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- [00:01]
Commercial Announcer
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- [00:30]
AdTech God (Host)
Welcome to the AdTech Godpod, your window into the world of advertising technology and the people behind it. I'm your host, AdTech God. Welcome to the AdTech Godpod, where I speak with the strategic minds of our industry. Today's guest is Mike Petrella, the Managing Director of Strategic Management at Connective Media by United Airlines. Mike has been with United Airlines for more than two years, and before that held leadership roles at companies like Caro, Yahoo, aol, and advertising dot com. His career reflects deep experience in the intersection of media technology and advertising. I'm definitely familiar with Mike. I've watched the transformation of United's media offering over the past year. I'm really excited to dig into Connective Media and just hear about what they have planned for the future. Mike, thank you for joining me today.
- [01:22]
Mike Petrella
Pleasure to be here.
- [01:23]
AdTech God (Host)
Yeah, thank you for being here. I remember you launching Connective Media. I actually remember you joining Connected Media and seeing it on LinkedIn. I'm sure a lot has changed since you've joined.
- [01:34]
Mike Petrella
It has. I mean, first and foremost, I can actually say what I'm doing, right? It was when I first joined, we had yet to announce the fact that United was entering this space. Connected Media name, you know, wasn't a public name. So the fact that now we could talk about all the great things that we're doing and. And really how it impacts the airline. And it's exciting, right? And to work for a brand like United Airlines, there's a smile on my face that you can't see, but I love working for a premium brand with this power and then just bringing innovation to our travelers.
- [02:07]
AdTech God (Host)
I am looking forward to hearing about it. I was actually browsing your site yesterday and the day before just to prepare for the call. I did not know about the full offerings. I knew of some of them, but not all of them. So I'd love to dig into it later, I guess, before we kick things off. I'd love to hear a little bit about you and how you got to where you are today. Working at United Airlines. Having worked at Yahoo, aol, you probably have a great background and great understanding of the evolution of the space. So maybe if you want to take it back, maybe a quick summary of how you got to where you are today and where you think things are going after that.
- [02:43]
Mike Petrella
Networking has really been the core of my success.
- [02:47]
Interviewer/Host (AdTech God)
Right.
- [02:48]
Mike Petrella
And the ability to build relationships has helped me navigate, you know, what I would call many a time, rough corporate waters. So the way I even got into ad tech was I was playing in a band and my drummer's best friend was John Ferber. Came to band practice one day in a suit and tie and John had asked me, you know, John was there and he asked me like, why you in a suit and tie? And I said, well, I internship with the fda. You know, I was a British literature major in college, so not the most progressive major. But he's like, you know what, you're one of the more responsible ones of the friend group. Come join me and my brother. We're going to start a company. And that was my interview into what was techno surf and then turned it to advertising.com. i won't take you through the full 23 years. However, for those of you familiar with the way AOL and Yahoo and even Verizon worked, you know, we went through significant leadership changes over my 23 years there. And my ability to forge partnerships with my peers, with my leaders and to really think of myself as part of something bigger helped me navigate in times where we had significant leadership change.
- [03:52]
Interviewer/Host (AdTech God)
Right.
- [03:53]
Mike Petrella
Many case, I think I had seven bosses over a five year stretch. We were doing layoffs on an annual and sometimes like semi annual basis. And I joked that I was 22 for 23 in terms of layoffs. And besides working hard, it was the ability for me to form those partnerships and explain that, you know, I'm here to support, I'm here to help. And I know that if I did my job, the organization would benefit. And that's helped me, you know, just kind of navigate through, you know, unfortunately impacted many folks. But the path to United actually came through advertising.com. there's a gentleman named James Rothwell. He was an account executive in the UK in 2001. I was an account executive in the US at that time. We'd remained close throughout our careers. And in 2022, you know, we were talking about how each of us were looking for new opportunities. He was to be looking for something, you know, as, as he was exiting Freewheel. I was at a startup where I wasn't the Right person for the role. So we made it, you know, made it a point to keep one another abreast of any opportunities. He came to me in May of 23 and said there's an opportunity for, you know, a partnerships role, you know, at what could become a commerce media network if I was interested. He made the introduction to who? My now boss, Richard Nunn, who had just taken over as CEO of Mileage Plus. Richard and I spoke and you know, four months post, first conversation was August 14, 2023 and I was the managing director of strategic partnerships for Mileage Plus.
