Hope Isn't a Feeling. It’s a Skill. - with Dr. Julia Garcia

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary
Afford Anything: “Hope Isn’t a Feeling. It’s a Skill. – with Dr. Julia Garcia”
Host: Paula Pant
Guest: Dr. Julia Garcia, Author of "The Five Habits of Hope"
Date: June 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Paula Pant is joined by Dr. Julia Garcia to explore the concept of hope—not as a fleeting feeling, but as a learnable cognitive skill directly tied to financial success, personal growth, and overcoming obstacles. Dr. Garcia outlines her framework, “The Five Habits of Hope,” and discusses the pivotal role hope plays in rewiring our brains, breaking free from destructive cycles, and making wise money choices. The conversation weaves together financial psychology, neuroscience, and actionable self-development tools, highlighting how building hope can unlock wealth, resilience, and personal fulfillment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Hope as a Cognitive Skill, Not a Feeling

• Definition of Hope ([02:24], [04:08]):
  • Dr. Garcia reframes hope as “a cognitive process, not just a feeling.”
  • Hope activates problem-solving and motivational areas of the brain, releasing a form of dopamine that fuels motivation.
• Quote:

  "Hope isn't a feeling, it's a cognitive process where it activates a part of our brain. It doesn't solve the problems, but it activates the part of our brain that helps us solve problems."
  — Dr. Garcia ([02:24])

• Hope as a prime predictor of success—above grit or resilience.
• Neuroplasticity: Hope interrupts and rewrites negative thought patterns and limiting beliefs ([05:24]).

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2. Hopelessness, Despair, and Apathy

• Despair and its Dangers ([09:38]–[15:19]):
  • Despair defined as "suffering without purpose" (Viktor Frankl).
  • People can spiral from a single negative “thought-brick” to overwhelming despair if feelings are ignored or detoured.
  • Not feeling your feelings (via distraction, denial, dismissal, defensiveness, and devaluing—“the 5 Ds”) is a major risk in today’s hyper-connected, hyper-distracted culture.
• Quote:

  "The biggest danger isn't actually despair. It's apathy. It's having, like, no feeling..."
  — Dr. Garcia ([15:15])

• The rise of isolation and loneliness tied to screen time and lack of deep, real-time interpersonal connections ([16:01]–[17:10]).

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3. Internal Oppression vs. Imposter Syndrome

• Internalized beliefs about deservingness based on background and context keep people stuck, beyond classic “imposter syndrome.”
• Dr. Garcia calls this “internal oppression”—a core block to economic freedom ([07:13]).

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4. Applying Hope: The Power of “Maybe Moments”

• Introducing the concept of the “maybe moment” ([25:53]–[30:24]):
  • Replace rigid, discouraging thoughts (“I can’t do this”) with “Maybe I can”
  • This interruption creates cognitive “wedge” for strategic thinking and action.
• Quote:

  "Instead of believing something is a fact—I can't do this, it's too much—maybe I can. And 'maybe' interrupts it enough to just create a little wedge in our mind..."
  — Dr. Garcia ([81:05])

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5. Hope and Financial Habits: Debt, Comparison, and Cognitive Overload

• Overwhelm from debt or financial goals often leads to hopelessness or apathy ([23:23]):
  • Acknowledgment and small, incremental actions are key.
• Community support and openly processing feelings can reactivate problem-solving abilities ([44:47]–[51:07]).
• The dangers of constant comparison, especially in the age of social media—real solutions may be invisible ([47:22]–[50:45]).

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6. The Five Habits of Hope: Practical Framework

Dr. Garcia details her five habits for building and sustaining hope ([58:00]–[78:26]):

1. Reflect

• Notice and name what you’re struggling with.
• Prompt: “I was struggling with...”
• Avoid “feeling detours” (distraction, denial, etc.).

2. Risk

• Take emotional and practical risks—courage is essential to break the cycle of complacency and comfort.
• Quote:

  "We need courage to take these leaps into having economic freedom, to having a healthy relationship with our finances... Complacency and comfort, they kill courage."
  — Dr. Garcia ([40:32])

3. Release

• Develop a practice for regularly letting go of internalized feelings (e.g., writing, exercise, singing, prayer).
• Releasing prevents “feelings from taking up residence rent-free in your mind" ([61:58]).

4. Receive

• Build the emotional habit of accepting help, love, and even sudden financial windfalls.
• Many high achievers self-sabotage because they lack this muscle or feel unworthy.
• Quote:

  "Receiving is a very challenging thing to do when it comes to anything tied to our worth. ...Those things can be blocked because we are not in an emotional habit of receiving them."
  — Dr. Garcia ([82:24])

5. Repurpose

• Transform pain, setbacks, or anger into fuel for helping others and building community.
• See “worth where others see waste”—use previous hardships to guide and serve those just starting out.
• Example: Dr. Garcia's mother repurposed discarded furniture into a warm, unique home and applied that principle to people and relationships ([69:33], [73:59]).

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7. Community, Connection, and Support

• The antidote to despair and hopelessness is community ([53:04]–[54:56]):
  • Hybrid support (online + in-person).
  • Start or join local meetups; don’t fear being the first.
  • “If connection and community is what we're after... do it your way. Maybe no one shows up, but that's not the point. It's about risking because of the value, no matter the outcome.” ([55:08])

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8. Memorable Quotes and Moments

• On building hope as a strategy:

  "Hope is the single greatest predictor of success. ...It motivates us. It helps us to separate from feeling like we can't do something, those limiting thoughts, to realize that there are options."
  — Dr. Garcia ([79:41])

• On processing negative comparisons:

  "We can still feel the slight. But... the thing is, I have a process to feel that feeling so that I can go back to how I actually am, which is I really care for my friend and I'm happy for them."
  — Dr. Garcia ([49:16])

• On contagious courage:

  "Allowing people to see you activate [courage] is contagious. Then they start to be courageous sometimes."
  — Dr. Garcia ([32:31])

• Paula’s personal reflection on being undermined by a friend due to envy—highlights both the harm and the importance of choosing your own path ([33:54]–[37:58]).
• Vulnerability & service as strengths:

  "A lot of repurposing is about service to others. And guess what that does. It builds community."
  — Dr. Garcia ([75:41])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------------------|----------------| | Defining the problem – why we get stuck | 00:00–04:08 | | Hope as cognitive process; neuroscience of hope | 04:08–05:24 | | Internal oppression vs. imposter syndrome | 07:13–09:38 | | Despair, hopelessness, and “thought-bricks” | 09:38–13:32 | | 5 Detours from feeling (distraction, denial, etc.) | 13:24–15:42 | | Social isolation and virtual connection pitfalls | 16:01–19:36 | | “Maybe moments” and rewiring thought patterns | 25:53–30:24 | | Embracing risk, courage, and entrepreneurship | 31:54–33:08 | | Community and support – why it matters | 53:04–55:51 | | The Five Habits of Hope detailed | 58:00–69:33 | | Repurposing setbacks into support and community | 73:59–76:10 | | Three key takeaways summarized by Paula Pant | 78:59–83:27 |

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Practical Tools & Exercises Highlighted

• “Maybe” Intervention: Replace “I can’t...” with “Maybe I can...” to create mental space for change.
• Daily Prompts:
  • “I’m staying silent because…”
  • “What am I struggling with?”
  • “What would support look like for me right now?”
• Release Rituals: Regular practices for emotional release (journaling, exercise, music).
• Start a Community: Even if it begins with just one or two people, take the risk to connect locally.
• Repurpose Your Struggle: Use past pain or knowledge to mentor or support others on the same path.

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Conclusion

This episode digs deep into the science and emotional mechanics of hope and its connection to financial health. Dr. Garcia’s framework of the Five Habits of Hope offers a compassionate, practical roadmap for anyone feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or uncertain about their financial (or personal) goals. The central message: hope is not something you passively wait for—it is something you can actively cultivate, amplify, and use to rebuild both your mindset and your bank account.

