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A
Ready?
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B
I was born ready.
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A
Welcome to Advisory Opinions. I'm Sara Isger. That's David French. And today we are doing life advice and professional advice for lawyers with with a special guest and I'm not going to tell you who it is. I'll just, I'll give you two hints. One, I hated him in 2016. Two, he's the person I most look forward to seeing on Sundays. I want to talk to my fellow attorneys for a moment. Do you really want to spend time on the technical side of briefing blue booking tables, appendix assembly, bait stamping, or would you rather focus on your argument type Law can take your draft and exhibits and transform them into a court ready, rule compliant E brief and appendix overnight. They've helped prepare over 10,000 filings in courts across the country, even SCOTUS. Learn more@typelaw.com and use referral code advisory to save 10% on your first order. That's TypeLaw.com this episode is brought to.
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C
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A
And we are here for a very special advisory opinions and advice with former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie.
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B
I didn't hate you in 2016.
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A
You didn't know who I was in 2016.
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B
Well, that's exactly right. So I didn't hate you. I hated your candidate. I didn't hate you though. She was, by the way, she was, by the way, the rudest candidate to deal with on that entire stage after her first debate, my second at the Reagan Library. We were the two considered to have done the best in that debate. So as you remember, we were very much in demand the next morning for the morning shows. And when you do that at the Reagan Library, that means you're out there at 3:30am Getting ready to do it. So we were in makeup chairs next to each other and I turned to her and I said, hey Carly, good morning. I said and good job last night. And she turned and looked at me and she said, yeah. And that was it.
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A
I want to be clear. First of all, nobody is more competitive than Carly Fiorina. Second of all, this would explain so much because if you remember, we were not in the first debate and I am quite proud of what happened next, which is I basically had this whole like mini campaign to get us in that second big kids debate. Using math. Like all of my skills finally came together. My beginnings as a math major in college, transitioning into poli sci and history. Like all. Everything about Sarah made for magic in that July as I sent out memos about, you know, various statistical probabilities and shamed everyone into including her in the second debate. Donald Trump did us some help there, also with the hey, look at that face comment. Fast forward to New Hampshire and post this whole little incident that you mentioned. It was at 3 in the morning, by the way. Like, none of us are at our chipper est best. And you, sir, I am told we've never talked about this. I. I am told that you kept us off that New Hampshire debate so that what Marco could talk about his hand size.
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D
That was later. The hand size was later.
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A
No, no.
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B
Yeah.
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D
Oh, yeah. New Hampshire was the demolition of Marco Rubio by our guest Governor Chris Christie.
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B
That.
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D
That was New Hampshire. I remember that very well because I thought Rubio was having a mental health event. He was repeating himself.
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A
So it was an all. It was the first all male debate. It was two days before the New Hampshire primary. And absolutely, in the all male debate, that is when discussions were had that perhaps a female candidate might have been helpful.
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B
Well, it might have been helpful for Carly. It certainly wasn't gonna be helpful for me. And so, yes, I did the very best I could to debunk your ridiculous memos from July and keep her off the stage in February. Yes, I plead guilty to that. And part of that had to do with her extraordinary collegiality. When we met with each other in July, I said to my team afterwards, let me tell you something, I don't know when I'm gonna get back at her, but it's coming. And it took a few months, but we took care of business, as Jersey people normally tend to do.
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A
Okay, let's back up. Let's do the Chris Christie origin story. You're the 55th governor of New Jersey. But frankly, that that's not what we want to spend most of this podcast about. We want to talk about law days, your real, like, in the trenches war stories. You're the U.S. attorney in New Jersey. And first of all, everyone says the best job that they've ever had is as an AUSA. Now, you technically weren't an AUSA, but you were the U.S. attorney. You've had a lot of jobs before and after. Was U.S. attorney the best job?
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B
Absolutely. It's not even close. I mean, I loved being governor and it was an amazing opportunity. But if you told me That I could look back on my life and pick just one job I get to do. It would have been U.S. attorney. It was the best seven years of my professional life, no doubt about it.
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A
And you had a lot of prosecutors in that office doing fun stuff. Any standout cases? And can you please tell the story of your two prosecutors who maybe were not best friends?
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B
Sure. Standout cases. We did the first terrorism case post 9 11. It was against a British, an Indian born British national named Hamet Lakhani who was attempting to sell shoulder fired missiles to a Yemeni terrorist group in New Jersey who wanted to shoot commercial airliners out of the sky at Newark Airport. And he was attempting to buy these shoulder fired missiles from Russia. And in days long gone, we partnered with the Russian FSB to create a sting on this guy. Ultimately, Russia delivered dummy shoulder fired missiles through the port in Baltimore where we were waiting with the FBI. And Mr. Lakhani, he took, he paid, he took delivery of the missiles, he walked out with these crates of missiles to the waiting arms of the FBI and he wound up doing the rest of his life in federal prison and died in federal prison. That was clearly a noteworthy case. We probably cannot go through my U.S. attorney career without mentioning the name Kushner.
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D
Yep. Gonna ask about that. Gonna ask about that.