- [05:29]
AdTech God (Host)
So you started building it from scratch. Right. This did not exist prior to you joining.
- [05:34]
Mike Petrella
We did complete white piece of paper.
- [05:36]
Interviewer/Host (AdTech God)
Right.
- [05:36]
Mike Petrella
And it was exciting that that was the allure that brought me in.
- [05:40]
Interviewer/Host (AdTech God)
Right.
- [05:40]
Mike Petrella
Build from scratch. I went to or@advertising.com, we built from scratch. I was at a startup where I was trying to build and you know, again, not the right person for that role. And then it's connective or with Mileage plus and you know, connected media, it was the ability to put together what we believed was the proper foundation to scale and build the commerce media network.
- [06:03]
AdTech God (Host)
So when you say commerce media network, this is, I think, something that I wasn't familiar with. I don't know if the listeners are. So my assumption was that your network was really built off of the screens in the plane only. But when I looked at your website, I realized it was omnichannel. It was the mobile apps, it was the websites, it was everything possible. Can you just kind of run through at a high level what connected media offers today, what the properties are? Because for me, I really did just think it was the screens on the plane and not necessarily all the other touch points that a traveler would be using across the network.
- [06:41]
Mike Petrella
Yeah, we talk about enriching traveler journeys.
- [06:44]
Interviewer/Host (AdTech God)
Right.
- [06:44]
Mike Petrella
And I think it's important to, to define the journey. I mean, connective.
- [06:48]
Interviewer/Host (AdTech God)
Right.
- [06:49]
Mike Petrella
We're the first traveler media network and we're helping transform how brands engage with, you know, consumers across that journey. And far more than just a media platform like we are shaping the future of traveler commerce. We help brands connect with travelers in ways they enrich their journeys and they drive real business outcomes.
- [07:07]
Interviewer/Host (AdTech God)
Right.
- [07:08]
Mike Petrella
And to your point, it's an omnichannel platform that gives advertisers access to high value audiences of 174 million travelers annually and an even richer insights into 63 million mileage plus members. You know, from booking to gate to in flight and even beyond the journey, we deliver very meaningful personalized experiences. 5 plus hours of average time spent researching trips. We talk about an hour and a half to two hours of airport dwell time. And perhaps the savant traveler is less in the airport, like me, but, you know, our average flight time is three and a half hours. And then when we think about like the United Travelers, you know, it's a very, very broad and rich demographic. But, you know, 25% of our travelers have a household income of above 250,000. So when we think about that, like, that's compared to 7% on national average. The reason I'm saying these things, it's not reading from like a fact sheet or whatever. Like, we have an incredibly valuable audience. We have a tech stack that's designed to bring scale, reach, connectivity, personalization and measurement to advertisers. And we want to be innovative in terms of what we're offering to our customers. And that's the build part that I love.
- [08:21]
Interviewer/Host (AdTech God)
Right.
- [08:21]
Mike Petrella
We've scaled rapidly. You've seen what we're doing, you know, in the news. And so it's taking the elements of what ad tech was and modernizing them into a way just to be more efficient and effective.
- [08:37]
AdTech God (Host)
Okay, so you mentioned business travelers, household income. The audience is engaged and there's a long dwell time when they're working with yourself. Sitting in an airport or on the flight. How is that different than other audiences out there? I would assume that the amount of time that you have available to reach your users is significantly greater than an average site or network. Do you find that the advertisers agencies are seeing a huge value in this? And what type of brands in particular would actually spend with someone like United or Connected Media?