Highly Recommended Next Steps:

• Reflect on the five habits and choose one to focus on this week.
• Try the “maybe moment” when you encounter self-doubt.
• Seek or build a community—online or off—centered around shared financial goals.
• Explore Dr. Garcia’s book or reach out for her resources.

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Best Quote to Remember:

“Hope isn’t a feeling. It’s a skill—and that skill can be your greatest asset.”
— Dr. Julia Garcia (throughout the episode)

Transcript

[A]

Maybe you started strong on a goal, like you're paying off debt, you're saving, you're investing. You started strong but then inexplicably just self sabotaged or lost momentum. Or maybe you're comparing yourself to peers, former classmates, siblings, cousins who are further ahead than you and you're either feeling demoralized or maybe you're just resentful, you're feeling jealous, you're feeling, why not me? Or maybe you tried to start a side hustle or a small business and it just kind of stalled, petered out. Maybe you know that you're about to get a lump sum of cash, like a big commission or bonus or possibly a raise, and you're kind of nervous because you don't trust yourself to handle it. Today's episode addresses the psychological root of all these scenarios and more about why we sometimes feel stuck, even though we know what we quote, unquote, should be doing, why we sometimes get in our own way. And it traces back, according to psychologist Dr. Julia Garcia, who is our guest today, it traces to hope. This is a new framework. Oftentimes psychologists will come on the show and talk about grit or resilience, and those are important. But hope is something different. And so in this episode, we're going to define what it is and why it matters and what the science behind it says. Welcome to the Afford Anything podcast, the show that knows you can afford anything, not everything. This show covers five financial psychology, which is the topic of today's episode. Increasing income, investing, real estate, and entrepreneurship.

[B]

So the acronym is double I Fire.

[A]

I'm your host, Paula Pant. I trained in economic reporting at Columbia. And today's guest, Dr. Julia Garcia, is the author of the Five Habits of Hope. And she makes the case that hope is a skill and skills can be learned. And it's a skill that can make a huge impact on the level of

[B]

wealth that you build.

[A]

So to hear more, here is Dr. Julia Garcia.

[B]

Welcome, Dr. Julia.

[C]

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

[B]

You say that hope is not a feeling, it's a cognitive process. What does that mean? Can you elaborate?

[C]

Yeah. So hope, we would define it usually as like a feeling, but it is a cognitive process where it activates a part of our brain. It doesn't solve the problems, but it activates the part of our brain that helps us solve problems. So when I first started looking into hope, I was like, this is a fluffy concept. This is not like anything concrete or serious. And then when I realized that it was cognitive, that it actually, actually is tied to Our brain and how we choose to make decisions, how we're able to make those decisions. It changed everything for me because it made me realize that it's not just about a feeling, Even though that's how most people would explain it or define it. Like, if I were to ask you what hope is, you'd probably explain a feeling you have when you get it. Because there's really not a lot of pinpoints to understand what's happening in our body when we feel hope. But it actually is the single greatest predictor of success. And it was learning more and more about how hope is tied to things like our emotional regulation, to our ability to think strategically, and just how our brain is activating those parts of the brain where it's just triggering our ability to problem solve. That, to me, was fascinating because I realized that the other side, when people feel hopeless, and that was a lot of the work that I've been in, is when people get to that place, I call it the dark space, where they get to a place of feeling hopeless, and it impacts every single area of their lives, Every single area. That was why I wanted to figure out how hope could help.

[B]

I want to dig into this more before we do. What is hope? Is there a formal definition?

[C]

There's many definitions for hope, but in the simplest form, it's a cognitive science. Hope is what activates the part of your brain that. I don't want to get too scientific here.

[A]

No, no.

[C]

Do it. Yeah. So hope, it releases dopamine, but the kind of dopamine that helps with our motivation. So it motivates us. It helps us to be able to separate from feeling like we can't do something. Those limiting beliefs, those limiting thoughts, to realize that there are options, and that affects how we feel. And so when we attach how we feel with what's happening in our mind, it's like a double power. And that's why hope is so powerful, because it can help start to make us feel like we can do things, because it's activating the parts of our brain that help us be more strategic, help us problem solve. So hope is it's doing things in the mind. Even though we explain it and understand it as just a feeling.

[B]

You said it triggers the part of the brain that is responsible for motivation. Can you explain more of that? Like, what part of the brain is responsible for motivation? And how does that section of the brain motivate us?

[C]

Well, your brain is constantly releasing all of these. I'm going to actually break it down. Let's talk about Neuroplasticity first. Yeah, that's really what we're doing is we're interrupting the thought cycles and the loops that make us feel like we can't do something, we can't figure it out, that there are no solutions, that this is just how things are. And those are these thought patterns that start to circulate so much. They go on loop so much that we start to identify them with who we are. And it's almost like thought paralysis at some point because you really don't think you're capable of doing anything anymore because of those loops, those thoughts. And that's what I have the most up close. Like I witness, I hear, I study, is people in those thought cycles. And so the work of hope is to break up those thought cycles, to interrupt them just enough to where we can start to reroute our thoughts and we can start to rewrite those neural pathways in our mind. How hope works is really interrupting those negative thought patterns. It's really attached mostly to me and my work to neuroplasticity because it's that, that is what's affecting people on a day to day with their lack of decision making or decision making, the relationships they do or not have with whatever it is, whether it's finance people, their workplace, their home life, it's interrupting those thought patterns so that we can start to build and in our minds a route towards possibility.

[B]

What are some examples that you've seen of people who have negative thought patterns who get stuck in those loops as it relates to issues around money or career?

[C]

Okay, so this is going to be maybe controversial that I say this. I'm biracial, I'm from a mixed diverse family and come from a community that's very diverse in many ways economically, ethnic wise. And one of the things that we used to say for fun was like survival mentality, like scarcity mindset, you know, like, like oh, you're just, you're just in that survival mindset. That's why you can't save money, you know, like. But I, I want to bring this full circle in saying that a lot of the work and the experience I have with people, people say in, they say imposter syndrome. And I don't believe that that is like the blanket case for people feeling and making the decisions they do around money especially. I think a lot of it is internal oppression. I think you're in situations where there's systems in place, there's maybe a lack of exposure to what economic, health and wealth could be. I think at some point, we internalize these belief systems. We think because of who we are, because of where we come from, because of things we've been through, we start to believe that maybe we don't deserve something. Maybe it's not for us, it's for people like X, Y and Z. And so these internal thoughts, once we start to believe them, that's when we start to build internal oppression. So it's not I don't belong here, it's I literally. This is not part of my identity, part of who I am. We believe the thoughts that we are less than because of maybe whatever the background is. And it could have nothing to do with any one specific demographic. But it is these thoughts that go beyond imposter syndrome. And it's, to me, it's the internal oppression that really holds a lot of people back from economic freedom, from freedom in all areas of their life. Because that's where it starts to me, because with hope, it's about activating and it's about action. So it's activating the parts of your brain and it's about taking action. But for me, in my work, I've realized that the missing piece was a sense of worth. Having a sense of worth is important not just in having hope, but in sustaining it. And that's where I found the difference is we can build hope, but to sustain it, it has to be tied to a sense of worth, which for me, most people, not most people, but a lot of people I've worked with, struggle with internal oppression.

[B]

Before we go down the road of how to develop hope and some of the practices that people can use, I first want to talk through the opposite. Hopelessness. We see a lot of. And there's a closely related concept which is despair, which I think Viktor Frankl defined as suffering without purpose. Right now we hear a lot about deaths of despair, which I know during COVID that was increasing. I don't know. I don't know what the post Covid stats are, if that is continuing to increase or not, but despair seems like a pervasive and growing issue. Can you talk about what leads to hopelessness followed by despair?

