Adult ADHD Tips – Leaning Life in Your Favor with Actress Ginger Gonzaga

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Adult ADHD Tips – Leaning Life in Your Favor with Actress Ginger Gonzaga

Podcast: Adult ADHD ADD Tips and Support
Host: Michael Joseph Ferguson
Guest: Ginger Gonzaga – Actress, Writer, Comedian, Director, Musician
Date: October 29, 2025

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Overview

This lively episode features a candid and insightful conversation between Michael Joseph Ferguson and multitalented artist Ginger Gonzaga, exploring how adults with ADHD (especially creative “hunter types”) can embrace their unique wiring to thrive. Ginger shares her journey in the entertainment industry, the importance of leaning life in your favor by playing to your strengths, developing resiliency, self-care, and how she’s learned to see her ADHD traits as assets rather than liabilities.

Whether you're in the arts, self-employed, or just seeking holistic strategies for adult ADHD, Ginger’s firsthand stories and practical tips are both relatable and inspiring.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Turning Perceived “Craziness” Into a Strength

• Acting as Her Authentic Self:
  Ginger describes how she learned to unapologetically bring her “wild card” nature into auditions and on set, reframing behaviors often labeled as “crazy” as creative strengths. She asserts that embracing her ADHD-fueled spontaneity and giving directors lots of comedic, off-the-cuff options ultimately benefits productions.

• Establishing Expectations:
  By setting the precedent early in auditions or jobs, she conditions collaborators to expect her unconventional approach—leading to professional freedom and trust.

  “If I just come out the gate as a wild card... I’m doing it the Ginger way and you’re either going to hire me or you’re not.”
  — Ginger Gonzaga, 10:21

  “People see it as a strength. And in my profession, the more you know what you’re doing, the easier it is for the director.”
  — Ginger Gonzaga, 11:01

2. Comedy & Improv as ADHD Training Grounds

• Improv’s Rewards for Impulsivity:
  Training at Groundlings and Second City strengthened Ginger’s confidence, rewarding her ADHD-style, fast-thinking, and impulsive expression.

• Stand-Up’s Lessons on Rejection & Resilience:
  Regular failure in stand-up made her less self-blaming and helped frame rejection as a routine part of creative life, not a personal flaw.

  “Improv in particular forces you—it rewards you for literally being impulsive, for saying exactly what’s on your head in that moment.”
  — Ginger Gonzaga, 14:53

  “Sometimes the exact same set will be loved at one place and hated somewhere else... It’s not necessarily you.”
  — Ginger Gonzaga, 15:53

3. ADHD, Rejection Sensitivity, and Resilience

• Navigating Constant Rejection:
  Ginger compartmentalizes rejection; she’s more focused on doing work she’s proud of than others’ judgments.

• Finding Purpose:
  The deep need to create—rather than simply wanting to—is what fuels her ongoing engagement, even when the industry is difficult.

• Knowing When to Step Away:
  Not all struggles are “worth it”; strong resistance or harm may mean the path isn’t aligned with your purpose.

  “Knowing that it’s my purpose... helps me get back [up]. Especially now when our industry is getting really weird.”
  — Ginger Gonzaga, 19:58

  “If you really don’t want to be resilient in something, it may not be your purpose.”
  — Ginger Gonzaga, 20:08

4. Personal ADHD Management & Self-Care

• Late Diagnosis Struggles:
  Ginger, like many women, was diagnosed at 35; much of her earlier life felt like “just raw-dogging life” without tools or understanding.

• Toxic Relationships and Brain Speed:
  Fast, nonlinear ADHD thought patterns can make people with ADHD vulnerable to manipulative relationships, as they “problem-solve” for dopamine/serotonin hits.

• Tools & Hacks:

  • Listmaking & Planners: Advocates giant poster boards, visual tools, sticky notes, and planners to manage memory and motivation.
  • Capturing Ideas: Records poetry, ideas, and unfinished work knowing that they’ll have future value (e.g., lyrics from old poems repurposed in films).
  • Physical Cues: Notes to self (“if I just...”) and visual reminders keep her grounded and protect against self-abandonment.
  • Coaching & Tracking Progress: Regular check-ins (including with Michael) provide accountability, structure, and reminders of completed accomplishments.

  “Not knowing was the biggest struggle... You’re just raw-dogging life.”
  — Ginger Gonzaga, 23:05

  “I never stop having ideas... You’re like, how do I finish some of these things?”
  — Ginger Gonzaga, 26:19

5. Navigating Creativity and Multiple Talents

• Focusing the ‘Firehose’:
  Chooses priority projects based on purpose, bucket-list dreams, potential to uplift others, and reclaiming lost aspects of herself.

• Nothing Wasted:
  Free-flowing creativity means everything she creates (poems, paintings, etc.) will eventually find a use.

  “If I work in a relatively free-flowing way... Almost everything that I’ve made can eventually be used.”
  — Ginger Gonzaga, 30:18

6. Rituals for Staying Connected and Grounded

• Recognizing Disconnection:
  Having experienced childhood trauma and masking, Ginger is now attuned to her energy and uses routines, self-talk, and permission to reconnect to her “inner little kid.”

• Chore-Linked Self-Care:
  Builds hacks where mental exhaustion equals time to do a “mindless” productive activity, like cleaning.

• Decision-Making Aids:
  Carries/writes cards with mantras/rules (e.g., “If I say ‘I’ll just’... it’s the wrong decision”).

  “I used to say my house at times looks like a self-help crime scene because I’m just posting things all over the place.”
  — Ginger Gonzaga, 36:59

7. The Power of Community and Support

• ADHD “Tribe” Discovery:
  After diagnosis, she noticed her closest friends were also undiagnosed ADHDers—mutually supportive, exchanging tips, and normalized by each other's quirks.

• Artist Friends as Emotional Lifeline:
  Shares voice notes, compassion, non-judgment, and persistence with other artists who inherently understand vulnerability and out-of-the-box thinking.