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B
Jared Kushner's father, the current ambassador to France in what this world has now become, was pled guilty to 19 count criminal complaint, never got to the indictment stage for tax fraud, FEC fraud, and in a, in a statute that I'm sure Sarah and David are both enormously familiar with, violations of the man act, which is causing prostitutes to cross state lines to commit acts of prostitution.
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A
Can we just take a little footnote here that in law school when you learn about the man act, it is like this giggle worthy thing that the law about prostitution is called the Man Act. So I mean, I went to law school at, I guess the denouement of the man show with Jimmy Kimmel and stuff. So it all kind of fit into that vibe so you don't forget it. Everyone remembers the Man Act.
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B
The story of that case is pretty simple. It arose out of a family dispute between Charles Kushner, his brother and his sister over the family business.
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A
This gets really weird, by the way. Just buckle in.
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B
Yeah. And what happened was we were in the midst of investigating Charles Kushner for basically garden variety tax fraud, and we received a call from a lawyer in New Jersey, a well respected lawyer in New Jersey, who said to me, you need to meet with Charles Kushner's sister. And I said, look, I don't meet with, you know, witnesses. I said, go see the AUSAs and meet with them. No, no, no, Chris, you have to take this meeting, believe me. All right. So in comes Charles Kushner's sister, Esther, Esther Shoulder and her husband, Billy Shoulder and their lawyer. And they tell me a story where Billy wound up having a. A one time affair with a young woman he met in a diner in New Jersey in Somerville, New Jersey, called, believe it or not, the Time to Eat Diner. And as it turns out, that assignation was videotaped and unbeknownst to Mr. Shoulder. And the videotape was sent to Esther Shoulder on the day of her son's engagement party with stills, digital stills, in the envelope as well. If she didn't put, for young people who won't understand this, it was something called a VHS tape into the vcr. Another thing they would not understand, which is the way you played videotapes back then. So I said, I'm listening to this saying, like, so what do I have to do with this? And she said to me, I know my brother did this. And, and I said, how do you know your brother did this? And she then turned to her husband to tell the story that essentially he used to go to this time to eat diner every morning for breakfast. This very attractive young woman came up to him one day at the diner and said that she had had car problems. She's from New York. Her car got towed. Could he please bring her back to the motel she was staying in? He agreed to brought her back to her motel on Route 22 in Somerville, which, no joke, was called the Red Bull Inn. She tried to get him to come up to her room, and he refused. And she said, well, look, I don't know anybody around here. My car's gonna be ready tomorrow. If you're gonna be at the same place for breakfast, is there any way you could come back and pick me up and bring me to the BMW dealer, which was about 3/4 of a mile away from the Red Bull Inner. So they decide to exchange cell phone numbers, which is a key part of this story. So they do. The next morning, of course she calls him, of course he goes to the, to the motel. But this time she says she's not quite ready yet. Could he come upstairs? He goes upstairs, she begins to seduce him. And he says on the videotape, I don't. I don't know you. I mean, you could be an ax murderer. And she looks at him, says, Do I look like an axe murderer? And he says, no. No, you don't. And then he said, you could be someone trying to blackmail me. And she goes, do I look. Do I look like someone who would try to blackmail you? And he says. And he says, no, unfortunately. And after that, the clothes are taken off and nature takes its course.
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D
Oh, so all you have to do to execute a blackmail is deny your blackmailing.
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B
Exactly right. And so as I'm listening to the story, there was one thing, as a trained prosecutor that stuck out to me. I turned to him, I said, do you still have her cell phone number? Now, this was 18 months later, in front of his wife. And he stared down at the conference table and said, I do. And I said, well, you'll need to give me that. And so he hands it over to me and his wife. Then I said, so you think Charles set this whole thing up? And she goes, of course he did. Charlie plays on people's weaknesses. She puts her hand on her husband's shoulder and points to the videotape, which she also brought to give us and said, billy has a weakness. Charlie played on it. So we went and then subpoenaed her cell phone records for that day. When they came back five minutes after the videotape ended, she made a phone call to a Schenectady cell phone. We then subpoenaed those records. They were for a private investigator in Schenectady, New York. We then subpoenaed his cell phone records, and he made a call two minutes after her call to a phone that was registered to the East Orange, New Jersey, Police Department. So we call the East Orange PD to find out whose cell phone this is. It is the brother of the private investigator. We then have the records for the East Orange pd, and one minute after he gets the call from his brother, he calls the cell phone of Charlie Kushner.
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A
So, first of all, let's give a hat tip for the good use of cutouts. That was some good cutout work. I'm impressed. But you know what? This is why federal prosecutors have the conviction rates that they do. Once you're in their sights, they're like those little, you know, yappy dogs. Like, once they clamp on, they're never letting go.
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B
Well, you know, as I say to them, once you let them in the house, they're not just going to look for what they're looking for. They're going to look at everything. And, you know, so here we go. We now have this. We then execute search warrants at the same Time on the prostitute's apartment in the Upper east side of Manhattan. The private investigator and the police officer.
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A
Which none of this even works without the sister not just cooperating. Coming to you.
