Q&A: A $30K Promotion Near FI, Learning Put Options, and Scaling a 16-Unit Portfolio

Summary

Afford Anything Podcast – Episode 700

Q&A: A $30K Promotion Near FI, Learning Put Options, and Scaling a 16-Unit Portfolio

Host: Paula Pant
Co-Host: Joe Salsihai
Release Date: March 24, 2026

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Episode Overview

This milestone episode (#700!) of the Afford Anything podcast delves into pivotal questions on making smart, nuanced money decisions. Paula Pant and co-host Joe Salsihai field three listener questions:

1. Should you take a major promotion with more responsibility close to financial independence (FI)?
2. How do you avoid scammy finance courses when wanting to learn options trading?
3. What’s the best way to scale a small real estate portfolio to the next level—and should you sell, refinance, or hustle for capital?

The discussion explores financial psychology, behavioral nuances of money, and practical steps for career, investing, and business growth.

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1. Navigating a $30K Promotion Close to Financial Independence

Listener: Melanie
[01:37 – 26:14]

Core Question:

Should Melanie pursue a $30k pay increase through a higher-responsibility job, even though she’s a few years from financial independence and pension vesting, or should she prioritize ease and enjoyment in her final working years?

Key Discussion and Insights

• Aligning Work With Meaning
  Paula urges Melanie to consider fulfillment:
  • “What enjoyment would you get from this role? … Mastery, autonomy, purpose.” ([04:00])
  • Ask: Will you gain mastery? Will you have autonomy? Will you find purpose and make a positive impact?
  • Joe cites research on “mattering”—how making an impact and feeling needed is a crucial retirement factor. ([05:36])
• Pitfalls of Using Only the ‘FI Number’
  The duo challenges traditional FI strategies:
  • Joe: “I think, to some degree, the idea of the FI number is BS.” ([12:33]) The safe withdrawal rate and single ‘magic number’ for retirement are often based on dynamic, unpredictable factors—like inflation, life changes, and personal black swan events.
  • Paula aligns: Annual spending and happiness are dynamic: “Your spending every year of your life is dynamic…yet we often form these FI numbers by pulling a singular data point.” ([18:08])
• The “Peak-End” Experience
  Paula highlights psychological research:
  • “We tend to remember things based on two variables—the peak and how it ended.” ([21:58])
    Your feelings about your final job can shape your memory of an entire career, making enjoyment now especially important.

Memorable Quotes

• Joe:
  “The biggest problem [in retirement planning] was meaning—was mattering. Do I matter anymore? Am I making that impact that I used to make?” ([05:36])
• Paula:
  “You get to choose your job not based on its pay, but based on whether or not you want it. The underlying question is, what do you want?” ([11:30])
• On New Responsibilities:
  • Paula: “Sometimes with increased responsibility comes increased freedom… With great responsibility comes great freedom.” ([25:27])

Key Takeaways

• Shift focus away from money or societal pressure; prioritize meaning, autonomy, and impact.
• Don’t over-index on a single FI or ‘safe withdrawal’ number—the bigger picture (life, economy, personal evolution) matters.
• Choose your last years of work with intention, for both enjoyment and to set up positive memories.

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2. Finding Legit Learning for Put Options & Avoiding Scams

Listener: Amy
[29:59 – 41:05]

Core Question:

How can you find reputable, non-scammy courses to learn options trading (specifically puts)? Who can you trust, and how do you choose the right teacher?

Key Discussion and Insights

• Who, Not How
  Joe and Paula extol the value of “ask who, not how”—get recommendations from trusted people, not just Google or social media. ([32:00])
• Finding a Teacher
  • Paula suggests: Look up Rose Hahn, a podcast guest who is well-regarded (but she hasn’t taken the course personally). ([33:07])
  • Evaluate instructors through their free materials (newsletters, YouTube, podcasts) to see if their style and philosophy match your needs. ([34:56])
• Options as Tools—Not Just Gambling
  • Joe: “Options can be used in a very conservative way to make your portfolio less volatile… but on the other side, it gets into the area of gambling.” ([33:48])
  • Choose instructors who emphasize risk management and clear frameworks.
• Not All Teachers or Mediums Are Equal
  • Assess free content to check for depth, approach, and transparency.
  • Paula: “Once you ingest enough free material from someone, you understand the framework through which they view the world, their decision making matrix.” ([41:05])

Memorable Quotes

• Joe:
  “Ask who, not how… We’re a much, much, much better ‘who’ than Google.” ([32:46])
• Paula:
  “There are some people who use options to make your portfolio safer, and others who use it to make it riskier and to gamble… So how do you separate that out? I would start by looking at their free material.” ([34:56])

Key Takeaways

• Look for trusted, conservative, and transparent instructors.
• Vet teachers with their free content for fit and philosophy before paying.
• Embrace the “ask who, not how” mindset—seek out recommendations within your trusted communities.

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3. Growing a Real Estate Portfolio from 16 Units—Sell, Refi, or Hustle?

Listener: Ben from Cincinnati
[43:17 – 69:20]

Listener Situation Recap

• From handyman with no properties (2020: episode 243) to owning/managing 16 units (2026)
• Portfolio: Fourplex, multiple units, mix of self-management and professional management
• Seeking advice: Should he sell current units for a bigger multifamily? Continue incremental growth? Or hustle (wholesaling, starting new ventures) for capital?

Key Discussion and Insights

• Celebrate the Journey
  Paula: “You are now—you’ve grown from four to 16 [units]. You are right there. Six years later you’re doing the thing that you set out to do.” ([48:08])
• Eliminate Distractions—Cactus Business & Wholesaling
  • Paula is firm: “A cactus business is great for someone who is focused in that area. For you this would just be a distraction.” ([49:25])
  • On wholesaling: Only pursue it if deal access is your true aim—not just to accumulate a side job for income. ([52:00])
• Leverage and Lending Strategy
  • Use commercial banks for growth, not just hard money or private lenders.
  • Joe: Relationships with small/local banks are far more effective than large institutions:
    “I would look for community banks versus a huge bank with a name that you’ve seen on television ads.” ([57:36])
  • Paula: Only bring in a silent partner if it’s a perfect fit; wrong partners are worse than no partners. ([54:00])
• Preserve and Build Efficiently
  • Don’t cash out the current properties unless absolutely necessary—especially with highly favorable mortgage rates.
    “As you mentioned, 4 out of those 16 units have a 2.75% mortgage. Hold that one. That is gold in today's market.” ([59:38])
  • Focus first on getting to 20 or 30 units, not just gunning for 40. ([63:30])

Memorable Quotes

• Paula:
  “There is a certain level of risk that is mitigated when you so deeply know your properties.” ([59:38])
• Joe:
  “The power is always stepping through the door. Because now that Ben has stepped through several doors… all of a sudden, now he sees wholesaling might be an option… It gets more difficult because you see low hanging fruit… that end up just being shiny objects.” ([64:13])
• Paula:
  “First, do no harm. …Preserve what you’ve already built and then continue to grow.” ([63:30])

Practical Strategies and Cautions

• Protect existing assets and leverage your expertise.
• Only expand into new ventures if they closely align with your main business and skills.
• Build real relationships with local bankers for better borrowing power.
• Carefully vet any potential partners—don’t let urgency override fit.

