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The Refresh Live from MAU: The Great Mobile Reset: Measurement, Performance and AI.
00:32:21
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- [00:00]
Kunal Nagpal
Foreign.
- [00:04]
Host
Welcome back to the Refresh, your weekly download on what's shaping the world of advertising media and ad tech. I'm your host and co founder of Market Ad Tech God. We are live from MAU Las Vegas. This special episode is brought to you by InMobi Advertising and dives into mobile performance marketing with three of the industry's finest. We have Kunal Nagpal from InMobi, Zach Griffin from Wavemaker and Milana Moore from Apps Flyer. They chat about everything from smarter measurement to fraud, AI and of course the future of app growth. This candid combo breaks down what's working, but more importantly what is not and what this means for the future of brands navigating the mobile advertising space. I hope you enjoy this episode. See you soon.
- [00:52]
Kunal Nagpal
Thank you for coming Coming over for this podcast, I'm really excited topic really close to my heart. I'm Kunal Hathfal, I'm chief business officer in Lobby Advertising. People been around for 18 years now and I would say this one consistent theme that we kept with ourselves and kept us true to our clients has been performance for their hard earned dollars. Right. And I'm really excited about sort of talking about the world of performance politics with you guys. I'd love to get a quick intro from you guys and then I have a quick icebreaker before we get into details.
- [01:27]
Zach Griffin
My name is Zach Griffin. I lead our mobile apps practice at wavemaker. So I work across the client portfolio for any client who's looking to grow their business through their mobile app and help them navigate the mobile ecosystem to really maximize that return on investment for paid media.
- [01:45]
Milana Moore
My name is Milano Moore. I am the agency alliances manager at AppsFlyer and really what my role is is to work with agencies like wavemaker to help them be armed with the tools that they need to be able to guide clients through the mobile ecosystem. So when you talked about navigating the ecosystem, what makes sense, how to get returns on your hard earned dollars. All of that is a part of the NMP strategy as well. So we work closely with agencies to help them understand what tools are available to action off of that and make better marketing decisions.
- [02:17]
Kunal Nagpal
Yeah, I mean we were talking about this earlier, Zach. Most people don't know wavemaker has this side of it, right? It's always been as far as I've been, always sort of the history also it's been that edgy, you know, brand agency within the holdco and to hear, you know, there's a special focus on the mobile side is great. And then to have people like, you know yourself or to help clients get a 360 view of how to think about things is, I think it's unique. So I'm looking forward to, you know, perspective from both of you on this topic before you get in there. What's one spyworthy skill that you guys have? Do you want to go first?
- [02:55]
Milana Moore
I will go first. Time traveling. If I had to have any spyworthy skill, it would be time traveling. But not in the traditional sense of hopping into a time machine and going back to the future. More along the lines of music. And I think music has the ability to really transport you into a different time. And so I have an appreciation for Motown and really old school rhythm and blues and how it influences music today. I create playlists that like, incorporate old school and new school so you can see the transitions between what they sampled. So I'll share some of those playlists with you. But that would be my skill.
- [03:32]
Kunal Nagpal
Totally wonderful.
- [03:33]
Zach Griffin
Yeah. I'd say my most spyworthy skill is being handy around the house. And maybe they don't show it a lot in the Mission Impossible move movies, but somebody's got to put the furniture together and make sure the plumbing is working.
- [03:46]
Kunal Nagpal
So now I think about it, all the really under the radar spies. I don't know if you remember from the movies, they all are like making stuff in some country home that suddenly they change into like this, you know. Yeah, Pie.
- [04:01]
Zach Griffin
Yeah, that would be me. I'm chopping logs in the wilderness and then hopping on a plane.
- [04:07]
Milana Moore
Yes. Or Pink Panther.
- [04:11]
Kunal Nagpal
I don't get any jet lag. I call that as my, you know, spy skill. I can land anywhere and I go full on right away.
- [04:17]
Milana Moore
That would be really valuable.
- [04:19]
Kunal Nagpal
And unfortunately only means I work more because I can. Instead of using the Xu that's lying for the next 36 hours and doing that, which I would love to, like I was saying earlier, right. This is a. The world of mobile is a very nuanced rollout zone. We think of performance marketing on top of it. It gets even more incredibly challenging for people to understand. And people who've been in this industry still struggle to make sense of it. And one of those areas that really make people fumble is metric. Right. And I want to talk to you guys about what do you think the modern approach to measurement and attribution is like? What does it look like today? Where do you think the marketers are actually winning on that front? Or maybe they're, you know, they have a blind spot and they're losing on it.
