Joe Salsih (1:39)

Isn't that funny? But Paula called the future.

Paula Pant (1:42)

As usual. We are here to answer some money questions and we're going to start with a question from Andrew.

Andrew (1:49)

Thanks, Paula. I think this question's very much in line with your brand about you can afford anything, but not everything. So I've got a question. I'm a small time real estate investor as well as in the s and P500 index funds. So this is kind of an asset allocation question. I have some real estate. If you add up the principal and interest the P and I of the mortgage annually. So the monthly mortgage times 12 divided by the principal, it's about 10% every year that I pay on a 4% ish mortgage. And so when would it make sense to sell index funds, pay a capital gains of the market rate over the last five plus years and then pay off that mortgage. A lot of us are familiar with the 4% rule, but in some ways, I think, question mark, that I'm buying myself a 10% bond per se, or a 10%. So if I pay 150 grand off, I'll save. It's like 14,500 annually in P&I payments. 10% is when would that make sense? Because the S p grows at 10% with volatility, but paying off my mortgage is a 10% cash flow in my mind.

Paula Pant (3:09)

Do you want to expand your real estate portfolio?

Andrew (3:11)

I think that's a question that's in my head where if I were to pay this off, I think I could fire. And that's kind of like bare bones, lean fire. We've all gone through a frugality phase, but I don't think that's the end all be all. Could I live off of that rental income? Yeah. But could I buy a better family house off that? No. So that's kind of the predicament. I've thought about saving those index funds, using those to start a business or scale my real estate portfolio. Or do I just fire, quit my W2 job and then spend a lot more time on building a business with 40 hours a week to focus on that and just live on my rentals and get discretionary income from a future business income.

Paula Pant (3:58)

So between the W2 job that you currently have and the business that you would start if you fired, which one is your calling?

Andrew (4:07)

Definitely not my W2 corporate job.

Joe Salsih (4:09)

Who knew he'd answer that?

Andrew (4:12)

I definitely feel called entrepreneurship. And that's kind of why I stepped out into real estate investing. Call it halfway entrepreneurship. And I'm very comfortable with that model and the volatility and the taking a risk to come to a conference and very much called to that. I'm very not corporately called.

Paula Pant (4:32)

All right, I think there's the answer then.

Joe Salsih (4:35)

You know, my answer, Andrew, is almost always to solve for flexibility. Like, which one gives me the most flexibility now, it's funny, if you would have told me your goal was to retire, stop working, then I would have said pay off the loans now. Because at that point, it's no longer a math problem. It's much more about a security issue. And what's funny is a guy named Wes Moss in our community wrote this book that I like a lot called what the Happiest Retirees Know. And the happiest retirees are people that know the math. They understand, they get it, that this is suboptimal but they still pay off the debt just to get rid of the mind space. So even if it wasn't 10% versus 10%, let's say it was some of these retirees that we talked to, Paula, that are at 4 and a half percent, 4%, they still pay off the debt just so that they don't have this lurking in their brain. It recaptures the mind share. But because that's not your goal, because it's entrepreneurship. I really like the fact that that money in The S&P 500 is flexible money. And even though that's probably too much of a roller coaster for me to want to go grab it at X day, I like the fact that you can where with the house. You know, we've joked about this before, Paula. You can't go sell a bathroom, right? Just sell a little piece of the property. And even if you could, look at how long that would take to get your cash. If you could peel off the bathroom to get the cash, it would still take you a few months. There had to be a buyer. The price is negotiable. You don't know what it is. So I like the flexibility of having the S and P out there.

Andrew (6:10)

One minor counterargument to that is the access of a heloc. I have a HELOC on my owner occupied duplex and I could pull 50 to 100 out in cash today if I, if I needed to.

Joe Salsih (6:24)

100%.

Andrew (6:25)

Yeah.

Joe Salsih (6:26)

But well, just my argument back because that's a very popular way that I have access to all this debt. Look at back at what happened in 2007, 2008, when all of a sudden that debt was no longer available. And it's funny because, okay, this is the former financial planner in me, but what probably won't happen to you is something bad will come along right after you go grab that debt. But when I was working with 125 families, there was always something bad happening to one of those families. It always happened right after you used the HELOC and grab that money. And now your ability to repay it for whatever reason, a disability, whatever happens, you don't have the ability. So I prefer personally, on the order of operations, to stay away from debt as much as I can. And when I take leverage, I know exactly what that lever is and how I'm going to pay it back. And even if my other stream of income to pay it back goes away, that I have another way to attack it. So I do like leverage. But my impetus would be to stay.

Andrew (7:27)

Away from the heloc Yeah, I think that's wise. I very thankful to Dave Ramsey's whole program. He helped get me out of student loan debt and car debt, and so I still very much am tied to that. Even though a real estate investor. You know, I have multiple mortgages, but that's why currently I've decided to keep those index funds. So I can just write the check for whatever I need to. If it's a coming to a conference, buying a camera and a Mac laptop, for starting a YouTube channel, whatever that business expenses, I'd much rather write a check. And I keep in the S and P versus like a money market per se, because I don't think I need to write a big check now. But if I ever need to, I'll just. Even if it's a down market, I'll just sell it and chase my calling.

Paula Pant (8:12)

I think you have the correct framing in that the framing of the question is W2 versus this new business. Because in terms of the level of time that you're going to give to each, you know, if you start a business that's going to require as much time as your W2, if not more, typically it's going to require more. You know, there's that expression, you'll work 60 hours to avoid working 40. Right.

Joe Salsih (8:39)

For somebody else.

Paula Pant (8:40)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You'll work 60 for yourself to avoid working 40 for someone else. Particularly in the beginning. That's true. Sometimes the framing will be, oh, should I. Should I focus on rental properties? Or should I focus on starting some type of a online business? But those are very different things. Right. So I think you've got the correct framing in terms of rental properties are more analogous to an index fund investment. Whereas you said you wanted to start a YouTube channel or you have recently started a YouTube channel. Starting a YouTube channel is analogous to having a W2 job.