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Through-Line and Final Thoughts

Throughout all three questions, a common theme emerges:
“What do you truly want? What energizes you, gives you meaning, and aligns with your skills—versus what looks shiny or simply pays more?”
Both hosts urge listeners to:

• Be intentional with job and business moves (especially near FI)
• Vet sources and teachers carefully in a world full of scams
• Avoid distractions—even lucrative ones—if they don't fit your primary goals and passions

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Notable Quotes by Timestamp

• Joe: “The biggest problem was meaning—was mattering.” ([05:36])
• Paula: “With great responsibility comes great freedom, and with that freedom … you’re more likely to enjoy it, not less.” ([25:27])
• Joe: “Ask who, not how.” ([32:00])
• Paula: “There is a certain risk that is mitigated when you so deeply know your properties.” ([59:38])
• Joe: “The power is always stepping through the door… but you start to see shiny objects that distract you.” ([64:13])

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Key Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------|--------------| | Melanie’s FI/Promotion Q | 01:37–26:14 | | Amy’s Options/Course Q | 29:59–41:05 | | Ben’s Real Estate Growth Q | 43:17–69:20 |

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Episode Tone and Closing

As always, the exchange between Paula Pant and Joe Salsihai is warm, insightful, and laced with humor and relatability. They blend deep behavioral finance wisdom with accessible advice and celebrate the journeys of their listeners, all while championing careful thought over prescriptive, black-and-white solutions.

Paula: “Thank you to everyone for tuning in to episode 700… and here’s to the next 700 ahead!” ([72:36])

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For more resources, podcast episodes, and the free book 'Escape,' visit AffordAnything.com.

Transcript

[Paula Pant]

Joe, if you were on the verge of retiring but you were thinking about taking another job, what would be on your mind? What would you want for your final job before you pull the plug?

[Joe Salsihai]

Oh, I don't know. Right now in my life, it's this one. But I think I would just think about what makes me happy.

[Paula Pant]

Well, we're going to peel back a few more layers of that onion in today's episode because our first question comes from someone who is about to retire but thinking about getting a bigger job with a pay raise and more responsibility right before retiring. And then in the middle, we're going to answer a question from a woman who is worried about scammer courses on the Internet. How do you avoid the scammer courses? And then at the end of the episode, we're going to talk to somebody who went from 4 units to 16 units. Well, I mean, technically everyone goes from 0 units first, so from 0 to 16. But the last time that we talked to this person, he had four, and now he has 12 more.

[Joe Salsihai]

Building a real estate empire.

[Paula Pant]

All of that is coming up right now. Welcome to the Afford Anything podcast, the show that knows you can afford anything. Not everything. This show covers five pillars. Financial psychology, increasing your income, investing, real estate, and entrepreneurship. It's double I fire. I'm your host, Paula Panta. I trained in economic reporting at Columbia. Every other episode ish, I answer questions from you and I do so with my buddy, the former financial planner, Joe Salsihai. What's up, Joe?

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, Paula, I am buckled in and ready to roll. Let's do this.

[Paula Pant]

Let's do it. We're going to start with our first question, which comes from Melanie.

[Melanie]

Hey, Paula and Joe, this is Melanie. I have a question for you about job advancement. There's a posting at my current job that they had posted previously that I didn't feel like I was qualified for and now they've reposted it because I guess they didn't get any good candidates that I think I might be qualified for it. However, it's about a $30,000 increase in salary. When I do the numbers and the math, I should be five in about four years and my pension vests in about six and a half years. So I'm planning on working six and a half years. Getting this $30,000 increase doesn't really move the needle for me on that four year five journey or that six and a half year pension vesting journey. So is it worth it to take on a new job with a lot more responsibilities and work when maybe it's not going to really impact my financial life that much. What should I be thinking about to take on a new job with new responsibilities? If money isn't really the primary reason for taking the job and I'm pretty close to five as it is, and I personally would like to retire early. I'm leaning towards not applying for it because, you know, my job isn't causing me a lot of stress now and I fear that this new position is going to add a little bit of stress to my life. Let me know what you think.

[Paula Pant]

Thanks, Melanie. First of all, congratulations on being so close to fi. And for anyone who's new around here wondering what that acronym stands for, Financial independence. The point at which your work becomes optional. You've got enough money that you don't have to work if you don't want to. And Melanie, it's clear from your question that you would like to retire early and you are about to have a portfolio that allows you to do that.

[Joe Salsihai]

That's so exciting.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. So huge congrats to you on being so close to this goal that I know you've spent years building towards.

[Joe Salsihai]

I think this is multifaceted diamond. I think there's so much to think about here. Paula, what was your first thought?

[Paula Pant]

Melanie, what I didn't hear you talk about in the voicemail are two attributes. Number one, what enjoyment would you get from this role? We know from research that the three qualities that make a significant impact in whether or not a person enjoys their job are mastery, autonomy and purpose. Number one, does this new role require a skill set that has the potential for the development of mastery? In other words, will you be using skills that you can develop, that you can master, where you can see your progress month over month or year over year? That's number one. Number two, will you have sufficient autonomy in your role? Can you make decisions on your own? Who has the decision making authority? Will you be micromanaged or not? Number three, is there purpose that actually dovetails? You know, I started this by saying there are two questions that I want to ask. The first is about your enjoyment of the role and enjoyment as a function, function of mastery, autonomy, purpose. The second question that I want to ask is really a furthering of that third piece, purpose. And so the second question I want to ask is what good will you do in the world through this role? If you can shed light on both of those questions and you don't have to tell me, these are questions for you to reflect on. Will you enjoy the role and will you make a Positive impact in the world through it. Those are the two questions that I think determine whether or not this is a good use of your time.

[Joe Salsihai]

I, I think it's an important point that you make because I've seen people retire from things that were clearly more than a job in somebody's life. It really was a great mission they were on. And because of societal influence, because of external factors, they really felt pressure to retire. And so when they left, filling that void, the Wall Street Journal did a wonderful story on this in mid January about the biggest problem in retirement planning is not the money, which is super important. It's part of what we do here. It's also not healthcare and solving that thing. Those two are super important. The biggest problem was meaning was mattering. They actually called it mattering. Do I matter anymore? Am I making that impact that I used to make? And now if I'm not making that impact, how do I make an impact in different ways, in really cool, fun ways? It's kind of telling that in Christine Ben's book on this topic back last fall, where she interviews a lot of retirement planning experts, Paula. She begins the book by talking about this very topic about mattering and about treating retirement. People think retirement's like a vacation. Every retirement expert tells you that's a mistake, treating it like a job. But a job you love, where you still set an alarm, you still get up at a certain time, doesn't have to be the same time. Could be a time that agrees with you.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

Your current job. Right. It's a job you love because you get up at 8 instead of at 6. You know what I mean?

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

You still set your alarm, you still, you still dress for it. You still show up every day. That's what. Looking at the law of large numbers doesn't work for everybody. But looking at these statistics about happy successful retirements, that more often than not, is what makes a successful retirement.

[Paula Pant]

There was actually a very, very funny post on social media. This was years ago. Somebody was retiring and they had read the advice. Oh, you should still have some type of a morning routine like you did when you were working. And this was a New Yorker who used to ride the subway to work. So he posted a picture of himself standing in his bathroom holding on to his shower curtain as though he was holding onto a subway pole. He was like, so for 15 minutes every morning, I just hold on to my shower curtain While scrolling through my phone.

