Advisory Opinions – "Abraham Lincoln, Originalist" | Interview with Akhil Amar

Podcast by The Dispatch | Released: August 12, 2025

Episode Overview

In this intellectually rich episode of Advisory Opinions, hosts Sarah Isger and David French welcome back renowned constitutional scholar Professor Akhil Reed Amar to discuss his much-anticipated new book, Born Equal: The Lincolnian Amendments, the second volume in his three-part narrative on American constitutional history. The conversation examines Abraham Lincoln's originalist vision, the critical role of the Declaration of Independence in constitutional interpretation, the evolution of equality in America, and the enduring struggle between founding principles and historical realities.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Trilogy & National Narrative

• Amar explains that his three-volume series seeks to tell "the story of us," providing America with a coherent national narrative rooted in its founding texts and evolutionary amendments.
• Born Equal (Volume II) covers 1840–1920, tracing the path from entrenched slavery toward constitutional equality, culminating in the "Lincolnian Amendments" (13th, 14th, 15th, and 19th).
• Amar stresses America's lack of unifying characteristics (e.g., ethnicity, language, religion), highlighting that national identity is bound by shared history and central texts.

"The only thing that we have in common really are these central texts and the story, the history that unites them."
— Akhil Amar (07:22)

2. Originalism and the Founding Documents

• Sarah asks how originalists should think about the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the post–Civil War amendments.
• Amar asserts that to be an originalist is to care about origins, and America's juridical birth is July 1776 (the Declaration), not 1787 (the Constitution). He sees Lincoln as a profound originalist, always looking back to foundational documents for meaning and legitimacy.

"Originalists are about our origins...our origins are in July 1776. That's where we begin. We Americans. That's where we are born."
— Akhil Amar (04:18)

• Lincoln’s reinterpretation of the Declaration, emphasizing “all men are created equal,” sets the foundation for the amendments and the ongoing quest for civil equality.

3. Competing Interpretations: North vs. South

• Amar highlights the different readings of the Declaration: the North’s focus on equality and abolition, the South’s on state sovereignty.
• Lincoln “wins” the interpretative battle, resulting in the adoption of the Reconstruction Amendments, which Amar dubs "the Lincolnian amendments."

“There’s a northern interpretation of the Declaration and a southern interpretation. And Lincoln’s wins.”
— Akhil Amar (13:38)

4. The Declaration’s Role in Legal Interpretation

• David asks about the persistent contradiction between the Declaration’s ideals and the reality of slavery, and its effect on America’s development.
• Amar lays out ten different readings of “all men are created equal,” noting how Lincoln’s own understanding evolved.
• He describes how free states, immediately after independence, began abolishing slavery, and the Declaration’s rhetoric animated both legal and political activism in the North.
• Amar details how the Declaration’s aspirational language was encoded into state constitutions and postwar amendments.

“Originalists can be liberals as well as conservatives, which is my view…Americans are originalist. They disagree about what the Constitution means, but they think it actually matters, and they think the Declaration matters.”
— Akhil Amar (23:34)

5. Modern Constitutional Debates & The Declaration

• Sarah draws a modern analogy by referencing Justice Scalia’s handling of prefatory clauses in Heller (Second Amendment), asking if the Declaration is just “the why,” not the legally operative “what.”
• Amar critiques Scalia for a shallow historical approach and insists that the Lincolnian amendments (especially the 14th) embed the Declaration’s ideals into the Constitution itself.
• He argues that originalism demands attention to historical contexts, especially regarding equality and rights derived from the 14th Amendment.

"Even if you thought [the Declaration]'s not part of the Constitution technically at the founding, it becomes embedded in the Constitution thanks to the 13th, 14th, 15th, and 19th amendments."
— Akhil Amar (29:14)

6. The Limits and Triumphs of Equality

• David probes the enduring failure of “birth equality,” given Jim Crow and segregation, despite the amendments.
• Amar concedes the “triumphalist tone” is complicated by failures but emphasizes that the enduring constitutional text (“equal protection”) became enforceable due to later originalists and social movements.

“Once it’s in the Constitution, it’s there, and we’re going to take it seriously...Originalism is a game that can be played by both.”
— Akhil Amar (39:15)

7. Revelations in Research – People & Principles

• Prompted by Sarah, Amar describes surprises in his research:
  • The outsized influence of Harriet Beecher Stowe and Uncle Tom’s Cabin in shaping public opinion and catalyzing abolition.
    • “[Stowe] is the first—she’s America’s first female superstar…she helps end slavery.” (42:45)
  • The profound originalism and influence of Lincoln, especially his Cooper’s Union speech.
  • The importance of “second founders”—notably Frederick Douglass, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and how individuals of humble origin embodied American ideals.

8. Virtue, Principles, and Character in History

• David poses whether good principles or virtuous people are more essential for progress.
• Amar draws parallels to religious reform and emphasizes the need for both principles and people, plus institutions that can foster the right leaders at the right times.

“You need the principles and you need the people...and what’s amazing is...you need a system that creates them and that picks them.”
— Akhil Amar (51:14)

9. The Ongoing Project

• The episode closes with Sarah praising Amar’s body of work, and Amar confirming Volume III (Earth’s Best Hope) is planned for release in a few years, to complete the national story up to the present.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|-----------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:18 | Akhil Amar | "Our origins are in July 1776. That's where we begin. We Americans. That's where we are born." | | 12:50 | Sarah Isger | “In Texas, Sarah, born and raised, and I have the Texas Declaration of Independence hanging in my basement…”| | 13:38 | Akhil Amar | "There’s a northern interpretation of the Declaration and a southern interpretation. And Lincoln’s wins." | | 15:14 | Akhil Amar | "There are ten different ways at least of understanding 'all men are created equal.' Lincoln...evolves..." | | 23:34 | Akhil Amar | "Originalists can be liberals as well as conservatives, which is my view." | | 29:14 | Akhil Amar | "It becomes embedded in the Constitution thanks to the 13th, 14th, 15th, and 19th amendments..." | | 42:45 | Akhil Amar | "She [Harriet Beecher Stowe] helps end slavery...she's huge." | | 51:14 | Akhil Amar | "You need the principles and you need the people...and what’s amazing is...you need a system that creates them and that picks them." | | 57:19 | Sarah Isger | "I'm constantly referencing [‘The Words That Made Us’]—it's a book you can chew on forever..." |

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:20 – Amar introduces the national narrative and his trilogy concept
• 04:10 – Originalism and the relationship between the Declaration and the Constitution
• 13:00 – Northern vs. Southern interpretations of the Declaration
• 15:14 – Lincoln-Douglas debates and evolving meaning of “equality”
• 24:06 – Modern implications: Declaration's legal relevance and originalism today
• 35:58 – Jim Crow era and the unfinished project of constitutional equality
• 41:04 – Amar’s research surprises: Stowe, Douglass, Stanton, and the role of character
• 49:50 – The enduring interplay of principle, virtue, and the American experiment
• 56:44 – What’s next: Volume III on the 20th century and beyond

Structure and Tone

The episode is engaging, deeply historical, and philosophical, blending narrative and legal analysis in Amar’s signature style—erudite but accessible, passionate, and reflective. Both hosts foster organic, curiosity-driven discussion, with humor and warmth.

Final Takeaway

Born Equal sets out to restore a sense of national unity through a shared constitutional story, insisting that the ideals of the Declaration, as realized and re-embedded in the Constitution by Lincoln and others, remain not just America's foundation but its perpetual challenge. Amar's scholarship and approach offer an originalist vision expansive enough for all Americans, regardless of their political persuasion.