Andrew (9:14)

Yeah. And like, part of me with respect to feeling the calling is I enjoy doing the remodels myself. I enjoy the real estate business, but I'm almost like bummed air quotes that I can't work on it all the time. I want to scale that income, but I'm like, I don't want to just like, upgrade my gutters because I'm bored and start spending money or clean the gutters for a fourth time. It's just like, you know how to.

Joe Salsih (9:38)

Spend a Saturday night having fun, Andrew?

Andrew (9:40)

Yeah, absolutely. So it's like, how do I just, like, work more on a thing? I want to work more and grow that business. Because if I could work 40 or 60 hours a week on my real estate business. I would, and one could argue I should start wholesaling and trying to locate more deals, but I don't. And so I'm like, I just want to ditch the W2 schedule and air quotes, be allowed to work on what I want to work on and lay the gas pedal down.

Paula Pant (10:07)

Right, yeah. Okay. Yeah, Perfect. I think. Then optimize for whatever does that. Like at this point, you're not optimizing for. Even for money, air quotes, money. You're optimizing for leaving the constraints of the W2.

Andrew (10:20)

Yeah. I'm just chasing my calling.

Paula Pant (10:22)

Yeah.

Andrew (10:23)

Yeah.

Joe Salsih (10:23)

How far, Andrew, are you away from doing that now? Because one thing we see often, especially in the money nerd community, is one more year syndrome. Right. We love certainty. To your point. My point. We both love staying away from debt. So we're like, I'm just going to stay with it a little bit longer until we realize too late that we spent too long.

Andrew (10:43)

If I were to pay off these rentals, my rental cash flow would equal my day job income. So I just save 70 to 100% of my day job income because it's like easy. But I'm like, well, what am I going to do with another 10 grand or 100 grand? Like part of the question at this conference is should I put in my two week notice on Monday and just, you know, put the gas pedal down on YouTube and. Or, you know, whatever else I think I may do because I can not because I have the plan laid out. But I need time. I want to go spend a thousand hours on it.

Joe Salsih (11:15)

You know, take your phone in with you.

Paula Pant (11:17)

Right.

Joe Salsih (11:18)

And make it YouTube content. You quitting your job.

Andrew (11:20)

Yes.

Joe Salsih (11:21)

That'll go viral.

Paula Pant (11:23)

Oh, that'll go super. But wasn't there some. There was a video that went viral of someone getting laid off. Remember that? That was like a few months ago.

Joe Salsih (11:29)

I feel like I see those on Tik Tok every third day now.

Paula Pant (11:32)

Yeah, yeah.

Joe Salsih (11:33)

And you can. You're watching their face while their boss is.

Paula Pant (11:36)

Yeah. Doing like a bye bye mass layoff over zoom.

Joe Salsih (11:39)

Right?

Paula Pant (11:40)

Yeah. Oh, and it's TikTok. Depressing.

Joe Salsih (11:44)

It is so depressing.

Paula Pant (11:45)

Yeah. And speaking of getting depressed by watching too much TikTok, that actually leads to the next question that we're going to answer. Andrew, do you have any follow ups? Have we sufficiently answered? Are you feeling good?

Andrew (11:57)

Yeah, feeling great. And much appreciated for your insights and wisdom.

Paula Pant (12:01)

Thank you. Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, thank you. All right, we're going to take a quick break to hear from the sponsors who make this possible. And when we return, we're going to hear a question from someone who is wondering how to avoid the inevitable depression that comes from watching too much TikTok.

Dave Meyer (12:23)

Hey everyone, Dave Meyer here to tell you about Laurel Road. Laurel Road is a digital banking platform and brand of KeyBank that provides tailored solutions to support the financial wellbeing of healthcare and business professionals. In April 2019, Laurel Road became part of KeyBank, which is one of the nation's largest bank based financial service companies and a member of the fdic. Laurel Road's banking and lending solutions include student loan refinancing, mortgages, personal loans, student loan cash back, credit cards, tailored savings accounts, and more. And right now, for just a limited time, Laurel Road's High Yield Savings Account has an annual percentage yield greater than 4%. That's up to 10 times the national savings rate. And the nice part about this digital account is that it features zero monthly service fees, no minimum balance requirement, and costs $0 to open. With perks like that, you'll be seeing results and better buying power for your buck in no time. Visit laurel laurelroad.com pockets to learn more and see other ways they can benefit you. Tell them Bigger pockets than you Laurel Road your Partner on the Road to Financial Peace of Mind Equal Housing Lender.

Paula Pant (13:22)

Member FDIC Monarch is the modern way.

Unknown (13:25)

To manage your money. Whether you need to stick to a budget, track your investments or collaborate with your partner, you'll get clarity, confidence and peace of mind for your finances. With Monarch. Here are a few things that I like about it.

Paula Pant (13:36)

First of all, there's a widget that's.

Unknown (13:38)

Directly on my phone.

Paula Pant (13:39)

I could just I see it at a glance in the same way that I look at the weather so I.

Unknown (13:43)

Can really quickly glance at my most recent transactions.

Paula Pant (13:45)

And I also can see these dashboards where I see my income, I see my expenses, I see how much I'm spending in different categories.

Unknown (13:53)

It's just a really good At a.

Paula Pant (13:55)

Glance on your phone way for me.

Unknown (13:57)

To get a quick snapshot of my finances now. Monarch is the top rated all in one personal finance app because Monarch helps you make smart money moves. And right now listeners of this show can get 30% off your first year by going to monarchmoney.com Paula Monarch is super customizable. You can customize dashboards, you can create budgets and notifications. And the Wall Street Journal awarded Monarch the best budgeting app of 2024. After trying out Monarch for myself, I get why it's the top rated personal finance app. And right now, listeners of this show will get 30% off your first year when you go to monarchmoney.com Paula that's M O n a r C H M o n e y.com Paula to get 30% off your first year. When you think about businesses that grow their sales beyond forecasts like feastables by MrBeast or a legacy business like Mattel.