[C]

Yeah, you nailed it there. Despair is. We get into what I call like a danger zone. And what I always tell people right up front is that what I believe genuinely through and through is not that we're never going to be hopeless. I want to make that really clear, that it's not about having hope all the time. It's about having a process back to it and knowing that that's possible because when we get into a place of despair, we can stay there for a really long time. And I worked in crisis intervention work during the pandemic. I built a crisis hotline that reached over 50 countries in 10 months. We had a training program for who had zero crisis intervention background. And the one thing that I realized in running this crisis line was we would engage in conversations with people via text messaging. And within like 15 minutes, they could get to a place of despair to having hope. And there were some key things that we, we would do to really help encourage that process. But the number one thing was that they were so grateful that a real person was talking to them. They would say all the time, are you a real person? Are you real? And I'm at 3am in my bedroom, like, yeah, I'm real. I'm not sleeping because I want to talk to you. So yes, I am real. That was always such a shock factor that someone wanted to listen. It makes me emotional to think about that somebody wanted to listen to a mom who was struggling with a newborn in Asia, to someone who was in a domestic violence situation in Europe, and just knowing that someone was there to listen. I like to say that no one is immune to feeling hopeless and getting to that place of like feeling like there's no way out. It doesn't discriminate. Despair doesn't discriminate. And it can happen to anyone at any time. High performing people, people who are in great situations, who are happy. Some of this is different, like clinical. But sometimes the process to it is, is really just starting to believe, maybe a small thought. And then that thought grows and grows. So I explained it actually yesterday. I did a keynote event yesterday and I had this physical representation of a brick. And so someone was holding a brick and I made the brick light. So there it was, not heavy like a traditional brick. And I said, this is a thought. This is a thought that you have, maybe that might be discouraging you right now. So think of what the thought is. Okay. And then they're holding this brick as a thought. So if we can imagine, maybe hold the book to do it as a representation. It's not too heavy, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Nope, you're doing it like that. You look really in shape. So you. This isn't too hard, right? No. Okay. So if you do this for a little bit, you're carrying something, but it's lightweight. It's not a big deal.

[B]

It's lightweight. It's.

[C]

Yeah, you can, you can mess around with it, you can probably walk around, you can do the Things. But after a while, even something small can start to weigh. Can start to feel heavy. And then I'm going to add my coffee because now we have another limiting belief.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Or thought.

[B]

Sorry, I got it.

[C]

So now it's still probably easy, but a little bit more challenging.

[B]

I can feel that it's heavier.

[C]

And so what we want to do is build a process to work through this thought. This thought is not good or bad. It's neutral. It's having a process to work through this thought. I'm going to drink the thought. And now you can see that over time, these thoughts that are not processed can start to build. And what I have seen and experienced in my own life is we don't always have a process to process what we feel. So we go on feeling detours. And we do all kinds of things, like distract ourselves, deny things, we get defensive, we devalue what they are. Not a big deal. And there's reasons for that. But these feeling detours create the habit of us not feeling our feelings.

[B]

I noticed all the detours begin with the letter D. So the detours.

[C]

I love wordplay.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

So the detours are distraction, denial, dismissal.

[C]

Yes. Dismissal. Defensiveness. And I'm sure there's one more in there. I believe there's five. It will come to me. It'll come to me.

[B]

All right. And those are the various detours that, if unprocessed, can lead to despair.

[C]

Yeah. Distraction, distraction, distraction. Which is huge for this day and age with social media technology, AI distraction is so accessible, we're overly exposed. And I don't want to go on a tyrant here if you don't want to, but the amount of information we're inundated with, our brains are not. We're trying to keep up, and our ability to process it is limited. But if we don't have a process in place at all now, we can become desensitized. The biggest danger isn't actually despair. It's apathy. It's having, like, no feeling.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And getting into that place, that's a very scary place.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Because you could do some things not just to yourself, but to other people when you don't feel at all right. For me, I just really want to help people, equip them with tools. Because of our current and growing. I call it the social experiment, the giant social experiment of being online all the time and being exposed to so many different ideas, different people. Now we don't know what's real or not real.

[B]

Right. And the stats are people spend on average seven Hours a day, looking at a screen.

[C]

I was working with junior high kids yesterday, and the average they told me was 10. Yeah, 10 hours a day. I'm like, y' all awake that long? 10 hours? That's crazy. But it's actually not, right.

[B]

Well, and it makes sense. Maybe not at the junior high level, but certainly for adults. You know, many of the people who are listening to this are remote workers. And so if you're a remote worker, then all day at work, you might sit alone, isolated, in an empty room, perhaps in an empty apartment or an empty home, looking at a screen. And that's your whole workday. So we've got kind of two things going on there. One is looking at a screen. The other is that isolation.

[C]

And the isolation, really, we saw propelled with the shutdowns. I was in one of the strictest counties in the country. I couldn't get a cup of coffee for like a year at my favorite spot. So the isolation physically was very real during that time. But what we're seeing is it started before the surge of loneliness, even though we're hyperconnected, started before COVID Covid just, like, blew the roof off of it. In the studies, you'll see it's in parallel with the rise of social media and the use of social media.

[B]

Why is that? Is that because social media gives us a false sense of connectivity and so we don't seek out the real thing?

[C]

I think it's twofold. People aren't using social media for depth and connection the way that they innately would desire it. Most people. And. And it's still happening. Most people consume, so they go into a social space, but they're consuming, they're not contributing. And relationship takes risk. It's twofold, right? So even if, say I left a comment that's not in real time, so I'm not getting a reaction in real time. We're not actually working through something, building relationship skills in real time. You can go back, go to a dictionary, check something, come back, and like, you know, have a conversation. But the interpersonal skills that we develop in real time are just more and more scarce. So we're seeing people's attention span just. It was, what a goldfish. Now I don't even know what it is now, but it is just shortening so much. And the ability to have those conflict resolution skills, which is the richness of a relationship. If you've never fought with someone you love, you do not love that person, okay? Because you gotta love through the hard. You gotta have tough moments to build Meaning and depth. And so when we're only engaging in a way where we're consuming, it really limits our ability to develop deep connections. So I think it's not that social media can't contain some deep connections. I think it's the way most people are using it is for consumption or for some skill development to learn something. And that usually is for the eye, for the person, the individual, because they want to develop. And so it's not really for building a relationship, if that makes sense. The tools we're developing are usually personal, not always relational. If it's not promoting a person being with other people, if that makes sense.

[B]

So you mean if a person uses social media to develop a skill like coding or learning the guitar, it's great that they're learning a skill, but learning the guitar doesn't, doesn't help you make friends unless you join a band.

[C]

Yes. Or saying like, let's learn in a group setting. Let's do like a mastermind class where you're with other people and we're learning together. So I think that those things are happening, but not to the extent that the isolated learning and self development are happening.

[B]

Right, right. And there is also an acceleration of that as not only does work become remote, but also, you know, more learning becomes remote as well.

[C]

It can be almost completely isolated now with the way AI, the newest technology of things being developed. I mean, it is incredible what it can build. But what I am already sensing and terrified of and hopeful that we can move vyond in a positive way is that we don't look to tools like AI as people are seeking it as a companion. And that we're not switching relationship with people with the technology that mimics humanness but can never actually fully challenge us. Can't actually, you know, this real time conversation can't happen online with an AI, even though it's getting really close.

[B]

Right. You and I were actually talking about why we do these interviews in person, which I love. I recently began insisting that all interviews be done face to face for exactly that reason. The richness of conversation is so different than when you're speaking with somebody remotely. But we are seeing, you know, we just saw. I forget which country. I think Japan or Korea. The first human to AI marriage. There was a woman in. I forget which country, but she actually had a wedding.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You heard about this?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

She actually had a wedding.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And she married an AI chatbot.

[E]

Mm.

[B]

So that may be the canary in the coal mine. Like, you know, we, we seem to be heading towards a Future in which chatbots do substitute for certain human relationships.

[C]

I won't go too deep into that without saying, makes me sad. It breaks my heart, and it breaks my heart because I know how much people crave connection and to be seen and to feel heard and to feel known and to accept anything less than their worth, to accept something, one, that's not real, but two, that is not worthy of them. That. That breaks my heart because I want people to have freedom to experience the fullness of their humanness. I want people to be able to feel angry, to be sad, to be happy and joyful. But it's this constant avoidance of things that maybe just feel too much, too painful, too hard. And I say a lot to people, have you been through hard things? And usually they always say, yes. I'm like, you can do hard things. I truly believe you can do hard things. And I see the unlock in real time, when people process a feeling in real time. And, you know, just to come back a little bit to how this impacts finances, because this is foundational for people who avoid financial decisions, for people who avoid building those habits, the external habits, it really starts in the emotional habits first. And hope is foundational in people building these habits where it's locked in their mind and in their heart so that they can do the things externally, right, Talk to that person instead of going to a chatbot. Once it's emotional, once the patterns start to happen emotionally, then we can start to do them externally. Like, when it comes to finances, I feel like if someone is festering, the thought of what's the point? It's not going to get better. That's foundational in whether they choose to make a step forward or not.