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B
Yeah. And she had cooperated earlier in the tax fraud and FEC fraud case because the way seriously became. What caused the family dispute was she tried to make a donation to a Republican Senate candidate, and it was returned to her saying she had already reached her federal limit. And she said, well, I haven't made any contributions at all this cycle.
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A
Straw donations.
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B
Yes. So Charlie was making straw donations from the partnership and forging his sister's signature.
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A
On the records and committing a federal crime and doing that as well. But, you know.
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B
Correct. And so that was when she got caught. Called into the grand jury for that. When he found out that she had gone into the grand jury, that's when he came up with this scheme in order to intimidate her from any further cooperation. And the way it turned out, you know, we searched the. We go and execute the search warrant on the cop. He immediately flips and says it was Charlie Kushner. He gave me $25,000 to go and get this hooker and to do this scheme. The private investigator refused to talk, lawyered up immediately, and the prostitute would not let the FBI into her apartment. And they called us and said, she won't let us in. And I said, you have a search warrant. Knock the door down. And they go, oh, it's a really nice apartment. We don't want to do that. And I said, well, then slip a couple of hundreds under the door. I don't care what you have to do, but get into the apartment. And when I eventually got into the apartment and questioned her, she identified Charlie Kushner as the guy who hired her from a photograph. And Kushner, what he did was he had the private investigator wait and hold that tape for a few months, and he intentionally had it delivered on the day of his nephew's engagement party, a party he was going to attend himself.
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D
Ladies and gentlemen, your U.S. ambassador to the great nation of France.
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B
That's correct. And so, you know. And one of the great, you know, Donald Trump, to bring him into this. When I brought that case, as he was known to do at that time, he tore the front page off of the New York Post, which Charles Kuster was on as he was making his initial appearance, and I still have it, he wrote in black Sharpie, Way to put the bad guys away, Chris. And signed to Donald Trump. Wow. Wow. Maybe that'll be in my Next book. I'm not sure you talked about the.
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D
US Attorney as your favorite job. And US Attorneys are more in the news now than maybe any time since the, you know, the controversy surrounding the Bush administration firing use attorneys during his two terms.
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A
How quaint was that, by the way? It was a huge. One of the biggest scandals of the entire Bush administration was that he was firing US Attorneys to replace them with political appointees, which they always are political appointees for partisan reasons. Heavens to Betsy. Where's my fainting couch? People, people's careers were destroyed over that, their reputations destroyed. It had incredibly serious consequences for other people. We lost, obviously, a attorney general over it, but some of the lower level staff who don't, you know, they didn't get their reputations back now that we don't think that's a real scandal. But like, yeah, just, just so we all jog our memories over that.
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B
And by the way, I was, I was on the list of U.S. attorneys to be fired, which I didn't discover until well into the scandal, as Sarah just put it. When they were going to respond to the congressional subpoenas, I got a call from the Deputy Attorney General's office saying, by the way, one of the things you'll see is, is that you were on the list of U.S. attorneys to be fired that was sent from the Justice Department over to the White House as suggestions of who to get fired, and the White House took you off the list. And so I said, well, I'd like to talk to the DAG about why I was on the list. And he go, well, the DAG doesn't want to talk about that. And I'm like, well, this is gonna get public today, I assume. And he said, yes, this was his chief of staff. And I said, well, you tell the DAG that if I don't hear from him and can't talk to him about the reasons for why, when I'm asked at my next press conference, I'm gonna say it was a personal vendetta by the dag, and I'm gonna offer my resignation. And he goes, let me get back to you. And the DAG got back to me later that day and told me it was because the dag's office thought I had been too aggressive on a corporate fraud prosecution that I brought against Bristol Myers Squibb. And that's why ultimately I was put on the list. But I was apparently removed by both counsel's office. And ultimately I learned in a deposition that happened surrounding all this later on by Karl Rove off of the list.
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D
So that's a perfect segue into the question that I have as a U.S. attorney. You're coming into an office that has hundreds if not thousands of pre existing cases, that's working investigations, cases, appeals, all of this. But you're also a political appointee who's coming in with a new administration who's going to have different priorities than the outgoing administration. How does a U.S. attorney in a functioning when things are going the way they're supposed to and you can tell us if that's how it was for you, if you felt that it was the process happened the way it should have happened, if it's happening the way it's supposed to happen. How is a U.S. attorney balancing the new priorities of the new administration with all of the pre existing continuity that exists in an office that's enforcing, that's helping enforce in federal law, sometimes in years long cases with lots of legacy momentum and inertia. So how do you balance that?
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A
Want to know what the governor has to say about that? Oh, hold on a sec.
