Mrs. Dow Jones: Your Childhood Is Running Your Bank Account

Summary

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Afford Anything | Make Smart Money Choices

Episode: Mrs. Dow Jones: Your Childhood Is Running Your Bank Account

Host: Paula Pant
Guest: Haley Sachs (aka Mrs. Dow Jones)
Date: May 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Paula Pant welcomes Haley Sachs, widely known as Mrs. Dow Jones, to discuss how our earliest childhood experiences and subconscious beliefs drive our financial choices—even decades later. Haley shares her personal journey growing up with privilege, the hidden pitfalls of relying on other people's money, and why "penny-pinching" is often a distraction from building real wealth. Together, Paula and Haley examine the psychology of money, the societal scripts baked into us, and how we can actually change our behavioral patterns to build financial autonomy and freedom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Money Scripts Are Set Early (00:06 – 07:11)

• Haley’s Background: Grew up wealthy on Manhattan's Upper East Side; her father was a private wealth manager. Despite privilege, there were always levels of wealth above and below, making comparison a constant.
• Childhood Money Perceptions:
  • “I just thought [money] was so cool and something that I wanted more of, but I had no idea how to make it or earn it.” (03:15, Haley)
  • The idea of money as power and glamour became Haley's earliest association.
• Family Silence on Money:
  • Despite her father’s financial acumen, money was not discussed at home. Out of fear of kids blowing wealth or losing ambition, her parents kept money talk minimal.
  • Paula highlights that kids always “pick up lessons” about money, even if no one is explicitly teaching them (06:25).
• Lasting Influence:
  • “Our money relationships are formed by the time we’re seven years old... Even if you’re not saying to a seven-year-old, here’s how to budget, they’re still understanding exactly from how you’re moving with money.” (06:41, Haley)

2. The Cost of Reliance: Autonomy & Shame (07:12 – 13:22)

• Strings Attached:
  • Relying on others—whether parents, partners, or debt—means surrendering autonomy:
    • “Whenever your money is not your own ... it comes with so many strings attached, and that keeps you really small.” (08:38, Haley)
• Personal Anecdote:
  • Haley relays a “Momofuku dinner” episode, where she charged a meal to her parents’ card, knowing it would trigger parental scrutiny and shame—highlighting the anxiety and loss of power tied to dependency (11:10).
• Financial Independence as Freedom:
  • “No one can stop me. I can do whatever I want ... because I have the money to do it, and I don’t have to ask anyone for permission. And that has been the greatest gift that I’ve ever given myself.” (09:28, Haley)

3. Why Penny-Pinching Doesn’t Work (13:23 – 18:47)

• Old School Advice Debate:
  • The narrative of “skip the latte” or extreme frugality is challenged:
    • “When I went to go learn about money online, I watched a video about rewashing paper towels.” (14:06, Haley)
• Financial Energy Concept:
  • Haley introduces the notion of “financial energy” as a finite resource misallocated to small savings instead of high-impact choices.
  • “We were given so the short end of the stick. They told us to use our financial energy on things like couponing... when in reality ... focus on making more money, automation... building financial literacy.” (15:45, Haley)
• The Real Needle-Movers:
  • The importance of increasing income, automation, negotiation, and investment—big-picture actions over everyday scrimping.

4. The Power of Early Money Memories (23:18 – 27:54)

• Invisible Scripts and the Need to Identify Them:
  • Paula and Haley discuss “invisible money scripts” and identify their own first money memories.
    • For Paula: spending Saturdays at multiple groceries to save pennies became a default scarcity mindset that she had to consciously unlearn (24:42).
  • “We are these little kids who are just carrying these same money beliefs from when we were children.” (26:26, Haley)
• “You don’t control your money, it controls you.” (28:56, Paula summarizes Haley's philosophy)

5. Societal Scripts: Pop Culture and Consumerism (30:08 – 36:57)

• Celebrity Influence:
  • Haley traces the link between pop culture, celebrity spending, and societal pressure to “look rich.”
  • Shows like The Fabulous Life of… and characters like Carrie Bradshaw glamorized spending over financial acumen.
    • “It made it seem like it was not chic to be good with money... it was cooler to spend all your money on shoes, and I definitely fell for that.” (33:38, Haley)
• The “Treat Yourself” Trap:
  • Emotional regulation through spending is both normalized and glorified (“retail therapy”).
  • Social media and frictionless tech (Apple Pay, 2am shopping) amplify impulsivity and emotional spending (32:48).

6. The “Ibiza” Framework for Money Mindset Change (22:52 – 67:50)

• Haley’s IBIZA Framework:
  • A memorable five-step guide for tackling financial habits at their root:

a. Identify (22:52, detailed at 26:38)

• Recognize childhood money memories and the beliefs/programs they spawn.

b. Blame (not explicitly named in transcript, but inferred after Z)

• Accept it’s not your fault—but it is your responsibility to take charge.

c. Interrupt (43:27)

• Break the chain—actively disrupt harmful scripts and patterns with conscious action, e.g., take a walk, use physical cues (cold shower, ice).
  • “It’s not your fault, but it is your responsibility... you start to try to interrupt these patterns and act differently.” (43:57, Haley)
  • “The most complicated part is just that our own minds are. That’s why you need to go to Ibiza.” (47:05, Haley)

d. Zhuzh (52:35)

• Replace limiting beliefs with empowering, “sparkly” ones. Practice mindset shifts and affirmations.
  • “97% of millionaires believe they could be millionaires before they made a dime.” (53:12, Haley)
  • “Who you believe yourself to be, that’s where your actions take place from.” (56:15, Haley)

e. Act (59:25)

• Take small, tactical steps to keep momentum: 15-minute “money sprints,” opening mail, canceling subscriptions, automating finances.
  • “Action creates more action creates momentum.” (59:29, Haley)
  • Money dates: monthly, scheduled time to review finances, plan, and set goals (“Like going to the gym—never really want to do it, but it’s essential.” 63:09, Haley)

7. Learned Financial Helplessness & Mindset Barriers (47:14 – 52:29)

• Learned Helplessness:
  • Particularly acute in Gen Z and Millennials, who confront a nihilistic mindset (“the system is rigged, so why even try?”).
  • Coping is often externalizing helplessness: relying on the world to accommodate you, expecting others to bend (seen in colleagues/friends constantly negotiating discounts, or avoidant behaviors).
  • “That is learned financial helplessness, for sure.” (51:12, Haley)
• Overcoming Stagnation:
  • Interrupting these patterns is what distinguishes those who will move forward from the majority who “just complain and stay stuck” (52:23, Haley).

8. Notable Practical Tactics (62:54 – 67:50)

• Monthly ‘Money Date’:
  • Essential for reviewing charges, returning items, canceling unwanted subscriptions, and setting forward-looking financial goals.
  • “Even though I keep a close eye on things, there’s always something [to catch]… Most people are just going off of vibes.” (63:19, Haley)
• Automation and Systems:
  • Minimize repetitive overwhelm by setting up automatic payments, reminders, and digital billing (61:39).
• Pomodoro Method:
  • For overwhelming tasks, break them down into 25-minute focused sprints (66:49).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Our money relationships are formed by the time we’re seven years old... Even if you’re not saying to a seven-year-old, here’s how to budget, they’re still understanding exactly from how you’re moving with money.”
  — Haley, 06:41

• “Whenever your money is not your own ... it comes with so many strings attached, and that keeps you really small.”
  — Haley, 08:38

• “I feel like we were given the short end of the stick. They told us to use our financial energy on things like couponing, on things like skipping the latte... when in reality... how can I learn more about compound interest and max out my tax advantage retirement account?”
  — Haley, 15:45

• “We are these little kids who are just carrying these same money beliefs from when we were children. And then we have to find a way to unlearn them and grow wealth on our own if we want to have financial freedom.”
  — Haley, 26:26

• “97% of millionaires believe they could be millionaires before they made a dime.”
  — Haley, 53:12

• “Action creates more action creates momentum.”
  — Haley, 59:29

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:06 – 07:11: Childhood money beliefs, parental influence, and silent lessons
• 07:12 – 13:22: Shame, anxiety, and lack of autonomy from relying on others
• 13:23 – 18:47: Penny-pinching vs. high-impact financial actions; the financial energy concept
• 22:52 – 27:54: The IBIZA framework begins: identifying scripts and the importance of the “first money memory”
• 30:08 – 36:57: Societal money scripts, pop culture’s impact, and “treat yourself” culture
• 43:27 – 47:05: Interrupting old patterns with practical tools (interrupt, ice cubes, cold showers)
• 52:35 – 56:15: “Zhuzh”—Upgrading beliefs and practicing future-rich affirmations
• 59:25 – 67:50: Tactical action: monthly money dates, automation, overcoming burnout

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Three Key Takeaways

1. Your childhood is still running your finances.
   Most of our adult money beliefs trace back to scripts absorbed before age seven—often unconsciously. Awareness is the first step to change.