- [05:05]
Zach Griffin
Yeah, I Completely agree. Measurement is the number one conversation that I have with my clients. And one of the big challenges in the mobile space when it comes to measurements is the fact that you can have six or seven different sets of numbers that are telling you this is how valuable this particular piece of media is. So we help our clients understand, you know, this is how this one particular attribution model works. These are the signals that are being taken into account. These are, this is incrementality and how that should factor into your decision making process. And to simplify it, I like to use the idea of slow, medium and fast. Not just slow, medium and fast measurement frameworks, but also decisions. So if you think of a fast decision, that would be something like which creative is working best or how do I optimize in Google Ads or Meta in real time. And for that you have self attributed data for medium, it might be something like how do I distribute my budget in the most efficient way possible? And so you might look at SK Ad network, you might look at MMP attribution to make that kind of decision. And then finally you have the slow decisions or the ones that aren't made quite as frequently. The big questions like is my entire media budget ROI positive? And for that you have frameworks like incrementality. So I think it's all about breaking down what are the decisions that I need to make and understanding what the right tool is to address those.
- [06:34]
Milana Moore
I love that logic of slow, medium and fast. I think that's a great way to break things down. And I agree. I think measurement is foundational. It is table stakes at this point. And even in spite of that, a lot of marketers are still like not getting it right. So I'm glad you asked the question around like, who's winning? Who's getting it right for from our perspective, we want to build tools that make sense and fit neatly within a client's smart tech stack. So going beyond just having the nicest, flashiest tools, whatever's hottest on the scene, but like what actually makes sense for your business. And I think as a brand who's relying on an agency, you guys are helping them navigate those waters, right? Figuring out what are your KPIs, what are your objectives, what are you trying to achieve. So I love that you break it down in those different phases. But additionally, I think the brands that are winning are those that are breaking down internal silos. You're having organic teams, paid teams, marketing teams, all looking at different measurement. And so you kind of alluded to this and having Data in different silos and people not communicating and different sources of truth. So having one single source of truth, I think is important for marketers that want to get it right and want to win is having that North Star and saying we're all going to get on the same page about it.
- [07:46]
Kunal Nagpal
The number of times I've had conversations with the clients who, to your point, who know what data they need. Exactly. And then they know where to insert that into their measurement, let's say framework, it's probably in low single percent of the overall conversations. It's just one of those things where on the one hand they rely on partners like yourself and they rely on the agency to help obtain through this. The other hand, it's almost like they just stop thinking about it because it's so complicated. And actually like we define that balance with them to make them understand whether it's your framework or Fast page. It's like, what's really important, like what are you trying to solve for right now? And therefore what data you should ask? Like, we've offered more data than they can consume in this lifetime because we then like, here's a PETA pyte of data and they're like, PETA what? Right. Yeah, it's hard. I get it. Yeah.
- [08:39]
Zach Griffin
Those operational challenges are real. And if you think about your typical large organization, you have kind of the marketing center of excellence, you have product marketing managers, finance, all of those different entities need to be on the same page when it comes to measurements and using incrementality as the example. There are a lot of brands out there where the center of excellence understands incrementality. They understand the need for how that is meant to fit into their measurement mix. But the CFO is used to looking at last click attribution, and the incentives are built around last click attribution. So trying to, from our perspective, you know, Malana and I both work outside of the advertisers, so I see my role, maybe our role. I don't want to speak on your behalf.
- [09:30]
Kunal Nagpal
Yeah.
- [09:31]
Zach Griffin
But to educate clients and to really bring them that subject matter expertise so they can help circulate those decisions and that information throughout the organization.
- [09:41]
Milana Moore
Yeah. At the end of the day, I don't even think it's the tech or the math behind everything because I think people have been in this industry forever, super smart people who understand the tech. It's the operational side of things. Getting everybody on the same page is so tough. So tough.
- [09:57]
Zach Griffin
Yeah, you're right.
