A (3:55)

That's amazing. I feel like you probably get such a great perspective at IB Tech Lab just because of where you sit and the members that you deal with and you talk to on a regular basis. Probably a step ahead of everybody else because you're really collecting and understanding what the market needs and then building out around it. I guess. Before I talk about that, I want to ask you because I, I do this pretty often. Like I interchange IAB with IAB Tech Lab. What's the difference? I'm sure I'm not the only one. Like I refer to IAB Tech. So I. All the time, all the time I'm like, iab. And they're like, oh no. IAB Tech Lab. What, what's the difference between the two? Are they associated with each other? Are they totally independent of each other? Maybe if you explain that real quick, it'll, it'll just help the listeners know the core difference between the two.

B (4:40)

Yeah, I mean, they're definitely sister organizations, but they are different. So iab, like the mothership. IAB are market or regional level and they do like policy research. Their constituency is typically senior salespeople, that kind of thing. Tech Lab is product engineering and, and we lay the open source technical specifications to do the actual signaling that's needed.

A (5:08)

Awesome. Speaking of the convergence of the definition and responsibilities of IAB and IAB Tech Club, what are you hearing in market about the convergence of our industry and advertising altogether? What's IAB working on to help with that and how do you help with those particular challenges that we have?

B (5:27)

Tech Lab is doing lots of stuff.

A (5:29)

Did I say IAB again?

B (5:31)

You did.

A (5:32)

You know what? I'm over. I'm just going to refer as TechLab. I'm done. We just went through that whole explanation and I messed up already.

B (5:39)

Nope, no notes.

C (5:40)

That was great.

B (5:41)

Actually this is a good example. So the IAB mothership actually just came out with a video ad spend report that was really fascinating. And that from the mothership has really informed a lot of the conversations that I've been having at TechLab. I think probably the biggest or one of the biggest themes around conversion that's happening today is programmatic ing in ctv. That is my technical term. We're going to make it a thing programmaticing in ctv. So you actually start to see a lot of non traditional Tech lab constituents start to come to us. So you're seeing a lot of lean in from the big streamers from the SSAI Vendors like people do want to use the programmatic pipes because there's so much opportunity and it's so much more powerful like the things that they can do using the programmatic pipes. That comes with a whole basket of complications that I'm really, really focused on. So there's a lot of stuff that already exists. So a lots in OpenRTB can already is helpful. We have programs like OMSDK, which basically standardizes the way that like verification vendors can do things like what was the last interaction of the tv? What's the geometry of the ad on the screen? And answers really powerful questions in CTV. But we're also building out OpenRTV specifically with a group I'm leading called Live Event Ad Playbook or Live Event Ad Serving or leap. We're very into the funny acronyms and that is all completely focused on APIs that are not OpenRTB but they sit alongside OpenRTB to help inform like what happens in real time.

A (7:21)

So when you talk about the specs and working with these partners in particular, what can be done for it to be more seamless because the integration between the media channels can vary a lot. Is is that what you guys are working on? On helping connect those dots and making sure that everything is working correctly and accurately?

D (7:40)

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B (8:21)

Difficult to quantify as terms what we do or what I do. I very much view myself as like a diplomat in my role as steward of these specifications. So I want to provide the pipes to send the information that people are asking for. Now I will say I think in CTV is a good example. There are very legitimate reasons why so I hear a lot of buyers complain that they aren't getting the level of transparency that they're asking for. There are super legitimate reasons why the sellers are not sending that information. So those kinds of conversations have a tendency to, I'm not going to say go off the rails but there's, there's an element of like he said, she said there's so I really view my role in a lot of this as like everybody calm down. I know everyone's having big feelings. It's going to be fine. This is ad tech. So buyer, if you are asking for transparency from your seller like to the nth degree, great. I really hope you're paying extra for that. And there's almost always a deal ID in play where you are paying extra for that and where you do get to see that information because you agree to it in that deal id. However, if there's a deal that say packages across different apps or app bundles or packages across multiple different shows or in the case of MVPDs, there's a lot of like contractual terms that literally say they cannot share the show title information then like stuff it. And I also truly believe that it is the publisher's God given right to package their inventory however they see fit. And capitalism baby. If the buyers don't want to buy it, then don't buy it. Like it seems very straightforward to me.