2. Relying on anyone else’s money keeps you small.
   True autonomy, freedom, and dignity require building wealth and making decisions with 100% of your own money.

3. You’re spending your financial energy on the wrong things.
   Focus your attention on high-impact actions (earning more, investing, automation) rather than small, draining habits (couponing, penny-pinching) that don’t move the needle.

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Where to Find Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)

• Book: Future Rich Person (Audible & print)
• Podcast: Financial Tea
• Social: @MrsDowJones on all platforms

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Stay rich!

Transcript

[A]

Most personal finance advice tells you to obsess over every tiny purchase. Today's guest says that's exactly the problem. So we're going to talk about where to actually put your financial energy and why penny pinching is a distraction. We'll also talk about how you learned bad money habits because your money habits were formed before you were 7 years old. We'll discuss how to find them, interrupt them, and replace them with ones that will actually help you build wealth. Welcome to the Afford Anything podcast, the show that knows you can afford to anything, not everything. This show covers five pillars. Financial psychology, increasing your income, investing, real estate, and entrepreneurship acronym double I Fire. I'm your host, Paula Pant. I trained in economic reporting at Columbia. And on today's episode, we are joined by Mrs. Dow Jones. Her real name is Haley Sachs, but under the social media name Mrs. Dow Jones, she has over 700,000 followers across Instagram, TikTok and other social media platforms. She was named 40 under 40 by Fortune magazine in 2020. She was also 40 under 40 again in 2023, also by Fortune magazine. She was creator of the year by Ad Week, and Money magazine named her their change maker of 2023. In today's episode, we talk about why it is that you can track every dollar, you can read every personal finance book, and you can still feel like you're getting nowhere. We're going to talk about why that happens and what you should do instead. How do you move the needle? To discuss that, here is Mrs. Dow Jones. Hi, Hailey. Hi, Paula. Thanks for joining the show.

[B]

I'm so excited to be here.

[A]

Hailey, you grew up as a rich kid.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Your dad is a private wealth manager for Goldman Sachs.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you grew up on the Upper east side.

[B]

Yes. I can't turn it off. I. Everyone's like, okay, I'm done. Gonna hate me already.

[A]

I can't even imagine that life. Take me back to, like, when you were 5. What were your thoughts about money as a rich kid?

[B]

I think we all grow up surrounded by, I feel like, like, socioeconomically these neighborhoods that are similar to us. Like, whether you grow up with money or without money or you're middle class or any of those things. And at that time, there was no Internet, so all that I really knew was what was around me. A. I thought it was normal that kids were going on spring break or, you know, there was a lot of childcare or we were all, like, taking cello, you know, or studying French. I think something that I really noticed about money was how it gave you Power. And so I was always interested in that and how it made things feel a bit more glamorous and fun.

[A]

How so?

[B]

Well, I mean, maybe not when I was five, but in general, you know, I've always loved celebrity culture, and I feel like that is so. The glamour of that is so intertwined with wealth because there's so much spending that happens with celebrities that, like, makes them feel like they're on a different plane than you. Like, they feel aspirational because of how they are, you know, using their money.

[A]

Right, right. That conspicuous consumption.

[B]

Yeah. Which is so dangerous. But, you know, it just is sort of the truth that I think you're asking. My first perception of, like, what was money? I think I just thought it was so cool and something that I wanted more of, but I had no idea how to make it or earn it. But I really wanted to talk about it and, like, be around it.

[A]

When did you realize that you were rich? When did you realize that what was around you was not normal?

[B]

Well, what's so funny? And I think this is just true for anyone. Comparison is so difficult with finances. I didn't have student debt. I went to private school. Like, all of these things that were really comfortable. We went on vacation, but there were always kids that had so much more money than I had. You know, like, there was a girl, Natalie, in my class who would pick me up with her driver to go to school and, like, you know, oatmeal that her cook had made her, and I, you know, would have, like, a little bite of it. So it was always like, okay, Natalie is richer than me, or, you know, the same feeling that any. Like, we're all on this hamster wheel. I think. Unless you're like. And Jeff Bezos is only the fourth richest man in the world, so I'm sure he's like, 3, 2, 1. What do they have? What kind of cook is making them oatmeal? You know, I want to steal that cook.

[A]

Right, right. Although once you get up to Jeff Bezos level, I mean, wealth is so. It's all on paper, so it's all really theoretical. Like, there's such a difference between a person's net worth versus that liquid income expressed in your monthly spending.

[B]

Totally. And I think that something that was similar for me with, like, anyone was just how I wasn't taught anything about money. Like, despite the fact that I grew up in a very wealthy zip code, it wasn't as though there were discussions about, you know, like, I always tell people, like, tax your kids allowance, set up custodial Roth IRAs, like, there's all these great ways to teach your kids about wealth that I certainly will do when I have children. But none of that was happening. So, you know, it was something that felt aspirational, but also so far out of reach.

[A]

Why was that? Like, have you ever asked your parents why they didn't teach you about money?

[B]

Well, I mean, my dad, his job is working with families who have immense wealth. He has seen so many kids whose parents had means just lose ambition, blow it all. Maybe they just never be able to really self realize and find a way to make a name for themselves. And so I think that as a reaction to that, he wanted to like keep money really far out of the conversation in our family and despite the fact that we were in this tony neighborhood, try and make things as low key as possible. Maybe almost to a detriment.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Just because he was always scared of that happening. Not that we have that amount of money at all, you know, but just I think that was scary.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I also think he struggled growing up. And so also maybe it was a gift to us as well to be like, well, I didn't have, you know, they're not going to have to worry about this in the way that I do, which I think a lot of parents relate to. You want to protect your kids from what you went through.

[A]

Right. And the kind of funny part about that, that I guess a lot of parents don't realize, is that when money is not overtly discussed, kids pick up, they still pick up lessons. They just might be picking up the wrong ones because they're just looking at context clues, but without proper context.

[B]

Yeah. And our money relationships are formed by the time we're seven years old. Even if you're not saying to a seven year old, here's how to budget, they're still understanding exactly from how you're moving with money. Okay. Like, money is something that you should feel anxious about, or money is something that we never have enough of or you know, like all these feelings and then that's what you bring into adulthood. Or money is something that we always have to look beyond ourselves to have. We can't rely on ourselves for it. Which was something that I really picked up in childhood.

[A]

So at what point did you then like embrace taking control of your own money? Because you, you kind of went through this, and I don't want to use the word journey because it's, it's so overworked, so burning. Yeah, exactly. But you went through the transition of growing up in an environment that provided everything, but you lacked autonomy to where you are now, where you have total autonomy and control and knowledge over how you spend money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And how you manage money or.

[B]

First of all, Paula, I just want to say that I would be an to complain about any sort of leg up that I had financially, especially right now with everything that's happening. And it just feels like, you know, for most Americans, they're just on this hedonic treadmill of debt and inflation and wages aren't keeping up and the housing crisis and it's AI is taking all the jobs and there's so much out there that makes you feel helpless. And I know that it seems like this cheat sheet to just be born rich and then everything will be, you know, a. Okay. And look, money solves a lot of problems, so I can't say that that's 100% not true. If I ever needed to go to therapy, which is huge, I needed rent or, you know, like these things that are so. Health care, clothing, you know, all these fundamental things that takes a lot of pressure off to have that. But something that I think is universal is whenever you're relying on money that's not yours, be it maybe you're in a relationship where you're financially reliant, you're in debt, so you're relying on the government or credit cards for your cost of living, or maybe your parents are paying for things. Whenever your money is not your own, it comes with so many strings attached, and that keeps you really small.

[A]

Now, the strings attached, is it that your parents. And this isn't really so much about you because you've seen, outside of your own case study, you've seen this play out amongst your peers as well. Is it that parents are strict and so they want to dictate or govern the way that you, you know, what you major in or what career you go into or who you marry or when you marry those types of things where you live?