- [09:11]
Mike Petrella
I mean, quite honestly, there's a use case for every single person on the plane.
- [09:15]
Interviewer/Host (AdTech God)
Right.
- [09:15]
Mike Petrella
And that's the, the greatest part about this. When we launched, we know that we index very highly against the affluent individual. So brands like Bottega, Veneta, Macallan and others, you know, were, were part of our launch partners. And we do find, I guess that the, I don't want to call it the difference, but the traveler journey encompasses many different attitudes, many different atmospheres. Right. You have the inspiration, the planning, and in that time it's, you know, looking@our, our.com and our app and even digital hemispheres. Right. We took the magazine off the plane and we've created a digital entity that was now far beyond just print and content. Right. This is content that could be translated on a personalized basis. You think about commerce opportunities. So in addition to just Knowing like one of the parts of hemispheres is called three perfect days. And it's a three day agenda based on location. And by the end of this year, we'll have a three perfect days for every single destination we fly to. So now we can think about beyond the inspiration to provide opportunities to book your hotel, to book your activity, to book your restaurant, right? Ways you introduce merchants, brands and advertisers into the thinking, into the inspiration and planning aspect of it. You know, day of trip, you know, it's a different mindset, right? Get to the airport. And that's where our app kind of stands out as very instructive. Here's where you drop your baggage. Your gate is you have within the clubs, right? Opportunities for branding, opportunities for engagement, you know, and again, you can think about different times in the clubs, right? Monday mornings, Thursday afternoons is the time of the business travel travels. You have leisurely travel that can travel during the weekends. They vary, but it's that ability to capture that diverse audience at different points and inspire them with content that's relevant to their likes and interests based on their part of the journey.
- [11:15]
AdTech God (Host)
I mean, I don't know what to say, Mike, but this is super interesting to me hearing all of this as someone who's not a media buyer. It sounds pretty incredible. So thank you for sharing all of that. When you run through the overall, I guess, parent of United, you have Mileage plus, you have the United Airlines, you have Kinetic Media Network, you're running partnerships across all of those. From our brief chat prior, what exactly does that look like in terms of your partnerships? What are you looking for and where do you see these partnerships either filling a void or expanding on your audience or your offering?
- [11:51]
Mike Petrella
I mean, I love this part of my job. I always joke that it's my job to come up with good ideas. And there's some days where the ideas flow and there's other days where I have to explain what I was thinking. But we've taken an approach to really focus on customer choice. And in doing so, we've been agnostic in the way that we're approaching many of our partnerships. And so travel adjacent partnerships have been the foundation of what Mileage Plus, Non air loyalty. And I say this Mileage plus in itself, you know, we use connective as well. It's, it's the hub of innovation for United, right? We're leveraging technology and data to deliver this mission of really enriching traveler journeys and the scale of the airline. And our leading loyalty program, Mileage plus is large part of that, you have Connective Media, you have our credit card, you have the Non air Loyalty partnerships, and that is your Marriotts and Avises and you know, our cruises. But we're also extending that to non travel adjacent. And so you've seen things like Ticketmaster, Arala just launched, Vivid seats, Televisa, Univision, Spotify.
- [13:06]
Interviewer/Host (AdTech God)
Right?
- [13:06]
Mike Petrella
Came through my group. And so it's this ability to complement and enrich that journey at all different points, and not necessarily just because you're traveling, right? You and I are travelers, even though we're home today. I'm assuming you're at your house. Yet when we travel, be it for business and for leisure, our likes and interests follow us. So, for instance, I was in Chicago this past week and I went to a Cubs game, I went to an Asian fusion restaurant, I went to things that I would do if I was home as well. And so if I can create opportunities to show the utility of the mile, right? Opportunities to earn miles, opportunities to redeem miles, opportunities that just showcase the value of being a Mileage plus member, where I have either exclusive or unique opportunities brought forth through these partnerships, I've created more incentive for someone to join Mileage plus to fly United. I then created the opportunity to show the utility of the mile far beyond, you know, just solely redemption or accrual for air. Like, that's where I'm very focused on creating this. Just sort of no brainer in terms of why would I want to be a Mileage plus member? Why would I want to fly United? Because I get this and this. I only get this through Mileage plus, right? That's where my head's at.
