I love the fact of, I don't see it as necessarily a negative that we have a lot of men in our industry that are kind of at the top. What is the negative aspect is if they don't allow access for generational gender dynamics and race dynamics, all of that will matter. And I think that, that we fundamentally believe in that and we've always believed in it. And then on top of it. Okay, well, what's the proof? Right? You just asked what's really in it for me? We keep driving outcomes. We know. And I think also our, our structure, right? We're women owned, we're employee owned, we're independent, we're a B corp. Like, that structure is an anomaly in so many ways. That structure, it means that especially even the employee owned piece, that essentially means that our outcomes and, and we're only successful if our clients are successful. So we are not trying to make money because we've got a better jet or a cooler yacht. Like, we're doing it because we're driving outcomes for our clients. And if we aren't driving outcomes for our clients, we become irrelevant. And we don't want to be irrelevant. We want to continue to push. And we think the model for the modern agency is that, that, that, that kind of mindset, not just from a cultural diverse standpoint, but also because if you allow those teams to thrive and you give them access and you do allow them to empower and have all these decision frameworks, no matter what title, which you just talked about it earlier, you said, oh, all your people are out and they're talking like, yep, go for it. I don't need to own, I don't need. Even as cmo, I don't need to own all of that. Our chief Strett, he doesn't need to own all of that. We want our people to own the language and what we're doing for our clients. That's empowerment and access. And that to me is what makes us massively different.
- [09:28]
B
Yeah, you guys are, you guys are creating evangelists internally, completely.
- [09:33]
A
I. With 450 people. What a, what a miss. If we don't create evangelists, that's how
- [09:40]
B
we feel at market tech or too. Like, we're not 450 people. Hopefully maybe one day. But the idea is like, we all, we all have a presence. So everyone from the top down, left, right, like, everyone has a right to post their opinion, to share Takes. Even if it's a little controversial, go for it. Don't burn down a house, but go for it. Like you can go ahead and post your thoughts because it does just create so much more awareness, not just for themselves and their personalities, which is important, but for the company. People are hearing about architecture from my posts or other people's posts within the company. I think it greatly benefits everyone by doing so.
- [10:14]
A
Absolutely. And I think when you create this environment of people that openly and in a very psychologically safe space can challenge you, it gets lonelier the higher you ascend in your career is the reality. I want to surround myself with people that are going to challenge me. A lot of times I get challenged by our people that don't have the title that I have. They come into my office and they go, hey, I saw. I think we should do this different. I'm like, great, tell me, like, tell me more. Because if I can curate curiosity and passion and excitement for what we're doing, then the byproduct is that that's how they're working on our clients business. That's how they're engaging with one another and collaborating with one another and that's how they're engaging with our partners, which is huge. You cannot go at this alone. With the complexity of our ecosystem, you cannot go at it alone. You need amazing partners. You need. There's no way, there's no way the way that our partners are in it compared to the way that we're in it. It's just, it's all gonna rise if we can work really collaborative together. And that counts also as your employee group. Quick pause. This might help you getting into gardening. TikTok has simple tips that actually work. Planting, pruning, fixing common problems. Real advice from real gardeners. Download TikTok now.
- [11:44]
B
Can you touch up on that? Because with how much the industry is changing and I. I don't mean just the agency model, but the technology as it relates to it. The way maybe some brands are in housing, even just the tools that they have available to them. There is a lot of empowerment, but there also needs to be a lot of collaboration and transparency with how things work. How do you feel when you're dealing with your clients in particular and you sit down in whatever a zoom call or in person, how do you feel that conversation goes back and forth to exchange ideas and thoughts. Is it. Some agencies will pitch and say this is what we want to do for you. Other ones sit down and they actually spend the time and the thoughtfulness to understand the brand image, their KPIs and targets and what they're trying to achieve, and they work more collaboratively. And I'm just curious how you guys are working with your clients.