[Joe Salsihai]

He gets the same feeling.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, it's perfect. Sometimes I'll just shake, you know,

[Joe Salsihai]

But I'M glad that we started here because it truly is, you know, if she's putting the money aside and I want to get back to the money because I don't think the money's as clear cut as, as she thinks it is. If it isn't about the money, it truly has to be about, you know, what our mutual friend Doc G calls little P Purpose.

[Paula Pant]

Right? And little P Purpose in his definition of it is not this big esoteric, I'm gonna change the world. I mean those high minded ideals are great, but on a little P purpose is on a day to day level, how do you be a great role model for the people around you? How do you provide training and mentorship to the people who look up to you?

[Joe Salsihai]

And what's funny is he even goes, well, I like where you're going with that, Paula. And I would 100% agree. He goes even smaller. It can be changing the goal from, you know, I roll my eyes when people say I want to golf every day in retirement. I heard that so many times when I was a fan. Oh, I'm going to golf. Well, just imagine going to the golf course five days a week for 30 years. At some point you're going to go, is, is this mattering? Is this at all? But if I change that to I'm going to perfect my chip shot so that I XYZ or I'm going to golf all my favorite courses along the eastern seaboard or you know what I mean, you put some definition around it. You clearly have an end in mind. You've taken this thing that ultimately is going to be this boring, non purposeful activity and you give it a little kick and giving it that little purpose to your golf can take it from a goal that makes me roll my eyes to a goal that makes me go, okay, yeah, yeah, I see that.

[Paula Pant]

Melanie, going back to your question, if you were to take on this new role or any other comparable new role, would there be purpose behind what you do? And that might be the impact that the job, the job's explicit role function makes in society. It might be internally with a team. The way that you improve internal operations, the way that you improve relationships inside of the organization, camaraderie with your co workers. Are there ways that there would be that element of purpose in addition, of course, to that mastery and that autonomy.

[Joe Salsihai]

I like the way that you played one side of this. Let's equally, Paula, play the other side of this because I know you can also play the other side of this. If that's not the Case sometimes people feel this pressure from people around them. The cool thing about being as close to financial independence as you are is there's huge power in saying no. Huge power in saying, you know, there's a lot of things that are going to give me purpose, that are going to give me meeting, make me feel like I matter. This ain't it. And when you do that, the way that you will sometimes light up inside in ways that surprise me, I'm like, well, everybody says I should do this, but then you say no. And then for goodness knows what reason, I'm skipping the mailbox tomorrow because I'm so happy that I'm not doing that thing. Can also Paula, be hugely uplifting, but only she knows that.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, Melanie, what's beautiful about the position that you're in right now is you get to choose your job not based on its pay, but based on whether or not you want it. So the underlying question is, what do you want? And I think that is, for many people, a difficult question to answer in the context of jobs, because for many of us, we start our adult lives looking at jobs from the framework of will this pay my bills? And so it can be. It's a new challenge to be able to look at a job and not ask the question, can it pay my bills? Because the answer is yes. And the answer is my bills are already mostly covered independently. And so then the question becomes, is it a fit? Yeah. Is it a fit?

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah. Can we talk about the numbers, though?

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, yeah, let's talk about the numbers.

[Joe Salsihai]

I think, to some degree. Ready for Joe's hot take?

[Paula Pant]

Oh, I love Joe's hot take.

[Joe Salsihai]

I think, to some degree, Paula, the idea of the phi number is BS. The phi number, I think, is BS I agree, because the phi number is the bleeding edge. And if we're talking about not retiring, but having a happy, successful retirement. And I've, as a lot of people know, I've been diving into these numbers the last few years. I become more and more solidified, in my opinion of the second you cross that line that is based on so many assumptions that blow in the wind, that while you may stay retired and it isn't going to be a happy retirement. So I think this mental game we play, where we read tons of blogs, listen to tons of podcasts, and they're all pontificating about safe withdrawal rate if we want to get into it in the most nerdy way possible. I think starting off with safe withdrawal rate is BS because the second we re safe withdrawal rate, we get these False conclusions that now I'm safe, which is not the case. It might be safe financially. It isn't safe if you want to be happy. And let me tell you why. We begin in our head then with black swan events. What are the black swan events? Let me give you one that happened. You and I before the pandemic. We never talked about inflation. We would flippantly, casually say, you know, 3% inflation. Put that in your plan. Just remember that. I know people tend to forget it, remember it. I don't think there's anybody in the afford anything community right now who will forget inflation.

[Paula Pant]

Right, right. Well, we told people to plan for 3% inflation. We never anticipated 9% inflation, which, if you recall in inflation peaked when was it 2021 or 2022. Inflation peaked at 9.1%.

[Joe Salsihai]

Crazy number. Crazy, crazy numbers.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

And it's funny. You see it at the grocery store and imagine that you just retired on the bleeding edge of your quote, safe withdrawal rate. And now you're like, oh, was it really safe? Was it not safe? Am I going to be okay? Do I got to change my way of living? And the worry factory begins. And let me tell you how this spins out of control. That then that inflation number, you're not the only one who's worried about it at the grocery store. People in stocks worry about it. People at Goldman Sachs worry about this. People on Wall street all worry about it. And guess what happens then? The stock market begins to gyrate in ways that as a retiree now who doesn't want to go back to work, makes you freak out more than you used to. People freak out anyway. But I'll tell you who freaks out is people that are on a set fixed income that they want to control. And then you begin worrying about government intervention. And let's just throw something crazy out there. I mean, nobody would ever do this. But let's say somebody decided to do tariffs. I mean, if tariffs happen, and then that makes me worry even more about inflation than I worry about the stock market. And then we have an AI compounding problem. Oh God, what's going to happen then? And then we have more government stuff going on and we have issues going on the Middle east, what's that's going to happen? And if I'm close to that safe withdrawal rate number, the thing I'm not going to be safe from is unhappiness and worry. I got to get as far away from. I don't got to get as far away. I mean, I know some people that listen to this podcast are going to worry so much that they build a. Build, you know, this massive amount of money that they're never going to spend.

[Paula Pant]

I was going to say, you're really making the case for just one more year syndrome.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah, I don't want that. But what I also don't want is to start with safe withdrawal rate. What I want to start with is what do I want to do in retirement and what makes me happy. We're talking about this job in terms of what makes you happy. So let's think about what is it? Because she said she's really excited about retiring, right?

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

If I were sitting Paula across the table from her, I would say, what is it that's lighting you up right now about retirement? Let's go through it and let's get granular. And then I would start putting numbers on those things. And then I would work backwards to is this safe? And this is then how I apply safe withdrawal rate. And then I see if there is a reasonable delta between these two numbers, the number that's my happy retire rate and this quote, unquote, safe withdrawal rate that science is telling me. And if there's a reasonable delta, then, listen, I'm always going to worry, right? I'm always going to worry. But then I go, but I don't begin with the bleeding edge. I begin with what's my lifestyle look like? And then I work backwards to safe withdrawal rate. And I don't know, Melanie, when you talk about your safe withdrawal number, which one you're working from, so I'm really talking to the community at large, much more than you.

[Paula Pant]

Right. And technically, she never said safe withdrawal number. She said FI number, but.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, she didn't. She said FI number, which is why I'm not speaking Melanie directly to you. Because if your FI number is the happiness number that I just outlined, then high five, Great, go do it, whatever it is. But in this community, especially with all of the social media crap that I see, people spend way too much time on safe withdrawal rate, which is fine, but not the place you start.