[B]

And you hear that from time to time. People who are so deep in debt, for example, that when a person has that much debt, they have a feeling of hopelessness, and then they get into even more debt because their thinking is, well, I'm already in so much. What's an extra $50? And for that same reason, it becomes a real challenge to pull out of debt, because necessarily that does have to happen in $50 increments at a time, $10 increments at a time.

[C]

They're the small habits that make the most monumental difference. I would like to acknowledge, if you're in that position, it can be cognitive overload. So it's not all on you. There's something happening. There's a lot going on, and it's very difficult for people to navigate cognitive overload. It's like if we did the book and the coffee and we just kept adding and adding and adding. And that was the debt, right? It's just adding to sift through it. I have a loved one who is a hoarder. The amount of excess is discouraging because it's like, where do you start? Because everywhere you look there's just piles of things, important things and not important things, right? But these things are whether they hold value or not to that person, it's still overwhelming, right? So that's an external overwhelm. The thoughts in our mind can be the cognitive overload. And so when you have both, there's a very real debt and then there's the thought of all the real debt. That's just like a compound. But it's what you said that's the first step. It's these small, small habits that you build. It's what you think might be insignificant, but over time it's those little subtle interruptions in our thought process that slowly start to rewrite our neural pathways. So it's the little habits, it's the small interruptions. And I say the biggest and the best way to have those little moments internally so that we can make better decisions externally or more healthy ones for us is maybe I call them maybe moments. And so instead of believing something is a fact, I can't do this. It's too much. Maybe I can and maybe interrupts it enough to just create a little wedge in our mind where now maybe if I say it enough, I start to rewrite some of those thoughts, take some of the pressure off.

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[B]

We've been describing the problem. We'll shift to some of the solution here. One of them is interrupting that thought with maybe I'm in a ton of debt. I Can't get out of this debt. Maybe I can. Or maybe I can pay off a thousand dollars worth of this debt in the next 90 days. Flipping to the other side, people who want to retire early or fully pay for their kids college tuition or buy a second home or have they have some like aspirational goal. That seems different because it's sort of starting from a place of hope. But I do also hear people with those big goals getting discouraged along the way with the maybe work there too.

[C]

Oh, 100%. Because maybe is about creating momentum. So if we are starting from a place of like, we're on the up and up, that doesn't mean we're not going to hit obstacles. We actually are. The more you, your path becomes like more linear, the more obstacles I feel like are going to be unique. That feel like, who else can I talk to about this? Because maybe not as many people are on the same trajectory you are. Especially if you're going in a direction that is maybe just doing some of the things that you said, getting a second house, getting more things, gaining more assets in that way. Because maybe a lot of people, you know, don't have that same trajectory. The obstacles might not even just be something like a roadblock towards making that happen financially. It could just be like, why am I doing this? And that could derail us. What's the point? Losing focus, losing vision, losing the connection to the purpose. Right. I don't really promote self help. I like to talk about self discovery and self alignment. And really we build our life by aligning to the things we value. So it's less about things being right or wrong or good or bad, and more about do they align with our values and our belief systems. And we could very easily and subtly kind of lose that. Especially when a lot of people around us might not be doing it or encouraging us to do it or see the point. Because entrepreneurs or anyone who's kind of rewriting their story in a unique way, to them it is a process to constantly believe in it.

[B]

Right. Well, and the challenge of constantly believing in it is that oftentimes you're surrounded by people who are actively discouraging you. So entrepreneurship is a prime example. Many people when they say that they want to start a business, will be surrounded by well meaning friends and family who are concerned.

[C]

And I laugh just because the amount of ideas I've told people and they're like, what?

[B]

Exactly, exactly. And so from a place of concern they say, you know, why don't you keep your W2 job? Why don't you not take that risk? Why don't you not be the tall poppy?

[A]

Right?

[C]

So it's funny you said that, because we're a little bit talking more about solutions. And risk is, I think, the primary thing that I would love to encourage this generation specifically because this generation has way too many options for comfort and convenience. And I think that emotional risk is just getting. It's gaining atrophy. And the fear is real. There's fear. We all have fear. And that's a great sign that someone cares. But we also have courage. And allowing people to see you activate that is contagious. Then they start to be courageous sometimes.

[B]

At least speaking from my own experience in my healthier relationships, people who discouraged me from starting a business, you know, now that there's proof of concept, they say, wow, that's great that you did that. I'm so proud. And maybe that reflects in their life and maybe it doesn't. But at a minimum, they at least are happy for what has unfolded. On the flip side, the people who thought it was a harebrained idea and then saw it work out. I'm thinking of a couple relationships where it imploded. The relationship where they were almost angry that it worked out.

[C]

Did they express that in a way that they let you know that, or you just knew, or both?

[B]

Well, I'm thinking of one person in particular, one friend in particular, who began to really poke at my sense of self worth. And because I trusted her so much, I internalized very negative things that she told me about myself. And I really believed her. And that very much brought me down. And it took years, actually, for me to figure out that the things that she was telling me about myself were not true. And that all started when, you know, she and I, when we were 19, 20, we were starting from the same place. And when our life paths diverged, that was when she began telling me very negative things about myself. And so it, in hindsight, it started, I believe, when she became jealous or angry or upset or I guess envious would be the right word, envious or angry or upset about the way in which our paths diverged. But she didn't express that in a constructive way. She expressed it by telling me that I was a bad person in a way that. And I believed her because I trusted her.

[C]

The trust was so potent that even if she said something not real and not good, you were gonna believe it.

[B]

Right.

[C]

First of all, I'm sorry that that happened to you. I have to wonder if, you know, we know that a lot of People can project things right. When they're struggling, they project them onto other people. And I'm not sure if you have navigated that ever since or if you guys have mended or not. But I think what is powerful is that you're able to identify the difference now. And you said it took you a little bit.

[B]

It took me years.

[C]

What was something that helped that start to process in the direction of like healing?

[B]

Like, what was something that helped me recognize what was happening? Yeah.

[C]

Or to start to decide I'm gonna navigate through this.

[B]

Right. Because I blindly trusted her. The thing that help me see what was going on was recognizing times that she lied to me and also lied about me to others. And when the lies were subjective, then it's hard to call something subjective a lie. It's subjective, it's opinion. But when the lies were fact based, then it became very clear to see. Right. Because it was like, well, that's just factually untrue. And so that was what helped me kind of break out of blindly trusting her and then start to see what

[C]

was going on and then the feeling of mistrust. Do you still. Or is trust something that is something like a. That you're still working through having with newer relationships or do you feel like,

[B]

oh, no, no, I, I have the opposite problem. I just blindly trust me.

[E]

Cool.

[C]

You know, I would say blindly with your friend might not. Maybe it wasn't blind because you had a relationship for a long time, so maybe it was an earned trust in some ways and then became more of abused trust.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But it maybe started out in a place that was real and healthy for both of you at some point. So now you're like, I just still, I still trust everybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's beautiful because you see the hope in everyone. You, you still have hope. And I think that that is a superpower of yours to be completely crushed by a very important relationship in your life and to still say, but I'm still gonna have some hope.

[B]

Oh, thank you. Anyway, that. I guess this whole, that whole conversation started because you had mentioned that if people are courageous, that courage can be contagious. I guess we started down that road because I shared a personal example of a time that that did not happen. But could you share some examples of times that that does happen?