- [12:36]
A
You know, I remember I've been doing this so long. I won't tell you how long I've been doing this. I've been doing this so long that I remember being in meetings with clients where, let's say it's an hour meeting. For 55 minutes, you'd be talking about the brand and the creative aspect of it, and for five minutes, you'd be talking about the media. And I remember thinking, gosh, the media is kind of a big portion of it. Now what I'm seeing is that so much of the conversation is, is about media and what's attached to media. Product, tech, analytics, predictive AI. Like, it's. It's so kind of connected in so many ways. And what I noticed, at least it feels that there's even more rightful pressure, that a lot of our clients are looking to media agencies to really be almost the center of the strategy, to help them understand all the chaos that's around them and the complexity that's around them. So I think if you're in a media organization today, you are absolutely supposed to act as a business steward. You know, you. You have to understand the language of business. You have to understand the language of your client's business. And it has to go beyond media. You know, I can't tell you how many times I would imagine a lot of folks don't ask, can I see the client's marketing plan? What do you have? Can I look at your PR plan? Can I look at your creative? We're always asking for all of that. Even though our swim lane might be media, our swim lane for all of us is moving their business forward. And what we've found is that when we're really collaborative and transparent and we bring partners alongside and we say, hey, listen, we think you'd be better if you're in this room with us talking about this. Everybody winds up moving things forward, usually faster, because a lot of times you're getting in alignment, you're making sure you're actually driving the right outcomes, and that's incredibly important. So for us, we've always sort of acted that way, and maybe because we're independent and we've always sort of had to, but now I feel like that's the way it's been so normalized, that that's how you should be acting. But for us, it's always Been in our DNA and you asked earlier. I think you're learning from clients like, they eat, sleep, and drink their brand and their. And who they are. We can always try to do that. But our job is to eat, sleep, and drink the media portion. When those two things combine, it's better for everybody. And then you bring in your creative discipline or your PR discipline. You just can't go at it alone. And I think the collaborative, transparent nature of all these people working together is so much more effective than someone going, I'm going to own this and I'm going to plow through without taking into account looking left and right and looking at my. My colleagues and my cohorts and my collaborators and say, hey, what do you think about this? And pressure test this with me. It just doesn't make sense to me anymore.
- [15:38]
B
One thing that. Whether there's a heavy media focus or creative focus, the. The art of storytelling for me, I think, is, like, so powerful. And if you don't understand the importance of storytelling and what piece of that storytelling media plays in that role, like, media plays an important role in the storytelling of how you're reaching the audience, that accurate audience that you want to achieve. But there's a lot that leads up to it, and there's a lot that follows that aspect. There seems to be a big disconnect. And I would think that if you don't have that type of open, collaborative environment to share. What are you doing on press? What are you doing on search? What are you doing on creative? What's the overall storyline that you're trying to push? What's your outcome that you're looking to achieve? You can't just say, here's media. Like, here you go. You should go buy on Paramount. We think that's a great channel for you to be on. Like, there needs to be, like, a total understanding of the. The full aspect of what it means to build a brand. And I love that you guys lean in heavily on the media aspect.
- [16:40]
A
Well, you know, you. You bring up a great point, because I think storytelling was always sort of dedicated to the creative side of our house. But look at the way data has created storytelling and has shifted the way that we've approached things. So you can leverage data from a storytelling standpoint. I mean, right? TV used to be the only way that you could really compel this narrative of emotional connection. And now you just. You can't. You have to follow what the consumers are doing. And the consumers, you know, within five seconds are on TikTok, on Reels, searching all, all, almost simultaneously, half the time. And how do you tell a story across that? How do you, how do you tell a really compelling story when the consumer is owning their own journey versus us telling them, well, first you have to do this, then you have to do that, but it just doesn't work that way anymore. And I don't know how, I don't know how you can do that without being really collaborative with all the right players at the table. And, and clients are charging us with figuring that out. They don't have the time to corral all these partners and really be the tip of the sphere. They actually, I think, are expecting their agency roster and very few have one agency in this day and age. But they're usually expecting their agency roster to really become this cohesive strategic unit to help inform, hey, where do you think I should be going? Not only think about what I have to do, what's right here, but tell me how am I going to become and stay relevant in the next three years? And can you, can you worry about that now and that, that's the job. We can't, you know, we can't worry about quarter one, quarter two. We have to worry about quarter one, quarter two and 20, 30.
- [18:31]
B
It's incredible. And we could probably talk about short term outcomes versus long term outcomes because I do think many, and I use general terms because I've talked to so many people, there's such a heavy focus on hitting quarterly and annual targets that they tend to forget about the importance of building a brand and what that brand means, even if that means less profitability, short term, even if that means a little bit of pain to stay consistent to what your brand has built over time. If the focus is entirely these short term gains and hitting these quarterly earnings, which companies do you see those companies eventually hurt? We saw it with Nike and their strategy, right. They focused away. It was all direct response, just go buy a shoe, go buy shoe. And guess what happened? They struggled. And now they've gone back to like, no, Nike is a lifestyle. And the reason why you wear Nike is because it's important and because you're an athlete and you want to stay healthy and whatever else. And they, they shifted back to the narrative, which is Nike's cool and so are sports. But they lost that narrative over time because they were focused on short term. So I think a lot of people miss that.