  “Once you find out you’re ADHD, you realize everyone you’ve kept in your life... is ADHD also.”
  — Ginger Gonzaga, 42:35

8. Media Landscape & Survival Strategies

• Industry Flux & Uncertainty:
  Post-COVID, streaming, and AI have upended entertainment—no one has clear answers on how to navigate this instability.

• DIY Mindset:
  Ginger advocates for focusing on what matters, creating work without waiting for studio approval, and not being married to industry “rules.”

  “There will be so much AI nonsense-created creativity... maybe there will eventually be a premium on real stuff.”
  — Ginger Gonzaga, 47:32

9. Squirrels, Instagram, and Finding Joy

• Personal Joys:
  Ginger shares the light-hearted story of her backyard squirrel hotel (including “boundary issues” and weather problems), exemplifying her sense of fun and resourcefulness.
• Authenticity Online:
  Encourages listeners to find her on Instagram (@gingerthejester) for more creative, silly, and heartfelt content.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Authenticity:
  “If I just come out the gate as a wild card... I’m doing it the Ginger way and you’re either going to hire me or you’re not.”
  (Ginger Gonzaga, 10:21)

• On ADHD as Superpower:
  “By giving myself permission to unapologetically be myself, maybe at the risk of being called crazy, is actually what allows me to do what I’m allowed to do—which is have a very, very free-throwing brain. Which is where ADHD is a superpower.”
  (Ginger Gonzaga, 12:16)

• On Purpose and Resilience:
  “I always think in the arts, there’s a difference between wanting to do something and needing to do something. And I need to do all of the art that I think of or that I do. So there’s no retiring for me.”
  (Ginger Gonzaga, 18:56)

• On Support Networks:
  “Once you find out you’re ADHD, you realize everyone you’ve kept in your life for the past 10 years is ADHD also.”
  (Ginger Gonzaga, 42:36)

• On Survival in a Changing Industry:
  “Just keep making the things that are important to you, but try to find a way that you don’t have to ask for permission for it.”
  (Ginger Gonzaga, 49:08)

• On Rituals & Self-Help:
  “My house at times looks like a self-help crime scene because I’m just posting things all over the place.”
  (Ginger Gonzaga, 36:59)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Leaning Into “Crazy” as Power [08:51–12:24]
• The Groundlings, Improv, Stand-Up, and ADHD [14:18–16:29]
• Rejection, Purpose, and Resilience [17:28–22:05]
• Late Diagnosis, Vulnerability to Toxic Relationships [23:05–27:26]
• Managing the Idea Firehose [27:26–31:44]
• Creative Rituals and Repurposing Work [31:44–36:08]
• Self-Care, Planners, and Decision Hacks [36:08–40:15]
• Support Systems and ADHD Friendship [42:14–45:44]
• Navigating a Turbulent Media/Entertainment Landscape [46:17–49:20]
• Squirrels and Instagram Joy [49:20–51:13]

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a masterclass in turning neurodiverse challenges into advantages, from finding community to trusting your creative instincts. Ginger Gonzaga’s honesty, playfulness, and practical strategies—grounded in her life experience—make this essential listening for any adult ADHD-er, artist, or out-of-the-box thinker.

Check out Ginger on Instagram (@gingerthejester) and her award-winning short film “Mermaid.”
For support, resources, and group coaching, visit drummerandthegreatmountain.com

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Transcript

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Coming up on this episode, and I.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Watched directors let this person do whatever they wanted and they would be like, well, that's just so and so. They're crazy. And when I heard that, I was like, I want to be crazy. You know what I mean?

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Permission has been given.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Yes, I was. Yeah. So I just, I realized, like my, the way that I digested that was if I just come out the gate as a wild card, which is what I do at all my auditions, it may not be what you want, but you might eventually like it. I don't care. I'm doing it the ginger way and you're either going to hire me or you're not. So I know I'm going to be a wild card and I know I'm going to give you eight different options and they're all going to be very adhd all over the place options. But that's going to help them in the edit. So I'm going to come in free. And you know, the, the pejorative term for that would be crazy. But when you, when you set that up right away, people see it as a strength. And in my profession, the more you know what you're doing, the easier it is for the director.

[Bahman Saram]