Paula Pant (14:50)

You know you've got a product with.

Unknown (14:51)

A lot of demand, you've got a focused brand. But there's also an overlooked secret. And that is the business behind the business that makes selling and buying simple. And for millions of businesses, that is Shopify. Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. And it includes shop pay, which boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going. If you're growing your business, your commerce platform needs to be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling, whether that's online or in your store. Because businesses that sell more sell on Shopify. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout that Feastables by MrBeast and Mattel uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period@shopify.com Paula all lowercase go to shopify.com to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com Paula.

Joe Salsih (15:53)

Welcome back to Afford Anything Live everyone. Paula Speaking of depressing, I used to work at a Pepsi bottling plant.

Paula Pant (16:00)

Oh, it was so depressing.

Joe Salsih (16:05)

Sorry, I had to. It was right there.

Paula Pant (16:08)

Oh.

Joe Salsih (16:10)

She'S like, take that out.

Paula Pant (16:12)

No, no, no, we're keeping that in. We're keeping that in. Well, our next question comes from someone who to the best of my knowledge, does not work at a Pepsi bottling plant. His name is Chris.

Chris (16:25)

I do not. Thank you. Hi, Paula.

Paula Pant (16:26)

Hi.

Chris (16:27)

The question really is more of like a general question, not specific to like money and numbers. But I have two children that are both Gen Z. They're 22 and 24. We often hear that Gen Z isn't saving for retirement. They have a very doom and gloom outlook because inflation is very high, income is low, they can't afford to buy a house, they can't afford to pay rent, just cost of living. Everything is very, very high. Having a conversation with my daughter, you know, she mentioned, well, dad, don't you know that my generation will never retire and it makes me super sad. And so, you know, we, I'm just wondering what are some of the things that we can do? I mean, I'm a Gen XER but like the older generation, to really help the younger generation understand that, you know, one, yeah, you don't have to work until you're 65 and then die. But also, it's not all doom and gloom out there. How do we frame that?

Paula Pant (17:28)

First of all, thank you for asking that question, because it's a really important one. A few things come to mind right away. So I'm a millennial, and I remember the same narrative happening 15 years ago when the older millennials were in their early 20s. That same script of the year is now 2008. We're graduating into a Great Recession. There are no jobs. We've graduated into the worst job market. We lived through 9, 11, and we lived through the dot com burst, and now we're living through this. And it was, there was this whole narrative that you would hear in the mainstream media around millennials have it so tough, and millennials aren't saving and millennials aren't investing. And in fact, I actually had to push back. Once we had a sponsor, they gave me this stupid, stupid ad script that I refused to read where they wanted me to perpetuate that narrative of millennials aren't saving enough. I refused to do it because when you actually start digging into the data, that just wasn't true. First, Millennials are not a monolith. And inside of this cohort, there are some what people used to call blue collar workers, non college educated laborers, who are seeing jobs in their small towns decline. And that subset of millennials, and now that subset of Gen Z are seeing some very serious economic hardship. Right? So there is absolutely that cohort, but among college educated millennials and now Gen Z, actually, when you dig into the data around millennials, that narrative of millennials aren't investing, which we heard so much in the aftermath of the Great Recession, isn't true. And anyone who bought into that narrative and therefore monkey see, monkey do, like therefore thought, well, I don't really need to invest because nobody in my pure cohort is investing. If you bought into that narrative, then you put yourself behind. Because if you actually dig into that data, there are a whole bunch of millennials who are millionaires, first generation millionaires. None of that money was handed down to them. They're the first generation in their family who've become millionaires. And it's because in the aftermath of the Great Recession, guess what? That's the best time to start investing. So, yeah, you graduated from undergrad in 2008, got a job making $50,000 a year, you put $4,000 a year into your 401k starting in 2009. Guess what? That money, that $4,000 that you put into your 401k in 2009 has grown a long way. And similarly, you move into a small condo with a roommate, put up a partition in the living room. So you're living in one half of the living room and the other half is. You're kind of using it as a studio apartment sort of a thing with your roommate. You scrape together the down payment by working, serving, job on the side. Yeah. That's how you bought a house in 2013, 2014, 2015. Well, guess what? That. That condo that you bought with your serving and bartending money in 2015, that you paid the mortgage with roommates, well, that condo now has like doubled in value, you know, or if not doubled, it's gone up significantly. Right.

Joe Salsih (20:52)

Look at where the focus is, though, Paula, on your answer. Because I think what happens regardless, I mean, I should have taken this question because I'm Gen Z as well, so. Well, what? That wasn't funny. Was that supposed to be funny?

Andrew (21:04)

Close enough.

Unknown (21:07)

Easy.

Joe Salsih (21:08)