[B]

I mean, yes, absolutely. I think there's like so much expectation. But yeah, it's also just like, yeah, there's a right and wrong answer. Like, when someone's paying for things, it's like they get to make the decision of if what you're doing is approved. And that's why I'm so obsessed with financial independence, because I'm like, wow, no one can stop me. I can do whatever I want. Literally, the world's my oyster. I want to go on a trip tomorrow. I want to donate to a charity. I want to move neighborhoods. I want to have a dog. I want to, you know, have kids. Whatever I want to do in this crazy life, I can do because I have the money to do it, and I don't have to ask anyone for permission. And that has been the greatest gift that I've ever given myself.

[A]

Is it the idea that somebody else has authority, even if that authority is not exercised? Or is it that in some cases that authority is overly exercised and you end up kind of living a life that's not yours?

[B]

When I was 24, at that point, I was working in comedy, so I worked for David Letterman. I was doing a lot of, like, standup and improv on the Lower east side, but I was also hustling. So, like, my. It was not the sort of, like, rich kids situation where my parents were like, here's all this money. Just do whatever you want. My apartment was around $1,200. They paid for half of it. And then I had a credit card for emergencies that I would sometimes abuse, and then I would get in trouble for it. I was working at a Pilates studio. I was nannying. And then I had this job as a page. But it wasn't like I was growing wealth, but I definitely had, you know, I had some jobs. I was making money. It was my 24th birthday, and I went to go visit my friend Rhiannon in Toronto. It was 2015 or something, and so, like, momofuku was a really big deal. Remember it, like, just started and, like, everyone's like, oh, my God, it's noodle bar. It's so cool. So we went to the one in Toronto and. And it was such a cool night. I was wearing, like, something vintage. I felt so cool about myself. And then the check came and I saw the number and I was like, ooh, like, definitely can't afford that with my, like, babysitter Pilates David Letterman page money. I guess I'm gonna put it on my parents credit card. And the moment that I did, I could feel, like, the anxiety of knowing that, like, then I was gonna get all these texts and inquiries of, like, oh, what was that charge? Why do you think that you can spend. You know what I mean? Coming for my. About that dinner when, like, I just wanted to go to Mofuku and have fun with my friends, but because I didn't have my own money, and frankly, I should have asked for permission, but I didn't because I think I was ashamed of not having money. It put me in this stressful situation where I was then, like, avoiding looking at my Phone that whole evening because I was like, my mom is definitely like on my case. And she was.

[A]

Your mom texted you that night?

[B]

Yeah, that night. What's this charge? Like ask at least. You know what I mean? And it's her money. She should ask. But like, it was. And it was disrespectful that I. Without asking. But like, there were just so many incidents of that where, like, I couldn't afford the life that I wanted. And so then I was using money that wasn't mine to get there. And then it put me in situations where I felt small and I didn't have autonomy over my life or my decisions. And I was living with all this anxiety. And what was worse is that I didn't really see a way out because I think that I sort of thought I never. No one ever empowered me to think that I could make money or grow wealth.

[A]

Yeah. Which is surprising to me because I would assume that in like the best of the best private schools, they would be preparing you for the best of the best careers.

[B]

No, they really. No. There was no financial literacy taught. And I do think that's something that really does need to change immediately. In California, they're going to add financial curriculums to schools, which I think is so important. But it's like you should leave high school knowing how to do your taxes, knowing how to make a budget, you should take a class on basic salary negotiation. Just all these things that you sort of need to be an adult. That should be so normalized. Never taught.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then was never taught in college either. I took in so much of the messaging that it wasn't for me too. And that it also that in order to be financially successful, I was going to have to really deprive myself, which was something that I was clearly avoiding by, you know, spending money in my parents cart or whatever. I was scared of the deprivation, which I think a lot of people relate to. It sounds horrible. What I realized was it's actually, you know, something that I was totally capable of.

[A]

Right, right. Because you're talking about a time period. So if we're going back to 2015, that was a time period in which when you went online to look up how do I be good with money. That was peak the simple dollar. Right. Where Trent Ham would talk about bisecting dryer sheets. Like you're cutting up your dryer sheets, rewashing your paper.

[B]

When I went to go learn about money online, I watched a video about rewashing paper towels. Wow. So I was like, wow, this can

[A]

paper Towels be rewashed? Would they fall apart?

[B]

I don't know. I guess if you got like a good. Maybe bounty's like, got more going on than we think, but wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. And, you know, it just makes you feel I'm all about making more money. I really come from an abundant mindset. And so I think all those feelings of cutting back, don't buy the latte. Shaming us for our purchases, like telling us that we're so frivolous, really affected me.

[A]

You've got these 10 rules. One of the points that you make and one of the rules is that a lot of people spend a lot of energy on the wrong things because you're spending all of this energy doing something that will ultimately save you $2, and you're not negotiating for a raise.

[B]

I'm so glad that you brought that up, Paula. Financial energy is what I coin has really changed my life. And I don't know if you relate to this, but I feel like every day I wake up and I think, okay, I'm only gonna have the green juices today, and I'm gonna run a triathlon and I'm gonna cure cancer and donate to a million charities and do my whole to do list and see my parents. And like, we think that we have all this energy for all these things. And then by 4pm I'm usually like, I need a cookie. Where's a glass of wine? I'm tired. I need a nap. We really run out of steam fast as humans. And I think that happens even more so with finances because it can be very emotional to look at your finances, take action on your finances. It can be quite draining.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I feel like we were given so the short end of the stick. They told us to use our financial energy on things like couponing, on things like skipping the latte, on things like just be really nice at work and do a good job and they'll take care of you. You don't need to ask for a raise or things like that. You know, all these things that were sort of in our mind of how to be in the world as a sophisticated adult were actually such a waste of time and don't move the needle. You know, when in reality it's like, okay, if you have this finite amount of financial energy, what's the best use of it? Okay, well, I should focus on making more money. I should focus on automation, because a month from now, I might not want to look at my credit card statement. So I gotta make sure that it's being paid on time and That I have these foolproof systems, even if I as a human am fallible. You know, I gotta focus on building my financial literacy instead of focusing so much on like cutting coupons. How can I learn more about compound interest and how maybe I could max out my tax advantage retirement accounts, you know, so these things that really would move the needle forward and that are actually going to in 30 years create such a difference in your financial life versus those small changes that are really just distractions.

[A]

Right, right. So let's stay on this topic because this is something that I've grappled with for a very long time. Because, you know, you hear these contradictory statements that are both true. I guess wisdom is holding multiple statements that seem to be in contradiction simultaneously. On one hand, it's true that it's not just what you make, it's what you save. There's truth to that. And yet there's also truth to you can't shrink your way to greatness or you can't budget your way into wealth a hundred percent.

[B]

Well, I talk a lot about this idea of action money. And this is why you even see like high earners. Like you're talking about me growing up wealthy. There's so many families that I know from growing up who did not keep their wealth because they were spending so much to keep up with the Upper east side perceptions and keep up with the Joneses. And then even though they were making a lot of money, were spending so much money so there was nothing left over. But meanwhile, a janitor in Vermont died with $8 million.

[A]

Oh yeah, Ronald. Ronald somebody.

[B]

Yeah, Ronald. Of course, Ronald. We all know Ronald. One of the best Ronald's of all time. So it really is just about being able to have a Delta left over at the end of the month. So you're not spending everything that you make and then having the financial wisdom of knowing what are the steps to take with that leftover money. So it's not just sitting in your savings account, or worse your checking account, doing nothing. And like you're looking at it every time you open your bank account thinking, wow, this is awesome. Look at how much money I've saved. You know, where you're actually having it grow for you and compound and move your financial life forward.

[A]

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[B]

Money is so emotional. I always say, like, I can teach you all this stuff, but it's never going to stick. And I've seen it with tens of thousands of students that I've taught. It's never going to stick if you. And I've seen it with myself too. If you don't figure out why you're making these decisions and sort of what's driving it and the core reason. I mean, have you seen that in your own financial life?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. On this show we cover these five pillars. The first one is financial psychology.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And it's the foundational pillar. Because if you don't get the psychology right, I mean, it's just. It's foundational.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Nothing else can happen unless you get the psychology right.

[B]

100.

[A]

And it's very much because we start with these invisible scripts about money that we're not even consciously aware of. And unless we challenge those scripts and we challenge our. Our most deeply held beliefs about money, you know, you can't take action with your hands unless your head believes it first.