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E
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B
In the new Bush administration, I did not get sworn into office until January of 02. It took about a year for that process to work through in a blue state like New Jersey. Our two senators were Bob Torricelli at the time and John Corzine. And they held me up for quite a period of time before ultimately they signed the blue slips and I was able to be confirmed in December. So the Bush administration had a first set of priorities when they first came into office about the US Attorneys, which essentially surrounded something the President called Project Safe Neighborhoods, which was a program for us to do more gun cases, taking more illegal guns off the streets. And that remained a priority. Then in the before I arrived on the job, you had the corporate fraud scandals of Enron and Arthur Anderson, which then had the President order there to be set up a corporate fraud task force. And given how many corporations were headquartered in New Jersey at the time, we were part of the corporate fraud task force. And then of course, 9, 11 happened. And so then terrorism became priority number one. So those were the three main priorities, David, that were new to them. And what the Bush administration did was they gave us new AUSA slots for each one of those priorities. And so to do that, then you had these folks who you newly hired or transferred into those slots and hired people to backfill someplace else. So you could do everything at one time. You could do these new priorities that the administration had set, guns, corporate fraud, and obviously terrorism without really impeding, at least in New Jersey, without impeding the ongoing cases that were going on and kind of the traditional things that the office had done over the course of its recent history. So I never found it to be a problem. The other piece was, I guess, because we were doing these things, I never got a call from DOJ saying, do this or don't do that. It never happened in seven years. And when I formally got the job, the week before I was going to be sworn in, I went down to meet with Attorney General Ashcroft. And one of the things he told me in that meeting was, you will never hear from me about a case that you should not do. As long as you can tell me that what you're doing complies with the law and is done. With the pursuit of justice in mind, I'm going to give you the discretion to do what you want to do. And he held to it. He held to it in his four years for sure. I never got a call from John Ashcroft saying, you know, what the hell's going on down there? Or hey, why aren't you prosecuting this person or even this type of crime? And so that was the way you were able to do it. They gave you additional resources to address the priorities that the President had set. And Sarah said this when we were on ABC this week. It's absolutely appropriate for an administration to set priorities for the Justice Department and say, these are the things in the law enforcement area we want you to prioritize. What I don't believe is appropriate is for them to say, hey, go prosecute Sarah Isker or go prosecute David French. That's completely inappropriate for a White House to do. And that's what this White House in my view, is engaged in, in addition to being engaged in firing people for having done what was lawful for them to do in their law enforcement role. Whether they were AUSAs assigned January 6 cases or FBI agents assigned the investigation of January 6 and other matters as well.
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D
And these were not investigations that were lawless, these were lawful investigations. And they were, I'm presuming, in many cases directed to be a part of the. This was not a volunteer basis. They're being asked to, they're brought into it as part of their normal job and then losing their job because of it.
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B
Well, that's the way it works, normally is, you know, supervisors at the FBI assign agents to certain matters. The agents don't get to pick and choose. And US attorneys assign AUSAs to certain matters when they come in based upon their experience, their, you know, skills and abilities. And you know, you don't get a choice. Not like an AUSA can come to me and unless they were coming to me with an ethical conflict, you know, oh, I can't investigate this company cuz my brother works there. Okay, that's fair. I don't want to put somebody into a situation where they're ethically compromised. But other than that, they don't get to say no to you. It's not the way it works. Being U.S. attorney is a benign dictatorship in that regard. And so, you know, that's the way it normally works. And you don't get penalized for having followed the lawful direction of your Senate. Confirmed boss.
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A
Best advice you ever got as a baby attorney. Best advice you've ever given as a super old guy now.
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B
Thank you, Sarah. Super old guy boy. Well, thanks for having me. It's Good to see you.
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D
And Governor, this is typical rhetoric from Sarah Isger. I have been called every manner of decrepit, ancient, you name it. So you're in good company.
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B
Look, I just hope to live long enough to say the same thing to her. Best advice I got as a baby attorney was be prepared. That there was no. I did trial work as a young attorney. I defended doctors in medical malpractice cases. And those were complicated trials, complex fact sets. And the partners who I worked for told me that for, you know, every hour you were going to spend in the courtroom, you needed to spend two and a half to three hours outside the courtroom getting ready. And so, you know, being completely versed in the facts of your case and having the time to think about how to use those facts strategically to represent your client. It's just, to me, for a young lawyer, there's no advice that could be better than that. Because if you are well prepared, you have a very good chance of doing well and representing your client in a way that they deserve. Best advice I've given as a. What was it again, Kara? Really older?
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A
Incredibly. Seriously, Crypt Keeper levels of old.
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B
What I've said to those as it, as a, as a, as a very old attorney is do something you like as a lawyer. Being a lawyer is a tough job, and it's a time consuming job. And it's a job that, if you do it the right way, takes a lot away from your family life and other personal life. For God's sake, don't hate what you do. You know, when you first become a lawyer, you're probably not sure what you want to do, so you're going to have to try some things. But when you find what you like, grab onto it and don't let go. And if you're doing something you hate, for God's sake, get out and go on to something else. Because it's too much hard work to also hate it on top of it. And I found when I was doing private practice and I was doing trial work, I loved it. So prepping was arduous, but not torturous. And I think if I had hated the work, it would have been torturous. And so what I tell young attorneys all the time is, find what you like and you'll figure out a way to make money at it.
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D
So when you were on the way up, did you have your eyes set on the U.S. attorney's office, or was this more of a target of opportunity? This is something where you're doing well in your career. You're progressing in your career, and this just opened up kind of manna from heaven, so to speak, or you oriented your career. I want to be a political appointee. This is what I want to do. And if so, how did you orient yourself in that way?