Welcome to the Drummer and the Great Mountain, a podcast where we share effective tips and practices for working with adult ADD ADHD in a natural, effective way without the use of medications. Each episode, join me, your host, Bahman Saram, along with the author of the Drummer and the Great Mountain, Michael Joseph Ferguson. Join Michael and myself in an interactive discussion of sharing our stories as we journey together in transforming what can be the gift of being what we call hunter types. This podcast is intended to be your audio companion to the book written by Michael, who joins me each episode where we both will strive to foster dialogue, give you our personal insights, and share both of our experiences on this similar path that we are all on. Our intention and hope is that along with the book, this podcast gives you an additional perspective as you listen to us delve deeper into each chapter of the book to give you even more tools to go along with what it is that you are reading. Visit us at drummerandthegreatmountain.com to purchase the book and look for more tools, tips and updates as well as giving us feedback on this podcast, join our growing global community of creative types, entrepreneurs and out of the box thinkers on our shared journey. Welcome to the Drummer and the Great Mountain podcast.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Welcome everyone. Thanks for tuning in. I'm your host, Michael Joseph Ferguson. Hope everyone's doing well. In continuing with the 10 year anniversary celebration of this podcast, today we are joined by Ginger Gonzaga. Many of you are familiar with her work. She's an actress, writer, comedian, director, musician, known for her standout role as Nikki in Marvel's she Hulk, the lead in the CBS series True Lies, and her memorable performances in shows such as Kidding, the Doubloss Brothers, Togetherness and countless other movies and TV shows. You are familiar with her work. In this conversation we'll discuss how to lean life in your favor when you're wired this way, which is so important. It's something I really stress on this podcast. Specifically, we'll discuss the importance of learning what your strengths are and having the courage to break free of common approaches to ensure you are more likely to succeed. I know there's a lot of people who also listen to this podcast from the entertainment industry and it's a very tenuous time. There's a lot of things shifting and changing. We'll be discussing that a little bit, just sort of survival strategies. We'll go into that a little bit and we'll also discuss how to keep yourself inspired and build a career based on your strengths. So even if you are not in the entertainment industry, there's a lot of really valuable insights that Ginger has in this episode. So I really think this is a fantastic conversation. She's really fun to talk to. This is a really fun episode. Me and Questa are big fans of her work. I think you guys will really enjoy it. So please stay tuned for that. Okay, so one quick announcement before we get into the interview. We will be holding another two month online weekly support group starting on November 18th and we specifically designed this group to provide you with optimum support as you're going through and wrapping up your year, finishing up projects that you may want to complete, navigating overwhelm that comes up during the holidays, getting support with planning, exercise, nutrition, self care, all the topics we discuss on this podcast. You'll be joined by people who share your same wiring so they have similar strengths and challenges and tendencies as you. So it's a very open and supportive environment. And if you're feeling a bit isolated this time of year, perhaps struggling with implementing some of the suggestions we discussed on this podcast or in my book. This group can be very, very beneficial. So space is limited and a number of the people who have taken our previous group are already signing up for the new group, but we do have a couple slots available if you'd like to join us, go to drummerinthegreatmountain.com group I will leave a link in the description of this episode and hope you can join us. Okay, so we're pleased to have with us Ginger Gonzaga. As I mentioned, she's an actress, writer, stand up comedian, director, and musician. You've seen her in countless TV shows such as True Lies and Marvel's She Hulk. She's been in movies such as Seth MacFarlane's Ted and many others. As a writer, Ginger has sold shows to Warner Brothers and hbo. She's also written and starred in multiple short films, including your Day with Josh Ritter. That's a very powerful film. Definitely check that one out. And beyond acting and writing, she also sings and composes. And for her comedy and improv background, which I found very interesting, she trained at the ground Links and Second City. And you can find her @gingerthejester on Instagram and other social media platforms. That's how to find her. That's the best way to see what she's up to. It's always entertaining. And her latest short film, mermaid, which she wrote, directed, starred in and scored, received top honors at Oscar, BAFTA qualifying Louisiana Shorts International Film Festival. And I'll leave a link in the description for multiple ways you can find her. And this is a really great episode and it was very lively and we both were having a pretty bad day going into this episode. I won't mention what was going on with her, but for me, I was just very off that day. And I had to just say up front, like, okay, I'm feeling really off. And you'll hear us talk about that at the beginning, and it turned into a really great episode. So I hope you enjoy it. And here's Ginger. So, Ginger, thank you so much for joining us.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Yeah, thank you. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

All right, so you're like a creative powerhouse. And I've had, like such a gift to be able to talk with you many times over the past year, year and a half, something like that. And I've watched you with your creative process. And one of the things that really struck me about how you move through the world, and I think it's so important. It's such a key piece when we're sensitive, quirky, amazing human beings with lots of creative energy is that we have to lean life in our favor. And what I've watched with you is when you have like an acting gig coming up or you're writing or you're producing or just things that you've done in the past. I've heard you talk about this, you seem to be really skilled at knowing this is what works for me, and I'm going to lean this opportunity in my favor. I would love to hear a little bit about how you got there. Were you always like that, or did you really put some energy towards building that skill set?

[Ginger Gonzaga]

That's so funny. I feel like the first thing that makes me think of is, in particular with acting. So when. When I'm acting, what works best for me is to be really free and to improvise as much as possible and, you know, basically do whatever I want. If I'm allowed to do that, then I do a great job and everybody wins. But when I first started acting, there was this real. You know, I do a lot of comedy. The first series that I did, it was. There was so much misogyny, and it was like, all the male actors would get to improvise, and they would give them their fun day of being comedians and improvising. Improvise. And then they would come to the. And then they would be out of time, and they would be like, oh, okay. And then we would. Me and my friend Kate would do it in two takes, and they'd just be so grateful that we had it memorized, because, of course, we're little girl scouts and we're professional. We have everything memorized, and we didn't get to play. And I would just be like, what? Like, what did you even hire me for? Like, this is so unfair. So it really bothered me. And then I got onto another show on Showtime, and it was. There was a cast member that was kind of notoriously. I don't know, I guess notoriously difficult. I didn't find this person difficult, but that's the lore that they came with. And I watched directors let this person do whatever they wanted, and they would be like, well, that's just so and so. They're crazy. And when I heard that, I was like, I want to be crazy. You know what I mean?

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Permission. I was like, has been given.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Yes, I was. Yeah. So I just. I realized, like, my. The way that I digested that was if I just come out the gate as a wild card, which is what I do in all my auditions, it may not be what you want, but you might eventually like it. I don't care. I'm doing it the ginger way, and you're either gonna hire me or you're not. So I would do that in my auditions. I'd be the complete wild card. Then I knew if they were picking me, they were signing up for crazy Wild card Ginger, right. And then so once I got onto set, I'm the crazy person and I would see them do it to me. Other actors would be like, even this even happened on she hulk. They were like, oh, but this and this and this. And I saw the director. Yeah, but that's just Ginger.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

And it's basically.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

But Ginger is crazy. But what she's really saying is, well, Ginger's allowed to do whatever she wants because I've already kind of established, hey, yeah, I'm going to come in free. And you know, the, the pejorative term for that would be crazy. But when you, when you set that up right away, people see it as a strength. And in my profession, the more you, the more you know what you're doing, the easier it is for the director. So I know I'm going to be a wildcard and I know I'm going to give you eight different options and they're all going to be very adhd, all over the place options. But that's going to help them in the edit. So it's kind of like backing yourself up to be like, no, this is how I work. And I. And it's going to help everyone. I had a therapist once say, what's best for me is best for the team. And I don't think you can say that to everybody. It's not good in the hands of a narcissist, you know, but it's in this, in certain instances, what's best for me as far as the way that I work, knowing how I work is best for the team. And then the director doesn't have to worry and the editors don't have to worry because I gave them so many options. And so by, I guess giving myself permission to unapologetically be myself, maybe at the risk of being called crazy, is actually what allows me in acting to do what I'm allowed to do, which is have a very, very free throwing brain. Which is what, what. Where ADHD is a superpower.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