[B]

100%. I'm going to try something with you that you sort of did to me already. But do you remember your first money memory?

[A]

Oh. Hmm. Okay. I would say as a kid, my mom would sit at the dining table and she'd clip coupons. And then she knew that bread was cheaper at one grocery store and bananas were cheaper at the other grocery store and milk was cheaper at the third grocery store. And then all day Saturday, she would take me with her and we'd go to grocery store A and B and C and D. It would take the whole day just to do a grocery run. But it was because she knew exactly what was cheapest, where. And we spent a lot of time doing that. Those are like some of my most formative money memories, which really, it's the memory of, you know, it sounds Good. Quote unquote good. On the surface, like it sounds.

[B]

It's a waste of financial energy.

[A]

It's such a waste of time.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, you like. It's so exhausting and takes so much logistics and. Yeah, that is right. She would imagine if she had put that same energy that she had put towards couponing, which by the way is like, that takes a lot of brain power. That's hard. She would have been, it would have been so much easier for her to just like learn how to buy an index fund. That would have been so much more simple. But no one ever teaches that. So with that idea of being so frugal and couponing, did you feel like that came out later in your life too?

[A]

Definitely. So my story of my 20s is sort of the opposite of yours, where I in my 20s had tremendous financial anxiety and a huge scarcity mindset because I was worried that there was never going to be enough money. And so I reacted to that worry by just clinging on to every penny and being frugal to the point where it was detrimental to my life. So I had to really unlearn that and like teach myself that it was okay to spend. When I look back on my life so far, most of my mistakes have been mistakes of not spending enough. Like I look at my business. Yeah, you know, my business I think has been under capitalized because I've had this fundamental hesitation to, you know, when you, when you hire an employee, you're taking a risk and you're taking like a six figure risk. When you're hiring a full time employee, you're like, I'm going to spend six figures for one year of this person's time in the hopes that this might pay off, but it might not. That's tremendously frightening, particularly for someone who came from a scarcity mindset.

[B]

We all have the same story at the end of the day, which is like, we are these little kids who are just carrying these same money beliefs from when we were children. And then we have to find a way to unlearn them and grow wealth on our own if we want to have financial freedom.

[A]

Right, exactly.

[B]

So what you've done, good for you. But anyways, in Ibiza, the first step is identify. So you're right on track. You found your money memory, you figured out exactly how it showed up in your life and now you've been able to unpack that and hopefully are making changes to live differently.

[A]

Right, right. And there's some stat you have about how, what is it, 70 or 80% of people say that their biggest money memory that they have like really comes from their parents.

[B]

Like that's 100%. Yeah, it's all from your parents. It's all from childhood. But what's so weird is like in most households, it's really not talked about. Actually, a lot of people who become financial experts, I feel like, are in those situations where they are at a young age having to take of the finances in a house. Like a lot of maybe you're in like a first generation household where like you see your parents being taken advantage of in the system, which happens so much because it can be really hard for people who move to America to like feel comfortable with credit and things like that. It seems like they almost are these 10 year old future millionaires where they're like, they know to like hustle the money at the lemonade stand and put it into the stock market. But I don't think that you need to be someone who had that sort of childhood or upbringing to be able to take control of your financial life.

[A]

Right. Whatever your childhood story is, there are healthy. Yeah, there are healthy things you learned and there are unhealthy things you learned. And as an adult, your responsibility is to unlearn the unhealthy things 100%.

[B]

Yeah. And you're so capable of doing it. You know, I look at financial wellness as like the third pillar of health that we don't talk about. Like we have physical fitness, we have mental fitness, and I think financial fitness is so important too. But it's like, you know, we people, it's so normalized to like have trainers or go to the gym or go to a workout class or a lot of people have therapists or they're, they're reading self help books or listening to self help podcasts. Which is why I mean your podcast is so great. But in the financial realm, it's not as like encouraged. You're either. You feel like you have to be a certain kind of person to be interested in it and otherwise you just sort of ignore it. But when you do that, it prevents you from living a 360 degree, like fully whole life.

[A]

Yeah, well, that's absolutely true. And it goes back to. You phrased something really well. I'm trying to remember the exact wording, but it's like money. Actually, you know what, I'm gonna look at it.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

The one about control money. If you don't control your money, it controls you.

[B]

Yeah. If you don't control your money, you control your life. And that's why I say, yes, I come from this privileged upbringing, but it's like the core feeling is the same for everyone. If you're not in control of your finances and someone and you have to look outside of yourself to live the life that you want, then, yeah, you're just like a little baby, you know, you're not in control of your life. You're not in control of your choices, and it keeps you feeling really small and prevents you from being the best version of yourself.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, I would rather live smaller but live on my own, which I didn't know this in my 20s. I would have probably been so much happier had I not been like, okay, fine, I'll just put the momofuku on my parents card or whatever. And then dealing with that shame. And then like, I have to like go through that whole cycle with my mom, which was like something that had been repeated through my life, you know, and like without ever solution versus just like, we could have gone to a different restaurant. You know what I mean? Like, that. And that probably would have been. Made me feel so much better.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Understanding money etiquette, understanding how to communicate about money, and feeling comfortable putting your goals first outside of, you know, spending money to look like you have money. Because I think so many purchases and experiences that we do that we go for are just driven by that.

[A]

We've talked about your early childhood experiences with money inside of your family, particularly from your parents. But there's also the social component of messages that we learn about money from broader society.

[B]

100% from.

[A]

You mentioned celebrity culture earlier. Can you talk about that? Both positive and negative messaging, social messaging?

[B]

Yes. Well, I mean, this is like my favorite topic, Paula, because you know that I'm obsessed with celebrities and money. I feel like everyone is obsessed with pop culture. At least I am. Like, I love to read like the Daily Mail and things like that. But when I first started especially, I felt like people were not really that interested in learning about their personal finances. Cause we all have that resistance. And from, you know, maybe there is that childhood memory. And then we're trying to avoid at all costs. So it is a really good way in is by using celebrity. But yeah, I think that right now we're in this crazy time because when I was growing up, there was a show on VH1 or I read it was MTV called the Fabulous Life of. Do you remember that?

[A]

No. No.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. And there was this British narrator, and they would take you behind the scenes of how celebrities were spending money. And it would be like Jay Z and Beyonce are on this yacht for a week for $500,000. And then it would like show you throughout the yacht. And it was like the best 30 minutes of television. I like ate it up. It was so fun.

[A]

Oh, that's cool.

[B]

But it also created this unrealistic expectation that that's what we should all, like, aspire to, or if we don't have that, then like, we are not succeeding. And I think we see that now at a microcosm online with influencers where all they present is like a positive version of their lives. And then they're telling you buy these products and you can get closer to that.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And then you add on top of it that the year 2026 finance is so frictionless. Like, I'm looking, there's a square right there. I think if I want to have like a candy, I could pay, you

[A]

know, you can just have a candy.

[B]

Thank you. Wow. But how'd you know that was secretly what I was asking for? But everything is so you just use Apple, pay like Apple be paying. Could be 2am and you could buy a $3,000 couch, like with your eyes half open, you know? And I think also the world has become so much more stressful too. I mean, just on paper, like, the facts are, the data is there. It's such a hard time economically. But then also we're exposed to so much more media about these realities. Like, the 24 hour news cycle really does take a toll. And so I think that so much of spending too is like just emotional regulation.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Something that helps me so much is like, did I take a walk? Did I do my meditation today? Like, when was the last time I took a breath that I was noticing just like calming down a little bit? Because otherwise it's so easy to get into that just impulsive spending, frictionless spending sort of cycle.

[A]

Right? And we live in a society where emotional regulation through consumer spending is normalized.

[B]

So normalized. So it's the, yeah, the treat yourself culture. And it's like it really does form your opinion of money. Like, it's like, you know, I grew up in the sex and the city generation, so like, obviously Carrie was the it girl of that. So we're seeing a woman who like bought shoes instead of buying a house and has no idea about her finances. And then Miranda, the boring one, is the one who buys a house, you know?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or in Legally Blonde, whenever Elle is upset, she goes right to the nail salon. Or like in Issaray, in Insecure, Issa Rae is splitting her rent with her situationship in Friends. Rachel Green is, like, so financially clueless. The cool, glamorous women of that time weren't about their bag. And so I think that it made it seem like it was not chic to be good with money. You know what I mean? It sort of felt like it was cooler to spend your money all on shoes, and I definitely fell for that. Do you relate to that? I feel like you were more like you were just scared of not having enough.