- [09:58]
Kunal Nagpal
I think it's the complexity is not just in the Mathematics, but actually bringing it to life or try to mean something. Speaking of meaning something, we talk about privacy of the user and then we talk about personalization of the user. And people think like we're talking from both sides of the same app. Right. Which is not true, but it certainly seems so. Think of the last six months. Right? You've got cookies are going to be opt in. Actually, no, wait a minute. You don't want to talk about Showkis anymore. Moving on.
- [10:28]
Milana Moore
Right.
- [10:29]
Kunal Nagpal
And then you also have Google saying, my bad going to let IP actually continue in attribution. We were maybe, you know, too holier than Zao and we should change our stance because the market definitely appreciates the value of IP addresses. And then Apple came in and said, it's time, five years after we told everybody to think of SKR Network, we'll put our search ad also onto the same framework, which I think is finally, you know, we'll eat our own dog food sort of a thing. How do you take all of that and think of if all of that is affecting strategies actively, reactively?
- [11:06]
Milana Moore
Yeah, even you just talking through all of that, I'm like, I feel like marketers just want to take a deep breath because they're just like, I am numb to every iteration of scan. And now we have aak, which just feels like another iteration of Scan, but rebranded. But I will say, I think consumers, and we're all consumers here, right? We have apps, we love brands. We engage in the same way that we're trying to reach those consumers for our brands. We understand that there is a need to find balance between privacy and personalization. That is like 100% now. I have a sister who's 22, so she's gen Z, and I don't think that they care as much, but we'll see. But anyways, I'm going off on a tangent. I think when it comes to privacy, brands really have to have an agency or an MMP to help navigate the latest changes and updates that are happening in the tech framework. So, for example, AppsFlyer, we're partnered with Google and Apple to make sure that we are up to date on all of our tools and solutions. So as a brand, that's one less thing that you have to worry about if you have one of us in your corner and in your village per se to help you navigate that. But I think I'm also one of the few people that may be more optimistic about this latest ad attribution kit, because I think Apple is listening to demand and feedback from marketers that are saying, wait a minute, we don't have the granularity we need, we need to broaden the scope of platforms and ad formats. So we're seeing those changes come through and maybe adoption will increase. I know you are from a different perspective, Zach, on the optimism there. But I think the industry as a whole is trying to figure out how do we get this right. And I think we're seeing that play out with, oh, we're going to go back and change things. And even with Google, with cookies, I think we've been saying they're going to be deprecated soon for a long time. And it feels like cookies have kind of like cheated death. But even so, we don't think that brands should be relying on cookies 100%. There's something like 70% of users time is spent on their phone and 90% of that is in a mobile app. So even with these changes happening, I think brands really still need to get smart about how, how do we advance our signals and look to probabilistic and other solutions outside of just having cookies and deterministic methodologies. I don't know what your thoughts are.
- [13:28]
Zach Griffin
Yeah, I do have a slightly different take on some of the changes that we've seen in the last year and that is to say that they've been less paradigm shifts like we've seen in the past with ATT and really more of an entrenchment of the status quo. And if you think back, there was a moment that happened about a year ago that really didn't get a lot of attention because it ended up being a non event. But given the benefit of hindsight, it was actually a pretty significant moment. And what I'm referring to is when Apple was announcing Ad Attribution Kit, they were talking about privacy manifests and required reasons API and there was a lot of chatter in the industry at the time that that was going to be the mechanism that they were going to use to basically get rid of fingerprinting and that we're going to the mmps on the required reasons API and that would effectively maybe not put an end to the practice, but it would certainly create a large wholesale change and that never really happens. And that moment passed without much fanfare. So I think as agencies and as an mmp, a third party, we always want to come to our clients and sound smart and we want to say, you know, this is all of the things that you need to do in response to the change. And we don't like to say, you know what guys don't worry about it like we're, we're cool. This is going to make what we're doing right now a little bit better. Like with that attribution kit. I think the changes there are somewhat incremental. I hate to use that word to mean different things, but small. And the adoption has been fairly low. So I think it's been one of the quieter years in the industry and it really puts into perspective just how monumental a change ATT was when you think that four years ago Apple went through fully with this plan to change the opt in status and Google now three or four years later, is walking back their plans to do something similar.