[Paula Pant]

Okay, so I have a Joe, similar take to yours, but it's a. The nuances are a bit different. The reason I don't believe in phi number in the way that it's traditionally presented is because if you were to map a person's spending across their life, spending is dynamic. Every year, your spending is going to be a little bit different based on not just broad macroeconomic influences like what you talked about, Joe, inflation, et cetera, but also the the details of your own life. There are some years you have higher medical bills. Some years you have big veterinary bills. Some years you would make discretionary choices like travel. Some years you move and incur moving expenses. So your spending every year of your life is dynamic. And. And yet we often form these phi numbers by pulling a singular data point, which is often. What is my spending? In the year in which I learn about phi, we pull this singular data point, multiply it by 25, and say, well, I guess this is the number I need. Not only has your spending been dynamic in the past, your spending in the future will also be dynamic in ways that you cannot predict. There are black swan events that. Joe, you mentioned macroeconomic black swan events. There are also many personal black swan events. What if somebody hits you with a lawsuit? Right?

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah.

[Paula Pant]

You know, what if a neighbor slips on some ice in front of your house and falls and has an injury and sues you for negligence?

[Joe Salsihai]

Because I have a friend who a drunk driver drove through their living room window.

[Paula Pant]

Oh, wow.

[Joe Salsihai]

Luckily, nobody was hurt. But just imagine the disruption to your life and all the things that happened, like things come out of nowhere.

[Paula Pant]

Right, Exactly. There are so many personal black swan events that could also happen. And, you know, in addition to black swan, there are ways that your priorities, your values, your definition of a happy or satisfied life that changes over time. And what?

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah, and we talk about the go go years, the slow go years, and the no go years. I mean, retirement is going to shift and I love this, that we can't take a single data point, which is why, you know, if you're going to have these big rocks during retirement, these things that you really want to do, we should list them. Like, we should have those on a timeline. We should totally, as much as we can identify those, we should have them. It's interesting because when you talk to retirees, they get this. Aha. Even people that worked in the industry. There's a woman I follow on TikTok, Jeannie, underscore retirement, who's recently retired, who shares her journey. Do you want to hear Jeannie, who's recently retired, Paula Makes the same point as a retiree that, that you just made. Check this out.

[Ben]

Or four years ago.

[Paula Pant]

And there's one thing I didn't realize about retirement until just recently. Retirement is episodic. There's different seasons to it. Now, of course, I know the go

[Joe Salsihai]

go years, the slow go years, the no go years.

[Paula Pant]

But I'm talking about even within the go go years, there's different seasons. I'm now in season three, it's well documented here, that season one, I didn't like, really like retirement. I retired and my expectation for retirement did not meet the reality. Season two, I call my TikTok era. That's when I took the TikTok and started making TikToks about retirement and started learning it wasn't just me that struggled. Now I know there's people that.

[Joe Salsihai]

And so she's going to continue going and I can give you the link policy, you can put in the show notes if you want. Even within these seasons. They're seasons, right? There's. It's so dynamic as you're saying, everything changes, your feelings change, even if you're ready for it. Like this woman, Jeannie thought she was ready for it and it turned out she wasn't as nearly ready for it mentally as she thought she was.

[Paula Pant]

I want to go back to, you know, your question is, is not about retirement per se, but about what comes before that. About the last six years of your career before you retire. And your question is around how do you find work that you enjoy and work that is meaningful when you know that that deadline is imminent? Because, and it's an interesting dilemma because when you're at the beginning or even the middle of your career, you're still building your career, there's a ladder or a path ahead of you and in front of you and so there's something to build towards. Whereas when you know that that era of your life is coming to a close, you don't want to start something that's a 10 year project because you know you're not going to be in the game for 10 years, but you also don't want to fritter away the final years. There's this notion in psychology called the peak end experience, which is that we tend to remember things based on two variables. One is the peak of something and the other is how it ended. And so, for example, when we think back to a vacation that we took, we remember two things about the vacation. We remember the peak of the vacation, maybe one particular happy memory, a great sunset, for example, or a great day at the amusement park. We'll remember that peak moment of the overall experience. And we also remember the way in which it ended. We remember the final day. And our feelings about the way in which it ended often have a disproportionate impact to our feelings about the experience as a whole. As you're thinking about a career that's about to come to a close, it's essential to find work that you enjoy that characterizes those last few years of your working life. Because later in life, when you look back on the era in which you were a full time worker, your feelings about your final job are psychologically speaking. We know this based from research. Your feelings about that final job are disproportionately going to affect your feelings about your entire working career. So if you end your career by closing out a job that you really enjoy and you retire from something where you're like, you know what, I actually, I love the work. I love my colleagues. I had fun chatting with my co workers in the office every day. You know, I have some, some great memories from that. It was time for it to come to a close. It was time to move on. But wow, what a great senior year. You know, it's the equivalent of having a wonderful senior year of high school or a wonderful senior year of college. You know, when you can close that out and say it was time for it to, all good things must come to an end. But wow, what a great final chapter. If you can do that, you're going to have fond memories of your entire working career. And what's beautiful is that you don't have to choose a job based solely on the pay. So in your message you asked about responsibilities. I'm less concerned about the responsibilities per se and more concerned about your ability to have autonomy, to have decision making authority.

[Joe Salsihai]

Right, your feelings about the responsibility.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, exactly. Because sometimes having increased responsibilities is liberating. Because sometimes with increased responsibility comes increased freedom. With great responsibility comes great freedom. Right. Did you just coin that when that happens? Yeah, someone much wiser said it before me, although it was the reversal of that. But with great freedom comes great responsibility and vice versa. With great responsibility comes great freedom, and with that freedom, that freedom is a synonym for autonomy. And if that's the case, then you're actually more likely to enjoy it, not less.

[Joe Salsihai]

Regardless, I think she's in an enviable position. Being able to make this decision is a fantastic place to be.

[Paula Pant]

Absolutely. Congratulations, Melanie. And please call us back and let us know what you decide to do. We're going to take a moment to hear from the sponsors who make this show possible and allow us to bring you this at no cost to you. When we return, we're going to hear from someone who is worried about scammers online. How do you know who you're learning from? Because choosing your teachers is incredibly important. And then at the end of today's episode, we're going to hear a success story From a caller who went from four units to 16 units and now wants to continue growing. So if you started a business, you have dealt with the administrative nightmare that is payroll and benefits and hr. It's really tedious and boring administrative work, but it's necessary. Fortunately, Gusto makes it easier. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one remote, friendly, and incredibly easy to use. So you can pay, hire onboard, and support your team from anywhere. I made my first hire in, I think roughly 2017, and I've been using Gusto ever since then, which is when I brought on employee number one. They handle things like automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, workers comp 401k. They have these automated tools that are built right in, like offer letters and onboarding materials. You get direct access to certified HR experts. It's very easy to switch to Gusto. You just transfer your existing data to get up and running and you don't pay even a cent until you run your first payroll. Try gusto [e-mail] Paula and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free [e-mail] Paula One more time. Gusto.com Paula G-U-S-T-O.com Paula P A U L A Life can change fast. Maybe suddenly you need a home office. You used to commute to an office and now you're working from home. And so you need space for that. Maybe you need a nursery, maybe you got a dog and you now you want a bigger backyard. So when you're searching for a place. Realtor.com is the pro's most trusted app. Realtor.com has over 500,000 new listings each month. I use it to get a sense of what's out there on the market. In fact, I like to look at multiple cities. So I'll check out what's happening in Indianapolis and Columbus, in Raleigh, in northwest Arkansas. It's kind of fun just to see what's out there. And the more you look at new listings, the more you start to get familiarity with the market and you start to see how things are changing over time. So find your next dream home. Start searching now. Download the realtor.com app today. Pro's most trusted app based on August 2025 proprietary survey. Over 500,000 new listings every month based on average new for sale and rental listings from July 2024 to June 2025.