A (10:12)

So what, what are like, what are some things that I guess buyers are looking for that sellers are not often making available? You said show level targeting is, is one and I understand from a publisher's perspective where if they don't have to pass it, why would they pass it? Because they would cherry pick there might be particular shows that are of greater interest, but the performance might be the same, but because of the name association of that show, they want to be next to that hit show when in reality the user is just as valuable watching a two year old show that's a rerun. What other things are not being passed? Or what are the things are buyers looking for when buying ads across the.

D (10:50)

Hey, this is Ari with Market and unless you've been living under a rock, you've probably heard that Marketexture Live is coming up October 27th in New York City City the last Marketecture Live was sold out and this one will surely be as well. With speakers like Mark Grether of PayPal, Eric Seufert of Mobile Dev Memo, and Jenny Wall from Videoamp Plus, I'll be recording my podcast live with the one and only Antonio Garcia Martinez, author of Chaos Monkeys and now part of the team building at Coinbase. It's a stacked agenda and we hope to see you there. Go to marketlive.com and grab your ticket while they're still available. That's marketlive.com.

B (11:29)

TDP App Bundle ID is another really big one, right? So if you have a deal that runs across like the Super Premium, super well branded, you know, flagship app plus a couple of the other sidecar apps, well if you have a deal that gives you a blended cpm, like of course they're not going to send you the bundle ID and the bid request because the full expectation is that it'll be cherry picked for just the Super Premium one. So again if you're not going to pay the plus up for only the premium one, then don't expect to get the app in the in the bid.

A (12:00)

Stream, just set up a deal and request it and pay for it.

B (12:04)

Exactly. Now that causes a lot of other problems in the bid stream on the back of that, because if you don't have the bundle id, there is zero way to tell who is in fact authorized to sell against that bundle ID because like the app Ads Txt file isn't there. So there's risk associated with with buying against anything that has any kind of obfuscated supply chain or S chain. But you know, it is what it is today and that also contributes to a lot of the bid duplication. So again, perfectly legitimately right, you're you're not going to send the bundle ID against one deal id. You might in another. But if you think about sort of the ad tech spaghetti that exists. So let's say conservatively there are three parties all with some right of sale into a given pod, those three parties, there's no way to, to like disintermediate who has right of sale for that particular pod. So when the commercial break comes up, all three of those parties get called. That kicks off all three of those parties, ad tech stacks and each other. Right. So it just becomes what I call ad tech spaghetti.

A (13:10)

And that's because you could have one call and you could have three SSPs, and those SSPs are connected to the same DSPs and then the DSPs are saying passing it along and you're basically seeing a bit duplication. But in reality, it's just, it just is how it works. It's going into various marketplaces. Buyers are seeing it potentially multiple times.

B (13:31)

Yeah. And like, don't get me wrong, that's not to say there's not chicanery happening. There absolutely is chicanery afoot. But if we're saying one pod, three parties with right of sale, those three parties with right of sale with a different bid request for every single permutation of the levels of transparency that they're willing to give to the bid stream.

A (13:52)

Right. What else are you guys working on? Like, what else are you excited about that you're, you're working on with your members?

B (13:59)

I mean, the live event stuff has been amazing. Curation has been wild. That does have a really material impact into the live stuff too, because the work product out of the curation working group is a deal API. I know lots of other parties already have their own deal APIs, so what I'm trying to do from the tech lab perspective is twofold. I'm trying to give as lightweight as possible of a deal API that just is kind of meta. It can sit on top of those existing deal APIs to say, here's the information that's contained and if you already have your own, that's fine. Just map your values to this value. What I also really want to do though, is have some level of transparency into, if nothing else, at the very least, naming who the curator of the package was. That alone will go a long way. I genuinely believe sunlight is the best disinfectant. The working group is working through additional questions of, like, what's the curation fee? Like, is this a single deal or multiple deal? I don't know where those will land. But like, those are the kinds of conversations and I'm loving it. People are really lean in. People have shockingly big feelings about this.