- [19:35]
A
Yeah. And know thyself, like know thyself, know thyself brand.
- [19:40]
B
Yes, totally. So you, you deal with a lot of clients. You're the CMO Butler till. Where do you see things heading in the next 12 to 18 months? Amanda, I'm curious. What do you think is going to play the biggest role?
- [19:51]
A
Let's ask Claude.
- [19:52]
B
Oh my gosh. I know. Podcast over.
- [19:55]
A
There you go.
- [19:56]
B
Ask Claude. We're done.
- [19:57]
A
Podcast over. You know, I think in the next 12 to 18 months, Agentic is, is going to continue to be part of every conversation. I think you actually mentioned. And I think we're going to go even back to. I don't know if I'd say back to brand, but I think you're going to realize how important brand still is. I. From a media standpoint, it's going to be. Are we measuring. Yes, we can measure these things. Should we. How do we, how do we become more predictive, justify every spend? You know, there's going to continue to be so much more pressure on any agency. It's just, it's just going to be the case. There's, I think, what also is happening. If I think of the next 12 to 18 months, you are still going to have agencies and companies that almost are rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic instead of really thinking through what do we have to disrupt, how do we disrupt ourselves now to prepare for the future? Because if we're not thinking about that and you're just sort of in this. Me too. Adoption versus actually building and testing and trying to. I don't think you're going to last too much longer in the future. You know, those, those used to be, well, maybe nice to haves. I think that kind of agility and adaptability are going to become norm and because it's going to get more chaotic and more confusing. And so it's going to be our job to really understand it and make sure that we're bringing clients along and making sure that we're getting ahead of any headwinds and knowing that they're going to get way more pressure to justify all the things that they're doing. And that's going to put more pressure on us.
- [21:48]
B
It's funny, if you look at the amount of change we've had, let's just say the last five years, we saw a massive rise of streaming television. We saw outcomes becoming more important and tied to television. We've seen kind of both the rise and a little bit of the decline on social, because there are some numbers across some social platforms that are declining and whether that is the right medium or not. And then you're looking at AI and the impact that does in programmatic buying and creative generation and whatever media planning and everything that we do. And that's just like a short five year window. It's not even going back to where everybody was just buying print and radio like this. In five years, our entire industry has been flipped upside down. And it's almost like if you're sitting in a world where you're not considering a gen take and AI solutions for your company, you better start now. Probably not a good idea to delay it.
- [22:41]
A
You better, you better start now. And I think, listen, AI, AI really is everywhere. I mean even what not so long ago we said it's, it's literally everywhere and there's no, there's no getting around it. I, we've, I think if you. What I love about our space, you can't be in our space and not get excited about the future because our space changes so incredibly fast. So I love the conversations around AI. I love that we're even challenging ourselves to go, is this going to replace marketers? Is this like ask these questions? Let's, let's just talk through it. It's, what is the opportunity? Sit on the sidelines and just sort of watch it go by. That's never been our industry. Our industry has always been the ones that I think, and we still do this. I think we really lean in and we go, wait, we want to learn more. What could this mean for us? What does this look like? And especially if you're a media agency and you're not placing your dollars. These are not my dollars I'm placing. We better know ideally what this is going to do and how it's going to help and for us, AI to be able to get better understanding of audiences. I mean, look at like what we've been doing with Swim. I mean Swim's got this great self curate platform that essentially can get a better understanding of audiences before we even bid. Like this is so, this stuff's so exciting to me and I think, I think marketers love being in marketing because it's always shifting underneath our feet. I think the big thing is still being really smart strategically to know where to make your bets. And that's so the decision making, you know, AI is going to really unveil your good strategies and it's also going to really unveil your really weak strategies faster.
- [24:39]
B
And you know, you, you touch up on something that, you know, being a strategist, understanding the marketing, really the marketing funnel and the flow, the technology, the solutions, I think is all obviously very, very important. But I think another thing is that in marketing in particular, like, it still remains the same sort of funnel. Like you still look at, like, let's create some brand awareness and then let's get them all the way back to be committed and coming back and buying again. And so we can target them differently. It's just the tools that we have are there. I love that aspect because I think as when non marketers look at the funnel, they think, I'm just going to buy a bunch of Instagram ads and I'm going to hope they buy it and then you find out that it's a fake product sold out of some foreign place that never gets delivered. But in reality, like, you want to build an actual brand, like, you have to play the full spectrum of marketing. Like you, you have to build a brand, build a love. And I think that's one thing that I think influencer marketing is doing, especially with younger generations, is that my children, my friends, kids, they don't hear about a product from a pre roll ad. They hear a product because Johnny or Susie says, this is the best hoodie they've ever bought from Australia. And suddenly you're waiting three months to get this hoodie shipped to you. Because this hoodie went viral and this is like a day in my life. Yeah, I'm like, this is just a hoodie. Who cares? So I think also understanding, like the importance of brand building and association continues to be an important layer of what it is to build a brand.