You know, that's, that's awesome. I love it. Because you're taking. Because we just talked right up right before we got on the mic about, I was saying, you know, I just, I learned from performing and myself, because I was having an off day, I said, I need to tell Ginger this because otherwise I'm going to be sitting on top of that. And I guess it's the same thing when you've got like, you've got all this creative energy and if you go into a situation where you feel like you're packing that in and you're contorting too much, it's just not going to come off good. Yeah.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

And I think that even you articulating that saying, like, oh, I'm having enough morning, what that does to the person who's listening is I know that you're in control, that you're aware of what you're normally like. You're aware that you feel off today, so you're not a loosey goosey, you know, thing that's about to explode. And I think it's the same thing, like, when I'm acting like if I'm doing a voiceover job and I'm like, you guys, I. I feel like I have a lot of acid reflux today or whatever. Now they're comforted because they know, oh, this is just a temporary thing. We just need to give her 15 minutes to go blow bubbles in a straw. It's not. They no longer have the anxiety of, oh, no, is her voice broken? You know what I mean, for the next two hours or something. It's like, no, actually, I know the answer. I know myself. Therefore, everyone else doesn't need to have anxiety about what I'm going to produce today.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Yeah. Okay. And then let me. So I want to understand, because I'm thinking back to, like, as I'm thinking about what you've done, and you've got a comedy pedigree. How much did Groundlings and Second City. Right. Were you connected with Second City as well?

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

So, like, how much did that lean into this? Like, did you already have this? Or was. Did that give you even more of a permission to really blow out and just like, I'm just gonna be exactly who I am? Yeah.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

It's funny, I feel like I had. I'm a broken record as to the value of speech and debate, which is what I did in high school. And in that program, we learn a lot of, like, spontaneous speaking and stuff, and you get very much in your power. And I think I kind of. In college, I didn't fit in at my college. I went to UC Santa Barbara after going to Berkeley, and it was just not. It's such a neurotypical school. I can't explain it. It was very. And it's the beach. And I really didn't fit in. So I feel like I started to mask a lot and squash a lot of that. And thankfully, I graduated early so I could go to the Groundlings and Second City. And then that kind of brought it back. And what's so great about I think everyone should take an improv class and everyone should try standup because what it does, improv in particular forces you. It rewards you for literally being impulsive, for saying exactly what's on your head in that moment. There's a, there's a show at the Groundlings that they do on Wednesdays and it's like the fastest form of improv ever. And you keep clapping in and you just. The first funny thing that came to your mind is what comes out. And it never fails if you actually operate like that. And I think that that's like a good lesson for life too. Like we should be calling things out the way that we see them or we should be saying, hey, that doesn't work or yes, that works, or please don't do that to me or what. And so improv is really great for that. And then stand up, which I did when I was a lot younger, it just forces you to not care about failure. It's impossible to do standup without failing multiple times. And it also shows you that sometimes the exact same set will be loved at one place and hated somewhere else. So it's not necessarily you, you know, so you have it for as brutal as stand up is, you kind of learn to not have as much self blame, I think.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Yeah, well, because you're doing it over and over, right? So if it was just one and done, you'd be like, oh, that was the worst thing ever and I'm never going to recover from this. But because you know you're going to be doing it again, that's part of the play of it, right?

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Yeah. And you will be completely shocked. Like I would do a set at the improv and I would destroy and then I would go do a set at the Comedy Store, the same set, and it was crickets. And so then, I mean that's like now you're problem solving and you. A really good stand up's gonna adjust to what the crowd is and what the lights are. But it also just reminds me that there's just so many variables and you kind of, you become even more and more of a problem solver. Which may be why there's so many ADHD standups. Because it also because of the problem solving. Serotonin.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

I never thought about that. I never thought about that. Makes total sense. Of course. So, okay, so let's ask about. So let's look at this. So let's start looking at the ADHD stuff. Right? So yeah, rejection, sensitivity. Because like there it's right in front of you is that something you've struggled with at all? And if so, like, is that the mega. Was that part of the mechanism that helped you with it?

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Huh. It's funny. I feel like my. Yeah, I mean, it's funny. Like, I don't have, like, my rejection sensitivity is, like, very compartmentalized in different areas. Like, I guess for acting, when we used to go into rooms and.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

I.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Didn'T really care as long as I did what I wanted to do, the version that I wanted to do. And even if I didn't get the job, that Ginger version had a long arm of rewards because the casting director would remember it, and then they would hire me in a different job because they saw what I did in another one. So I don't know. I mean, we're constantly getting rejected in our. In our profession, so I don't know if I've actually. I don't know if I've, like, mastered that or anything, but I'm definitely used to it.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Yeah. So that's a good question. So how do you get back up? So that's one of the notes I had here is I always wanted to know, what is it that. How do you. How did you develop resiliency? Because you've. Especially with stand up. Oh, my God, you must have been. You have to keep getting back up. What's. Do you have any tips on that? Of just how, like, you've had a terrible night or. Or the gig went really bad or the acting day went really terrible? How. What is your mental process of getting yourself back up again?

[Ginger Gonzaga]

I have a couple thoughts on that, I guess. Well, I always think in the arts, there's a difference between wanting to do something and needing to do something. And I need to do all of the art that I think of or that I do. So there's no retiring for me. And I've seen actors quit, and I get it. And it's not a fun. It's a very yucky business. But I personally at least know it is my purpose to be an artist. And so that. Knowing that it's my purpose, knowing that what I write is related to how much I care about certain narratives for women or. You know, I had sold a show to HBO that was about mental health. Like, that's. It's all very important to me. So the purpose helps me get back. Especially now when our industry is getting really weird and we don't even see people in person anymore with auditions and stuff. But also, I've seen.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