I'm sitting right here. But I think that this just goes back to, frankly, to Stephen Covey, and I don't think it matters if you're Gen Z, a millennial, Gen X, that, you know, waking up and going, oh, my God, I'm in my 50s. What have I done? I've done nothing. Right. Doesn't matter what age you are. Your answer, Paula, was all on focusing on what you can control. We just have a tendency as people to quote Stephen Covey, to look at pot three stuff. There's three pots. Pot three is things we can't control, we can't influence. Pot two is things like voting where we can influence it, but we don't have control. I can still put my recommendation in for higher office or whatever it is. I can lean on people. But pot one is that stuff. And your whole answer, Paula, was all part one. If I focus on, hey, the fact that I'm going to have a roommate, I'm going to do these things, it's actually pretty funny. I had a conversation about this topic with two guys named John recently. John Lanza, who's the host of the Art of Allowance podcast. So he's always coaching parents to work with kids. And John Acuff, who's written books like Soundtracks and a bunch of other hit books, and these guys. We had a wonderful discussion about our fears, Chris, to your point as a parent, of listening to what your kids are playing in Their head. And to the degree that you can coach. These are my two big takeaways from this discussion. Takeaway number one was to the degree that you can coach them, to help them think about little p. Purpose to focus on, hey, what. What really lights me up and what is going to make me feel more fulfilled in my life. Because then we're not wasting our life worried about the void, you know what I mean? We're worried about God, I'm never going to retire. Things are always going to be bad. It's horrible. I'm not living in the same life. The people that graduated from college 20 years ago, you know, all of this stuff, I'm not living there. I. Instead, I'm looking at the things that have lit me up in the past, and I'm exploring those because we know those open doors. And then the second thing I got out of that conversation was introducing them to voices that are not you. And this is actually, I've messed up, Paul, as you know, a ton of stuff. I mess up so much. Every day I mess up. Apparently, Gen Z is not what I am, according to you guys. Laughing. Let's see. I messed up that. But one thing I think I got right was to some degree, Nick and Autumn, my kids, you know, they hear dad and they go, okay, yeah, that's great. But to some degree, you still roll your eyes because it's Dad. I introduced them to two authors I thought they'd really like. At the time, it was Aaron Lowry broke Millennial and Scott Trench was set for life. And I gotta tell you, introducing them to voices, giving them surround sound, that wasn't me, but was much more positive, focused. Paula, back to your answer. What can I control, right? My daughter, she's one of Erin Lowry's biggest fans. She just loves that. My son, I swear to God. Paula, you've met Nick. Nick is Scott Trench.

Paula Pant (24:08)

Yeah, yeah, he is a mini Scott Trench.

Joe Salsih (24:11)

Those two. Chris, you just met Nick, he is totally mini Scott Drench. And he just. When he read Set for Life, that became his blueprint. It's not Dad's blueprint. You know, real estate, I think is okay. No offense, Andrew or Paul, you know, I think it's all right. It's great. It's a way to get there, but it's not for me, but for my son, it's a great way to get there. And now my kids are focusing on what they can control. So that would be my advice. We often talk about the thinking behind your thinking, Paula. Yeah, the thinking mind. Your thinking was As I heard you say, focusing on things that you can do, not on the zeitgeist.

Paula Pant (24:45)

Right. Because so much of that dominant narrative. Okay. There's this perception that you necessarily need to live in a single family home that you can buy entirely with one paycheck. It's a very restrictive way of looking at the situation.

Joe Salsih (25:06)

Well, and it's also not the way we live anymore.

Paula Pant (25:08)

Right.

Joe Salsih (25:08)

The average person changes jobs every 4.2 years. There's a chance if they're not working online, Paula, they're gonna move. Why the hell am I gonna invest in a house that I live in by myself with a white picket fence and I'm gonna sink a bunch of money into this primary place and then lose my ass on it because I move again 4.2 years from now.

Paula Pant (25:29)

Right, Exactly.

Andrew (25:30)

I think there's just a lot of fear of the unknown in people. And I think all of us learn differently visually, audibly writing it out. And for me, reading J.L. collins Pathfinders or finding how did somebody do a bunch of random things, not even the thing that I want to do, but like directionally, kind of close. And you just hear these stories of success. And for me, I go to a real estate investor meetup locally and I hear people doing things in real life. And I come to a conference and I meet Paula Pant who's doing these things in real life. So if, if your kids could get around people that are doing the things and you know, keyword doing. And maybe they need to read books like Pathfinders or Millionaire Next Door or maybe they need to watch a YouTube video more than a 20 second TikTok.

Chris (26:22)

Of like that's all, that's all they get is TikTok.

Andrew (26:24)

Right.

Chris (26:24)

I've purchased Set for Life for both my kids and they refuse to read it.

Andrew (26:28)

So yeah, so they learn in their own ways and that's great. And, and I'm not going to try to imply the best way that they learn. And then another thing too, I think kind of speaking to your small p purpose, but like faith is a big part of my life. And so I think finding a bigger purpose in their own life and somewhat getting outside of themselves in some fashion, that's a good fit for them, I think can be important to and help.

Joe Salsih (26:54)

Andrew, you totally nailed it because we're at this wonderful conference fin con. And Paula, you know, before I joined this community, I would have never thought that I would have done any of the badass stuff that I've done since then. I sold my house, I sold all my possessions. I became a nomad. I feel I figured out that I hated it. I would have never done any of those things, tried out any of that, if it wasn't for inspiration, inspiring people like you guys and 100% Andrew, get yourself around people that can inspire you to push the barriers back that are between your ears.

Chris (27:29)

Yeah. I've invited my kids to events like Campfire to meet others. You know, there's 20 somethings there, and I want to try to help them understand that it's not just, you know, they always say it's just a bunch of old white guys talking about money. That's not what it is. It's so diverse. There's all walks of life. Right. All ages. Like, I want to somehow try to communicate to the Gen Z's out there, too, that you can do this no matter where you come from or how old you are. Yeah.

Paula Pant (28:00)

So I wonder if part of the question is, how do you encourage your kids to have sources of information that are not TikTok?

Chris (28:09)

Yes. That's the number one question.

Paula Pant (28:11)

Yes. There's a great quote from the Simpsons. I find there's a lot of wisdom on the Simpsons. There's so much. There's so much.

Joe Salsih (28:19)

There is.

Chris (28:19)

They have foreshadowed so many things that happened.

Paula Pant (28:22)

Right.

Chris (28:23)

Like, it's so crazy.

Paula Pant (28:24)

It's incredible. But there's a wonderful quote from a recent episode of the Simpsons where Lisa is reading a book and Bart looks at her and goes, lisa, put that book down and pick up a phone.

Chris (28:37)

I love it.