[A]

Yeah, well, I. I learned to be

[B]

cool more, which is way worse quality.

[A]

Yeah, no, I was scared of not having enough. I also also,

[B]

like, why was I there?

[A]

I also had a fairly strict upbringing where I wasn't really allowed to watch much tv.

[B]

Oh, that'll do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like. I was a third child. They didn't know where I was. I was like, yeah, seated.

[A]

You were, like, a free range kid.

[B]

Yeah. You know, my. And we are all so busy because I think part of being like an Upper east side child is, like, you basically are booked like a CEO the moment school ends. You're, like, going from one because it's all pre college, right? Yeah. So sports, this, that. And so I had, you know, I snuck in some time there to really make sure that I was up on the culture, much to my detriment.

[A]

We have the opposite lives because I am pop culture clueless to almost a comical extent.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Like, to such an extent. People will make these references to, like, Ghostbusters or E.T. back to the Future or Bambi. And, like, I haven't seen any of it, you know, Star Wars. Like, nothing. I just. So people make these references, and I just give them this totally blank stare, or I've learned over the years to just kind of, like, smile and nod. But I have, like, a bit of a vacant look in my eyes, and my close friends have learned to recognize it, and they're like, you have no idea what I'm referencing, do you? And I'm like, no. And they're like, I'm referencing the Big Lebowski. Have you seen it? And I'm like, no. You know, and, like, it just.

[B]

It's brave of you to admit it. Thank you for the safe space.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So what is your culture, then?

[A]

Were Nepalese immigrants?

[B]

Like, what are. Like, when you, like, are off work or, like, what is. You know, what are you, like, interested in?

[A]

Yeah, you know, people have asked me that in the past. I don't know if there's really any specific thing that substituted it. I think just every Other thing in my life is maybe just takes a little bit longer. I don't know what it is. Like, maybe I just dally more. I don't know what it is.

[B]

You must have, like, so much more brain space than me who, like, knows every, like, Taylor Swift relationship timeline. I'm, like, jealous, but I would do with that bandwidth. But also it's good because it didn't, hopefully didn't affect you in the same way as it affected me. Well.

[A]

But yeah, I think you're. You're able to relate to people more, you know, Whereas. Okay, the one pop culture reference that I do get, because everyone says that I remind them of this character is Kimmy Schmidt.

[B]

Oh, cute.

[A]

Yeah. Like everybody.

[B]

Cause you're in a bunker.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Everybody's like, you remind me of Kimmy Schmidt. You're just completely clueless.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I haven't found you clueless at all. I found you very intelligent and vivacious and interesting to talk to.

[A]

Oh, thank you. Thank you. I'm book smart, but when it comes to pop culture, I'm clueless.

[B]

You gotta be both. Yeah, well, maybe not both, but, you know, I like books, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's why, honestly, I wrote a book because financial books changed my life. And I do think that, like, that is the best way. Like, everyone is, like, there is no substitute to just having a fine. Like, you could just read one finance book, it would change your entire life.

[A]

Yeah. What was the first one you read?

[B]

The first one that I read was I actually jumped it. Maybe too hard, because I was like, okay, if I'm doing this, I'm going full. And I was obsessed. I became obsessed accidentally with Wall street. So sort of where everything popped off for me. So it didn't even start with personal finance. It was really about investing. And, like, you know, I was like, wow, like, business. And I want to know about stocks. And if a store was closing on my street, it was the end of brick and mortar, you know, Like, I was really bringing that to the table. I read Warren Buffett's Ground Rules, which is basically like a 500 page tome. Compound interests. Like, if you read that whole book and you. It has all, like, a lot of his shareholder letters. It's really interesting. It's a great book. I revisit it often. But, like, at the end of that book, if you're not just like, I need to get my money in the market working for me as soon as possible so that I can benefit from that compound interest, like, there's just no way to read it and not to feel like that. So that was super fundamental for me. And I also think, like, just in terms of a confidence boost, because I was like, wow, no one really ever taught me this. It's definitely not marketed to me. But it's not hard. Like, why is everyone pretending that we have to use all this jargon and that I need advanced levels of education to understand the stock market or my financial life? It's actually pretty much seventh grade math. And I just need to do four or five things right. And then I can be rich. But I also don't have to make this my whole person. I mean, I did make it my whole personality by accident. So sorry. But you know, you don't have to.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's part of a full life. It doesn't have to be your full life.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You don't need to day trade. You don't need to have your own business. You don't need to, like, you can live in a way that feels really comfortable and healthy for you. You don't need to over max out on the financial part of your personality. Unless you're me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think we both went a little too far there. Yes.

[A]

I mean, we both did make it our entire personality.

[B]

Oops. Too late now.

[A]

But it's because it's fascinating.

[B]

I think it's so.

[A]

I find it fascinating.

[B]

Me too. I still love learning about, like, my favorite part of my job is just reading.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It is the best.

[A]

Same.

[B]

Same.

[A]

And. And we've both been doing this for over 10 years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You still just find it fascinating.

[B]

I know it's sort of cool. It's like being in a relationship and you're like, you still got it. Yeah, I still get the hots for you. Like, that's how I feel.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I have this tendency to be a bit of a people pleaser. I can be a bit of a pushover, sometimes too agreeable. And so I wanted to learn negotiation skills. That was the original impetus for wanting to learn. When I decided that I wanted to learn those skills, I went on this. This quest of, like, absorbing as much information as I could. And that included watching Chris Voss's class on Masterclass. Chris Voss is a former FBI hostage negotiator. And what I discovered from his class is that the negotiation practiced by the FBI in hostage situations is very different from the type of negotiation taught in business schools. And so being able to take in both points of view helped me synthesize. And that really rounded out my understanding of the Field Masterclass puts you in the room with the people who defined their fields. They have more than 200 classes across 13 business, writing, cooking, Creativity, Wellness and more. Plans start at $10 a month billed annually and every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Oh, and when I watched the Chris Voss class it was easy to fit that into my day because every video was like bite sized, snack sized so I could just pop on a video while I was cooking and absorb it in pieces. Masterclass keeps adding new classes so there's no never been a better time to get in. Right now, as a listener of this show, you get at least 15% off any annual [e-mail] afford. That's 15% [e-mail] afford head to masterclass.com afford to see the latest offer Hiring isn't just about finding someone willing to take the job. I need the right person with the right background who can move our businesses forward. If I wanted candidates who match what I'm looking for, I'd trust Indeed Sponsored Jobs. In fact, I did. I used Indeed Sponsored Jobs to make two hires. One was for an executive assistant and the other was for a customer support and Operations assistant. For both positions we had the job posting up for less than 48 hours and within that time we got so many applications we got what we needed. So if your hiring Indeed is all you need, give your job the best chance to be seen with Indeed. Sponsored Jobs. Sponsored Jobs boosts your post for quality candidates and that makes a big difference. Sponsored Jobs posted on indeed are 90% more likely to report a hire than non sponsored jobs and more than 1.6 million companies sponsor their jobs with Indeed. So our two hires have both been working for us for several months now. They're great, wonderful, part of the team and we found them through Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less less time, more results. Now with Indeed Sponsored Jobs and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves@ Indeed.com Paula just go to Indeed.com Paula right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com Paula Terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the right way with Indeed. Your summer starts now with Memorial Day deals at the Home Depot. It's time to fire up summer cookouts with the next grill 4 burner gas grill on special. Buy for only $199 and entertain all season with the Hampton bay West Grove seven piece outdoor dining set for only $499 this Memorial Day. Get low prices guaranteed at the Home Depot while supplies last price and valid May 14th through May 27th. US only exclusions apply. See homedepot.com pricematch for details. And so with Ibiza. Ibiza. What is the second letter I?

[B]

The second letter I is interrupt. So this is where, okay, we've spent the first two steps figuring out where your financial habits are from. And, like, what is sort of making you act or feel the way that you do about money. And then it's what you're saying, it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility. And the second I. With interrupt, you start to take responsibility. So it's up to you to start to try to interrupt these patterns and act differently.

[A]

So it's interrupting thought processes that are not serving you and interrupting patterns or habits. I guess this goes back to what we were talking about earlier with, you know, one pattern might be consumer spending. For the sake of emotional regulation, a hundred percent.