I've.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

I've seen, like, when something is not Someone's purpose as well, and how that can be. How those clues should be listened to. Like, if you really don't want to be resilient in something, it may not be your purpose is my thinking. And when I was in college, I taught LSAT prep and SAT prep. So that's how I made my money. And whenever I taught LSATs, I was next to the kids that. Or college students that did that were studying for the mcat. So it's all these kids that are like, I'm gonna go to med school. Cause my mom or dad said that that's the path for me. And they would come and hang out with me afterwards and vent about the MCAT or how difficult it was. And I remember this one student who was representative of a lot of students, literally physically pulling out his hair in front of me, and he was so frustrated. He hated all of the mcat. It was so hard. And listen, them cats are. I wouldn't be able to do a good job with them cat. I do a good job on lsat. And I just. I didn't understand. I wouldn't have known how to articulate it at the time, but I was like, you shouldn't feel like this. This is not your path. You know, like this. If it's hurting. If you feel like you need to physically pull out your hair in order to accomplish a goal, and that is. That will hurt you, then that's not your purpose. And I've done other. You know, I majored in international relations. That wasn't my purpose. I did a minor in Chinese, and I was in China, and I was like, wow, I do not want to be here. And so those times where I just pushing through was literally a breaking point. Like, kind of just re. Guided me. I wish it had been a lot faster, but guided me to be like, oh, I'm actually not supposed to do this. So for as difficult as my profession is, and as much as it sometimes doesn't make sense or, you know, there's discrimination, whatever, I still love it so much that I. I want to keep doing it. And I will find other ways. You know, I will write a show or if I'm feeling like I'm not being seen, maybe it's time to do, you know, more live performance again. I just. I. The things that I want to say, I want to say. So that is what keeps me resilient.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Yeah, well, it's a. Have to. It's like. Like, I get it as you're talking, I'm like, yeah, you just. This is what you have to do. This is it. There's no questioning it. And you've been able to, to do that and lean. I mean you've got the skills, you've clearly put the time and energy into your skill set. When you came upon us, the podcast and the book, and we've been interacting for a while. So I want to get a little bit of like, what's the ADHD aspect of your life that has been a struggle? And how does your self care strategy and your inner dialogue, how do you, how do you work with it? What's the, what are the things that you're like, oh, okay, yeah, the adhd, that's definitely, definitely me. I'm wired that way. And what, and how do you manage, like, how does it, how does this just. So people have context of like, okay, what are the things that show up for you in your life? And then how do you manage them?

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Well, the biggest struggle was not knowing. And like, you know, I think the average age for women to be diagnosed is 35. And I was 35. And so you're just raw, dogging life essentially. You know, you're just. And, and, and there's so much randomness. I mean it makes so much sense that I'm adhd. And when you look back, I look at myself as a good. That's the way I just pulled up a picture of me and my friend at Berkeley the other day and like we had taken the eyes, we cut up the eyes of a magazine and then we put them on our closed eyes. It's just the weirdest. I'm like that ground lady. Like, look at these, look at these two creative goofy weirdos. Like, but you know, they're just, they didn't study it in women as much. And I think, you know, it's so obvious. But you know, my understanding, even when I was diagnosed, when the therapist instantly told me I was ADHD and this is after I had had years of therapy, but I was just like, what? I'm not a rowdy eight year old boy. Like, what are you talking about? But when I think about the hyper focus that I had during speech and debate and all that stuff, it's so obvious. But so not knowing was the biggest struggle and another struggle that I heard. Your friend who does your British outro.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Oh, Lauren, okay, you listen to the podcast.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Yes, yes, yes, I listen to that episode is ADHD does. There's a lot of things that will prime you or individuals to be attractive to a more abusive person in a relationship. But with, with adhd, you know, someone will be a narcissist. Let's say I've dated narcissist, sociopath, psychopaths, all the things. So when I got diagnosed, it was literally right after my final, I think, for life relationship with a. With a very abusive sociopath. And. And I didn't realize, you know, a sociopath is literally playing a game. How can I destroy this lovely person with empathy? And we are unknowingly playing a game, which is how can I problem solve to get a serotonin hit, to get back to the time where they were nice that one time. So you don't realize you're getting lit up by rodeo clowning with this toxic person and so you're doing your ADHD thing. And I remember I had a psychiatrist at the time tell me, just play chess. I was like, oh, my goodness. If I had just sat down and.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Played chess.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

I would have gotten that same feeling. I didn't need this. Yeah. But I was just like, I told so many people after that, I was like, hey, you can play chess. It doesn't have to be this way. But the other problem with ADHD and toxic relationships like that is that I learned for myself, especially with the therapist that diagnosed me is, you know, our thoughts are traveling so fast, and if you combine that with any PTSD or any hypomania, it's even faster. So I would look back at that relations and I would remember my thought pattern. I called them drive by sentences, as in sentences that were very important that I never caught. So I would go, I need to write my HBO show. I think I'm in danger. I think this person could kill me. Oh, my gosh, I have to do the dishes. Oh, I love my dog so much. So you have five sentences that all flew by. Two of them you probably really should have paid attention to, but that your brain is literally going too fast. And I didn't have your tools. I didn't know all of the things that I could do, especially with food and more meditation, and I just didn't know. I think the beauty of being diagnosed is you can literally see how textbook you are and then proceed from there. And it's really, really helpful. So that's all a struggle. And then just for my life or for my profession and everything, I mean, I just never stop having ideas. So then you're like, Well, I have 20,000 ideas. I am the type of ADHD where I could, if I want to kill myself, to get a number of them finished. But then you just have so Many interests. You're like, how do I finish some of these things? And more recently I've developed like a little bit of a hack for that, but that's always a tricky one, I think, you know, I coach with you, you know.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Oh yeah, well, that's it. Well, that's the thing. It's like you've got like we are idea generating machines. Right. It's just the creativity and it's, you know, there's a spectrum of that and there's some people are just at the high end of it and if you can then take that and ground it into a skill like acting, stand up, writing, then you're golden. But to get there, especially when you've got the fire hose of creativity flowing through you, is work. So. And I had a note, I had a question on this, I wrote this question down. So you have lots of talents, your act, writing, stand up singing, like outstanding singer and music, directing and producing. So how do you. So to your point, how do. What have you found has been helpful to say I am going to stay focused on this until it's done. Because you do that. Clearly you do that. So what is, what keep. How do you turn, turn off the other things? Do you write ideas down so you don't lose them? Like what's the thing that keeps you on track when you're not on stage or you're not on a set? What are the practice that you practices that you found helpful in grounding the fire hose and saying, I'm going to focus it here on this thing? Just this right now.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Yeah, I think, I mean there's so many different things that go into that. I wish that it was always just my gut so I would know. No, no, no, do this. And there are a couple projects that are very gut specific. Like I have to make this thing, worry about the other one later. Some of it is by necessity. So if I'm on a show, I'm working 15 hours a day for six months and it's not possible to do anything else. So that's what I'm doing. You know, I'm acting. Good luck trying to do anything else. Well, what I do is. I ask you what I do every time.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