A (15:02)

I'm curation, to me, I, I don't know. I, I Don't. I don't see how it's like a game changer. I'm. Maybe I feel like maybe it's more hype. Maybe I misunderstand curation overall. Like, is it really that different than what we were doing before? Or is it just more transparency? Is it just easier, more streamlined buying with supply for partners? I don't know. I'm just like, not hyped on it as much. I understand everybody is. There's obviously been some very big exits. What sets it apart as something that's unique in market? How is curation so important for buyers today?

B (15:40)

It's not my purview to speak to the value of something. What I think though is it is a thing that is happening and it is common enough that it merits having a standard and it merits naming who those parties that are involved and giving some information. Right. So the DLAPI I mentioned, that's not going to have like, obviously it's not going to have like take rates. That would be a completely unreasonable ask, but certainly. So the API assumes that some deal has been struck between the buyer of the deal and the seller of the deal. But, like, some information about what's the fee type here? Or like, is this deal the curator's data plus audience, or is it some other thing that I think is a perfectly fair question to ask. And like, I will also call out, like, anytime you buy against a digital ID that doesn't have an S chain associated with a supply chain associated with it. Danger, Will Robinson. It is not the way. That is not the droid we're looking for.

A (16:43)

I know you guys do a lot around AI and this wouldn't be an ad tech podcast if we didn't talk about AI.

B (16:49)

We have to.

A (16:50)

What we have to. It's like, at first I'm like, wow, let's talk about it. This is totally new. And now I'm like, look, it's a standard question because it's everywhere. I heard something yesterday that we're in the middle of an AI bubble. I don't believe it. Not ad tech in general.

B (17:03)

I don't agree with that. Police work.

A (17:04)

I disagree. Yeah, I totally disagree. I read it. I read it last night and they said it's a bubble. And everybody's just going to realize that this is totally overhyped. I actually feel the opposite. I actually think that this is like, it's like inventing like Microsoft Word and Excel. Like, it's going to become a standard use for day to day. We're going to utilize it in Various ways. As a consumer, businesses are going to utilize AI in whichever method they feel is best, to streamline operations or anything else. But, like, what's IAB doing around that? Because it does disrupt the industry quite a bit, but also the capabilities it brings to the industry is really powerful. But what's IAB doing? IAB Tech Lab doing.

B (17:44)

I was going to say I did it again. IAB does have a head of AI who's lovely. She's wonderful. What TechLab is doing. We just announced actually this week our initiative called comp. So it's AI Content Monetization Working Group, or comp. Again, one of those pithy names that I'm going to be leading. And that's basically a way to help publishers address the fact that these AI crawlers are just stealing from them and not paying for it.

A (18:15)

So bad.

B (18:16)

It's why y'.

A (18:17)

All. It's so bad. I feel bad for publishers. Like, they need to protect themselves. Like, there's so much work and money invested in content and to have someone just rip it. And it's even like, yeah, there's integrations being done with various LLMs where, like, you can see the source, but it's not easy to see the source. Like, it's a tiny little, tiny circle that you click to see where that source came from. So you're really just bypassing everything and making that information available. Also, on the comp name, why'd you go with comp? Like, you should have gone with LLM, NM or something. That's, like, really hard to say that way. LLM and monetization.

B (18:58)

Hey, man, I lit the privacy sandbox stuff, and I had to say the word Poppy in front of a room full of ad tech bros way too many times. Like, no.

A (19:06)

I got into trouble once for that with. With Arie, like, two or three years ago, where I. I think I put his picture and I put Poppy underneath it, and he's like, come on, man. And I'm like, I'm not doing this anymore. Sorry I stepped over the line here with. With AI and working with your members. Can you explain what COMP does, what the purpose is and what you help to achieve with it?