[B]

Using thought, stopping, taking opposite action. A lot of people also create this huge narrative that they're doing everything wrong. So a lot of interrupt, too, is it's like doing a gratitude list almost for your finances, where you have to focus on, okay, what did I do right? Because you're not gonna get everything right. But, oh, did I make, like, three positive changes this week? Let's talk about those. Let me write those down. Just being able to take a beat is really huge. But, yeah, the opposite action is a big one where you want to buy that thing impulsively, so you get that dopamine hit.

[A]

Right.

[B]

What's the opposite action of that? Okay, maybe it is that I just am putting down my phone. It's freaking horrible. I don't want to do it. It's so fun to have your phone. But, like, I'm literally just throwing it, and I'm taking a walk for five minutes, taking a dramatic action to try and stop that moment. You've got to interrupt it. You know, something I do a lot. Well, not right now, because I did my hair for you, Paula, but I do, like, cold shower. Like, put my hands in something cold. Cold really helps me. I even did it this morning. That will just rid my mind of toxic thinking or, like, action, you know, making me want to take actions that I shouldn't.

[A]

You know, like plunging your hands in cold water.

[B]

Yeah, I do always do cold showers in the morning. I put my hands in cold water, too. If, like, that's not available, just. Yeah, something you take an Ice cube and rub it on yourself. Just like something that, like, physically shocks the body really helps you, like, bring you back down to earth. Because sometimes just like, sitting there, like, I have to move or, like, do something physical to like, get my nervous system feeling different.

[A]

Yeah. That is a good first financial expert

[B]

who's talking about using an ice cube as a way to get rich.

[A]

You are actually. Yeah. So these like.

[B]

These, like, psychological tricks if you actually. Because, you know, it's not going to be easy to become a future rich person, but it will be worth it. And in those moments where it is hard, you need systems to support yourself, because it's not like you're gonna just wake up one day and, like, be this different person who's, you know, none of this happened to and who, like, suddenly has all this knowledge and is always going to act perfectly.

[A]

Right. Your history will always be your history, no matter what.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's so important, too, in finance books and as financial experts for us to talk about, too. Okay. We're giving you all this advice, but we might not take it all the time. Like, no one is on a perfect trajectory. But the point is, is that if you get 70% of it right, you're gonna be. You're gonna have such a better life than if you didn't do anything at all. And like, that 70% could literally just be like automation, asking for a raise, making sure you are living within your means. Those are pretty much enough. Having a good credit card and banking system, making sure that you're maxing out your tax advantage accounts, that you have an emergency fund, these fundamental things. If you just get those right, you're pretty much set. It's not that complicated.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know what's the most complicated part is just that our own minds are. That's why you need to go to Ibiza.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes, girl.

[A]

Yeah. The most complicated part is often getting out of our own way. And it is because money is such an inherently emotional topic because it's value driven.

[B]

It's so funny you ask about, like, my upbringing because it's like, isn't that crazy that even in this, like, more like richer neighborhood, there still was, like, this feeling of not enough. It doesn't matter where you're at. It's like, money represents. And that's why also, people spend so much money trying to look rich instead of being rich, which we're seeing even more now. Like, the New York Times just did an article about these influencers who teach people how to fake rich, which I think is a huge issue in the millennial Gen Z generation is this idea of, like, learned financial helplessness, which comes from, like, financial nihilism, where you just feel like, okay, I'm on this floating rock. The world is burning. AI has taken all the jobs. Like, there's no opportunity for me to ever buy a house. The system is cooked, so why even try? Let me instead just put my energy into looking rich instead of being rich. Let me ignore my credit cards. Let me just, like, quiet quit at work because, like, I'm being passive on this journey because it's already just out to get me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so that's a big one that you have to interrupt because learned financial helplessness could eat you alive. Like, there's so many reasons not to.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

A million reasons why you can't, why you shouldn't, why there's no reason to. But at the end of the day, most people are going to listen to those reasons. So just by not, you're putting yourself into that small group who are going to win.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And winning is not hard.

[A]

You know, with learned financial helplessness. I'm thinking about my friend group right now.

[B]

Yeah. Name names, girl. Not naming names, but becomes like a gossip show.

[A]

There is one person I'm thinking of who her expression of learned financial helplessness is that the way she approaches everything is by saying, oh, I don't have the money for that.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

She tries to negotiate the price on everything, which in some ways it's a good thing because.

[B]

No, I don't think that's good.

[A]

I mean, she's able to score deals

[B]

on things, but it's like, if you're at the farmers, like, if it's like a small business, like, it's like part of good money etiquette. And, like, being a rich person is being able to. To say, like, okay, this is coming from, like, a local farmer. I'm not gonna, like, ask for these string beans to be $4 instead of 5.

[A]

Yeah. It's like she does it with everything ranging from. You mentioned comedy earlier. Everything ranging from rent to comedy classes. She just makes deals on literally everything. Because the first statement out of her mouth is, I don't have the money for this. What can we do? You know? And so in that sense, she's externalizing like, I don't have the money for this, so how can you bend in order to take care of me?

[B]

Yes. Versus how can I maybe find the money so that, like. Yes. By the way, I don't want to say that you shouldn't Negotiate. Because even just by negotiating your car insurance, if you compare rates, you can save. People save, on average $1,000. So, you know, you can negotiate your rent, you can negotiate down your credit card interest rates. Like, that's so great. But I think, like, when you're negotiating things with, like, small businesses, it just becomes something that is draining and, like, your friends are noticing it's a bit too much. So give her that.

[A]

Yeah, it's.

[B]

Yeah. She could look inside of herself for. Okay. How can I actually, like, afford to take, like, you know, a struggling comedian taking the teaching comedy class needs the money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't want to take it away from them.

[A]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's funny because sometimes it can be the right behavior for the wrong reasons. Because on one hand, negotiation generally is a good, good thing. Or like, you know, she maxed out

[B]

on it too much.

[A]

I think it's the mindset behind it. Like, the mindset of I expect the world to bend in order to cater to the budget that I state that I have, rather than I'm going to look inside myself to say, how can I double down, make sacrifices, not go out as much, cut my spending, work harder, you know, like 100%. Yeah.

[B]

It's locking herself up.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Yeah. That is learned financial helplessness, for sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it took me a while to notice that she's lucky.

[B]

Have you ever talked to her about it?

[A]

No, No, I haven't.

[B]

I feel like it might be hard to bring up, but, like, also, it's, like, sort of cool that you know that about her. Like, you could maybe help her.

[A]

Yeah, I've noticed that as an example. Just another example of learned financial helplessness.

[B]

Yeah. You see it everywhere. You probably. I mean, people who are listening probably see it in themselves, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I definitely had it. I think it's hard not to have it in some.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And sometimes people can express it in different ways. Some people are very avoidant, for example.

[B]

Yeah. And also even, like, little mindset things where you think, like, other people are just smarter or better equipped to deal with money than I am, which we tell ourselves. I feel like a lot. Or I used to tell myself that too. Like, oh, this is just. Isn't for me. I'm not the kind of person who can do this.

[A]

Right, Exactly.

[B]

Just these little repeating ticks that we have that keep us in place, keep us stagnant.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I do just want to say, like, truly the majority of people have those and are completely overtaken by them. So just by pushing Back and like, choosing to interrupt and go to Ibiza and judge your mindset and take action, then you put yourself in the position to win.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But yeah, there's not that many people out on the field. Most people are just going to complain and stay stuck.

[A]

Yeah. So then it is about interrupting those thought patterns and the actions that stem from them.

[B]

Yeah. So then the Z for it is zhuzh. So looking at your mindset and thinking about what's my old mindset versus my future rich mindset, maybe your mindset is I don't deserve to be rich. And then your future rich mindset is like, I don't need to settle. I'm waking up to my worth. Or talking about money is gross. But your future rich mindset would be like talking about money openly with trusted people is how I grow.

[A]

Right. So Z for zhuzh. For zhuzh, which is spelled Z H U S H Z H U Z

[B]

H, Z H U Z H. Pronounced J O O J.

[A]

Okay, so what does zhuzh mean?

[B]

Well, really, to step into your future rich person era, you do have to, like, clear out your old limiting belief and replace them with sparkly, limitless ones. So this step is all about judging up your mindset. And I think it's really important to remember that every future rich person started where you are now. They didn't get there by accident. They got there because they believe that they could. 97% of millionaires believe they could be millionaires before they made a dime. So that's what I'm saying. So many people will never even try or step on the court, but the ones who do and have that belief, they're in stop. They're unstoppable.

[A]

Have you read the Millionaire Next Door?