Joe Salsih (28:40)

And it is hard because to some degree, you're dad. And so you get the eye roll. Right. And all three of us on this talk with the two Johns, which sounds weird, me and the two Johns, they also talked about sharing your fears with them, like, just volunteering. Hey, here's what I'm afraid of when it comes to my next move. Sharing your entrepreneurial spirit because you're an entrepreneurial guy. Like, the things that you're doing and sharing that. And then when they get in your car, instead of having heavy metal music on, have on a podcast. You know what I mean? I've done that trick with my kids, too. I would put in an inspirational podcast that I know they're gonna love that I've heard a hundred times. And I may or may not have put it exactly to the spot that I wanted them to hear. Not saying I did it, but I might have. I'm like, wow, that's weird. That came on right now, like, subliminal.

Chris (29:33)

You're trying to like get it to them in their sleep or something.

Andrew (29:35)

Yeah.

Joe Salsih (29:36)

This might apply to you, Nick. That's weird.

Andrew (29:39)

Yeah, I think we all need a little empowering and lifting up and encouragement and mentorship and whether you're Gen X or a Gen Z.

Joe Salsih (29:47)

So yeah, ask if you can maybe as a holiday gift too. You know, there's so many inspiring coaches or sessions with coaches that you might be able to buy. Like I would get their buy in first going, hey, if I bought you a session with Paula Pan, I don't even know if you do sessions.

Paula Pant (30:02)

I don't.

Joe Salsih (30:02)

Whatever. Okay.

Paula Pant (30:03)

Yeah.

Joe Salsih (30:04)

Well there you go.

Paula Pant (30:04)

Exclusive.

Andrew (30:07)

Nice.

Joe Salsih (30:08)

But if I get a session with X person, would you like that? Show them some videos. That, that'd be a cool.

Chris (30:14)

Yeah. Well again, great feedback from all of you here. I really appreciate it.

Paula Pant (30:18)

Oh wait, I've got one more. I've got one more. Because I was thinking about, was it your daughter who said, dad, don't you know that my generation's not going to retire?

Chris (30:27)

Correct.

Paula Pant (30:28)

What's interesting to me about that comment is that if you believe that you will never retire, then you won't work towards retirement, you won't save towards retirement because you believe that it's impossible. And therefore the belief that it's impossible starts to become a self fulfilling prophecy. And so I think one of the ways to break out of that is to have something type of financial goal, some smaller and more immediate financial goal that she thinks is impossible, that in a short period of time can be demonstrated as possible. So it kind of goes on. The Dave Ramsey philosophy of small wins. Andrew, as you know, because you said you like Dave Ramsey, one of the things, and I know he's a controversial figure for a variety of reasons, but one of the things that he really nailed is the psychological benefit of having a small win up front. The philosophy, I'm just saying this for the sake of the wider audience. The philosophy that he teaches is called a debt snowball. Rather than listing your debts in order of their interest rate, from highest interest to lowest interest, you list your debts in order of their size, from smallest debt to largest debt. And so you might have a very small debt of $100, for example. Cool. Maybe it's a 0% interest debt. Right. Maybe it's an interest free debt from your sister for 100 bucks. But you pay that one off first.

Joe Salsih (31:56)

Wipe it out.

Paula Pant (31:57)

Yeah, you wipe it out. Just so you get the psychological victory of like, hey, I did that. And so I'm trying to think of what that analog would be in terms of a retirement context. Because it sounds to me, Chris, like what your daughter needs is the psychological victory of here's this thing that I thought was impossible or that I thought was really difficult, a financial goal, but I did it. And if I can do this thing, then maybe I can do other big things, you know, so maybe that would be, I don't know, backpacking through Europe for two weeks or maybe go somewhere cheaper, like backpacking through, oh, Argentina. Dollar exchange rate goes really far in Argentina right now, you know, but traveling through Argentina for two weeks, it feels like a really big goal. But if she can save up her own money with your help, with your guidance, not your financial help, but with your wisdom, if she can save up her own money and pay for that trip herself, that's a financial victory. And if she can do that, what else can she do?

Chris (33:00)

I like it. I like it.

Andrew (33:01)

I think that's great advice. Just like we've all heard of the downward spiral, I think there's also an upward spiral. So, like Dave Ramsey talks about the thousand dollar emergency fund that used to be unattainable for me, but then I realized I was like, I could save a hundred dollars this month, and after 10 relatively short months, I'll have a thousand dollars. And then after another 10 months, I'll have $2,000. And I was like, oh, I can actually save thousands of dollars. And so when you break it up, how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? And so how do you. Whatever her goal may be, whether it's backpacking or whatever, you can likely break that down into bite sized pieces.

Chris (33:42)

Yeah, I think establishing that small win up front, but also to your point, Paula, is helping remove that negative self talk that you start to believe for yourself.

Paula Pant (33:51)

Right, right.

Chris (33:52)

Yeah. So I'll share this funny story with Kaylee. So she's basically been driving for doordash, and sometimes she can make 35 bucks an hour, Right. Depending. And I remember when she first started driving, I was mentioned to her, I'm like, yeah, you're a 1099. You're gonna have to pay your own taxes. So it's smart to, like, set aside some money for taxes. And she was over the other night and she was super proud of herself. She was pulling money out in cash and saving it for taxes.

Paula Pant (34:22)

Wow.

Chris (34:22)

And I was like, that's really great. But, you know, we could find like a high yield savings account or something to put that money in. And it brought her to tears. I felt so bad.

Paula Pant (34:33)

Wait, like, like tears of sadness or no, yeah.

Chris (34:35)

She thought she was doing it wrong. I'm like, no, no, no, you're not doing it wrong. It's just you probably shouldn't just keep it in cash in your bedroom. You can put it somewhere. But it was good. She's trying. You know, I felt so bad. I was like, I'm sorry. Like that's not my intention. Wasn't to make you feel bad.