B (19:28)

Let's say that, Yeah, I mean, the group hasn't started yet, tbd. But what I'm. My sort of mental model here is let's start with bot blocking, right? Like, helping publishers work with the CDNs and the public and their publishers, right? To say, do we just recommend using 402 and just block all bots and choose violence? Like, open Question. Then there's like the discoverability piece of this, right? So how do you want to convert that content metadata? I really like. I think it was cloudflare that said this is cool to crawl, but you have to pay me for it. So do we need like a content tht? Something like that. Right. Then there's like the direct like monetization piece of this. So like you're blocking content, but you have some very lightweight way to do discovery. Let's say somebody chooses they do want to buy that content or crawl that content, how do you then appropriately monetize it? Like, is this a deal id? Is this a joint business plan? Is this however it is, right? So basically, like start by closing the door and locking it, then sort of cracking it open little by little, making sure everybody gets paid for it. And then, and only then we can have the attribution discussion. So this is all subject to change based on the group's priorities, but that's kind of where my, like where my head is at.

A (20:45)

So this is more of like a gatekeeper initiative, if I could say that. Right? Like how do we make it available to them and how do they pay for it? It's not necessarily how do LLMs monetize on their end? This is purely a publisher focused protection initiative. Right? Like how do you protect your content and what's the right way for you to be compensated for it? So could it be like you do gatekeep with a 402 or you do gatekeep with a cloudflare solution or I think even human has a solution now that can block crawlers. And then how, how are you compensated for it on the supply side? This is not necessarily like an initiative where you're working with OpenAI to say this is how we think you could monetize in Rev Share.

B (21:29)

I would eat my shoe if the AI companies actually showed up in that room. But I would be so incredibly impressed if they were willing to meaningfully engage in this conversation with publishers. I've led an awful lot of very contentious conversations. Like I co led privacy sandbox. I led buyer uid, I led video plcmt. I am no stranger to having these fights and like moderating these fights and being very much a the middle ground there, the diplomat there. So like, don't be scared. I'm nice. Like, I would love to see them in the room.

A (22:04)

Last question for you, Hill, before we wrap it up, what really keeps you motivated? I'm sure there's a lot of challenges that you face. You have a lot of members Some are, like you said, some are emotional, very driven. I'm sure some are not as invested in the solutions. You probably receiving a ton of requests of all different types. What keeps you motivated and moving forward and starting these new standards and working with these teams?

B (22:32)

I love what I do. Like, don't get me wrong, there is a lot of, there are a lot of big feelings that I deal with from the constituency, but I am so motivated to what I do for a few reasons. I think it's really important to have a female technical lead in such a highly visible role that is, like, I didn't have anybody, like anybody matching any kind of that description when I was coming up. So that's super important to me. The conversations are always interesting, even the ones that aren't in good faith. I can. Which I can. I've been doing this for a few years now. I can pretty quickly sniff that out. I do find them just generally fascinating. And I'm never, I'm certainly never bored.

A (23:11)

Right.

B (23:11)

These, the conversations that I lead are always important and it's always with a group of very highly invested, brilliant people who have, many of whom, like, helped build the thing. Right. And I'm just, I'm, I'm always just amazed when I get calls from the likes of the, you know, the ad tech godfathers. Right. It's, it's fantastic.

A (23:36)

Amazing. Hill, thank you so much for joining me today. I appreciate it and thank you to the tech lab for having you here. I'm going to say it the right way. I messed up three times. Maybe I could go back and edit it, but thank you, as usual.

B (23:49)

Oh, live your truth.

A (23:51)

I am. I'm going to keep it there. I'm not perfect. I know that. I also know that I messed up like four times. So it is fun. Thank you. I really appreciate it and have a great remainder of the week.

B (24:02)

You too.