[C]

Yeah, I see it happen. I'm going to give an example of a keynote event I did where I invite people on stage. So I'm very interactive. I don't like to lecture, I don't do traditional keynotes. I'm Very interactive. I believe in real time. Live experiences help bring us together quicker than anything I could tell you. We're bringing some people on stage. I remember after the event, I'm going to fast forward. So after the event, this young woman comes up to me and she's in tears, like very emotional, but it's like happy tears, you know, you can tell the difference.

[E]

Right.

[C]

And so she's like smiling through her tears, she's emotional. I'm like, tell me about what you're feeling. She said she had a panic attack in the middle of the event and had to leave. She left the event because she was around a lot of people and that was not something that she. She was just struggling with her anxiety in. In environments where there were a lot of people. So she had been struggling for a little bit with this. And so she goes to the bathroom, she has a full on panic attack. And then I'm staring at her as she's like joyfully crying and I'm like, I remember you, you volunteered at the end and you came on stage. So the woman who had a panic attack in the middle of the event, who brought herself back, volunteered in front of thousands of people and was chosen. You know, I don't know how that happened. It just happened and came on stage. And the freedom she unlocked, the courage she unlocked it was because she had seen other people doing it beforehand. So it was this contagious courage. And it doesn't always have to be in that capacity. Like, I'm going to talk, I'm going to share something out loud. I'm going to. It could be picking up a paintbrush again when you haven't for a while and investing in that side of yourself. It could be picking up the phone. Well, we always have the phone in our hand, but it could be dialing somebody who comes to mind that maybe you miss. Those things are courageous because complacency and comfort, they kill courage. They kill them. You know, to tie it all into like finances and everything, we need courage to take these leaps into having economic freedom, to having a healthy relationship with our finances. We need to take courage in that because it's very discouraging. When you see the housing market right now, the thing, the gas prices going up, the schooling costs, just all of the things. It can be very discouraging. But courage is in that word too. So I think we need courage just as much as hope.

[B]

One of the habits to build hope is that embrace of risk.

[C]

Yeah. I think bringing it back to some of the things you shared about Your former friend. The risk is huge because we can be rejected, we could be hurt. So risk is real. There's very real reason for risk. But I believe that when you choose to be brave, no matter the outcome, you'll like who you're becoming, you'll appreciate that side of yourself. The outcomes will not always go in our favor. They won't. But I believe that when we choose who we're gonna be, we can't control how other people are. But when we choose who we're gonna be and we align those choices with what we value, like we're gonna be a thoughtful friend, even if someone, it doesn't appreciate it, we're choosing that.

[F]

Right.

[C]

That's a value, That's a, that's something, that's a principle that we're going to always make choices aligning to that. Then even if someone ends up not appreciating that about us and we no longer have a friendship in that time, that we can walk away knowing we still like who we're becoming.

[B]

Right. So it's staying inside of that locus of control, you know, the integrity and what you do, regardless of how others react.

[C]

I have to tell my, my 10 year old all the time because they got a little drama in a little junior high and I'm. We always have to talk about. It's a very. It could seem basic or simple, but if we don't acknowledge that on a consistent basis, it's very easy to be influenced by how other people are acting or to allow ourselves to get discouraged or become apathetic because someone's just the way that they are. So we're going to be that way too over time. That's especially real in like a marriage. If one person's maybe not caring, then it could be like, well, why am I going to care?

[B]

Right. Right. And you mentioned earlier that apathy is the greatest danger and we stop trying. Right. I want to stay on apathy for a moment. What should a person do if they realize that they've become apathetic again? I'm thinking about finances. There are some people. You brought up the housing market earlier. There are some people who are so discouraged, they'll say, I look at the price of housing, I look at my income, there's a big disconnect. I don't think I'm ever going to buy a home, so why not spend it all on lattes and avocado toast? Why not have those small indulgences? Because I'm never going to get to the. These bigger goals. I don't know if I'm. I'm describing.

[C]

No apathy.

[B]

Yeah, necessarily. I guess I'm more describing discouragement. But there's.

[C]

They could be shutting down a part of their, their thought process because they don't want to address something that may seem that it can't be worked through. Right. So they're slowly shutting down to the point where they're just like, eh, whatever.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Is that kind of what you're saying? He had that like, whatever, it's no big deal.

[B]

Exactly, exactly.

[C]

I paired each of the habits with a feeling framework because for me, everything external is tied back to an internal. So if we can keep working through the internal, then maybe we can make those decisions we'd be more proud of ultimately. And I would say the one that comes to mind for that specific case is to write down or to finish this sentence, I'm staying silent because.

[B]

All right, let's assume we'll say I'm 24 years old, I make $55,000, I

[A]

live in New York City.

[B]

Even buying a cheap place, a quote unquote cheap place, is maybe something like a studio in outer Queensland is like $500,000. And so I just don't see how that is possible. So to the exercise then. I'm staying silent because am I staying, first of all, am I staying silent or am I loudly complaining to all of my friends like, you know, prices are too damn high.

[C]

Right.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's different than staying silent about the specific struggle. So if we outlined what you just said, right? If that person wrote down or said in their mind, I don't think that it's possible because I'm 24, the housing market's this, all those things. Well, the first thing we're doing might not seem like a big deal, but we're doing the thing that most people don't do. We're acknowledging something, a feeling. Okay. As opposed to just like making it like it's not a big deal and it's just festering and growing and it's going to start to impact it. Because humor sometimes is a way to deflect or, you know, when we make jokes about things, it actually could be coming in a place of like deep pain. Right, Right. So it could seem very simple that, hey, we're gonna actually like diary about this for a minute. What am I really feeling is the struggle? And I believe that one is not only therapeutic, but two, it starts to put words to things. Whereas sometimes it like maybe they weren't even getting that specific. Right. With my age might Come into this, this is gonna be, then we can start to even think about, okay, well when we put it down in that way we can start to think about maybe our brain starts to activate towards like what are other 24 year olds going through? And maybe we start to feel less alone because we realize there are a lot of people who might be and it could start to alleviate the parts that are shutting down our brain so that the hopelessness, that's like shutting down the parts of our brain that can start problem solving. Right. We're allowing ourselves space so that we can identify language, face something that's hard, build that process and then do I have the solution for that 24 year old? No, I do not. But I believe when you start to build those processes, you will activate the parts of your brain that help you to problem solve.

[B]

Well, let's say because you mentioned, you know, a lot of 24 year olds are in the same boat, let's take the same scenario, but let's imagine now this person is 34. Imagine now I'm 34 years old, I make 55,000 a year, I live in New York City, right? So you imagine that 34 year old is looking around at all of their friends and they're seeing friends who make double or even triple what they do. They're seeing friends who are buying even modest one bedroom apartments. Even something like that feels out of reach. Buying assets, buying a car. They see friends who are succeeding and then, and they feel like, wait a second, why am I the only one that's been left behind?

[C]

This is a great scenario because this actually is in parallel to what happens online. We see all of these things happening, we see people. I cannot for the life of me understand how a mom looks so put together before 8am I just like, how are you creating content before 8am? I know you gotta wake up at 4 to do that, but I can't be doing that, that okay, I can't, I'm sorry.