[B]

Of course. One of the best. I love that book. Yes. So, like, if you feel like you're capable of building wealth, then you're going to make decisions that align with that belief, and then it will become your reality. But again, this is not an overnight job. The path here is not like one and done. You're going to get it wrong. There are going to be things that you're going to have thoughts that you have to just identify as just noise and really realize that, like, those old money beliefs are not the boss of you. And you are creating your own money beliefs that you are consciously putting into your mind that are going to then guide your actions.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that takes a lot of work. But that is something that is totally doable. But it's like, it's something that I practice. Like this morning I was like saying all these mindset things to myself about the day.

[A]

Like what?

[B]

Well, I don't know. I woke up a little bit anxious. I've been doing so much press for the book. Just saying things like, only good things happen to girls like me. I am smart, I'm confident, today's gonna be a great day. Things like that just make such a difference, you know, I'm wealthy. Opportunities always find me. There's so much money out there, why not me? Whenever I have those more negative thoughts, trying to replace them with a belief that counteracts that because you know the negative thought's not true. That's just your old system. And it's so addictive to have bad feelings.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know what I mean? Like, it feels so much more enticing to feel bad than it does to feel good. It's like picking a scab. You sort of want more of that bad pain. So you really have to like, get past that in order to get to the next level.

[A]

Yeah. You know, we had Neil Iyer on the show recently and he talked about the same concept about how we often want to wallow in a negative feeling.

[B]

It's crazy, right?

[A]

And if you ask yourself, if instead you ask yourself, if you ask yourself the question, is this true? Then you're of course, immediately you want to be like, of course it's true. But then if you follow that up with like, is it absolutely, definitely, certainly the only possible truth.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Well, okay. There could be an alternate truth.

[B]

I know. Is that we convince ourselves so intensely that like, these are the facts.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But they're not. Like, there's so many. There's so many other ways for things to be right.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And so, yeah, even if it's corny, like doing like these things that feel. So maybe it's not your thing to like have a mantra or like consciously choose positive thinking. It really helps if you're serious about getting rich and really changing your money mindset and changing your financial actions. You do have to start with your beliefs because who you believe yourself to be, that's where your actions take place from. You know, you can learn everything you want about the stock market, about getting out of debt, about crypto. I don't know what your passion is, but it will never actually work unless you make the changes. I don't know if you're gonna get this reference. Do you know who Tyra Banks is?

[A]

She's a supermodel.

[B]

Good job, Paula. Okay, girl, we're cooking with this. Woo hoo. Okay, so I'll fill you in a little bit. Tyra was a super big supermodel in the 90s, and then she was very smart. She created this hit show, America's Next Top Model. It was a huge hit. It was franchise. It was in all these different countries. Lots of money for Tyra, but she grew up with a lot of scarcity. Then she just started working when she was young and basically just hoarded all of her money and never really dealt with her financial belief system and, like, her relationship to money. And it got to the point where. But she had accountants, you know? Cause she was at the point in her financial life, whatever. She needed a team. And they were like, tyra, you need to actually start spending money. Good problem to have, because you're giving all of your money to taxes. So we're gonna set up something for you called an F account. And this is, like, your money where you can spend it on what really you value. But, like, as an actual financial strategy, you do need to be spending more money, because otherwise the government's just gonna take it. So, like, don't you want to enjoy

[A]

it, like, within her business? They wanted her to.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. To. Exactly. But I always find that interesting because it's like. It's actually a bad financial example because it's like she never fixed her financial mindset and then just basically created a system around her that allowed her to keep existing in that way. But most people aren't gonna have accountants who are like, here's your F account, or, here's the antidote to all of this trauma that you have. We have to do it ourselves.

[A]

Right. But it does highlight the importance of system building as well. A hundred percent and surrounding yourself with a very good team.

[B]

Yes. And also that as you get more money, so much of the work becomes, like, today we're recording this on tax day. Not to brag. And so much of the work of becoming a future rich person is like, it's not just making money. It's how do you preserve your wealth? How do you keep more of it? You know, what are the systems that you have? You know, even with you, you're gonna be hiring more people. Like, what are the ways in which that's the most advantaged for you so that you are keeping the most money at the end of the day? Because if you make a hundred dollars and you keep 85% of it, it's really different than making, like, $150 or $200 and keeping, like, 30% of it, you know?

[A]

Right. So far, we've talked about. The first I is identify. The B is blame. The second I is interrupt. The Z is a zhuzh.

[B]

Fun to say.

[A]

What's the A? What's the. How do we cap this all off?

[B]

Well, the A is act. Because the thing is, is that when you take action, you really create momentum. But like when you sit there still, nothing really happens. So all this knowledge is so helpful, but it doesn't really matter if you don't act on it. So you start with Ibiz and then A is like the exact actions that you need to take to then become a future rich person.

[A]

So the A is the tactical component.

[B]

Exactly that. Then you're set up to actually be open to and actually utilize because you've cleared out all of those limiting beliefs and your childhood trauma and you understand why you're moving in the way that you are are and you're ready to make different choices. But I also start the set 5A act with just like a short 15 minute exercise. Because I really do believe, like I said, action creates more, action creates momentum. So I tell everyone, set a timer for 15 minutes and just in those 15 minutes, choose one of these actions and do it. So whether that's check your credit score, cancel a subscription, email HR to ask about like your 401k match. Open all your mail. No one ever wants to open their mail.

[A]

Go. Hey, opening mail.

[B]

Go to set a timer for 15 minutes. Probably going to do it today. Go open all your freaking mail. Shred the stuff that you don't need. Actually respond to what you do. But that's something that we always put off. Set up paperless billing for a bill, you know, return any online orders you've forgotten about. But just by having that little 15 minute sort of head start, it's going to move you towards financial freedom because success breeds success and you have to sort of create a track record with yourself that you are a future rich person. And it starts with those really small steps like, you know, Rome wasn't built in a day. It's literally you could, your whole financial journey could start just by you opening all your mail.

[A]

It's easier said than done because it often leads to just administrative overwhelm and financial overwhelm. That's something I, I hear about a lot from my audience. Is like, particularly for people who have been avoiding things for a while, once you start down the rabbit hole, every

[B]

task, too many things.

[A]

Yeah, it's too many things and it's overwhelming. And then every task, financial energy is zero.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, no, I get that. 100. That's why you need automation. Like, even if you. Okay, so say you hate your bills, which I. Or I mean hate your bills. Everyone hates our bills. But say you hate opening your mail.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When you go through your mail, instead of just going through it unconsciously, whenever you open it, think about, okay, could this be paperless? Is there something that I could set up to make this easier next time so that then you're creating more of a system versus just you're checking out a task that you're gonna have to do again next month, you know, but also set timers and don't do it all in one day. Cause the worst thing that you can do is burn out. That's why, like, really intense budgeting doesn't work either. Like, so much of becoming a future rich person is having balance. You know, I always like, financial anorexia doesn't work. You know, like, really strict diets don't work. The pendulum will swing back.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So it's about creating systems and then also having room for fun and good living and things that you enjoy too, because that's what's going to make it sustainable.

[A]

Right. Of the multitude of actions that people can take, there's automating your finances. There's enrolling in a Roth IRA for the first time if you haven't done so yet. Like, there's. There's just this long list of actions that a person could take. What do you think are the top priorities?

[B]

I think that the top priority is really just to have a money date as like your first step and make that something that you're doing monthly, even if you don't want to. I always say I've been doing money dates for over eight years. I never really want to do it. It's like going to the gym. Just sort of like you would rather do anything else.

[A]

Yeah. So a money date is.

[B]

It's a set time every month. I do it on the last Sunday of every month. I would not cancel it unless, like, Taylor Swift wanted to hang out. Do you know who Taylor Swift is?

[A]

I do. Good job. Nailed it.