Joe Salsih (34:50)

Yeah. You're like, you're a badass. Let's just super size it now. And.

Chris (34:53)

And I was surprised too, that you can make 35 bucks an hour driving for doordash on peak times.

Andrew (34:57)

Yeah, yeah.

Joe Salsih (34:58)

And that's why Chris brought our food today.

Andrew (35:03)

I think a lot of folks definitely including younger people that maybe on average have less information of whatever field they're studying per se. It's easy to get overwhelmed, whether you're in college, studying personal finance or. Or just trying to scale up your business. My real estate portfolio, like there's always the Joneses to chase somebody that's doing it bigger, bad or better than you are. And so it is easier to get overwhelmed.

Joe Salsih (35:30)

That's the danger of TikTok. Not to cut you off, but holy.

Chris (35:33)

Cow, that's all it is.

Paula Pant (35:34)

Yeah.

Joe Salsih (35:35)

You're seeing everybody's best moment or their pretend best moment. And so you watch 20 of these videos of people supposedly doing better than you are and you immediately feel tank well.

Chris (35:46)

And I didn't go down this path. But that's the thing too. I mean, Both my kids, 22 and 24, they talk about, well, dad, it's just so much harder than when you were my age. And to a point they are correct. Right. So for instance, when I was their age, right. I bought my first house when I was 20. My house was $52,000. My first job. Right. That I got out of college. I went, I didn't. I went to a two year vocational school. My first job, I was making $38,000 a year. So again, you're buying a $52,000 house, making 38 grand. Now your house is going to be four times that. Right. And you're not going to be making percentage wise, you're going to be making a lot less than what you could afford. So I get the challenge. But still there are ways to make it work. Like you said, Paula, like get a roommate or something. Right.

Andrew (36:37)

House hack.

Chris (36:38)

House hack.

Paula Pant (36:39)

House hack. Yeah, exactly.

Joe Salsih (36:40)

We talked about this, Paula, on a recent Stack of Benjamins episode and you and OG came back strongly at. Because I brought up what, what Chris's daughter brought up, which is, it is harder. And you look at the numbers and you're like, yes. But you've never also had as many opportunities.

Paula Pant (36:57)

Right.

Joe Salsih (36:58)

You can.

Chris (36:58)

I love that. I love that you can now work online.

Joe Salsih (37:00)

I couldn't work online. You can find a new job just by boom, boom, boom. I've got a new income source. I got a new income opportunity. They sell ring lights at Target now.

Paula Pant (37:09)

I could be huge on TikTok.

Joe Salsih (37:12)

Yeah, that one makes me roll my eyes, but you know what I mean. You and OG both pushed back and went, yeah, it's hard, but there are a ton more ways to make money than there were when.

Paula Pant (37:21)

Yeah, when you were buying your first house, doordash didn't exist.

Chris (37:24)

That is true.

Paula Pant (37:25)

Right. And there's a guy by the name of Nick Loper, he's a previous guest on this podcast. He's also here at the same conference he broke down. When it comes to side hustles, he's like, you can really classify these. There are gig economy jobs like Doordash, where you have low barriers to entry. You've got a lot of flexibility, so it's a good thing to do. If you're balancing it with going to school or you're home from school on Christmas break, you can fit it into the margins of your life as you're focusing on something else. So what's positive about it is the flexibility, but what's negative about it is because it has low barriers to entry, it also has relatively lower income, lower upside. Right. That's one type of side hustle. But then there are also side hustles where you are developing some type of a product or service and there's a longer ramp up, you know, you're not necessarily going to be making money right away. Andrew, as you've discovered, as you're in the process of starting an online business, you're not necessarily going to be making money right away, but there's unlimited upside to it. And so you can eventually be making way more money than you currently do at your W2 job. And then eventually you can hire a team of full time employees. You give them health insurance, you give them retirement benefits, you give them paid time off like you become a business owner. And when you are young, Chris, when you were 20, you couldn't do that unless you had a lot of upfront capital. If you wanted to start a business back when you were your kid's age, you needed to open a brick and mortar location and that meant you needed a ton of upfront capital. The Cost of entrepreneurship has never been lower.

Chris (39:09)

I like that. So true. Yeah, I'll remember to say that my.

Paula Pant (39:14)

Kids, you could queue up the podcast to the exact right spot.

Chris (39:19)

Yeah, right when they get in the car. Right when they get in the car.

Joe Salsih (39:24)

Hey, that's weird. It's weird.

Andrew (39:26)

I think we all need to walk around Costco and just like eat all the free samples and like figure out what's a good fit for your daughter because we're supposed to pick our lifetime calling. At age 16, 17, 18, I knew nothing of what the next 50 to 80 years of my life was going to look like. I still have no idea. So you know, it's like, what am I going to be doing at age 50? Who knows?

Chris (39:51)

That's.

Andrew (39:52)

And so like your daughters are just at that age of just getting out into the world and they need to just gather experience and be hungry and find whatever avenue source is appropriate for them to find their Costco to walk around and take food samples to figure out what do they want to do. And, and you have to let them know that their self expectation of themselves to. I need to have it all figured out. I need to have my lifetime career picked out perfectly. At 22 is like we had mentioned earlier, folks change jobs every five years or so. My grandpa was a cop in Minneapolis for 25 years. That's it. And that's not my career. And that's okay. That's just not how the world works. We're in this gig economy.

Chris (40:37)

What did you think you were going to do when you were like 18, 19, 20 years old?