[Joe Salsihai]

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[Paula Pant]

Welcome back. Our next question comes from Amy.

[Amy]

Hi, Paula. I really enjoy your show and I've learned a lot and I wanted to ask a question about something I heard you talking about in the interview we did last February with Colin Roesch. You had mentioned something about people investing on their own versus taking courses or classes. And that's exactly what I have been trying to do. I am having a hard time trying figuring out what information or courses out there might be scams and what isn't. And I was hoping that you would mention some names of some courses or classes or even instructors that you might recommend specifically. What I'm looking to learn about is understanding puts, how they work, knowing when to apply them, what to look for, all of that. And it's really hard to find people who will share that information about how they learned it or where would be a good place to learn. And I don't mind paying for a real legit comprehensive training course where I can ask questions and get information back. Um, and I know that I can google some of this stuff and I have, but it's just not the same as talking to somebody who will give you a better understanding of things and also give you information that you don't even know to ask about. Thank you so much for your help, Amy.

[Joe Salsihai]

Thank you so much for the question. And before we handle it, there's one thing at the end I really want to shine a light on, Paula, which I learned way too late in my career. I've mentioned it in the past, but this is Amy doing the thing that I learned too late, which is I did a Google search on it, but I thought it was better to ask someone.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, I love that. I noticed that line too. And I actually, I was thinking, I'm like, man, I want to write that line down because that is so important.

[Joe Salsihai]

The actual line that I learned, the way I learned it was ask who not how.

[Paula Pant]

Right? You've. Yeah, you've said that many times. In fact, I read the book who not how after I heard you say that line so many times.

[Joe Salsihai]

It is a fantastic lesson that I learned way Too late. And Amy, I love the fact that you called in with this because while we don't know you, it's actually better to ask someone that you know who's an expert in the area. Paula and I certainly know a lot of the right people that we can shine a light on. We can tell you more about it. We can give you context based on the fact that you're in the afford anything community. So while it's not the we're not your best who, we're a much, much, much better who than Google, right? Far better who than Google, right?

[Paula Pant]

And Amy, you said it well when you talked about how sometimes there are questions that you don't even know to ask. You have unknown unknowns and that you know, the benefit of a great teacher is that they can make you aware of those unknown unknowns.

[Joe Salsihai]

So let's talk about some of the unknown unknowns, Paula.

[Paula Pant]

So I will say options trading is not my thing, but I do know Rose Hahn, who is a previous guest on this show. Rose Hahn teaches a course on options trading, calls, puts all of that is in her course. I have not taken the course personally. I am also not an expert on options, so I cannot personally vouch for the course itself. But I do know Rose. She's been on the show. I've met her several times. She is well respected within the personal finance community. That is the one specific name and course that I can give you.

[Joe Salsihai]

And to everyone who's wondering the same, should I be interested in options? The issue when you get into options trading is that while options can be used in a very conservative way to make your portfolio less volatile, you can use them as insurance. So I often don't agree with people going, ooh, options, that's risky. Options can make your portfolio a lot less risky if you use them in a way where they are locking in gains or they are insurance in case your portfolio goes down, you're going to pay for those. Options are not free, but you can use them like an insurance policy. So they can actually be very, very conservative. But on the other side, it gets into the area of gambling a lot. And when I see a lot of the courses out there on options, and I'm sure Amy's already seen this, which is why she called in, you get these options traders who are using options more like a gambling tool than they're using them to make your portfolio safer.

[Paula Pant]

I'm glad you brought that up, Joe, because to broaden this out and make this applicable not just to Amy, who wants to learn about options but to anyone listening who wants to learn about options, anything, how do you determine who's going to be a good teacher? Well, these days, anyone who is teaching courses online is going to have a lot of free information online. And so the first thing that you want to do is recognize a. Not all teachers are created equal. They're not all the same, both in terms of their style and more importantly, in terms of their philosophy, their approach. There are some people, like Joe, to your point, some people who use options to make your portfolio safer, and others who use it to make it riskier and to gamble. And so how do you separate that out? I would start by looking at their free material. And every person who teaches this online is going to have free material. Now, some people present their material in different formats. Some people are better at text, so they've got a newsletter or a substack. Some people are better at video, so they've got a thriving YouTube channel. Some people, like me, are better at audio. So while this podcast is also on YouTube, our real strength and history is as an audio podcast. So you'll find us on Spotify or Apple podcasts, you know, so not everybody presents information through the same mediums. But find the people who teach the thing and then listen to them and see if you jive with their approach and their philosophy. I can tell you, for real estate investing, one of the ways that I stand out is that I teach a path of real estate investing that emphasizes the valuation of the underlying asset as opposed to emphasizing the cash on cash return, which is the leveraged return that that asset provides. And while that might sound like splitting hairs, I assure you, once you go down that road, you understand why that is so essential and why that approach. The philosophy that I have is so unusual because the vast majority of people who teach rental property investing, specifically residential investing, have really drunk the cash on cash Kool Aid. And I haven't. And I actually caution against that. And that makes me different in the world of people who teach residential rental investing. But my students have an approach that emphasizes cap rate.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, and it's interesting because you can take that back. Two options, which is there are two ways to look at real estate. There is protect your downside, make sure that this is, at the very least, an investment that's going to do no harm. Right. Which I believe is your approach versus the. The gambling aspect, which is, hey, real estate. They ain't making more real estate, Paula. So we're gonna.

[Paula Pant]

Well, I hope they're making more.

[Joe Salsihai]

Geez, we're gonna. Well, they're not making more land.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, they're not making more fast enough. That is true.

[Joe Salsihai]

There's no more land coming around though.

[Paula Pant]

Oh, there is. Look at Singapore, look at Dubai there. They are making more land.

[Joe Salsihai]

Okay, all right.

[Paula Pant]

They're making artificial land now.

[Joe Salsihai]

I need to, I need to back off that. So now that they're by, they're not making more oceans. I don't know what do you do? But you know my point. They're selling the potential upside, they're selling the dream. And the dream is great, the dream is fine. But at the very least, you're talking about do no harm. And I think when you learn about options, specifically learning how you can use them as a defense mechanism is a fantastic place to start with options. And then you see not only the opportunity of using them as a way to make more money faster, you also, once you understand using them as a defensive mechanism, you also understand then the inherent risk of using them as a weapon to make more money faster. I don't know Rose at all, by the way. I know her reputation in the community, which seems to be very solid, very conservative and very thorough, which is good. But I've never interacted with Rose.

[Paula Pant]

She's great. We met in person. She came out to New York and came to our studios. We did a face to face interview. She's exactly like. If you watch her YouTube videos, she's exactly like you would imagine from her YouTube videos. Very genuine.

[Joe Salsihai]

That's great.