[B]

Yes, mama. And it is a time where I can review my. I do like an audit. I review my credit card statements, which, by the way, even though I keep a close eye on things, there's always something. There's always something nefarious happening there. And most people are just like going off of vibes. They're not looking. I'm reviewing any, like, Venmo or PayPal things. Did that friend pay me back? Did I pay that friend. I'm reviewing invoices to make sure that I was paid. So I'm keeping a really tight eye on my bottom line, which is super important because if you don't, then someone else will. Yeah, it's hard to hold on to money. There's a lot out there that wants to take it from you. So you gotta make sure you have a system in place to actually succeed at that. This is also when I return any packages that maybe I've forgotten about the mail. Canceling subscriptions, just like getting things in order and then setting goals for the next month. So, okay, maybe I wanna go on a trip in two months. So, like, you know, whenever I am going to travel, I always cut back, even though I don't need to. It's just like a tick where I always feel like before I'm gonna go on a trip, I, like, tighten things up a little bit. I don't. That is, I need to figure out from my childhood why I'm doing that. Cause I don't remember us doing that so much. Maybe that's something I just picked up. You know, if I'm going on a trip, okay, how am I budgeting for that? Like, what am I looking out for this month? A lot of times before you travel, especially with Instagram, it makes you feel like you need to like, buy so much new stuff or do all these beauty treatments before. So if I have that time and my money to sort of think through, okay, what might be the hurdles that I'm gonna face to stick to my financial goals this month, it's gonna make it easier for me not to fall for them, or, okay, I need to ask for a raise this month. Okay, how can I. Can I schedule time on Thursday after work to chat with AI where I'm pretending that AI is my boss and we're going back and forth and I'm negotiating the raise with. With the AI so that when I go in, I'm really confident and I'm getting together, like my wins folder of everything that I did well this year, you know, like, so it also puts you in a position to plan for the future so that you are able to succeed.

[A]

All right, so all of that stems from a once a month money date. So it sounds like money date is like just comprehensive review and planning.

[B]

And don't make it too long. Like start everything small so that you want to do it again. Like I said, financial energy is finite. So don't burn yourself out on the future rich person journey. The goal is consistency. That's Literally it like the person who goes to the gym once is not going to be as fit as for, you know, for two hours and does it so intensely is not going to be as fit as a person who's going three times, two times a week, even if they're doing moderate training. It's the same thing with your finance. I mean, there's so much between like food and dieting. And with money.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's always like an easy analogy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That it's true. It's just about being consistent. Do you do a money date?

[A]

I've never called it that or thought of it like that.

[B]

But for me, if I don't call it that and schedule it, it'll never happen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I'm like very type B. Like, it's like I am, yes, I come from money, but I'm also a self made millionaire. Let me have it. Let me have it, Paula. I did it, girl. I came from stuff, but also made some. And I would never do it. I would do anything else. I'd go to like a yodeling conference, like whatever you want, wherever you invite me if it's on. Like, if I'm supposed to be doing a money date, I'm going there there instead. So I have to really etch it into my calendar and make sure it's like written in blood and then I do it.

[A]

How long does it take?

[B]

Well, that's what I'm saying is like at the beginning, like your, your audience that you're saying gets really overwhelmed by financial tasks, which I totally understand.

[A]

Not the whole audience, but there are some of them.

[B]

No, and I get that. And I. Something that I use a lot is the Pomodoro method. So, like set a timer for 25 minutes, right. And then just get as far as you can, you know what I mean?

[A]

And then take a five minute break and then you can do it again for 25, do it again.

[B]

You don't have to fix your whole financial life in one day. Wherever you're at, it didn't get that way in one day. So it's like, it might take a little bit of time to untangle, but like, as long as you show up with consistent action, then you're gonna be way ahead of all these other people.

[A]

Yeah. Even 25 minutes, especially if things are really tangled up, 25 minutes every morning, consistently similar to the gym can make a big dent.

[B]

Yeah. Or yeah, like, yeah, once a week, every morning, like whatever you have energy for is like, what the most important thing, right. Showing up for yourself. And also then it builds that self belief where you're taking action and action creates more action. So then you become like we're talking about, okay, replacing our self image of ourselves to become a future rich person. The more that you prove to yourself by those little actions, like, okay, 15 minutes, 25 minutes, then the more you're gonna start to see yourself like that and act like it.

[A]

Excellent. Well, thank you for spending this time with us. Where can people find you if they'd like to learn more?

[B]

Well, first and foremost, like I said, a financial book can change your life. All it takes is one future rich person. Out on Audible, I read the whole audiobook. And then also I have a podcast called Financial Tea and I'm everywhere as Mrs. Dow Jones. Mrs. Married to the Dow.

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

Yes. Thank you. Stay rich, Paula.

[A]

Stay rich. Thank you to Hailey, also known as Mrs. Dow Jones. What are three key takeaways that we got from this conversation? Key takeaway number one. Your childhood is still running your finances. A lot of us think that our money habits come from decisions that we make as an adult, but they don't. They come from lessons, subconscious lessons that we absorbed as kids. By the time you're seven years old, your core beliefs about money are already forming. And your parents don't necessarily have to say anything about money. You pick up their relationship with it, you pick up their habits, you pick up the vibe, you pick up the mood you're watching, you're absorbing. And the good news is that as an adult, once you start to name those beliefs, you can begin to change them.

[B]

And our money relationships are formed by the time we're seven years old. Even if you're not saying to a seven year old, here's how to budget, they're still understanding exactly from how you're moving with money. Okay, like money is something that you should feel anxious about or money is something that we never have enough of, or, you know, like all these feelings and then that's what you bring into adulthood.

[A]

That is the first key takeaway. Key takeaway number two. If you are reliant on money that is not yours, you'll stay small. Financial independence is not just about having a bigger number in your bank account or access to funds for the sake of lifestyle. It's about having full control over your own life. Hailey talks about a birthday dinner at Momofuku in Toronto and she charged it to her parents credit card and then spent the rest of the night avoiding her phone, feeling shame, feeling avoidance, knowing that she was going to need to explain herself. The problem was not the cost of the dinner. The problem was that she was spending somebody else's money. And that meant that they retained authority, they retained control. Whenever somebody else is funding your life, they have a say in it. And that means you have less autonomy. And that's why taking full control over your own money is critical.

[B]

Whenever your money is not your own, be it maybe you're in a relationship where you're financially reliant, you're in debt, so you're relying on the government or credit cards for your cost of living, or maybe your parents are paying for things. Whenever your money is not your own, it comes with so many strings attached and that keeps you really small.

[A]

Finally, key takeaway number three. You're spending your financial energy on the wrong things. We only have so much mental bandwidth. And when your cognitive load is sapped by something, good luck. Because you only have so much attention that you can give in a given day. Attention is even more scarce than time. And most of us have been trained to burn our cognitive bandwidth on tiny stuff that barely moves the needle. So we're skipping lattes, we're couponing, we're agonizing over small purchases. And the big stuff, like negotiating a raise, maxing out tax advantaged accounts, earning more, being entrepreneurial, buying investments, these big things get zero attention or limited attention. Haley talks about the concept of financial energy. The idea is really simple. You just treat your energy and your attention like a finite resource, which it is, and then spend it where it really matters.

[B]

I feel like we were given so the short end of the stick. They told us to use our financial energy on things like couponing, on things like skipping the latte, when in reality it's like, okay, if you have this finite amount of financial energy, what's the best use of it? How can I learn more about compound interest and how maybe I could max out my tax advantage retirement account? These things that really would move the needle forward and that are actually going to in 30 years create such a difference in your financial life versus those small changes that are really just distractions.

[A]

Those are three key takeaways from this conversation with Haley Sachs, better known as Mrs. Dow Jones. Thank you for tuning in to today's show. We have a course on rental property investing. It is called you'd First Rental Property. And we walk you A through Z on how to invest in rental properties. It is incredibly rigorous, very robust. I had a meeting last night. I had an office hours with my students. People talked about how much this changed their lives. One student came to the call and she talked about two particular properties, both of which she purchased recently and both of which have been game changers, creating the cash flow that's giving her breathing room, paying a portion of her bills, giving her a taste of residual income. And once you start building that, the flywheel begins spinning. We walk you through exactly how properties make money. There's cash flow. There's equity growth through principal pay down, equity growth through forced appreciation, market appreciation. There's tax benefits. We walk you through all of that. Then we help you find where to buy a property. Where are the places with great price to rent ratios? Where are the great markets out there? How do you look for deals? Do you look on market or off market? We walk you through all of that. We talk about financing, both conventional loans, institutional non conventional loans, creative financing, like seller financing. We walk. This is the closest thing to hold in your hand. We walk you through everything. You can learn more about it by going to affordanything.com enroll. That's affordanything.com enroll. We close our doors on Thursday, May 21. You've got between now and Thursday afford anything.com enroll. Thank you again for being part of the Afford Anything community. If you enjoyed today's episode, please share this with your friends and family. My name is Paula Pant. This is the Afford Anything podcast and I'll meet you in the next episode.