- [15:29]
Kunal Nagpal
Yeah, no, I mean, look, we were born as a mobile app specialist and it's been equally fascinating and equally frustrating to see the world just ignore the monumental shift it was when ATT kicked in and how it completely disrupted the market and only when Meta said, oh, we're going to lose money. In my mind it was a much bigger shift in the conversation. But also how clients needed to now plan then to your point, cookies were going to be because Moshe spends are not on the browser anymore. It's still taking your front of mind disproportionate exposure because that was a world that people understood better.
- [16:13]
Milana Moore
Yeah. And I think we also have to take into account regional consumer behaviors. I was at TikTok before AppsFire and we talked about how APAC was mobile first and they've been mobile first for a long time. But I think when we think about North America, we're not there yet. And so a lot of brands are still relying on web. And to your point earlier about wavemaker, like you all have mobile experts, but I think here in this region it's just not a priority right now in the way that it would be in other, in other regions. So I don't know if you're seeing that too as well at Emobi.
- [16:49]
Kunal Nagpal
No, it's very similar me to your point of like, you know, regionalization and how the practices come in when Apple sits in Cupertino. So they're like, they have a worldview from Cupertino. But I think that worldview also changed rapidly in the last two, three years as the number of users of Apple devices just shifted wholesale to Asia. And they're like, wait a minute, we need to solve for these guys that's healthy for the ecosystem but not any less confusing. So I have a lot of sympathy for the advertisers trying to make sense of all of this.
- [17:21]
Zach Griffin
I just wanted to address some of the points that you had brought up. So we're seeing with a lot of clients at wavemaker, we work with some clients who are mobile first and have always been in the mobile space, but other clients who have a mobile app haven't put paid media dollars behind it and have really seen that as an engine for growth. And that's where we're seeing a lot of the growth in the mobile space as an agency is helping those clients understand how to really enter that space and be successful and use their app as a growth driver for their business. And they're able to go back internally and say, you know, we've driven this growth in the app and the organization can see how that's bringing in more revenue for the business as a whole.
- [18:05]
Milana Moore
Are you seeing the mobile app kind of act as like a test and learn channel for brands for now, or are you seeing some brands that are like, let's go all in.
- [18:16]
Kunal Nagpal
I heard it's the new frontier, like the best work. A lot of the brands had previously not focused enough and now this. Wait a minute. This is a channel we really need to spend time on?
- [18:26]
Zach Griffin
Yeah. I wouldn't say it's a test and learn to apply learnings to another part of the business. The app exists in its own right as a revenue driver and as a way to bring in more customers and engage with those customers.
- [18:40]
Milana Moore
Okay, got it, got it. So it's not just like a companion. Like, yeah, we have an app and it's just going to be here to help us convert when we need to. It's like, no, it's its own channel.
- [18:49]
Zach Griffin
Well, I think that that used to be the mindset. We, we have a companion app. We don't really know what to do with it.
- [18:56]
Milana Moore
Yeah.
- [18:56]
Zach Griffin
Now brands are seeing that the app can really be a driver of growth for them.
- [19:01]
Kunal Nagpal
How do you think you can have a conversation with the buy set and hey, say there is awareness that there's also, you know, the lower funnel focus and the lower funnel focus ends up in like an app download. Right. Really like app retargeting if you sort of see a dormancy, but really it's about finding that right user with the right lifetime value. How do you have those conversations of how do we get to the consumer in a full funnel way? Right. And it's solving for the lifetime value, not just for like get to them and then, you know, we'll worry about the next step layer. Yeah.
- [19:31]
Zach Griffin
I would say the first consideration there is the KPI when we look at performance marketing. So it's Important to find that balance between a metric that has enough volume that you can effectively optimize towards and a metric that is correlated in a meaningful way to revenue.
- [19:53]
Kunal Nagpal
Yeah.
- [19:53]
Zach Griffin
And sometimes because of latency, because of various factors, that metric isn't always the one that you want to optimize towards. So we see a lot of internal analytics teams at the brands that we work with trying to move back up the funnel and say, what's the next best KPI? What is an action that happens early on in my user journey that correlates to that user turning into a paid subscriber that correlates to lifetime value. So I think when we look at user acquisition, not just bringing in as many installs as possible, you know, we've seen cases where we've ran campaigns that optimize for installs and the clients have come back to us and said, you know, we, we've got a ton of new installs, but our registration rates have plummeted because those people weren't converting. And that's not a valuable user, clearly. So I think that's, that's number one. And then really thinking about the full funnel strategy, if you can build a brand, if you can activate media on channels like CTV, on YouTube, tell a story, you're going to find users who align much more closely with the value of your app rather than just the use case of your app.