- [14:25]
AdTech God (Host)
You mentioned like, so many aspects of like the consumer journey, right? Like even the conquest part, it's the incentives to sign up, the benefits done there, but then the loyalty piece on the very, like, other side of the flow of like, why do I stick with United? Why am I staying with Mileage Plus? Whether it's the. The credit card incentives, I have a United Airlines credit card. I do it for the points, I do it for the lounge access. I do it because of the point incentives I get for booking my flight with United. I'll pay less or I'll pay more just knowing that I get extra points for it and I can use them and redeem them at some point in the future for a backpack or for any other item I want from the store. So for me, I could see the loyalty piece. Does that data available to you through your Mileage plus loyalty program, does that also translate to how you target these users as well, outside of just display, Are you using this to promote differently to them via email, via push notifications? Are you incentivizing them differently? Do you see this data and do you utilize that and how do you possibly process so much information for hundreds of millions of people?
- [15:36]
Mike Petrella
Yeah, I mean like anything else, right. First and foremost, the sanctity and the privacy of all of our data, all of our traveler data is paramount. We ensure that we are privacy compliant across any and every possible regulation, legislation and such. Our travelers are the most valuable, you know, thing for us. And so it's there's upon us to ensure that the way we act always puts their safety, their data safety at the forefront. So, and I say that with conviction and passion because there are a number of bad actors out there. And for us, you know, we want to be very smart and conservative with the way we approach things to ensure that safety and to ensure that, you know, they remain, you know, our primary focus and quite frankly, you know, just the inspiration to do better. And so the way we capture, you know, when we think about it, our traveler data we talked about, right, it's upwards of, you know, 63 million active mileage plus members. And even in the ability then to understand, you know, you create these like attitudinal, behavioral, transactional and lifestyle like segments and using data as the horizontal, that allows us to think about how can we personalize the journeys. You know, today each seatback screens are not on an individual basis. So if you and I were sitting next to each other, our seat back screen would be the same in a future facing moment. You know, we want to have that personalization such that, you know, my screen would say, hey, here's a baseball game, here's a golf course, here's a restaurant that you may want to go to. And assuming that you may be an outdoor enthusiast, right, or very affluent in the arts and culture, great. Here's places to hike, here are the, you know, museums and exhibits that are pertinent to your interests. And having that as such a way of sort of the surprise and delight, but at the same time the exploration, right? Just because Mike went to a Cubs game doesn't mean he may want to go to a Cubs game next. I just may be someone who is a sports enthusiast. And so the Blackhawks are in town or the Bulls are playing or there's, you know, fan exhibits somewhere that's, you know, of my interest. So we really focus on just ensuring that we're providing like relevant content and content can come in the form of ads, can come in the form of video, can come in the form of, you know, text in such a manner that creates that incentive to act upon. And we'll test and learn as well, right? I'm not a hockey fan, but show me a Blackhawks ad and I may not go and, you know, next time you show me the Bulls ad, whatever the case is or story, whatever. And so we're trying to use our, you know, we, we use the insights and the intelligence to form the right message for the right person at the right time.
- [18:31]
AdTech God (Host)
Question for you. When the industry's changed a lot over the last couple years, whether it's, you know, incentives like, or changes like SPO or the introduction of AI or the scaling of AI solutions in market, whether that's media buying or optimizations or anything else, what are you most excited about? What trend do you look at the most on a regular basis that you think will impact United and will impact connected media for the better in the future?