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A
And to be clear, just to make this a ruder question, when we go back to your high school yearbook, you know, does people have the, like, quotes underneath? Like, in Sam Alito's yearbook? Who I know you, fellow Jerseyan. It says, like, one day we'll sit on the Supreme Court. Like, if I go find your yearbook, is it gonna say, chris Christie is running for president in 30 years?
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B
No, it will say that I was class president for all four years. So there is a little foreshadowing there. But. But no, it won't say that underneath my picture. It'll talk more about my high school girlfriend and the fact that I was the catcher on the varsity baseball team and captain of the baseball team, but it won't talk about being U.S. attorney. And no, David, it was not something that I aspired to. I really didn't think about it until I was in the midst of being New Jersey counsel to the George W. Bush for President campaign, which came about because my partner, one of my law partners, Bill Palaticucci, had been the executive director of the Bush Quayle 92 campaign in New Jersey, and in that capacity, had gotten to know George W. Bush. And when George W. Was thinking about running for president, Christy Whitman was the governor of New Jersey, and she was kind of playing footsie politically with Elizabeth Dole and was not committing to George W. So he came to us and said, hey, are you willing to put together a group of prominent New Jersey Republicans to come see me at the Governor's mansion in Texas? And, you know, that was a dangerous assignment because you were going against your governor, who did not want people to be endorsing George W. Bush at that time. But we did it, and we put together a great group of people. It led to, like, five or six meetings at the governor's mansion. And at the end of it, Governor Bush asked me if I would be counsel for the New Jersey campaign. Now, fortunately, you know, we didn't have a close election in New Jersey in 2000, so it wasn't like I was counsel in Florida. But once that happened and President Bush won, Karl Rove actually called to me and said, like, would you like to come to D.C. is there something you'd like to do? And I said, really, what I'd love to do is be U.S. attorney. And he said, well, he said, we have some input on that. Obviously, he said, but you gotta go through a process at the Justice Department first. So let me send your stuff to doj, and if you make it through the DOJ portion of the process and it gets to the White House, you know, we'll certainly take a hard look at you. And that process then went on for the better part of nine months. And I was actually nominated by the President on September 10, 2001. And so it was not something that I aspired to my whole career. You wouldn't have found it under my yearbook picture, but I had seen some great US Attorneys in New Jersey in my time, guys like Judge Fred Lacey, Judge Herb Stern in my younger part of my career, and then Mike Chertoff and Sam Alito. So there had been some really outstanding people who had had that job. And so, you know, it was very attractive to me in that way as a real challenge. And that's why I asked for the nomination and went through. And actually, as it turned out, the last two people being considered for the job by President Bush were me and Rosemary Alito, Sam's younger sister. And I wound up getting the nod over Sam Alito's younger sister.
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A
By the way, speaking of high school, if anyone wants to Google this story, it's from 2015 in the wall Street Journal. The headline is, the class of 1980 waits to see if Chris Christie will Attend Reunion. And the photo is the most 1980 New Jersey. I mean, it is perfection for the vibe, if you will, and I will read this. So people weren't sure if you were going to attend your 35th high school reunion. Fair enough. Even after he took office, Mr. Christie attended his 30th reunion in 2010 and was so happy to hang out at the after party that he and his wife, Mary Pat, stayed there until 2:30am Quote, I kept the troopers out late that night, Mr. Christie said Wednesday. I really love these people.
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B
There you go.
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A
Did you go to your 35th reunion? That's the question.
- [35:49]
B
I did. I did. It was during the presidential campaign, and I could say that some of the campaign staff were not thrilled at the idea that I was taking time away from Iowa or New Hampshire to go to my 35th reunion. But I did, in fact, go. And all of them that night wanted a commitment that if I won, that the 40th reunion would be at the White House. So giving away snow in winter, I said, yes, no problem. Figured I'd figure it out if it ever happened.
- [36:21]
A
Were you an Excellent student. And I asked that because I think often this is the joke that George W. Bush made at his commencement address. The A students go on to be judges and professors and stuff, and the C students go on to be president. I'm curious where you fall in the excellent student. Were you a grinder? Were you a voracious reader? What was. I mean, I know you're playing baseball and chasing girls. Let's put that aside.
- [36:47]
B
I just chased one girl in high school, and A caught her. But, no, look, I was in between. But I wasn't an outstanding student. I was a grinder. I had to work really hard to do the things that I got done. And I also was very focused on having another life outside of the classroom. So, president of the class in high school, captain of the baseball team, president, student body at the University of Delaware. But I went to Delaware because my family really didn't have any money. I got admitted to Boston College, which is where I really wanted to go, and we just couldn't afford it. And so the University of Delaware offered me some serious scholarship money, like two thirds of the cost of school. And my father, the cpa, said to me, like, we may want to go back and look at Delaware again, you know, So I went there. I did well at Delaware. I wanted to go. I was not going to get into a top 15 law school. And so I decided I wanted to. I was going to practice in New Jersey, so I'd go to a New Jersey law school. So I, you know, I went to Seton hall, and I did horribly my first semester at Seton hall, horribly. And I even thought about dropping out. And I. And I remember at that point coming home to my parents and saying, like, maybe this isn't for me. And I went to a professor who I wound up later being involved with politically. He's a Democrat. He was my contracts professor and great guy named Wilfredo Caraballo. And I said to him, you know, I don't know if I'm cut out for this. And. And he asked me about what my study process was and all the rest, and I'd gone through it with him. And he said, well, you're just studying like a college student, not like a law student, and you got to learn to study like a law student. And he offered to mentor me in the second semester, and I had him second semester for the second half of contracts. And he really changed my trajectory of my. Of my law school career. He taught me how to study. And he. So he's a very important guy to me, you know, all through my law school career. Ultimately he served in the legislature and left the legislature, unfortunately, right before I became governor. But, you know, so that's the kind of student I was, Sarah. They're not going to be writing any books about me as a great student, but I was good enough. And I think that combined with my personal relationships, allowed me to have the career I've had.