C (24:03)

Hey, party people, it's Amelia from Architecture Kickoff Advertising Week in style on Monday, October 6th at the Madison Ave returns party. Over 300 agencies, brands and leaders all under one roof at Virgin Hotels New York City. Want your brand front and Center. Sponsors and VIPs get priority access. Lock it in now at edtechgod events.com and stick around. The Refresh with Kate is coming up next. Hello and welcome back to the Refresh, your weekly download on what went down in advertising. I'm Kate with Marketexture and today is Tuesday, September 22nd. This week we're talking about the hopeful conclusion of the TikTok drama Rembrandt and SpaceX merger and index exchanges integration with Gracenote before we kick off, shout out to our sponsor Adforum for their support. 40% of Internet users are unreachable on Cookielist browsers due to identity fragmentation, causing wasted impressions, inflated CPAs and revenue loss. Reclaim your audience and find your 40 with Adform. Now let's get into it. Remember back in January when TikTok influencers were crying on camera, saying goodbye to the app and posting videos titled what I Lied About? Well, it turns out they had nothing to worry about and maybe shouldn't have been so forthcoming about their false pretenses. Last Monday, we heard that TikTok's fate may be sealed and saved as news broke that the Trump administration has reached a framework deal with China. A quick heads up at the time of this recording, President Trump hasn't yet held his meeting with President Xi Jinping, which is scheduled to take place on Friday, September 19th. So by the time you tune into this pod, some details of the story may have shifted. But here's where things stand. As of Thursday, September 18, the deal would spin out TikTok's US operations into a new company controlled by both existing investors and new investors rumored to include Oracle, Andreessen Horowitz and Silver lake. The new US cohort of investors would control 80% of the app, leaving 20% with China, which technically satisfies the 2024 law that kicked off this whole saga. The new company would also oversee US Operations going forward and would have a predominantly American board with one member delegated by the US government. As far as the actual mechanics of the TikTok app goes, by all accounts, the rumors that popped up over the summer that a new version of the app is being developed appear to be true. If or when this new app is launched, current TikTok users will be asked to migrate to this version of the app, which has allegedly already been in testing. It's also being asserted that the TikTok US app will license the Chinese version of the algorithm from TikTok's parent company, ByteDance. That news has raised eyebrows and legal red flags, since this wouldn't completely disentangle the app from Chinese influence over its operation, a key requirement of the 2024 law. To keep the deal in play and bring TikTok home, Trump has extended the ban deadline one last time, or at least we think so. This banned deadline will run through December 16th. All that said, questions still remain, and they're big ones, including how many of TikTok's 170 million American users will actually migrate to a new app if they're required to do so. I think we can safely bet on heavy users and creators to do this, but then how seamless of an experience will that be? Can you use your existing login credentials, or will you need to make an entirely new account? Will your content carry over, or will you have to start from a blank slate? How these questions are answered could have some serious implications for creators and the advertisers they work with. And then there's the algorithm. If the new version isn't as sticky or addictive as the current algorithm, that's a legitimate concern, as it could change the course of the app's fate. On the other hand, depending on the experience the app provides or facilitates, we could see entirely new audiences of app users surface. One thing I do think we could confidently bet on is that TikTok shop and live Shopping will continue to command a growing presence on the app. If recent job postings are any indication, TikTok will be keeping a heavy focus here and on the development of its ad products, particularly measurement and advertiser services more broadly. Regardless of how this shakes out, it's in investors best interest to make this thing successful, and at this point I think advertisers would just like a little bit of stability. Anecdotally speaking, I swear every round of deal making drama in this entire saga was correlated to major swings in the algorithm. Knowing what to expect would be a welcome change for creators, users and anyone trying to plan ad campaigns without having to predict what TikTok will even look like six months from now. Alright, moving on. AdTech M&A seems to be heating up again. Apparently getting into the holiday spirit means crossing companies off of wishlists. Last week it was magnite and streamer AI. This week it was Rembrandt and Spaceback who announced a merger and a cash in stock deal that brings space back under Rembrandt's roof. And this deal is actually Rembrandt's second pickup of 2025. Back in July they bought Myriad, which uses computer vision to embed brand assets into contextually relevant scenes within video content. That investment