I'm kidding. But you were doing this way before you met me, so I want to understand. Like something must have kept you going because, I mean, just developing the skill set you have, just that alone is its own thing.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Yeah, I mean some. I made little like icons for myself the other day for. I don't know if this is the Answer. This is what I did the other day for choosing what I wanted to do. And one of the icons was like this is a purpose of mine.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Right.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

So it was like a picture of a voice or something. And another one was this is like a bucket list dream type of thing. And this one helps me uplift people in a way that I want to. And this other one gives me more visibility so that I can uplift and have a larger voice for in this way that I want to. And then, and another one was, this is me reclaiming something that I lost when I've abandoned myself in the past. So I kind of made all these little like stickers I guess for myself and I was kind of choosing which had the most of those things more recently. That's what I did. But I also have realized that if I. It may take a little longer for the project to be made. But if I work in a relatively free flowing way, I've noticed now and just living as long as I have, almost everything that I've made can eventually be used. So like I wrote, I was sad, right? So I'm like, oh, how am I going to cope? Great. I actually allowed myself to take the time and write a poem. Okay, this is now, I don't know, seven years ago I have that poem on my computer. Now I'm making a film and that film I'm doing all the music for. Well, where are the lyrics from that music for those songs gonna come from? A seven year old poem?

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Ah, there it is. You captured it.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Yeah. So I have these things that I needed for coping that were I allowed myself the time. And now I have all these lyrics that again are more about my purpose of what I'm saying. And then now they're making its way into a film that is about what I'm saying. And they got used and I didn't have to think of, I didn't write any lyrics, I just stole for myself.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

You know, and so much deeper then it's got so much more depth and life experience woven into it.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Yeah. Or even just like painting, like I'm like, oh, I'm wasting time painting, even though that is therapeutic for me. But eventually I used all those paintings to decorate a lot of my house and it works, you know, so it's just like free, I don't know, decorations kind of. I don't know, it's a little weird to have all my paintings in my house. But it was also free, you know what I'm saying? Like I have these.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

And it sounds like you've got a good relationship with your. Your creative, like, your creativity. Like, you've, You've really create. You've created the space for the muses to show us.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Yeah, I don't know. There's a really great book, Soul Code. This has nothing to do with anything. This is a side quest. There's this really great book, Soul Code, and I've never read the whole thing because I'm adhd, but the first couple of chapters are really great. And they talk about. They kind of talk about, like, you'll notice if you read it, they'll say you might have had a memory like this when you're little. And if you. If you use the first couple chapters of those books and just write in the margin, you'll remember all of those things. Like, I remember acting to a mirror when I was a kid. I remember, like, going door to door to my neighbor's houses in character. Or I remember thinking, when I was six, like, I think I could write a sad story. Like, these are these random thoughts that you have as a child. And if you look at that book as an adult and kind of write down those memories that come up for you, it illuminates a little more of like, oh, yeah, this is something I'm. This is something I've always been. Been doing, essentially.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Yeah. I mean, it's. And you've. You've given the space to do it. It sounds like you didn't have a choice. I mean, what I'm hearing from you is like, this is just you. You showed up and this is. This is. You're just gonna do it.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Yeah, I think that. And then. But also, there's been times where I've completely abandoned myself in a more like, masking kind of way. And I've seen the consequences of that in a time that you can lose, you know, anything that I was studying in college, as interested as I was, was in it, I was not happy. And I wasn't happy because it was just me being robotic kind of and just, I guess, trying to be normal.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the key. I mean, I want to go back to that thread you were saying earlier too. Is that, like. I think I always associate creativity and our inner little kid is the same thing. It's. It's the. That magical thing that is connected. It's got mysterious powers. It's. It's not. And when you're not connected to it, you're flat, you're depressed. It's like a communication to. I often think sometimes and this is not clinical depression is all that's very different. But many times when people are depressed, especially with adhd, it's because we're not connected into that inner little kid that's just alive and it's connected to its needs, and it just does what it wants because this is what it wants to do. And I know for me, when I was going through my 20s and I kind of gone through a lot, you know, especially my. My childhood and stuff, I had a lot of trauma that I worked on. And so it was really uncomfortable during my early 20s to be around kids. I felt really awkward. And as I did that work on myself and as you were talking about the personal growth work, kids would start hanging out with me again. They'd be like, oh, he's fun. And I was like, wow, that is like you're just projecting out that energy of it's okay to be a little kid. That life force. Kids pick up on it instinctively, whereas adults, we all can kind of pretend and mask, like you said, and. But it. We can look happy, but then we go back to ourselves, you know, our house or we're miserable again. So with you now, what are the rituals that you do to keep you alive and vital and keep your energy vital so that you don't fall back into masking or things that anxiety, like, how do you manage some of those pieces?

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Wait, I got distracted again.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

I'll simplify it. Okay. So are you aware when you're disconnected because we all. If you're an adult, we have to adult. And adulting gets us disconnected from that life force, that inner little kid. Are you aware of that when it's happening? And what are the rituals that you have in place that reconnect you to that. That life force again?

[Ginger Gonzaga]

I see. Well, what got me distracted is I had a lot of childhood trauma. And I was weird around kids, too, to the point where I remember telling a friend 1. I remember realizing it was weird because I told my friend, I was like, yeah, I have this new apartment. And there were kids outside playing. And he went, that's so beautiful. And I was like, oh, wait, what? Like, I realized. Like, I realized I was wrong for what opinions I had that I was just so.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Ew.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Like, why are their children enjoying their lives like they want to outside? I was so just, like, turned off by it because I was not okay, but. Yeah, but how do I stay? What are my rituals for getting connected to it? Well, I guess allowing myself the time to. I'm a queen of lists. And, you know you know, I have way too many.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

What is it?