[B]

I've heard a lot of those videos are not actually shot at 8am they just turn the clocks to say, okay,

[C]

maybe that makes me feel better because it makes me feel lazy when I'm like, I did not wake up at six to go for a two mile run before nursing and all the things with my kids and then work. But I would say the parallel is we're seeing things and I would question and I'm curious what your thoughts are on what is the realness behind is maybe those friends, are they acquiring more debt? We don't see, are they getting help from family? We don't see. Did they have some sort of fund before that? Are there other things contributing? First of all, unique situations. And then I would always say, even if we knew all the information.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Even if we're like, that person didn't do it on their own. Right. We can still feel slighted a little bit. We can still. Even if we got all the facts, we can still feel some kind of way. Right. Because why them, not me? And I think what helps us come back is that alignment again. And really having identified, I call them, like, preset. They're preset principles of, like, what do we value? Do we value the same things that they do? Is money the value in that way? Money for whatever they're using it for is the values attached to how I want to live my life. Because I believe how you live your life is really a design. And if you're uniquely designing your own life, like the way you would redesign this room if it was blank walls is going to be very different than me.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And feeling empowered by that and not disempowered. And that's how we can be able to cheer on someone without them taking from us. We can still feel the slight. But the thing is, is I have a process to feel that feeling so that I can go back to how I actually am, which is I really care for my friend and I'm happy for them. But I got to work through my issue first to get to that place. And that's okay to feel like maybe other people have different advantages, maybe, or have different resources that they're dealing with, but that could get them to where they are faster. But where you're going is so unique, right. That you're going to want to stay on your path. It just might not be on the same timeline. And I think we have to think about our choices and be real realistic. My husband sometimes says a lot of women who date in the city, we have a lot of friends who have been in the city who sometimes struggle to find men in the city. And he's like, they're all out in the urban places. They're all out in the suburbs, the ones who want to settle down. I'm not saying that's true or not, but it's just an example of where we decide to live does have outcomes. Right? The job we take does have outcomes. But just because that situation is how it is, that does not mean that there aren't a ton of other options to be creative in how you get your goals. It just is not going to look like other people. And that's a good thing.

[B]

So the exercise that you described, I'm staying silent about this because based on what you've just said, I'm reinterpreting that sentence of yeah, you might be cracking jokes about it, you know, or loudly complaining about it, but like you're staying silent to yourself around real legitimate reframes and solutions.

[C]

Yeah. Like the pain points. Yeah. Another follow up question is what would support, look like or feel like? And going back to the. I stayed silent. A lot of people feel shame about the real issues of what maybe they're struggling with financially or relationally, any educationally can go on. There's a lot of shame. And not wanting to worry people is another reason people stay silent. They don't want to be a burden, they don't want to worry anyone. One of the other really big ones is they don't think people care. But it's addressing those things, identifying, putting language to them, it starts to take the power away from them. It starts to allow us the space to navigate them. Now, whereas opposed to this closed box way over there, that, that guilt or that shame of addressing this or being in this situation, now I'm starting to open the box and the follow up to that would be what would support, look like or feel like for me so that you can build those pillars to help support you as you navigate through it. And it could be different at a different time in your life. It could different seasons. The support will look and feel different for you that you need. But identifying it and why I say that's so important is because most people will tackle that mountain of debt on their own. Most people will tackle the cognitive overload on their own. Most people will do the isolated route because they don't want to be a burden. They don't want to worry anyone. So if we can identify, especially if you're a high achiever, very independent mindset, I got this, I'm gonna do this. I don't need any help. And maybe if I did, I'm still gonna figure it out. If you have that high performance mentality, you're less likely to say, yo, I need help. That's why it's so powerful. You're constantly asking yourself if you have any struggle on a daily basis. You can literally ask yourself anytime you struggle, if you think it's small, if you think it's a large thing, what would support or look like or feel like.

[B]

For me right now, right, I'm thinking about this community. A lot of people Would say just having a community of like minded people who are all doing the same thing, whether that thing is paying off debt or that thing is trying to retire early. Having that community of like minded people with shared goals. Of course, going back to what we were talking about earlier, that community generally comes from looking at a screen because you might not have that in your small town or even in your mid sized town. So often those do end up being online communities.

[C]

I think that's a really powerful way to build your support system. I don't think it has to be one or the other. I think the more hybrid we can do, the better. So I think it's maybe lifting a rock that you don't know what's under because maybe there are things in your community or I would say even better, maybe there's things that you should start in your community because there are other people in your community. I have traveled to hundreds and hundreds of the cities in this country. I have seen food deserts. I have been in places where I lose phone service, like within a mile of where I'm going, where there is no hotel nearby, some places where there's just a motel somewhere, it's just like an inn. I have been to many, many cities in this country and I will tell you that when I work with communities in these communities, the struggles can be more common than you think. And the tools and solution and sense of community and finding those could be a lot more prevalent than we might think. So I believe that the tools we get online, if we could just keep also growing the in person communities wherever we are. I think that that's just a dualness that's like so powerful, that's such a force.

[B]

Nice. I'll throw out here then. The takeaway for people listening is start a personal finance meetup or a financial independence meetup in wherever it is you live. Even if that meetup is one or

[C]

two people, it's really about if connection and community is what we're after, then once we learn how someone is, the things we like about how people build it, the ones that we're benefiting from, the ones online, then we have some tools to where we can do it and we can do it in your way. And it doesn't have to become something, but it can. It could just be. I'm doing this because I learned some things that help me and I know I can't be the only one in this community. And maybe no one shows the first time, but that's not the point. It's about risking because of the value no matter the outcome. But I truly believe there will be an outcome that you're proud of.

[B]

Yeah,

[E]

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[B]

So we've talked through the habit of emergency bracing Risk. Let's talk through the other four habits.

[C]

I think we kind of identified the first one, which is like, reflection, which is, like the entry point of, like, identifying things, being able to face things, not going on. The feeling detours. The feeling framework for that is like, what am I struggling with? And just kind of filling out that. That sentence, filling out that prompt I was struggling with and being able to put language to it. So we kind of went through the reflection and the risk. Unless there was something you wanted to.

[B]

Oh, yeah, perfect. Habit one is to reflect. Habit two is risk. Embracing risk. Let's go to habit three.

[C]

The habit of releasing is habit number three. So the habit of releasing is unique to the individual. Before my first child, I was a runner. I was an athlete in college. And physical sports were a huge release for me for things like, I had a lot of anger growing up, and physical sports really helped me work through some of that anger in a positive way.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Before, I used to think anger was just bad. Now I'm like, I'm angry. When I see injustice, I'm angry. When people are sad, I'm angry. So it's a good anger because I know how to channel it now, which is a different habit. So the habit of release is finding a process that allows you to take anything internalized and be able to work through it, be able to let go. So we can't. We can't receive anything until we first let go. Right. If we have a problem, if we don't let it go to some extent, in some way, through some methodology. So it could be writing. Julia Cameron wrote this book. Have you heard of Julia Cameron?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I was given that book in college, and it changed my life because I got physically injured. I completely tore my ACL while playing a sport in college. And that was my whole life. So I'm like, no, what am I gonna do? I don't know how I came across the book the Artist's Way by Julia Cameron, but somehow I would be in class and I would have the book in the book that I was reading. So it looked like I was reading whatever book the class was, but I was actually reading the Artist Way.

[B]

Classic.

[C]

Yes. Shout out to Julia Cameron, thank you for helping change my life. But it had the morning pages, and that's where for, like, every morning, you just write a few pages. You don't reread it. You don't look through it. You don't try and edit it. But that started to develop for me the first time. The process of writing and helping me release Things that I wasn't saying out loud. I hated talk therapy. I hated talking about feelings. I thought people would think I was weak if they knew some of the things I was struggling with. So writing was the first release I had where I could be real. Because I say there's no hope without honesty. If you're not actually getting real about things, if you're not getting real with how you feel about your finances or any other area you're struggling in, we can't deal with it. So that's why reflection is one. And then that risk of like, I think I'm worthy to kind of find a way to work through this, to navigate this, to take a step of faith and then to have that release. Okay, so what is the way when things, when I start to feel things, that I'm going to release those feelings? So people pray, they meditate, they write, they. They stretch. I mean, there's so many things, but it's getting the internal out in an external way, if possible, and finding ways to release some of those thoughts that are circulating that might be harmful or unhealthy or if unnoticed or unchecked for too long, can start to develop into a trajectory we don't want to go. What's a release? Practice you might enjoy.

[B]

Going to the gym definitely helps. Especially if I've got a lot of like pent up nervousness or anxiety. Going to the gym helps a lot. Blasting music and then singing at the top of my lungs. Singing off key at the top of my lungs. That's a really good one.

[C]

Do you like to go to concerts?

[B]

No, no, I'm, I'm short. I'm five foot one. I don't like big crowds.

[C]

Oh, man. Yes. Blasting music is a great way because then you can scream or yell or sing and you're releasing.

[B]

Right, right.