- [26:06]
A
Oh, completely. I mean, I remember a time where when you would talk about influencers, you, you almost had to like in bright lights, say, this is an ad. Just so you know, like, they're selling you something now. Consumers, hey, I'm really okay with you presenting things to me that you think I might want to buy or lean into because hopefully by the time it got in front of me, with all of my digital footprint, you know that it's relevant and it makes total sense. Right. So we know consumers love to consume. We've never, I've always argued, we've never actually been annoyed with any sort of ad. What we have been annoyed is noise that doesn't make sense and is not relevant to me. If you can present somebody with something that's like, yep, you get me. I mean, I can't even begin to tell you there was a, there was a Christmas, I mean, early Netflix days that I remember opening up presents and I turned to my family and I said, netflix gets me more than you do when it comes to presence. My point in that was to say Netflix was offering Up. Like, I think you'll like this. I think you'll like that. I'm like, yes, because you get me. Like, why do you get me? So as long I'm okay with that. As long as it's relevant. And when things aren't relevant, we're gonna. We're gonna be annoyed and we're gonna ignore it. But so influencer to me is, sure, let's. Anyone that's. That they get me. I understand that It's. It's incredibly powerful. And because consumers are mediums unto their. Unto themselves, even regardless of if they're in the influencer category, they're. They're becoming a brand. I mean, if you look at TikTok and you just look at the comments and you think that is so witty or that is so cool. These people are influencers. I'm gonna. They're just people that are engaging with something and connecting in ways. I can't believe I'm on a. I think I'm on a wait list to buy the orangutan from Ikea because of Punch the Monkey. I mean, I got right. Like, things we still love. We still love that type of marketing and that. Like things that we get drawn to and excited about and we love especially when we're all collectively excited about the thing. I think we still love that. I think community and connection is where social was born and bred, and I think we still really love that. I think it's in our DNA to. To feel connected with one another and social and influencer. All that is still incredibly important because we love connection.
- [28:43]
B
I mean, if you. If you think about just some of the products that have gone viral over the last 12 months or maybe 18 months. We have Stanley water bottles.
- [28:52]
A
Yep.
- [28:52]
B
Do you remember that craze where it's like you couldn't even find one, but you got to go find one somewhere. Up reselling. You have Labubus, those little things. That was wild.
- [29:01]
A
Yeah.
- [29:02]
B
I hear now is needles, which are basically little jelly things that you play within your hand, almost like a fidget toy. And you think about how that spreads. It's truly. Somebody sparked an interest. Somebody loved it. The purchasing happened. Everybody started sharing through various channels. Social or just through their own community chats or whatever. And now suddenly they can't even catch up to manufacturing. And it just shows you the power of. Of influence. It shows you the reach that you get. And I. I want to loop this back because this is why it's so important for companies to have those evangelists that you have one person speaks well about Butler Till, all of a sudden 5 speak well and then 30 speak well and then 200 speak well. And then eventually you're turning down business because you're like, hey, we don't even have the bandwidth for this many clients. And that's the goal with market. And I think that should be a goal at all companies.
- [29:52]
A
Absolutely. Absolutely. Especially when you trust your people, because your people are owners and you trust them and you feel. And you feel like they could evangelize regardless of title. And I think that's a pretty special, unique thing still in this day and age. And it's. You asked earlier, right. How long. And that's really why I've been here for as long as I have, because my product, which, yes, we have product, but still my overarching product, are still my people.
- [30:19]
B
Amanda, thank you so much and thank you to Butler Till for having you here. Love this chat. Thank you.
- [30:24]
A
Save. Appreciate you.
- [30:26]
B
Of course, I appreciate you too. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the AdTech Godpod, a podcast for the people about the people. Stay connected with me for more insights, trends and interviews in the realm of ad tech. Don't miss out on the latest updates. So follow me on X Instagram and connect with me on LinkedIn. Don't forget ATG Slack community has insights, networking opportunities and jobs. Keep the conversation going and stay at the forefront of adtech innovation.