Andrew (40:41)

So I loved riding snowmobiles in Minnesota. So I was going to work for Polaris and design snowmobiles. So I went to mechanical engineering school, got denied at Polaris for an internship heartbreak. And then I started working at an oil refinery, which was like super cool in ways, but I. We'd have to work these big shutdowns seven days a week, 13 hour days. And there was a point where I wanted to go see my grandma who was dying of cancer and I wasn't allowed to because I had to work. So I'd go and like see her for a half an hour, you know, half asleep. Because I worked 27 days straight of 13 hour days. And I was like, I just want to like go hang out with my grandma for like four hours and like sit on the patio and grill and whatever. And luckily she didn't die like that immediate time. But afterwards of working seven weeks straight, 13 hour days, I got like a 3, 500 bonus. You know, salary. So I got paid $0 an hour for overtime working 96 hour weeks. And I was like, I. I'd make more money at McDonald's, literally. And I was like, would you find me smart or dumb to tell you I'm gonna work 12 hours at McDonald's every Saturday? I was like, you'd call me dumb because you're right. And I was like, but I come here and I could like die at the refinery for less than McDonald's. I was like, it's a lot. I'd rather listen to podcasts and flip burgers because I think I'd get, you know. He's like, well, you get good experience. I was like, yeah, yeah. Cool.

Chris (42:06)

So, Paula, you didn't realize that both of us are from Minneapolis.

Paula Pant (42:09)

Oh, I'm cool. I did not realize that.

Chris (42:11)

Right.

Joe Salsih (42:11)

Welcome to Minnesota. The podcast.

Chris (42:13)

I know. Don't you know?

Joe Salsih (42:14)

Okay, there.

Chris (42:15)

You betcha.

Andrew (42:16)

Oh, yeah.

Chris (42:17)

So When I was 18, 19, my hair was down to here and I was going to be in a metal band from the rest of my life. That clearly didn't happen. So you never know.

Andrew (42:25)

Yeah. You can maybe give your daughters an encouragement. Like, I'm not a rock star, but I thought I was going to be.

Chris (42:30)

There you go.

Joe Salsih (42:31)

Clearly you are a rock star, just in a different way.

Chris (42:35)

We're all rock stars. I love you, Jill.

Paula Pant (42:38)

So you ended up not becoming a rock star.

Chris (42:41)

I did not.

Paula Pant (42:42)

But for your kids today, if one of them had aspirations of being a musician, think of the opportunities that they have that you didn't think of. Let's say one of your kids was really into playing guitar.

Andrew (42:58)

Right.

Paula Pant (42:59)

All of the ways that you could make money online around teaching guitar.

Chris (43:05)

Absolutely, 100%. They would be on TikTok, they would be on Instagram, they'd have a YouTube channel, they'd be selling merch, they'd be doing all of the things right.

Andrew (43:14)

It's possible for sure.

Paula Pant (43:15)

Yeah, exactly.

Andrew (43:16)

They'd likely even believe that too.

Paula Pant (43:18)

Yeah. I mean, I just think if one of your kids wanted to be a heavy metal rock star, they could.

Chris (43:25)

Sure.

Paula Pant (43:25)

I think, speaking probabilistically, there is a much higher likelihood that they would be able to earn a full time living as a heavy metal musician because of all of those opportunities that are available to them. So I might talk to them about that. They're living in this era of opportunity that you just didn't have.

Chris (43:45)

Good call.

Joe Salsih (43:46)

That's interesting, Paula, because as you're talking, I'm thinking about also. Where's the emphasis? If the emphasis is on I'm never going to retire, then I'm thinking way, way, way out. What I like about that answer again, thinking about the thinking is pulling it back to let's save for that, but let's let it go. Besides saving for it, let's get rid of a little bit of uncertainty by putting some money toward this person. I'm going to be a long time in the future, but let's spend most of our time thinking, what am I going to be today? What am I going to do today right now? Because it's easy to freak out thinking about the future. I'm listening to a book I know, Chris, that you like Strength to Strength.

Chris (44:24)

Strength to Strength. Yep.

Joe Salsih (44:25)

Listening to Strength to Strength. Everybody's afraid to die and you can focus on that a lot. I have a family member who spends zero time living because they spend so much time worried about dying. And I think that that's in a lot of ways the same thing here. I'm so freaked out about the future I'm never going to retire that I'm not thinking about today and what lights me up right now.

Paula Pant (44:49)

So when you say they spend zero time living because they're always worried about dying, in what actionable ways does that manifest worse?

Unknown (44:57)

We'll hear the answer to that question right after this break.

Unknown (45:02)

AI might be the most important new computer technology ever. It's storming every industry and literally billions of dollars are being invested. So buckle up. The problem is that AI needs a lot of speed and processing power. So how do you compete without costs spiraling out of control? It's time to upgrade to the next generation of the cloud, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, or oci. OCI is a single platform for your infrastructure, database, application development, and AI needs. OCI has four to eight times the bandwidth of other clouds, offers one consistent price instead of a variable regional pricing. And of course, nobody does data better than Oracle. So now you can train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half the cost of other clouds. If you want to do more and spend less, like Uber 8x8 and Databricks Mosaic, take a free test drive of oci@oracle.com automate that's oracle oracle.com automate oracle.com automate.

Unknown (46:02)

Hiring with indeed your search is over. Indeed is your matching and hiring platform with over 350 million global monthly visitors so that you can ditch the busy work and use indeed for scheduling, screening and messaging. And indeed doesn't just help you hire faster. 93% of employers agree indeed delivers the highest quality matches compared to other job sites. Its matching engine is constantly learning from your preferences, so the more you use it, the better it gets. And over three and a half million businesses around the world use Indeed to hire great talent fast. Now when we hire inside of afford.

Paula Pant (46:33)

Anything, we do so because we're busy. But hiring itself is really slow and overwhelming.

Unknown (46:40)

So when you're busy, it's great to have an engine like Indeed that is both fast and high quality. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com Paula just go to Indeed.com Paula right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com Paula Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire you need Indeed.

Paula Pant (47:11)

When you say they spend zero time living because they're always worried about dying, in what actionable ways does that manifest?