[C]

And it doesn't mean something's good or bad. It's just we're doing something with a feeling. We are taking back the ownership and saying, like, you have rent in my home, like in my mind, but you don't live here, you don't own me. I'm going to, I'm going to sing you out, I'm going to write you out, I'm going to run you out, I'm going to lift you out, whatever. But if we don't have a regular process of release, I don't know if anyone's listening, has read the body keep score. But things will be internalized in our body and at some point they have nowhere to go. They have to be Released. And if. The sooner we can develop a practice, it can be five minutes, it could be 15 minutes. It does not have to be an hour to go find me time. That's not what I'm talking about.

[B]

Right.

[C]

It's just the ability to lock in and release quickly and consistently, whatever that is. And so that is the habit of release, letting go so that we can do habit number four, which is to receive, which is a very difficult thing. Even people. Have you heard the stories? You might know more about this. The people who win the lottery and then lose it.

[B]

Yes. And then very shortly, they're back to square one. They're back to where they were when they started.

[C]

Yeah, we. My husband was just telling me about some people who inherited money from their parent, and then instead of getting a little bit of the money over time, they just took a big chunk and then lost it because the practices in place beforehand weren't there.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Receiving is a very challenging thing to do when it comes to anything tied to our worth.

[E]

Right.

[C]

We feel shame. Maybe we don't deserve something. Maybe we're less than or because of what we know that only we know. And the ability to receive, maybe forgiveness, love, kindness, wealth, prosperity, those things can be blocked because we are not in an emotional habit of receiving them. So we don't know what to do. We get them.

[B]

Right. You see this a lot with sudden influxes of money. And in the two examples that you gave, those were both unearned. Lottery winnings and inheritance are both unearned, but we actually see this a lot even with earned money, if it comes as a sudden influx. So one example would be athletes who sign a major contract and suddenly they get, you know, they go from having spent their whole life being fairly middle class and suddenly they get a lot of money all at once. You'll see that with some entertainers as well, with entrepreneurs also who are scrappy and they're bootstrapping their business and it's very lean for a long time, and then suddenly it hits. Actually, you see the same thing. Not always, but often you see that same thing where when it hits and it goes big, they don't know what to do. And pretty soon that money is gone and their business is actually doing a little bit worse.

[C]

I would say it's actually very similar to how people are when they go viral or when people attain a certain amount of success online, when it goes from, like, nothing to something. Especially after Covid, because a lot of people took off in Covid and then there was a lot of public Meltdowns because the expectations now increase, the visibility, the criticism. All the things also increase with the. The visibility and the success. Right. So there's multiple things happening when we gain whatever it is that we're looking to gain. Wealth, success, whatever it is, visibility, there's other things that are also at play. That's why I always go back to sustainability. Because you can get where you're going, but are you going to stay there? Yeah, we can all get something, but can we keep it?

[B]

Right.

[C]

And it's those practices that we developed beforehand that I believe are attached to the values. So if I see value in the little, if I see value and can receive what could appear as small and I handle it well. And I start to do that more and more when the influx comes. I already have the practice because I practice it even with so called a little. So the muscle, we'll call it in workout, gym setting. The muscle is there, I can handle more things. And I also know how to build the tools to have other people help me because I've already been doing it. Even with what I think is a little.

[B]

For a person who's listening, I can understand how they might work on receiving a little bit over time. Build that muscle a little bit every day.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

But for a person who's listening, who might one day get that sudden influx, maybe they're going to get an inheritance, for example. How should they prepare themselves when they know that they're likely to be in a situation where they haven't had time to build that muscle yet?

[C]

I would say you do, you do have the time now. I think there are a lot of areas that there are root connections. So we might think finances is completely separate from our relationship with someone. But a lot of how we deal with the feelings that navigate our decisions in either our root problems, root causes of root sources, the direct answer would be our sense of self worth. Our inherent value doesn't change, no matter the visibility or our bank size. And it's really finding ways to get realigned with that that this doesn't change anything. I'm still going to be hard working, I'm still going to be creative, I'm still going to be passionate. I'm still going to be a good friend. I'm still going to design this room the way only I could design it. I'm still going to be scrappy about it. Right. Because who I am doesn't change. But my resources now got unlocked to a point where I can rally in more support to help me navigate this. But I Already have been doing that. With where I'm at right now, it's really about how we see ourselves no matter what external is happening around us. And kind of what we said earlier, who we choose to be, regardless of X, Y and Z, we can look at that inheritage as this big thing, but we can also and say this is a big thing. That's true. But what's also true is I'm still me, I'm still hardworking, I'm still passionate, and I'm still gonna be very creative with this. I'm still gonna rally in support for this. I'm still gonna identify what I need, what support would look like with this. But I think we can very much. I say with growth mindset, where we kind of got into a place of like, maybe it was teetering on, like not as helpful when it became so performative about outcomes that I'm connecting with people on the ground, I would say, who are feeling paralyzed by perfection, needing to be productive and perfect and don't have any moments to breathe because they're just always doing, doing, doing, doing. Because the trajectory of growth mindset was like grow, grow, grow. Instead of it's okay to be too right. And it's again, it's like both can exist. And choosing who I'm going to be, knowing that maybe both can exist.

[B]

All right, so habit one is reflect. Habit two is risk. Habit three is release. Habit four is receive. What's habit five?

[C]

Habit five is one that makes me think of my mom. I'm one of six kids. My mom did not have it easy. She would go to estate sales at 6am and look through the newspaper and our entire home basically was refurbished furniture. She would reclaim it and she saw beauty in things people threw away. She could make something someone disregarded that had no worth and give it a home, make it a part of our home. And we didn't notice the difference. Her ability to do that wasn't just in things. It's with people. We always had people who came and lived with us, people who she said were our friends that became her kids. She always sees just the value in things and in people, even if society doesn't. And so this really helped inspire the fifth and final habit, which is repurposing. And it's seeing worth where others see waste. It's being able to say, anger isn't bad. I'm going to channel it and it's going to help me create a crisis helpline. It's going to help me create an equity line. During the civil Unrest that was going on, which I did. It's going to help me create a social media app for young girls. Where in the beginning of social media, I did. But that repurposing alone wasn't always good successful, because I actually want to tie it back to a struggle I had with my finances because I was very entrepreneurial. I was able to build things and repurpose things, but I couldn't receive things. A while ago, I had this mobile app before AI could code for you. Okay, this is when you, like, hired someone to build it. You helped design all the ui, all the things. So I knew nothing about technology, but I knew that young girls were taking their lives because they were being harassed online. Something snapped. I was like, I got to figure out something to do. I had no technical background. We built a community around it. We would do live events. And then the idea was if girls could build community in person, then they'd get a special code to activate an online community that they could then be a part of. But I wanted to kind of test. It was a beta. Could we create more safe processes to onboard? And could the girls just specifically have more things that cater to what they were needing in that time? So did a lot of, like, research, qualitative and quantitative studies around the country with that age group. Anyways, we developed this app. We have a few thousand people. I have a small team, and then I have a waitlist, about 2,000. I won some awards of innovation and just impact. So we had some seed funding. And then I moved to the Bay. And I think, oh, I'm gonna really take this thing to the next place. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I was so terrified that I could never be that person. Even I would say, honestly, financially, like, I could never. I could build stuff from scratch, but can I run a successful company? I did not think that I could receive any more funding. I didn't think I was worthy to do it, even though we had the proven mvp, which does not mean most valuable player. If you're listening, you're an athlete.

[B]

It means minimum viable product, which I had to learn. Or minimum valuable product.

[C]

Ooh, I like that. We're gonna go with that.

[B]

Claiming that minimum valuable product.

[C]

And I wanted to bring this up because I think it was really a powerful moment where on paper, I was doing all the things externally, maybe there was some level of success, but I internally could not receive. And it's funny because it also was, if you, like, expose that time in my relational life, I was struggling to receive love in a relationship. So they were not Separate. Remember we talked about those root causes. These habits are designed because they affect every area of our lives. And the more we have hope, the more we can build processes to navigate them. Not solutions, the processes to navigate them so that we can start to problem solve, emotionally regulate, build those relationships.