- [21:12]
Milana Moore
Yeah, I agree. And when you talk about, oh, we have a ton of installs but only a few registrations, I'd be remiss if I didn't jump in and talk about fraud just a little bit because I think fraud is a big reason why you'll see some of that like upper funnel success and then lower funnel drop off is because of fraud. And so having an MMP to be able to detect that early on is really important. And so when brands are like, well, what's the value in having an MMP versus Firebase or something like being able to have a third party to be able to detect what is a valuable user and how you can optimize toward LTV is really important.
- [21:49]
Kunal Nagpal
I feel like anytime you see a ton of downloads and a fraction of registrants, it's just money wasted. End of discussion.
- [21:59]
Zach Griffin
Yeah, I think fraud is one of those things that's poorly understood and myself included, that everybody knows fraud is bad, but we don't know exactly what it looks like, exactly what to do about it. That's where having a partner like an MMP can be really valuable. Not just to have the technology to identify it. But to help advertisers understand this is what's happening. You know, these are the types of placements that have a high instance of fraud and here's a strategy for how to push back against that.
- [22:30]
Kunal Nagpal
You know, people talk about AI and it's all its applications, but from you guys vantage point, how are you seeing the application of AI come into life to improve the objectives of the campaigns?
- [22:45]
Milana Moore
Yeah, I think first and foremost the average user, when they think of AI, they think of ChatGPT or agentic AI, like going into your banking app and how can I help you today? Like yes, that is AI or even shortening creative strategies. Using AI to optimize toward better creatives is also a component and I think all of that is valuable, it's important. But when I think of AI in app growth, we're thinking of predictive analytics using AI to be able to say this is a great campaign, you need to optimize more without having a data analyst come into the platform and have to sort through the numbers and figure out what's actually working. Where am I seeing growth? And so I think we're going to see more of that across vendors and across partners implementing AI. We're already doing it at appswire and today there was a big announcement on the main stage about how we're incorporating AI. But I'll leave that to the team to talk more about because it is hot off the press. But I think AI we're going to see pop up in a way that is going to help marketers do their job better in a way that it's not replacing but additive to enhance any strategy and saying let me save this brain power to do something that is really creative or really strategic and vision focused rather than day to day optimization and making sure that the campaign delivers. That's what I'm going to see, I'm seeing happening in the app space. As far as AI, I don't know if you're seeing that as well.
- [24:16]
Zach Griffin
Yeah, from the agency side we work with a lot of different technology partners and we're seeing all sorts of AI tools pop up within those platforms to help navigate them. And I think it's important to understand how those tools work, how you can leverage them to use the tools in the most effective way possible. But I also think that it's incumbent on individuals tools to come up with their own AI strategy and not be reliant on a third party to build the AI tools for you. Because sometimes the, the challenges that you have are so specific or so personal to your workflow, that addressing them yourself and understanding how to do that becomes really valuable. And, and I'll give you a little story going back to year one of my career. One of the things that I had to do was download data from the ad platform, reformat it, and then re upload it so the data would show up in reports. I think every one of us has probably done something like that at some point in our careers and doing that every week. I said, you know, I could probably automate this. I put together an Excel workbook with a couple of Vlookup formulas. Pretty simple. I called it the awesome Uploader. And people loved the awesome Uploader. It was a revelation.
- [25:34]
Milana Moore
Shouldn't sound simple.
- [25:37]
Zach Griffin
But compared to what you can do today, it was incredibly simple. So as those tools have evolved, if I were to build something like that today, rather than going into Excel, I would ask ChatGPT or whatever your preferred AI is. How do I build an API call that talks to the ad platform and sends that data directly to the internal system that I'm using for reporting? And I don't know anything about writing API calls, I don't know anything about programming, but I can leverage those automated tools to build something that I would have never been able to build just with my inherent skillset.