Joe Salsih (47:18)

They truly spend a lot of time ruminating about the unknown of what if, what if, what if I could die tomorrow? I could die. What if I die tomorrow? Why would I go to this thing? I can't go to that thing. What if something bad happens and I die? What if I do this action and some bad person comes along and I could die? Yeah. It is truly a big time phobia.

Chris (47:45)

You got to switch the mindset to what if something incredible happens? What if something amazing happens? Right?

Joe Salsih (47:51)

Yeah.

Andrew (47:51)

Yeah. There's this age old saying of whether you believe you can or you can't. You're right. I know. I'm butchering it a little bit.

Chris (48:00)

Was that Henry Ford?

Andrew (48:01)

I don't know who it was, but it was somebody that I believe was.

Joe Salsih (48:05)

I think Andrew.

Chris (48:05)

Andrew said that. Yeah.

Andrew (48:06)

Yes, thanks.

Paula Pant (48:08)

I'm trying to look it up, but I still don't have wi fi.

Andrew (48:11)

Yeah. I think we all need confidence builders and we all need to.

Chris (48:14)

That's the thing.

Andrew (48:15)

I'm saying it. I'm just speaking to myself. But like we all need to see real life examples and have these conversations. You need to look somebody in the eyes and talk to them and listen to their story and do some sort of Big Brother mentorship approach. I just feel like that is. It's not done often enough. But when you do that, when somebody is your big Brother metaphorically, and holds your hand and can walk you through that and it's worth paying somebody for that. Like I used to be very frugal and all financial advisors are scam artists and everything, all coaches and classes are a waste of money. But you just don't know what you don't know.

Chris (48:54)

Yeah, I mean, professionals have coaches all the time. Look at athletes, right? They'll have seven different coaches for different things. Right?

Andrew (49:01)

Right. Kobe Bryant was excellent at basketball in many ways, but he also shot a thousand free throws every day and did one more practice than the average NBA player did every single day. And that all compounds wildly over decades. So I think frugality is great in many ways, but I think it's focused on almost too much. And, like, raising your income has way more impact potential. And to your daughter's point, what happens if I can never retire in age 60 to 100 is suboptimal? It's like, what happens if age 20 to 60 is suboptimal and you spend your time living a life you're not passionate about or. And you just feel like you wasted your time through arguably the best years of your life. So I think that's a worse, worst downside to avoid is like, well, and then let the end of your life figure itself out to some degree. Still be proactive, but, like, don't let the tail wag the dog.

Paula Pant (49:58)

Sure, absolutely. Oh, and Joe, thank you for looking it up. It was Henry Ford who said that. Yes, yes.

Joe Salsih (50:07)

Who also said, you can have any color car you want as long as it's black.

Chris (50:10)

That's right.

Paula Pant (50:11)

Did he also say that?

Joe Salsih (50:12)

He did say that.

Paula Pant (50:12)

Ah, nice.

Joe Salsih (50:13)

Yes. Because they were going to make that assembly line go, and at the time, the Model A, they were cranking them.

Paula Pant (50:18)

Out in that Model T. Ah, interesting. Okay. I did not know.

Joe Salsih (50:22)

You're welcome.

Paula Pant (50:23)

Wow. Well, thanks to both of you for joining us and for this amazing discussion. And to you, Joe.

Joe Salsih (50:30)

Oh, thanks.

Chris (50:32)

Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Andrew (50:33)

Yeah, thanks for having us. And all the work you've done over the years. You've helped a lot of people.

Paula Pant (50:37)

Ah, thank you.

Chris (50:38)

Absolutely.

Paula Pant (50:38)

Thank you, thank you. And thanks to everyone who is listening. This is the Afford Anything podcast. And we also want to Give thanks to llcattorney.com for sponsoring live podcasting at Fincon24, and to everyone listening for being part of this community. Thank you. If you enjoyed today's episode, please do three things. Number one, share it with your friends, family, neighbors, colleagues, enemies. Friends. Share it with people you like, people you don't like, people you're kind of passive aggressive with. Share it with everyone in your life, because that is the number one way Joe is losing it right now. Across the table from me, I'm just.

Joe Salsih (51:15)

Thinking enemies, no matter who they are, just put afford anything out in the car and then they get in oh, look at this. And Afford Anything show.

Paula Pant (51:25)

Who knew?

Andrew (51:26)

Share with the Gen Z folks for sure.

Paula Pant (51:28)

Yeah. So that's the number one thing you can do to convince Gen Z to stop getting their financial advice from TikTok. So that's number one. Number two, subscribe to the newsletter afford anything.com newsletter and number three, follow this podcast on your favorite podcast playing app, including Apple podcasts and Spotify, and find us on YouTube as well. We're. We're growing our YouTube footprint, and it's much better than TikTok. Wow.

Joe Salsih (51:59)

Shots fired, TikTok.

Paula Pant (52:00)

Yeah.

Andrew (52:01)

You'll learn more in 10 minutes than 20 seconds.

Paula Pant (52:03)

Yeah, exactly. Thanks to all of you. This is the Afford Anything podcast. My name is Paula Pant.

Joe Salsih (52:09)

I'm Joe Salsihi.

Chris (52:11)

And I'm Chris.

Andrew (52:12)

And I'm Andrew.

Paula Pant (52:14)

And we'll meet you in the next episode.

Joe Salsih (52:20)

We both love staying away from debt, so we're like, I'm just gonna stay with it a little bit longer until we realize too late. That we spent too long.

Andrew (52:29)

So my little plug meetup tomorrow is the One more year Syndrome meetup.

Joe Salsih (52:35)

Wow.

Andrew (52:35)

So, yeah, I seriously was pretty smart. Yeah.

Paula Pant (52:39)

But, well, by the time this airs, this episode is airing in, like, maybe a month from now. Oh.

Joe Salsih (52:45)

So it was a great meetup tomorrow. Tomorrow was a fantastic meetup time.