- [19:02]
Mike Petrella
You know, I, I was sort of a, a Nonchalant user of AI, you know, in 24, which is ages ago at this point. And we've placed a large focus on AI internally and today we're using AI for good. You know, we're using it to help translate or make articles available for, you know, those who may be like vision impaired. We use it on a concierge like basis, cross saying, you know, hey, I'm going to San Francisco. What should I do? And that the generative function, you know, the agenc generative function for us is a way to really communicate in a more efficient basis with our travelers. And I think about how I can take that and expand to really help with the traveler journey. And I keep saying traveler journey. And it's not because I get compensated for every time I say it. I think very, you know, as I think about all the people we fly, they're all individuals, like. And I. And that's really the basis of, like, it's not just a paying customer, it's a person, it's a human being. It's someone that has likes and interests. It's a mother, father, partner, brother, sister, you know, whatever the case is. And I want to be able to create the most personalized journey for them. And as I think about, you know, our mission and as we build our partnerships through loyalty, through advertising, through whatever the case is, I want to be able to serve them with the most relevant, helpful opportunity from a catalog of thousands.
- [20:40]
Interviewer/Host (AdTech God)
Right.
- [20:40]
Mike Petrella
And so this idea of helping people find what they want versus being able to leverage tools like generative AI. This is what I know about you. Here's what I can do and here's how I can do it quickly. That's important for me. It's important for us to do things for good. And as I think about from the mileage plus standpoint and the non air partnerships, we've innovated the mileage plus ecosystem significantly over the past two years and what we're bringing in the future is going to make what we've done so far, you know, look like chicken scratch. And I'm very excited about that.
- [21:20]
AdTech God (Host)
Awesome. I am too. Mike and I wanted to thank you and thank Connected Media United for having you here as my guest today. Mike, I really enjoyed this chat. Thank you. Thank you again for being here.
- [21:30]
Mike Petrella
I could not be happier to be here. Thank you for the opportunity.
- [21:36]
Amelia from Architecture
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- [22:01]
Kate from Marketexture
Next. Hello and welcome back to the Refresh.
- [22:08]
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Mike Petrella
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Mike Petrella
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Mike Petrella
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Mike Petrella
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Mike Petrella
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- [22:37]
Kate from Marketexture
See mintmobile.com your weekly download on what went down in advertising. I'm Kate with Marketexture and today is Tuesday, September 9th. This week on the Refresh we're obviously covering the heavy hitter Google Search Antitrust trial remedies ruling. And we'll also take a look at why media buyers are blocking Publicis owned Epsilon, SSP and Perplexity's pullback from paid ads. Before we kick off, shout out to our sponsor adform for their support. 40% of Internet users are unreachable on Cookielist browsers due to identity fragmentation causing wasted impressions, inflated CPAs and revenue loss. Reclaim your audience and find your 40 with Adform. Now let's get into it, starting things off with Google, who was just spared from the harshest remedies in its search antitrust trial, thanks largely to the passage of time and a search landscape that moved faster than the legal system could in the most dramatic season yet of big tech antitrust. Google's finale fell flat for viewers as Judge Mehta dished out his verdict in Google's search antitrust remedies phase of the trial. And I think the last time we as a society felt this level of incredible collective disappointment just might have been the Game of Thrones finale. So where did Judge Meta land? Let's review. No sell off of Chrome, a top DOJ request. No spinoff of Android, also a DOJ priority, and no restriction on payments to other big players like Apple or Samsung to make Google products like Chrome Search or Gemini the default on their platforms or devices. This means Google can continue paying these partners to preload or feature its products as long as those contracts do not establish exclusivity for Google. Judge Mehta explained his decision a bit by acknowledging the potential fallout of banning payments altogether, writing cutting off payments from Google almost certainly will impose substantial, in some cases, crippling downstream harms to distribution partners, related markets and consumers, which which counsels against a broad payment ban. As another part of his remedies, Judge Mehta also ruled that user choice screens, for example the option to choose which browser you want to use won't be required, more