- [39:18]
A
When we get back, we're going to learn the difference between a podium and a lectern and why it's important.
- [39:29]
B
One of the things that you have to do as US Attorney is manage some very big egos. AUSA is, God love them, are public servants, but they're public servants with pretty big egos. In my experience. They live in this kind of ivory tower world. They're cloistered from the real world for good reason in some respects, you know. And the U.S. attorney, though, didn't usually get into setting up trial teams. I usually allowed the lower level supervisors to decide who would try what cases. Only the most high visible cases did I ever get myself involved in it. There was a white collar fraud case, a bank fraud case that was being tried and it was being tried by a, a senior lawyer in the office. And for whatever reason, the supervisor of that, of that group decided to pair him with a young lawyer who I had hired actually out of Main justice at the recommendation of Mike Chertoff. And a very bright young guy, but not wildly experienced as a trial lawyer, but he wanted to become one. And they thought, well, good, you could second seat this trial and really learn from this. That was not necessarily this guy's personality as like to be a, to be a supplicant, so to speak. And the senior lawyer was the kind of guy who wanted his second seat to be a supplicant. So this set up a real personality conflict between the two of them. And I heard that there was some conflict going on in the midst of the trial prep. And I asked the supervisor, are you sure this is going to be fine? He goes, it's going to be fine. It'll be great. So during the midst of the trial, I get a call from the judge who's trying the case, saying to me, hey, can you come over here? I need to talk to you. So of course. And I go over to see the judge and he says, there's a problem with this trial. I don't know if you heard what happened today. No, I hadn't heard anything yet. He said, well, he goes, there's obviously some tension between the trial partners for the government. And he said, at one point, I made a ruling that the lead lawyer did not agree with. And he asked if he could approach the podium to argue. And his second seat said under his breath, but loud enough that. Enough. Most people heard it. It's not a podium. It's a lectern. And the lead lawyer turned to him and said, go fuck yourself. And in front of the jury, to his own side, to his own trial partner.
- [42:20]
D
That is spectacular.
- [42:24]
B
At that point, the judge decided to ask for a brief adjournment to order a brief adjournment, and called the two of them back into chambers and said, look, I don't care whether you hate each other or not. You have an obligation to act professionally and knock this off. And I said, I can't believe I haven't been told about this yet. And he's like, well, I just think you need to intervene here. And I said, judge, totally get it. No problem. I go back across the street to our offices, to the supervisor, and say, you know, when one of our lawyers tells his partner to go fuck himself in front of the jury, that might be something I need to know. If you're wondering, you know, on the chain of information, how far does it have to go up? That should go to the top. He's like, well, I was trying to handle it myself. I'm like, no. So I called the two of them in and said to them, like, essentially the same thing. The judge said, like, you represent the United States of America. I don't care how much you hate each other. You never have to work with each other again. But you have to finish this trial successfully and professionally. So something I never thought I would have to do as U.S. attorney, which was to remind these highly educated lawyers that you should not tell one of you to go fuck yourself during the trial in front of a jury. And just to show that, like, I was not immune to the use of such language, we had a very big case grown out of the corporate fraud task force called United States versus Walter Forbes and Kirk Shelton. It was the Sendon Corporation, which owned Avis, Rent A Car, and a number of other things. They were engaged in wild, wild fraud of inflating earnings, falsely, et cetera. And we're trying this case. It's supposed to be tried in New Jersey. Obviously, it's a New Jersey company brought by the New Jersey U.S. attorney's office. But the judge who caught the case, may he rest in peace, did not want to try the case. He thought it was too complicated. And so Brendan Sullivan Represented Walter Forbes.
- [44:34]
A
Brendan Sullivan, by the way, is a very famous attorney. He's in the Iran Contra hearings where he tries to advise his client, Oliver North. And they. You're like, sir, you know, shut up. And he goes, I'm not a potted plant. I'm his attorney. And the I'm not a potted plant becomes lawyer lore. Everyone says, I'm not a potted plant for at least 20 years later, I feel like it's fallen out of favor, but I want to bring it back.