seems to be supporting Rembrandt's primary offering, which uses AI to render and deliver virtual product placements. Spaceback, on the other hand, takes social media content and repackages it into programmatic environments across ctv, digital video and display. Rembrandt also has tech that scans a brand's website, social handles and videos across YouTube, TikTok, Instagram and LinkedIn to lock onto that brand's vibe, then sources influencer or video clips to match it and deliver ads against. While the two companies have different but complementary offerings, they share a mission and vision, creating ads that don't look like ads, bringing a more organic and less intrusive experience to consumers. As Rembrandt CEO Omar Tawakul put it, people love content and they hate disruptions, so they'll literally pay money to not see ads. In that kind of a world, you either need to embed a brand into content, which is what we do, or make great ads out of content, which is what Spaceback does. So what else is in it for Rembrand? Beyond alignment on their philosophy surrounding ad creative, Spaceback provides some serious scale, bringing relationships with 3,000 mostly mid tail advertisers to the table. Those relationships come with a lot of valuable data for Rembrandt's AI to train on. The deal is expected to close by the end of September, with integration of the two companies, product offerings and tech starting in October and wrapping early next year. The end goal? A combined platform where advertisers can find compatible content layer product placements, generate ads and launch campaigns. Stepping back for a second, this deal reflects some bigger creative trends that are happening across ad tech. One Creative is gradually but steadily being reprioritized as a fundamental driver of performance, and we're seeing a shift of creative capabilities moving away from dedicated agency teams into the buying platforms themselves. Case in point, the trade desk's integration with Rembrandt and Magnite's recent acquisition of Streamer AI. Generative AI has made creative production more accessible, and the industry is starting to go all in. For me, this has left a nagging question. Can AI generation and human grade quality coexist? I'd argue yes, but it does depend the sophistication of the platform's capabilities and the advertiser. Using those tools, alongside the ability to vet assets before they're put in front of consumers, will all be make or breaks. But for brands without mega budgets, AI could be a real equalizer. One final creative trend we're seeing is that we're entering an era of intelligent creative it's not just about generating assets in real time, it's about using AI to figure out where those ads should run, matching placement to mood, moment and emotion. Gum Gum's mindset graph, CTAG's Liz, YouTube's Peak Points, and Disney's magic words are all examples of this trend. Rembrandt and Spaceback are betting that blending content and context is where advertising is headed. I personally find their approach to be a breath of fresh air and exactly what the industry needs. I'll be cheering them on. Finally, Index Exchange and gracenote are teaming up on what could be a big step for connected TV buying and something that advertisers have wanted for a long time. Now, Index Exchange, which is a supply side platform, and gracenote, which is Nielsen's content data business unit, are teaming up to enable the first integration of Gracenote's contextual intelligence into Index Exchange. The integration will bring Gracenote's metadata and content IDs into Index's platform, allowing publishers to package their streaming supply with robust contextual signals. And maybe even more significantly, particularly for advertisers past show level targeting and reporting through to them, this is relatively uncharted territory. Historically, advertisers haven't been able to access this level of visibility thanks to two primary publisher hangups. First, there's a legal barrier. Sharing show level data risks violating the Video Privacy Protection law, especially if that data can be tied back to a user identifier. Second, there's a barrier to business cherry picking inventory. Theoretically, if buyers can see exactly what shows they're buying against, they'll flock to the hits and leave everything else behind, making it a lot harder for publishers to monetize the long tail of their libraries. Advertisers are increasingly pushing ad spend to ctv, especially as access to so called premium inventory expands, but there's only so much truly premium supply out there. Without transparency, advertisers can't always tell if their ads are running against the buzzy tentpole shows they were promised or or just what they were promised in general, or if their ads are actually being placed alongside what can be viewed as less desirable long tail content. And that ultimately has significant influence over advertisers ability to plan smart campaigns that truly maximize their investments and performance outcomes. This move by Index and gracenote is a step toward addressing one of the biggest pain points that we face within transparency. And for advertisers trying to justify bigger CTV budgets, that's a meaningful step forward. That's all we have time for this week. Thanks for joining us for the refresh and we'll catch you next week.