or less saying UX design isn't up to the courts to decide. Finally, Google must share some of its search data, like index and user interaction data, but not ads data, with qualified competitors. The DOJ's proposed version of this remedy pushed for more extensive data sharing, but ultimately this request was at least partially granted. The remedies will go into effect in 60 days, last for 6 years, and will be enforced by a newly formed committee. Many Google observers and commentators have already dismissed the outcome as underwhelming. Digiday's Ronin Shields may have summed it up the best, though. Even when Google loses, they win. The DOJ set out to prove that Google is a monopolist, and for that goal, mission accomplished. But the remedies ruling was meant to curb monopolistic power, and skepticism is high over whether these measures will actually accomplish that. There was a critical factor at play that altered the course of this case and influenced judgemetta's remedy's decision. Though the entrance of generative AI to the market when this case was filed back in 2020, it didn't anticipate the disruption that would occur in the search landscape as a result of generative AI. Judgmenta argued that competitors new and old like OpenAI, perplexity, meta, and Microsoft would provide healthy competition to Google in the years ahead. Overall, I think we could speculate on whether these remedies will restore competition to the market or if the market is restoring competition to itself. That said, in the last six months Google has aggressively reasserted itself in the AI race, rolling out AI overviews, launching AI mode, its ChatGPT like interface to US users and across 180 countries, and doubling down on embedding AI into its search ecosystem. At the same time, Google still controls roughly 65 to 70% of global browser share, with Apple trailing in second place at around 15%. And as we know, Google search remains preferenced on Apple devices. On top of this, Statista recently reported that paid search captures about 40% of ad spend and Google is the main beneficiary here. And sure, users are broadening their search behavior, turning to TikTok, Instagram, ChatGPT and Reddit, but it's hard to see those shifts putting a serious dent in Google's dominance anytime soon. All of this could lead us back to the inevitable another antitrust trial in another decade. Only this time the main storyline will be centered on who reigns in generative AI, and if history is any indicator, you can guess who's going to show up with some serious main character energy moving on from Google. Few things in life are certain except for death, taxes and a programmatic supply chain that's wildly convoluted. So it wasn't entirely shocking when news surfaced that some of the largest holding companies, independent agencies and brands only recently realized that they were indirectly funneling media spend to one of their biggest rivals, Publicis, via Epsilon ssp, which Publicis owns. And to be fair here, Publicis never buried the lead on the fact that it would benefit from its Epsilon acquisition. Access to data and an additional revenue stream was always part of the plan and kind of the whole point. What did get buried though, is data transparency and which hands inventory was passing through within programmatic auctions. Given the opacity and complexity of the programmatic supply chain, which has never been short on shenanigans, it's believable that buyers didn't realize the inventory they were purchasing was being resold by Epsilon SSP through another ssp, a practice known as Multi Hop Resources Selling. Along the way, it's plausible that data leakage may have occurred, including details like how much a buyer was willing to spend on a piece of inventory or exposing key elements of their audience targeting strategy. The revelation prompted some buyers to block Epsilon SSP altogether. And for me, it resurfaces a broader long standing question that I've had. What are the implications of large holding companies or similar industry giants owning critical pieces of the ad tech ecosystem? Doesn't that remove independence, introduce bias and create conflicts of interest? In this case, the answer seems to be yes, despite publicists insistence that the data is not logged or stored by Epsilon ssp. Sure Jan. Ultimately, this story highlights multiple facets of the plague that is the ad industry's ongoing struggle to create a clean, mutually beneficial programmatic supply chain. It not only reinforces the critical importance of supply path optimization and the fact that the industry still struggles to implement it effectively, but partially as a result of being unable to consistently gain access to comprehensive, transparent data. It also underscores the dialogue around this story that's highlighted a less talked about factor misplaced expectations around who exactly is responsible for ensuring ad spend flows through efficient ethical supply paths. I've noticed the media buyers themselves increasingly being thrown under the bus with comments boiling down to things like well, any savvy programmatic buyers should be able to look at their log files and see that this is