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Planners and something. I finally have a planner that I think is like my guy. But I guess I don't judge myself on how much I have to go back to the drawing board and put everything on poster board. You know, like even just to remember like for as much as I have a really great long term memory, like the simple things that are needed for us, like get sleep. It's amazing how you will literally forget that. Hey, that could help you out. Or maybe that's your problem. So you know, I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So I guess I'm always kind of looking at what I've written down on a really large poster board. And when I, when I think of little tricks for myself, I, I do like my, I used to say that my house at times looks like a self help crime scene because I'm just posting things like all over the place. It just like I literally had something on my, I took it down when my cleaning lady came over, but I had a big poster void on my, on my mirror in my bathroom. And it was how to Navigate a Dictatorship. And I was like, she doesn't need to read that. But, but like I've even learned like, oh, like sometimes I am burnt out and brain dead. I won't realize it's from burnout, but life has to go on. So I finally realized one day when you're brain dead, you can at least clean. So I linked to those two things together and I had to write it on so many little stickies so that I wouldn't judge myself for being tired and I wouldn't. And also cleaning has to happen and I hate it and it's minutiae and it's boring, but I can get it done. When I, when the thought of writing a thing for my book is literally impossible. So I try to find and you know, I try to realize little hacks for myself. And then I put them on note cards and I used to like make rhymes for them. Like I literally, I used to keep things in my purse. I had a thing called a decision making guide that I had on a note card in my purse or in my wallet. And I remember one of the bullet points on there was if I say I'll just blah, blah, blah, anytime. I said, you know what, I'll just pay for it. Or you know what, I'll just do the whole thing myself. Or you know what, I'll just worry about that in a week. And then whatever. Anytime there was the word just before My decision, it was the wrong decision. So I had that on there. Yes. And I had like, slow down and I had like, meditate on it. And I had things like, you know, advice is a tricky thing because you can ask someone who's at a higher level than you, but they don't actually know you. And they're well intended, but their advice is for them, essentially, or what they think of you. So it may not. I may not be able to put much stock in that. And at the end of the day, I need to go back to my gut. So I literally had to baby my babysit myself with this little note card that always had at least four bullet points, but always had. Yeah, it was ever changing. And so when I had to make a decision, I would pull it out and, you know, it would help with any sort of self abandonment. It just happens. It was a little anchor that I could go back to when I couldn't be bothered to remember what I had already learned, basically.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Fantastic. I like the. Just. That's really key.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Oh, man.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

If I just do this, that is.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

So big for me.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

And the other piece there, and this is something I talk about a lot on this podcast, is like, if you get a therapist, talk to them, like, interview them first, because you're going to be opening up to this person. And if you are not clear about championing. So I think what we're talking about here is championing yourself. You're the one in charge of you and people can advise, but you're actually the one that's in charge. It's up to you to take care of yourself, no one else. And to learn that. That's. To me, that's what being really adult is. That's like if the most mature aspect of adulthood that's not stuffing or pretending, is taking full responsibility for your needs.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Well, I will say as far as rituals, I mean my ritual of meeting with you and actually the way that you work is very important to me, getting things done. I think the repetition, like I said, like, it's amazing the logic that you will forget as a ADHD person of what works and what doesn't. So just the constant like, oh, this is what I'm doing. I'm going through the steps this way. Or, you know, I'm. I'm remembering to calculate my wins and my things and seeing, tracking where, what has fallen by the wayside and if that was good and what I do need to get finished and also tracking your progress and being like, hey, I did actually finish that thing, you know, with You. I think I finished a book. I finished a couple songs. Like, I'm like, oh, yeah. I've actually able to cross those off my list. But it's that the kind of, the very simple repetition of a way of even looking at your schedule and goals is very helpful because it's in a complete package. When I think where our brains are, like, we're out of the box, but it puts it in a box, I guess.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Well, and this brings up a point of like, okay, so with you, what is the role of. In terms of having the wiring that we have? What is the role of support and community and friends? Like, how important is that to you? How does that affect your life and kind of having that sense of a support system around you?

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Yeah. Well, what's hilarious, and I think most people, I guess, can relate to, is like, once you find out you're adhd, you realize everyone you've kept in your life for the past 10 years is ADHD also. So I don't know. For women in particular, especially when, you know, they're diagnosed in their 30s, everyone was just like, diagnosing their friends. I can't even tell you how many people I've sent. I was like, just so you know, bestie, you're also adhd. And so are you. And so are you. And they are. And so I'm glad that I have a bunch of especially gal pals like my friend Aisling and who turned me onto your book and podcast. They're all, they all think similarly and they all work on themselves as much that tips can be shared, you know?

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

So I love that. I don't know if that's a. I don't know. In my anecdotal experience, it's a very female thing. Like, we're always like, hey, here's this. Let me share this with you. Like, read this article or whatever. And so. And I'm very much like a verbal processor, so I'm grateful to have friends and also that are artist friends because I think most people in the artistic community, like, in order to do our job well, you have to be vulnerable. So you have a certain level of trust for anyone you've acted with or. I used to say that improvising on stage with people was like, it's like sleeping with them. Like, it's so vulnerable. Like, I had to like, totally trust you in front of all these people to have my back. So artists in general have just. Usually there's a. There's a second hand when it comes to just talking about our Feelings or our problems or trying to fix things. So I don't know. My gaggle of friends, we chat often or we voice note each other and everyone's really mature. No one cares if someone doesn't get back right away. We all are respectful of everyone's time and it all eventually happens. It's so helpful. Even Ashley and I have a bunch of voice notes and it's funny going back to certain ones and being like, oh yeah, she learned that before me, and I learned this before her. And then our powers combined and now we know how to do this or little reminders and stuff. But obviously I love support from friends and chatting with them, probably to my friends chagrin. I annoy everybody, but I think that's.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