[Paula Pant]

Specifically for again. And I have not taken her options trading course, so I cannot speak to it from any kind of. I do not have any personal experience with it. But watch our interview with her. We will link to that in the show notes. And check out not just for her, but for anyone who you're thinking about learning from. Check out their free material online. Do a deep dive into their free stuff. And if you like their philosophy, their approach, their way of thinking, you know, once you get, once you ingest enough free material from someone, you understand the framework through which they view the world, their decision making matrix. You know, some people like this show because we're all about nuance. We're all about questioning the premise of questions. We're all about peeling back the layers of the onion and exploring things and looking at issues through a prism. There are some people who love our show, afford anything because we do that. There are others who say, you know what, I don't want that. Just tell me what to do. And for the people who want something that is prescriptive, this is not the show for them because we don't give quick, black and white prescriptive advice is the type of thing that you're looking for, then this is not the brand for you. And that's for anybody who's thinking about learning from us. If what you're looking for is prescriptive, you know, this is good, this is bad. I am the authority, and everyone must listen to what I say.

[Joe Salsihai]

Wait a minute. I'm not doing that, all right?

[Paula Pant]

There are other voices out there that do that. That's not what you're going to find at Afford Anything. And once you listen to just a few of our podcast episodes, that becomes pretty apparent. So check out the free material. And kudos to you for asking who, not how. We are going to take one final break to hear from the sponsors who make the show possible. When we return, we're going to hear from someone who originally called in in February of 2020 and he has called back with an update. We're going to hear that next. This episode is brought to you by Indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed sponsored Jobs to find the right people with the right skills fast. It's a simple way to make sure your listing is the first candidate. C According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs have four times more more applicants than non sponsored jobs. So go build your dream team today with Indeed. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply.

[Joe Salsihai]

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[Paula Pant]

Welcome back. Our final question today comes from Ben.

[Ben]

Hey Paul and Joe. This is Ben from Cincinnati, and I was inspired to write in with an update. You answered my question on episode 243. I've been listening since it was a money show and I bragged family and friends how I was on my favorite celebrity show. I had asked how to grow from 4 units to 20 units when I last wrote in. You suggested a path for me was to level up quickly. I'm now at 16 units. I manage seven units and hired a property manager for nine units and in town an hour away. I've used the BRRRR method on each property. Portfolio value of $1,000,075,000,000 Loans at a million dollars Equity at $678,000 Portfolio Gross rents at $217,000 NOI at $138,000 Net rents at 68k Cap rate at 8% Retirement funds My Roth IRA at $143,000 Question 1 How do I grow my portfolio? Should I do the fast route and sell off all 16 units as a down payment and reserves for a larger multifamily like a 40 unit? Or should I keep going and try to pick up a 4 unit or 10 unit each year? Or should I try to use a portfolio to pay down current debts issues? I have a loan at 2.75% on my four unit. It's hard to find a large multifamily or four unit at a discounted price. I haven't reached my fi number. Question 2 How do I get the funds for my down payment from an ex Properties leveraging up last year emptied my reserves. I could take out additional cash at my 6 unit refi but I'm hesitant to eat away at the cash flow. I think I could refill my reserves by starting another business. I could take the cash generated as a down payment from my next multifamily. One idea is starting a wholesaling business. My goal would be to do one house per month and net 10k. One benefit is I could pick the cream of the crop of the single families to add to my portfolio. My problem is finding cash on unlentable properties. I also have a friend who has a cactus business that nets 250k and he's hoping to bring me in on it. But it's not quite my wheelhouse nor does it synergize with my other business. I could also sell furnaces. I have a wholesaler who sells them at $780 and I can charge 3 to 6k installed. Unfortunately, I'd need to find an H vac tech to do the installs while I handle the business side. Question 3 How do I get institutional money? I was close to getting a traditional bank and local semi government agency to lend me money for my purchase of my six unit. But they didn't like how much money I showed on my tax returns. I ended up using a hard money lender at 4 points and 12% because I couldn't find another lender in time to close the deal. Ouch. Should I continue with private money and hard money lenders? Try to find an institutional bank or take on a silent partner? Thank you guys for all that you do. I've been listening to you since I was a handyman with no money or properties. I can't wait to write back to you with an update when I'm at 40 units.

[Joe Salsihai]

He just set the next bar. Paula.

[Paula Pant]

Wow Ben, I am so impressed that progress Ben that you've made starting from a handyman with no properties to an investor with four units, which was your position at the last time that you called in In February of 2020 to today, 16 units. Oh my goodness. Wow. Huge. Congratulations. I am so proud of your progress.

[Joe Salsihai]

It's so amazing.

[Paula Pant]

Can we just take a moment to appreciate Ben, when you called in, this was in episode 243. Can we climb into the time machine and reflect back on the question that you asked

[Ben]

five years ago? There was a home invasion, I had a gun pulled on me and went off inches away from my head. My life flashed before my eyes and realized I was not happy with what I was doing, which was property management for a Mason Moyed company. Kind of reoriented myself, long story short, bought a 4 Plex for 48,000, put 100,000 into it, did all the work myself, rehabbed it, got a cash out refi for 266, so got 200k out of that. And now I am level 5 financially independent, have investors and looking to repeat the process with my second property here. And you got any tips on growing a real estate investment business from 4 units to 20? I'd love to hear about it. Thanks so much.

[Paula Pant]

And what I love Ben is you asked about how to grow from four units to 20 and you are now you've grown from four to 16. You are right there. Six years later you're doing the thing that you set out to do.

[Joe Salsihai]

I like you calling that out Paula, because I feel like in most of our lives we spend the majority of our time chasing the horizon and the horizon continually moves and we don't reflect on as we're chasing the ground that we've covered.

[Paula Pant]

Right.

[Joe Salsihai]

And when you truly take just a second and you look at how far up whatever mountain you've climbed like this Incredible mountain of adding all these units and gaining all this knowledge over this. This time, it's phenomenal. And now staking out the next mountain is. It's great.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. I am so proud of everything that you've done and tremendous, tremendous congratulations to you for all of that work. I know it's been a tough road. I know many things have changed in the last six years. And that persistence and dedication and work that you've put in, it's incredible. So let's address your questions. You've proposed a lot of ideas. Let me start by eliminating the things that I like the least. Number one, the cactus business, it's outside of your primary wheelhouse. I believe this would just be a distraction. I guess I am getting prescriptive here because that is. That is a hard.

[Joe Salsihai]

No, we don't do prescription. Except when we do.

[Paula Pant]

Except for when we do. A cactus business is great for someone who is focused in that area. I believe that for you this would just be a distraction. That's number one. Number two, you talked about the possibility of wholesaling and you mentioned two benefits to that. Benefit number one is that you would make money. You talked about making about $10,000 per deal. Benefit number two is that you would get first position, prime access to deals. Now, those are two very different benefits. And I think benefit number two, being in a position in which you are accessing deals, you're looking at everything that comes across your desk and you're spotting the best ones. I think that is a compelling reason to do so. I think the other benefit, 10,000 per deal at one deal a month, that's actually, that's a huge workload for a wholesaler. One deal a month is a lot. It's just. Especially when you're. You're also managing properties, one deal a month is a lot to be able to pull off.