obviously happening. Yeah, sure, ideally. But in reality this is a top down organizational responsibility. Buyers need to be trained to apply best practices and discernment when purchasing inventory, like knowing how to read log files. They also need the time and bandwidth to focus on these details. Many are juggling multiple accounts, struggling just to stay afloat and understandably take the path of least resistance to achieve their clients goals. I'm not saying it's right necessarily, I'm just saying that this is the reality. One way to circumvent this a bit is to establish more sophisticated supply path optimization efforts. At a senior level, organizations should have dedicated teams and processes in place to vet their supply and remove inefficiencies, which ultimately ensures that buyers are working with the cleanest supply paths possible from the start. And to be fair here, a lot of leading DSPs and buying platforms do already have this in place. And of course, all of this is easier said than done. The programmatic supply chain is incredibly complex and technically dense, and even seasoned ad tech veterans are grappling with how to fix it. But part of the solution just may come from the very stories and industry debates that are occurring like this one. By shining a light on these issues, the industry has a better shot at fostering awareness accountability and eventually building a healthier ecosystem. Finally, let's close things out with Perplexity's recent pullback in its ads offering. When ChatGPT hit the scene a few years ago, some of the first questions advertisers asked were how will generative search be monetized? Which was quickly followed by what is the right way to monetize generative search? Those are both questions Perplexity seemed to set out to explore as one of the first and only players to roll out ads within its self described AI Answers engine. Of all the AI search platforms to hit the scene, Perplexity seemed most willing to experiment with what monetization might look like in a generative environment. But now the company seems to have pulled back on those efforts, a shift underscored by the recent departure of its head of advertising, Taz Patel. So where or why are AI search ads falling flat? According to Ad Age, advertisers said Perplexity's ad efforts lacked clear value or direction. In my opinion, the broader challenge with AI ads today is that platforms are simply porting over legacy formats that worked well on traditional paid search or seem like the most obvious answer to the problem, like sponsored follow up questions or suggestions. On top of this, both consumers and advertisers are unclear on the value proposition of these ads, and for advertisers, the formats don't address or resolve their uncertainties surrounding them. Exactly how will my brand be mentioned, in what context, how often, what outcome or outcomes do these formats support, and how am I going to measure that? Traditional search is subject to some of this same uncertainty, but the value exchange has always been clear. I pay you Google to drive clicks to my website and ideally generate some sort of conversion action. This doesn't exist in generative search, given one of the main designs of these platforms is to keep users in that interface. Traditional search also gave advertisers clear strategies that they could apply to control their outcomes in both paid and organic efforts, and these were more reliable prior to the introduction of generative search. But they still exist. That type of control hasn't yet materialized in AI environments. There are also macro factors at play here. For most generative AI platforms and advertising products, the necessary infrastructure to create interoperability between systems, tools and applications isn't in place yet. Protocols like Anthropic's Model Context Protocol or MCP, or Google's Agent to Agent aka A2A, are starting to gain traction, but full interoperability is still a ways off. For their part, brands will need to make sure their data is available in AI friendly formats to help embed themselves in chatbot conversations or browsing journeys. A final factor at play is that perplexity, and those like them have yet to settle on a final product state. Right now, their consumer access points and therefore ad opportunities are are taking on multiple forms a website interface inside an existing browser like Chrome, which most of us are familiar with an AI Assistant extension such as Anthropics Cloud for Chrome Pilot, or a standalone AI browser itself. Without that final state, ad opportunities will remain either experimental or non existent for the time being. Even Google needed some time to roll out AdWords after launching Google Search. Search arrived in 1998. AdWords arrived two years later in 2000. AI is evolving rapidly, but today we're still in a place where platforms, developers and consumers alike don't fully know what comes next. Ad solutions will materialize, but we may need to sit tight and reset our expectations around what those solutions will actually end up looking like. That's all we have time for this week. Thanks for joining us for the refresh and we'll catch you next week.