[B]

So what would repurposing look like for, let's say, a person who's listening to this, who has some type of financial goal? The type of people who listen to personal finance podcasts are people with financial goals and that they have hope, but they also have obstacles. What would repurposing look like in that context?

[C]

Yeah, that's a great question. With your financial goals, whatever obstacle you're going through, usually repurposing is attached to sometimes a problem that we. We feel that we have or that maybe we have empathy or compassion towards other people having. So maybe you've. Maybe you're on your journey and you're. You're chilling right now. Nothing too crazy is going on, but you recognize there's still a problem for other people on their journey, and maybe where you're at right now is it gets expanded and widened to where you actually offer support for somebody else in a place that you already came out of. Maybe you're, say, first base, and then you made it second base, and now maybe it's just like, how can I repurpose some of my first base struggles for someone who's struggling to get there right now?

[B]

Ah, this is kind of like how you're always giving advice to the version

[A]

of you of five years ago.

[C]

Yeah. I imagine a lot of why. And I don't want to speak for you. I don't know why you wanted to, you know, begin this community in this podcast is because there were areas maybe you recognized that you had to learn the hard way, and maybe you wanted to help make it a clearer route for other people.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Help them navigate.

[B]

Yes, tuition at the school of Hard Knocks is expensive.

[C]

Exactly. And guess what? You've been designing a life that looks like probably no one else around you that you came up with because you found you identified something that was a pain point, a problem, and you repurposed it. You gave it new colors, you gave it a mic, you gave it some lights, you gave it a nice little chair. You got a team around you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we're in a padded room.

[C]

Yes, there is padding. Yeah, That's a fake or real tree.

[A]

That's a fake tree.

[E]

Okay.

[B]

I got it from Amazon for $25.

[E]

Shout out.

[C]

Amazon, sponsor this episode. You're Already doing it. I believe where people are right now that there are areas they can apply themselves immediately. They're not where they've been and somebody else is. And a lot of repurposing is about service to others. And guess what that does. It builds community.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And what do we innately desire?

[B]

Community and connection. Right. Because that's the antidote to the loneliness.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

And loneliness is the precursor to hopelessness and despair.

[C]

Yeah. Because I'm honest. I mean, I want to be honest here. Like, it was really hard in certain areas of booms in technology and things like that to watch other people succeed around me and to know that I got, like, swallowed by a wave of fear. And it was so hard. I actually ended that specific app that I was telling you about because when we moved, I had no family in the area and I couldn't find childcare and I was in grad school, which I dropped out three times. I want to clarify that my path was not just linear and it was really, really hard to have a team in a different state. And my kid was just struggling a lot with the move, and it was just really hard to do it all. It's a lie when they say you can. And I had to realize that I could be upset that other people are going at a trajectory further than me that are more successful, that are getting the outcomes, that are getting the funding, that are building their teams. And I heard something about how people, people who try a lot, we fail a lot. You know that, right? Yeah, I was in the middle of that. And so if you're listening and you're in a place where you tried something and it didn't work out, I hear you. I feel you. I acknowledge that. And I hope you reflect on it. I hope you identify what that struggle was. If you stayed silent about it, why, what would support look like or feel like for you now? And what can you stay hopeful for? What can that maybe moment be? Because I had to realize that maybe the time at home was what was needed and that was enough and maybe I would build again someday. It didn't have to change who I was. I'm always going to be a builder. I'm always going to be a risk taker. I had to feel through that. But after, you know, in hindsight, I realized I never stop being me through the process, and that's the win. I may not have the wealth from that business that I would have liked to, but I stayed me through this process. And I think that is probably one of the scariest things is losing the things that you love about you in the process of wealth or prosperity or whatever our goals are.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But I would have liked that to be successful, though.

[B]

Well, thank you for spending this time with us. Where can people find you if they'd like to learn more?

[C]

Right now? You can find me online. Dr. Julia Garcia. The book is the Five Habits of Stories and strategies to help you find your way. It's also on audio format, which I had a ton of fun doing. So if you would prefer to listen to it in the car, you'll hear me on there. It's on Spotify as well as all places where podcasts are.

[A]

Thank you to Dr. Julia Garcia. What are three key takeaways that we got from this conversation? Key takeaway number one Hope isn't a feeling, it's a skill. And it's a skill that you can build. So a lot of people think of hope as something that either happens to you or doesn't, but Dr. Garcia reframes it. Hope is a cognitive process, one that literally activates the problem solving parts of your brain. And because it is cognitive, it's trainable. And hope is the single greatest predictor of success, which means building it isn't just for the sake of feeling good. That's a byproduct, but it's actually strategic. If you want to build wealth, you need to build hope.

[C]

Hope it releases dopamine, but the kind of dopamine that helps with our motivation. So it motivates us. It helps us to be able to separate from feeling like we can't do something, those limiting beliefs, those limiting thoughts, to realize that there are options and that affects how we feel. And so when we attach how we feel with what's happening in our mind, it's like a double power.

[A]

Hope isn't a feeling, it's a skill. That's the first key takeaway. Key takeaway number two Create maybe moments. Maybe you've got a bunch of debt and you're stressed out about how to

[B]

pay off all of that debt.

[A]

Or maybe you're convinced that you're never going to be able to buy a home. Or maybe you just feel stuck because it feels like all of your friends are so much further ahead than you are. Oftentimes what can happen is your brain shuts down the problem solving circuitry that you need. And Dr. Garcia has a very simple tool for that. She calls it the maybe moment. So instead of treating your worst thought as a fact, instead of saying, I can't do this, you say, maybe I can. That word maybe creates just enough of a wedge that you can start rewiring your thought patterns.

[C]

And so instead of believing something is a fact I can't do, this is too much, maybe I can and maybe interrupts it enough to just create a little wedge in our mind where now maybe if I say it enough, I start to rewrite some of those thoughts, take some of the pressure off.

[A]

Finally, key takeaway number three. Many high achievers will sabotage their own success because they haven't built the emotional muscle to receive. Entrepreneurs whose businesses finally take off after years of struggle, or athletes who sign big contracts after years and years of training and sacrifice, or people who went to school for a very long time and lived cheaply for a very, very long time because they were maybe putting themselves through school, they didn't have a lot of money as a student and then they get their first, first big high paying job and suddenly they're making a lot. You know, these are all high achievers, but some may not have built the emotional muscle to learn how to receive. And that is not a financial literacy problem. That is a sense of self worth problem.

[C]

Receiving is a very challenging thing to do when it comes to anything tied to our worth.

[E]

Right?

[C]

We feel shame. Maybe we don't deserve something. Maybe we're less than or because of what we know that only we know. And the ability to receive. Maybe forgiveness, love, kindness, wealth, prosperity. Those things can be blocked because we are not in an emotional habit of receiving them. So we don't know what to do. We get them.

[A]

Those are three key takeaways from this conversation with Dr. Julia Garcia. Thank you so much for being an afforder, for being part of this community. This show is based on Double I Fire, the five pillars of financial psychology, increasing your income, investing, real estate and entrepreneurship. And if you want a free workbook on how to think through those five pillars in your life, we have one available for you. It's completely free. Afford anything.fiire that's affordanything.com F I R

[B]

E. It's a fillable workbook for you

[A]

so you can think through those five pillars and how it applies in your own life. I hope you learn from it. Most importantly, I hope you use it. I hope you take action with it. Thank you again for being part of this community. If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it with people you love, people you like, people you tolerate. Share it with all the people in your life because that's how you spread the message of Double Eye Fire. Please open your favorite podcast playing app, whether it's Apple Podcasts or Spotify or Pandora. Whatever you're using to listen to this, hit the follow button so you don't miss any of our amazing upcoming episodes. Many people who listen to the show are not following us in your favorite podcast playing app, so please, if you are one of them, close that gap. Open your favorite app, open your least favorite app, open your second favorite app, open all of the apps that you use to listen to podcasts, and hit that follow button.

[B]

While you're there.

[A]

Please leave us up to a five star review. Thanks again for being part of this community. I'm Paula Pant. This is the Afford Anything podcast and I'll meet you in the next episode.