It highlights like, we need to be around people that are like us. Otherwise it's so easy to, to go down like the self judgment rabbit hole of like. Especially because I talk to people constantly. They're like, I've got no one in my life that's like this. My partner's not like, oh, wow. And it's suffering just because they do. And then they come to a group and they come to a workshop and they're like, oh my gosh, I'm around all these people that are like, like myself that and, and hopefully there's a context that feels, you know, welcoming and it doesn't feel like you're broken. You're just around people that we're just, we're from another planet. We're just a totally different species.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Yeah, I, I only realized in hindsight that everyone I had dated is most likely adhd. And then I more recently dated someone who was not. And it was so hard. It was like, I, I, the only way I could ever describe it, the only like peace that we would find in like a weird discussion was you speak French and I speak Swahili or something else. And there's nothing wrong with either of us. That's literally just what's happening right now. And therefore we. I can't communicate really. This is really tricky.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

It is when you, when you're around people that don't get you and they're like, well, why would you do that? What would you do something like that for? That's odd. Okay, so I think a good wrap up question for you because I want to respect your time here is the new media landscape. Like we're in like a whole, like since COVID everything just got totally flipped around. The media and every, every single person that I've talked to or work with is just like, this is crazy and it's still crazy and it's getting more crazy with AI now is like a whole thing which I need to think, do a whole podcast on, because I think there's going to be mental health issues. There are already mental issues erupting with AI. What are your thoughts and ideas? Because you've been, you know, we've talked about this too. When you look at the media landscape as you're with you in it and within watching how it's affecting other people, what are your survival tips to other people who may be wondering where to put their energy or just how to manage the anxiety that may be coming up for them? What are your thoughts on that?

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Oh, I don't know. And if you have anyone with the answers, send them away.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

I don't know.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

I think this is what I'm on the phone with all my friends about all the time. It's. It's so weird. I. This is not an answer, but I, I did hear a positive way of thinking about things for my business, which is that there will be so much AI nonsense, created creativity, which, by the way, it's always soulless. It's never interesting that she was saying maybe there will eventually be a premium on real stuff, which is where I, I live and breathe. So I was like, oh, that would be nice if, if, if that were the case. I don't know. It all happened. Happens so fast and my. I don't really have. I don't know if I figured out my lessons yet. I, I know for my, Myself personally, when I was starting, I got like a little bit of success on YouTube and it was actually really great. And then, but then in my business it was like, hey, if you're on YouTube, then you can't be on HBO. So then I wasn't sharing myself on YouTube, but. And then I got on HBO, but then it's like, oh, well, yeah, but now I don't have like this YouTube business that I could have had during this apocalypse that's happening, you know? So I think that there's. The answer is like there's no rules and there should be no, no judgment for anything that we're trying. But it's so weird because everything flip flopped so much. You know, people became vine stars and then there was no more vine, and then there was so much television and then we had a strike and then everyone realized streaming's not sustainable. So I don't know. I. With that, the only way that I anchor myself is being like, just keep making the things that are important to you, but trying to find a way that you don't have to ask for permission for it. Because unfortunately, in my business, like, studios have to say yes to the thing that you wrote. So maybe I should do more outside of that system.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Okay. I want to end on a lighter note, which is tell people about the squirrels. And I want to point people to your Instagram too, because your Instagram is the coolest thing ever.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Oh, thanks. I have. Well, yeah, so I have a squirrel house. My problem, I haven't updated the gram, but the problem with my squirrel house is it's. It's tipped a little so that the rain comes in. And my most recent squirrel resident was trying to put more leaves to blockade the rain, but it's tipped against its favor. So I need to get up there and tilt it the other way so that the rain drains. I'm very sad I lost my most recent squirrel resident.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

But.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

But they're still eating from their little feeder every morning. And I wish that I was, like, really a Disney character and they were eating out of my hands, but I tried it. I try to let them chill. And at least my dogs have both learned the command no squirrels. Because they literally do not chase after squirrels. It's a miracle. That's a good thing.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Yeah, that's a very good thing. Yeah. I'm sure the squirrels. The squirrel population is happy to hear that. They are.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

They are.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

I gotta say, they're a little greedy. I've got a squirrel here that I was so happy that came to our feeder, and I was like, oh, cool. But then it chased off all the birds and ate everything. I put the food out and it would just mow the whole thing. That. And I put another. And he just kind of eat. I was like, okay, we gotta have some kind of boundary. We have to have a talk about boundaries here.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Yeah, Mine eat everything too, to the point where I checked the bag the other day. I was like, is this even a complete diet for squirrels? Because they are just living off completely what I'm giving them. They're not going anywhere else. They're just like, thanks, girl.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Ginger, thank you so much for joining. This was amazing. And especially coming off of, like, starting this feeling, feeling really off. And just having this conversation just lifted me up. And I hope it lifted everyone else up who listened to this episode and just want to point everyone. Go check out Ginger's Instagram and all of her back catalog of amazing creative stuff. She's done so many different things.

[Ginger Gonzaga]

Thank you so much. So good to talk to you.

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

Okay. I hope you enjoyed that interview with Ginger. You can find her on Instagram and other platforms as well. Ginger the Jester and her new award winning short film Mermaid comes out on streaming this week and I'll leave links in the description of this episode. And as a reminder, our next online weekly support group starts on November 18th. If you're wanting to wrap up the year heading in a positive direction, get some support around the overwhelm of the holidays and get help integrating the tips and practices we discuss on the podcast. We love to have you join us. You can find out [e-mail] group and that's it. So until next time, be well.

[Podcast Outro Narrator]

Thanks for joining us. If you'd like to learn more about the book the Drummer and the Great Mountain, visit Drummer and the Great Mountain.com to join us on social media, click the links at the top of the homepage. Help us spread the word. We're a small press and reviews really help. If you've been enjoying the podcast or the book, consider writing a review on itunes, Amazon, Goodreads, or your podcast app. If you're new to the podcast and want to quickly get up to speed on the concepts we discuss, check out our free 5 day mini course. Visit drummandthegreatmountain.com minicourse if there's a topic you'd like us to cover on future episodes, we'd love to hear from you. Please send us an [e-mail].

[Michael Joseph Ferguson]

SA SAM.