- [26:22]
Kunal Nagpal
Conversation I recently had with somebody, actually, we were having lunch, we were talking about AI and so this application. And for some reason they ended up talking like the architecture rebel versus sort of, you know, the application level where everybody's like, let me put, as Google announced yesterday, let me put sound into my, you know, VO3 chat, text to video. But the architecture level is where chaos generally exists and manifests itself. So when, when you were talking about, you know, which API call should I generate to link this platform to my issue data mart and all conversation we were having is like, we're so used to thinking of everything in nice clean tables. We should actually step back and liberate ourselves from the, you know, the very hard construction that we built on our life of a table.
- [27:12]
Milana Moore
I'm Kelsey, I love a good table, but machines can't.
- [27:16]
Kunal Nagpal
Yeah, right. So instead of asking for an API that will fit into your data mart, how about you completely ignored the structure of that API and then say, I put an LLM. I just want to run it, run across and just make sense for it. And that is like truly liberating to think that suddenly I don't need to force me and the seven other stakeholders in this conversation that somebody probably decided like, you know, 13 years ago. And that person is long gone from the company. But we all like stuck to it.
- [27:44]
Milana Moore
Yeah.
- [27:45]
Kunal Nagpal
And I think that conversation, I was always like a huge believer in AI and its application in our industry. That conversation made me into like probably the biggest evangelist possible because it's the power is truly what you can imagine it.
- [28:00]
Zach Griffin
Yeah. And I think the thing that underlies all of that is having that growth mindset and asking the question, how can I do this better if I am repeating the same task over and over again, how can I find a better way to do this? And that hasn't changed since the beginning of our careers.
- [28:19]
Kunal Nagpal
Yeah, I think so. So what should the marketeers expect from the agency?
- [28:26]
Zach Griffin
At wavemaker, one of the concepts that we talk about, one of the cultural concepts that we talk about is this idea of positive provocation. The best outcome we could hope for with a client is for the client to say, I didn't know you can actually do that, but that's a really good idea. And that's not an easy reaction to get. And my belief is that to get to that place you really have to be a subject matter expert. You really need to know the underlying material so you can have that foundation of, you know, here's how the mobile ecosystem works, here's how things connect to each other and then you build up to that idea. The idea is the outcome, the solution is the outcome, but it's built on a foundation of deep subject matter expertise. So do your homework. That's, that's the moral of the story.
- [29:20]
Milana Moore
And when I think about a village, I think of everybody that's in this conversation. Right. As an mmp, sure. We have solutions that are there to support the client and have a single source of truth analytics across organic paid marketing teams. Having that North Star for all teams to be able to decide who, what decisions are we going to make about our marketing strategy. And that is the value of having an mmp. Right. Being able to be interoperable across all media partners, ecosystem partners, whoever. But I think there's real value in having an agency be the quarterback for your brand. You are truly an extension of the brand. And I believe beyond day to day optimization, campaign strategy, looking at delivery, you are setting the tone for the, the KPIs that the brand has and applying them to day to day campaigns beyond just like what's happening right now. But what's the future of this brand? What is the message that we want to come across? And like how do we deliver across various different channels? Right. And being the quarterback I think it's important, like year after year, you want to win Super Bowls, you want to get that. I didn't know we could do that. That is super valuable. And I don't think that that's going away. Especially as brands get more efficient, they have to do more with less. Agencies are invaluable in that regard. So I love partnering with agencies like you. That and I'm looking forward to doing more. And then also on the DSP front, it is important to have a really great DSP that can give you premium inventory that gets you as a brand in the right place at the right time, leveraging and optimizing toward the right MMP metrics. So being able to partner with a DSP that also has tied in capabilities integrations within MMP like Apps Flyer is great because then you're able to optimize and do everything that you need to do based off of whatever KPIs were set across teams. So then you have that synergy that's happening across the brand as well. Among all of us. We're all talking together and we have the brand's interests at heart. So I think that's important for your village.
- [31:26]
Zach Griffin
And one other thing that I'll add to that, and I think that you are hinting at this as well, is the idea of how having that experience across a broad number of brands, with agencies, you know, working across different brands, understanding how they differ in their approach to their marketing strategies, that's something that we can take and try to break some of those silos. That and the group think that naturally starts to develop within an individual agency. And it's yeah.
- [31:54]
Kunal Nagpal
Same as an MMP of a village versus a collection of people. I really love that. You know, we started off with keeping the advertiser front and center and we sort of ended this conversation again, thinking of them and their needs. Thank you.
- [32:07]
Milana Moore
Thank you for having. Yes.