[Joe Salsihai]

That's funny, because while I'm not an expert in this area, I know from a base level how to advise people on whether to even get involved and help them find the right who's. My son is deeply involved in real estate and I get a front row seat to see his empire grow, which is very close to the same size. Ben's is like. It is very similar. This could have been a call from my son and he's done some wholesaling work. And I'll just tell you as a close observer, Paula, the very first thing I felt when I heard him talk about that, it just felt like a job, like another job. And I'll tell you that Nick My son has wholesaled some properties, but he sees it more as side hustle income. That happens when it happens. If he finds a deal and he finds a person, it's an easy way for him to bring in a few extra bucks or sometimes a lot of extra bucks. Right. With frankly, not a lot of work. And he's more focused on what you're focused on, which is the opportunity. The opportunity to see lots and lots and lots of deals.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

And to pick from a wider basket for himself.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

That, I think, is the power. Much more than giving yourself another job.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. I. A thousand percent agree, Ben. I think if you want to go into wholesaling, do it only for the purpose of finding deals. Don't do it for the purpose of making money. Do it for the purpose of finding deals. And rather than one deal per month, if you do one or two deals per year, but you're looking at deals constantly, which means that you can close on the gems. Because necessarily, if you're looking at a ton of deals, there's going to be a bell curve. Right. And when there's a bell curve distribution, that means that when those beautiful outliers come around, you're going to be positioned to see the outliers. And that's the reason to do it. So cool. If you close one deal a year at 10k, awesome. Two deals a year, you make $20,000 a year doing this. Cool. But the only reason to actually do it is to find those outlier deals for yourself. So Cactus. No, wholesale only if you do it for the right reason. Furnace business, maybe. I'm open to hearing more about the furnace business. I won't discard it outright the way I would with the Cactus business. The issue with the furnace business is that you soon get to scheduling technicians and drawing up invoices and making sure you have good processes and good operations. And it's. While I like that the business is aligned along the supply chain, it also is a completely separate business. I guess to summarize, Cactus. No furnace, Maybe. But it might end up being a distraction. And wholesale. Yes, but in a much more modified manner and for a completely different purpose. And not for the purpose of making money making money on the wholesale deal. I should say not for the purpose of the immediate payout. I want to turn to the hard money loans that you're getting. You said you're borrowing money at 12% and 4 points. That is a very expensive cost of capital. And you have 16 units under your belt. So you have a very, very solid track record. I Think with the experience you have with the 16 units, with all of that real estate that can secure loans. Rather than spending your time trying to wholesale or run a furnace business, I would spend your time building relationships with commercial bankers. I think you can get much better capital. You're an experienced real estate investor, you're an experienced multifamily operator. You're going to be a repeat customer, a repeat borrower. So I would spend your time doing that. I would also. I'm open to the idea of you finding a partner because if you, if you do want to scale from 16 to 40, bringing in the right partner who can provide more down payment funds could accelerate that. So rather than spending your time in the J O B just over broken of trading your time for money, I'd build the commercial banking relationships. I'd look for potential partners but not be wedded to necessarily getting a partner because you don't want to get the wrong one. Getting the wrong partner is worse than having no partner at all. So only bring on a partner if you are sure that this is going to be a great fit. Otherwise, keep the 2.75 mortgages right, keep the existing properties, start building relationships with bankers, start looking for partners and then rebuild your cash reserves. That's the other piece of it. I want to see you having reserves for at least 12 months or more.

[Joe Salsihai]

We keep bordering on things that I actually know something about and the commercial banking and going for a loan with commercial banking is an area that I do know a lot about and can speak to which is that the right relationship is out there, but you're going to have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find it. It is going to be incredibly difficult. I have friends that are working with operations that are far bigger than yours and the commercial banks really want from you information and protection against you. Failing that, it might be hard, really, really hard to swallow. I have a friend who is the CFO for organization that owns 28 dental centers. So a lot of dentists, Paula, work for this conglomerate. They're in the conglomerate and as they've been building them up, the founder, the entrepreneur, the CEO, his reason for bringing on my friend as CFO was specifically to get his personal assets untied from the operation so that he could get money without having him personally go down with the ship if things go poorly. And you would think that with the tens of millions, close to hundreds of millions of dollars that they are bringing in that that wouldn't be a problem. It's a huge problem. It is a, it's a huge thing. And no banker wants to be the banker that signs off on that. And talking to other people who are entrepreneurs in real estate, finding that, just finding that commercial bank. I think you've got to start with smaller banks over large banks. I would look for community banks versus a huge bank with a name that you've seen on television ads. I would look for bankers that have a little bit more autonomy in the community than ones that frankly have none. And their job is to just get you to fill out the application. They send it to an algorithm in Manhattan.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, there are a lot of those. Fill out the application people. There are too many of those.

[Joe Salsihai]

There's just far too many of those. The whole system has really gotten that way where it's too algorithmic. I have a lot of friends because my wife is in healthcare who work here locally. And there's one local bank that will do loans for doctors in the community because of the fact, Paula, they are a community bank and they know the community. They know the doctor's position in the community. So the people that work in these clinics can get much easier loans because of the fact that these people. But. But the fact that I don't see that anywhere makes this bank almost a unicorn. But in every community, there's some bank that's trying to do this, that's trying to get the local edge, which is why, because of the fact that I think that's going to be a long, grueling process. What you advise, Paula, which I think is the right way to go. Begin building relationships with bankers. Don't begin with the big boys. Eliminate all those immediately. Because this is already going to be a long process. I think you're going to shorten your path to success by starting with small banks.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. And start with the people you can meet in person. Especially in a world of remote meetings in person. Relationships are stronger. I realize I got so caught up in the cactus furnace Wholesale question. I didn't address your first question out of the gate, which is for this portfolio of 16 units that you have, do you. Do you cash them out or not? My recommendation is keep them. Number one, these units are an 8 cap. Right. That 8 caps are hard to find, as you know. Number two, you already have a strong sense of the condition of every single one of these units. You already have a very strong sense of how much longer the water heaters are going to last, how much longer the roof is going to last. I mean, you can learn all of that about new units, but, you know, because you've owned and operated these units for many years now. You know the decisions that have been made. You know the condition that it's currently in you. If there are surprises, you've caught those surprises by now. So there is a certain level of risk that is mitigated when you so deeply know your properties. And when you transition out of that and switch to new properties, there's higher variance, there's more room for surprises, and that's okay. You can have higher variance if the potential higher returns are worth it. But I mean, are you going to find something significantly better than an 8 cap? I don't know. Think an 8 cap sounds pretty darn good, I guess, depending on the risk profile of where these are located in. But it sounds as though you're happy with what you are already holding and your only reason for wanting to trade them in is to provide fuel to grow. And if that's the primary driver, I think you can provide that growth fuel in other ways without getting rid of what you currently have. Plus, as you mentioned, four out of those 16 units have a 2.75 mortgage. Hold that one. That is gold in today's market. You asked if you should continue using hard money lenders. Only if you have to. I think they're fine. As a last resort, if you can find a good private lender that will give you something slightly longer term with a more friendly rate, that would be better. And then commercial banking and, or a partnership, a silent partner would be, I think, the best. So, yeah, I feel like a broken record a little bit, but focus there.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, can we, can we talk about hard money for just a moment?