- [45:00]
B
Let's bring it back. So he makes a motion to change venue to Connecticut because the New Jersey forum was inconvenient to his client, who lived in Connecticut. And the judge granted it and sent us to Hartford, Connecticut. So we got to. So now I've got to move three trial lawyers. Literally, the trial went on for eight months. We had to move them to Connecticut. They left their families for eight months. It was awful. And in the midst of this, apparently the guy who was third chair did not like some of the assignments he was getting, so just decided to leave. He just left and didn't show up for trial for three days. Now, I didn't know this. No one told me. So I called the lead lawyer just to check in with him after this had happened, and he said, oh, no, things are going much better now that I won't use the guy's name. This lawyer has returned to the trial. I go, what do you mean, return to the trial? And the guy got really quiet on the end of the phone. He goes, well, you know, look, you could talk to Charlie and Michelle who were in my front office about that. Don't worry about it. Everything's fine. So I then call Charlie, who was my executive assistant U.S. attorney, and Michelle Brown, who was the Counsel to the U.S. attorney, down to my office and say, what happened in Connecticut when so and so left the trial for three days? And the two of them look completely pale. And they're like, well, we were trying to handle it. We didn't need to elevate it to you. I said, it's the single biggest trial going on in the office right now. One of our guys goes awol, and you don't think you have to elevate that to me. And I. And I was young. I was probably 42 at that point. And I just started screaming at them. And with every curse word you can imagine, this is about 8:30 at night in the office. And I am. Who do you guys think you are? Do I need to take you to the door and show you whose name is on the door. I mean, I am just obliterating the two of them. Now, in the federal building, we had folks who were on the janitorial staff were people with developmental disabilities. And the guy who took care of the cleanup on the seventh floor where my office was was this six foot five guy named Bruce. Wonderful guy, big hearted, fabulous guy. Bruce hears me screaming at them as he's coming to empty my garbage can, and he turns away and walks away. I get done excoriating these two, and then Bruce comes back to empty my garbage can. Now, Bruce never said much of anything to me except if I were there, except, good evening. How you doing, boss? He used to call me boss. How you doing, boss? He comes in and he picks up the garbage can. He shakes his head and he said, boss, I've seen some ass kickings in my life, but I ain't ever seen an ass kicking like that. And he, like, dumped my garbage can into his bigger garbage can and walked away. And I was like. That was the moment I knew I had probably gone overboard when Bruce the janitor was like, oh, my God, I've never seen an ass kicking like that in my life. I had to go in and apologize to the two of them. So you learn all kinds of things about temperament and the use of language when you're in that job, dealing with people who have large egos and trying to make sure that you manage them in a way that's good, but also don't beat them up. And I think that's a good lesson for any lawyer who wants to get into any supervisory position. You know, these are human beings you're dealing with, and you need to be firm. But there are moments when you can go overboard and people really take it seriously coming from someone that they have to report to.
- [48:52]
D
I would be totally remiss if I did not ask you to put on your adjudicator hat and adjudicate a dispute between Sarah and me. And that dispute is, should you go to law school? And here is my assessment. Go to law school if you want to be a lawyer or if you're not really sure what you want to do in life and you can get into a good law school. That law school is a dramatically option expanding choice. It gives you a lot of additional options in life. Sarah says. And Sarah, please tell me if I'm steel manning you or not. That that's crazy, because when you go to law school, you're going to get channeled into law. And if you don't want to be a lawyer, you're going to find yourself very miserable, or if you were very ambivalent, you might find yourself very miserable. So law school is for people who know they want to be lawyers. I say it's for people who want to be lawyers and people who honestly aren't quite sure yet. They're not ready yet to make a decision. And I advise law school as an option expanding choice. It will give you a lot more options. Where are you on this?
- [50:00]
B
I don't think you should go to law school if you have no interest at all in being a lawyer. But I do think, look, when I went to law school, I absolutely wanted to be a lawyer. I was committed to, to wanting to do that. But once I started practicing law, I wasn't so sure that it had been the right choice and went on to go into politics and public life. And I think I had much more credibility in those realms as a lawyer. So I do agree with David's part that it is option expanding. I also think that it teaches you a way to think that is valuable no matter what else you pursue. And that's why you see so many CEOs are lawyers. That's why you see that so many entrepreneurs also are lawyers. Like it teaches you a way to critically think that I think will serve you well the rest of your life. So I guess I kind of agree with both of you a bit. I do agree with Sarah that if you have no interest in being a lawyer, then don't go. I mean, that's not what you should be doing. But I don't think just because you went to law school, you have to be a lawyer. And I don't think it's limiting. And I don't think the only way you're going to get shoehorned into being a lawyer is if you let yourself be shoehorned into being a lawyer. In the end, no one can look at a legal education and say you are no better for it. I think you are always better for having had a legal education. And it may not be that practice of law is your thing, but it will make you a better fill in the blank, whatever else you're going to try to do. A better writer, a better reader, a better thinker, a better critical thinker, and I think a better mediator in life in general. Unless you're a complete jerk, and we know plenty of those. But no education would have helped them. They would have never been able to be a good mediator. But when you are someone who has a good personality, who cares about that kind of thing. The law. The legal education, I think, helps with that, too.
- [52:16]
A
I like to grade people based on the answer they give to this question. And despite your B reputation, I'm actually going to give that one an A minus.