[Paula Pant]

Yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

Because my son has dealt with this as well and other people. But it's easier for me to reference what Nick is doing than other people that I know. I would treat the hard lender relationship the same way that I would treat the commercial banking relationship. Paula, when I heard the hard money numbers that he's working with. My son is working with hard money lenders as well, but his numbers are more equitable. They're still ugly, but they're more equitable than the numbers that Ben's working with. So I would be pursuing hard money lending at more agreeable terms as well. Because if you're stuck with hard money lending, I heard that number and I thought, oh, wow, that's a lot. And it's always going to be a lot. But I think there's hard money lenders out there that will loan you money for less of a profit in their pocket. They're still going to make a lot of money, no matter what you do. But it doesn't have to be the situation that you're in now. What am I saying, Paul? Am I saying make your hard money softer?

[Paula Pant]

I suppose you are.

[Joe Salsihai]

I think I am. It doesn't have to be granite.

[Paula Pant]

You know, I feel like we could unpack this for hours because there are so many questions inside of this. But the overarching strategy, if I could unify everything that we've talked about, is focus. It's keep your eye on the objective, which is, number one, preserve what you've already built first, do no harm. And number two, in the context of that, then continue to grow from 16 to 40. But even before you get to 40, before you can get to 40, you need to first get to 20. And after you get to 20, you then need to get to 30. I would focus on first getting to 20 or 30.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, and I like what you're saying about focus overall, because let's talk about the natural progression of getting good at something and getting into the thing. People are afraid to go through a door because they feel like it closes other opportunities. But the power is always stepping through the door. Because now that Ben has stepped through several doors and gained a lot of knowledge, look at what's happened all of a sudden, now he sees wholesaling might be an option. He's explored hard money lending. He's looking at graduating to a whole different type of unit structure than he has now. Like he has graduated to a whole host of new opportunities. And now the problem then goes to Paula. And it's funny how we can circle this back to the beginning of this episode. The problem goes back to making sure you don't say yes to things that are not along the path that really is. In the case of, in the case of Melanie, it was saying yes to things that might not light you up is a mistake. In the case of Ben, it's the fact that Ben now is seeing and is becoming more conversant with and potentially even becoming a semi expert in all these different areas that it gets more difficult because you start seeing low hanging fruit on lots of different trees that end up just being shiny objects that distract you. So the further down the rabbit hole you go, the more opportunities you actually get. And people are always afraid to go down the rabbit hole at all because they see all of these opportunities. And you know what's going to happen is he says no to the shiny objects. That's going to unlock more opportunities that are much more in his wheelhouse. Than wholesaling, which you and I both think is a distraction.

[Paula Pant]

Well, to be clear, trying to earn 120,000 a year as a wholesaler. 10,000amonth.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yes. Yeah, Correct.

[Paula Pant]

I think trying to earn 120,000 a year as a wholesaler is a distraction, but I think having those deals come across your desk is great.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, then it's a tool.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. Yeah. Then it's a tool. And I also don't mean to discourage you from it, because I think what I'm trying to say with the wholesaling bit is don't get discouraged if the annual income from the job component isn't $120,000 a year, because that's not the true value of it. If it happens that you actually end up making good money from it, great icing on the cake. But the true value is the deal flow. Jo, you and I, when we were talking off camera, you used an expression that I really liked. You talked about doing the thing you love versus doing things that you like, and how we all face these choices around doing things we like, but that if we crowd out our schedule with too much of doing things we like, it then ends up coming at the expense of doing the thing you love. And I think there's a bit of that happening in this question.

[Joe Salsihai]

I think the danger point for all of us is when we get to that 70% on an activity where it doesn't suck, it's 70% great. And so we keep doing it because it's not egregiously bad, so we don't eliminate it. And I'm finding more and more that either notching up those 70% pieces of my life to make them 100% or eliminating those is where I'm able to find the time for the things that I really love.

[Paula Pant]

So look at that. There was actually a through line between Melanie's question and Ben's question, and it comes back to the allocation of time. Right. And the allocation of energy. That's funny. I didn't think there was going to be a through line when I was first looking at these questions, but there.

[Joe Salsihai]

No, you did. We knew all along. Ben, she's trying to be modest. We had this plan from the beginning. This is how the pros do it. We've got it.

[Paula Pant]

And, Ben, congratulations once again on everything that you've built. I can't wait to hear from you when you reach. Let's not even wait until 40. When you reach 25, call us back. Or 24, you know, if you get two, four plexes call us at 24 or 23. Well, no, I'm just thinking you get two fourplexes. Cool. That's eight more. That's a. That's a normal number. There aren't a whole lot of five units out there. Four or less, you're residential, and then at five or more, you're commercial. And once you're commercial, why would you stop at 5? You know, you'd have 6 or 8 or 10 units in that building. You know, how's he gonna get to 25? Like two fourplexes and a single family home? That's unlikely, you know, so call us when you hit 24. Well, Joe, I think we did it again.

[Joe Salsihai]

It is funny how it truly became a circle, even though they were completely different questions. But there was a through line for

[Paula Pant]

more of your circular logic. Joe, where can people find you if they'd like to hear more of that?

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, it's funny that Amy talked about courses because we just reopened the waiting list for our course that actually doesn't go off till the start of next year. But it's a closed, small cohort of people. We call it the Stacked Success sessions, where I guide you through not options, but building your financial plan over 10 lessons that we use. My book, Stacked, that I wrote just a few years ago, that is very evergreen to walk you through step one, step two, step three. So I was a financial planner for 16 years. And if you want to learn how to build your own financial plan, even if you're using professionals, which we even talk about how to choose the right professionals as part of that course, dive into the waiting list because we'll take names from the top of the waiting list first before the bottom. When we reach out to people in late November, early December, and then the classes start in January, So it's stacking Benjamins.com success.

[Paula Pant]

Wow, you are lining this up for 2027.

[Joe Salsihai]

How about that?

[Ben]

Wow.

[Joe Salsihai]

Get in early because every year we have a great cohort of people and it's super fun, but I feel like the more we do it, the more the thirst is there for it, which is good to see.

[Paula Pant]

Incredible. Excellent. Well, thank you to everyone for tuning in to episode 700. 700. This is a. I can't believe you.

[Joe Salsihai]

Why did you wait for the end?

[Paula Pant]

I know, I know.

[Joe Salsihai]

To tell people that, well.

[Paula Pant]

Well, people can read it in their favorite PODC playing app.

[Joe Salsihai]

I'm not a reader. I didn't read it.

[Paula Pant]

Joe, it's written literally in our Google Calendar invite. We're recording episode 700, not a reader.

[Joe Salsihai]

That's so awesome.

[Paula Pant]

Paula well, yes, thank you to everyone who has been part of this journey along the way to Ben who was on episode 243 and is now part of episode 700.

[Joe Salsihai]

Can you imagine Repeat customers Repeat customers.

[Paula Pant]

Thanks to all of you who have been part of the 700 episode journey. And here is to the next 700 ahead and if you've enjoyed this journey, please subscribe to our newsletter affordanything.com Newsletter Please open your favorite podcast playing app. I learned an interesting stat which is about one out of every five of you who are listening. Do not follow us in any podcast playing app you are not following. One out of five of you do not follow us in Apple Podcasts or Spotify or Pandora. So please open up every app that you use to listen to podcasts and hit the follow button. Because one out of five of you has not done that and the other four out of five of you have. So big thanks to you if you have done that and if you have done it, please open that app again and leave us up to a five star review. Thank you for being part of this 700th episode. I'm Paula Pant.

[Joe Salsihai]

I'm Joe Salsihai and we will meet

[Paula Pant]

you in the next episode in 701. No actually Joe, you're going to be on 702 so you and I will meet them at 702.