- [52:26]
B
Well, let me say this. I'm just. I really want to retire now. That I got an A minus in anything from Sarah Isker is really overwhelming because when she first came aware of me in 2015, 2016, I wouldn't have gotten an A minus for my tie, let alone anything else. Certainly nothing that came out of my mouth. Although I do wonder, how did you feel on the night that your candidate was not in New Hampshire on the debate stage? Did I do okay with Marco Rubio?
- [52:57]
A
I was sitting in a very sad hotel room with a box of relatively cold pizza. It was really cold that week, as you remember. So even getting the pizza delivered, like, it was already pretty cold by the time it got up there. And it was just one of, like, the most depressing nights of my life up to that point. Because the most depressing time would come two months later when she endorsed Ted Cruz. And we were sitting on the Ted Cruz for President bus. And I felt like a conquered. The people who get conquered and then are brought in the wagon trail basically in like, chains or whatever in the back. And I sat there with my headphones and just listened to the Hamilton soundtrack on repeat. That was the most depressing day of 2016.
- [53:40]
B
I'm depressed for you.
- [53:43]
A
Wait, do you remember when Carly then. I think it was even that same day when we went to some event and like, she's. It's when he announces her as vice. His vice presidential pick, and she fell off the stage.
- [53:55]
B
I remember very, very well. And in fact, the funny part of that story was when that happened, I was actually on Trump Force One with the current president of the United States, and we together watched her fall off the stage. And he looked at me. He looked at me and just started to laugh and he said, what a loser. So if that makes you feel even worse, that's what was going on in real time. I will tell. Maybe I can end with one since I brought up Trump Force One. One. Donald Trump, Trump Force One story. We were campaigning together prior to Super Tuesday, and he has a bedroom in the airplane and he retreated to the bedroom when we were about 15 or 20 minutes out from landing. And I heard him yell, chris, come here. So, okay, I walk back to the bedroom and he is putting makeup on himself. He does his own makeup. You might be shocked to learn. And he says to me, come here. That's what. He goes, you need a little makeup. And I said, yeah, no, I'll pass. And he said, no, no, no. He goes, you look tired. You got circles under your eyes. You need me to give you a little bit of makeup? And I. And he's got, like, the powder puff, and he's ready to go. And I'm like, seriously, you are not putting makeup on me. I'm drawing the line there. No chance. And he goes, all right, all right. And he finishes putting his makeup on, and he looks at me, and he says, you know, what's gonna happen when we walk off the plane together? And I said, no, what's gonna happen? He goes, they're gonna say, who's the old guy with Trump?
- [55:46]
D
Really?
- [55:48]
B
And I said, you know, like, when people ask me at times about, like, you know, I've known Trump now for 23 years, and we've obviously had an interesting relationship over that period of time. But when they ask, like, how do people like him so much or whatever, it's stories like that. There is a part of Donald Trump, it's become increasingly and increasingly less visible as he's gotten more and more angry and bitter and arrogant. But there was that part of him that was really funny and really charming at times, and that was one of those moments that was a legitimately funny thing to say. Like, you know, who's the old guy? You know, with Trump? And I laughed, and, you know, there was that part of him that I think, unfortunately for him, and now that he's president again, unfortunately for the country, you know, he doesn't show us nearly as much of anymore. I don't even know if it's in him anymore. He's so angry and bitter. I mean, I think he may be the angriest and bitterest president of my lifetime, and that's saying something since I lived during the Richard Nixon period as well.
- [56:56]
A
Before we go, for those of you listening to this podcast on a Friday, it turns out David French has been cheating on us with Holy Post Media. And they made a theme song for when David joins their podcast. And gov, I think you need to hear this, too.
- [57:14]
D
Guess what day it is. It's French fry day. It's French fry day. So grab your fries and see say hooray. David French is here to play on French Friday. It's French Fry Day.
- [57:28]
B
Oh, wow. You've made it.
- [57:31]
D
I've made it. Because, Governor, you don't know may not know the backstory of that voice. There's this children's cartoon called Veggie Tales that was huge in. Yeah, yeah. So VeggieTales created by Phil Vischer. Bob the Tomato, Larry Cucumber. That's Phil Vischer, that theme song. So for me, you know, evangelical guy, my kids were raised on veggietales. I mean, like, this is, this is peak stuff here.
- [57:57]
A
All right, with that, the 55th governor of New Jersey and my ABC co star. I mean, I'm going to elevate our status here. Thanks for coming, David.
- [58:06]
B
Thank you, Sarah. Thank you for having me.
- [58:08]
D
Thank you.
- [58:08]
B
Govern.
- [58:39]
A
Amazon gasta menos son riemas Mike.
- [58:42]
C
And Alyssa are always trying to outdo each other. When Alyssa got a small water bottle, Mike showed up with a 4 liter jug. When Mike started gardening, Alyssa started beekeeping. They called a truce for their holiday and used Expedia trip planner to collaborate on all the details of their trip. Once there, Mike still did more laps around the pool.
- [59:03]
B
Whatever.
- [59:05]
C
You were made to outdo your holidays. We were made to help organize the competition. Expedia made to travel.